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Fortis
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:16 PM
During the match at the Family Circle Cup, I noticed that Justine hit some shots that Serena Williams could only dream about. For one shot Justine was on one leg as she jumped to hit a cross court winner. Serena didn't know what to do with some of Justine's strokes.

I have always thought that Justine was super-talented. Justine showed Serena how to play tennis yesterday. Getting back out of a 3-0 hole in the first set and 3-1 in the second while facing breakpoints was no easy feat.

It is easy for Serena to beat Lindsay and Capriati because they do not move well in comparison to players like Henin.

When I saw how easily Henin dispatched Ashley H. I knew that she would have beaten Serena. What I didn't expect was that she would break Serena was so often. Well done. Talent triumphed over power. It was nice to see. :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :cool: :cool:

kell
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:22 PM
That's a pretty big call to make...but I reluctantly, kind-of agree with you. Justine probably does have more talent, but Serena is still the better player, just because she has so much power, and you really need that to be no.1. You have to dominate in size and strength, not just play beautiful tennis.

But yeah, I see what you mean. Talent doesn't normally triumph over power, so it was refeshing to see. This isn't to say that Serena isn't talented...she's incredibly talented as well. She's just lucky (and has worked hard) enough to have the physique to back it up.

o0O0o
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:23 PM
The Williams sisters are poorly skilled players who would just make horrible coaches. The only reason they are on top is because of their manly physique. Let's face it, they are just terrible at volleying, slicing, lobs, drop shots, and most technical aspects of the game. If Henin or Hingis for example had their athleticism, height, and genetic build, they would have won 50 Grand Slams.

Hendouble
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:24 PM
It's highly possible, maybe even probable, but ultimately Serena is the better player because she can overwhelm the opponent with her game and is mentally tough throughout her matches, something that still cannot be said of Justine. Because Henin prefers to use her opponent's pace rather than generate her own, she still struggles a lot against the slice-and-dice, topspin clay merchants who try junking her around and play heavy, deep, looping balls to the baseline. Mind you, she is the one who thrashed Martinez 1 and 0 at Wimbledon in 2001, so she knows how to handle some of those sorts of players.

And I would argue that while Davenport is impeded by her mobility against Serena, it isn't Capriati's lack of speed that lets her down, it's her serve and obvious mental frailties, which were vividly exposed in the two crucial matches they played on clay last year, at Rome and the French Open, where she blew big leads and lost the match.

kell
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:26 PM
The Williams sisters are poorly skilled players who would just make horrible coaches. The only reason they are on top is because of their manly physique. Let's face it, they are just terrible at volleying, slicing, lobs, drop shots, and most technical aspects of the game. If Henin or Hingis for example had their athleticism, height, and genetic build, they would have won 50 Grand Slams.

You've gotta be kidding!! :mad: "Poorly skilled"!?!?! :eek: Their physique certainly helps them but you do not get to no.1 or even the top 10 without incredible amounts of talent! If what you're saying is true, any large, strong, muscular woman with a bit of practice on the courts could kick ass in tennis.

SJW
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:26 PM
LOL personally i think Serena is the most talented person out there :o

thats why she HAS one slams IS number one etc.

Justine has yet to conquer all surfaces and be CONSISTENT on them (something the three above her plus others in the top 10) have done..:o

IMO u r better cos u r more talented. as in any sport (i dont see why this is any different)

re. Serena dreaming...does Justine dream about hitting 120 mph serves, going on unbeaten streaks, and winning 4 slams in a row (or any slams for that matter)

make no mistake, i think she is an AMAZING talent (Justine)

but this has gotta stop :o

(sorry if this sounded bitchy but its been one of those weekends:o)

▀coene
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:27 PM
I'm not saying you are wrong, but you can't judge by just seeing this match.
I'm sure that Serena will play a lot better by Roland Garros.
I knew that the first clay tournemant for Serena would be the moment to beat her.

Infiniti2001
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:29 PM
Must be some powerful acid going around wherever you are o0O0o , because you are seriously deluded .

shap_half
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:29 PM
I would have to agree. although talent isn't everything. i think justine will still need to improve to get to the level of PLAYING serena and venus are in. justine is overwhelmingly talented probably the most right now in the top 10. she's got the variety and the skills to show off this talent but the fact that she isn't more muscular and taller kinda prevents her from winning more often in american hardcourts. that's probably why clay and grass are her best surfaces: they slow down the ball which allows her to do more with the ball and show off her talent.

SJW
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:31 PM
The Williams sisters are poorly skilled players who would just make horrible coaches. The only reason they are on top is because of their manly physique. Let's face it, they are just terrible at volleying, slicing, lobs, drop shots, and most technical aspects of the game. If Henin or Hingis for example had their athleticism, height, and genetic build, they would have won 50 Grand Slams.

and if u werent such an idiot you would know shit comes outta ur backside, not ur brain

no go back and put ur white hood and robe on Mr Man :o

o0O0o
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:31 PM
Well, if you run through the list of learned skills, as opposed to natural gifts (speed, power, height), the Williams sisters place last on the top 10 in every category.

Volleys
Drop Shots
Slicing
Defensive lobs
Offensive lobs
Placement
Shot consistence
SERVE*

As you can see, as far as skills are concerned they suck at everything except Serena's serve. Technically, Venus' sucks and would suck more if it weren't for her physical gifts.

It blows my mind that such trashy players can leap frog everyone just by running faster and hitting harder, but stranger stuff has happened.

▀coene
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:31 PM
I'm sure Serena's serve, forehand and backhand are good technical, otherwise she couldn't hit them so hard in court.

kell
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:32 PM
Must be some powerful acid going around wherever are o0O0o , because you are seriously deluded .

lol

vaiva
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:32 PM
If you claim that one player is more talented than the other, you must have a definition of talent, right?

Mind to tell us what is talent? I mean, tennis-wise :)

Hendouble
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:33 PM
They're obviously towards the upper end of the game talent-wise, but we don't see much of it because they don't often have to use it in matches - superior power and movement are usually enough to indicate the inevitable gap in class between them and most of their opponents. I've only seen them play doubles against the unfortunate pair of Ruano Pascual and Suarez, and the majority of their points were won by brute force and athleticism at the net, not by any clever exchange of shots. I'm sure they could display more skill if they had to, but then to be honest in tennis as a whole, few players need to show off a wide array of talents and abilities to win matches when an established game-plan is enough.

Fortis
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:33 PM
I think the Williams sisters are not highly skilled too. Whenever I watch their matches I get the impresion that their main understanding of the game is to get the ball over the net by any means necessary and if it looks like a volley then it is a volley.

Whenever Serena is faced with someone who can change up pace and shots , she looks ordinary.

Justine is also not fazed by the intimidation factor as Americans like Capriati and Lindsay, who probaby see Serena as a bigger star or player than themselves..well, maybe lindsay. Her body language against Serena and Venus is so negative.

Venus Forever
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:33 PM
The Williams sisters are poorly skilled players who would just make horrible coaches. The only reason they are on top is because of their manly physique. Let's face it, they are just terrible at volleying, slicing, lobs, drop shots, and most technical aspects of the game. If Henin or Hingis for example had their athleticism, height, and genetic build, they would have won 50 Grand Slams.

:wavey:

You never seem to amaze me with your foolish comments regarding the Williams sisters.

First, have you even seen them in person?? If you did, you would notice that they are just as womanly, if that's a word, as other women on tour. They are not that big, they don't even have overwhelming muscles like men. They are women, that are beautifully built. Venus, especially, is anything but manly.

Terrible at volleying, yeah, right. I admit, they don't have the best volleys, but they are good enough, and they get the job done.

Slicing?? Lobs?? Dropshots?? Why would they need them?? They overpower the opponents with their amazing shot making ability and precision. And just to let you know, Venus used the drop shot quite effectively during the clay season to set up the point, and it was always great.

Hingis, and Henin-Hardenne don't have their athleticism, height, built, etc., so, get over it. There is nothing they can do.

And to say that the Williams have poor skills is just foolish. I'm sorry, but no skills does not win you 25 GS Title between the two of them. They have to be doing something right.:rolleyes:

CJ07
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:34 PM
Justine is very talented, but Serena is more talented
if you got to #1 by just hitting hard and running fast then this wouldve happened ages ago

and if its that simple, then why doesnt the rest of the tour just spend 6 months in the gym, hire a sprinting trainer and be done with it?
its not that simple

kell
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:34 PM
Well, if you run through the list of learned skills, as opposed to natural gifts (speed, power, height), the Williams sisters place last on the top 10 in every category.

Volleys
Drop Shots
Slicing
Defensive lobs
Offensive lobs
Placement
Shot consistence
SERVE*

As you can see, as far as skills are concerned they suck at everything except Serena's serve. Technically, Venus' sucks and would suck more if it weren't for her physical gifts.

It blows my mind that such trashy players can leap frog everyone just by running faster and hitting harder, but stranger stuff has happened.

"Trashy"?!?? :mad: There is nothing trashy about the Williams sisters. They are all class.

Rollo
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:36 PM
Send us your weed 00000-must be powerful stuff.

Speaking of power---

I don't care if someone has the power of a bodybuilder-they still have to keep the ball in court. May I humbly suggest that someone who wins 4 slams in a row can keep the ball in court?

Pureracket
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:36 PM
The Williams sisters are poorly skilled players who would just make horrible coaches. The only reason they are on top is because of their manly physique. Let's face it, they are just terrible at volleying, slicing, lobs, drop shots, and most technical aspects of the game. If Henin or Hingis for example had their athleticism, height, and genetic build, they would have won 50 Grand Slams.

Zero :wavey:,
I was wondering where you had disappeared to. This board hasn't been the same without your good ol' fashioned hatred. Please post more.

Infiniti2001
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:37 PM
The Williames success is killing o0O0o . Hehehehehehe!!

SerenaSlam
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:37 PM
During the match at the Family Circle Cup, I noticed that Justine hit some shots that Serena Williams could only dream about. For one shot Justine was on one leg as she jumped to hit a cross court winner. Serena didn't know what to do with some of Justine's strokes.

I have always thought that Justine was super-talented. Justine showed Serena how to play tennis yesterday. Getting back out of a 3-0 hole in the first set and 3-1 in the second while facing breakpoints was no easy feat.

It is easy for Serena to beat Lindsay and Capriati because they do not move well in comparison to players like Henin.

When I saw how easily Henin dispatched Ashley H. I knew that she woud have beaten Serena. What I didn't expect was that she would break Serena was so often. Well done. Talent triumphed over power. It was nivce to see. :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :cool: :cool:
showing someone how to play tennis, and a player showing another how to hit 13 STRAIGHT ERRORS, is another thing. That is exactly what Serena did if you watch the tape. Justine didn't win those points or games, she was given them. Nice job with the win and all, but Serena many times has hit that Same exact shot you are talking about. Justine didn't really show anything than what she has always done in the past and what she did today. Serena for 1 was the 1 dicating all the play (when is she not?) She was making mistakes, I know you all hate to hear this b/c you feel it takes away from the winner, but like Justine said, she just started making mistakes for no reason, and she was back in the match. The match was very sloppy, and so far 1 example isn't even enough justine to say Justine is more talented than Serena. I can say that stroke wise, Serena is much more technically sound than justine, finess wise, justine has the edge, but when it comes to like say w/ Serena, instead of the standard volley when she is close up at the net, she still can hit swinging volleys (i never see anyone do this but serena, and im talking about when she is ON the net, Serena still hits the swinger. Justine is very much so talented, but when it comes down to bringing out eachothers shots against eachother, serena comes out on top w/ many more, and much more variety. With justine, you basically know what she is going to come up with, but Serena, like she says likes to have fun out there and try different and very difficult shots: Both are talented, but Serena to me has the edge :)

Another thing, Justine grew up playing on Clay, i think she is much more talented on the clay than serena.

Fortis
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:38 PM
when players who are taught to play tennis are presented with players who generally use power and aim the balls at their bodies, invariably talent will fall before power, imho.

Jakeev
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:38 PM
Well, if you run through the list of learned skills, as opposed to natural gifts (speed, power, height), the Williams sisters place last on the top 10 in every category.

Volleys
Drop Shots
Slicing
Defensive lobs
Offensive lobs
Placement
Shot consistence
SERVE*

As you can see, as far as skills are concerned they suck at everything except Serena's serve. Technically, Venus' sucks and would suck more if it weren't for her physical gifts.

It blows my mind that such trashy players can leap frog everyone just by running faster and hitting harder, but stranger stuff has happened.

If Venus and Serena are lacking everything mentioned above then the women who are the best at what was mentioned better hurry and catch up because then they must be lacking in something else........

SerenaSlam
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:40 PM
The Williams sisters are poorly skilled players who would just make horrible coaches. The only reason they are on top is because of their manly physique. Let's face it, they are just terrible at volleying, slicing, lobs, drop shots, and most technical aspects of the game. If Henin or Hingis for example had their athleticism, height, and genetic build, they would have won 50 Grand Slams.
so you could actually say, that if Serena or Venus had hingis/henin finess, they would win around 100 Grand Slams?

shap_half
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:40 PM
I think it is very inane to say that Serena dictated the whole game. I'm sorry but my favorite shot of the whole game was when Serena hit a short ball and Justine hit it directly at Serena. It was fun to see just exactly how much Serena dictated that shot to come straigh to her face!

BK4ever
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:41 PM
I would have to agree. although talent isn't everything. i think justine will still need to improve to get to the level of PLAYING serena and venus are in. justine is overwhelmingly talented probably the most right now in the top 10. she's got the variety and the skills to show off this talent but the fact that she isn't more muscular and taller kinda prevents her from winning more often in american hardcourts. that's probably why clay and grass are her best surfaces: they slow down the ball which allows her to do more with the ball and show off her talent.

Hingis was the just a bit talller than Juju and Juju is way more athletic and muscular than Hingis...so explain how Hingis managed to win so many HC tourneys if we were to use your logic?

And in case you didnt know...grass is a fast court...

Venus Forever
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:41 PM
o0O0o,

One more thing. As you brought up, players like Hingis and Henin-Hardenne are not blessed with height, genetic build, or athleticism. That's where they have to compensate by creating more technically sound shots.

Venus and Serena, being blesses with all those qualities, don't need the perfect lob, or the best dropshot, because they can do it athletically.

Basically, tennis is a sport of athleticism vs. technicalities. And right now, athleticism is winning, but who is to say which is right and which is wrong? Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it wrong.;)

▀coene
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:43 PM
o0O0o,

One more thing. As you brought up, players like Hingis and Henin-Hardenne are not blessed with height, genetic build, or athleticism. That's where they have to compensate by creating more technically sound shots.

Venus and Serena, being blesses with all those qualities, don't need the perfect lob, or the best dropshot, because they can do it athletically.

Basically, tennis is a sport of athleticism vs. technicalities. And right now, athleticism is winning, but who is to say which is right and which is wrong? Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it wrong.;)

I couldn't agree more. :)

shap_half
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:44 PM
Hingis was the just a bit talller than Juju and Juju is way more athletic and muscular than Hingis...so explain how Hingis managed to win so many HC tourneys if we were to use your logic?

And in case you didnt know...grass is a fast court...

grass is a fast court but compared to american hardcourts, then no. unless this is something i overlooked. i don't know how hingis did it but justine can't do it because she just likes slower pace. it just suits her game more. and most probably her game would adapt more should she be taller and more muscular.

BK4ever
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:49 PM
Juju is very talented but so is Serena...and even more so imo because she knows how to turn her talent into consistent wins...

What is the point of being able to hit all the shots in the book, if you have no idea of how to put them together to achieve consistent results...

Serena has lots of shots, she just doesnt use them all the time because she doesnt have to, because what she uses most...is fabulously executed and brings about the desired results...

Who uses more heavy top spin angles than Rena...who changes the direction of the ball better...who serves better, and if I might add, when she really gets under the ball...her slice is just as nice...

BK4ever
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:50 PM
grass is a fast court but compared to american hardcourts, then no. unless this is something i overlooked. i don't know how hingis did it but justine can't do it because she just likes slower pace. it just suits her game more. and most probably her game would adapt more should she be taller and more muscular.

I see you have managed to punch holes in your own theory...

DEETHELICK
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:51 PM
I think Justine has the better variety, so in terms of 'special' shots i.e. dropshot, slice, etc. Justine is the most talented in the Top 10 in respect to that.

But Serena's natural talent is her power, athleticism and precision groundies and serve (which are not easy to do).

Both girls are talented, just exceptionally talented in different areas.

And for Justine to be considered more talented that Serena overall, she has to win each Slam once at least.

:)

Hendouble
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:51 PM
Well, grass WAS a fast surface... you could argue that it ain't so fast nowadays, particularly with the Wimbledon results we had last year. Of course, that makes very little difference in the women's game, but the key for Henin is that grass is still a low-bouncing surface so she's taking the ball at a comfortable height. Her match with Seles at Wimbledon last year was very interesting for the comparison in groundstrokes - Seles liking a high bounce she can hit into does not cope at all well with low, skidding balls on her double-handed shots, hence the lack of a Wimbledon title.

Hendouble
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:53 PM
As I said above, Henin struggles with the high, floating topspin balls up around shoulder height - she likes playing with pace low off the ground. Having said that, she's also good at working points with her groundstrokes and moving opponents around, hence her equal liking for clay.

BK4ever
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:55 PM
I think Justine has the better variety, so in terms of 'special' shots i.e. dropshot, slice, etc. Justine is the most talented in the Top 10 in respect to that.

But Serena's natural talent is her power, athleticism and precision groundies and serve (which are not easy to do).

Both girls are talented, just exceptionally talented in different areas.

And for Justine to be considered more talented that Serena overall, she has to win each Slam once at least.

:)

This whole variety thing is overrated...Folks act like most players don't know how to volley, slice or dropshot...

Just because Justine uses these shots "more" does not make her more talented...

She uses these shots more often than most, because due to her game, she has to, but does that automatically make her more talented :confused:

1jackson2001
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:55 PM
The Williams sisters are poorly skilled players who would just make horrible coaches. The only reason they are on top is because of their manly physique. Let's face it, they are just terrible at volleying, slicing, lobs, drop shots, and most technical aspects of the game. If Henin or Hingis for example had their athleticism, height, and genetic build, they would have won 50 Grand Slams.

Venus terrible at volleying? What in the world are you on? She has damn good volleys and covers the net really well. She doesn't just slug at the baseline..she incorporate substantial amounts of net play and usually has great success rates up at net.

And both Serena and Venus have good placement as well.

CC
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:56 PM
But Justine made the Wimbledon finals, didn't she? :confused:

1jackson2001
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:58 PM
Yes, she did.

shap_half
Apr 15th, 2003, 12:05 AM
Maybe Justine mixes it up because she can not because she has to. If Serena is capable of doing it then why didn't she do it during finals! I mean people are easy to say that Serena doesn't show variety because she doesn't need to, well she looked like she needed it yesterday! Justine shows it because she can show that she has it and it's part of her game and people are more impressed with her because of it. I am not goint to disregard the talent of Serena but it doesn't hurt to have a couple of back shots so when she gets in trouble (like yesterday) she can dig herself out of her own hole!

ptkten
Apr 15th, 2003, 12:09 AM
I think the Williams sisters are the top at every category and are the best at any shot in the game out of anyone, except for Venus' second serve. Just because they don't sometimes use the variety in their matches doesn't mean they aren't good at the shots.

By the way, have any of you people ever played tennis on grass?? It is MUCH faster than hardcourts or any other surface.

SJW
Apr 15th, 2003, 12:11 AM
sorry i just wanted to say if you take the top three players in the world........

their name AINT Henin :):p

all play their OWN games and rarely mix it up

and the result? you got the tour dominators right there

who wants to bet that Justine wont be defeated in AI?

she mite not be, but shes not as good as for me to take up that bet.

shap_half
Apr 15th, 2003, 12:13 AM
I think the Williams sisters are the top at every category and are the best at any shot in the game out of anyone, except for Venus' second serve. Just because they don't sometimes use the variety in their matches doesn't mean they aren't good at the shots.

By the way, have any of you people ever played tennis on grass?? It is MUCH faster than hardcourts or any other surface.


OK then I'm totally wrong about the whole grass thing. But tell me, if the Williams sisters are so "the top of every category" then why don't they pull them out when they are losing. Do they like to lose? No!!! So why not show all the goods when they are down! When Venus lost to Shaughnessy, Venus did nothing to change it up, same with Serena yesterday! This is why i am hesistant to believe the Williams sisters are not just power and athleticism because when they are down they don't look like they're changing anything besides overpowering.

Infiniti2001
Apr 15th, 2003, 12:16 AM
shap_half , go watch a tape of henin vs Venus at AI last year and come back... For crying out loud no player can win all the time... Justine is soooooooooooo talented, how come she can't figure out how to beat Kim??? Enquiring minds want to know.

SJW
Apr 15th, 2003, 12:17 AM
oh please if the best in the world never lost, would sport be interesting?? :rolleyes:

you dont follow any other sports do you? there is NO SUCH THING as an undefeated professional team/player/etc

Mr. Man
Apr 15th, 2003, 12:19 AM
o0O0o *cough* ZERO is a moron. Much like selesrules.
As Rebecca said yesterday, "don't give this fetus more attention then he already has to himself". LMAO, :kiss: Becca.

shap_half
Apr 15th, 2003, 12:22 AM
it has nothing to do with being undefeated.

it has something to do with changing when change is neccessary. if a basketball player is being destroyed by another team they are not going to keep the same plan if they want to win. It's the same thing, when Serena saw that she wasy down 3-5 in the first set she should have already tried something different to try and salvage herself if that variety was available to her. Obviously her hardhitting moves weren't working, why keep it if there were alternative moves she is so good at that she is just keeping at bay because she hasn't the need for them.

and in AI, Venus did nothing; she got more confident and Justine self-destructed. Venus did the same "bang-bang-bang" she always does to defeat Justine. Her overpowering strokes and hitting harder than before is not variety.

Infiniti2001
Apr 15th, 2003, 12:26 AM
There are always those who will discredit the Williames, but guess what?? They'll keep on keeping to make them even more miserable.

Hendouble
Apr 15th, 2003, 12:36 AM
That's the problem with debating threads at wtaworld - sooner or later someone has to make it personal by attacking the other side. It's usually a Williams fan though... sorry, just had to slip in my own dig there.

Infiniti2001
Apr 15th, 2003, 12:42 AM
Hendouble , I take it you did not read this post by 5 0s :rolleyes:


The Williams sisters are poorly skilled players who would just make horrible coaches. The only reason they are on top is because of their manly physique. Let's face it, they are just terrible at volleying, slicing, lobs, drop shots, and most technical aspects of the game. If Henin or Hingis for example had their athleticism, height, and genetic build, they would have won 50 Grand Slams.

SerenaSlam
Apr 15th, 2003, 01:03 AM
I think it is very inane to say that Serena dictated the whole game. I'm sorry but my favorite shot of the whole game was when Serena hit a short ball and Justine hit it directly at Serena. It was fun to see just exactly how much Serena dictated that shot to come straigh to her face!
about that point, you seem to try and take the point till the very end, how did serena get to the net? I believe she was dictating that entire point, then she got to the net, hit a pop up volley, and justine then took over, by 1 shot, but the i believe after watching it 6 shots earlier, serena was running justine all over the court. you people kill me, that try to avoid the obvious!

ADVANTAGE-IN
Apr 15th, 2003, 01:14 AM
A Senior Member Is Making Comments Like "justine Is More Talented Than Serena"?? This Is The Example That We Set For New Posters!!?? No Wonder This Board Is Full Of Misguided Losers!!!! When Ever We Say That Venus Is More Talented Than Hingis, U All Scream "look At The Titles, Who Won More Grand Slams". Let's Apply The Same Rule Here, We All Know That Justine Couldn't Beat Serena On Any Other Surface, But She Did Win This Weekend!!

Volcana
Apr 15th, 2003, 01:24 AM
Of COURSE she is. Justine is more talented than Agassi and Hewitt combined.

UDiTY
Apr 15th, 2003, 01:28 AM
Nowadays tennis is played from the baseline..and who has better groundies on the women's side then the williams sisters?!?! Just hitting it hard won't make it go in with good placement. So they have great backhands and forehands while Justine and other players have good all court games.

Its all your strengths and weaknesses, but it is absolutely ludicrous to see that V&S have no talent, and that just because they are tall, quick, and great athletes are the only reasons they win.

I think the people that say they have no skill are just upset with the last couple years of domination. And plus zero, yer an anna fan. She can volley cuz she plays alot of doubles, but she is one the worst players technically I see, that's why her shots break down, I am not saying she is a bad player with no skill.

c2
Apr 15th, 2003, 03:01 AM
Please Fortis. You are foolin' yourself or smoking crack. I don't know ANYONE who'd say a player was more talented than Serena right now. And mind you I LOOOOOVVE Juju. But Serena was obviously off in that match. Somethign was wrong; I've never seen her play that way before! :eek: :confused:

aussiefan83
Apr 15th, 2003, 03:57 AM
serena hits the ball with power, everyone agrees with that. but she also places the ball so amazingly well, but people tend to overlook that simply because she is hitting it so hard. but in fact i believe this is an indication that she has more talent than any other player.

lizchris
Apr 15th, 2003, 04:31 AM
If the Williams sisters are poorly skilled players, can someone explain this to me (and correct me if I am wrong)?

Serena Williams
5 Grand Slam singles titles
6 Grand Slam ladeis doubles titles
2 Grand Slam mixed doubles titles
1 Olympic gold medal (2000 Sydney, ladies doubles)

Kim Clijsters
0 Grand Slam titles

Venus Williams
4 Grand Slam singles titles
6 Grand Slam ladeis doubles titles
2 Grand Slam mixed doubles titles
2 Olympic gold medals (2000 Sydney, singles and ladies doubles)

Justine Henin-Hardenne
0 Grand Slam titles

Lindsay Davenport
3 Grand Slam singles titles
2 Grand Slam ladeis doubles titles
1 Olympic gold medal (1996 Atlanta, singles)

Jennifer Capriati
3 Grand Slam singles titles
1 Olympic gold medal (1992 Barcelona, singles)

Amelie Mauresmo
0 Grand Slam titles

Chanda Rubin
1 Grand Slam mixed doubles title

Daniela Hantuchova
1 Grand Slam mixed doubles title

Anastasia Myskina
0 Grand Slam titles


From the looks of things, the sisters have had the most sucess at the Grand Slams out of all of the current top ten. Impressive since four of these players (Clijsters, Henin-Hardenne, Mauresmo and Rubin) won juniors Grand Slams trophies and the sisters never played on the juniors circut.

BigTennisFan
Apr 15th, 2003, 05:06 AM
I think the people that say they have no skill are just upset with the last couple years of domination.

This is the essence of this whole debate. Think about it. Serena had won 21 matches in a row before this loss. The people who don't like Serena have all of this pent up rage about her domination so when she loses (as she inevitably will at times) they are so elated that their emotions overshadow their brains and we get silly statements about "the Williams sisters' lack of talent". Just take it for what it is: pent up frustration spilling over. :D

Zenith
Apr 15th, 2003, 05:09 AM
This is what I think of this thread :rolleyes: . Just one win over a Williams and all hell broke loose. When you people give it up. Also by some of you guys definition if Marion Jones was a tennis player she would be dominating :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

GoGoMaggie
Apr 15th, 2003, 05:20 AM
this "who is more talented" debate is getting more and more pointless to me. What's the definition of "talent" in the first place? Can anyone tell me its clear definition? Aren't natural gifts such as athleticism and physical advantage part of talent?

Anyways, Justin certainly does have the edge over Serena in some departments of tennis..especially in the variety of shots she has, but there are many things Serena does better than Justine. If Serena were a poorly skilled player, no way would she come up with the serve she has. Power can backfire if you use it wrong and for you to make most of it, you need skills. Serena has the skills to maximize what she naturally has and that's no easy thing to do. and being tall isn't always a good thing as it takes siginificant mobility from a tall player. Well..Serena isn't that tall...but Venus..she's one of the tallest on the tour but nonetheless one of the fastest. Look at Davenport. She's as slow as a snail.. I think Venus has the skills to run fast albeit her height that's also no easy thing. Hitting balls isn't everything in tennis so we should not measure a player's skills just by their shot making. At the end of the day all that counts in tennis or in any sports is winning and hense a player must know what she needs to do with what she has whether it's naturally given or has been acquried. And the sisters do it the best and that's why they are dominating the game now. By that logic, Serena is more skilled than Justine.. We just have to let their racquets do the talks.

DunkMachine
Apr 15th, 2003, 05:30 AM
When I see 5o's posts, the words ignorant ass trailertrash comes to mind.........

{edit should be pleural}

Averylove
Apr 15th, 2003, 06:40 AM
Just Like Roach's They come out of the dark as soon as they get a false sense of hope ! The Serena haters was waiting for this day Like
Homeless People waiting on a Mircle :( They will say things like Serena has not talent , just Sheer Pychsical skills yada ,yada,yada all you have to do is watch Serena take the next three Slams this year which is going to happen anyway ! :drool: and Then watch Serena go into the History book's as wining the most slams in a row 7, and I bet the Serena haters will say she won because the balls used in the slams was Afrimative action ball's ;) it will never end So I laugh untill my tummy aches each time Serena win's a slam !

Serena writes the songs Dammit and don't you forget that !
nuff said son !

~ The Leopard ~
Apr 15th, 2003, 08:04 AM
When I see 5o's posts, the word ignorant ass trailertrash comes to mind.........

That's three words. :devil:

GoGoMaggie
Apr 15th, 2003, 08:16 AM
Just Like Roach's They come out of the dark as soon as they get a false sense of hope ! The Serena haters was waiting for this day Like
Homeless People waiting on a Mircle :( They will say things like Serena has not talent , just Sheer Pychsical skills yada ,yada,yada all you have to do is watch Serena take the next three Slams this year which is going to happen anyway ! :drool: and Then watch Serena go into the History book's as wining the most slams in a row 7, and I bet the Serena haters will say she won because the balls used in the slams was Afrimative action ball's ;) it will never end So I laugh untill my tummy aches each time Serena win's a slam !

Serena writes the songs Dammit and don't you forget that !
nuff said son !


There are always a couple of Willams fans who can't accept a Williams losing with grace. I seriously wonder if there wasn't for them, what the sisters would look like to me.....

Raisin
Apr 15th, 2003, 08:27 AM
Of COURSE she is. Justine is more talented than Agassi and Hewitt combined.
LMAO, I just spilled my coffee all over the place

servenrichie
Apr 15th, 2003, 01:51 PM
Okay Fortis, Hendouble, Henin is the most talented, but Serena is the champion. Can we just agree on that and quit the bickerings?:rolleyes:

oooo'S ban just got lifted, that's why he is back with his usual drivel :fiery:



By the way, congrats to Henin for winning this title.
My God, most of you think beating Serena is bigger than winning a top tier title :rolleyes:

servenrichie
Apr 15th, 2003, 02:00 PM
Shap_half wrote:
OK then I'm totally wrong about the whole grass thing. But tell me, if the Williams sisters are so "the top of every category" then why don't they pull them out when they are losing. Do they like to lose? No!!! So why not show all the goods when they are down! When Venus lost to Shaughnessy, Venus did nothing to change it up, same with Serena yesterday! This is why i am hesistant to believe the Williams sisters are not just power and athleticism because when they are down they don't look like they're changing anything besides overpowering.

Shap_half I am going to pretend your cognitive development is also not "shap_halved", else tell me how a so-called sports fan can reason that way.
Speak after me Shap_half:
'In Sports you cant win 'em all'.
Write that setence behind your ears (so you dont forget), when next you dabble into such a discussion :rolleyes:

Cybelle Darkholme
Apr 15th, 2003, 03:10 PM
Supposedly five zeros is a tennis player, but you never would know it by the amount of ingnorance he displays. Both venus and Serena incorporate volleys and drop shots. Serena slices, though rarely, and lobs, though rarely and almost always defensively when she does it.

Just because she doesn't lob or slice EVERY FREAKING point doesn't mean she can't do it. I hardly if it all have seen venus slice or lob but it doesnt mean she can't do it.

Yes justine has a ton of variety and she should sit down and pray and thank her god because if she didn't she wouldn't be top ten.

also for the life of me is womens tennis the only sport where some biased a$$holes hold being athletic against the players? How can anyone post in here and not see that every one in the top is ATHLETIC!NO one in the top ten could stay there without having endurance and strength! Speed can be worked for and enchanced so can strength and endurance and the only thing that can be thought of as gifts from god is height. Height is immutable you are either tall or short. And being tall is not neccessarily a good thing since shorter people have a lower sense of gravity and can move on the courts better. Height benefits the serve and net game and reach thats it.

five zeros is just pissed that two players that dont play 100 % "finesse" tennis is ruling the game. Well guess what? Jennifer does not play that way, monica never played that way, lindsay does not play that way, kim does not play that way. And kim does not even come close to the variety that justine and momo have.

Meg transformed herself because she knew that to be on top you HAVE TO BE WHAT EVERYONE SHOULD BE IN THE FIRST PLACE:ATHLETIC. Meg is faster more durable and full of energy compared to what she was. So please with all the moaning that everyone is slow and sloth like compare to the "natural gifts" of venus and serena. Sorry but if it was natural then sererna and venus wouldn't have to work out, and they could eat mcdonalds every day for every meal for a year. But guess what? THey can't because speed and endurance are not natural by any means it must be worked for and maintained. Any one who knows anything about sports knows this. Its not hard to grasp.

Venus and Serena rule the wta because they are complete players with the complete package both mentally, emotionally, physically, and skill wise.

Cybelle Darkholme
Apr 15th, 2003, 03:14 PM
it has nothing to do with being undefeated.

it has something to do with changing when change is neccessary. if a basketball player is being destroyed by another team they are not going to keep the same plan if they want to win. It's the same thing, when Serena saw that she wasy down 3-5 in the first set she should have already tried something different to try and salvage herself if that variety was available to her. Obviously her hardhitting moves weren't working, why keep it if there were alternative moves she is so good at that she is just keeping at bay because she hasn't the need for them.

and in AI, Venus did nothing; she got more confident and Justine self-destructed. Venus did the same "bang-bang-bang" she always does to defeat Justine. Her overpowering strokes and hitting harder than before is not variety.


Are you blind? Why is it that people only look at one match and try to make a case? Hello don't you remember serena changing tactics in the ao semi against kim? HELLO! Don't you remember venus changing tactics against justine at last years amelia island final? HELLO! No one is perfect and no one can be expected to do the right thing at the right time all the time. She should have changed tactics, she didn't, she lost. Don't sit there and act like justine hasn't lost time and time again by not doing something different because she has. EVERYONE HAS DONE THIS AND MOST LIKELY WILL DO IT AGAIN.

DunkMachine
Apr 15th, 2003, 03:18 PM
Thats exactly it Cybelle I bow to your nubian wisdom :worship: . Serena excells at groundstrokes and drive volleys so she rarely has to vary her shots.

Look at it like this, if you have the opper hand in allmost every rally and you can hit winners from every angle, than why would you want to slice and lob.

Serena lost because she has lazy footwork and therefore needlesly wacked the ball in the net too many times. Juju caught reena on a really bad day and everyone knows it.

The Crow
Apr 15th, 2003, 03:23 PM
I'm Justine fan, but syaing she is more talented than someone who has such a GS streak at the moment is just plain stupid, sorry.

Of course Justine can do things that Serena can't (or not as good), but it's the same the other way around. I would like to see Justine turn around a match against Kim like Serena did at Aus Open. That's talent too, as is the athleticism.

HellanSpicen
Apr 15th, 2003, 03:26 PM
Well if Henin is so talented how com she is number four. Kim Clisters is number three. I think the most talented players are usually the ones on top. I don't know if you guys have eyes, but aren't most players on the tour just baseliners. Does having more shots nesscarily mean your more talented. Monica Seles couldn't do much, but pound the ball from left to right. She never came to the net. Never sliced unless in trouble. Tell me one player who in the top ten has great variety other the maybe henin. Jennifer, Lindsey, Clisters, Daniella etc. The top players are thier for thier groundstrokes not thier slices, lobs, and volleying. Power will always overshadows lobs and slices. Kim Clisters is preety solid much more solid the Venus. You can have all the variety you want in the game, but if someone has poweful groundstokes your always going to get overpowered. When Monica Seles was on top noone was talking about her lack of variety. I think most players in the top ten would probably rank last in lobs, volleying, etc. Actually I think Chanda Rubin has a better all-around game then Venus and Serena, but she
doesn't have any major slams. if you think having variety means your more talented then so be it, but
if opponents overpower you won't get a chance. I think the players with the most variety are double players, but thier usually not good singles players either. On clay, she makes it look like she's more talented then Serena. If Serena beats her 6-2,6-2 on on other surfaces then obviously Serena will look better. I think the best game whether it's powerhitting or varitey can when. You just have to play your game effectively. Venus and Serena didn't start powerhiiting. If Venus and Serena weren't black they would be viewed like Capriati. Just having powerful groundstrokes. But since thier black more attention is focused on thier physical presence, thier natural genetic giifts and thier speed. You can have all the power you want, but you still have to put the ball in play and be mentally tough on important plays. It's just too easy to say thier power is the only reason why thier on top.


Jim Courier was physically fit, but not nesaasrily that talented as people say. His will and determination got him a couple of slams and number one players. Why isn't he bad-mouth for having just a hitting game and no variety. Surely thier were players more talented then him. His physiical condition was the product of hard word, but Venus and Serena is just genetic. So were they destined to be tennis players. They already have the god given talents to play. Thier speed was god-given,. Everything handed on a platter. All the had to do is swing a raquet and they are champions. You guys are ful of yourselves. They are the most talented platers cause they are on top. Usually the players who have variety have it, because thier weren't good baseliners so they had to work on others parts of thier game.
















Volleys
Drop Shots
Slicing
Defensive lobs
Offensive lobs
Placement
Shot consistence
SERVE*

As you can see, as far as skills are concerned they suck at everything except Serena's serve. Technically, Venus' sucks and would suck more if it weren't for her physical gifts.

It blows my mind that such trashy players can leap frog everyone just by running faster and hitting harder, but stranger stuff has happened.[/QUOTE]

JenCpLvr
Apr 15th, 2003, 07:58 PM
Being at the tounament and watching them both practice before the Final, it's obvious JuJu has more natural talent..

Don't get me wrong, I am not hatin' on Serena.. It's her style of play that has gotten her this far, but Justine has much more variety to her game which requires more natural ability. Serena plays a standard game of one-handed forehand, two-handed backhand, power. That's a style of game that is taught. Justine was taught her style as well, but I can almost guarantee that if Serena were taught to pay with some much variety, she wouldn't be as successful as JuJu.

With that said, Serena is the more physically strong player with winners that bruise Justine's.. But Justine is the more skill gifted.

Variety = more talent

DEETHELICK
Apr 15th, 2003, 08:51 PM
In reponse to BK4ever

I did not say nor discredit Serena's ability to slice, volley, etc. In fact, she hits the most amazing angles with her groundies these days.....

but Serena's natural talent lies in her power, shotmaking ability (i.e. precision) and athleticism.

Justine has more talent in relation to special shots, as not only does she have the variety, but she EXECUTES it better than most.

No doubt Justine's slice, volleys, dropshots, etc. are better executed than Serena's. Serena has the edge in her awesome, well placed groundstrokes.

I repeat, I'm NOT saying Serena doesn't have variety, therefore she is a less talented player, but I feel because Justine executes and has the natural ability to hit those shots BETTER gives her an edge over Serena in FUNK shots (I couldn't find a better word to encompass all the unusual shots)

WhatTheDeuce
Apr 15th, 2003, 08:55 PM
lmao first of all serena is alot more talented and thats the reason she has only 1 loss this year, leads the h2h with henin, has won the last 4 slams, and henin hasnt...secondly, if u think the sisters are only good cause of their physique you are crazy....these girls are strong, they run better then everyone, they have more power than everyone, they are mentally stronger than everyone, they both volley very well, both have superb serves, and both when they are playing well can hit the ball on a dime....these girls are talented and flot out AMAZING....thats the bottom line...

Cybelle Darkholme
Apr 15th, 2003, 09:26 PM
what is all this natural ability? Do you think these players just walk on court at two and were hitting all these shots? THEY TRAINED TO DO THIS!!! no matter how easy it looks they put thousands of hours into this! If it was so easy then everyone would be doing it!

o0O0o
Apr 15th, 2003, 11:05 PM
Laughing at all the posters who cannot read. I never doubted the talent of the sisters, I just doubt their skills. They have NONE! They are such talented athletes and so physically eclipsing that none of the other, more skilled girls have caught up. But when it comes to skills, the Williams sisters just don't have them. I am rather perplexed that they win all the time without any skills.

By the same token, it was rather perplexing that a 5'7, slow, weak counter-puncher could win 5 Slams. All this just shows the general weakness in the women's game. The top men, on the other hand, are all fast and strong and highly skilled at every part of the game.

Venus Forever
Apr 15th, 2003, 11:26 PM
So, the men are skilled for doing the same exact thing as the Williams sisters, but the Williams sisters are not??

The men's game is very similar to the women's, in that many of them just hit the hell out of the ball, using their muscles and strength. If anything, they hit the ball harder. So, how is that different from the Williams?? I don't get it.

Infiniti2001
Apr 15th, 2003, 11:28 PM
If constantly hitting the ball hard and keeping it in play, holding serve and backing it up with a sound return game, movement , court sense and strategic construction of points are not or don't require skills then the Williames are definitely robots. :rolleyes:

o0O0o
Apr 15th, 2003, 11:29 PM
So, the men are skilled for doing the same exact thing as the Williams sisters, but the Williams sisters are not??

The men's game is very similar to the women's, in that many of them just hit the hell out of the ball, using their muscles and strength. If anything, they hit the ball harder. So, how is that different from the Williams?? I don't get it.

Of course a naive bumpkin like yourself wouldn't get it, it's hard to get it if you don't read. The men are different from the Williams in that they hit it fast, run hard, and are skilled at every technical part of the game. I even went so far as to bold the difference for you.

J_Migoe
Apr 16th, 2003, 01:29 AM
ooooo...remove your father's dick from your ass before you say something...you sound more intelligent that way@!

Venus Forever
Apr 16th, 2003, 01:50 AM
Of course a naive bumpkin like yourself wouldn't get it, it's hard to get it if you don't read. The men are different from the Williams in that they hit it fast, run hard, and are skilled at every technical part of the game. I even went so far as to bold the difference for you.

And how is that, as they play the same game as the Williams sisters??

You know what I think the problem is with you, is that you are blind. The men are more apt in horning in on their "skills" like lobs, etc. because all the men are powerful, and hit the ball extremely hard, so they have to through in defenseive shots such as the lob due to the powerful shots of the opponents.

The Williams sisters are not as skillful in those areas because no one can blow them off CONSISTENTLY, and when they are put into defensive positions to put up a lob is a whole new territory, of course they're not going to have a perfect one, because they rarely ever have to use it. The men MUST use these shots to win.

You are just so blinded by your hatred for the sisters that you don't look at anything objectively. Foolishness.:rolleyes:

shap_half
Apr 16th, 2003, 02:06 AM
why isn't it that noone has answered me:

if the williams sisters are so gifted with the talent to produce variety in their game - and not just variety but well done varied skills - then how come they've never used them? and don't give me they never needed to because each have lost to another player (shaughnessy and henin-hardenne). i mean if their normal hard hitting and over powering tactics weren't working then isn't it just common sense to change their game to prevent themselves from losing? i mean if these arsenal of skills are available to them why not use them at time of danger?

someone explain to me why they've never shown these skills if they have them?

Venus Forever
Apr 16th, 2003, 02:08 AM
They don't need to use those skills. They win without them, so why change??

shap_half
Apr 16th, 2003, 02:14 AM
They don't need to use those skills. They win without them, so why change??


did u read what i said!?!??!

and don't give me they never needed to because each have lost to another player (shaughnessy and henin-hardenne). i mean if their normal hard hitting and over powering tactics weren't working then isn't it just common sense to change their game to prevent themselves from losing? i mean if these arsenal of skills are available to them why not use them at time of danger?

Venus Forever
Apr 16th, 2003, 02:21 AM
But see, what you don't seem to understand is that when the Williams lose, it's not like they lose because the other player is blowing them off the court. You normally use such plays as lobs, dropshots, slices, whatever when the player is really blowing you off the court (as in the case of Henin-Hardenne on Saturday.) They are mostly defensive shots, and the Williams are rarely on the defensive.

As for volleys, they only come in when they want to. They rather bang it away from the baseline.

I's just not their style of game. They are power-hitters, just like Davenport. They are not going to lob, slice, dropshot, or volley unless they have to or decide out of the blue they want to.:rolleyes:

Infiniti2001
Apr 16th, 2003, 02:25 AM
shap_half , answer the same question for me, substitute the Williames with Kim re Miss talent justin :p

Cybelle Darkholme
Apr 16th, 2003, 02:38 AM
why isn't it that noone has answered me:

if the williams sisters are so gifted with the talent to produce variety in their game - and not just variety but well done varied skills - then how come they've never used them? and don't give me they never needed to because each have lost to another player (shaughnessy and henin-hardenne). i mean if their normal hard hitting and over powering tactics weren't working then isn't it just common sense to change their game to prevent themselves from losing? i mean if these arsenal of skills are available to them why not use them at time of danger?

someone explain to me why they've never shown these skills if they have them?


SOMEONE ALREADY ANSWERED YOU!!! you just refuse to listen like five zeros

Serena uses slices, serena volleys and drop shots, serena rarely lobs defensively and I have never seen her lob offensively. Does she do this as much as justine or momo OF COURSE NOT BECAUSE ITS NOT HER A GAME plan.

Venus uses volleys and drop shots but rarely lobs and very very rarely slices. Does she do these things as much as justine and Momo? NO because its NOT HER A GAME!!!

I have been watching the sisters since 97 and I have many many many matches on tape so please excuse me if I straight up call you and five zeros liars because you are.

Now just because a player doesnt have or uses all the shots they know or just because certain shots are less skilled than others does that mean they are less talented? NO. Because tennis is way more than shot and atheleticism, TENNIS IS MENTAL. If you do not have the belief and fortitude and determination then it doesn't matter how many shots you have or how fast you are or how strong you are. I am so sick of this pathetic pack of untruths people like you two perpetrate.

Funny how monica is never mentioned in these little scenarios or lindsay or jennifer or even kim. Monica can't even spell volley she uses them so infrequently and lindsay and jen are TOTAL BASELINERS. Yet curiously five zeros and people like yourself don't bring them up, even though jen has crushed justine how many times? Kim has about half the shots Justine has yet how many times has kim crushed justine?

Also momo is one of THE FITTEST players on tour. Shes so strong didnt martina and lindsay call her man like (which was horrible)? She also has the shots, the variety, yet where are her wins over the very top? Where are her grandslams? Lucic is the hardest hitter I've ever seen WHERE ARE HER TITLES AND GRANDSLAMS?

I swear some of you are just plain backwards or have water on the brain with your endless loop of repeating lies. Do your lies make you feel better when your favorite loses?

I guess it does.

Infiniti2001
Apr 16th, 2003, 02:51 AM
You tell 'em Miss Cybelle :kiss: :wavey: :bounce: :fiery:

shap_half
Apr 16th, 2003, 03:05 AM
SOMEONE ALREADY ANSWERED YOU!!! you just refuse to listen like five zeros

Serena uses slices, serena volleys and drop shots, serena rarely lobs defensively and I have never seen her lob offensively. Does she do this as much as justine or momo OF COURSE NOT BECAUSE ITS NOT HER A GAME plan.

Venus uses volleys and drop shots but rarely lobs and very very rarely slices. Does she do these things as much as justine and Momo? NO because its NOT HER A GAME!!!

I have been watching the sisters since 97 and I have many many many matches on tape so please excuse me if I straight up call you and five zeros liars because you are.

Now just because a player doesnt have or uses all the shots they know or just because certain shots are less skilled than others does that mean they are less talented? NO. Because tennis is way more than shot and atheleticism, TENNIS IS MENTAL. If you do not have the belief and fortitude and determination then it doesn't matter how many shots you have or how fast you are or how strong you are. I am so sick of this pathetic pack of untruths people like you two perpetrate.

Funny how monica is never mentioned in these little scenarios or lindsay or jennifer or even kim. Monica can't even spell volley she uses them so infrequently and lindsay and jen are TOTAL BASELINERS. Yet curiously five zeros and people like yourself don't bring them up, even though jen has crushed justine how many times? Kim has about half the shots Justine has yet how many times has kim crushed justine?

Also momo is one of THE FITTEST players on tour. Shes so strong didnt martina and lindsay call her man like (which was horrible)? She also has the shots, the variety, yet where are her wins over the very top? Where are her grandslams? Lucic is the hardest hitter I've ever seen WHERE ARE HER TITLES AND GRANDSLAMS?

I swear some of you are just plain backwards or have water on the brain with your endless loop of repeating lies. Do your lies make you feel better when your favorite loses?

I guess it does.

1. You do not call people you do not know liars. I don't care if you've seen them 84,000 times just because people refuse to believe what you've got to say does not mean they are lying. Get over yourself.

2. The thread is between Serena and Jutine. You're the only fool to not have seen that. I don't know why Venus got dragged into this but probably because just like Serena, Venus uses a very similar game. Anyway, no one is bringing up Monica or Jen or Lindsay because clearly the thread has turned into the poorly composed arsenal of skills the Williams sisters have.

3. You've said it all. It is not part of the Williams sisters game to include more finese shots because they do not have them. What kind of fool who has the ability to choose other shots to make themselves less predictable and vulnerable doesn't use them at a time of danger unless they don't have them!?!?!? If it's their game plan to use the bang and hit strategy eventhough it's not working while there are alternative shots available to them that they are also good at, then it's either their stupid and lucky or everyone else has not caught up that they will not change what they are doing.

this is done

lizchris
Apr 16th, 2003, 03:17 AM
Laughing at all the posters who cannot read. I never doubted the talent of the sisters, I just doubt their skills. They have NONE! They are such talented athletes and so physically eclipsing that none of the other, more skilled girls have caught up. But when it comes to skills, the Williams sisters just don't have them. I am rather perplexed that they win all the time without any skills.

By the same token, it was rather perplexing that a 5'7, slow, weak counter-puncher could win 5 Slams. All this just shows the general weakness in the women's game. The top men, on the other hand, are all fast and strong and highly skilled at every part of the game.

The now retired Martina Hingis was able to win because she had NO competition. When she did, you saw how she stopped winning Grand Slams, which is what chased her out of the game, not her health.

Venus Forever
Apr 16th, 2003, 03:32 AM
2. The thread is between Serena and Jutine. You're the only fool to not have seen that. I don't know why Venus got dragged into this but probably because just like Serena, Venus uses a very similar game. Anyway, no one is bringing up Monica or Jen or Lindsay because clearly the thread has turned into the poorly composed arsenal of skills the Williams sisters have.

3. You've said it all. It is not part of the Williams sisters game to include more finese shots because they do not have them. What kind of fool who has the ability to choose other shots to make themselves less predictable and vulnerable doesn't use them at a time of danger unless they don't have them!?!?!? If it's their game plan to use the bang and hit strategy eventhough it's not working while there are alternative shots available to them that they are also good at, then it's either their stupid and lucky or everyone else has not caught up that they will not change what they are doing.

In response to #2, you answered your own question. Venus, Serena, Lindsay, Jennifer, AND Monica play the same game. Rarely do you see lobs, ventures to the net, dropshots, etc.

In response to #3, you still don't get it. It's not that they don't have them, because they do, it's because they don't need to use them. Just because you have these tools, doesn't mean you will win a match, or draw a match close by using these "tools." The Williams sisters main tool is to hit the ball hard and deep. You don't resort to other things when they fail. Just like all former top players, you don't resort to not playing your game, you continue to pound away until you do find your rhythm or patience in Serena's case.

You keep saying that they should change when losing, but no one should, no matter who you are. Justine is not going to change her slice and dice game when she is missing, say against Serena, and try to outslug her, although she has the tools to pound away at some. It's because it's not her game to out-slug the Williams. They are too powerful for her, and it's a lose-lose situation. Reverting from your style of play would be disasterous.

There should be mixing up of play to confuse your opponent, and that is used by everyone. Venus, Serena, Monica, Lindsay, WHOEVER, always throw in a mix-up play here and there, by throwing in a dropshot, slice, or net adventure. I remember quite a few points where Serena actually served and volleyed. But to continue that play is just stupid.

If you don't understand anything in this post, you're a lost cause.:rolleyes:

GoGoMaggie
Apr 16th, 2003, 03:40 AM
It's a plain retarded thing to say the sisters have no skills. Someone who made this dumb thing, do you seriously think you can make the best tennis player in the universe with natural gifts or physical strengths? Oh c'mon give me a fuckin break, dude. You seem to have been following tennis quite a while from what you have said but seem incapable of anything that makes even the slightest sense. I feel a pity for you. Or else you better see an eye doctor to have your bloody eyes checked.
Anyways, it's just impossible to say who's is more talented, Justine or Serena. It is impossible..especially considering they are playing at the highest level of the game. The difference should be subtle if there's any. Talent is something invisible in my opinion. and some ppl sound as if talent = skills.. that's simply bullshit. Having a more variety in shots means the player is more talented?? Where the hell does the idea come from?? shot variation is just one of the facets in tennis. I don't deny Justine can make more various shots than Serena, but there are many things Justine doesn't have and yet Serena has. and they are not just power and naturally gifted stuff. I don't think Justine would be too much better a player if she had Serena's physical strengths and athletic abilities. cuz as I said before it takes tons of fuckin skills to use them to your advantage. Some players have as much power and physically gifted as Serena but they are no where even close to Serena rankings wise. For instance, Stevenson is probably in the same league as Serena as far as her physcial strengths go. But tennis wise she's eons behind Serena. The reason is as obvious as why Bush is called a moron by many. Serena knows exactly how she can be the best she can with what she has. She does have some natural gifts some other do not have but then again it's her to have learnt to use them as well as she does throught a lot of hard work. Who cares how talented the world no.1 player is as long as she keeps winning one match and another?? In my opinion saying Serena is more talented than Justine is more "just"tine.

Cybelle Darkholme
Apr 16th, 2003, 04:15 AM
1. You do not call people you do not know liars. I don't care if you've seen them 84,000 times just because people refuse to believe what you've got to say does not mean they are lying. Get over yourself.

2. The thread is between Serena and Jutine. You're the only fool to not have seen that. I don't know why Venus got dragged into this but probably because just like Serena, Venus uses a very similar game. Anyway, no one is bringing up Monica or Jen or Lindsay because clearly the thread has turned into the poorly composed arsenal of skills the Williams sisters have.

3. You've said it all. It is not part of the Williams sisters game to include more finese shots because they do not have them. What kind of fool who has the ability to choose other shots to make themselves less predictable and vulnerable doesn't use them at a time of danger unless they don't have them!?!?!? If it's their game plan to use the bang and hit strategy eventhough it's not working while there are alternative shots available to them that they are also good at, then it's either their stupid and lucky or everyone else has not caught up that they will not change what they are doing.

this is done

The only thing I find obvious is that you dont comprehend what was said to to you. Go ahead keep posting with blinders on because it just means you are to be ignored.

1. If you come on here and say that serena and venus do not drop shot and volley. Yes i will call you a liar because I HAVE PROOF ON TAPE THAT THEY DO THESE THINGS! Do you not understand that? Am I not expressing myself clearly to you? Do you need me to form simple sentences? So either you are a liar or you do not have enough information which makes you ignorant on the subject. So I'll take back the accusation of liar because truly you do seem ignorant to me.

2. Great the thread is between serena and justine. I however chose to add in other examples to make my case. Are you the thread nazi now waiting to strike down anyone who contradicts your house of cards argument?

3. Are those shots part of their overall game plan? No. Are those shots in their arsenal waiting to be used when absolutely necessary? YES. When only a drop shot will do or if the moment demands it serena and venus will drop shot or volley. When serena needs more time to get back in postion she will slice changing things up to get back the time she needs.

Also everyone can have a plan or back up plan but not everyone puts it into action even though they may know they should. You make it sound so simple and easy but I think you have never played a competive sport because if you had you would know that its like apples and oranges between planning a strategy and then employing it 100% of the time in every situation when you are in the middle of a match. No one is perfect. Witness Kim going down in the ao, witness justine going down in amelia island last year, witness chanda going down in us open quarters, I can go and on.

persond
Apr 16th, 2003, 04:20 AM
:cool: Well as long as they continue to beat the more "talented" players at the major events, who gives a "rats azz" about people recognizing whether or not they have talent"!!! And, for all the more "talented" players who haven't won a slam, I say kudos the "untalented" Sisters who have won slams!!! :p :p :p


Goooooo "Untalented" Sisters...!!!

Venus Forever
Apr 16th, 2003, 04:21 AM
LoL :D

c2
Apr 16th, 2003, 06:13 AM
please just ignore this shap_half or whatever the h*** his name is cause he's just talkin out his ass; not even worth the time. AND I'M NOT EVEN A VENUS SERENA FAN (not primarily)

servenrichie
Apr 16th, 2003, 07:25 AM
I swear his cognitive development was also "shap_halved", which is a diplomatic way of saying he is retarded

Hardiansf
Apr 16th, 2003, 09:40 AM
LOL @ persond :wavey:
And yes... Go Williams "Untallented" Sisters! :bounce:

irma
Apr 16th, 2003, 09:42 AM
I am glad that things have gone back to normal;)

Chance
Apr 16th, 2003, 10:16 AM
I see oooo aka small balls is back... and I see he is still bitter and twisted. Cheer up maybe one day you will get laid.

Cybelle you rock!


Of course Justine is talented and you're a proud fan and you want to highlight Justine's capabilities but why must you put Serena down in the process?

Then again why the hell am I asking that question-old habits die hard!

BasicTennis
Apr 16th, 2003, 10:16 AM
Serena has grandslams to none of Justine....Justine's talent is not good enough to win a grandslam eh?:devil:

eshell
Apr 16th, 2003, 08:55 PM
<sigh>

oOOOo strikes again.

No tennis player has 'natural' abilities to play tennis. I always laugh when I read 5 Os comments about Venus and Serena's natural abilities. If knowing how to win tennis matches somehow was shown to be a part of humankind's evolutionary path, then I would allow that 'natural abilities' would take one far on the WTA.

I haven't been a member of this board for long and the same inane discussion about the Williams' lack of skills has resurfaced.



The Williams' Sisters had to learn the technical aspects of the game, just as other players had to learn. In fact, they had several tutors: Rick Macci, N. Bolletieri (sp?).

The Sisters have many skills including their early racquet preparation (for a specific example). If they only hit the ball hard without proper placement, their results would be much worse.

Until talent is quantifiable, this argument has no clear winner.

BigTennisFan
Apr 16th, 2003, 09:18 PM
What kind of fool who has the ability to choose other shots to make themselves less predictable and vulnerable....

Perhaps the kind that holds 9 grandslam singles titles between them. :p :D