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View Full Version : Monica vs current top 10 & future slam champions


selesrules
May 9th, 2003, 03:27 PM
Monica leads #3 Kim Clijsters.............. 1-0 (3-0 if you count Hopman Cup)
Monica leads #4 Justine Henin............ 4-3
Monica leads #6 Amelie Mauresmo....... 3-2
Monica leads #7 Jennifer Capriati........ 9-5
Monica leads #8 Chanda Rubin............ 5-0
Monica leads #9 Daniela Hantuchova... 1-0
Monica leads #11 Jelena Dokic............ 4-1

With the exception of the Williams sisters & Davenport, Monica IS a favorite over everyone else. She's right now at #12, but without injuries she would be ranked in the top 5 like usual. GO MONICA! :worship:

MarcusRock
May 9th, 2003, 03:33 PM
Steffi leads #1,000,000,000 selesrules ....... 1-0


http://www.angelfire.com/rock3/marcusrock/Bslap-sr-x3.gif

DA FOREHAND
May 9th, 2003, 03:34 PM
You seriously believe that? You're kidding right? Monica needs to get fit. I would hate to see Monica play any of the players in the current top 6, outside of A.O.

I think your list would be alot more interesting if you listed the dates of those matches.

Typical Selestial, to take one small snapshot of Monica's career to try and make a point. Example..even a 4-3 H2H doesn't suggest domination over your opponent.

spencercarlos
May 9th, 2003, 04:35 PM
:o He forgot to say that Seles has lost
last match vs Dokic
last match vs Capriati
last 3 matches vs Henin
last 2 (completed)matches vs Amelie . Amelie retired injured in Dubai this year after one set.

We all know what Seles is capable of produce, but you can take last year`s statistics and Seles has not been doing that great, in fact she has lost to a couple of players ranked below her, that is rarely to see in Monica. She has room for a last huraah in a slam (Rg 2003).... Can she get fit?

Messenger
May 9th, 2003, 04:46 PM
This guy really gives Monica and Monica fans a bad name. Thank god he doesn't like any of the players I do.

wongqks
May 9th, 2003, 05:07 PM
wait... selesrules is just giving us a stat, no need to jump all over him for that just coz of what he said before

SerenaSlam
May 9th, 2003, 05:16 PM
wait... selesrules is just giving us a stat, no need to jump all over him for that just coz of what he said before
yes but in his stat, he says monica IS the favorite.

That means you should me saying, when Martina was playing Venus and Serena, she "was" the favorite against them, even though she had lost like the last 2 or 3 she played to them.

Players can get better, and eventually start to beat their opponents they were loosing to. I think Monica can consistenly still talk out like Dokic, Hantuchova and Clijsters and Henin, but Im not sure about Amelie, Jennifer, Davenport etc...

selesrules
May 9th, 2003, 05:39 PM
:o He forgot to say that Seles has lost
last match vs Dokic
last match vs Capriati
last 3 matches vs Henin
last 2 (completed)matches vs Amelie . Amelie retired injured in Dubai this year after one set.


:rolleyes: First of all, Monica was bitch-slapping Mauresmo before she got injured, the bottom line Monica won. As for the others, Capriati barely edged Monica 7-6 in the final set, and Monica has always had an edge in that rivalry including the 2 previous meetings. Dokic barely edged Monica in 3 sets, and Monica has always had a big edge in that rivalry including the previous 4 meetings. Those 2 losses were more like upsets. That just leaves "Henin" that you can make a decent point with from ALL the list. Monica is still a favorite over all the others and that's a fact.

SerenaSlam
May 9th, 2003, 05:42 PM
:rolleyes: First of all, Monica was bitch-slapping Mauresmo before she got injured, the bottom line Monica won. As for the others, Capriati barely edged Monica 7-6 in the final set, and Monica has always had an edge in that rivalry including the 2 previous meetings. Dokic barely edged Monica in 3 sets, and Monica has always had a big edge in that rivalry including the previous 4 meetings. Those 2 losses were more like upsets. That just leaves "Henin" that you can make a decent point with from ALL the list. Monica is still a favorite over all the others and that's a fact.
but also you should realize, that they would not have had to make that "decent" point if you (seeing you bring it up) already knew about it yourself and went on ahead and brought it up, you would have avoided, all the bickering towards you :)

instead you say monica has everyones number and is the favorite against the entire top 10 with the exception of willies and davey :rolleyes:

Keith
May 9th, 2003, 05:45 PM
Only one person in that list has a grand slam and Monica's record against Jen the past few years is pretty much even (with Jen winning the important matches)

selesrules
May 9th, 2003, 05:46 PM
but also you should realize, that they would not have had to make that "decent" point if you (seeing you bring it up) already knew about it yourself and went on ahead and brought it up, you would have avoided, all the bickering towards you :)

instead you say monica has everyones number and is the favorite against the entire top 10 with the exception of willies and davey :rolleyes:

People are trying to put down my WHOLE post. The only thing that you have a decent point with is HENIN. But Monica is still the favorite over ALL the others. So stop acting as if my post is nonsense. I did also say that it's if Monica was without injury.

spencercarlos
May 9th, 2003, 05:58 PM
wait... selesrules is just giving us a stat, no need to jump all over him for that just coz of what he said before
Selesīs influence on the tour after Australian Open 2002 has gone backwards. Here are her matches vs Top ten players

starting in Tokio PP 2002
Martina Hingis L 7-6 3-6 6-3
Henin-Hardeene W 6-4 6-3
Dokic L 6-3 3-6 6-4
Mauresmo L 6-4 6-3
Hingis L 6-3 6-2
Clijsters W 4-6 6-3 6-3
Capriati L 4-6 6-3 7-6
V Williams L 6-4 6-3
Henin-Hardeene L 7-5 7-6
V Williams L 6-2 6-3
Davenport W 3-6 7-6 6-3
V Williams L 7-5 6-4
Rubin W 4-6 6-4 6-2
Davenport L 6-7 6-1 6-2
Henin L 4-6 7-6 7-5
Henin L 6-2 6-4

Correction made!

Note: Rubin was not top 10 in Madrid 2002, neither Hantuchova at Roland Garros 2002. I also did not count Amelieīs retiring in Dubai this year.

W/L record 4-12 in a year and four moths period.
This pretty much tells the story...
Anyway i feel this Roland Garros, Monica coming in as fit as ever, and she can surprise anyone. Venus maybe not playing, Serena just coming from a recent loss, Kim from a month lay off after being tired some of tennis, Daniela and Dokic struggling all over the place, this could be a chance!!!! At least for me.

Keith
May 9th, 2003, 06:05 PM
Can't count the win against Hingis, cuz she wasn't even top ten anymore last August, so that would be 4-12

selesrules
May 9th, 2003, 06:07 PM
YOU ALL NEED GLASSES

You counted the Williams sisters and Davenport, I DID NOT. Did you even read my post? I said she's the favorite over Kim Clijsters, Justine Henin, Amelie Mauresmo, Jennifer Capriati, Chanda Rubin, Daniela Hantuchova, Jelena Dokic because she has winning records against them. And I even agreed to take off Henin because Henin has turned around that rivalry lately. But the others HAVE NOT, some of them might have scored a win recently, but Monica still has the edge overall. Your list has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with my post since it includes Venus/Serena/Lindsay and does not include other players that I mentionned.

Keith
May 9th, 2003, 06:07 PM
And I'm thinking that Rubin was not in the top ten either when she beat her, so 3-12.

selesrules
May 9th, 2003, 06:12 PM
Everyone or the huge majority would agree that if without injury Monica meets either Capriati, Dokic, Rubin or Hantuchova. Monica would have the edge like I said. She is and always will be the favorite against them.

If Monica meets Mauresmo it would be split, but Monica did win the last meeting and has a winning record so I'm not inventing anything. As for Kim, she has NEVER beaten Monica in 3 tries.

So that just leaves ONLY Henin who without injury Monica wouldn't have an edge over right now. That's the ONLY thing wrong with my post so stop acting as if it's all nonsense. GET LIVES.

Leena
May 9th, 2003, 06:14 PM
Steffi leads #1,000,000,000 selesrules ....... 1-0


http://www.angelfire.com/rock3/marcusrock/Bslap-sr-x3.gif
Let's see that again.

spencercarlos
May 9th, 2003, 06:18 PM
YOU ALL NEED GLASSES

You counted the Williams sisters and Davenport, I DID NOT. Did you even read my post? I said she's the favorite over Kim Clijsters, Justine Henin, Amelie Mauresmo, Jennifer Capriati, Chanda Rubin, Daniela Hantuchova, Jelena Dokic because she has winning records against them. And I even agreed to take off Henin because Henin has turned around that rivalry lately. But the others HAVE NOT, some of them might have scored a win recently, but Monica still has the edge overall. Your list has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with my post since it includes Venus/Serena/Lindsay and does not include other players that I mentionned.
I just wanted to point out her performance vs top 10 after Australian Open 2002 to now.

If you take out Davenport and Williamses. Seles has a 3-6 record vs Them. Maybe 2-6 depending what was Rubinīs rank in Tokio PP 2003.

irma
May 9th, 2003, 06:20 PM
amelie won two of the last three matches against monica and in the last match amelie had to retire.

doesn't sounds like monica is the covinced fav against her!

Keith
May 9th, 2003, 06:23 PM
selesrules- with all due respect to other monica fans, Monica was a great champion, but her time is over. She may play for the next year or more, but she will no longer be able to add to her grand slam collection. She might even score a top ten win or two before she retires, but you are really delusional if you think that Monica is the favorite against players like Kim, Momo,Justine and Jen. She might stand an outside chance, but all of those players have been doing things that Monica stopped doing years ago.

SerenaSlam
May 9th, 2003, 06:23 PM
Monica not injured, still struggles against these players. Its hard to say she is the "favorite going it" knowing everyone you mentioned is way fitter and faster than monica. If all players are "on" and playing well, they would all go three sets, with the exception of Hantuchova Dokic and Rubin monica would win in straights, but everyone else (believe it or not) have gotten better since 2002, and are capable of haning in there with monica.

When it comes to Venus, Serena and Lindsay, everyone playing well, moinca will still go down in 2 easys sets (something venus does very well against her)

Keith
May 9th, 2003, 06:25 PM
Enough of the "if monica is fit and healthy"...If Monica wanted to be healthy, she would be fit. She is not healthy because she simply refuses to be fit. So it is her own fault.

Keith
May 9th, 2003, 06:28 PM
selesrules, it burns you up to no end that Monica has (at times) wasted the last half of her career by not giving the effort required to be the best player that she can be and you are having a hard time dealing with that. You post her head to head against players that have already passed her by in the hopes that you can relive some of the glory that she has not seen in 7 years.

angele87
May 9th, 2003, 06:33 PM
selesrules, what about you post dates for all the matches included in your first message then maybe this thread would have a bit of credibility (sp?).... sure Monica has a winning record against most the current ton ten because all the current top tenners are pretty young and have only gotten better in the last few years so you can't say just because Monica beat so and so two years ago that she would beat them now cuz a lot of things have changed since then. Monica, as much as you don't want to admit it, isn't as good as she once was... she's not even as good as she was two years ago. And the vast majority of the top ten have gotten better in the last two years... So you have Monica going one way ( down) and the top ten players going another (up) and I think that's where the problem lies in your first post because it doesn't point that out. If you just expressed yourself more clearly and made sure there was no bias or, could I say, tainted facts, in your post you wouldn't get the backlash that you have in this thread and a lot of others you start. It's clear to anybody that you weren't trying to tell the whole story here and that's why so many people are pissed off. Personally, I find it funny that somebody smart enough to operate a computer is naive ( and I use that word giving you the benefit of the doubt) enough to not understand why some people have a problem with you!

rfs1999
May 9th, 2003, 06:36 PM
Go Monica!

GoDominique
May 9th, 2003, 06:39 PM
Go Monica!
LMAO, you really crack me up. :D Too funny.

irma
May 9th, 2003, 06:42 PM
lol;) (this has nothing to do with this thread btw)

hingis-seles
May 9th, 2003, 06:43 PM
Enough of the "if monica is fit and healthy"...If Monica wanted to be healthy, she would be fit. She is not healthy because she simply refuses to be fit. So it is her own fault.

How does that apply? You can be the fittest person on this planet and still get injured. When she sprained her ankle in Australia, what did that have to do with fitness? And how can you work on your fitness if you are injured?

That's exactly Monica's problem. She's usually had some injury or another since her return. The shoulder problems in 1996. The stress fracture in her foot which caused her to miss six months in 1999-2000. Then there was another stress fracture/reaction in 2001 which caused her to miss play from March-July. Then she missed all the US Open warm-ups and the fall season last year due to yet another injury and there was also the foot problem that caused her to skip IW/Miami/Amelia Island. There was also a broken finger in 1997. And that's just a bit of it.

Keith
May 9th, 2003, 06:51 PM
How does that apply? You can be the fittest person on this planet and still get injured. When she sprained her ankle in Australia, what did that have to do with fitness? And how can you work on your fitness if you are injured?

That's exactly Monica's problem. She's usually had some injury or another since her return. The shoulder problems in 1996. The stress fracture in her foot which caused her to miss six months in 1999-2000. Then there was another stress fracture/reaction in 2001 which caused her to miss play from March-July. Then she missed all the US Open warm-ups and the fall season last year due to yet another injury and there was also the foot problem that caused her to skip IW/Miami/Amelia Island. There was also a broken finger in 1997. And that's just a bit of it.

I would be willing to bet that none of the other top players have been so injury prone. It's a medical fact that people in top shape can push their bodies farther than normal with less risk and can bounce back after injuries much quicker. Monica has been unable to do either. I'm not ragging on Monica, Instead I'm just pointing out what is obvious to me.

selesrules
May 9th, 2003, 06:53 PM
Ok, so Mauresmo now is the favorite against Venus because she won the last meeting. Chanda is also the favorite against Serena. Stop being idiots. Read my previous post and most imporantly the stats posted in the first post, it's CLEAR what I'm posting. You guys are changing the subject. Just because Henin beat Davenport the last time doesn't mean that she's now the favorite against her. The same goes for Dokic vs Monica or Capriati vs Monica. Monica has a WINNING record against all those who I've mentionned and the only one tha despite a winning record should be taking off that list is Henin because she won the last 3. But the rest have either won the last one in a VERY close fashion (upset!) or have lost or have never beaten her, but either way they are all BEHIND Monica overall in the rivalry. So everything is LOGICAL except for Henin. If not, then Mauresmo is the now favorite against Venus.

The Crow
May 9th, 2003, 06:55 PM
selesrules, if you can't handle people discussing and questioning your initial post maybe you should have posted it in the Seles forum.

Hurley
May 9th, 2003, 06:57 PM
:o He forgot to say that Seles has lost
last match vs Dokic
last match vs Capriati
last 3 matches vs Henin
last 2 (completed)matches vs Amelie . Amelie retired injured in Dubai this year after one set.

Bingo.

selesrules
May 9th, 2003, 06:58 PM
They are not discussing, they are bashing me. I posted FACTS and I even agreed about Henin, but they are still not reading my posts and adding Williams or eliminating someone because of 1 match. JEEZ

Diya
May 9th, 2003, 06:58 PM
A healthy and fit Monica CAN beat ANY player on ANY given day and thats a fact . ( and yeah it holds true for most players in the top 20 )

selesrules
May 9th, 2003, 06:58 PM
Hurley, read my reply to that post.

Hurley
May 9th, 2003, 07:01 PM
Selesrules, that's like saying Monica has won 9 Slams and Serena has won 5, so Monica is the favorite vs. Serena.

Use your noggin.

irma
May 9th, 2003, 07:03 PM
I am sure he believes that but to his credit he is a fan so it's alright;)

The Crow
May 9th, 2003, 07:05 PM
A healthy and fit Monica CAN beat ANY player on ANY given day and thats a fact . ( and yeah it holds true for most players in the top 20 )

lmao :D

Hurley
May 9th, 2003, 07:06 PM
So then Margaret Court is a favorite over Monica?

The past and the present are two separate things. One can't just use raw numbers to make outlandish statments; you have to put them in their proper context. Fortunately, everyone else in this thread seems to realize that, so why I'm bothering, I don't even know. I must be bored. :D

irma
May 9th, 2003, 07:08 PM
go marge;)

selesrules
May 9th, 2003, 07:08 PM
Let me explain AGAIN to those who are still confused.

Monica leads #3 Kim Clijsters.............. 1-0 (3-0 if you count Hopman Cup)
KIM HAS NEVER BEATEN MONICA. EDGE: MONICA.

Monica leads #4 Justine Henin............ 4-3 MONICA HAS A WINNING RECORD BUT MONICA HAS LOST THE LAST 3. YOU GUYS ARE RIGHT. EDGE: HENIN

Monica leads #6 Amelie Mauresmo....... 3-2
MONICA HAS A WINNING RECORD AND WON THE LAST MEETING. EDGE: MONICA

Monica leads #7 Jennifer Capriati........ 9-5
MONICA HAS A WINNING RECORD AGAINST CAPRIATI AND EVEN THOUGH CAPRIATI WON THE LAST MEETING 7-6 IN THE THIRD, IT WAS AN UPSET. MONICA HAS THE EDGE OVERALL. UNLESS YOU PEOPLE CONSIDER THAT MONICA HAD AN EDGE AGAINST DAVENPORT AFTER LAST YEAR'S LOS ANGELES???? EDGE: MONICA

Monica leads #8 Chanda Rubin............ 5-0
CHANDA HAS NEVER BEATEN MONICA. EDGE: MONICA

Monica leads #9 Daniela Hantuchova... 1-0
DANIELA HAS NEVER BEATEN MONICA. EDGE: MONICA

Monica leads #11 Jelena Dokic............ 4-1
MONICA HAS A WINNING RECORD AND EVEN THOUGH DOKIC WON THE LAST MEETING IN 3 SETS, IT WAS AN UPSET. MONICA HAS THE EDGE OVERALL. UNLESS YOU PEOPLE CONSIDER THAT MAURESMO HAS NOW AN EDGE AGAINST VENUS BECAUSE SHE WON THE LAST???? EDGE: MONICA

I also added in my first post that it's "without injury". If you still think that my post is nonsense even though I posted facts, then YOU NEED HELP.

GoDominique
May 9th, 2003, 07:12 PM
Monica doesn't have edges. She's well-rounded.
Daniela on the other hand ...

MarcusRock
May 9th, 2003, 07:15 PM
How does that apply? You can be the fittest person on this planet and still get injured. When she sprained her ankle in Australia, what did that have to do with fitness? And how can you work on your fitness if you are injured?

That's exactly Monica's problem. She's usually had some injury or another since her return. The shoulder problems in 1996. The stress fracture in her foot which caused her to miss six months in 1999-2000. Then there was another stress fracture/reaction in 2001 which caused her to miss play from March-July. Then she missed all the US Open warm-ups and the fall season last year due to yet another injury and there was also the foot problem that caused her to skip IW/Miami/Amelia Island. There was also a broken finger in 1997. And that's just a bit of it.I always wondered who you were. Now I know ........
http://www.angelfire.com/rock3/marcusrock/Excuses.gif


;)

The Crow
May 9th, 2003, 07:17 PM
But the question, selesrules, is what's your point?? Monica has the edge over Kim, does this mean that if Kim and Monica were to meer tight now, Monica is more likely to win?? Is this what you mean?

selesrules
May 9th, 2003, 07:20 PM
My point is that if MONICA IS NOT INJURED ON AND OFF FOR THE LAST YEAR, she would be right up there in the top 5 as the stats show. Sure now she's injured and #12 and probably not the favorite, but if she was NOT injured and she was playing normal like the rest, she would be up there like she always have in her whole career. My first post was VERY simple and showed many obvious things, even my dog who's barking right now understood it and is saying to many of you a big: ---> :rolleyes:

Diya
May 9th, 2003, 07:21 PM
You've gotta give it to that guy .....his thread almost always attract a lot of attention ;)

hingis-seles
May 9th, 2003, 07:22 PM
ROTFLMAO@ Marcus Rock! ;) :D

You seem to be totally missing my point. I never attributed any of her losses to injury. I believe that if a player is healthy enough to step on the court and complete a match, then there are no excuses. I just stated that she's injury-prone. I never said anywhere in my previous post that she lost because of injury. That was just you indulging in your favourite form of exercise. Jumping to conclusions!

;)

MarcusRock
May 9th, 2003, 07:24 PM
even my dog who's barking right now understood it and is saying to many of you a big: ---> :rolleyes:I think he's barking because he wants to be put out of his misery for having to live with you. LOL.

selesrules
May 9th, 2003, 07:25 PM
I think he's barking because he wants to be put out of his misery for having to live with you. LOL.

I don't even have a dog, it's a figure of speech :p

MarcusRock
May 9th, 2003, 07:28 PM
I don't even have a dog, it's a figure of speech :pSo it was really your stanky toes barking, right? LOL.

The Crow
May 9th, 2003, 07:32 PM
My point is that if MONICA IS NOT INJURED ON AND OFF FOR THE LAST YEAR, she would be right up there in the top 5 as the stats show. Sure now she's injured and #12 and probably not the favorite, but if she was NOT injured and she was playing normal like the rest, she would be up there like she always have in her whole career. My first post was VERY simple and showed many obvious things, even my dog who's barking right now understood it and is saying to many of you a big: ---> :rolleyes:

Oh yeah the "if" reasoning :rolleyes: Well sorry to break it to you, she has be injured, she has be playing on and off for the last year, so she is number 12. You may not like it (and a lot of people with you), but her results over the last 12 months bring her on spot 12, so that's what she's worth atm. Facts! Much more importnat than ifs.