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View Full Version : Jennifer really confuses me...


SerenaSlam
Apr 19th, 2003, 08:50 PM
...now I know she can hit with like Lindsay, Serena, Venus, but i just don't understand her. When she goes into matches against them, its like she elects to play nothing but defense, no offense, and in the case with playing lindsay, she can hit a good defensive shot on the run, setting up an easy winner (giving you the reason why she hits a lot of winners against lindsa) But when you have Lindsay D, or Serena W, like she has played them the past 2 times, playing this well, you have to give something else, and that is Offense in your part, and its something she has.

Does she not want to do it? No, she does it at the wrong time, and most of the time, well hell, every time, its too late. Like today against Lindsay, she was running jennifer all over the court, side to side, up, back, down, left and right. All Jennifer did to day was Defense. I wondered why so often Venus/Serena hit so many winners against Jennifer if she is supposed to be OC with her fitness and very fast, but still it really doesn't show. These players (Lindsay, Serena,Venus) have adjusted to the waiting factor. Just run jennifer around, like serena said during us open, you can run down everything, and that is a good proven point, and every time i see jennifer play lindsay, serena or venus, she is running down a lot of balls, but eventually b/c these three have learned to just wait for the winner ball, they hit like 40-50 winners against her every time.

Where is Jennifer's offense, and when does he bring it? Her offense is there, but when she was down 15-40 and the two match points, its like she all of a sudden clicked and realized that she needs to hit the ball, otherwise this match is over. When the score read 15-40, i knew the match was over, Jennifer is really really really picking the wrong time to play Offense, especially against someone like Lindsay. Jennifer should be running Lindsay around about like Serena/Venus do lindsay, just run her everywhere, and beat her in straight sets. But everytime these two plays, 1 its lindsay the only 1 dicating (well let me say lindsay dictates about 90 % of the match) 2 linsday as to date, is the only 1 winning.

When Jennifer won Australian, i really do believe and feel this was the actual grand slam she was playing her best tennis. She was playing A LOT AND I MEAN A LOT more OFFENSE, than she was DEFENSE, but still had the good defense game.

Right now, Jennifer is more so relying on her opponent to make errors, while she hits a couple winners every now and then to keep her in matches, she is a very good player, and i think if starting matches, she would just turn on her Offense game from the start and keep it going, she would win easier, and against the top players, she would have them struggling even more, and it wouldn't be b/c they are making errors or b/c jennifer is playing "good defense" it would be more so b/c Jennifer is hitting these winners, and playing good defense.

o0O0o
Apr 19th, 2003, 08:55 PM
Against the top players, Jennifer isn't that powerful. Linday is the most powerful on tour and Serena and Venus are close behind. In 2001, IMO, Jennifer played more complete tennis. Like against Hingis in her first Aussie Open final, Jennifer didn't really overpower her but played consistently, hit from side to side, and closed points off at net or short in the court. I'd call her a complete player more than a power player.

And that is the problem. You have to be as powerful as Lindsay to beat her. She doesn't lose to players unless they have HUGE weapons. Capriati just isn't explose enough.

Davenport's recent losses are against Clijsters, Venus, Serena, and Seles. Those players can explode on the ball more than Jennifer.

Mr. Man
Apr 19th, 2003, 09:01 PM
o0O0o has a point.

I really wanted Jen to win today, Then get a damn title. It's been awhile eh? :rolleyes:

leslie
Apr 19th, 2003, 09:12 PM
...now I know she can hit with like Lindsay, Serena, Venus, but i just don't understand her. When she goes into matches against them, its like she elects to play nothing but defense, no offense, and in the case with playing lindsay, she can hit a good defensive shot on the run, setting up an easy winner (giving you the reason why she hits a lot of winners against lindsa) But when you have Lindsay D, or Serena W, like she has played them the past 2 times, playing this well, you have to give something else, and that is Offense in your part, and its something she has.

Does she not want to do it? No, she does it at the wrong time, and most of the time, well hell, every time, its too late. Like today against Lindsay, she was running jennifer all over the court, side to side, up, back, down, left and right. All Jennifer did to day was Defense. I wondered why so often Venus/Serena hit so many winners against Jennifer if she is supposed to be OC with her fitness and very fast, but still it really doesn't show. These players (Lindsay, Serena,Venus) have adjusted to the waiting factor. Just run jennifer around, like serena said during us open, you can run down everything, and that is a good proven point, and every time i see jennifer play lindsay, serena or venus, she is running down a lot of balls, but eventually b/c these three have learned to just wait for the winner ball, they hit like 40-50 winners against her every time.

Where is Jennifer's offense, and when does he bring it? Her offense is there, but when she was down 15-40 and the two match points, its like she all of a sudden clicked and realized that she needs to hit the ball, otherwise this match is over. When the score read 15-40, i knew the match was over, Jennifer is really really really picking the wrong time to play Offense, especially against someone like Lindsay. Jennifer should be running Lindsay around about like Serena/Venus do lindsay, just run her everywhere, and beat her in straight sets. But everytime these two plays, 1 its lindsay the only 1 dicating (well let me say lindsay dictates about 90 % of the match) 2 linsday as to date, is the only 1 winning.

When Jennifer won Australian, i really do believe and feel this was the actual grand slam she was playing her best tennis. She was playing A LOT AND I MEAN A LOT more OFFENSE, than she was DEFENSE, but still had the good defense game.

Right now, Jennifer is more so relying on her opponent to make errors, while she hits a couple winners every now and then to keep her in matches, she is a very good player, and i think if starting matches, she would just turn on her Offense game from the start and keep it going, she would win easier, and against the top players, she would have them struggling even more, and it wouldn't be b/c they are making errors or b/c jennifer is playing "good defense" it would be more so b/c Jennifer is hitting these winners, and playing good defense.

Yea, she plays like Kim waiting for her opponents to make errors. Jen is not a smart player either if she was she would move Lindsay all over the court like V/S. I don't know she can seem to win another title almost 2 yrs. She needs to go back to the drawing board. She did improve her 1st serve.

Venus Forever
Apr 19th, 2003, 09:23 PM
I think o0O0o is right for a change.:rolleyes:

Jennifer comes off to many as a power player, and so does Kim Clijsters for that fact. Sure, they have power, but not an excessive amount of it, like Lindsay, Venus, Serena, and Monica have. They can hit hard, and hit harder than most, but not as hard the other four, and most people do not realize that, and expect them to be slugging just as many winners as the other four.

downtheline
Apr 19th, 2003, 09:33 PM
We have to remember that Jen is less of a power-player then she was in 1991. Back then, she was one of the top three hitters of the ball easily. Today, we have Davenport and the Williams girls, and they can blow winners by her early in a point. Jen has steady flat strokes and can push opponents back once she gets into a rally, but against the better girls, she does not strike first enough because she doesn't have that extra leverage or muscle. Unfortunately, she doesn't use the inside-out forehand enough it seems. Her forehand is more explosive than her backhand, but it's rather useless when she is content to hit late and whip up crosscourt all the time.

Her serve is a liability. It's technique. She drops her head down, and her toss gives away what she is trying to hit.

Henin is developing a fine first serve, and she is shorter.

Jen was playing like Aranxta Sanchez Vicario today without any topspin.

It's odd how Monica and Jen had to become defensive players. I think Monica had more trouble adjusting though.

With that being said, Jen is still right in there with the top girls. She needs to get in a groove with winning matches against top players.

She is not far away. This was her first clay court event. I think she should commit to a lot of events before the French and the US Open. If she is going to overcome these girls in the Slams, she has to do it at Tier 1/2 events as well.

If she gets her serve together somehow, she could be up there with Clijsters no problem.

She is playing a notch below 2001. It is confidence and that predictable serve. At least she did not double fault so much today.

Jennifer hasn't maxed out on her talent yet. She can have another good run at it like 2001.

SerenaSlam
Apr 19th, 2003, 09:33 PM
so what is the name we should be using for these players like kim and jennifer?

We have power players- Serena, Venus, Lindsay, Monica

We have the defensive players- Coetzer, Panova, Pistolesi

But what about- Jennifer, Kim, Dani, Amelie, etc... what should we be calling them?

Venus Forever
Apr 19th, 2003, 09:35 PM
The Little power Babes??

How 'bout that??

o0O0o
Apr 19th, 2003, 09:40 PM
Big-babes: Davenport, Williamses

Medium Babes: Dokic, Capriati, Hantuchova, Clijsters

tennisIlove09
Apr 19th, 2003, 09:43 PM
It's a fine line. There's no question that Kim, Jennifer, Daniela can out power any on tour [with the exception of the big three Lindsay, Venus, Serena]. That's how the win those matches, but against the top three, they become the under dog in a sense.

I've mentioned this before, but Kim and Jennifer are different from the Big Babes in the sense that they don't hit close to the lines. They aren't as aggressive as Lindsay, Venus, Serena. That hurts them to a degree. What would be winners against any other player, aren't against those top three.

SerenaSlam
Apr 19th, 2003, 09:43 PM
Big-babes: Davenport, Williamses

Medium Babes: Dokic, Capriati, Hantuchova, Clijsters
sounds good to me :)

SerenaSlam
Apr 19th, 2003, 09:47 PM
is this say the prob the first thread every where everyone is really actually agreeing? no negativity.

This thread is offcially OC!

Kart
Apr 19th, 2003, 10:37 PM
Capriati lacks a big weapon. Her phenomenal fitness and footwork are the reason why she stays with the top players. She hits hard enough to beat everyone else and is fit enough to chase everything else down but in the end she hasn't got a big shot and that's why she can't put Lindsay or Serena away.

Venus is an entirely different prospect though and I think JenCap's a bit mentally vulnerable against her.

selesfan
Apr 19th, 2003, 11:33 PM
Yea, she plays like Kim waiting for her opponents to make errors. Jen is not a smart player either if she was she would move Lindsay all over the court like V/S. I don't know she can seem to win another title almost 2 yrs. She needs to go back to the drawing board. She did improve her 1st serve.

Like Patty Schnyder said it is not easy to move Lindsay around when she is dctating play. The Williams sisters are the only players who can consistently move Lindsay around because they get to most of Lindsay's shots that are winners against the other players.

tennnisfannn
Apr 20th, 2003, 01:10 AM
I expected jen to beat lindsay on clay and i am still surprised. So much for people thinking lindsay sucks on clay, she just may shock everyone at RG.
What I don't get is if Kim and jen's games are similar, then how come Kim seems to have found the key to beating lindsay! I believe it boils down to the mental game and Jen needs to beat either serena or venus/linc just once and the rest of her game will come togethger. Aggression needs confidence.

CJ07
Apr 20th, 2003, 01:19 AM
Uber Power Babes
Serena
Venus

Super Power Babes
Lindsay
Jen/Monica (I'd have to see them play to be able to decide)

Retrievers/Shotmakers Who Hit Pretty Darn Hard
Justine, Kim

that would be my list

anyway, Kim is faster than Jen, and her forehand is more of a weapon than jennifers is, she has more variety, and shes aggressive while being consistent. thats why shes had Lindsays number.
Also, in Lindsays mind, she knows she'll only lose to Jcap playing badly. she doesnt have that mindset against Kim, nor does she against Venus or Serena
I mean she lost to V 6-2 6-1 and to Serena 6-1 7-5 (looked like it would be 6-1 6-2) for goodness sakes while I love V and Rena, unless they play out of their minds, they shouldnt win that easily

also i think it has to with who takes the first strike, Lindsay does this against everyone but V, Rena and Kim. While as Jennifer, she does this with everyone but The Top 10 really.

As for Monica adjusting to being a defensive player, what are you talking about? Monica, as much as I like her, is no defensive player. Shes all offense. And actually, thats the problem. She can really through the kitchen sink at you, but when your throwing the kitchen sink at her Tokyos 2nd and third sets happen (6-7 6-1 6-2)

WtaTour4Ever
Apr 20th, 2003, 01:28 AM
I think its too easy to bag on Jen when imo Lindsay just played a really really good match....her backhand crosscourt was on fire. I don't know match statistics but Lindsay can hurt you off both wings where as Jen can only hurt you with the forehand and the way Lindsay was hitting Jen was lucky to get the ball back.

treufreund
Apr 20th, 2003, 01:45 AM
I think Jen does hit very hard when she is not already on the defensive, but she needs to

1) go for more first serves

2) develop more variety on her second serve

3) hit closer to the sidelines or with more ANGLES (and not SOLELY when on the defensive but I mean CREATING ANGLES a la Davenport, Seles and Clijsters)

4) Put away short balls better

5) Use the inside out forehand

6) Swing her serve out wide more often

7) Improve her finesse shots/net play


YESS, there is a lot that can be improved and needs to be done to dictate play better. When pulled out wide to the backhand she usually hits back up the middle and deep and Lindsay just sends her to the other side or goes behind her.

chicagofan
Apr 20th, 2003, 01:58 AM
I'd also say that Jen needs to move forward more. Lindsay is doing this consistently now and getting better results. So many times today Jen would take 2 or 3 steps backwards when hitting the ball. I know those are deep shots, but--in contrast-- Serena rarely gives ground and hits the ball on the rise (sometimes it seems as soon as the ball leaves the ground!).

1jackson2001
Apr 20th, 2003, 02:01 AM
I think a lot of it is mental. Lindsay has Jen's number big time. Lindsay runs Jen around like a bunny rabbit and eventually Jen runs out of steam. The truth is Lindsay hits too good for Jen. While Jen can beat lesser players because she overpowers them, Lindsay is that much better than Jen. IMO, Lindsay is good enough to beat Jen in straight sets almost everytime. But it is because of Jen's speed and fighting determination (and some Lindsay lapses) Jen is able to hang tough in three sets..but eventually the better player wins..and in this case, it is Lindsay.

Lindsay doesn't have to move that well against her opponents because she hits deep, heavy, well-placed shots to control the point and dictate play usually. Against Serena or Venus however, Lindsay's power balls gets retrieved more readily and are matched, and sometimes surpassed in power. S/V can hit harder than Lindsay and they can hit super-offensive shots while in defensive position. As a result, they control the point and dictate play against Lindsay more often. And just like I said before, the better player eventually wins..and in this case it is the sisters.

SerenaSlam
Apr 20th, 2003, 02:32 AM
I see we have given jennifer about 20 things she needs to try and do, to have a better chance at winning. so is it safe to say, she really can't accomplish all this over night? with this big of a list, i don't even think she could complete an attempt to cover it all by the US Open. But the fact of the matter is, as strong as jennifer is looking, like Pam Says, jennifer is a "strong player" and by saying that she is avoiding the jennifer is "thick" phrase. But Kim Clijsters is her identical, but much faster. And her speed is what gets to Lindsay. Just like w/ venus and serena, lindsay has an easier time w/ kim though, but kim's speed is what gets to lindsay, serena/venus get to lindsay w/ speed, power, big serves, defense to offense, offense almost the entire match.

In order to make it today at the top you have to dicate. That is the whole matter and factor. People adjust more quickly to others who "wait" than they do trying to get their games more technically sound. While if they just keep moving them around, eventually the rabbit will run out of gas, and right now, jennifer/kim are those rabbits. But with Venus and Serena the fact that they do this better that Jen/Kim they also have a lot of Offense, they rarerly are on defense, but when they are, they are the best in the entire game at it :)

1jackson2001
Apr 20th, 2003, 02:40 AM
I see you like my using the terms "rabbit". :) ;)

Nan Cu
Apr 20th, 2003, 02:42 AM
What I don't get is if Kim and jen's games are similar, then how come Kim seems to have found the key to beating lindsay!

Kim has a better backhand, and plays more aggressive.

Venus Forever
Apr 20th, 2003, 03:05 AM
Nan Cu, I don't believe that is the reason why Kim beats Lindsay, and Jennifer doesn't.

Honestly, I don't even think Kim's backhand is better, I think it's the same.

Why Lindsay loses to Kim and not Jen is because of Kim's speed. Kim gets everything back, and it frustrates Lindsay.

Jen, on the otherhand, is not quite as quick, and Lindsay has an easier time putting the ball away.

CJ07
Apr 20th, 2003, 03:15 AM
also Davenport is just so confident against Jen
thats not there with Kim, shes much more negative
like today when she got down, it didnt bother her as she knew she'd still win anyway

xin
Apr 20th, 2003, 09:52 AM
Yep.

carling
Apr 21st, 2003, 02:34 AM
I think Jenny Cap's biggest problem right now is fitness. I never thought I'd see the day when Lindsay Davenport was thinner than Jenny Cap. Shocking! Jen needs to lose about 15 lbs and get back into the shape she was in 2001. I'm not a person who believes you have to be skinny in order to play well or look good. However, as a professional tennis player you have to be FIT, especially these days.

Jen's carrying around too much weight and she couldn't get to Lindsay's powerful shots in time to do anything with them. That's also why she's lost her aggression on the court. You have to move extremely well to set up for those hard, yet accurate groundstrokes. I believe Jen ran out of gas at the Family Circle cup against Serena too.

Jen just isn't fit enough anymore. Hopefully, she will drop the weight and start winning those kinds of matches again. Jen has always been one of my favorites. :)

Shane54
Apr 21st, 2003, 04:20 AM
I am telling you the reason why Jennifer is not winning is b/c of strategy., very poor strategy and tactics. She should beat Linds on clay if not the other surfaces.

Folks, now watch when Jennifer plays Kim. Jennifer will be a different player than she is against Linds. Remember Kim has to get over the 0-3 record against Jenn. That matchup will be interesting.

And Yes, Jenn needs to get in shape. She looked very slow out there Saturday.

carling
Apr 21st, 2003, 12:43 PM
I also think some new coaching/strategy would boost Jen's game. Look at how much she improved while working with Harold Solomon. The time she spent with Solomon was the foundation of her grand slam wins. Nothing against Jen's dad, Stefano, but her game and tactics have gotten a bit stale.

F-R-E-A-K
Apr 21st, 2003, 01:43 PM
okay then

magassi
Apr 21st, 2003, 02:52 PM
OK, guaranteed Jennifer plays too defensively against Lindsay and needs better strategy, and better fitness. What baffles me about Capriati -- and her play against Davenport -- is how many times she led 40-0 or 40-15, on her serve, only to lose the game. In the first set, after leading 2-0 and 40-0...she lost the game. Again, in the third set she broke back to get on-serve at 2-3, leads 40-15... and loses the game. What gives??

CapFan#1
Apr 21st, 2003, 03:34 PM
I think it is all mental ( ok, maybe 90% mental, and 10% fitness). But hey, we were not in Jen's mind Saturday. Sometimes you just have one of those days on the tennis court where you are playing well, and your opponent is playing out of her mind. I think that is what happened against Davey on Saturday. She was just hitting her groundies unbelievably well, and Jen just wasn't coming up quickly eneogh with a winning game plan. She tried different things, it just didn't work.

I really believe that she just needs a 1 big win over Serena, or Verus, or Davey, and she will on the confidence roll like she was in 2001.