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View Full Version : Why can Jen play the top players so tough but not pull out a win?


mn73
Apr 19th, 2003, 09:43 PM
It is so bloody frustrating. If she won a couple of titles a year I could take these three set losses against top players. They are usually fantastically entertaining matches, but why is Jen coming out on the wrong end of them so much. What's happened to the girl who fought back at the Aussie Open in 2002? :(

Luna_Angel_84
Apr 19th, 2003, 09:50 PM
I agree Mark, and have no idea either. It is just getting more and more frutsrtaing- she just appears to fizzle out at the very end when she needs to be fighting at her very hardest. It's just a few crucial points here and there, but she is losing them when she needs to be winning them. :(

JCAP
Apr 19th, 2003, 10:10 PM
Im so pissed of! and i agree with you guys

Raj
Apr 19th, 2003, 10:17 PM
Check this all the tight matches against the top players Capriati has lost:

FR L Serena WILLIAMS (USA) 2-6 6-4 4-6
FR L Serena WILLIAMS (USA) 5-7 6-7(4)
SF L Justine HENIN-HARDENNE (BEL) 7-5 2-6 1-6
SF L Serena WILLIAMS (USA) 2-6 6-3 5-7
SF L Serena WILLIAMS (USA) 6-3 6-7(2) 2-6
SF L Serena WILLIAMS (USA) 6-2 4-6 4-6
SF L Justine HENIN-HARDENNE (BEL) 5-7 6-4 4-6
SF L Lindsay DAVENPORT (USA) 4-6 6-4 4-6
FR L Serena WILLIAMS (USA) 6-4 4-6 1-6

Raj
Apr 19th, 2003, 10:18 PM
thats in the past 12 months

leslie
Apr 19th, 2003, 10:19 PM
Jen is not a smart player that's all there is to it.

Raj
Apr 19th, 2003, 10:20 PM
Must be the mental aspect of the game.

TSequoia01
Apr 19th, 2003, 10:26 PM
It simply is that Jen does not dictate most of the points. She is more of a counterpuncher against the big hitters. Consequently, whether she wins or loses mainly is not up to her directly. Today, as others have pointed out repeatedly, she waits for opponents to make errors to win her points rather than take risks. Waiting on Lindsay is not a smart move. :cool:

hinquit
Apr 19th, 2003, 10:41 PM
There is a simple reason why Jennifer Capriati doesn't win against the
tops:
Her losing records against the following players have been so and
will remain: Venus, Serena, Davenport, Seles and Henin.
There is no way she will win any tight matches against those mentioned
above because these players have the mental toughness to end the
match with Jenn. under any circumstance.

tennisIlove09
Apr 19th, 2003, 10:45 PM
It is baffling. One has to think maybe the H2H will the top players comes into effect.

Zero wins against Venus
4 Wins against Serena--not Since Wimbledon 01
2 Wins against Davenport

Maybe that's it?

SerenaSlam
Apr 19th, 2003, 10:57 PM
It simply is that Jen does not dictate most of the points. She is more of a counterpuncher against the big hitters. Consequently, whether she wins or loses mainly is not up to her directly. Today, as others have pointed out repeatedly, she waits for opponents to make errors to win her points rather than take risks. Waiting on Lindsay is not a smart move. :cool:
i think it was put best this way.

tennis now, especially in the womens game, has become all about Offense. Defense is very good, but when you have the ladies hitting the balls like they are, your defensive games, has now turned you into a player out there relying too much on the other player to make a mistake and give you points. This is where I think if I was out there i would not be having fun, knowing im waiting on an error instead of me out there trying to actually win the point!

veryborednow
Apr 19th, 2003, 10:59 PM
Why can Jen play the top players so tough but not pull out a win?
Her serve.

As TSequoia01 very rightly points out, she does not dictate the points. That stems from not getting right on top of players for the first ball. This is ok against lower players, but against the top ones.

(a) She isn't getting the free points that the others do
(b) They know that 9/10 the serve will go to their forehand. Give a top player a head start like that, she might as well not be serving, because she's getting little advantage from doing so.

At the beginning of 2001, her serve was better. She had confidence, and her problems with the serve stem from confidence because "it's fine in practice". I'm sure it is because you can replicate the atmosphere/tension of a real match in pratice sessions.

This is just an opinion. I really no sweet FA about the mechanics of playing tennis. I can't even get my serve into the box.

darren cahill
Apr 19th, 2003, 11:01 PM
i think its her serve...i get so nervous when shes serving...even when its 40-0 i cant relax...its also maddening watching Lindsay just play out of her freaking mind against Jennifer and the how she was so hum drum against Serena last week until she was just about out of the match...Lindsay should take her attitude against Jennifer into some of these other higher ranked players...the way she played today and yesterday was incredible....

CJ07
Apr 19th, 2003, 11:03 PM
in fact, the last time Jen beat a top 4 player was when she beat Jelena Dokic at Toronto (who retired) and before that, Martina Hingis at OZ

I agree w/ she doesnt dictate enough points. She needs to put her offense and defense into one package.
Thats why she'll stay at #6

King Lindsay
Apr 19th, 2003, 11:31 PM
Call me crazy, but I think the reason might be even simpler than you all imagined. She isn't as good as the players she struggles against.

Kart
Apr 19th, 2003, 11:47 PM
She lacks a big enough weapon to put those long rallies away against Serena and Lindsay. Against Venus it's mental and against Justine I think it's just that she's on a roll.

I think her fans should be proud really of the way she's been playing recently. She's really picked up since the end of last year and is looking like she's going to be a real contender again for the first time since RG 2002. Good for her.

CJ07
Apr 19th, 2003, 11:49 PM
Call me crazy, but I think the reason might be even simpler than you all imagined. She isn't as good as the players she struggles against.
possibly. She and Lindsay are neck and neck, but Lidnsay has twice as m any titles But Jennifer just doesnt have one big weapon, she just hits hard and runs fast (even though she can produce some great shots while doing so)

apop1
Apr 19th, 2003, 11:52 PM
i agree that she plays counter pouncher against davenport and the sisters. When she went for her shots she usually won, when she went down the middle she got KILLED. Davenport especially is the best ball striker in women's tennis (in my humble opinion IMHO), but doesnt move well. JENcap though plays the ball right down the middle which just is PERFECT for davenport. Same problem with the SISTERs. She needs to be more aggressive against the top players (i have similar problems, i tend to hit down the middle agaisnt hard hitteres, and i can get killed when they are on)

King Lindsay
Apr 19th, 2003, 11:53 PM
Neck and neck how? In career stats? Yes, they are, although Lindsay has an advantage there too.

Jennifer does have one big weapon. Her forehand.

SerenaSlam
Apr 19th, 2003, 11:58 PM
possibly. She and Lindsay are neck and neck, but Lidnsay has twice as m any titles But Jennifer just doesnt have one big weapon, she just hits hard and runs fast (even though she can produce some great shots while doing so)
she just hits hard and runs fast...

this really proves it as well, against everyone but the three ladies we have been talking about this works. But with Lindsay, Serena, Venus hitting hard and runnig fast, isn't working, evenutally you run out of runnig space. What can be said about Jennifer, can be said about Serena/Venus, and Lindsay. They hit hard, but don't run fast (even though Venus/Serena litterally do) they just walk to the service line b/c the point is over, and they either hit a winner or a nonreturnable shot. Jen on the other hand, hits hard, but no hard enough, and not its never really that good of a shot.

Down the Middle tactic. When you are playing players, and come in with strategys, evetually players will adjust and get used to it. Martina Navratilova used to always say a couple of years ago, "want a chance w/ the sisters, hit the ball hard, deep down the middle" The sisters have adjusted to that, and it really doesn't work anymore against them. They have grown acustmed to them atleast seeing that play, especially when playing Lindsay or Jennifer.

tennisIlove09
Apr 20th, 2003, 12:01 AM
Neck and neck how? In career stats? Yes, they are, although Lindsay has an advantage there too.

Jennifer does have one big weapon. Her forehand.

And even that's not that much bigger then Lindsay's. On the run, cross court for sure...but if Lindsay has time to line it up...it's just as, if not more lethal.

The differences between Lindsay/Jen are simple:

Jen's the better mover; Lindsay's the better server.

King Lindsay
Apr 20th, 2003, 12:02 AM
And even that's not that much bigger then Lindsay's. On the run, cross court for sure...but if Lindsay has time to line it up...it's just as, if not more lethal.

The differences between Lindsay/Jen are simple:

Jen's the better mover; Lindsay's the better server.

I wasn't comparing Jen's forehand to Lindsay's. I was just replying to mmcdonald who is apparently convinced that Jennifer lacks a big weapon.

CJ07
Apr 20th, 2003, 12:15 AM
I wasn't comparing Jen's forehand to Lindsay's. I was just replying to mmcdonald who is apparently convinced that Jennifer lacks a big weapon.
jens forehand is a weapon, as is her backhand
that should be a given

but that weapon isnt good enough

selesfan
Apr 20th, 2003, 12:20 AM
Jen has trouble against the top players if they are on their game because they are better than her. Lindsay is tops in everything over Jen except maybe in her movement.

King Lindsay
Apr 20th, 2003, 12:24 AM
jens forehand is a weapon, as is her backhand
that should be a given

but that weapon isnt good enough

if that is a given, why did you say she doesn't have a big weapon?

Her backhand is not fit to be mentioned in the same sentence as her forehand. Jennifer's forehand is FAR more dangerous than her backhand. It IS a big weapon. This is what I'm trying to tell you.

CJ07
Apr 20th, 2003, 12:38 AM
whether her forehand is a weapon or not is not the issue

the issue is why Jen loses to these players, and i am just stating, while those aforementioned shots are weapons, they're not good enough

King Lindsay
Apr 20th, 2003, 12:44 AM
whether her forehand is a weapon or not is not the issue

the issue is why Jen loses to these players, and i am just stating, while those aforementioned shots are weapons, they're not good enough

And that should also be a given, mcdonald. Of course when she loses her shots aren't good enough to win.

Her shots were good enough to win three Slams and take the #1 ranking for a while, though. problem is, she did all that without ever really being better than players like Venus or Lindsay. She was clearly better than Serena for a while, but the tables have turned there. And I just think that she isn't as good as those three girls. She may have the occasional win over them, but those three will come away with the lion's share of the decisions against her.

DEETHELICK
Apr 20th, 2003, 12:49 AM
1) Jen's serve needs to hold up better.

2) Jen needs to apply a more aggressive game plan against the big hitters. Its easier than it sounds, but Jen can do it, she needs to go for some BIG shots once in a while to consolidate her position.

3) Jen herself has to believe she can win against them.

Jen can do all the above, and even though I'm a Jen fan, I think she got outplayed towards the end!!

Keep fighting Jen, your time to shine is coming :)

Mase
Apr 20th, 2003, 01:01 AM
I agree she was definitley on the defense today, and thats the bottom line. Jen is still a great player, not matter what happened today or any tournament. I mean today, and this whole tournament, Lindsay has been just of the hook. I dont think Ive ever seen her play that well,even before the surgery. Its just definitley her week. I do think Jen needs to work on things, like her serve, its just going to be torn up every time she players power hitters. I also dont see her making some of the angle shots she was making back in 2001. Its like yeah, she gets to the balls, her movement is awesome, but she isnt DOING anything with the shots when she gets there. Thats just a trend Ive notcied with her this year. I mean overall since the Assuie Open she's done nothing but improve, and this year is far from over. She'll take some time, HOPEFULLY work on these things and she is still a contender for the French, and all the tournaments after that. I still belive in her, and hope/think she still believes in herself. This was obvioulsy Lindays tournament to win... Not that Jen COULDNT have beaten her but... The girl is simply infaugio.

GermanBoy
Apr 20th, 2003, 02:28 AM
I think you shouldn`t give Jen up. Okay, we have to admit that she lost many close matches to her biggest rivals but I think she still is able to beat them.

It`s obvious to me that most of the Williams fans talk Jennifer down. I don`t know what the relationship is between Jennifer and Serena/Venus but most of the fans of the Williams sisters have a problem with Jennifer`s succes. Jennifer plays her best matches against Serena, she even performs better than Venus but when Jennifer has lost all Williams fans talk her performance down, e. g. Serena could never lose to Jen!

Jen played great against Venus. I remember their final at the Lipton when Jen failed to use one of her 8 match points. Okay, she should have won the match but I don`t think Venus was the problem.

I think Jen has a mental problem. It`s in her head.
She becomes nervous in close situations. I don`t know why it is like that but Jen reacts hectically on her serve. She is not very relaxed when it`s her turn to serve.

Jen has proven that she can stand both Williams. In my opinion Lindsay always was her hardest rival.
She can`t win against Lindsay. I think it`s because their game and their weapons are very similar. Lindsay`s game is a bit more powerful.

I think Jen can compete with all players. She has to learn to cope with her nervousness in close match situations.