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hingis-seles
Feb 25th, 2003, 08:24 AM
I was just wondering why it just seemed that Monica and Steffi had a very cold and distant relationship. Sure, they both say they had a very professional relationship and lots of respect for each other, but somehow the warmth wasn't there like the other rivalries. E.g: Navratilova-Evert, Davenport-Hingis.

Even after their matches, you don't see any hugs and kisses.

Graf-Sanchez-Vicario and Seles-Sanchez-Vicario always hugged and kissed at the net as well.

After all the adversity they suffered, I would assume it would bring them closer together.

hingis-seles
Feb 25th, 2003, 08:24 AM
I can only think of US Open 1995....

irma
Feb 25th, 2003, 08:30 AM
if they had been sitting in the same class at school they would probably not have been friends either. they are just different persons with different characters.

hingis-seles
Feb 25th, 2003, 08:40 AM
That's a good point, Irma. But don't opposites attract? ;)

BasicTennis
Feb 25th, 2003, 08:45 AM
Originally posted by hingis-seles
That's a good point, Irma. But don't opposites attract? ;)

good point, but birds of the same feather flock together.;):D:devil:

hingis-seles
Feb 25th, 2003, 08:47 AM
Tennis was their similar feather! ;):devil:

BasicTennis
Feb 25th, 2003, 08:50 AM
I agree, they flock only on the tennis court.;)

irma
Feb 25th, 2003, 08:50 AM
okee when steffi was pretty nasty about monica (no I am not gonna deny that. it's a fact.) she was also nasty about a certain male player and we all know where they are now;)

so maybe if for some reason monica and steffi meet again. they become best friends lol;)

hingis-seles
Feb 25th, 2003, 08:52 AM
I don't recall Steffi ever being nasty about Monica. Irma, I don't know what you're talking about.

hingis-seles
Feb 25th, 2003, 08:53 AM
I meant to say elaborate.............;)

irma
Feb 25th, 2003, 08:56 AM
ali saying her backhand would be good for me but I can miss her mouth is not nice imho

neither the comments about that certain young players can't get a normal word out of their mouth (where there is no doubt that she meant monica considering steffi had just lost to her so it's good to claim that she was a bad loser there)

irma
Feb 25th, 2003, 09:03 AM
this was in the days when monica talked like a waterfall;)

BasicTennis
Feb 25th, 2003, 09:10 AM
LOL steffi maybe hates the sound of a waterfalls at that time.;)

Aloysius
Feb 25th, 2003, 01:56 PM
Steffi and Monica also hugged when they first met up again at the 1995 Canadian Open during a practice session. They wished each other the best of luck and said, "See you in the final" to each other.

(Of course, Steffi would then go on to lose to Amanda Coetzer in her first match and Monica went on to win the title beating Amanda in the final.)

miranda_lou
Feb 25th, 2003, 02:39 PM
Why would they ever be friends? They have nothing in common now, not even tennis.:rolleyes:

Early in her career, Monica was a total airhead. She couldn't get a word out of her mouth without a silly giggle. I used to listen to Monica's interviews and think what it would be like to have a conversation with her. Made me cringe. Steffi was always quiet and shy and thoughtful. Why would two people like that become friends when they are young?

Opposites do attract (i.e., Stefanie Graf and Andre Agassi, on the surface, as opposite as two people can get) but they fell in love.:hearts: Two women who are total opposites who did not become friends when they were young seldom become friends when they get older. :angel:

Lynn
Feb 25th, 2003, 07:31 PM
http://cache.corbis.com/CorbisImage/agent/12/37/49/12374987/UT0004820.jpg

SJW
Feb 25th, 2003, 07:35 PM
cmon i can think of people in my class who i would rather piss on than be friendly to

its just a shame. two great players :)

i liked Steffi more though

hingis-seles
Feb 25th, 2003, 07:37 PM
Hi Lynn!

w0mAn|sEr~ from the Tennis Court! :wavey:

That's the '95 US Open right? I was talking about other than that!

Cybelle Darkholme
Feb 25th, 2003, 07:39 PM
I swear is tennis the only sport where the fans desperately want the players to be bosom buddies and hug and kiss and ugh stop making me sick. ITS A SPORT. COMPETITION. If they need a friend that bad they can go join a book club or something.

hingis-seles
Feb 25th, 2003, 07:41 PM
Originally posted by cybelledarkholmexx
I swear is tennis the only sport where the fans desperately want the players to be bosom buddies and hug and kiss and ugh stop making me sick. ITS A SPORT. COMPETITION. If they need a friend that bad they can go join a book club or something.

I was "wondering".......

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Lynn
Feb 25th, 2003, 07:44 PM
Hi Ali. Yup, Sept 9th 1995

There are a few others I've seen of Monica and Steffi hugging or kissing but I've no access to them.

miranda_lou
Feb 25th, 2003, 07:47 PM
Personally, I don't know HOW they could be "bosom buddies" since they have to play against each other. I remember years ago when Chrissy Evert was friends with Martina Nav. Then Martina got into shape and starting beating the Princess and Chrissy dropped her like dirty underwear.:p Poor Martina was a little confused but she managed to get over it.;) Eventually, they became cautious friends but they were never close again.

Lynn
Feb 25th, 2003, 07:52 PM
Nancy Lieberman can get the credit/blame for Martina's attitude i.e. the killer instinct toward The Ice Princess.

hingis-seles
Feb 25th, 2003, 07:54 PM
Thanks for the info, Lynn!

Miranda_lou, no one's asking them to be best friends or "bosom buddies". I was just inquiring about how warm and cordial their relationship was?

CondiLicious
Feb 25th, 2003, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by cybelledarkholmexx
I swear is tennis the only sport where the fans desperately want the players to be bosom buddies and hug and kiss and ugh stop making me sick.

Maybe cos tennis is kinda famous for lesbianism and people secretly want their players to be having some girl on girl action. I have my head in the gutter but thats what came into my head when I read the title of the topic "Steffi and Monica - the relationship" I thought I'd missed out on something again like how I didn't know BJK was into punani until yesterday.

hingis-seles
Feb 25th, 2003, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by DiVaMoNiCaSeLeS
Maybe cos tennis is kinda famous for lesbianism and people secretly want their players to be having some girl on girl action. I have my head in the gutter but thats what came into my head when I read the title of the topic "Steffi and Monica - the relationship" I thought I'd missed out on something again like how I didn't know BJK was into punani until yesterday.

ROTFLMAO!

:devil:

ttaM
Feb 25th, 2003, 08:07 PM
Chris and Martina weren't alike either, but I guess they knew each other so well after playing against each other every week ;). Monica and Steffi played 3 matches in a year at most, and that was once in '89. From then on it was between 0-2 each year. So its not like they had time to chit chat in the lockerroom without anyone else being there.

I'm sure if both were walking down the hallway in the opposite direction both would stop and talk for a while. I doubt we'll see a pic of the two at jaden's birthday party, but who knows.

Spirit
Feb 25th, 2003, 08:43 PM
I have written a long, complicated post. Forgive me, but I find this very interesting, and I've taken this opportunity to unleash all my varied thoughts on this subject onto the world.

I have a fascination for the Graf-Seles relationship, simply because I think it must be -- or at least was at one time -- one of the most bizarre relationships anywhere. They hardly knew each other, then suddenly one of them gets stabbed by a psycho fan of the other. Gee, what do you talk about if you're them? Oh, to be a fly on the wall during their conversations. (And yes, the stabbing -- at least for a while -- defined their relationship, and might still do to this day.)

First of all, if this thread opens up to either Monica-bashing or Steffi-bashing, or talk of what "should have been," I'm out of here.

Full disclosure: Monica's my favorite athlete on the planet, but I don't really care about Steffi one way or the other, as an individual.

I've tried to armchair psychoanalyze both women through reading numerous articles and books. (I have yet to read "Public Power, Private Pain." It's on my list.) It's a dangerous hobby, especially since I've never met either woman in person and probably never will, so I'm probably so full of shit that my eyes have turned brown. (Actually, they are brown already.)


Monica's poison darts

In Monica's autobiography, "Monica: From Fear to Victory," the veneer of politeness she laid over the darts she threw at Steffi was very transparent. It would have been better if she'd just pulled off the gloves and spoken more openly about what she was feeling.

Monica wrote about seeing Steffi smash a hole in a locker room wall, obviously intending it to be a reflection of her character. But Monica refused to acknowledge that part of the reason Steffi did that was that her family name was being dragged through the mud by the German tabloids because of her father's alleged affair with a model.

This doesn't excuse Steffi, of course. Steffi was also known to trash the flowers beside practice courts in rage attacks when she thought no one was looking. (You don't grow up as the daughter of a womanizing alcoholic without problems.) My point simply is that Monica obviously was using any opportunity to throw a poison dart of bitternesss in Steffi's direction, and it's not hard to figure out why.

Monica also mentioned (politely) that after the 1995 US Open Final, Steffi left her waiting at the net by going to greet her family first, and that Steffi shouldn't have done that, as tennis protocol demands you meet your opponent first.

I don't know squat about tennis etiquette. Maybe Steffi was wrong to do that. But Steffi just happened to be running in the direction of her family, already facing them, when the last ball sailed long, and they had all been through hell with Peter being in prison. She simply continued jogging forward and hugged them for a few seconds. I didn't think it was anything much. And again, right or wrong, Monica could have at least mentioned Steffi's troubles as a possible reason for her actions. But she didn't; she chose to paint it as a slight against her.

So again, my point is that even if Monica was right in her opinion and was painting an accurate picture of Steffi, it was evident that the reason she did so was that she felt a need to take pot shots at a woman for whom she obviously felt great bitterness.

I don't judge either woman. They're both human.


Running away

Monica claimed that Steffi never called her for months after the stabbing. Steffi claims she tried, but could not get ahold of her "for whatever reason" (her own words). Other celebrities outside of tennis contacted Monica with no problem whatsoever, so I'll believe Monica on that one. (I don't believe the myth that "Monica's agency didn't even know where she was." She was at the Steadman-Hawkins clinic in Colorado. People were able to reach her there, or leave messages, just fine.)

I believe that after the stabbing, neither woman knew how to deal with the situation. Steffi was the epitome of shyness and only knew how to internalize problems instead of confront them. Monica was traumatized. So Steffi ran away from the problem by internalizing it, and because she could separate herself from it physically. Monica ran away from the problem by curling up inside a carton of ice cream. But they both ran away.

I find it interesting that Monica could be angry at Steffi and at the WTA (if she truly was angry, and I believe she was) for "abandoning" her, when Monica also abandoned herself for a while, for much the same reasons -- an inability to deal with the problem. Monica was holding standards to others that she was unable to hold to herself. (The answer to this idea is that if she'd received more support from Steffi and from the WTA, she might not have slid so far into depression, so it may be a chicken-and-egg question.)


Pain and bitterness

At one time, at least, Monica felt bitterness toward Steffi. That much is obvious, and understandable. I equate it to being jumped by highway robbers, and then seeing someone else continue walking along the road with the jewels you were wearing only a few moments earlier, but being unable to blame them for having them. (It's difficult to create a proper analogy, so work with me here.) I can't imagine anyone in the same position not feeling bitterness at her rival's success, and I'm damned proud of Monica for moving past all that.

As for Steffi, I think she got stuck with the "I'm hurting, too, but I can't say anything because I didn't get stabbed" syndrome. Not an enviable position. If she had spoken up about the hardship she was enduring -- which I'm sure she was -- she would have appeared callous because Monica got hurt worse. With all the sympathy for Monica, Steffi had to remain silent. Yet her silence also made her appear callous.

Steffi had to answer questions about Monica at every press conference, and the media, dying for the drama -- a tear, an emotional rant, a message from her to Monica -- wanted Steffi to open up and say something. Anything. They wanted her to acknowledge that her victories were meaningless without Monica. They wanted a Monica-Steffi huggy-kissy moment -- or, failing that, a good old-fashioned cat fight. They wanted something. Steffi never gave it to them.

(Here's an interesting exercise: Imagine the exact same situation happening to two men instead of to two women. Theorize the results. Have fun!)

Steffi was stuck in an impossible situation. If she had given in, even one millimeter, to the "Monica's not here so it doesn't mean as much" argument, then she would have effectively dismissed her own achievements forever, as she would never have been able to take her statements back. However, by not giving in, she appeared callous and uncaring towards Monica's plight.

(Mary Carillo and several news articles said Steffi felt considerable guilt for a while over the stabbing. Although I don't doubt this, I never heard or read any instance in which Steffi actually said any such thing. Knowing how the media works, I wonder how much of that was their guesswork and how much of that was a result of actually talking with Steffi.)


What helped

Contrary to what some people believe, Steffi was supportive of giving Monica a co-ranking of #1. However, I can't help but wonder how Steffi would have felt if she had been #2 -- thereby moving herself down to #3, the way Arantxa was. Arantxa, for all her niceness and friendship with Monica, wasn't happy about that. And I can't blame her, either.

One question: in Monica's autobiography (written in 1996), she obviously still felt betrayal over the WTA's refusal to freeze her ranking back in 1993. Yet two years later, she claimed she "didn't care about the ranking, I just want to play." I can't help but feel that's inconsistent.

Steffi also said something kind to Monica spontaneously (she was never good at planned words) through the camera after winning a trophy in the summer of 1993. I don't remember which one.


What could have helped

I do wish Steffi had done a little more during the months after the stabbing. She was never obligated to do any such thing. She didn't owe Monica anything. I'm perfectly aware of that. But at the same time, I'm not obligated to be nice to the people around me, but boy it sure makes life easier when I am.

I would have liked to see a press release from Steffi condemning Monica's attacker. (Was one ever released? I've not heard of it.) This should have been a no-brainer. It might have healed a lot of pain with very little effort. Instead, her silence gave the impression of callousness, an impression Steffi has had to fight her whole life.

As an answer, though, I wonder if Steffi was afraid of repercussions from Mr. Maniac if she had said anything bad about him in public. Who knows how a psychopathic worshipper will react when his Goddess rejects him publicly? We know, for example, that El Psycho knew Heidi Graf's address, because he sent her gifts constantly. Perhaps Steffi's security firm told her, "Don't rock his boat. Don't say anything publicly." I don't know.

I also feel frustration over the whole timing of Peter Graf's arrest and Monica's return. Regardless of whether she wanted the role or not, Steffi arguably had the greatest power to help Monica, even if it was by no more than reaching out with a kind word. But just when Monica made her comeback, Peter Graf got thrown in jail. The Graf family came under a paparazzi assault not seen since Nancy Kerrigan and Tonya Harding went to Norway, and suddenly, Steffi had no time or energy to help Monica because she had her own full plate to deal with. I often wonder if their relationship would have been a lot better if Peter had never gotten arrested, or at least had gotten arrested after the US Open was finished. That Open could have been such a great healing time for their relationship, but it really wasn't.

(I did not know that Monica and Steffi had met briefly at the Canadian Open. Any more info on that? Pics? I think if Peter hadn't gotten arrested, Monica and Steffi would have met in the Final there.)

(And if Amanda Coetzer had beaten Monica, she would have become the only player ever to beat two Number Ones in the same week. How bizarre, how bizarre.)


Who they are

In the end, even if the stabbing had never happened, I don't think Steffi and Monica would ever really be friends. As Irma said, they are just too different, with wildly different personalities. Not exactly opposites, just very different.

Each woman is very kind and giving in her own way. Steffi has started charities and takes in stray dogs. Monica donates considerable time and money to other charities. Neither of them does it for the publicity. Neither of them talks to the media about conversations they've had in private. It's strange that these two women, who do seem a bit cold to each other at times, actually have such strong dedication to privacy and protocol.

Steffi did say in an interview with Peter Bodo that she had bumped into Esther Seles at a tournament, got to talking, and thought it would be nice just to talk to Monica about the past. That was several years ago; I have no idea if any such talk ever happened. If it did, neither woman would ever say.

No person or relationship can be summed up in a sound byte, an article, or a book. Overall, I'm sure they're perfectly friendly towards each other. I think there's a few grudges between them, or used to be; respect; and a little sadness. I think they don't send Christmas cards to each other, and that they each think of the other about as often as they think about her neighbors or the postman.

Now that she's retired, I'm waiting with baited breath for the Steffi Graf autobiography. Something tells me I'll be waiting for a long time. :)

The media will be talking about all this again soon since the 10th anniversary of the stabbing is just a couple of months away. That sound you hear is Monica gritting her teeth, hoping the anniversary passes as quickly, and with as little fuss, as possible. The other sound you hear is Steffi preparing her "I don't really have a comment to make" statement as preparation for all the interview requests she'll be getting.

Thanks for the topic, H-S. Sorry if I took it beyond your intention, but I've wanted to voice these thoughts for a long time.

irma
Feb 25th, 2003, 09:03 PM
well the wall thing wasn't news of course. steffi already told that herself in 1990. so whatever monica's intension where there she failed!

and about the calling. who says monica knew if steffi tried to contact her. maybe the people around her didn't found it a good idea since steffi's name was related to what happened. just a suggestion

irma
Feb 25th, 2003, 09:06 PM
that said I can understand she was pissed and mad and must have been thinking at one point I am stabbed because of that bitch and now she is happily winning titles and I am lying here.

that's not bad. she is a human afterall. I would probably have thought the same thing.

Sam L
Feb 25th, 2003, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by irma
that said I can understand she was pissed and mad and must have been thinking at one point I am stabbed because of that bitch and now she is happily winning titles and I am lying here.

that's not bad. she is a human afterall. I would probably have thought the same thing.

LOL yeah good point. Remember she was only 19 at the time too. It's amazing how she's recovered and the person she's become since.

CondiLicious
Feb 25th, 2003, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by Sam L
LOL yeah good point. Remember she was only 19 at the time too. It's amazing how she's recovered and the person she's become since.

Does anyone know what has become of the sicko that did that to her? The more and more I think about what happened the more I hate him and the more I wish he was in hell. I get the spooks sometimes when I watch Monica play and think about him and if he is watching and... grrrrr

selesrules
Feb 25th, 2003, 09:36 PM
Steffi was stuck in an impossible situation. If she had given in, even one millimeter, to the "Monica's not here so it doesn't mean as much" argument, then she would have effectively dismissed her own achievements forever, as she would never have been able to take her statements back. However, by not giving in, she appeared callous and uncaring towards Monica's plight.

I disagree. OF COURSE the stabbing made Steffi's accomplishements less valuable. It's a no-brainer. Monica won 7 of the last 8 grandslams she played including 3-1 in slams finals against Steffi. She even won the last 3 wta championships. She was no.1 and dominating BY FAR and that's why she was stabbed. All the experts from McEnroe, Austin, Evert, Shriver, Navratilova, Bud Collins, Carillo, etc have said a million times how much the stabbing affected tennis history, it's not a secret.

When Steffi never admited that without Monica it took away some importance of her wins, I wanted to punch her. Not admiting it and pretending that nothing happened is IGNORANT and IDIOTIC and shows IMMENSE DISRESPECT TO MONICA. Wether she would have admited or not wouldn't have changed the fact that IT DID CHANGE THINGS. So she should have showed class and some intelligence and said that yes of course Monica was no.1 for years so it would have been much harder to accomplish all this with her playing, maybe she would have continued dominating. If she admited this I would be so nice to Steffi, but she acted like nothing happened. EVERYONE already knew that the stabbing had a huge effect on tennis history and EVERYONE knows that it's not Steffi's fault wether she admits the impact or not. But the fact that she acted like nothing happened is the main reason why I don't like her. She only cares about winning.

eshell
Feb 25th, 2003, 09:53 PM
I agree that Steffi was in an impossible situation.


What else would Steffi do besides make the best of the situation? Whether she acknowledges the stabbing as a factor for her renewed dominance or not, the fact remains that she prefers (preferred) private expressions of her sentiments. Who knows what she has mentioned to her friends and confidants in private???

At this juncture, it would be nice for Steffi to acknowledge the impact of the stabbing on her career. If she doesn't, I can respect her silence as well. She simply performed her job: playing tennis.

If Steffi and Monica can put the bitterness behind them, I can as well.

Helen Lawson
Feb 25th, 2003, 10:25 PM
I do not recall Steffi being "friends" or "friendly" with any tennis players, except a few. Those few were not anyone who could challenge her on the court. I do not recall she was "buddies" with Chris, Martina (either one), Gaby, or even Arantxa. She seemed the most "friendly" with Arantxa but she did beat her something like 20-30 times. Arantxa smoked her four time in Slams though. Steffi does not seem the type to be friendly with other players, nothing against her, but it seems like it is (was) her personality. Maybe if she had had a 15 year rivalry with Seles it would have been different but they ended up having a short one.

Tennis Fool
Feb 25th, 2003, 11:15 PM
Spirit: Very thoughtful post. You had a lot on your mind that you wanted to get out!

Also: regarding a Graf bio. You'll learn all about her and her thoughts on players in ANDRE'S autobio, after the messy divorce and he's onto his fourth marriage.;)

Tennis Fool
Feb 25th, 2003, 11:18 PM
Originally posted by DiVaMoNiCaSeLeS
Does anyone know what has become of the sicko that did that to her? The more and more I think about what happened the more I hate him and the more I wish he was in hell. I get the spooks sometimes when I watch Monica play and think about him and if he is watching and... grrrrr

He was found not to be a "threat to society" by two different judges two years apart. (I guess a knife in the back is not a threat, as it already "happened":rolleyes:

He's problem in his cave sharpening knives.

I also understand that he sent threatening letters to Graf's boyfriend at the time.

King Lindsay
Feb 26th, 2003, 12:19 AM
Isn't he being treated in a mental health facility somewhere in Germany? I thought that was what became of him.

Selesrules, i don't think Steffi feels Monica being absent helped her. A proud champion like her? Steffi would never denigrate her own accomplishments by saying she couldn't have achieved them without Monica's unfortunate injury. She probably just doesn't feel that way. How can you begrudge her for not stating the opinion you want her to hold?

plus, what was she to say? "Yes, what happened to Monica was the best thing that ever happened to my tennis game." well, why not write a thankyou letter to Gunther Parche then? did you ever think that "acknowledging" that her success after the stabbing was a result of it she would be validating her madman?

ttaM
Feb 26th, 2003, 12:34 AM
Last I heard he was still sending gifts to Graf. :rolleyes:

I also heard he wrote Monica a letter of apology!?!?! Not sure if this is true, and I can't remember where I read this.

Hurley
Feb 26th, 2003, 01:35 AM
I always thought it was a dirty lesbian relationship. Clearly they are two of the five greatest lesbian tennis players of all time.

Lynn
Feb 26th, 2003, 01:59 AM
I have to guess that one reason why Monica has never returned to Germany is because she knows where that fruitloop Parche is. If I had the money and resources to keep track of the %^$#@%, I would want to know where he is.

kku
Feb 26th, 2003, 02:09 AM
Originally posted by hingis-seles
I was just wondering why it just seemed that Monica and Steffi had a very cold and distant relationship. Sure, they both say they had a very professional relationship and lots of respect for each other, but somehow the warmth wasn't there like the other rivalries. E.g: Navratilova-Evert, Davenport-Hingis.

Even after their matches, you don't see any hugs and kisses.

Graf-Sanchez-Vicario and Seles-Sanchez-Vicario always hugged and kissed at the net as well.

After all the adversity they suffered, I would assume it would bring them closer together.

Simple. Read Monica's biography and she says (from memory) that she thought Steffi was un-sympathetic and distant towards her after the Hamburg stabbing (despite Steffi's one-time visit to Monica at the hospital).

I don't know whether it's true or not, but I hope it answers some of your questions.

Spirit
Feb 26th, 2003, 04:47 AM
Originally posted by C'Mon(ica)
Last I heard he was still sending gifts to Graf.

I also heard he wrote Monica a letter of apology!?!?! Not sure if this is true, and I can't remember where I read this.

I also read somewhere that he had offered an apology to Monica, but I'm not sure in what context or forum.

There are tons of articles -- probably never translated -- which I would like to read, but never have and probably never will.

I've heard that there was a great public outcry in Germany when Parche received his first suspended sentence, but that as time wore on, the public began to see him a bit more sympathetically. I'm not sure if that's accurate, but I get the impression that either way, many articles were written which may be quite informative.

Frankly, I'm surprised no journalist ever wrote a book about just the stabbing, covering the event, the attacker, the trials and the public perception, both in Germany and internationally. It's probably too late, now. No publisher would be interested. The best record so far is in Monica's own autobiography.

Spirit
Feb 26th, 2003, 05:13 AM
Here's one other trivial thing I've always wanted to point out. This regards the 1992 Wimbledon Final, in which Monica lost to Steffi. It was also the match in which Monica made a concerted effort to mute her grunt because of all the fuss that year.

Monica's parents sat right behind Steffi's parents.

I just thought that was really odd. Is this the way it always is at Wimbledon? Wouldn't the two families' boxes be further apart? Kinda makes cheering a bit awkward, doesn't it?

irma
Feb 26th, 2003, 05:51 AM
steffi never said I am the greatest. she never said anything about her record

the only thing people can say steffi should have said something was when she broke the weeks of number 1 (from Nav) and she should not have celebrated that imho even when monica had returned already. that's the only point in the steffi should have said this record doesn't make sense since I got it through a crime.
oh yeah she should also not have called 93 a great year. (it's on asaps site, masters interview) and the article of life as number 1 in august 93 (lol I don't chance my opinion about that one. no matter if my steffi fan friends like it or not)

irma
Feb 26th, 2003, 05:54 AM
spirit I might write a book about it one day :p

it's a good excuse to interview monica and steffi :p

hingis-seles
Feb 26th, 2003, 08:57 AM
Spirit, I really liked your thesis! :D

selesrules, could you please not bash Steffi. This thread is to discuss their relationship, not to put either one of them down. Thanks. :)

Irma, I'll co-write the book with you. I'll interview Monica, you can interview Steffi. ;):p

hingis-seles
Feb 26th, 2003, 11:43 AM
Q. Can you comment on Steffi's retirement both in a personal sense and also what you think it might mean for the women's Tour, women's tennis?

MONICA SELES: Well, I think Steffi retiring is a great time. She has made that decision on her own terms. I just think that is fantastic. She had an unbelievable year this year. On the Tour -- I think it would have been very difficult on the Tour five years ago if she retired. I think right now you have five other players who have marquis names and that is why women's tennis is right now at such an unbelievable point. I just hope that it capitalizes on it while it is lasting. But I think all the players are going to be sad not to see her because she has been such a part of the Tour for such a long time.

Q. Does it seem strange that you two will never play again?

MONICA SELES: No. I mean, doesn't seem strange never to play Martina or Chrissie again. That is just life.

Q. When Steffi retired, did it make you stop and think about your own career?

MONICA SELES: Not really. I mean, Steffi is four years older. She has played those two and a half years that I did not play. I'm more I think towards Lindsay. Lindsay is closest to my age, two years apart. I don't know if it's tomorrow that I don't enjoy playing tennis, I will stop. I have no reason to play if I don't like it. Right now, I just enjoy too much. I love to practice, love everything that comes with it.

Q. You had an interesting relationship with Steffi, both on and off the court, for a good number of years. Could you take a moment and just reflect on that?

MONICA SELES: Obviously, we were so close, No. 1, No. 2, for so many years till the stabbing, then we couldn't continue our rivalry. When I came back, we had it for probably the next two years, then a lot of other players started coming into the picture. Steffi and I had some unbelievable matches, some that I've won, some that I've lost. They'll always stay in my memory. From that point of view, I just have some fantastic memories. Obviously, you know, it took all of us by surprise that she decided not to play at The Open. I just think it's fantastic that she's leaving on her own terms, at a great time in her career. She's so young, she has a fantastic life ahead of her.

Q. Was her strongest asset her forehand?

MONICA SELES: I would probably say more her movement because I really think if she didn't have the movement, she could never set up for the forehand. I think when she started coming back from the injuries, the only reason why for a certain point she didn't play well was her movement was not the same. Once she got it back, the results started coming back again.

Q. Was it quickness or her anticipation was exceptional?

MONICA SELES: I think a combination of both. I think Steffi was one of the quickest players up there right now with Serena and Venus. You have a player like Martina who is great at anticipating. It's tough to say. I would have to say she probably had both.

hingis-seles
Feb 26th, 2003, 11:44 AM
Q. What do you think about Steffi's, sort of, come back, you know, the way that she is playing again, like a contender?

MONICA SELES: She is playing -- I always see Steffi as a contender. Obviously she won the tournament before the US Open coming in; someone who has done so well in their career; they just don't disappear. She is still in better shape than most players, so you always view her that way. In my mind it hasn't changed at all.

Monica at AO 1999:

Q. Was this like old times - Flinders Park, Monica, and Steffi?

A. Not for me. I just went in there and played the ball.

Q. Is there still something special, though, about playing someone like Steffi?

A. Why?

Q. Do you still get a special feeling when you know you are going to play Steffi?

A. I really get a special feeling when I play any top players. I don't exclude or include Steffi in that. I just go out there and play, and I know it's going to be a tough match, and I expect that a quarter final of a Grand Slam to be tough and I just do, try to do the best that I can that day.But Steffi is not the best player in the world. It's Lindsay, and Martina. So it's a different level that they are playing now.

* Q. Monica, when the time does come for you to retire, do you think Steffi will be the opponent that stands out most in
your memories?

A. For what reasons?

Q. All the great matches?

A. No, I would say probably my greatest match, I played against Martina, just because we have such a different style of game, and I really looked up to her as a person, as an athlete, so she will probably stand, I think, as that person

King Lindsay
Feb 26th, 2003, 11:52 AM
Q. Was her strongest asset her forehand?

MONICA SELES: I would probably say more her movement because I really think if she didn't have the movement, she could never set up for the forehand.

This does not get said enough.

GoDominique
Feb 26th, 2003, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by Spirit
Here's one other trivial thing I've always wanted to point out. This regards the 1992 Wimbledon Final, in which Monica lost to Steffi. It was also the match in which Monica made a concerted effort to mute her grunt because of all the fuss that year.

Monica's parents sat right behind Steffi's parents.

I just thought that was really odd. Is this the way it always is at Wimbledon? Wouldn't the two families' boxes be further apart? Kinda makes cheering a bit awkward, doesn't it?

It's always like this. ;) Or at least it has been like that in the 90's, I'm not so sure about nowadays.
This can be quite funny at times. :D

Chance
Feb 26th, 2003, 12:01 PM
yeah I remember after Serena lost to Jen Cap, Richard and Brandi shook hands with Jen's parents .

hingis-seles
Feb 26th, 2003, 01:09 PM
I remember Melanie sitting in one corner and Richard and Serena in another during the Wimbledon 200 QF between Hingis and Venus.

Spirit
Feb 26th, 2003, 06:29 PM
Excerpt from a Steffi Graf interview with Focus magazine, May 25, 1996:

http://www.geocities.com/steffiarticles/96-foc.htm

FOCUS: Who will be your toughest competition for the title at the French Open?

Graf: In Paris, Monica Seles will certainly be the one to beat, although she needed a four month break due to a shoulder injury. I believe Conchita Martinez is likewise capable of quite something. Arantxa Sanchez Vicario is also very strong on clay, although recently she has lost some consistency like a few other older players.

FOCUS: How is your relationship with Monica Seles?

Graf: Actually, we have no contact. During the tournaments, she is always only at the facilities quite briefly, clears out right after her match, and trains very early in the morning.

There was actually a first cautious overture during the US Open last year, though there hasn't been an open discussion yet. Maybe we both are a little afraid and therefore haven't rectified the situation yet.

FOCUS: Shortly before Wimbledon, an autobiography about Monica Seles was published about the attack and the controversial sentence of the Steffi-Graf-fan Günter Parche. Are you afraid of a new fuss?

Graf: I'm incredibly sorry about what happened to Monica in 1993. I don't think she reproaches me in her book. But it helps neither of us when this more-than-three-years-old story is stirred up again.

Spirit
Feb 26th, 2003, 06:39 PM
Excerpt from a Steffi Graf interview with Tennis magazine writer Peter Bodo, March 2000:

http://www.geocities.com/steffiarticles/00-001.html

We sit down in an empty cocktail lounge on the ground floor of the hotel to talk. Over the next few hours, it becomes clear that while Graf is a warmer person now than in her youth -- and apt to laugh freely when teased -- she remains incurably bashful. This is especially true when it comes to talking about things that are more personal than her tennis game. She won't, for example, discuss her "love match" with Andre Agassi, which reportedly began shortly before the 1999 U.S. Open.

At times, Graf reaches across the small round table and turns off the tape recorder, presumably because she finds herself painted into a psychological or emotional corner, or because she's not comfortable issuing strong judgments about some of her peers for public consumption. When she reflects on her mixed-doubles partnership at Wimbledon with John McEnroe -- he criticized her freely and often after she defaulted from last year's semifinals -- she leaves it at this: "I'd wanted to play with John all my life; I admired his game and achievements so much. It was fun, but it was very intense, and something I wouldn't want to do again."

After this interview, I felt much the same way.

...

Did that event shatter your image of your father?

It made my life more difficult because I've never been comfortable in the spotlight, even in the best and happiest of times. So you can imagine how it hit me when the news about this woman [Nicole Meissner, a model with reputed German underworld connections, who claimed Peter Graf was the father of her child] came out during the Berlin tournament. Of course, the story was timed to create the most publicity in Germany.

I remember like it was yesterday. I had to play Monica [Seles] in the final of the event and I had absolutely no desire to set foot on the court. I finally decided to play, and I lost, badly. When I got back into the locker room, I smashed my racquet against the wall. I hit it so hard that I made a hole in the wall. It was the first and last time I ever did such a thing. I guess that shows how difficult it was.

In some ways, my career changed for good after that. I wasn't ever the most open person, or the most communicative. This only made it worse, and for a long time. Sure, some very big mistakes were made by my father, and I wouldn't deny that. But I also had a very hard time with how sensationally things were portrayed, and how they were just put out there for all the world to see, with very little concern for me or my family. It became a big part of everything I was doing, and I felt that was wrong.

Traumatic event No. 2: In April 1993, a deranged fan of yours stabbed Monica Seles in the back during a tournament in an effort – ultimately successful – to secure you the No. 1 ranking. Seles was sidelined for more than two years. The morning after the stabbing, you and Monica had a tearful meeting in the hospital. But later, she and her family accused you of not being sufficiently supportive, while you claimed that you tried calling her but weren't able to get through. What is your final word on that chain of events?

I don't want to replay what happened then because, as it happens, I saw Monica's mother, Esther, recently. We talked a little. And at some point, I'm hoping that maybe Monica and I will be able to talk about the stabbing and move on from there. But I did make an effort to talk to her after that morning in the hospital. And I understand how awful it was for Monica to go through that. I think it created great turmoil and confusion. And I really felt horrible, knowing that some fan of mine did that to her. It was a devastating blow.

How do you react to being characterized as an unfeeling or cold person?

Not at all. Anyone who thinks I'm cold doesn't know me.

<End of excerpt>

The entire interview is really fascinating!

I wish I knew at what points Steffi stopped the tape recorder. I also find Peter Bodo's "I felt much the same way" statement exceedingly interesting.

Fortis
Feb 26th, 2003, 08:55 PM
In all of this Monica Seles has managed to come across as a person who likes the limelight on her...Just my two cents. Sorry about the 1993 incident. Poor Steffi. That's all I have to say.

selesrules
Feb 26th, 2003, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by Fortis
In all of this Monica Seles has managed to come across as a manipulative person who likes the limelight on her...Just my two cents. Sorry about the 1993 incident. Poor Steffi. That's all I have to say.

Poor steffi? What an idiot.

CondiLicious
Feb 26th, 2003, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by Fortis
In all of this Monica Seles has managed to come across as a manipulative person who likes the limelight on her...Just my two cents. Sorry about the 1993 incident. Poor Steffi. That's all I have to say.

What the????? I have to agree with Selesrules for once "what an idiot". Poor Steffi??? :confused:

The "old" Monica loved the limelight, the Monica of today seems to less so but... None of us know what she is really like. She used to be brilliant but annoying. Infact she was beyond annoying, I used to want to gag her. Now she seems to be the sweetest person on the planet. I dunno...

selesrules
Feb 26th, 2003, 09:29 PM
Monica was never annoying. :rolleyes: In fact, even when she was no.1 before the stabbing, she was probably the nicest no.1 ever. She's always been nice, did you see her interviews back then like after her matches like the 92 french open final, 91 us open semi, among thousands of others? She was extremely nice, shy, cute, always giggles, nothing close to annoying. The only things that could be categorized as annoying was that she talked very fast and that she grunted, but the talking is actually cute and the grunting has become the norm these days, everyone does it. In fact she was a SAINT compared to the likes of Hingis and the Williams when they were between 16-19 years old. Some people need to get a clue.

oggie
Feb 26th, 2003, 09:38 PM
Even though I love Monica, I have to admit that Monica's constant giggles were a bit silly and annoying back in the early 1990's. But so what that she giggles and speaks too fast. Is anybody seriously going to hate her because of something as superficial as that. The important thing is that she really is a nice person. She has matured since then and she doesn't giggle anymore at all.

Fortis
Feb 26th, 2003, 09:50 PM
Poor Steffi..A victim of people who really know nothing about tennis history and who are seeking to malign her and her career.

Poor Steffi. The image of Seles is just that... a media created fallacy. I remember Seles saying that she wanted to kicK Viele's a@@..how sweet. That sacchrine stuff about Seles is created by the media and shoved on to the unsuspecting by her so-called fans.

Yeah, the 1993 incident was wrong and awful. But, it is now being used as a tool to deliberately mailgn someone's career. Someone who doesn't have a chance to defend herself from all the gibberish that's post here. POOR STEFFI. She is the one who has my sympathy.

It's funny that there was no mention of the 1993 incident until Steffi retired and the media and jealous players and commentators saw the public support for her. It's all orchestrated in my opinion.

1995 and 1996, there was very little public animosity between Steffi and Monica at the US Open. In fact, they both had the crowd support as the people knew that the whole incident was sad for both of them.

Isn't it strange that people like John McEnroe and other commentators like Chris Evert who knew that Monica dominated the tour rather than dominated Steffi keep saying the opposite ..that Monica dominated Steffi instead of saying Seles dominated the tour. They know if they keep repeating them often enough the myths replace the truth in some people's minds.

McEnroe has an agenda..he failed to win the Wimbeldon mixed doubles in 1999 and he blames Graf. Evert's agenda..SHE was DOMINATED by Graf who was much younger than her and who went on to win a calendar slam after defeating Evert in 1988.

It 's funny that the people who are objective in all of this are commentators who don't have an agenda ..people like Mary Carillo and Andrea Leand.

I have read and seen enough about this Monica-Steffi debate to know exactly what is what. If these people were so sympathetic why weren't they trumpeting Seles' cause before. What's the hidden agenda ???...


POOR Steffi...

selesrules
Feb 26th, 2003, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by Fortis
Poor Steffi..A victim of people who really know nothing about tennis history and who are seeking to malign her and her career.

Poor Steffi. The image of Seles is just that... a media created fallacy. I remember Seles saying that she wanted to kicK Viele's a@@..how sweet. That sacchrine stuff about Seles is created by the media and shoved on to the unsuspecting by her so-called fans.

Yeah, the 1993 incident was wrong and awful. But, it is now being used as a tool to deliberately mailgn someone's career. Someone who doesn't have a chance to defend herself from all the gibberish that's post here. POOR STEFFI. She is the one who has my sympathy.

It's funny that there was no mention of the 1993 incident until Steffi retired and the media and jealous players and commentators saw the public support for her. It's all orchestrated in my opinion.

1995 and 1996, there was very little public animosity between Steffi and Monica at the US Open. In fact, they both had the crowd support as the people knew that the whole incident was sad for both of them.

Isn't it strange that people like John McEnroe and other commentators like Chris Evert who knew that Monica dominated the tour rather than dominated Steffi keep saying the opposite ..that Monica dominated Steffi instead of saying Seles dominated the tour. They know if they keep repeating them often enough the myths replace the truth in some people's minds.

McEnroe has an agenda..he failed to win the Wimbeldon mixed doubles in 1999 and he blames Graf. Evert's agenda..SHE was DOMINATED by Graf who was much younger than her and who went on to win a calendar slam after defeating Evert in 1988.

It 's funny that the people who are objective in all of this are commentators who don't have an agenda ..people like Mary Carillo and Andrea Leand.

I have read and seen enough about this Monica-Steffi debate to know exactly what is what. If these people were so sympathetic why weren't they trumpeting Seles' cause before. What's the hidden agenda ???...


POOR Steffi...

What an idiot.

First of all, prove that Monica said "I want to kick Viele's ass". I've been following her career since the beginning and she never said that.

And poor Steffi? She's now regarded by most people on this board and everywhere as the "greatest" because of her 22 slams and 370 weeks at no.1 despite half of those records coming after the woman (who won 7 of the last 8 slams she played including the last 3 frenchs, the last 3 australians, the last 2 us opens and the last 3 wta championships, including a 3-1 record in slams finals against Steffi) was stabbed. And then when a few seles fans remind everyone about the stabbing and the effect it had on those records, these few seles fans are bashed and people tell them "too bad, move on". And Monica herself has to deal with the fact that she perhaps would have been the greatest instead of Steffi. Everyone talks about Steffi being the greatest and nobody mentions Monica, all this because of the result of the stabbing. Steffi retired with a "perfect" career and perfect records and Monica's career has been destroyed, and you say poor Steffi? What a morron.

Fortis
Feb 26th, 2003, 10:36 PM
Statistics can be manipulated...I know that. Seles was dominating the tour and not Graf. They rarely met in Grand slam finals and when they did it was always close except for Wimbledon 1992 when Seles was swept away. The rest of the matches were close. I stand by what I have said. There is a hidden agenda by those who wish to continuously repeat a ten year old incident.

Seles came back from the injury. She , herself admitted that she took the time out to so-call find herself and to go skiing, etc. She stayed away from the tour out of choice. She could have come back and played tennis in months. In 1995 and 1996, the tennis public knew exactly what was going. They were not being fed the story second-hand by by people re deliberately twisting the statistics , etc. to suit their purposes.

As I said if these people were so concerned about the 1993 incident ..where were they in 1997 and 1998. Why the sudden regurgitating of a story that had gone stale long ago. I dare say it's an attempt to influence new fans, etc.

Why did Navratilova who voted against Seles being number one suddenly become a Seles ally..Why did Mary Jo Fernandez who voted against the Co-no. 1 suddenly become Seles best friend. Because it was no longer expedient to vote against her ???

Selesrules, I know it must be difficult being a sycophant..But, there are at least three sides to a story. Try looking at the other side for a change.

selesrules
Feb 26th, 2003, 10:43 PM
The other side is that you are still an idiot and you are repeating yourself. Like i said, right now if you ask everyone on the planet, the majority will name Steffi as the greatest because of the records, and 90% of people will not talk about the stabbing which is a shame. Steffi has a perfect career and she's now considered as a "greatest" with Navratilova, as for Seles only her fans try to claim that and they are bashed for it. Being called the greatest by everyone despite the stabbing doesn't make Steffi a victim, it makes her the person who won out of the whole thing. The victim is Monica. Even my dog who's barking right now can understand this. :rolleyes:

And people like Navratilova and MJ fernandez are now supporting Monica because they know if they were at her place they would want people to support them. It's only natural. Maybe I hate Britney Spears right now but if someone comes and rapes her I would feel sorry for her and I would support her.

As for Monica not returning earlier, maybe if Steffi was stabbed she would have NEVER got over it and she would have never returned. Some victims of such crimes never get over it, add this to the fact that Monica was very young and the tour and her peers didn't support her, not even the law courts who set her attacker free, I'm surprised she returned at all. Also it changed her mentality and look on her tennis and life, she would never become the same after that.

steffilover
Feb 26th, 2003, 10:44 PM
i feel really sorry for you....you must wait around every thread, just hoping for a chance to trumpet your "poor monica" story to the unsuspecting and gullible.....you really need to move on in life before it's too late...you MORON:rolleyes:

selesrules
Feb 26th, 2003, 10:50 PM
another idiot. I didn't bring this up, I'm defending Monica from the insults you guys are throwing at her and claiming that Steffi is the victim. BITCH.

And I do have a life, this is a tennis message board which is 0.001% of my life.

earthcrystal
Feb 26th, 2003, 10:50 PM
Obviously, after some very thoughtful posts (thanks to Spirit and others) this thread is deteriorating. Too bad, because there was some thoughtful discussion and insight going on.

And I'm sorry to the aforementioned great posters for sinking to this level, but Fortis you need to get your head out of your ass. You're ranting like some kind of lunatic conspiracy nut.

One can only wonder how much your more inane babbling there was b4 your edits. So, Monica's just a media whore, isn't that what you're intimating? And her "image" is a media fallacy? Everyone has an agenda to make Steffi look bad? This was so out there I nearly busted a gut. First of all, what you see is what you get with Monica. She's about as humble a person as I've ever known. And I know her. You don't. End of debate. That said, I've always felt that it was, as I think much of what Spirit posted illustrated, a no-win situtution for Steffi. So, you're entitled to say "poor Steffi" in that regard. However, the way you chose to do it, was beyond laughable and thoroughly absurd.
Please, go back on your meds.

Hurley
Feb 26th, 2003, 10:57 PM
To be fair, a lot of people were annoyed by Monica when she first burst upon the scene. I know I was. She could be very grating to some people, and was. To say "she was never annoying" is an immature dismissal of some people's perfectly valid opinions.

That's all I have to say.

Fortis
Feb 26th, 2003, 10:57 PM
I have read that they both had lunch together at the Ericcson in 2000. So I guess their relationship is not bad.

It is think the media and the former tennis players turned commentators who are really at fault. Television commentators are often told to build public sympathy so that they can sell a story that viewers can follow...

Fortis
Feb 26th, 2003, 11:01 PM
As I said.. Poor Steffi...

When John Mcenroe who has a personal agenda begins to chime in with the Seles was dominating Graf nonsense ( and you know he knows better) then I can't help but believing it is all orchestrated, Where were the Seles sympathizers in 1996, 1997 and 1998. Why did they suddenly re-emerge when Graf retired ??? Coincidental?? I think not. My head is on my shoulders and I think with it.

selesrules
Feb 26th, 2003, 11:07 PM
why? because when steffi retired, it was time to look back on her career and the stabbing had a huge impact on it. It's not a coincidence, it's LOGIC. Of course they are going to talk about it when Steffi retired. :rolleyes:

disposablehero
Feb 26th, 2003, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by earthcrystal

One can only wonder how much your more inane babbling there was b4 your edits. So, Monica's just a media whore, isn't that what you're intimating? And her "image" is a media fallacy? Everyone has an agenda to make Steffi look bad?

Steffi doesn't need a bunch of people with an agenda to make her look bad. Grinning from ear to ear while she held up the 93 Roland Garros trophy was a good enough job herself. Or any of a few dozen other things.

Tennis Fool
Feb 27th, 2003, 12:02 AM
Originally posted by DiVaMoNiCaSeLeS
What the????? I have to agree with Selesrules for once "what an idiot". Poor Steffi??? :confused:

The "old" Monica loved the limelight, the Monica of today seems to less so but... None of us know what she is really like.

As Jonathan Weirhem said in his book, she is the "Greta Garbo" of the WTA tour. I think she's probably always been like that, but even more so since the stabbing. Here are two items. One shows the media's perspective on the "new" Monica. The other is the an article on her "old" personality...

Really, is it any different???

1. From an interview at the 1999 US Open.

Q: People really still remember you in your early years, when you had a real innocence, specifically in terms of the US Open, you used to come into the interview room and you were wide-eyed and excited about being at the sideline of an NFL game or shopping for hats at Barney's. How has Monica Seles changed?

MONICA SELES: I still do that. You guys just don't ask me about it (laughter).


2. On Monica's return after skipping Wimbledon in 1991: (From Sports Illustrated)

Truth or where?
Monica Seles's return from exile was
a media event even her idol,
Madonna, might have envied.
(women's tennis) Sally Jenkins.

WHEN MONICA SELES GOT ready for her close-up, it all became too much. The phalanx of cameras, which did nothing to disabuse Seles of the notion that she was the portrait of a young starlet, was a little much. The T-shirt she held up that read ROME, PARIS, WIMBLEDON, MAHWAH -- but with the Wimbledon crossed out -- was definitely too much. Seles herself was really too much, batting her eyes, cradling an expensive little dog in her arm and affecting a breathy voice -- you expected her to call you "dahling" at any moment -- until you didn't know which she deserved more, a screen test or a cream pie in the face.

When Seles, the self-styled mystery woman and wannabe star of stage and screen, resurfaced in a blaze of publicity last week, 27 days after withdrawing from Wimbledon and disappearing from public view without explanation, it was difficult to remember that she was nothing more than a 17-year-old truant suffering from shin splints.

In what was the silliest performance of the year by a major athlete, Seles ended nearly a month of wild innuendo as to her health -- she wasn't pregnant, as a London tabloid had speculated -- and whereabouts with a three-ring press conference last Thursday before her participation in an exhibition tournament in Mahwah, N.J.

Is Seles just a hurt kid who wanted to get away from it all? Or is she a savvy publicity prankster who, amid the Wimbledon flap, staged a photo (page 2) in which she wore a wig -- her father, Karolj, had one on too -- as she stepped out of a white limo, a la her role model, Madonna?

But though Seles may have created this entire melodrama to emulate Madonna (Truth or Where?), it came out like Zsa Zsa Gabor. Or Milli Vanilli. While no one would dispute that Seles was genuinely injured, there was some evidence to suggest that her intriguing silence and subsequent grand entrance at Mahwah had been orchestrated. She had even rehearsed the night before the press conference with a publicist and a tape recorder. "The best part is that now I can walk down the street without a disguise," she said, dramatically.

But some facets of the Seles affair were neither glamorous nor comical. Seles gave no clear explanation or apology for her lack of response to repeated inquiries from Women's Tennis Association executive director Gerard Smith, Wimbledon referee Alan Mills and her own representatives at International Management Group. And all were greatly embarrassed by her unwavering refusal to reply. In Mahwah, Seles said, , "I needed my time alone," and added that even as the tennis world was abuzz over her inexplicable disappearance, she had been unaware of the controversy. If Seles was so unaware of the storm she was creating, why did she feel compelled to go about disguised in a wig?

Still, it was surely inappropriate for the game's top-ranked player to use an outlaw exhibition -- for which she pocketed a $350,000 guarantee -- as the occasion for her comeback, while reneging on her commitment to play Federation Cup for Yugoslavia the following week. Seles's appearance at Mahwah, which ended on Sunday with a straight-set loss to Jennifer Capriati, discomforted even the shakers at IMG. The Mahwah deal with Korff was made by Zoltan, not the agency.

In the end, there was nothing to make of Seles's antics except that she is a most independent and unpredictable star. If Smith was inclined to go easy on Seles, it was probably because she is a lively, intelligent player, one who theretofore had displayed a more developed sense of history and responsibility than most players her age. Also, that Seles would disappear from view was not inconsistent with the kooky persona she has often displayed during her brief career. She had a thing for wearing wigs even before her Wimbledon pullout and a habit of booking early-morning practice courts so no one could watch her working out.

At the same time, Seles shamelessly courts publicity. She has proclaimed her ambition to become an entertainer, once remarking that since she can't sing, "I'll just act."

Tennis Fool
Feb 27th, 2003, 12:22 AM
From two more insightful SI accounts of her return:

1. Though Seles's 23-month absence is the longest of her career, it's not the first time she has slipped out of sight. In 1993 she missed 63 days with an unspecified viral infection, and in 1991, shortly after becoming No. 1, she went incommunicado and skipped venerable Wimbledon. In the firestorm that ensued, the frothing British tabloids suggested everything from the possibility that Seles was pregnant (or a "Wimble-mum") to the notion that she was romancing Donald Trump. When Stephanie Tolleson, Seles's agent, finally tracked her down, she implored Seles, "Say something. At least let me tell them all you're not pregnant."

Seles shot back, "How do you know I'm not?"

Even in the best of times, Seles is a bundle of contradictions. She can be charming yet coy, good-hearted but peevish, publicity-loving and abruptly inaccessible. She cultivated an image as a glamorous enigma. Yet she often becomes hurt or angry when, inevitably, she's misunderstood. She insists on near-total control while reserving her right to act unpredictably."

2. She still giggles at odd moments, thrills at meeting someone famous. But despite everything else, she has, in her absence, become an adult. When she goes out now, she'll wear baggy clothes, thick glasses, let down her hair. "I've learned how to go unnoticed," she says.

Yet Seles still delights in being discovered, maintaining the instinct for publicity that has kept her bobbing into view during the Grand Slams she didn't play. There was absolutely no need for her to announce her comeback on the day of one of the best women's finals in Wimbledon history, but there she was at her press conference in New Haven shortly after last Saturday's epic Graf-Arantxa Sanchez Vicario duel. There was no need for her to announce her exhibition with Navratilova during the French Open, but word conveniently leaked during the first week of the Paris tournament. While denying that she's trying to upstage the Slams, Seles admits it. "That one was timed by Caesars and those guys to get the most publicity," she says of the decision to announce the July 29 exhibition during the French.

Such flakiness in a great talent, of course, makes Seles compelling in a way that Sanchez Vicario will never be. "She's a drama queen," says Chris Evert. But the drama also leaves plenty of room for people to suspect your motives. Seles's sponsor, Fila, sued her last December for breach of contract and fraud (the latter charges, Seles says, have since been thrown out), saying that Seles misled the company about three supposed comeback attempts. Seles denies this, as well as rumors that she stayed away from the tour to collect a fat insurance check. "Some people felt, Monica is faking it, but why would I fake it? There's no logic," Seles says. "I love to play tennis, and for the past 2-1/2 years, I have lost all my income. I've not received anything from the endorsements, and I've never had an insurance policy. Someone said, 'Monica orchestrated this.' Why wouldn't I play? It doesn't make sense."

Seles knows there are people who don't understand her skittishness so long after the fact, but her story is simple: She once had a place where she could exercise a gift appreciated by the world. Consider how that must make a 17-year-old feel. "I was so in control on a tennis court," she says. "If I wanted the ball to go here, it would go here 80 percent of the time. I lost all the control I felt I had. And the life I felt I had.

CondiLicious
Feb 27th, 2003, 02:33 AM
Originally posted by selesrules
Monica was never annoying. :rolleyes: In fact, even when she was no.1 before the stabbing, she was probably the nicest no.1 ever. She's always been nice, did you see her interviews back then like after her matches like the 92 french open final, 91 us open semi, among thousands of others? She was extremely nice, shy, cute, always giggles, nothing close to annoying. The only things that could be categorized as annoying was that she talked very fast and that she grunted, but the talking is actually cute and the grunting has become the norm these days, everyone does it. In fact she was a SAINT compared to the likes of Hingis and the Williams when they were between 16-19 years old. Some people need to get a clue.

Um... She was annoying. She annoyed me so that makes her annoying. Fine that she didn't annoy you. However, Monica was always my favorite player to watch. And I rooted for her in every match she played, I just turned the TV off when she spoke.

Joseosu19
Feb 27th, 2003, 02:51 AM
Originally posted by disposablehero
Steffi doesn't need a bunch of people with an agenda to make her look bad. Grinning from ear to ear while she held up the 93 Roland Garros trophy was a good enough job herself. Or any of a few dozen other things.

What do you want Steffi to do...Be sad because she won the French Open? I guarantee you if the shoe was on the other foot, Monica would have been smiling with that trophy.

spencercarlos
Feb 27th, 2003, 03:33 AM
Originally posted by selesrules
When Steffi never admited that without Monica it took away some importance of her wins, I wanted to punch her. Not admiting it and pretending that nothing happened is IGNORANT and IDIOTIC and shows IMMENSE DISRESPECT TO MONICA.


Here is some info for you Selesrules, you really show to me that you follow little about tennis and have a really hard head.

Steffi Quoting
Q. Someone said on television you issued a plea for a good wish to Monica. Could you elaborate on that?

STEFFI GRAF: Well, Pam asked me probably Monica is watching. And if she were would I say something and I said that I miss her and hope that she is going to come back soon.

http://www.asapsports.com/tennis/1995lipton/032595SG.html


Graf saw Seles at the hospital
http://www.geocities.com/steffiarticles/93us-06.htm

kku
Feb 27th, 2003, 03:53 AM
Whatever anyone says, Steffi was never happy that Monica was stabbed. She's a true tennis champion and it's quite clear that she actually did prefer Monica to be around as her closest rival.

And what someone said earlier about Steffi being unemotional at press conferences (in regards to Monica) so that she can prevent her comments being fabricated is, to me, the perfect explanation. When your famous and successful, the tabeloids and journalists (most notorious: the Brits) always find a way to bend the truth and strike a hate campaign against you. For Graf, she knew very well that the stabbing incident was imperatively sensitive and if she had made public sympathetic gestures towards Monica, there will always be the risk of some idiotic journo who would twist her comments just to create an uproar and sell more newspapers. Just look at the debacle those pesky British tabeloids stirred up when they made complete lies about Monica being preagnent to Monica grunting so that she can put off her opponents. I think that many people have underestimated how damaging the press is and as a result, have partly blamed Graf for appearing so unsympathetic.

If I was in Graf's shoes at that time, I would've done what she did and visited Monica in private instead of feeing the press with opportunities to defame me. Stupid tabeloids :(

irma
Feb 27th, 2003, 06:01 AM
steffi smiled from ear to ear when she won the french 93?

I guess I saw something different then. :o

irma
Feb 27th, 2003, 06:20 AM
she did at wimbledon though but at the french she looked pretty not so happy :o

Lynn
Mar 1st, 2003, 07:16 PM
selesrules said: First of all, prove that Monica said "I want to kick Viele's ass". I've been following her career since the beginning and she never said that.

That is from Jon Wertheim's book, "Venus Envy". I can't find the book to quote from but that's the source.

Tennis Fool
Mar 2nd, 2003, 02:52 PM
*bump*;)

hingis-seles
Mar 2nd, 2003, 05:49 PM
LOL @ Tennis Fool! :D

Lynn, that was from Venus Envy.

PamShriver
Mar 3rd, 2003, 04:04 AM
It always makes me laugh that Graf fans are so quick to attack and jump on anything brought up about the stabbing. They are always the first to say that Monica and her fans should "get over it". Always so hyper-defensive knowing full well that the reality of the situation is that it is not something that can be gotten over. The woman was stabbed! A knife was put into her back on the tennis court, you know, the place where she made her living, the place where she had always excelled, not just excelled but became the best player in the world? Graf fans cannot make the stabbing go away, it is there, will always be there. Much in the same way there will always be an invisible asterisk over Monica's name in the recored books-that she could have achieved so much more, had not an INSANE GRAF FAN stuck a sharp piece of metal in her back in an attempt to take her life-so Graf will always have the invisible asterisk next to her name in the record books that connotes that she won 11 of her 22 GS titles after a deranged fan of hers took out a woman who was dominating the game of tennis in order to allow her to take back the top spot.


Sorry folks, but that shadow will always be there, and while it is not Steffi's fault that this has transpired, she will have to live the rest of her life with the knowledge that her place in tennis history is questionable because of that acts of a madman, just as Monica will have to live the rest of her life questioning "what could have been" thanks to the act of a madman.

CondiLicious
Mar 3rd, 2003, 04:16 AM
It always makes me laugh that Graf fans are so quick to attack and jump on anything brought up about the stabbing. They are always the first to say that Monica and her fans should "get over it". Always so hyper-defensive knowing full well that the reality of the situation is that it is not something that can be gotten over. The woman was stabbed! A knife was put into her back on the tennis court, you know, the place where she made her living, the place where she had always excelled, not just excelled but became the best player in the world? Graf fans cannot make the stabbing go away, it is there, will always be there. Much in the same way there will always be an invisible asterisk over Monica's name in the recored books-that she could have achieved so much more, had not an INSANE GRAF FAN stuck a sharp piece of metal in her back in an attempt to take her life-so Graf will always have the invisible asterisk next to her name in the record books that connotes that she won 11 of her 22 GS titles after a deranged fan of hers took out a woman who was dominating the game of tennis in order to allow her to take back the top spot.


Sorry folks, but that shadow will always be there, and while it is not Steffi's fault that this has transpired, she will have to live the rest of her life with the knowledge that her place in tennis history is questionable because of that acts of a madman, just as Monica will have to live the rest of her life questioning "what could have been" thanks to the act of a madman.

That's what I would have liked to have said if I had the brain power! :)

Bероника
Mar 3rd, 2003, 03:16 PM
Excellent post,Pam Shriver!!
You told it like it is.

irma
Mar 3rd, 2003, 03:29 PM
it makes me laugh that people always put all the horrible steffi fans in the same corner :rolleyes:

and yeah I feel like a victim of this campaign :p ;)

and steffi's place in history was already assured before april 93.

I guess more then it is now though. I see the weirdest things these days :eek:

miranda_lou
Mar 3rd, 2003, 08:12 PM
Stefanie Graf doesn't have to apologize for anything or feel bad about anything. She didn't stab Monica.:mad: Only so-called "fans of Monica Seles imply that Steffi should not be proud of her accomplishments.

Steffi was a major star long before 1993 and she would have made the Hall of Fame if she had retired at the end of 1992.:rolleyes: There is no guarantee that Monica would have continued playing as well as she was playing before the stabbing. I'm not saying she would not have but tennis history is littered with the bodies of players whose flame burns brightly and then go out. Need I name them?

It's ridiculous to even suggest that an * should be beside either Graf's name of Seles' name. What happen, happen and it can't be changed. So why continually bring it up? I can't understand this still going on after 10 long years.:fiery: Surely there are other things to talk about and debate other than two young women who (1) barely know each other; (2) one is retired and one is barely hanging on; and (3) both have moved on and most likely could care less what people on this message board think.:p

hingis-seles
Mar 3rd, 2003, 08:32 PM
For Monica Seles, now a veteran at 24, things have not really changed since she started on the Tour alongside Steffi Graf while Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova were ending their career.

"When you look back at Steffi, she had the same arrogance on court when she was top player, and Martina and Chrissy. I think that when you're number one, you have that a little bit

"I really hope that each one of them is going to be at some point number one in their careers because I really think they deserve it."

hingis-seles
Mar 3rd, 2003, 08:33 PM
Pam Shriver, that post was brilliant! :worship:

Fortis
Mar 4th, 2003, 05:21 AM
Pam Shriver, that post was brilliant! :worship:

Funny I don't think that post is brilliant. It is only stating one point of view. As I said before both Steffi and Monica are victims. Steffi more so in my opinion because a number of people who don't know about the incident have misconstrued Monica's minor injury to a major one...and used the incident to anoint Seles as some sort of saint who can do no wrong.

Look at Paul Pierce he was stabbed 50 times and yet he moved on. My mother likes Pierce and she doesn't appear to have the same feelings to Seles.

Seles is at fault in my opinion as mature people move on (she apparently hasn't and why should she as it keeps her in the spotlight, doesn't it??). The injury was not life-threatening in any way shape or form yet some latter journalists and fans whould like people to believe that.

Seles came back and during the summer of 1995 was winning almost everything in sight until the US Open where she lost to Graf. Seles then went on to win the Australian Open. She also reached the finals of several grand slams.

Seles now has a German hitting partner so why the public grudge against the Germans... after all she was asked to make an input in the trial and she did not.

Many fans understand that both Graf and Seles are victims because of the incident, yet Seles fans act as if she was the only victim.
A number of tennis journalists are biased and have let this influence their work which is unprofessional, imho.

irma
Mar 4th, 2003, 05:37 AM
oh well as long as people don't forget that steffi was already great before the idiot came.
I will always point that out!

I don't know if Monica plays the victim. the only time I felt she did (and some monica fans agree with me on that) was when she wrote her book.

Fortis
Mar 4th, 2003, 05:44 AM
I think she does play the victim. Recently in Dubai, she pointed out to the reporter that she had a hitting partner from Hamburg but that she had not been back to German although she has friends who live there. To me that suggests that someone is playing the victim as she continues to bring up a 10 year old incident. She could easily say to reporters that it's in the past and it's time to move on but she doesn't. That's why you now have journalists regurgitating and embellishing a ten year old story that most people outside of the tennis messageboards have moved on from.

BasicTennis
Mar 4th, 2003, 06:01 AM
I think she does play the victim. Recently in Dubai, she pointed out to the reporter that she had a hitting partner from Hamburg but that she had not been back to German although she has friends who live there. To me that suggests that someone is playing the victim as she continues to bring up a 10 year old incident. She could easily say to reporters that it's in the past and it's time to move on but she doesn't. That's why you now have journalists regurgitating and embellishing a ten year old story that most people outside of the tennis messageboards have moved on from.

first and foremost, Monica wasn't given the right justice in Germany and for sure this incident wouldn't be forgotten easily, it's sure is part of tennis history now.

irma
Mar 4th, 2003, 06:03 AM
I don't know about journalists here

hello people do you want a motivated assistant?

G-Ha
Mar 4th, 2003, 06:10 AM
Monica was stabbed! It doesn't matter how minor or major the physical injury was. Imagine for a moment if you showed up to work (or school) one day and someone attempted to take your life. That isn't something someone will "get over" right away. Yes, it has been ten years, but until any of us are stabbed, I don't really think we're in a good position to judge how Monica should handle the situation.

Fortis
Mar 4th, 2003, 06:20 AM
Monica was stabbed! It doesn't matter how minor or major the physical injury was. Imagine for a moment if you showed up to work (or school) one day and someone attempted to take your life. That isn't something someone will "get over" right away. Yes, it has been ten years, but until any of us are stabbed, I don't really think we're in a good position to judge how Monica should handle the situation.
\
I am not saying that she was not stabbed or anything like that!! I am saying that story has been embellished once too often perhaps and that Seles continues to entertain journalists' comments on an incident that is ten years old. I am not saying how she should act but I know that if I were in her position I would tell the journalists to move on. That's maturity and I would like to think that as a role model I present myself as a mature individual who does not carry grudges against a justice system that performed according to its rules. In hardly any jurisdiction is a proven insane person sent to prison. Should the rules have been twisted for Seles. What's so difficult to understand??

Paul Pierce was was stabbed and he doesn't repeatedly field questions about the incident.

Maturity says let's move on, instead of feeding immature, sycophant-like behavior on tennis messageboards.


Motivated assistant for what , irma??

irma
Mar 4th, 2003, 06:20 AM
I agree G-HA

I can image you never get over it especially not when it happens from behind. I would look over my shoulder all the time probably!

Fortis
Mar 4th, 2003, 06:26 AM
I agree G-HA

I can image you never get over it especially not when it happens from behind. I would look over my shoulder all the time probably!

NOOO, only a paranoid person would do that or someone who is need of attention on a tennis messageboard.

Maturity says move on. Immaturity and various forms of pettiness say let's remain in the past.

I am the type of person who doesn't hold grudges for long and who has a deep sense of justice so when I see this type of behavior and the type of things it has spawned on tennis messageboards I have some difficulty in coming to grips with it.

irma
Mar 4th, 2003, 06:28 AM
I am paranoid :p

I need a journalist job for school!

BasicTennis
Mar 4th, 2003, 06:30 AM
I am the type of person who doesn't hold grudges for long and who has a deep sense of justice so when I see this type of behavior and the type of things it has spawned on tennis messageboards I have some difficulty in coming to grips with it.

you need to be stabbed first and then I'd believe you. :devil:

Fortis
Mar 4th, 2003, 06:35 AM
you need to be stabbed first and then I'd believe you. :devil:

I guess it's these type of nonsensical things I am talking about.

Having read the Seles story and having been around at the time of the incident and having seen how everything has evolved, it's strange but I don't have the type of sympathy for Seles that the media wants me to have. The story has been manipulated too much.

BasicTennis
Mar 4th, 2003, 06:41 AM
I guess it's these type of nonsensical things I am talking about.

Having read the Seles story and having been around at the time of the incident and having seen how everything has evolved, it's strange but I don't have the type of sympathy for Seles that the media wants me to have. The story has been manipulated too much.

are you sure you are not Parche? :kiss: :devil: :kiss:

Fortis
Mar 4th, 2003, 06:43 AM
[QUOTE='BasicTennis']are you sure you are not Parche? :kiss: :devil: :kiss:[


Why because I am not intimidated by Seles' revisionist fans and is willing to call a spade a spade.
:angel: :angel: :angel: :cool: :cool:

BasicTennis
Mar 4th, 2003, 07:12 AM
[QUOTE='BasicTennis']are you sure you are not Parche? :kiss: :devil: :kiss:[


Why because I am not intimidated by Seles' revisionist fans and is willing to call a spade a spade.
:angel: :angel: :angel: :cool: :cool:

LOL naaahhhh don't flatter yourself......you just simply sound like Parche; nothing else.:o

stefanieforever
Mar 4th, 2003, 07:13 AM
It always makes me laugh that Graf fans are so quick to attack and jump on anything brought up about the stabbing. They are always the first to say that Monica and her fans should "get over it". Always so hyper-defensive knowing full well that the reality of the situation is that it is not something that can be gotten over. The woman was stabbed! A knife was put into her back on the tennis court, you know, the place where she made her living, the place where she had always excelled, not just excelled but became the best player in the world? Graf fans cannot make the stabbing go away, it is there, will always be there. Much in the same way there will always be an invisible asterisk over Monica's name in the recored books-that she could have achieved so much more, had not an INSANE GRAF FAN stuck a sharp piece of metal in her back in an attempt to take her life-so Graf will always have the invisible asterisk next to her name in the record books that connotes that she won 11 of her 22 GS titles after a deranged fan of hers took out a woman who was dominating the game of tennis in order to allow her to take back the top spot.


Sorry folks, but that shadow will always be there, and while it is not Steffi's fault that this has transpired, she will have to live the rest of her life with the knowledge that her place in tennis history is questionable because of that acts of a madman, just as Monica will have to live the rest of her life questioning "what could have been" thanks to the act of a madman.
what you said is very good, :bounce: but i have to make a complementarity.in the record books ,the disadvantageous and secular influence on steffi graf from the stabbing and the seles' autobiography while steffi was striving for those slams will be taken into account too :bounce:

Fortis
Mar 4th, 2003, 07:24 AM
LOL naaahhhh don't flatter yourself......you just simply sound like Parche; nothing else.:o


I know I am being rational so nothing anyone says here means anything to me. It's just words. As I said, maturity says move on.

Scorch
Mar 4th, 2003, 08:08 AM
I know I am being rational so nothing anyone says here means anything to me. It's just words. As I said, maturity says move on.

Fortis

Let me just throw some robust and reliable information into the argument here. I have taken these facts from a victim support website. They shed some light on how people can react after being a victim of crime…

People react to crime in many ways. Although most victims will not suffer long-term harm, both adults and children can be affected and may experience very strong emotions. The feelings which are most commonly described include: shock, upset, worry and fear. People may also feel angry about what has happened, lose confidence or experience guilt and depression.

How an individual reacts, and their subsequent recovery, will depend on an infinite number of factors - not least that individual's personality, life experiences, the reactions of others, and whether or not they receive any support after the offence. Their recovery will also be influenced by the nature of the offence and factors like their relationship to the offender.

If you are rational you have to agree that personalities differ enormously so to say that this Paul Pierce guy reacted differently to being attacked does not demonstrate the validity of your supposed argument. You may as well say that Paul’s favourite colour is blue while Monica’s is yellow. How Paul Pierce reacted does not matter. Clearly the relationship between Monica and her attacker is very complex. It is based on Monica’s success. Had Monica not been successful the attack would not have happened. Here are some more facts…

People often find coming to terms with a crime difficult because it has been perpetrated deliberately. It is fundamentally different from an accident or illness, because the crisis has been brought about intentionally by another person.

Some people (though I have not seen it in this thread) have equated Monica’s attempted murder to suffering an injury. As if having a knife plunged into your back is akin to twisting an ankle. Monica was subjected to something no other tennis player has experienced before and please God will never happen again. It was an extraordinary event, is it any surprise that the media brings it up from time to time? Of course not. Does Monica have the right to express her opinion if she is asked for it? Damn right she does.

People may experience numerous losses, such as direct physical and financial losses, as well as loss of confidence in society, loss of self-esteem or a loss of faith. For some people, becoming a victim of crime is an ongoing experience. Monica lost her confidence and faith in herself and her profession. That is why she was out of the game for so long.

While most victims recover swiftly, a small number of individuals may experience a more severe, long-lasting reaction. These individuals are sometimes described as suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD), a syndrome which can be found in a person who has been traumatised. These people may require specialist intervention to assist their recovery. Monica was one of these individuals.

Victims may also experience great distress because of the way they are treated by others - how people react to them and their situation. People often don't know what to say and so may avoid the subject, which can leave victims feeling isolated and alone. In addition, many victims feel guilty about burdening family and friends and causing them distress by talking about the crime. I hope to God that there were no people with your ‘rational’ way of thinking anywhere near Monica after the stabbing.

Victim Support has found that all too frequently an individual's initial reaction on becoming a victim of crime is then reinforced or intensified by their experience of the criminal justice process. We know how Monica feels she has been treated by the German courts. How would YOU feel?

It is important to remember that family members, children, friends, witnesses and others who surround the direct victim of crime may also be affected. They may feel concern for the victim, fear or guilt that they couldn't help, as well as an increased sense of their own vulnerability. It is important to remember that this has affected all those people closest to Monica. It would have dramatically altered her family life. Her world was turned upside down. Simple. As. That.

So when you say Monica is ‘playing the victim’ what do you mean? As far as I can tell she was a victim and when asked about the stabbing she sometimes chooses to describe how she feels.

When you say Steffi is more of a victim what do you mean? How is this possible?

When you talk about Monica’s minor injury do you have any comprehension of the psychological affects an attack of this nature has on a victim? No.

When you say Monica has not moved on what do you mean? She is playing tennis again. She is back in the very position where she once felt most vulnerable. She is winning matches, sometimes tournaments. Of course she has moved on.

When you say ANYTHING is there ANY indication that your thinking is RATIONAL?

I think not.

stefanieforever
Mar 4th, 2003, 08:28 AM
Scorch
what you repeated is experience of seles,but there aren't rational and sane affiliations with steffi graf.there are some people wanting to confuse it with the hurt of seles :bounce:

wave
Mar 4th, 2003, 09:37 AM
You really want to tell us that it was harder for Steffi to win the 11 Grand Slams after the stabbing??? Are you nuts?

I'm sure that Steffi would have prefered that the stabbing didn't happen. And yes she was kind of a "victim" too. But to say that both were a victim meaning in the same intensity is laughable. She profited from Monicas absence, no way to deny that.
Steffi fans have no right to say "get over it, it was 10 years ago..." and "Monica played the victim". She was and is the victim, all that bubble on history and how great Steffi is (greater than Martina N., etc.), will only remind those of us who know about tennis, that there is and will always be a "but" behind that. I'm sorry for both, first of all for Monica, but also for Steffi that it is that way, but there is nothing we can do about it.

Fortis
Mar 4th, 2003, 09:49 AM
Scorch...

And the purpose of your rant is to make me see your side of the story. I think not. Words like like attempted murder are just an attempt at emotionalism and hysteria.It was not attempted murder..it was a superficial wound for which Seles did not even require hospital stay. The trainer told her that it was a slight wound. The injury did not require hospital stay but she remained there overnight. Yet, there is a lot written as if it were some major, life threatening injury. Why is the public being misled???Seles recovered in weeks and was skiiing , etc. and trying to discover herself as she said. She had a lot to gain from staying way from the tour as she had big lawsuits against the tour itself and the organizers. All I am saying is that the incident is being made to be bigger than what it was... It went the way of all stale news stories some time ago and suddenly it has been resurrected..Strange...

A mature person in Seles' position would have told the press to move on (I know I would have) but she seems to like the attention it brings her. Without it where would she be ??? (and I am not being cruel, I am just being matter of fact).
I was badly bitten by a dog and I grew to overcome my fear of those animals. I just can't understand how some one who refused to participate in a trial turns around and judges the system.

stefanieforever
Mar 4th, 2003, 09:52 AM
you say so just for steffi graf is just the best!
S-and doing are two things.

irma
Mar 4th, 2003, 09:58 AM
I was badly beaten by a dog too in my butt when I was 5

I am still scared of big dogs now. I don't have to do anything with them anyway so it's not that bad. people are much worse :angel:

Fortis
Mar 4th, 2003, 09:59 AM
You really want to tell us that it was harder for Steffi to win the 11 Grand Slams after the stabbing??? Are you nuts?

I'm sure that Steffi would have prefered that the stabbing didn't happen. And yes she was kind of a "victim" too. But to say that both were a victim meaning in the same intensity is laughable. She profited from Monicas absence, no way to deny that.
Steffi fans have no right to say "get over it, it was 10 years ago..." and "Monica played the victim". She was and is the victim, all that bubble on history and how great Steffi is (greater than Martina N., etc.), will only remind those of us who know about tennis, that there is and will always be a "but" behind that. I'm sorry for both, first of all for Monica, but also for Steffi that it is that way, but there is nothing we can do about it.

As I said both are victims. Seles was the direct victim and Steffi was the indirect victim. I have a stronger sympathy for Graf because Seles is the one who is being treated like she is a saint and can do no wrong. Graf is the one who had to carry on with the tour in the absence of the Seles and deal with all the negativity and yet she persevered. Graf had to beat seven players to win each of her grandslams and was only a few points away from number one when the incident happened, yet people act differently. How about Aranxta and the grand slams she won after Seles was away??
I know that even after coming back from an injured knee Graf was able to beat Seles at the French Open in 1999.

irma
Mar 4th, 2003, 10:10 AM
steffi won 6 grand slams when monica was out.
4 from 93-94 and 2 in 95

Fortis
Mar 4th, 2003, 10:16 AM
steffi won 6 grand slams when monica was out.
4 from 93-94 and 2 in 95

And your point is??????????? As I said she had to beat seven players to win each of them so did Aranxta.

BasicTennis
Mar 4th, 2003, 10:19 AM
I know I am being rational so nothing anyone says here means anything to me. It's just words. As I said, maturity says move on.

I couldn't agree more, you do sound like a matured Parch.:wavey::D

Fortis
Mar 4th, 2003, 10:22 AM
I couldn't agree more, you do sound like a matured Parch.:wavey::D

I hate arguing here as the level of immaturity of some posters
challenges that of a first year kindergarten pupil.

Fortis
Mar 4th, 2003, 10:26 AM
I would love to be a tennis journalist. Anytime Seles and her lackey journalists brought up the stale incident I would just say but we are in 2003...So, what was the reason behind your two chokes against Henin-Hardenne in the final at Dubai. I am sure I would be the life of the party. :cool: :cool: :cool: :p :p

irma
Mar 4th, 2003, 10:27 AM
I have said a million times that it was not fair that steffi is seen as an ultimate loser because her name was trown into it while others are seen as great (not only asv but also the solid number 8 from 90-93)

BasicTennis
Mar 4th, 2003, 10:27 AM
I hate arguing here as the level of immaturity of some posters
challenges that of a first year kindergarten pupil.

It takes one to know one.;)

Fortis
Mar 4th, 2003, 10:38 AM
When the petty people have come and gone, Steffi will still be in the record books with a calendar slam (which the wta will do anything for Serena to achieve) weeks at No. 1, 22 grand slams , 107 legitimate titles (not padded by exhibitions)and four grand slams on each of the four surfaces.

irma
Mar 4th, 2003, 10:42 AM
I know but certain so called journalists will try it anyway. let's see if they put her in the hall of fame next year as she should!

Fortis
Mar 4th, 2003, 10:46 AM
Back to the original theme of the thread. As I said I have heard that Monica Seles and Steffi Graf had lunch at the ericcson in 2000 so I guess that their relationship is not that bad so the fans should just relax and be :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

Scorch
Mar 4th, 2003, 10:48 AM
So the guy who stabbed Monica was trying to do what? Tickle her?

It may not have been attempted murder, proving either way is very difficult. One thing is known and that is that Monica leant forward as the guy stabbed her so the wound would have been deeper. He was at least trying to inflict enough harm to put her out of the game. As it turned out it was the mental harm which was far greater.

Fortis you are clearly unwilling to recognise the trauma that an event like this can cause to an individual and you are clearly an ardent fan of Steffi. In fact it seems that you are so loyal to Steffi that you can't help but spout contorted bs about the indicent.

BasicTennis
Mar 4th, 2003, 10:56 AM
So the guy who stabbed Monica was trying to do what? Tickle her?

It may not have been attempted murder, proving either way is very difficult. One thing is known and that is that Monica leant forward as the guy stabbed her so the wound would have been deeper. He was at least trying to inflict enough harm to put her out of the game. As it turned out it was the mental harm which was far greater.

Fortis you are clearly unwilling to recognise the trauma that an event like this can cause to an individual and you are clearly an ardent fan of Steffi. In fact it seems that you are so loyal to Steffi that you can't help but spout contorted bs about the indicent.

Fortis is parchley-matured enough to fathom aforementioned statement.;)

Fortis
Mar 4th, 2003, 10:59 AM
Hey Scorch life is too short to be wasted on a pointless discussion.

Just be :cool: and stop the quibbling over a stale 10 year old incident which has been manipulated so much some people can't even tell the beginning from the end or the top from the bottom.

I am basically someone who questions everything and the sudden resurrection of the incident as me questioning why now. The way it has been embellished for a new tennis audience is also suspect too.

Why did Seles bring it up in Dubai??? Shouldn't people move on after TEN years. I know I would have.

Fortis
Mar 4th, 2003, 11:02 AM
No I am far too mature to take part in the mud slinging and pettiness that the Seles fans engage in. :wavey: :wavey:

BasicTennis
Mar 4th, 2003, 11:09 AM
No I am far too mature to take part in the mud slinging and pettiness that the Seles fans engage in. :wavey: :wavey:

you can only convince yourself.;) you deserved to be stabbed one day.;)hehehe...you're matured enough to experience this IMO. :wavey: :devil:

wave
Mar 4th, 2003, 11:14 AM
Fortis: By reading your messages we can surely see that you are "just reasonable" :rolleyes: and have no personal grudge against Monica and her fans... :o

It seems to me that you didn't get over that stabbing, too, since you dislike Monica in a way that is rather ostentatious.

I have no problem to read messages of Steffi fans like Irma who writes rationally and thoughtfully about Steffi and other players. Steffi is a great player, has been before Monica's stabbing and was it also after that. I, myself have the opinion that her greatness would have been smaller without the stabbing, but that is something we can never change. Nevertheless we should not be quiet about it because a stabbing on court with the intention to stop Monica from being the best player (better than Steffi at least in the thoughts of Parche) is not a "dog bite". Don't take this wrong, I'm sure you suffered there too and it is good that you "overcame" it.
And I agree that also other players profited from Monicas absence like Arantxa.

As there are also Monica fans who just see everything through the eye of her favourite (or what they think is the eye of her), it is sad, but not unsusual for the board. Just don't try to tell us that you are "reasonable". And stop believing it yourself, too.

Fortis
Mar 4th, 2003, 11:17 AM
you can only convince yourself.;) you deserved to be stabbed one day.;)hehehe...you're matured enough to experience this IMO. :wavey: :devil:

Oh Goody, another intellectually challenged person on the WTAWORLD messageboard. :wavey: :wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

I don't think like you people. I just don't. I don't care whether you see my point of view or not. :wavey: :wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

BasicTennis
Mar 4th, 2003, 11:23 AM
yeah right....convince yourself more.;):p

Fortis
Mar 4th, 2003, 11:24 AM
I am reasonable.. And I don't care what anyone says.

I know I am being mature when I say Seles should get over it and move on with her life ( she obviously hasn't). Is it healthy to rehash a ten year old incident. What is the motive?? I don't see this being done elsewhere.

I don't dislike Seles at all. In fact I was cheering for her in 1999 and 2000.

Because one dares to see an incident rationally doesn't mean one is biased against Seles. I am not.

The incident has been milked dry of its sympathy factor and that's the plain truth. As I said mature people move on and don't hold ten year grudges.

Fortis
Mar 4th, 2003, 11:28 AM
The intimidation factor is high. Typical modus operandi of the Seles fans mafia. But, I :angel: maintain maturity says move on and don't hold grudges. :angel: :angel: :angel:

Scorch
Mar 4th, 2003, 12:02 PM
If you are reasonable and mature you could provide some evidence that Monica has not 'moved on.' The fact that it is occasionally mentioned during some of her interviews is not evidence. You show absolutely no insight into the situation at all. Your opinion on the subject is juvenile.

miranda_lou
Mar 4th, 2003, 01:49 PM
On really, Fortis, I don't know why you bother.:o Your posts are reasonable and point out that Monica came back and WON a Slam and made the finals of several more Slams and generally played like the great player she was before the stabbing. But her "fans" can't get over the fact that she hasn't continued to win. They seem to not understand that Monica allowed herself to get out of shape and that caused her to miss out on winning Slams she should have won during Hingis' heydays.:o I contend that Monica should have won at least three of those five Slams that Hingis won. She didn't because she let herself get fat.

I also think Monica's "fans" are angry because Steffi beat her at the French in 1999. Rather than point out how great that particular match was, they simply don't mention it or they point out that Monica "lost her dear old dad" and was still grieving.:devil: Isn't that bizarre?

Anyway, there is no "reasoning" with these people but I have to point out that it is only on message boards that people "discuss" the stabbing. But, I'm curious to see what happens when the 10th "anniversary" of the incident comes up and what the international press will say about it.

King Lindsay
Mar 4th, 2003, 02:26 PM
I don't know if you've ever read monica's book, but in it she states that she did not go to germany to testify against parche on her psychiatrists' advice. her shrink felt that having to testify in the courtroom with her back to the man who stabbed her would be too traumatic.

sorry, i don't know if this was clear. according to monica's book, in the german courts, the witness sits with her back to the defendant, unlike the systems we have in north america. i'm sure you can see how this would've been an uncomfortable position for seles.

i think there are a few reasons the stabbing has been suddenly thrust back into the headline. for one, the ten year anniversary is coming up. obviously, it will get some mention because of that. two, the hamburg tournament has folded recently, and any discussion of that tournament will bring about the most famous thing to happen there. three, monica is not getting any younger. retirement talk swirls around her these days, and no discussion of her career is complete without mention of that event.

also, you assert that monica should just get over it because it was ten years ago and that it's immature not to. i think that's moronic, quite frankly. if somebody killed my mother ten years ago, i would not have "gotten over it" today. i would not have forgiven and forgotten. and it wouldn't be immature of me not to.

irma
Mar 4th, 2003, 02:54 PM
why did they need any testify anyway?

it was not that it happened in a dark street with no people around!

Scorch
Mar 4th, 2003, 02:57 PM
Good post King

Miranda lou you are a massive fan of Steffi, good for you. Well done, you must be very proud etc. You picked a real winner to support.

Was there something you forgot to say?

I'm not sure what your post has to do with anything. 1999 French open???? How is that relevant.

Really classy how you put a :devil: after mentioning that Monica lost her dad. Was that intentionally cheap?

"Dear old dad" I take it the use of these words is intended to mock the fact that Monica lost her father or perhaps that people still talk about it. Maybe Monica should get over that too.

I'm really impressed at how some people can trivialise things like this like it is some soap opera and never really happened. Yes some Monica fans step over the line and make outrageous claims. Too many diss Steffi. But you are just as bad as them. Another child.

King Lindsay
Mar 4th, 2003, 03:00 PM
irma, it is ALWAYS helpful to victim's case if they testify. and even if they don't, they should supply a victim impact statement, which i believe that seles did. obviously, monica wasn't needed to prove the event happened. but she was needed to give a first hand account of what took place and how it affected her. what damaged her case was that she was not there to do that, which probably sent the jury leaning towards leniency feeling perhaps that this was so minor an event that the victim did not even bother to show. clearly, that's an unfounded opinion, but it could not have helped that the jury on that case did not get to hear monica's own words coming from her.

miranda_lou
Mar 4th, 2003, 03:18 PM
The accused has the RIGHT to a trial and the "victim" usually shows up to testify whether it is traumatic or not, for that victim.

Not only did Monica not show up to testify at the trial but she did not issue the materials (doctors reports, etc.) that were requested. Her "victim impact statement" was issued about a day before the trial began. The defendant's lawyers had no time to read it or absorb it in order to rebut it. That's not how things are done in a free society.

I would imagine the jury decided she didn't think the trial was important. I can equally imagine that Monica thinks like Irma . . . everybody saw what happen so why is a trial necessary. Well, hello, in a democratic society trials are necessary and if you don't show up to testify the jury think you don't care and that's apparently what this jury thought.

Of course, if you insist on playing the victim and your "wounds" are superficial, then you would be very reluctant to produce a medical report.

King Lindsay
Mar 4th, 2003, 03:38 PM
miranda, there is no rebutting a victim impact statement.

and didn't i already point out the reason monica didn't attend the trial? did you miss that post?

Spirit
Mar 4th, 2003, 03:57 PM
Refutation #1

As I said before both Steffi and Monica are victims. Steffi more so in my opinion because a number of people who don't know about the incident have misconstrued Monica's minor injury to a major one...

It was a major injury. Your insinuation here is that an "injury" can only be a physical thing. An injury can also be an emotional / psychological thing. With Seles, the fact that this was so is indisputable and understandable. It is comparable to being raped. She was specifically targeted for death at the age of 19 by a madman, and the psychological implications of this are huge. You are completely off base to call her injury "minor."

You support your assertion that her injury was "minor" by making the following comparison:

Look at Paul Pierce he was stabbed 50 times and yet he moved on.

This is disingenuous in two different ways:

1. Comparing one person's reaction to a traumatic experience has no validity in judging another person's reaction. Would you think someone who was traumatized by experiencing harsh warfare was overreacting simply because you met someone else who had handled it better? The last I checked, we are not all clones of each other. Therefore, how can one person's reaction invalidate another's? That's an absurd argument to make, and one that I personally find very backwards and disgusting.

2. Seles has moved on, in spectacular fashion, far more than most of her fans and the media have ever done. The fact that you assert otherwise tells me that you don't follow her career or interviews very closely. I know, because I do.

She used her autobiography to tell her story, which she had every reason to do, partially because people with views similar to yours had belittled her troubles, and she was attempting to explain to them that they were not little. Since then, she has gone far out of her way not to mention the stabbing. "I don't want to be known as 'the one who got stabbed,'" she said, many years ago.

When she does mention it, it's the result of reporters who ask the inevitable "stabbing questions" during interviews. This is one of the reasons she has cut far back on interviews in recent years (the others being that she finds them repetitive and they interfere with her concentration for the game).

Additionally, Seles has never once attempted to excuse a loss to any opponent, for any reason, particularly the stabbing. In fact, she's notorious for striving to credit her opponents, no matter what the outcome of the match or what their level of play is.

The only interview excerpt you can offer to support your statement is the one she made recently about her hitting partner. But in the article in which I read that same statement, the reporter claimed she was making that statement in an effort to head off the inevitable media flurry she knows she's about to get clobbered with because the stabbing's 10th anniversary is rapidly approaching.


Refutation #2

Seles now has a German hitting partner so why the public grudge against the Germans... after all she was asked to make an input in the trial and she did not.

This statement is further indication that you do not research Seles enough to speak about her.

Seles does not have a public grudge against the Germans. She has stated this many times. Her refusal to play in Germany is a boycott stemming from outrage at the result of her attacker's trial, an outrage that is perfectly understandable. It is not borne of fear, and it is not borne out of any grudge toward the German people. (In fact, she made the quote you cited in order specifically to make that point, but you missed it.)

Also, Seles clearly stated in her autobiography and in several interviews that the reason she did not testify at her attacker's trial was that the German courtroom is set up in such a way that she would have had to sit with her back to her attacker. She was experiencing so much emotional trauma at the time that she declared this was impossible.

I suspect you'll try to refute that by saying something along the lines of "emotional trauma" not meaning very much. If you do, just let me say in advance that people who say such things cannot possibly know very much about trauma or the human condition.

Additionally, Seles wondered -- rightfully -- why her testimony was needed at all when the man in question had not only committed his crime in full view of a dozen witnesses (12 were officially subpoenaed by the court), but had freely confessed to the crime, as well.


Refutation #3

The only statement you made that I partially agree with, Fortis, is your assertion that journalists have built this story. To a certain extent, that's true, but it's really true with almost every story in the world. They treat politicians the same way -- reducing them to caricatures or images rather than as people with views. Any angle, any feel-good "packaging," is what the media wants. Seles is packaged as a "saint" (and, really, she is a very nice person), while Graf was packaged as an "ice queen," when she has repeatedly stated that that is not accurate. But once the media creates an image, they are loathe to change it.

Seles, as the daughter of a man who worked for a newspaper for many years, knows this as well as anyone. In fact, she lamented being the recipient of this treatment several times in her autobiography. Celebrities learn to live with it; they very rarely control it.

Spirit
Mar 4th, 2003, 04:00 PM
irma, it is ALWAYS helpful to victim's case if they testify. and even if they don't, they should supply a victim impact statement, which i believe that seles did.

She did.

Dennis
Mar 4th, 2003, 04:14 PM
The intimidation factor is high. Typical modus operandi of the Seles fans mafia. But, I :angel: maintain maturity says move on and don't hold grudges. :angel: :angel: :angel:

Fortis Parche,

Stick to your friend Gunther. I am sure you have a lot to talk about.

Dennis
Mar 4th, 2003, 04:16 PM
Good posts King Lindsay and Spirit

earthcrystal
Mar 4th, 2003, 05:23 PM
Bravo Spirit, Pam Shriver, and Scorch. Your posts were thoughtful, rational and well-crafted. Also kudos to irma, a loyal Steffi fan, for participating in the discussion without rancor.

As for Fortis, however...

Fortis is clearly distressed that Monica is more beloved than his idol, Steffi. It's inordinately apparent from his posts, that it appalls him that she will not retire and go far, far away. From her immature, refuses-to-get-over-it attitude; limelight-seeking-media-whoring ways; to the left-wing media "hidden agenda" conspiracy to ruin Steffi's name while elevating Monica to sainthood, Fortis has rational explanations for his hatred. But hey, he isn't biased. He's actually cheered Monica on. In fact, he doesn't dislike her at all.

I am reasonable.. And I don't care what anyone says…
I don't dislike Seles at all. In fact I was cheering for her in 1999 and 2000…
Because one dares to see an incident rationally doesn't mean one is biased against Seles. I am not….

The incident has been milked dry of its sympathy factor and that's the plain truth. As I said mature people move on and don't hold ten year grudges.

Okay, now I'm confused. Let’s review some snippets of this rational, unbiased viewpoint, shall we? Perhaps the truth is in there somewhere.

Post 1: Feb 26th, 2003, 04:55 PM - Last edited by Fortis on Feb 26th, 2003 at 06:06 PM
In all of this Monica Seles has managed to come across as a person who likes the limelight on her...

Post 2: Feb 26th, 2003, 05:50 PM - Last edited by Fortis on Feb 26th, 2003 at 06:04 PM
Poor Steffi. The image of Seles is just that... a media created fallacy….That sacchrine stuff about Seles is created by the media and shoved on to the unsuspecting by her so-called fans…What's the hidden agenda ???...

Post 3: Feb 26th, 2003, 06:36 PM – Last edited by Fortis on Feb 26th, 2003 at 06:42 PM.
I stand by what I have said. There is a hidden agenda by those who wish to continuously repeat a ten year old incident.

Post 4: Feb 26th, 2003, 07:01 PM
When John Mcenroe who has a personal agenda begins to chime in with the Seles was dominating Graf nonsense ( and you know he knows better) then I can't help but believing it is all orchestrated…

Post 5: Today, 01:21 AM
… both Steffi and Monica are victims. Steffi more so in my opinion because a number of people who don't know about the incident have misconstrued Monica's minor injury to a major one...and used the incident to anoint Seles as some sort of saint who can do no wrong…. Seles is at fault in my opinion as mature people move on (she apparently hasn't and why should she as it keeps her in the spotlight, doesn't it??).

Post 6: Today, 01:44 AM
I think she does play the victim. Recently in Dubai, she pointed out to the reporter that she had a hitting partner from Hamburg but that she had not been back to German although she has friends who live there. To me that suggests that someone is playing the victim as she continues to bring up a 10 year old incident….

Post 7: Today, 02:20 AM
I am saying that story has been embellished once too often perhaps……. Maturity says let's move on…

Post 8: Today, 02:26 AM - Last edited by Fortis on Mar 4th, 2003 at 02:32 AM.
Maturity says move on. Immaturity and various forms of pettiness say let's remain in the past.

Post 9: Today, 02:35 AM
… it's strange but I don't have the type of sympathy for Seles that the media wants me to have. The story has been manipulated too much.

Post 11: Today, 03:24 AM
I know I am being rational so nothing anyone says here means anything to me. It's just words. As I said, maturity says move on.

Post 12: Today, 05:49 AM
Words like like attempted murder are just an attempt at emotionalism and hysteria.It was not attempted murder..it was a superficial wound for which Seles did not even require hospital stay. Yet, there is a lot written as if it were some major, life threatening injury. Why is the public being misled??? … but she seems to like the attention it brings her. Without it where would she be ??? (and I am not being cruel, I am just being matter of fact).

Post 13: Today, 05:59 AM - Last edited by Fortis on Mar 4th, 2003 at 06:08 AM
I have a stronger sympathy for Graf because Seles is the one who is being treated like she is a saint and can do no wrong.

Post 16: Today, 06:26 AM
I would love to be a tennis journalist. Anytime Seles and her lackey journalists brought up the stale incident I would just say but we are in 2003...So, what was the reason behind your two chokes against Henin-Hardenne in the final at Dubai.

Post 19: Today, 06:59 AM - Last edited by Fortis on Mar 4th, 2003 at 07:07 AM.
Hey Scorch life is too short to be wasted on a pointless discussion.

Just be :cool: and stop the quibbling over a stale 10 year old incident which has been manipulated so much some people can't even tell the beginning from the end or the top from the bottom…. the sudden resurrection of the incident as me questioning why now. The way it has been embellished for a new tennis audience is also suspect too.
Why did Seles bring it up in Dubai??? Shouldn't people move on after TEN years.

Did that make it any clearer?
I thought so. :rolleyes:

hingis-seles
Mar 4th, 2003, 05:41 PM
I would just like to add that Parche was never sent to jail and if he was so mentally deranged, why wasn't he sent to a mental institute? Monica has also stated on more than one ocassion that she has friends in Germany and thinks it's a beautiful city. She just doesn't play there, because she was treated like dirt.

irma
Mar 4th, 2003, 05:51 PM
well he was not sick according to the judge. putting knife's in people is apparently healthy and normal :o :rolleyes:

on the other hand when a wife who is beaten up by her husband for years does it though, she will be put away for the rest of her life :rolleyes:

hingis-seles
Mar 4th, 2003, 05:56 PM
I think Martina Navratilova said it best!

Martina N on the verdict,"You guys need some serious help with the laws here, in Germany."

wave
Mar 4th, 2003, 06:58 PM
EC: Thanks for collecting all these statements of Fortis. They just show that what I wrote in my last post is true. He is far from being "reasonable".

I also feel that we won't change his opinion if we (some fans of Monica) try to show him why he is not reasonable. This is an item (and we found that out long ago) on which we can't discuss rationally. At least most of the fans from both sides. For me it is easy: Monica got stabbed, was out of the WTA for years, never came back the same way she was (which she has influence on, too), and all I hear from some Steffi fans is whining about how dare the journalists to say there is an asterix to a part of her success...
I am sure that Steffi herself wouldn't think in that way.
Yes Steffi was a victim, too, but less by the stabbing, more by the actions of her father. This is different, although she had not so much influence on that, it is still uncomparable to what happened to Monica.

About the German law-system. Obviously I come from Germany. I didn't understand the result of the trial. My opinion is that if soemone is mentally ill, he has to be sent to hospital and when/if he is healthy again he has to go to prison for what he did. He is now able to understand what he did. To the victim the mental state of the man is no difference why should it be for the judge. The law is different. Still usually he would have spent some years in hospital at least.
As I understand the American law system has some faults, too. Don't forget about that...

Tennis Fool
Mar 4th, 2003, 11:42 PM
So, Monica fans, I'm confused:

Do you think Steffi should have an asterisk next to her post *93 slams?

I'm just curious...

CondiLicious
Mar 5th, 2003, 02:17 AM
So, Monica fans, I'm confused:

Do you think Steffi should have an asterisk next to her post *93 slams?

I'm just curious...

I don't think so. Monica and Steffi's matches were always so close that even if the stabbing hadn't have happened the chances are that Steffi would have beaten her in at least a couple (maybe more) anyway. The only real edge Monica had over Steffi was that she seemed like she'd rather die than lose a match when she was on court (pre April 30 '93)

PamShriver
Mar 5th, 2003, 04:09 AM
This argument is still very silly. Utltimately, Monica WAS stabbed and to suggest that she should "get over it" is ludicrous" the equivalent of telling a rape victim or the victim of child abuse to "get over it". Someone attempted to harm her phyically, with a weapon that can be lethal.

Fortis, you seem like such solid stock, apparantly, if someone were to come into your workplace or your place of safety and stick a sharp cool edge of steel deep into your back and destroy your chances of doing the thing that you love to do most in the world, perhaps you could bounce back. Perhaps, Monica is of lesser character than you! After all, she has only won 9 GS titles in her career and what is that compared to all that you have done in your life.

To suggest that Monica is playing the "victim" is absurd. Were she to do that she would have never returned to the tour. Do you think that all of the losses and the damage that she has done to her reputation by losing to players that a former number one would never lose to is in any way playing victim?

I don't know why I'm arguing with you, you claim to be rational, yet have not an ounce of understanding of human suffering and the trauma that goes with someone ATTEMPTING TO KILL YOU!!! You are not the rational one in this argument, on the contrary, you come off as cold and thoughtless.

I am not saying that Steffi is not a great champion. She is, no doubt about it, however, her career is tainted because of the stabbing. And when you write that you sympathize with Steffi more than Monica, that Steffi, was indeed the real victim is sad and pathetic. Um...Steffi seemed to show no signs of suffering as she dominated the GS's for the two years or so that Seles was out of the game.

I don't really care what you think, because obviously, your perspective is skewed, and perhaps you would like to send a letter to Sharon Tate's family and tell them to get over it, after all the Manson stabbing's happend over 30 years ago. Perhaps they can move on. You seem to be doing a great job...but wait, you and your family members haven't been stabbed or murdered now have they?

Lynn
Mar 5th, 2003, 06:57 AM
No asterisk by Seffi's name or Monica's and just declare Martina N the greatest woman player.

I get so tired of the Monica-Steffi arguments.

Scorch
Mar 5th, 2003, 07:34 AM
Lynn I think you might be in the wrong thread!! ;)

I don't care about any player having an * against their name.

The thing that bothers me is people belittling what happened. It bothers me not only because it is a serious slur on one of my favourite players but also because it is a reminder that there are people out there in society that are completely devoid of any empathy or compassion. That is unsettling.

So put a * next to Monica's name, or Steffi's or Arantxa's. Put a :worship: next to them all too, how about a :bounce: and a :sad: too. I don't care. Compared to having courage and compassion a * is no big deal.

stefanieforever
Mar 5th, 2003, 10:25 AM
her career is tainted because of the stabbing
her career is more precious than others from another point of view, her strive is more affecting,the accident make steffi graf throw herself into tennis more !that is the most important!

stabelizebons
Mar 5th, 2003, 11:08 AM
The incident was a total schock and disgrace to the tennis world and Monica in particular. The thing that bugs me is that no justice was done. Everyone saw what happened and still German justice let Parsche walk away!! I think the reason people put an asterisk next to Graf is that after winning only ONE slam during Monica´s heyday she went on and won the next FOUR after the stabbing. That´s crazy!! I would only put an asterisk next to those four...the rest,tja live goes on.

stefanieforever
Mar 5th, 2003, 11:46 AM
the reason people should put an asterisk next to tennis in that period of time not to steffi graf for beside steffi graf there were other excellent players playing tennis and winning slams,but all the pressure was imposed on only steffi graf . :confused:

stefanieforever
Mar 5th, 2003, 11:52 AM
I think the reason people put an asterisk next to Graf is that after winning only ONE slam during Monica´s heyday
only one? :devil:

stabelizebons
Mar 5th, 2003, 12:09 PM
The reason that people look at Graf mostly is because she won the most after the stabbing.

stefanieforever
Mar 5th, 2003, 12:43 PM
The reason that people look at Graf mostly is because she won the most after the stabbing.
however.steffi graf endure all pressure perennially.
all reason people should know that.

Spirit
Mar 5th, 2003, 02:22 PM
Do you think Steffi should have an asterisk next to her post *93 slams?

No, although, as a Monica fan, I understand the desire to do so.

Primarily, Monica herself does not put an asterisk next to Steffi's wins. As a fan of Monica, I would be doing her an injustice by doing differently.

Secondly, there is no way of knowing "what would have happened." Until someone invents a parallel-universe viewscreen, there should be no asterisks.

Third, if we place asterisks by Steffi's wins, then I believe that the logical conclusion to that action is to decide that those tournaments should never have been played in the first place, which is absurd. The tournaments were played, therefore someone had to win. That someone's achievements should not be thought less of.

Fourth, if we place asterisks by Steffi's wins, then logic demands we do the same for Monica's win at the '96 Australian because Steffi was absent, dealing with her back and with her father's tax problems. Once we start assigning asterisks, where do we stop?

I know how good Monica is. We all know how good Monica is. We all know that what happened was not fair. Placing asterisks by people's wins is not the way to celebrate Monica, neither as a person nor as one of the greatest tennis players the world has ever seen.

bilal
Mar 5th, 2003, 02:30 PM
it was great, the way this thread started...

Spirit
Mar 5th, 2003, 02:57 PM
it was great, the way this thread started...

Yes, it was. I almost quit it, myself, but the really nasty nastiness seemed to die down a few days ago. I just finally gave up and realized this thread was going to wander all over the spectrum.

However, I would like any more info on the Steffi-Monica relationship. (And thanks to H-S for starting it.)

Spirit
Mar 5th, 2003, 02:58 PM
Pics work, too. :)

King Lindsay
Mar 5th, 2003, 03:04 PM
that was a good point. when you start assigning asterisks, where do you stop? steffi didn't play the 1991 or 1992 australian opens. should monica's victory there have an asterisk? i don't think so.

hingis-seles
Mar 5th, 2003, 03:15 PM
Thanks, Spirit. Your posts have been extremely informative and provide a great point of view. They have been extremely appreciated.

Bероника
Mar 5th, 2003, 03:45 PM
So, Monica fans, I'm confused:

Do you think Steffi should have an asterisk next to her post *93 slams?

I'm just curious...

Personally I couldn't care less what Graf does or becomes...I'm never been interested in her and I don't like her.

Lynn
Mar 5th, 2003, 04:23 PM
I'm a Monica fan. Hingis-Seles can tell you that. I have nothing against Steffi--she and Monica were and are great players. What happened to Monica was awful...and to Steffi. But the arguments over who could/would have been the better of the 2 of them had Monica not been assaulted does nothing.

Fate changed their careers and their lives. We ALL know that they will both be considered great. Hall of Famers. Can't we just leave it at that?

irma
Mar 5th, 2003, 04:57 PM
I agree with you lynn.

King Lindsay
Mar 5th, 2003, 05:02 PM
No. we are tennis fans. we like to talk about tennis. seles/graf is one of the most controversial topics in the history of tennis. it's only natural that it should be discussed often and from every angle. besides, what kind of logic is that? if human beings just "left it at that", we'd still be struggling with the secrets of how to be making fire. yes, this topic has been debated to death. yes, the two schools of thought on the subject perhaps have been so polarized it's unlikely there will be true middle ground found. but we can't just "leave it at that" and nor should we.

irma
Mar 5th, 2003, 05:30 PM
it's so sad steffi announced today that she will never write a book:( ;)

Lynn
Mar 5th, 2003, 06:21 PM
yes, this topic has been debated to death. yes, the two schools of thought on the subject perhaps have been so polarized it's unlikely there will be true middle ground found.

You made my point.

Lynn
Mar 5th, 2003, 06:29 PM
Irma: are you the same Irma who posts at WX?

irma
Mar 5th, 2003, 06:34 PM
yes :)

Lynn
Mar 5th, 2003, 06:49 PM
Glad to see you here while WX is being maintained.

hingis-seles
Mar 5th, 2003, 07:35 PM
I can assure you that Lynn is a Monica fan and Irma is from WX!! ;)

Good to see you guys here! :D

stabelizebons
Mar 5th, 2003, 07:39 PM
It was sad happening but that´s life. Gunther Parsche got his wish and Monica will have to live with what Gunther did to her. Graf did what Gunther meant her to do by stabbing Monica so there´s nothing Steffi can do about it.

irma
Mar 5th, 2003, 07:43 PM
:wavey:

hingis-seles
Mar 5th, 2003, 08:13 PM
Irma! :wavey:

Lynn
Mar 5th, 2003, 09:23 PM
Hello Ali. Good to see you again.

Tennis Fool
Mar 5th, 2003, 10:36 PM
The incident was a total schock and disgrace to the tennis world and Monica in particular. The thing that bugs me is that no justice was done. Everyone saw what happened and still German justice let Parsche walk away!! I think the reason people put an asterisk next to Graf is that after winning only ONE slam during Monica´s heyday she went on and won the next FOUR after the stabbing. That´s crazy!! I would only put an asterisk next to those four...the rest,tja live goes on.

I'm TOTALLY playing Devil'a Advocate, and not just focusing on you here, but I have two comments:

1). If justice was "done", ie Parche was sent away to a hole someplace never to be heard of again, would anyone REALLY feel any different about those "gap years" when Monica was out?

2)There is no certainty that Monica's stabbing would have affected the winner of the next four tournaments. We don't know if Steffi or Aranxta or Gabriela or whoever would have won. There could have been an upset or an injury. Steffi won those slams given the circumstances and opponents that she had at the time. I never was a Steffi fan (edited to say except at the 1999 FO finals), but I think putting any asterisk around her would be a true diservice to, not only her, but to the sport of tennis.

It's almost like saying, if Hingis had been stabbed in mid 1998, would that have stopped her run of dominating? Would we put asterisks over Lindsay's name if she went on to win 3 Slams in a row?

If Serena had been stabbed, say right after this year's Aussie, and Venus went on to dominate for the next 4 Slams, would it be fair to put an asterisk besides her name in the records?

Just a few thoughts.

stabelizebons
Mar 5th, 2003, 10:52 PM
One stabbing is enough already. The reason I said about the justice thing is that people are saying that Monica should stop boycotting Germany ,etc....if justice would have been I have to think that Monica would have been much happier or less fearful on court.

Tennis Fool
Mar 5th, 2003, 11:12 PM
One stabbing is enough already. The reason I said about the justice thing is that people are saying that Monica should stop boycotting Germany ,etc....if justice would have been I have to think that Monica would have been much happier or less fearful on court.

BTW, welcome to the boards. :wavey:

stabelizebons
Mar 5th, 2003, 11:56 PM
Thank you, man. Some pretty cool topics around here...

Spirit
Mar 6th, 2003, 04:23 AM
...the accident make steffi graf throw herself into tennis more !

Just a pet peeve of mine (and I don't mean to pick on you, stefanieforever): The word accident specifically means "something unintentional." It bugs me when the attack is referred to as an "accident." Even tennis announcers do it. I'd appreciate it if people didn't.

Thanks.

1jackson2001
Mar 6th, 2003, 08:11 AM
hmm..this is all very interesting

stabelizebons
Mar 6th, 2003, 12:28 PM
Good point spirit. How can people say it was an accident when Gunther had all the intention in the world to hurt Monica?

Spirit
Mar 6th, 2003, 02:20 PM
More trivia (as I recall it):

Nick Bolletieri said in his autobiography that when Steffi stayed at his academy for a few weeks one year, she lived in the same dorm room Monica had lived in when she was a student there. He also said that both Steffi and Monica (he singled them out together) were incredibly nice to his children whenever they met them.

hingis-seles
Mar 6th, 2003, 03:56 PM
Pictures of Steffi-Monica before RG'92 and US Open '95 finals.

Spirit
Mar 6th, 2003, 04:05 PM
Thanks for the pics, H-S. :)

That first one is obviously after Monica's '95 comeback, but it's not the '95 US Open. (Could be '96.) At the '95 Final, Monica wore a white shirt and black-and-white checker-pattern skirt throughout the day. Plus, she looks thinner than she did in '95.

Scorch
Mar 6th, 2003, 04:12 PM
It is the 96 Final, the last final that Monica's dad every saw her play live :sad:

Unfortuantely (depending on your allegiance) Steffi played fantastically and won in 2. I have never seen her serve so well.

hingis-seles
Mar 6th, 2003, 05:13 PM
Sorry, my bad! '96 US Open final. Thanks for making the correction, though.

I just noticed how tense they both look before the 1992 final as opposed to before the 1996 final.

Spirit
Mar 6th, 2003, 06:23 PM
I just noticed how tense they both look before the 1992 final as opposed to before the 1996 final.

Yeah, that '92 FO was intense. I've read interviews in which different people were quoted as saying that both Monica and Steffi wanted that particular FO very, very, very badly.

The way the ranking system worked at the time, Monica's hold on the #1 spot was tenuous despite her incredible record. Steffi had failed at the FO the past two years -- the previous year having been one of her worst losses ever (to ASV). Monica had lost to Steffi in their two previous meetings and most likely didn't want to make it three in a row.

By coincidence, I watched that match last night. I still don't quite know how Monica won that. Steffi's forehand started slipping up, but how much of that was Steffi making errors and how much of that was Monica forcing her to go for riskier shots, I'm unable to tell. Steffi's serve also started to let her down, and Monica was all over her second serve.

That match was fantastic! There were so many incredible points. Halfway through the 3rd set, every mistake became crucial. Several times, the net cord was cruel to Steffi, denying her when she needed it and giving the roll-over to Monica when she needed it. And on Monica's first match point, Steffi unleashed one of the bravest shots I've ever seen, planting the ball in the furthest corner of the court. Another six inches in either of two directions, and she would have been shaking hands at the net immediately afterward.

One of the greats.

hingis-seles
Mar 6th, 2003, 06:32 PM
RG 1992 final, sounds like an epic. I hope to see that match one day.

It seemed to me(from Monica's book) that she also wanted the RG'92 title badly to tie the record for 3 straight RG titles. She almost lost to Kijimuta and Sabatini that year.

hingis-seles
Mar 6th, 2003, 06:34 PM
I don't know if this has been posted before(Spirit, I think you have posted this before, but I am unsure):

FOCUS: How is your relationship with Monica Seles?

Graf: Actually, we have no contact. During the tournaments, she is always only at the facilities quite briefly, clears out right after her match, and trains very early in the morning.

There was actually a first cautious overture during the US Open last year, though there hasn't been an open discussion yet. Maybe we both are a little afraid and therefore haven't rectified the situation yet.

FOCUS: Shortly before Wimbledon, an autobiography about Monica Seles was published about the attack and the controversial sentence of the Steffi-Graf-fan Günter Parche. Are you afraid of a new fuss?

Graf: I'm incredibly sorry about what happened to Monica in 1993. I don't think she reproaches me in her book. But it helps neither of us when this more-than-three-years-old story is stirred up again.

hingis-seles
Mar 6th, 2003, 06:43 PM
There's something about Monica. (tennis star Monica Seles) (includes related information on the 1998 U.S. Open) S.L. Price; L. Jon Wertheim.

She's not a teenager, not a sexpot and not No. 1, but Monica Seles, whose greatest gift is overcoming tragedy, is the most beloved woman in her sport

Monica Seles is already on court when the woman takes a seat in the second row and sets the dead man in her lap. The ball hops with a pock! off the racket of Seles, who is warming up loose and easy, no grunts. It's a cool, clear Wednesday night in Carlsbad, Calif. The people with permatans and cell phones are still ambling in, filling the air with chatter. The woman is Catherine Trachtenberg. She turns to a stranger and asks for a knife; when none is forthcoming, she begins poking her fingers at the small clear plastic bag. The stranger makes a crack and instantly feels stupid: This is my brother, Trachtenberg says, and these are his ashes. Finally she tugs the bag open, leans over and shakes out some of the contents under her chair, frosting the grass below with a fine gray powder. "Monica was his favorite player," Trachtenberg says.

Ever since her astonishing run to the French Open final in June, just three weeks after the death from stomach cancer of her father and coach, Karolj, Monica has found herself engulfed by a tide of public affection that's touching and extreme. Every week brings more mail from people telling how they, too, have lost a parent, a sister, a child. No one is shy. Every trip to the store brings a story about how much someone admires her.

Other players root for her to win. "Some guy took away part of her career, and her dad was taken from her. Anybody can relate to that," says Lindsay Davenport, ranked second in the world.

"Monica, we love you!" a man shouts during tonight's first set, but the support Seles is receiving goes beyond love or pity. It's as if by enduring five years of bizarre, sad, unjust and very public setbacks, the 24-year-old Seles has become one of the few millionaire athletes with whom even the cynical can identify. Who could call her just another spoiled tennis brat? She has won nine Grand Slam singles titles, but no one has proved more vulnerable--to a madman's knife in 1993, to clouds of depression, to life's brutal hits. For anyone who has experienced grief or loss, for anyone over 20, that is, the sight of Seles in this summer of mourning, walking between points with downcast expression, hitting with fury, sets off emotional depth charges. She knows what we know.

Consider her previous 24 hours. On the day before the match in Carlsbad, Seles had lunch and hit with Shelby Anderson, an 11-year-old girl stricken with Lyme disease. The meeting had been arranged by The Starlight Children's Foundation, which allows seriously ill kids to submit three wishes. Seles was at the top of Shelby's list, and not because of her talent. "One reason Shelby picked her is that Monica has suffered and come back," said Shelby's mother, Juanita. "That's why. She's suffered so much."

Later that evening Seles was reading magazines in a Barnes & Noble when a woman approached to say her mother had recently died of breast cancer. "We both started crying," Seles says. "Our parents meant so much to us, and we both had such fresh memories and we hugged, and it was, like, Oh, god! I left thinking, I don't even know this person. But we shared something that's so deep, things I sometimes couldn't talk to my mom about."

Though Seles has every reason to be paranoid, few public figures are as approachable. She has never mastered the celebrity's thousand-yard stare; she engages whoever stops her, grins, thanks the person, asks questions. Despite a death threat made during the 1996 Australian Open, despite her stabbing by a deranged Steffi Graf fan in '93--and the resulting two years of private turmoil and high security--Seles refuses to live in a velvet prison. Some of her closest friendships began as random meetings in restaurants or clubs. She travels coach as often as first class, and last year her mother, Esther, was horrified to learn that, upon arriving in Paris, Monica had accepted a ride from someone she had met on the plane.

Such openness has its price. Throughout Karolj's illness, doctors at the hospital kept asking to have their picture taken with Monica. Last year, when she returned to her hotel room during the Madrid Open, Seles opened the door to find a stranger waiting inside with arms full of tennis paraphernalia. She drew the man out of the room, signed everything he had for her and bolted down the hall. "At least if something happened, someone would hear me," she says.

But tonight at the Toshiba Tennis Classic, the intense devotion that only Seles seems to inspire has reached a surreal pinnacle. After Seles takes the first-set tiebreaker from Sandrine Testud with a screeching backhand winner, Trachtenberg, a nurse who has driven two hours from Los Angeles, screams "Mon-I-CA!" so that everyone in the place can hear. Every once in a while she lifts the half-empty bag to her lips and kisses it. Her brother John Alexander was in a wheelchair, paralyzed as the result of a motorcycle accident, she explains, and he died of a heart attack in January at age 43. He met Seles once, in the early 1990s at a tournament in Manhattan Beach, and something about her touched him. "Monica didn't care that he couldn't walk," Trachtenberg says. "She treated him like a normal person."

Seles falls behind 1-5 in the second set. Trachtenberg goes silent. Then, as the match turns and Seles battles to go ahead 6-5, Trachtenberg revives and shouts to her, "Monica, Mon-I-CA! Jonathan's here." Seles sets to serve match point, and Trachtenberg murmurs into the bag, "Please, please."

Service winner. The crowd erupts. Trachtenberg holds the bag high over her head and yells to the black sky, "Jonathan! She did it!"

The house in Carlsbad is spacious and perfect, country-club chic, sunlight crashing through the windows. Seles sits in the corner of a couch. She has been waiting all day. It's 3 p.m., and she has practiced, rested, talked to agents, friends, kept track of the tournament--and still four hours remain until her match against Testud. The air is still, too quiet. "It's so boring," she says. "It's deadly. I'm just sitting here wasting time."

For two days she has been fighting lingering jet lag and migraines so crushing that the ball sometimes blurs or doubles as she readies to hit, but Seles is used to all that. What hurts now is time and the memories that flood in to fill it. Wherever she goes, whatever tournament or city or airport, it's a place she went with Karolj. He was everything to her: parent, best friend, architect of her game. Every act reminds her of his absence.

Being home is worse. People called her decision to play the French Open courageous, but it grew from fear: Seles felt smothered by the quiet confines of the house she shares with her mother in Sarasota, Fla. After returning from Wimbledon, she still couldn't bear to enter certain rooms because her father's presence was too strong. Her new coach, Gavin Hopper, tried for days to coax her onto the family court; when Seles finally ventured out, she hit for just a few minutes and then demanded that they stop. "I would give anything to bring him back," she says.

Karolj never bullied Monica to practice, but if she picked up a racket, he demanded full concentration, perfect strokes. People marvel at the strength of her return, but the origin of that power is no mystery. "He would serve 500 to 600 balls to me daily without saying a word," Monica says. "When I ask my hitting partners to hit 200, the next day none of them can. My father, until he was 62, would stand there and serve. Every day, six days a week. He loved the game so much. He loved it more than I do."

That's what made the 17 months leading to Karolj's death even more difficult. Since she learned, on New Year's Eve 1996, that his stomach cancer had begun to metastasize, Monica found herself torn between playing tournaments because it made him happy and feeling guilty for being away. She also knew that if she took too much time off, her ranking would drop and she would likely lose some of her endorsement contracts. She was miserable. She gained weight, and her vaunted mental toughness cracked: '97 passed in a parade of horrible losses and blown leads.

It all came to an awful head this past May in Rome. Monica had left Florida thinking her dad had rallied somewhat, but the night before her third-round match against Testud she called home, and no one answered. Karolj had gone to the hospital. She lost the match, and by the time she arrived in Florida, he was barely conscious. She never had a chance to say goodbye. He was 64.

"I regret I went. Those are a few more weeks I should've spent home," Monica says. "The worst was flying home by myself. I'm thinking, I'm all alone. The only thought that helped me was that I was born alone, I live alone, and I'm going to die alone. I knew my mom was there waiting, but I knew my dad wasn't going to be there, and I realized that I had no support in my life anymore, someone to take care of me."

Karolj didn't leave Monica completely alone. Last spring he told her to seek another coach and recommended Hopper. Even while he was sick, Karolj had taken notes as he watched Monica's matches on TV, including her Wimbledon loss last year to Testud after holding a 5-2 third-set lead. While preparing for a fourth-round rematch against--who else?--Testud there this year, Monica called Esther. "She was always there when Dad and I talked, and she writes down everything," Monica says. "I said, 'What was his opinion last year when I lost, what did he think I should have changed?'" This time she beat Testud, 6-3, 6-2.

In Karolj's last weeks he hammered Monica with a message. Since her comeback in 1995, she has shown only glimpses of the player she once was. Distractions--court cases against her attacker, Guenter Parche; his release; her injuries--had left her rudderless. Said Karolj, "You have such talent, you worked so hard as a child, and you're giving it away. If you don't want to give to it fully, to practice and be dedicated like you were, then you're making a mockery of when you were Number 1. Move on."

It's 3:45. Her mother isn't back. Neither is her hitting partner. She loves being alone, craves solitude as plants crave light. But it's an enemy, too, a time when Monica finds herself thinking, What's going to hit me next? She thinks of her father. She thinks of her mother dying someday. "Life is so dark," she says. People tell her to snap out of it, "and I cannot snap out of it," she says. Like Karolj, who seemed so lighthearted yet carried memories of watching his own father, an ethnic Hungarian, tortured by the Communist regime in Yugoslavia, Monica's psyche bears a blackness that can envelop her like fog. Once, she tried to keep that hidden.

"I was definitely a pleaser. Even until last year I always wanted everybody to like me," she says. "Then I realized: Just be who you are. You don't have to make everybody else happy if you're really not happy. I realized with my dad, when he was dying, that everything is so much a facade. The only time you're true to yourself is when you die. You have no pretensions. I don't want to wait until I'm dying to be like that."

She wants another 10 years. She wants to be like Chris Evert and play until age 34, and she's willing to pay the price: She knows she has to get fit, add a one-handed slice, come to the net more. She knows she needs to be three steps faster to keep up with the kids. But the real question is, How will Seles fill the void?She has friends on tour but no one who can relate to the demands of her talent and fame. The one person who could understand her--the way only Martina Navratilova could understand Evert--is Graf. But with one swipe Parche severed their rivalry and left the two bonded only by a guilt and fear that they both want desperately to erase.

"We have a history, but we've never been close at all," Graf says. "I'm trying to be open to people. I'm really trying. But with her, there's been too much between us--too much happening, too much said--that has been difficult for me to understand. It has been years, and we really haven't had any contact since. I was just hoping that time will--well, it will never be gone--but somehow make it easier to live with."

For solace Monica has mostly her mother and friends such as IMG boss Mark H. McCormack and his wife, Betsy Nagelsen, and the crowds who come to see her. She has mixed feelings about her fans these days. When she walks into a restaurant, it feels "like I'm being X-rayed." People ask the most personal questions, but in the end, she says, "it helps. I know I'm not by myself."

Never. On her first day in Carlsbad, after losing a doubles match, Seles wades into a swarm of people at courtside to sign autographs. Quickly, the pack threatens to wheel out of control, men and kids shoving, Seles's bodyguard yelling, "Back off the court!" in a voice edged with panic. Seles keeps scribbling. Pow! A balloon pops: Her body recoils, her face jerks. She grits her teeth and keeps signing: paper, balls, programs. Nothing to do now but push ahead.

At last Seles realized, "You don't have to make everybody else happy if you're not happy."

"He loved the game so much," Seles says of her father."He loved it more than I do."

Bероника
Mar 6th, 2003, 07:35 PM
http://www.infotennis.com/photos/joueuses/images/Seles%20007%20242%20RG90_jpg.jpg


French Open 1990

hingis-seles
Mar 7th, 2003, 02:24 PM
Thanks for the picture, Veronika.

Wasn't it after this match that Steffi said,"She's not a nightmare yet. I hope she isn't becoming one."

Bероника
Mar 7th, 2003, 05:59 PM
Well I'm not sure if it was after the French Open or after the Berlin final that she said that...Maybe somebody else knows it?

Spirit
Mar 7th, 2003, 06:11 PM
Wasn't it after this match that Steffi said,"She's not a nightmare yet. I hope she isn't becoming one."

That was it.

http://www.wso.net/monicaseles/articles/bio3.htm

stabelizebons
Mar 7th, 2003, 07:26 PM
The more one reads about this the sadder it becomes! How can a guy go so far?! How crazy can one be?! Sad, really sad.

Bероника
Mar 7th, 2003, 07:41 PM
Some more pics that I found.These are from US Open final 1995:

http://www.monicaseles.de/1995/us95/95usopen25.jpg

http://www.monicaseles.de/1995/us95/95usopen22.jpg

http://www.monicaseles.de/1995/us95/95usopen24.jpg

hingis-seles
Mar 7th, 2003, 07:48 PM
Thanks for the article, Spirit! :)

Thanks for the pictures, Veronika! :)

irma
Mar 7th, 2003, 07:51 PM
http://members1.chello.nl/i.methorst1/h91.JPG

hamburg 91

irma
Mar 7th, 2003, 07:56 PM
how do I make pic less dark? :o

CondiLicious
Mar 7th, 2003, 09:44 PM
Whenever she's back home in Florida -- just four weeks in the past six months -- Seles swims, plays basketball with her brother's friends, dotes on her Yorkshire terrier, Astro, reads "everything in every magazine every week" and memorizes Paula Abdul dance moves.

Can you imagine her dancing to "Straight Up"?haha

Tennis Fool
Mar 7th, 2003, 10:45 PM
Diva,

You changed your sig! I liked the "look at me, hee hee" sig! It was funny!

oggie
Mar 8th, 2003, 03:12 PM
Said Karolj, "You have such talent, you worked so hard as a child, and you're giving it away. If you don't want to give to it fully, to practice and be dedicated like you were, then you're making a mockery of when you were Number 1. Move on."
After reading this line, I was left with one question: would have Karolj been disappointed in Monica's performance since he had died? Not that Monica's hasn't done well, but she hasn't reached her full potential since then just because she hasn't been in a great physical shape. For that matter, will Monica too be disappointed in herself several years after she retires? Will she be wondering then, when it is too late to do anything about it, how far she just could have gone had she given it her full.

Spirit
Mar 8th, 2003, 08:25 PM
Said Karolj, "You have such talent, you worked so hard as a child, and you're giving it away. If you don't want to give to it fully, to practice and be dedicated like you were, then you're making a mockery of when you were Number 1. Move on."
After reading this line, I was left with one question: would have Karolj been disappointed in Monica's performance since he had died? Not that Monica's hasn't done well, but she hasn't reached her full potential since then just because she hasn't been in a great physical shape. For that matter, will Monica too be disappointed in herself several years after she retires? Will she be wondering then, when it is too late to do anything about it, how far she just could have gone had she given it her full.

Excellent questions.

My guess is that he wouldn't be too disappointed, overall. He always stressed that whatever you do should be fun and enjoyable, and he truly appreciated great athleticism, even if his daughter was on the losing side of it. He is one of the few tennis parents who applauded opponents' great points.

Monica has often said during the past few years that she is having fun and living only in the moment. I think Karolj would be the first to appreciate that.

As far as "giving it her full," I can't help but feel she's almost giving it her full already. I know that sounds odd, but by that, I mean that I can't know what problems she has to overcome, but every article I have ever read about Monica talks about how hard she's working, how much dedication and devotion she puts into her practices. Not one article has mentioned anything about her lazing around on the court or blowing off practice. She just about wiped herself out this time last year playing so many tournaments. People talk about her weight, but she's much more in shape right now than she's been in years, and I think her strength, if not her endurance, is impressive. Find some recent photos and take a look at her upper arms. (Now if she could just stay injury free.)

In fact, in following her career, I have sensed a desperation coming from her. Monica's a smart woman, and despite what she says in press conferences, she's very aware of the ticking clock. Her schedule last year was almost frantic in its intensity. Her actions strike me as those of a woman who is set on not having any regrets when she's through.

Monica could move a little faster and get even further into shape, and teach herself to volley more. But I honestly feel that to cover the whole package of what it takes to be a tennis player, she's just about doing all she can right now. She was vastly out of shape for several years, and she's not going to overcome everything overnight.

She also doesn't strike me as someone who lives with regret. She has adopted a very nice philosophy of letting go of the past, of realizing that whatever she did the previous day, it was what she needed to do at the time, emotionally and physically, and today's a new day.

One somewhat-related question that intrigues me is: What kind of game would she have today if her father were still alive?

Karolj obviously should receive much of the credit for Monica's early skill. His gift was knowing how the human body works and moves, and being able to communicate this knowledge to a 5-year-old in a way that made it fun for her. I have no idea how much her on-court strategy was his, how much was hers, and how much was Nick Bollettieri's (which is a whole 'nother kettle of fish). (However, it is worth noting that even when bed-ridden near the end of his life, Monica would call him long-distance to ask, "What did I do wrong? What can I improve?" and he would give her answers that did indeed help her to win.)

What is the role of a coach when the player has so much drive and talent already? What was Karolj's role, exactly? I don't know. Monica swore by him, and I honestly believe her troubles from 1998-2000 had not one thing to do with the stabbing and everything to do with his loss. If his gift was simply to provide motivation and companionship, then no coach could replace him.

If, however, Karolj's role was to provide actual strategy and to help Monica adapt her game to meet the changing times, then would he have taught her to volley during matches?

Monica claims she can volley just fine in practice, and based on the occasions I've seen her do it on court, I believe her. But I believe volleying takes an instinct -- how to hit an approach shot, when to come up, when not to. Monica has played for so long one way, is it possible that only her father could have gotten her to radically change her style?

Since Monica burst upon the scene in 1989, the game has changed. She used to be the definition of power tennis; people who claimed baseliners couldn't win consistently had simply never anticipated such power and long-range accuracy as she possessed.

Not so, today. Now several people hit harder than she does, and they have begun to do so with almost, if not as much, accuracy and consistency, and they're faster and have more endurance, to boot. In some ways, Monica's a better player than she was in 1993, but everyone else has gotten a whole lot better around her.

Changes in one's environment require changes in one's approach to that environment. That's one of the basic rules of life. I believe that if Monica developed an instinct for volleying, not just learned the mechanics of it, while maintaining her baseline ability (and remain injury-free), she would be a contender for #1 again.

Assuming I'm right (and I could be full of it):

If Karolj were still alive, would he recognize this need and encourage Monica's volleying skills? Or would he stubbornly think that "System A has gotten us this far, why change it?" I don't think Monica would have ever gone against his wishes.

If Monica has trouble learning and applying a new aspect of her game, is at least part of the reason for this a feeling that if she plays the way she always has then she's holding onto the memory of her father? Sort of like a family never taking down the painting that a deceased relative really loved, just because doing so would somehow seem disrespectful or would mean letting go of that person to a greater degree. Because he's dead, does she ever think, "Papa had me play this way, so how could I ever change it?" Even subconsciously? Does letting go of the old way of playing mean letting go of Karolj?

I wonder.

CondiLicious
Mar 8th, 2003, 08:31 PM
Diva,

You changed your sig! I liked the "look at me, hee hee" sig! It was funny!

I liked it too. But disposablehero or whatever that person is called took exception to it.

CondiLicious
Mar 8th, 2003, 08:38 PM
Excellent questions.

My guess is that he wouldn't be too disappointed, overall. He always stressed that whatever you do should be fun and enjoyable, and he truly appreciated great athleticism, even if his daughter was on the losing side of it. He is one of the few tennis parents who applauded opponents' great points.

Monica has often said during the past few years that she is having fun and living only in the moment. I think Karolj would be the first to appreciate that.


I think a lot of people at this messageboard would benefit from taking a deep breath and saying "it's only a game" before they go out of their way to annoy upset and fight with each other.

hingis-seles
Mar 9th, 2003, 04:55 PM
Monica:"It's just a game and the game isn't me."