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View Full Version : Why Venus is number 2...and the most deserving ;)


SerenaSlam
May 5th, 2003, 09:48 PM
Do you realize, that i believe since Australian Open 2002 (quarters) Moscow (R16)Venus has been in all semis or finals? I know its very hard to realize and surprising (not to us williams fans) but look at the Queen results!

2002
Gold Coast (Final Won)
Australian Open (Quarters Loss)
Paris (Final Won)
Antwerp (Final Won)
Dubai (Semis Loss)
Miami (Semis Loss)
Amelia Island (Final Won)
Hamburg (Final Loss)
Roland Garros (Final Loss)
Wimbledon (Final Loss)
Standford (Final Won)
Sandiego (Final Won)
New Haven (Final Won)
US Open (Final Won)
Moscow (R16 Loss)
WTA Championships (Semis Loss)

2003
Australian Open (Final Loss)
Antwerp (Final Won)
Miami (R4 Loss)
Warsaw (Final Loss)

That is 13 Finals for Venus, 3 Semi-Finals. Although yes she doesn't play around the average of everyone else on the WTA, when she does play, she wins, and she consistenly wins and gets to the semis or finals. This is why Serena is the number 1 player in the world. Doing the same as venus, but even better than what Venus has accomplished. Venus also won 8 of those 13 finals. And 4 of them to the hands of Serena, and the other to the hand of RETIREMENT to Amelie. Venus has shown, she has the WTA's number right now besides Serena when she is playing her game and well. In Finals, her only mental block has been to the hands of Serena and then Kim Clijsters in Hamburg (who she later on went to beat the next time they met, and is has 3 wins in a row against her right now :))

The Queen has still got it. A lot of people on the Boards are starting to doubt her. But haven't you noticed? Venus continues to win when Serena is out of the picture? Had Venus not injured herself, i truly believe she would've won that warsaw title. She had won that Set playing bad tennis against Amelie's good tennis. So if Venus had picked it up, she could've pulled the win out still. But that is besides the point. The Desire is still there in Venus, and im really sick and tired of people writing venus off like she is starting to fall back.

Kim Clijsters, a lot of people argue with me on why she WAS DESERVING OF HER NUMBER 2 RANKING, but to me its clear she wasn't. Her results are no where comparable to Venus, her talent and ability is no where comparable to Venus.

Points wise, Kim Clijsters should be considred the number 1 points system player in the world. She plays a shit load of tournies, therefore collects so many many points. But still that isn't enough to overthrow Venus. Untill she gets to some Grand Slam finals, wins some matches and tournies over Venus/Serena, then maybe just maybe she is deserving of being Credit over Venus Williams. But right now, Venus has been far more superior than Kim Clijsters.

A lot is said of Williams Fans putting down Kim Clijsters. Call it what you want. I call it a case of the truth hurting your feelings. For Kim really isn't no where near as good as venus, and only got to number 2 b/c of Venus. And to say Venus got number 2 back b/c of Kim is wrong. Venus got that number 2 back, and added points to secure it. Even if Kim where to play Berlin and Rome, and say get enough points to pass Venus, she will wouldn't be considered in My opinion number 2, for Venus was out the picture. Had she been in those tournies, there would be no chances for Kim to even look at the possibility of number 2.

CJ07
May 5th, 2003, 09:55 PM
All Hail The Queen!

Yeah I was About To Say That.

Venus either wins, loses to Serena, or gets injured

Mad-About-Venus
May 5th, 2003, 10:04 PM
Thank you SerenaSlam, good work.

I also :worship: to Venus. She is the one and only one winning or losing. She is still the Queen.

Always :hearts: Venus.

tennisIlove09
May 5th, 2003, 10:11 PM
This isn't a new thing. Check out the stats since WB 00

WB 00--WIN
Stanford 00--WIN
San Diego 00--WIN
New Haven 00--WIN
US Open 00--WIN
Sydney 00--WIN
Linz 00--Runner Up
Aussie 01--SF
Nice 01--SF
Indian Wells 01--SF
Miami 01--WON
Hamburg 01--WON
Berlin 01--3rd
Paris 01--1st
Wimbledon 01--WON
Stanford 01--QF
San Diego 01--WON
New Haven 01--WON
US Open 01--WON
Gold Coast 02--WON
Aussie 02--QF
Paris 02--WON
Antwerp 02--WON
Dubai 02--SF
Miami 02--SF
Amelia Island 02--WON
Hamburg 02--Runner up
Paris 02--Runner up
Wimbledon 02--Runner up
Stanford 02--WON
San Diego 02--WON
New Haven 02-WON
US Open 02--Runner up
Moscow 02--2nd
LA 02--SF
Aussie 03--Runner Up
Antwerp 03--WON
Miami 03--3rd
Warsaw 03--Runner Up

In my counts, that's 6 events in about 4 years she's lost QF or earlier. Correct if wrong

CJ07
May 5th, 2003, 10:18 PM
thats darn impressive!

selesrules
May 5th, 2003, 10:24 PM
No.2 is very nice. But you Venus fans are becoming sooooooooooo excited about it, it just shows that you realize that no.1 is out of reach. Otherwise, you would think that No.2 is good but you'd want Venus to be no.1. But she can't, that's why you make it seem as no.2 is soooooooooo incredible. Nobody saids "hey I'm no.2!!! I'm soo good and this soo incredible!". People say "hey I'm no.2, I'm not fully satisfied, I want to be no.1! The best!". But see you Venus fans know that it will be impossible and that's why you are so excited about the no.2 spot, otherwise you would not be obsessing about it.

And do not bring up Monica into this, she's not in her prime like Venus is.

tennisIlove09
May 5th, 2003, 10:26 PM
No.2 is very nice. But you Venus fans are becoming sooooooooooo excited about it, it just shows that you realize that no.1 is out of reach. Otherwise, you would think that No.2 is good but you'd want Venus to be no.1. But she can't, that's why you make it seem as no.2 is soooooooooo incredible. Nobody saids "hey I'm no.2!!! I'm soo good and this soo incredible!". People say "hey I'm no.2, I'm not fully satisfied, I want to be no.1! The best!". But see you Venus fans know that it will be impossible and that's why you are so excited about the no.2 spot, otherwise you would not be obsessing about it.

And do not bring up Monica into this, she's not in her prime like Venus is.

Nothing is out of reach. Serena started 2002 ranked around #10...anything can happen. You sound almost bitter....

selesrules
May 5th, 2003, 10:32 PM
all I'm saying is that the obsession of Venus fans over the no.2 spot in the last few days saids a lot. It's like "venus is the real no.2", "wow venus is no.2", all these posts show that this is what venus fans are aiming for because they know that no.1 is impossible. Nobody is fully satisfied with "no.2" but Venus fans have now realized that this is the best they can aim for and that's why they are sooooooooooooo excited about it in every post.

joao
May 5th, 2003, 10:47 PM
Well Selesrules ... you're right and you're wrong at the same time! you're right when you say that it is not satisfying to see Venus stuck at #2 for almost a year now but you're wrong when you say that #1 is out of the reach ... rankings are just a mathematical issue. If Serena doesn't win at least 1 of the next 3 GS, the #1 ranking will be up for grab. Venus will have a real shot at it if she keeps playing at the level she's playing right now (without injuries of course). Kim's chances are little smaller bc of the high number of tourneys she plays (she always has to do better than her 18th best tournament to start adding).

I think Serenaslam wanted to show that Venus deserves her #2 ranking but also that she's not vanishing and still is playing like the #2 in the world. This feeling that Venus is over comes from the fact that she hasn't played much this year and lost early in Miami ... but she did reach 3 finals out of 4 tournaments played. And that's pretty amazing!

selesrules
May 5th, 2003, 10:50 PM
I'm just saying that the way Venus fans are acting towards the no.2 spot shows that they have lost hope. Sure Venus can become no.1 again, but I doubt Venus fans believe this, otherwise they wouldn't have posted about a 1,000 posts on how "venus is no.2 and how incredible this is".

cheeky
May 5th, 2003, 10:54 PM
I'm just saying that the way Venus fans are acting towards the no.2 spot shows that they have lost hope. Sure Venus can become no.1 again, but I doubt Venus fans believe this, otherwise they wouldn't have posted about a 1,000 posts on how "venus is no.2 and how incredible this is".
i feel its just natural,i mean she has just moved up in the rankings,any fan of any player will create a thread when there favorite has moved up, i mean there are many people who they know there favorites will never be number 1 but still post when they move up!!!

selesrules
May 5th, 2003, 10:57 PM
yeah, but it's becoming an obession and very excessive.

WtaTour4Ever
May 5th, 2003, 11:00 PM
Selesrules ....you make a very good point! I never really understood the fascination of the rankings and "true" "real" etc for anything past #1. However, I do think that for some it matters only b/c it is guarantee that they will be on seperate sides of the draw.....at least thats my only concern....but then again I think maybe a WS semi-s might be in need.

SJW
May 5th, 2003, 11:18 PM
the girl has made her 45th final at 22 and she hardly plays

u can find more than one better player than her at the moment?

SerenaSlam
May 5th, 2003, 11:31 PM
and let me tell u a thing selesrules....

it ain't about the muthafuckin obession of Venus being number 2. What it is about is, lettin it be known, that clearly venus is number 2, and there is none other out there right now, physically, mentally, or athleticlly able to challenge venus for number 2. its all about you all telling us how Kim trying to get number 2 recognition that she IS NOT DESERVING OF.

Venus is number 1 material as well. But as you can see, from those stats we showed you, it wouldn't make sense to tell you fucks that "Venus is more deserving of Number 1 at these numbers" when you can take Serena Williams numbers 2 those, and clearly show that they are much better than Venus' and right now Serena is deserving of Number 1. But we can do that against everyone else on the tour and compare to Venus' b/c besides serena, there is not one other player out there that can even come close to those kinds of stats Venus has! That is why we say, venus deserving of number 2, not 1!

Right now, by the numbers and stats, serena is WAY more deserving of Venus, seeing she has played 5 straight slam finals and won 4 out of 5! And not only does she win the slams, but she wins the tournies as well!

Something else for you to take the fuck in selesrules, don't come in trying to tell someone something you "think" we are thinking in our minds, or think we are coming up with. No one said we were obsessed with talking about Venus and the number 2 ranking. What it is all about is the sheer fact, that so many of you on this board, are trying to put Venus down many many times, b/c she has lost 4 straight slams (but take to note she continues to win the tournies). There is no better player out there besides Serena to Venus. If anything, you all should be putting down everyone below Serena and Venus, b/c they haven't shown yet that they can come out and beat a healthy and on form williams (but I think we all know that Williams healthy and "on" their games, will be the winner every time) They haven't shown over the past year that somone not named williams can win a slam. They haven't shown jack shit. The only thing they have shown are the following:

1. They can only Challenge the sisters if they are OFF
2. They can only get wins from Injury (take note the sisters play through the match injured and loose. Tell me who else does this?)
3. They can only get wins from RETIREMENTS
4. LAST BUT NOT LEAST, FATIGUE!

The entire wta tour rely on these things going into matches. But when it comes to Venus/Serena, they don't rely on their players playing bad, or playing good, or if they are injured. Going into all their matches, its ALL about their games, not their opponents. Like it has been said over and over again, its not in their opponents hands, there is nothing they can do about almost all the shots coming off Williamses racquets.

jenny161185
May 5th, 2003, 11:42 PM
ofcourse Kim can challenge for the number two ranking she was there last week! Capriatis the real number 2 anyway :wavey:LOL

Anyway I agree that both Venus and Serena have amazing tourny records as do hingis and davenport and many other greats but saying that all williams loses have come from fatigue or injury is just disrespectful ----- the sisters have lost a good few matches playing well you know :rolleyes:

MarcusRock
May 5th, 2003, 11:51 PM
1. They can only Challenge the sisters if they are OFF
2. They can only get wins from Injury (take note the sisters play through the match injured and loose. Tell me who else does this?)
3. They can only get wins from RETIREMENTS
4. LAST BUT NOT LEAST, FATIGUE!I know you're a Williams fan and all as am I but this list of yours sounds strikingly similar to something that Mr. Excuses might compile. Who is Mr. Excuses? Glad you asked.

http://www.angelfire.com/rock3/marcusrock/Excuses.gif

angele87
May 6th, 2003, 01:33 AM
There's something called respect SerenaSlam... ever heard of something like that?? If you had, your little truth hurting your feelings comment would never of been made. There's a nice way of saying something mean and then there's the I'm gonna be a bitch and rub it in your face kind of way of saying something mean and there lies my problem. And before you even try and turn the respect thing back on me I have never nor do I plan to post about the whole ranking situation because there's no point arguing about that.

And you should look in the mirror before you post some of the things you do. If you don't want us Kim fans getting upset about your so called truth maybe, just maybe, you shouldn't start freaking out after posters like selesrules who are only calling the truth as they see, much as you are. An opinion is just that, an opinion and not a fact therefore nobody's opinion is more valid than anybody else's. We can all make arguements for our point of view but what are the chances that nobody is going to come up with an arguement against it?

~|Naomi|~
May 6th, 2003, 01:56 AM
Well said Angele :)

But the way she is reacting to Venus being number 2 just shows one thing, she realises Kim is a threat to Venus holding the number 2 rank, as much as she wouldn't like to admit that.

You can say all day how Venus is more deserving, and I will tell you once again, out of the two who holds the bigger title...... KIM, yes the season ending champs and the tier 1 of Indian Wells.
You can also say how Kim plays sooo many tournaments, hello she has just taken a whole month off, I can think of a lot of other top players who play more than Kim does. If Venus doesn't want to play that many tournaments that is her right, just as it is Kim's right to play as many tournies as she wants, for at the end of the day, the rankings count the 17 best results, so they not only promote quality but also quantity. Kim could play 23 tournaments are year, and lose in the first round of all of them, therefore producing quantity, and noone would bother with saying 'she palys so many tournaments' . But the fact is she does well in the majority of them, and as a result people say she plays to much.

Cariaoke
May 6th, 2003, 01:58 AM
sifting through all the BS, Venus is and has been the most consistent player since 2000. Serena only started being consistent last year because she saw Venus' example just like Venus saw Serena's example in '99. they motivate each other, kumbaya and all that sisterly stuff.

Kim scheduled more while Venus scheduled less. I like Kim but she's on the second shelf, for me, while Venus and Serena are on the top shelf. She played so much and had to take a break her damn self.

I'm not sure if it was a money thing because someone who plays that many tournaments are usually ranked from the 60's and down. Kim's a top ten player so I'm not sure WHY she played that much. She could have really hurt herself.

Venus worked hard to be consistent and Kim worked hard to get just enough points to eclipse Venus. Venus said she wanted to be #1 again, so 100, 200, 300 whatever points difference b/t #2 and #3 doesn't matter to her. She wants #1 again.

Cariaoke
May 6th, 2003, 02:00 AM
I'm sorry but 4 grand slam finals vs. a tier 1 and tour champs? I'd go with the finalist with 7 titles.

~|Naomi|~
May 6th, 2003, 02:09 AM
I'm sorry but 4 grand slam finals vs. a tier 1 and tour champs? I'd go with the finalist with 7 titles.

I agree with you, but what I'm saying is Kim has played the rankings very cleverly. Kim earnt more points for LA, than Venus did for any GS runner up performance.

I remember when Dokic was 4, everyone said she played too much and only got her rank for that reason. But hey if it works, do it, it's within the rules. There is no rule that states you can only play 13 or so tournaments, you could play 30 if you wanted.

Cariaoke
May 6th, 2003, 02:15 AM
yes, that's true. and I agree that Kim played smart and made sure she placed high in tournaments. that's how you do it. or you can play and do well in grand slams and at the lowest play and win tier 2's and still be at the top. they're both not easy to do.

Venus Forever
May 6th, 2003, 02:15 AM
I remember when Dokic was 4, everyone said she played too much and only got her rank for that reason. But hey if it works, do it, it's within the rules. There is no rule that states you can only play 13 or so tournaments, you could play 30 if you wanted.

That's why rankings are a whole lot of crock. It should be QUALITY, not quantity, and Kim has obviously taken advantage of that.

Venus is the better player quality wise, but Kim's better quantity wise, and the rankings favor quantity.

Look at it this way: Venus leads Kim by 200 points, HOWEVER, there is a total of exactly 10 more tournaments played by Kim than by Venus. What does that say about Kim's game?? If anything, it diminshes her achievements that a player ranked higher, plays a LOT less, yet still has more points. This is why I think people claim that Venus is the TRUE #2, although Kim definitely earned it because she played the system.

I just think this ranking system right now sucks, and it's time for a change. Everyone knows it is about quality and not quantity.

SerenaSlam
May 6th, 2003, 04:38 AM
exactly, another good point is, a lot of people are caught up in a fucked up point system, and they continue to use it to back up their players. The day Im waiting for, is when the Ranking system is completely changed to actually credit the player on the quality of play, and tournie wins they come up with, rather the the quanity of losses they achieve in later rounds. And when that happens, not only will that show the true colors of the rankings, but it will so the true colors of you fucks, that continue to make these bull ass excuses based on a fucked up ranking system. And then try and tell me about how opinions are opinions and are not facts.

Well when you realize the FACT that the ranking system is truly fucked up, you would see the clear FACT that your opinions truly are rated below mine and should never be considered into the factor of being anywhere near true/FACTS. Me on the other hand, all my opinions are not based on this ranking system. They are based on quality, ability to play the actual game of tennis, not a system of points towards tennis. If that was the case, then i should be out there on the courts with a calculator or computer after every match, and getting graded on how well i scored with the caluclation i came up with as to where my ranking should be and how many points i earned.

The game of Tennis is not about "points" its more so about tournie/match wins. Just like what you have with the NBA, they base their rankings on "wins/losses". This ranking system also does that, but they add to much B.S. in the mix, and they have these points for no reason.

Everyone can have their "opinions" on a players ranking and where they belong. But understand this with me, whenever Im talking about the ranking system and where a player belongs in the rank, i never base it on their points, or the tennis fucked up ranking system. I base it totally on a players ability vs. another players ability. That is how it has always been done. Take this as a very good example, its like Calling the Washington Wizards (NBA for the slo folks) better than the LA Lakers b/c they have 83-22 losses, and the LA Lakers only have 48-wins but to 11 losses. And the LA Lakers wins come from big tournies like Slams or the "championships". That is the case of the tennis ranking system. If you want to hear of a sport that ranks a player that is WAY better than another below them, the WTA is the right place for you to go :)

faboozadoo15
May 6th, 2003, 04:43 AM
of course she's the number 2...

faboozadoo15
May 6th, 2003, 04:43 AM
as long as u ppl admit that monica's ranking is bogus too! lol

Equinox
May 6th, 2003, 04:43 AM
Venus is the second best player after Serena. She wouldve beaten Amelie probably. I like Amelie but Venus is still better.

tennisIlove09
May 6th, 2003, 04:51 AM
as long as u ppl admit that monica's ranking is bogus too! lol

Seles is top 10 material... :)

WtaTour4Ever
May 6th, 2003, 06:29 AM
I honestly think that Peace will be achieved in the Middle East between the Israelis and the Palestinians before most of the WS fans and Kim fans will come to agree on anything.


I will only say this much b/c i'm tired of talking about it over and over and over and over and over and over and OVER.

1) I am a fan of Kim, not as much as Vee....but she is in my top 3/4.

2) I do believe Venus is a better player then Kim....thats my opinion...no harm there.

3) If and when Kim has the #2 ranking she deserves it........feel free to look at #2. :-)

4) I do think that Kim holds the better titles right now, Titles(Tier 1++)trump runner-up imo any day. The same runner-up argument could be made for Martina when she was #1 she was getting to GS finals and winning other tourneys......I don't buy. Its nice and all, but what we all want for our faves are ACTUAL GS titles.

5.) And this is what I really don't understand from so many people......Players make up their own schedules individually .....Kim is not consulting Venus or vice versa ...they aren't playing Chess here.... While having the #2 ranking is significant ...as in a step closer to #1, I doubt Vee nor Kim is running around doing complex math calculations to see what they need to do or play to obtain that all mighty #2 seed...I mean really.....Kim does play alot more than Venus...b/c thats what works for her its not against the law or illegal ....do you really want her to withdraw from tournaments b/c she has too many...I'm confused here....b/c thats what she has played in the past anyway(didn't she?)

The #2 seed does mean something to me....only b/c it guarantees that the WS will be in seperate halves of the draw.......not b/c Kim or Venus or whoever is there. And please don't mistake this for hating on KIM b/c as I said it is a milestone...one for which I congratulated her on. But outside of that I really don't even understand this incessant "True #2" discussion that continues to haunt this board.(and don't let me start on the True #4 threads.....)



6) At the end of the day no matter what anyone says people will believe what they believe.... I won't really go into it anymore b/c I think angele touched on a lot of that.


7) Its one thing to discuss and debate...which I think 95% of this board does....but all the other stuff is so unnecessary... "Can't we all just get along" or should I form multiple personalities so that my Pro-Venus side and Pro-Kim sides can argue with one another.


OK I've said my peace ....Thank you and Good Night!!

LucasArg
May 6th, 2003, 06:44 AM
Venus :kiss:

switz
May 6th, 2003, 07:02 AM
serenaslam don't you every get tired of trying to find new ways of presenting the same argument. all year you have been posting threads coming up with all these theories which prove that venus deserves to be no.2. i am not saying whether i think you are right or wrong, but i mean i think that you (and a lot of other people) have to stop getting so obsessed with the rankings. venus is no.2 right now, so why don't you venus fans just be happy with it instead of trying to justify it all the time. i know its not just venus fans who do this whole who deserves to be ranked where thing, but i find the debate stupid, because i think it is just logical that a player deserves to be ranked where they are ranked (unless unfair injury eg seles. everyone gets easy draws at some point and injury is just a part of tennis) if venus or serena have to met in a grand-slam semi-final i doubt that the sky would fall down, in fact it could be good for venus to play serena outside the finals atmosphere.

switz
May 6th, 2003, 07:31 AM
the rankings do balance quality and quantity. it is not the ranking system's fault if venus cannot play 17 tournaments a year. kim might play 25 tournaments or something but only 17 count, and to me that just shows that she can stand up to the challenges of playing tennis all year around, rather than the every other week (or month) approach that venus adopts. does the tour not represent quality by tiering tournaments? i don't remember vera zvonareva getting the same amount of points as mauresmo for winning Bol last week, in fact mauresmo got 3 times as much. don't you also get more points when you beat a higher quality player, or did patty get the same points for beating serena and capriati in charleston that she did for beating ruano-pascual in the 1st round? i know, why don't we just say that the maximum number of tournaments that are counted towards a players ranking is however many venus plays in any given year, and that anything below a tier II does not go towards the rankings so players who work their arses of all year round trying to climb the rankings won't ever get anywhere. i like venus, but if the no.2 ranking means that much to her (which i suspect it doesn't) she should stop doing her decorating course and play a decent number of tournaments, because it is allowed for top players to occassionally go below the tier II level. if it wasn't, how would many tournaments survive? personally i don't think venus can play more tournaments than she currently does, because with all her injuries, especially tendonitis, she can't stand up to it all, and being fit to play IMO is just as fundamental as being able to hit the ball well.

(btw i think venus at her best is the no.2 in the world, maybe even 1)

BasicTennis
May 6th, 2003, 07:45 AM
everyone deserves their own rankings...it's how the system works and you can't even see any of the players complain about this.;)

gentenaire
May 6th, 2003, 08:43 AM
the rankings do balance quality and quantity. it is not the ranking system's fault if venus cannot play 17 tournaments a year. kim might play 25 tournaments or something but only 17 count, and to me that just shows that she can stand up to the challenges of playing tennis all year around, rather than the every other week (or month) approach that venus adopts. does the tour not represent quality by tiering tournaments? i don't remember vera zvonareva getting the same amount of points as mauresmo for winning Bol last week, in fact mauresmo got 3 times as much. don't you also get more points when you beat a higher quality player, or did patty get the same points for beating serena and capriati in charleston that she did for beating ruano-pascual in the 1st round? i know, why don't we just say that the maximum number of tournaments that are counted towards a players ranking is however many venus plays in any given year, and that anything below a tier II does not go towards the rankings so players who work their arses of all year round trying to climb the rankings won't ever get anywhere. i like venus, but if the no.2 ranking means that much to her (which i suspect it doesn't) she should stop doing her decorating course and play a decent number of tournaments, because it is allowed for top players to occassionally go below the tier II level. if it wasn't, how would many tournaments survive? personally i don't think venus can play more tournaments than she currently does, because with all her injuries, especially tendonitis, she can't stand up to it all, and being fit to play IMO is just as fundamental as being able to hit the ball well.

(btw i think venus at her best is the no.2 in the world, maybe even 1)

:worship: Exactly! The rankings do project quality as well, but only if you play enough tournaments. Who says Venus would still be as good if she played 25 tournaments a year? Maybe she would feel too tired throughout the year and lose more.
The rankings must encourage players to play tournaments, otherwise lots of tournaments wouldn't be able to survive.