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View Full Version : Should Monica's stats be split into two?


tyk101
Apr 14th, 2003, 03:42 PM
should Monica's stats and results be split into 2? i.e. pre stabbing and after stabbin?

does anyone have these stats and could post them? could be interesting to see the difference in her two tennis careers???

saki
Apr 14th, 2003, 03:47 PM
Possibly. I think Jen's should be too, though

tyk101
Apr 14th, 2003, 03:49 PM
but jenny didn't get stabbed.. she went off the rails on her own accord and not by some deranged fan.

saki
Apr 14th, 2003, 03:53 PM
No, but her career definitely falls into two halves in the same way. Stats from the first half of her career don't make much sense to look that closely at now, which is a little confusing.

selesrules
Apr 14th, 2003, 03:56 PM
Jennifer Capriati has ONE career that SHE ruined somewhere along the way.

However Monica Seles' career was destroyed by some Graf psycho and it has ruined her mentality and career and it was NOT her choice to have TWO careers.

So NO, Capriati's career shouldn't be seperated because whatever she did it's her own doings, everything was her choice.

saki
Apr 14th, 2003, 04:12 PM
For God's sake, people, I'm not saying that Jen & Monica's careers fall into two halves for the same reasons. I'm just saying that for convenience of reference when it comes to looking at stats it would be nice if both players had the two halves of their careers separated.

disposablehero
Apr 14th, 2003, 04:40 PM
First of all, we throw out the Maleeva "match" entirely. Anyhow:

Pre: 253-29 8 Slams, a little over 30 titles in total.
Post: 348-91 1 Slam, about 20 titles.

Volcana
Apr 14th, 2003, 05:15 PM
I would NOT split Monica's stats. But if you're going to get into that, splitting other players stats as well is perfectly vaild.

As I understand it, Monica was physically healed and able to play again in a couple months. Not playing for the additional two years was a choice Monica made. Corina Morariu didn't choose to get cancer. But it sure interrupted her career.

Yes Monica was the victim of a crime. That doesn't give her some kind of 'statistical dispensation'. Monica doesn't ask for special treatment. Why do some of her fans keep trying to force it on her?

danra
Apr 14th, 2003, 05:17 PM
Yet again, Volcana proves to be the voice of reason.

The Crow
Apr 14th, 2003, 05:38 PM
What Volcana said. Plus I think it would be unrespectful to Monica's will to fight back and to have a great overall career despite the stabbing.

oggie
Apr 14th, 2003, 06:21 PM
253-29 is a very impressive record. Compare that to current Serena's 222-41 record.

Volcana
Apr 14th, 2003, 08:07 PM
BTB, what do you get if you split her career?

Not-quite-Maureen Connolly, and a one-slam wonder.

Leave it as is, and you have oe of the ten best careers of all time.

I think the latter is more indicative of Monica.

coolio
Apr 14th, 2003, 08:15 PM
First of all, we throw out the Maleeva "match" entirely. Anyhow:

Pre: 253-29 8 Slams, a little over 30 titles in total.
Post: 348-91 1 Slam, about 20 titles.
thx...........
absolutely......refering to pre-injury and post-injury,
the injuries that Monica received had to have taken a lot
out of her.........so people will always recognize it....
i would also split JenC's career to pre-stoned....and post-stoned...:)

selesrules
Apr 14th, 2003, 08:48 PM
If anyone's career should be split, it's Steffi's career. Pre-stabbing and post-stabbing.

1988-1989: in her prime, Graf wins 8 slams.

1990-1993: MONICA arrives and dominates the tour. Steffi was past her prime and won only 3 slams in 3 years (only 1 slam with Monica entered, Monica has 3-1 record in grandslam finals over Graf). Steffi was THE PAST, a clear #2.

1993-1996: All of a sudden there's the stabbing and Steffi is again #1 and wins 10 slams in 3 years :rolleyes:

What bullshit.

graf630
Apr 14th, 2003, 09:07 PM
Get over it!!

graf630
Apr 14th, 2003, 09:11 PM
Monica is and always will be a champion.Splitting up her career would take away from a great champion. Volcana said it best.

irma
Apr 14th, 2003, 09:14 PM
people who are interested in stats see the difference anyway so there is no need to put two monica's on itf!

Fortis
Apr 14th, 2003, 10:56 PM
Monica Seles and her unforgiving nature and her fans have turned me off women's tennis. Seles, Deford amd the fans here should acknowleldge that Seles came back and was as good as she was before... sweeping all before her until the US Open in 1995. Then she won the Australian open. But then unfortunately her father and mentor died and she was beset by injuries over and over again ..or so we were told. So how does one factor in the death of her father and the multitudes of injuries she reportedly has had??? She chose to stay away for two years as Navratilova said back then..Seles could have come back long before she did but she didn't.

CJ07
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:01 PM
Dang Monica had a 90% winning percentage before the stabbing!
Thats just under Chris Everts

But no, they shouldnt be split.

Monica_Rules
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:02 PM
I am a huge Monica fan and i'm angry at what happened to Monica but we must move on.Maybe steffi shouldn't have won all those slams but she did end of story!

And no monicas stats should not be split!

darren cahill
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:05 PM
1990-1993: MONICA arrives and dominates the tour. Steffi was past her prime and won only 3 slams in 3 years (only 1 slam with Monica entered, Monica has 3-1 record in grandslam finals over Graf). Steffi was THE PAST, a clear #2.


i bet LOTS of players would love to be 'the past---a clear # 2 (like thats a BAD thing)' with 1 slam a year for 3 years...i bet Capriati would take that, Davenport too...

Fortis
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:12 PM
I am sorry about what happened to Seles. But I have no time to waste my emotions on this. She chose not to get involved in the trial when asked to do so by the German authorities and years later she joins with Frank Deford and others in painting herself as a victim who was given no opportunity for recourse.

Her career should not be divided in two unless one factors in her father's passing, etc. Do we do that for other players or does saint monica receive a special dispensation??.Actually I feel sorry for Seles and those who attempt to manipulate her and the 1993 incident. It sure is funny that she and others spoke so little about the 1993 incident until Graf retired and received an outpouring of public support. It really is pathetic. JUst remembering that an in-form Seles was made to look pedestrian at Wimbledon 1992.

and..didn't GRAF BEAT SELES in the semi-finals on her way to winning the French open in 1999.

saki
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:47 PM
I just think that when it comes to players who've taken a break of longer than a couple of years in the middle of their careers, it's more illuminating statisically to see the career stats divided as well as altogether. I don't think this is an issue about Monica and the stabbing at all. :confused:

CondiLicious
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:55 PM
I am sorry about what happened to Seles. But I have no time to waste my emotions on this.

Really? You have no time? Then why do you only ever post here in the topics about Monica and the stabbing and Steffi? Because you're obsessed with it! You're obsessed with making Monica look like a frickin manipulative bitch! Loser!

Julian
Apr 14th, 2003, 11:58 PM
On Seles' absense from 93-95 there were 10 grand slams and Steffi won 6 of them! Now I agree that she benefited a lot from Monica's absense but didn't Steffi have a major back injury in late 94 to early 95? So that might have hampered her record as well, and of course her 1st round loss at 94 Wimbledon has got to be one of the weirdest moments in history lol so I think Steffi could have won more! So I don't think she took full advantage, plus Arantxa was different in 94-95 then she was pre-93 she was a whole better player and that had something to do with it as well...BUT then you have Gaby who wasn't the same in 94-95 so damn Steffi had an advantage there too..!! lol

Fortis
Apr 15th, 2003, 12:04 AM
Yes, I think Seles is manipulative..and even more so are her fans. Anyone with a shred of intelligence can figure that out in two seconds.

Now onto the topic of the thread. I don't think her career should be divided. She was a great player prior to 1993 and was a great player after 1995 and beyond. The tour was not stagnant during her absence. Please note the general improvement of Aranxta Sanchez-Vicario.

selesrules
Apr 15th, 2003, 12:10 AM
When a Graf fan stabbed Monica, he gave us the right to discuss Graf's fake accomplishements that followed it. She was a nobody between 1990-1993 compared to Monica. Do you hear that? WE HAVE THE RIGHT. You are the one who's manipulating things, everyone from Evert, Navratilova, Collins, Corillo, Shriver, McEnrore have said a million times that the stabbing had a HUGE effect on tennis history and especially Steffi. So live with it, it's a FACT. And it's not Monica's or her fans' fault, it's the fault of a Graf fan and all the rest of the Graf fans like you who support his crime by acting as if nothing happened.

Spirit
Apr 15th, 2003, 01:26 AM
Hi, Fortis! I see the words "Monica Seles" brought you out of your hole again.

She chose not to get involved in the trial when asked to do so by the German authorities and years later she joins with Frank Deford and others in painting herself as a victim who was given no opportunity for recourse.

Nope. I refuted this already, (http://www.wtaworld.com/showthread.php?postid=1490295#post1490295) back in that other post which you've already ignored twice, now, because it presents facts contrary to your worldview.

It sure is funny that she and others spoke so little about the 1993 incident until Graf retired and received an outpouring of public support.

Nope. Long before Graf's 1999 retirement, Monica gave plenty of interviews about her comeback and the stabbing, without once painting herself as a helpless victim. Helpless victims don't put tragedy behind them and come back, which is what she did, as everyone but you has clearly noticed. She also published her autobiography in 1996, three years before Graf's retirement. In fact, she cut way back on the interviews in the late 1990's -- around the time of Graf's retirement -- because she was tired of talking about the stabbing and wanted to move on. This is common knowledge, Fortis.

Once again, Fortis, while everyone else simply renders opinions, you state things about Monica which are blatantly untrue, and once again, I have presented facts which conflict with your world view.

One day, you may even realize that. :)

faboozadoo15
Apr 15th, 2003, 01:58 AM
also, fortis must be a little blind if he thinks that an "in-form" seles walked out onto the court in the 92 wimbledon final... what a joke. people tried to tear her down, and she let them. she would have learned from it and not let it bother her if she would have had the chance...

also, i don't think monica's career should be divided into two. she has accomplished so much in both parts.

LOL!!!! at all this crap about "great improvements in arantxa" while monica was gone and how the tour was not stagnant. what a bunch of bull! monica has a 21-3 record against arantxa, and she was 11-2 once she came back. check the ratings of womens tennis from 94-95; they were the lowest ever in the last 2 decades. women's tennis was still RECOVERING up until 2000 from this tragedy.

OH YES!!! and lets compare corina morariu's career to monica's!!! i love corina, but please people. monica was a DOMINATOR not just an awesome doubles partner of lindsay davenport. it's also easier to come back psychologically for someone who has a devastating illness than it is for someone to come back after being stabbed on the court for simply dominating the game.

Sam L
Apr 15th, 2003, 02:03 AM
Pre: 253-29 8 Slams, a little over 30 titles in total.
Post: 348-91 1 Slam, about 20 titles.

It hurts to read these stats :sad:

Yes Monica was the victim of a crime. That doesn't give her some kind of 'statistical dispensation'. Monica doesn't ask for special treatment. Why do some of her fans keep trying to force it on her?

:( If you even liked Monica one bit, you wouldn't have said that. Of course she's not going to go around asking for special treatment but as objective fans of tennis we all should know better and give her a position she deserves.

irma
Apr 15th, 2003, 07:09 AM
I don't understand the special treatment?

yeah the splitting stats but stats are always made about a year and people can see how monica did pre 30 april 93 and afterwards

so what special treatment do you people want?

say she won 20 + slams instead of 9?

I think there is no need to change stats in order to give monica the position she deserves. it's a little unrespectfull for monica's fight to overcome her fear and come back too like it meant nothing since she didn't dominate anymore. jmho

stefanieforever
Apr 15th, 2003, 08:34 AM
When a Graf fan stabbed Monica, he gave us the right to discuss Graf's fake accomplishements that followed it. She was a nobody between 1990-1993 compared to Monica. Do you hear that? WE HAVE THE RIGHT. You are the one who's manipulating things, everyone from Evert, Navratilova, Collins, Corillo, Shriver, McEnrore have said a million times that the stabbing had a HUGE effect on tennis history and especially Steffi. So live with it, it's a FACT. And it's not Monica's or her fans' fault, it's the fault of a Graf fan and all the rest of the Graf fans like you who support his crime by acting as if nothing happened.
i agree with you completely:devil: After stabing,all champions of wta was fake ,and the tennis sports should be canceled because all competions were meaningless and faking .seles could have won all champions and her would not decline if not the stabing had happened.

bandabou
Apr 17th, 2003, 01:47 PM
I think everyone knows and must agree that without stabbing Steffi wouldn't have won that many slams and Monica would have won more. It's sad that they couldn't settle it on court, but that a madman settled it instead. Nothing you can do about it. The Steffi-fans like things like they are now, so that's why they won't hear anything about it.

The people who say that Monica could have comeback sooner. Well, if I was UNDISPUTED no.1 at the time and a fan of another player stabbed me on a tenniscourt and still all my "colleagues"voted against me retaining my world no.1 ranking. That was such a disgraceful thing!!!!!
And then want to call the sisters arrogant?! If the sisters are arrogant than those players aren't even human being!!

Hopefully the stabbing won't stop Monica of making the Hall of Fame. She truely deserves it, more if you think what could have....