PDA

View Full Version : don't you find it funny that...........


Havok
Mar 19th, 2003, 04:44 AM
Clijsters just won her very first tier I title while Jelena Dokic has already won 2 and won them 2 years ago. i dunno i just find that really odd because i though kim has always been ranked higher than Jelena, except for when she had a coaching change in the middle of last year and Jelena hit a hot streak patch. Kima has won one and been in 1 more final, while Jelena won 2 and has been in i think 1 or 2 other finals for a Tier I. so why doesn everyone write Jelena off. i know that her current form is CRAP, and i'm admitting it, but don't you think they shoudl count Jelena in for winning a Tier I title since she has already 2 or them, and got them at such a youn age of 18. just a though, what do you think?

DutchieGirl
Mar 19th, 2003, 04:47 AM
Clijsters just won her very first tier I title while Jelena Dokic has already won 2 and won them 2 years ago. i dunno i just find that really odd because i though kim has always been ranked higher than Jelena, except for when she had a coaching change in the middle of last year and Jelena hit a hot streak patch. Kima has won one and been in 1 more final, while Jelena won 2 and has been in i think 1 or 2 other finals for a Tier I. so why doesn everyone write Jelena off. i know that her current form is CRAP, and i'm admitting it, but don't you think they shoudl count Jelena in for winning a Tier I title since she has already 2 or them, and got them at such a youn age of 18. just a though, what do you think?

I think part of the reason people have been writing Jelena off is in the first part of your post... Jelena won her Tier 1's 2 yers ago, while Kim's are more recent, and Kim's performances have been more consistant. I'm not saying that I write Jelena off by any means, but Jelena did used to play a hell of alot of tourneys, and with this ranking system it can help with your ranking.

Gowza
Mar 19th, 2003, 04:51 AM
i agree that people shouldn't write off jelena but you have to admit that the competition (mainly because now the williams sisters are so much better than they were back then) was easier when dokic won hers. it is no excuse for kim not to have won any at that time.

and i think you are right in saying kim has always been ranked higher than jelena.

DutchieGirl
Mar 19th, 2003, 04:51 AM
Plus, don't forget that Kim has been in the final of a GS... Jelena is yet to do that!

vs1
Mar 19th, 2003, 04:51 AM
I think that the WTA Champs is worth at least a Tier One. Sure, it doesn't start with as many opponents, but every round is a tough round. So I don't think that I would consider Indian Wells Kim's biggest title. Anyhow, I see more Tier 1's and some GS in Kimmy's future!

1jackson2001
Mar 19th, 2003, 04:57 AM
You are right Naldo..but what you are saying is in the same line as saying Martina N. should be counted as a heavy favorite if she were to enter singles tournies now...because she won 18 slams after all....years ago. ;)

That said, I never count Jelena out..it's just that she needs to convince the doubters she still has it in her.

Asmus
Mar 19th, 2003, 05:01 AM
In the two tier Is that Jelena won, I think she only beat one top ten player (Mauresmo in Rome) and even then Amelie was exhausted.

DutchieGirl
Mar 19th, 2003, 05:15 AM
OK... this is from the WTATour highlights:Kim

CAREER HIGHLIGHTS
SINGLES Winner (12 WTA Tour): 2003 - Sydney (T2), Indian Wells(T1);
2002 - Season-Ending Championships, Hamburg(T2), Filderstadt(T2), Luxembourg(T3);
2001 - Stanford(T2), Leipzig(T2), Luxembourg (T3);
2000 - Hobart(T5), Leipzig(T2);
1999 - Luxembourg (T3)

Finalist (9): 2003 - Antwerp(T2), Scottsdale(T2);
2002 - Stanford(T2), Tokyo [Princess Cup](T2);
2001 - Roland Garros(GS), Indian Wells(T1), ’s-Hertogenbosch(T3);
2000 - Filderstadt(T2);
1999 - Bratislava(T5).

Jelena

SINGLES Winner (5): 2002 - Sarasota(T4), Birmingham(T3);
2001 - Italian Open(T1), Tokyo [Princess Cup](T3), Moscow(T1).

Finalist (6): 2002 - Paris Indoors(T2), Strasbourg(T3), San Diego(T1);
2001 - Bahia, Zurich(T1), Linz(T2).

Plus for GS's, Kim has 1xF, 2xSF, and 2xQF. Jelena has onle 1xSF, and 2xQF! Kim has won alot of Tier 2 or reached the finals in alot of Tier 2 tourneys. Jelena has won 2 Tier 1's, but her other tourneys are 3's or 4's!

Mateo Mathieu
Mar 19th, 2003, 06:24 AM
*cough* The Princess Cup was Tier II, Sarah! :p

DutchieGirl
Mar 19th, 2003, 10:04 AM
Oh, Sorry Matt, I'll edit it now :D

irma
Mar 19th, 2003, 10:10 AM
I call the masters a tier 1 +

great smash
Mar 19th, 2003, 10:29 AM
Not taking anything away from Jelena, she has earned her two titles, yet it's the opponents you're facing that define the credit that should be given for getting a title not the amount of money and ranking points involved. Maybe you shoud consider the Masters Kim's biggest victory,

I still seem to be the most amazed at what she did in Filderstadt:

Clijsters-Myskina 6-4 6-2
Clijsters-Majoli 6-1 6-2
Clijsters-Davenport 4-6 6-3 6-4
Clijsters-Mauresmo 3-6 6-3 7-5
Clijsters-Hantuchova 4-6 6-3 6-4

Feel free to disagree, but I still rate this victory verly highly. Many Tier I's are won beating what are considered to be easier opponents.

SM
Mar 19th, 2003, 11:33 AM
Well people write her off because you are not a legitimate threat unless you do well "consistently". Kim has proven to be much much more consistent (7 more titles and growing) and her style is more risk averse, and suited to beat the top players.

Having said that i dont think Jelena should be written off. When she is on she does play with more stick than Kim for sure and is capabale of winning the big tier 1's. The thing is, after last years Us Open loss to Bovina we havent even really seen flashes of good play from her to warrant her top position.

Cmon Jelena and get it back together! Hopefully this week in Nasdaq with atleast a few wins strung together, and fight to hold on to the top ten position :)

TheBoiledEgg
Mar 19th, 2003, 12:54 PM
Kim winning the WTA Champs gives her unlimited WC's (GS winners get that too) for the entire time you stay on tour.
WTA Champs are just below the slams.

no Tier 1 does that and will never get that privalege.

selesfan
Mar 19th, 2003, 01:46 PM
In the two tier Is that Jelena won, I think she only beat one top ten player (Mauresmo in Rome) and even then Amelie was exhausted.

In all fairness, Kim only beat 1 top ten player to win her tier 1 also. Chanda is not officially top ten until this week.

Dava
Mar 19th, 2003, 01:49 PM
Kim is just a better player then Jelena period. I do like Jelena but there are things in her game which she needs to improve on greatly!!! For example the serve, it looked week in San Diego compared to Kournikova's and thats not something you want to said about your serve.

SM
Mar 19th, 2003, 02:03 PM
i beg to differ. her serve weak? well from what ive seen her aggressive mentality is at the root of her serving woes, as it is in regards to her unforced errors.

with the serve she concentrates on producing a FLAT, powerful, and error prone delivery. Weak no. When she confident her serve 1st and 2nd is flat and so hard...i just watched her win over Seles at gaz de france and had like a dozen aces and it was consistently BIG.

a second issue with the serve is the fact she is not using spins for variety. fflat = predictable delivery its much easier for the opponents to return.

overall: like her groundies she hits it flat and hard without enough consideration about variation. if she works on 2nd serve a bit mopre i wouldnt say its a bad serve

jmp
Mar 19th, 2003, 06:48 PM
If you listen to Cliff Drysdale and Pat McEnroe, they always refer to Federer's unfulfilled potential. This talk really intensified after he beat Samprass at Wimbledon a couple of years ago. For them, Federer is their "little engine that can't". For me it's Dokic and Safin.

I don't think of Clijsters and Dokic in the same way. They have different games and they're at different points in their career progression. Clijsters has been on a steady ascent. Her dips in performance were slight whereas Dokic peaked and began a slow descent. From what I've been able to see, she concentrated on playing a lot of tournaments to rack up points to the detriment of improving her game. I think this was a poor strategy. She should have played less tournaments and concentrated on exploiting her opponents' weaknesses so she could go deep into the tournaments she chose to play.

I guess the media fuss over Clijsters and not over Dokic prompted the initial post in this thread. I personally ignore commentator predictions and hype over particular players. I think they tend to exaggerate, omit pertinent information, tow the party line, or show bias. I do listen to background information and technical analysis, though. I think Dokic can still be a force if she makes adjustments to her game and schedule.

GBFH
Mar 19th, 2003, 06:54 PM
Excellent post, jmp :)

However, I do disagree about Safin being the "little engine that can't". Unlike Dokic and Federer, Marat has won a major, and reached number one in the world. Mind you, it was over two years ago...but then again, so were Jelena's Tier I titles...

Mikey
Mar 19th, 2003, 09:37 PM
Not to belittle her achievements, but I think that it's because of the time difference between now and then. But if you're looking at it as an "overall" type of thing, then it could possibly be the players she beat.

As I recall, Jelena was hailed then. She was a huge prospect. And then she faltered. Who knows? Once Kim starts to stumble, things will change again.

For my other point, Jelena beat two seeds at Rome - Conchita Martinez and Amelie Mauresmo. Mauresmo came in with more than a few titles (two of which were on clay), so that was a really impressive win. While Conchita is a true clay player, she was already in a downward spiral - but still, great win for Jelena. And at Moscow, she beat Silvia Farina-Elia, a good player but by no means a star indoors one, and Elena Dementieva. That's really it.

Kim's Championships, as a few have already said, were worth a tier I and then some. The reason it's above tier I status is because the field is so outstanding that it deserves that kind of acclaim. Aside from that, she DID beat both the Williams sisters as well as her Belgian counterpart and Chanda Rubin - pretty impressive, I'd say. At Indian Wells, ok, so the field wasn't so amazing on her side. Lindsay was by far her best win. But she did take revenge on the player who beat her there last year. And Indian Wells is definitely the 7th biggest tournament of the year.

Not to defend Kim or bash Jelena (because I'm not really a fan of either), but those are just my opinions.

spencercarlos
Mar 19th, 2003, 10:42 PM
What you post here Naldo, shows you how a player that had a better projection then, has not done the best things or taken the best decisions about her game and the way she plays the game like Dokic has.

Its tought to say that Jelena could be close to win a Tier I event, when she has not beaten Venus, Serena, Davenport, Hantuchova and even Clijsters recently.

Do you think she can come up and beat this players back to back?. Its too tough right if not impossible.

Loot at her Tier I wins, in Rome her best wins came over Martinez and Mauresmo, while at Moscow her best win as against Dementieva. Do you think these top players she beat have come close to win a slam lately or even those days 2 years ago?.

You canīt compare winning titles against this players to, winning titles like she did at the LA Championships over Rubin, Henin, Venus and Serena. This title alone tops Jelenaīs two tier one wins.

Jelena needs a big improvement, in her mental part of her game and in the way she plays the game.
Jennifer did,Kim did, Hantuchova did, i think Jelena can as well. So its up to see, only time will tell.

jmp
Mar 19th, 2003, 11:37 PM
:wavey: Hi GBFH. You make a good point. I think I'll change that phrase to "the little engine that should" when describing players that "should" be achieving so much more. A lot of pros have beautiful games, but, Marat is one of a handful of players that completely mesmerizes me when he plays his A game. A few other captivating players off the top of my head are Monica (in her hey day), Guga, Borg, and Serena.

GBFH
Mar 20th, 2003, 12:17 AM
:wavey: Hi GBFH. You make a good point. I think I'll change that phrase to "the little engine that should" when describing players that "should" be achieving so much more. A lot of pros have beautiful games, but, Marat is one of a handful of players that completely mesmerizes me when he plays his A game. A few other captivating players off the top of my head are Monica (in her hey day), Guga, Borg, and Serena.

LOL, I can live with "the little engine that should" :)

I almost cry thinking about Marats' U.S. Open final...I've never seen Sampras look so helpless...it was beautiful ;)