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GogoGirl
Feb 24th, 2003, 06:28 PM
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030224/sp_nm/wta_clijsters_father_dc_1


Clijsters' Dad Declares Boycott of Press
1 hour, 41 minutes ago Add Sports - Reuters to My Yahoo!


By Tom Miles

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Leo Clijsters, father of Kim Clijsters, said Monday he and his daughter would no longer talk to certain sections of the press after they had suffered a "defamatory campaign."



Leo, Belgium's soccer player of the year in 1988, was tight-lipped about which parts of the press he and his daughter would boycott.


"I don't want to talk about it. It's people who write stupid things and some things they make up themselves. It's our choice. We don't like what people write," he told Reuters.


Leo announced his boycott in a hand-written statement faxed to Belgian national news agency Belga and obtained by Reuters.


He complained of a campaign linked to remarks made by Patrick Dewael, president of Clijsters' home region of Flanders.


Dewael had proposed changing the laws regarding taxation to make the area more favorable to Kim, who was considering a move to Australia.


ATTRACTIVE LAW


"After the campaign over the last few days concerning Mr. Dewael's proposals about the rules for sport stars, Kim Clijsters feels that they abusively used her name and she and her entourage don't want to be at the disposal of those people any more," the statement said.


Last week, Dewael's suggestion was rejected by Belgian Finance Minister Didier Reynders, who said that while it was possible to make the law attractive to a category of people, it was not possible to do so for one person.


Leo Clijsters did not elaborate on how the coverage of Dewael's suggestion had upset him and his daughter.


"People want to sell this shit? Okay, it's not our problem," he said. "I decide who I want to talk to."


He declined to say whether he thought the boycott was affecting Kim's tennis.


Last month Leo warned that his daughter could hang up her racket within three years because of the hectic schedule of women's tennis and the pressures that she was facing.

TM
Feb 24th, 2003, 06:31 PM
GO CLIJSTERS'S DAD!

angele87
Feb 24th, 2003, 06:42 PM
I just wish Lei would shut up :mad:

TeeRexx
Feb 24th, 2003, 06:43 PM
Uh, what the hell?
Sounds like poor Kim has been adopted by Damir Dokic.
Starting a war with the vindictive members of the media can be overly distracting to Kim at a cricial time in her career.

carot
Feb 24th, 2003, 06:46 PM
YAY less kim in the press! ;)

maybe they'll notice juju then :D

Hawk
Feb 24th, 2003, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by angele87
I just wish Lei would shut up :mad:

Ditto :(

MLF
Feb 24th, 2003, 07:04 PM
Another father who likes the limelight.

He says 'we' in the article. Surely Kim is old enough now to make her own individual statements.

Iconoclast
Feb 24th, 2003, 07:12 PM
Press boycotts are typically launched by people who have made fools of themselves in public and seek to avoid a repeat.

Lei, or Leo, or whatever he likes to be called, also made some bold statements about the potential early retirement of his daughter. It did not appear as if he spoke on her behalf. This seems to be his own initiative as well.

In order to be credible, he needs to specify his criticism, not just lash out emotionally with crude comments like "shit". He is doing Kim a disservice with this type of behavior.

Also, the article seemed to suggest that he was upset about Kim being used politically by the president of Flanders, but it wasn't made very clear what that was all about.

TeeRexx
Feb 24th, 2003, 07:33 PM
If this crap continues from daddy, we will not see Kim hoist a GS title anytime soon.

Bigkimfan
Feb 24th, 2003, 07:56 PM
What would you do if you got 150 phonecalls every day!:rolleyes:

fleemke³
Feb 24th, 2003, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by carot
YAY less kim in the press! ;)

maybe they'll notice juju then :D

:cool:

Lei :rolleyes:

irma
Feb 24th, 2003, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by angele87
I just wish Lei would shut up :mad:

best post of the day :mad:

Brαm
Feb 24th, 2003, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by Bigkimfan
What would you do if you got 150 phonecalls every day!:rolleyes:


You actually believe that figure..? :rolleyes:

It's not that, because you're a fan of Kim, that you have to agree with what her dad spits into the news.

Sharapova's_Boy
Feb 24th, 2003, 08:03 PM
GO LEO! :)

Lynx
Feb 24th, 2003, 08:07 PM
:mad: I just wish most of the ppl here would shut up :mad:

Brαm
Feb 24th, 2003, 08:10 PM
Names, Lynx?

Bigkimfan
Feb 24th, 2003, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by bram_born84
You actually believe that figure..? :rolleyes:

It's not that, because you're a fan of Kim, that you have to agree with what her dad spits into the news.

:rolleyes: I just KNOW! and not from the news...:o

Cybelle Darkholme
Feb 24th, 2003, 09:04 PM
Her father can go take a flying leap off a cliff. I swear these tennis fathers need to back off and leave their daughters alone. Doesnt he have a career? She is an adult now let her grow up already!

Brαm
Feb 24th, 2003, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by Bigkimfan
:rolleyes: I just KNOW! and not from the news...:o


Oh I'm sorry! So YOU are the person who's always sitting next to the Clijsters family's phone, counting the phone calls, huh?

Riiiiiiiiight....!

caseyl45
Feb 24th, 2003, 10:34 PM
This is sad -- really it is. I would have thought, that as an athlete as accomplished as he is, that Lei Clijsters would have been the tennis parent to buck the trend of bad tennis parents, but it doesn't seem that way. I would have also thought that, as experienced as he has to have in dealing with the media, that he would be better at it than this. I guess that this shows that no matter how experienced you are, that Tennis Parent Syndrome can strike anyone.
Oh well. I guess that in the long run, Lindsay Davenport had the best way of handling tennis parents when she didn't let her parents become an issue to begin with.

Ryan
Feb 24th, 2003, 10:39 PM
Ugh, this guys sounds like a whining brat. Bring back Richard, at least he can be funny!:p;)

Gonzo Hates Me!
Feb 24th, 2003, 10:57 PM
I agree with Lynx. Haha.

Anyway, what is so annoying about what Lei said that puts him in a category with Damir?! Don't insult him like that (although I don't myself hate Damir too much anyway, but you know, they are two completely different people!) What are you all talking about!

Lei seems to be a great father. There is nothing psychotic or insanely annoying about him like other fathers.

What the hell is all this, "here is another father who wants his daughter's limelight" talk?! Hello! Lei has been there and done that. He's not finished with it even. He has been a sports hero himself in Belgium for so long. Maybe you don't know what he has accomplished then and he has already always been seen in that country. He doesn't have to resort to the antics of Damir. And he's not.

LEAVE LEI ALONE! HE ROCKS!

venusfan
Feb 24th, 2003, 11:08 PM
Where did Clijster's dad came from? All I've ever heard was that Kim Chokejsters get her legs from him... seems he's awfully a lot like Dokic..

Car Key Boi
Feb 24th, 2003, 11:30 PM
a lot of piss and moan by everyone involved

the father over what some press tards may or may not have said

and also a lot of piss and moan by some of the wtaworldtards over a tennis dad article which quite frankly is very boring and not at all sensentional

Damir rulz !!

- Car Key Boi

DutchieGirl
Feb 24th, 2003, 11:48 PM
Originally posted by venusfan
Where did Clijster's dad came from? All I've ever heard was that Kim Chokejsters get her legs from him... seems he's awfully a lot like Dokic..

Lei Clijsters was a great soccer player in Belgium!!!!

harloo
Feb 25th, 2003, 12:46 AM
Uh oh, Lei is getting caught up in the drama. First he claims Kim will retire in 3 years, and now that THEY will boycott the media. Not SHE will boycott the media. Hmm....interesting. It seems that Lei is getting more sucked in by the media circus everyday.

-Sonic-
Feb 25th, 2003, 12:55 AM
only certain sections of the media? :) wish he was more specific.

CC
Feb 25th, 2003, 01:44 AM
Wish the article was a bit more informative, coherent, interesting, nheh ...

Dawn Marie
Feb 25th, 2003, 01:50 AM
Damn Kim lost a match with Serena and Lei done lost his head. Every since that match Lei has been stating weird claims. Imho that semi-final is getting to him more so than Kim.

Jakeev
Feb 25th, 2003, 02:27 AM
Waiiiiiiiit a minute folks before you start bashing Kim's father how bout paying attention to what he is complaining about.

Many of you are quick to put him down, yet not one of you have even addressed what he is griping about.

How about addressing the issue at hand first, which none of you have done, and then make your judgements.

From what I have seen, Clijsters is not even close to being as outlandish as Richard or Damir can be.

Give the guy a break sheesh.

Hawk
Feb 25th, 2003, 04:31 AM
Originally posted by Dawn Marie
Damn Kim lost a match with Serena and Lei done lost his head. Every since that match Lei has been stating weird claims. Imho that semi-final is getting to him more so than Kim.

No this started before the Australian Open..It's just that the articles about all this stuff stay in Kim's Lounge. They don't get posted in GM.

irma
Feb 25th, 2003, 06:23 AM
oh well I probably overreact. I am just tired of fathers making quotes in the press. I had enough with my retired fav (and yeah I know Lei is probably totally different)

TeeRexx
Feb 25th, 2003, 06:47 AM
----
"Venus & Serena managed to overcome it.........why won't she "
-----

Because Kim is not SERENA or VENUS.

Jakeev
Feb 25th, 2003, 07:55 AM
Right TeeRex baby and neither is MR. Clijsters Richard WIlliams or Damir Dokic.....

gentenaire
Feb 25th, 2003, 08:35 AM
Lei is the one doing the talking because he happens to be the one dealing with the press. If Lei was to leave this up to Kim, Kim wouldn't be left alone for a second. Kim must concentrate on her tennis, Lei does the rest for her. What's so wrong with that?

I've read enough interviews with Lei to know why he's doing what he's doing. He doesn't care that people think he's a bastard, he's just protecting Kim.

gentenaire
Feb 25th, 2003, 08:39 AM
and for those who don't know Lei, he was a great football player (soccer), played for Belgium in Euro 86, the 86 World Cup and also the World Cup in 1990. He also won the Euro Cup with his team (KV Mechelen) in '88 (I believe that's now the EUFA cup).

Bigkimfan
Feb 25th, 2003, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by bram_born84
Oh I'm sorry! So YOU are the person who's always sitting next to the Clijsters family's phone, counting the phone calls, huh?

Riiiiiiiiight....!

yep:rolleyes:

Hagar
Feb 25th, 2003, 11:27 AM
Kim is huge now, known all over the world so what starts to happen in little petty Belgium? They start to be jealous and they think she earns too much money.
I think Lei is damn right about his approach to the press because a lot of individual Belgian sporters with talent and money were attacked in the press.

starr
Feb 25th, 2003, 11:49 AM
I've always admired Lei Clijsters (except that he needs to shave and comb his hair most of the time I see him), but anytime someone announces a boycott of the press, that person looks foolish.

I haven't really heard Clijsters speak that much until the subject of taxes came up late last year. I just think that it is a topic probably best not talked about in public. I don't know much of the ins and outs of the tax matter so I can't say whether he is right ir wrong. But this is why there are condos in Monaco.

I do think it is unseemly to complain about taxes in public. I know that wealth is taxed more heavily in most European countries than in the U.S., but still... you make your bed... either you lie in it or you move it somewhere else.

doloresc
Feb 25th, 2003, 12:22 PM
i'll give mr. clijsters a break because apparently he's still adapting to his daughter's fame. a bit naive though that he wasn't prepared for that.

Pinkie
Feb 25th, 2003, 12:36 PM
I don't think Lei Clijsters is the tennis father from hell. It's not like he's parading around tournaments drunk and making his daughter support a scary right-wing politician, like Damir Dokic did. Both Kim's parents instilled in her a healthy attitude towards tennis and life. Lei's problems come form being an overprotective father who really shouldn't be a media spokesperson because he is A) too emotionally involved and B) not trained in how to deal with the media. He mentions things off-hand in an interview with a Belgian newspaper and doesn't realize it mushrooms all over the world. This boycot is just an emotional reaction to bad press his daughter had gotten. I think it is incredibly dumb, but in a way you have to admire his protectiveness. He really doesn't mind being the asshole if he can protect Kim. It's just that he he is not doing the right thing because he doesn't have media training skills. He needs an objective spokesperson who will advise him on what (not) to say and who will tell him that he can't control Kim's press. She's a public figure now; coverage is out of his control.

gentenaire
Feb 25th, 2003, 12:37 PM
Starr, that's exactly it! Lei doens't want to have these tax talks in public!
After the whole tax hoopla, Lei said in an interview that he doesn't oppose to paying taxes, he realises it's only normal, he said that Kim's had lots of support in the past, that she's benefitted a lot from state funded things (schools, etc.) so that it's only fair that she pays her share now.
But Lei's a football player, he knows about the special system for football players. Apparently, football players get tax cuts, a special system has been developed for them...but only for football players, not for other top sportsmen. Lei doesn't think this is fair and has argued with the minister that this ought to change, that Kim should also be up for the same tax rate top football players get.

And Lei's clearly not happy that these discussions are being reported in the press. Money matters should remain private.

Pinkie
Feb 25th, 2003, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by Beggin' Beguine

And Lei's clearly not happy that these discussions are being reported in the press. Money matters should remain private.

Too bad he started the whole discussion himself then by saying Kim might move to Australia for tax purposes. That's my point in saying he doesn't know how to deal with the media. He brings something up the media is going to pounce on and then he gets upset the coverage starts leading a life of its own and that coverage is not to his liking. Well, that's how the media works; only people who know it very well can control it (hint: not Lei). Now this handwritten note... If he was going to boycot certain journalists, he should have done it quietly, just refuse interviews. Now, the whole discussion is about what a difficult person Lei is. Really, he asking for it.

gentenaire
Feb 25th, 2003, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by Pinkie
Too bad he started the whole discussion himself then by saying Kim might move to Australia for tax purposes.

He said no such thing. It's been said (don't know who started it) that Australia offered Kim some nice tax propositions if she would play for Australia.

The Crow
Feb 25th, 2003, 01:08 PM
What the?? Do I have to pay more taxes than those footballplayers :mad:

Josh
Feb 25th, 2003, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by Beggin' Beguine
He said no such thing. It's been said (don't know who started it) that Australia offered Kim some nice tax propositions if she would play for Australia.

It was Lei who mentioned that in an interview.

I agree with Pinkie, Lei doesn't know how to handle the media. His daughter is far more mature when it comes to giving interviews.

Pinkie
Feb 25th, 2003, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by Beggin' Beguine
He said no such thing. It's been said (don't know who started it) that Australia offered Kim some nice tax propositions if she would play for Australia.

Unfortunately, he did. Here's the thread in the Clijsters forum with quotes from Lei.

http://www.wtaworld.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47108


I'm a big Kim fan and I am not doubting Lei's motives and sometimes I even agree with him. It's just that he's a terrible spokesperson for Kim.

gentenaire
Feb 25th, 2003, 01:39 PM
But did Lei really start it all? It could be that he discussed it with people first, then it leaked to the press and only then he made those comments. I cannot imagine that Lei simply went to the press himself to announce that they're considering an Australian offer.

Pinkie
Feb 25th, 2003, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by Beggin' Beguine
But did Lei really start it all? It could be that he discussed it with people first, then it leaked to the press and only then he made those comments. I cannot imagine that Lei simply went to the press himself to announce that they're considering an Australian offer.

Nope, no leaks. He got it started all by himself. I doubt he went to a journalist saying, "have I got a bit of news for you," as it was part of a bigger interview in which he discussed other things too. But while it might have been a casual comment for Lei, it became the quote that made de headlines, got taken over by other media and ultimately hit the international wires. Who could blame the media? If true, it's a big story.

gentenaire
Feb 25th, 2003, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by Pinkie
Nope, no leaks. He got it started all by himself. I doubt he went to a journalist saying, "have I got a bit of news for you," as it was part of a bigger interview in which he discussed other things too. But while it might have been a casual comment for Lei, it became the quote that made de headlines, got taken over by other media and ultimately hit the international wires. Who could blame the media? If true, it's a big story.


That makes sense. Maybe he's not going at it the right way, but I do believe he means well. Basically he's the one fending off the annoying requests for opening a shop here, advertising this product there, etc. If those who are turned down are angry, it's at him, not at Kim.
So many people in here portray him as someone who wants to be in the spotlights himself instead of Kim, who's envious of Kim. I think that's rubbish. He means well, he's not a father from hell.

KaseyL
Feb 25th, 2003, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by Beggin' Beguine
But did Lei really start it all? It could be that he discussed it with people first, then it leaked to the press and only then he made those comments. I cannot imagine that Lei simply went to the press himself to announce that they're considering an Australian offer.

YES, he did started it. Nobody was asking him if Kim was going to become an Aussie or something alike. He and only he himself started it. And moreover, he just continued to bring it up in almost each interview since December...

Now, with the latest thing one might blame Minister-president Dewael to put extra oil on the fire, as he was telling that he'd bring the tax issue of Kim to the federal minister of Finance (see CCL for all on that please), which was pretty ridiculous as a move too (but it's election time I suppose.... even a stupid move considering the own party members who didn't manage to get enough tax reductions in Belgium during the current government).

Lei can't be blamed for Dewael's actions and words (like saying stuff like - no quote! - Belgium should do something for Kim as she was such a greatest ambassador... ), but nevertheless, announcing a press boycott for certain parts of the media... NOT wise! He isn't doing Kim a favour here. These tax issues in the media are going to portray Kim in a way she doesn't deserve rather than it would help her "cause".

I can understand Lei for trying to do his best to protect Kim's interests, and using the media for this purpose is understandable. It's more a question of HOW do you use the media, and I have frankly a question mark there, re how he is doing it for Kim.
And now, on top of all, declaring such a selective boycott is such a DON'T DO...

KaseyL
Feb 25th, 2003, 02:17 PM
And some other element in this row, to me it comes down to quite some frustration from Lei re Kim's tax situation in Belgium lately.

It's just my theory, but these are my two cents:

1) A bit ago, he mentioned that he had got a severe tax control re Kim's tax year (a full check on her company). He complained to the journalist that he got this tax control already now, although Kim's company doesn't exist that long and other companies don't get such a control so early in their existence.

I think we have to look for one of the big reasons behind all of this in this quote.

And then 2) he knows, based on own experience, that Belgian football players do have a much better tax system than all other athletes (excl. basketball players who are well-off too, taxwise).

He is 100% right that there is discrimination, yes, but than it's a matter of how do deal with this in the media.



Besides all of this, he should consider that no matter how questionable the discrimination is, most Belgians will also be very willing to pay less taxes, as we are among the highest taxed on labour in the western world. The more you talk about these money issues in the media, no matter how right you think you might be, the more you'll get reactions and it will start to live a life of its own.

I just wish he learns something from these past months and start to deal smarter with the media. You can't beat them anyway, so boycotting is simply no option and doesn't serve Kim.

irma
Feb 25th, 2003, 02:22 PM
And then 2) he knows, based on own experience, that Belgian football players do have a much better tax system than all other athletes (excl. basketball players who are well-off too, taxwise).

if that's true then he has a right to complain. why do soccerplayers are better off then the normal human beings :mad:

but on the other hand the media doesn't make the tax rules as far as I know. :p

KaseyL
Feb 25th, 2003, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by irma
And then 2) he knows, based on own experience, that Belgian football players do have a much better tax system than all other athletes (excl. basketball players who are well-off too, taxwise).

if that's true then he has a right to complain. why do soccerplayers are better off then the normal human beings :mad:

but on the other hand the media doesn't make the tax rules as far as I know. :p

it is true! see my posts in the thread when all things started with the 'Kim becoming an Aussie'- row. http://www.wtaworld.com/showthread.php?threadid=47108&perpage=40&pagenumber=2
(especially the one of Dec 6 with my remarks in blue)

That these soccer players were better off than others, is only thanks to some heavy lobbying of the football world, especially lobbywork with (former prime minister) Dehaene back then (he was at Social Affairs in those days and the minister to address).

Although this beneficial treatment might be gone in the near future, though. There are legal issues re discrimination of other non-athletes in group pension schemes who might spoil the party for the football (and basketball) world in Belgium. I even want to bet it might fall apart in the near future.

KaseyL
Feb 25th, 2003, 02:49 PM
On another note, I noticed that this thread was started by gogogirl with a :)

Well, that's the poster's good right if he/she thinks it's worth this smilie.

But then reading in this thread that people are comparing Lei to Damir, to tennis fathers from hell, to Richard and whatever... let me put a smilie here too then :rolleyes: (that's my good right, right :D)

Seriously, anyone who has been following what Lei has been doing for Kim the past years, has been reading Kim and Lei's interviews over the past years, can't even think such a thing.

Lei, in his current role as her manager and spokesperson, wants the best for Kim and doesn't give a damn about what people think of him. He doesn't want to be in the picture, nevertheless he opens his mouth when he thinks he has to act in the interest of Kim.

My only issue is that I question whether his actions are always in the best interest of her... However, no one could doubt the sincerity of his best intentions towards Kim, no one who has been following them over the years.

For that matter, for having these best intentions, I wished we would have far more tennis parents around just like him. There are too many just pushing their children to whatever dreams their parents may have (money, fame, their own unfulfilled dreams,...), regardless the children's own wishes, potential and ability to cope with the high demands of pro tennis life.

So far my rant LOL. (off my lecture chair now :p)

Lynx
Feb 25th, 2003, 05:49 PM
Joyie :) , I wasn't really "mad" - and certainly not at you. My post should have been::mad: I just wish most of the ppl here would shut up :mad: ;)
Unfortunately the wink got lost somewhere. (I was in a hurry: "Inspector Morse" was on tv and I didn't want to miss it...) It was a (minor) adaptation of angele87's:I just wish Lei would shut up :mad:
(Nothing personal, Angèle - I know why you posted this - we're on the same side, really :) )


What did I mean by it? Well, I thought that if Lei should shut up - an intelligent, well balanced, clear headed and well meaning father of 46, who has nothing to prove and who was only reacting to slander in the press, btw - if he should shut up, we at the very least should too, no?



I bow deeply to these three ladies: Mrs_Guga (who seems to be surprised to agree with me?) for saying what I would have said, but much more eloquently - thank you, Nwando.
Beggin_Beguine, for defending Lei far better than I could have done - thank you, Tine.
KaseyL, for climbing on her lecture chair again (j/k :D ) and setting everyone straight - thank you, Ingrid. :)

«... no one could doubt the sincerity of his best intentions towards Kim, no one who has been following them over the years.»

Hear, hear!

harloo
Feb 25th, 2003, 06:30 PM
I wish that Lei would be quiet and let Kim marry Lleyton and then she can move to Australia and get a better tax break. If he would not of said anything about the tax issue in the first place, then no one probably would of paid any attention to it. Now people will think Kim is some type of greedy tennis player who doesn't like to pay taxes. I agree with whoever said that business matters should be kept private.

angele87
Feb 25th, 2003, 06:38 PM
Don't worry Mark, I wasn't offended :kiss:

Ok so it's not that I don't like Lei because I do think he has good intentions but like everybody has said, his way of going about things isn't necessarily (sp) the best way to do it... He says a lot of things that I can't imagine Kim would say herself first starting with the tax thing and now with the press boycott and I don't like that Kim is being portrayed as something she isn't because of Lei's foolish comments.

Iconoclast
Feb 25th, 2003, 06:48 PM
Most parents want the best for their children, but they are as fallible as everyone else. There's no guarantee that they will deliver. Especially as they will have so much emotion invested that it sometimes clouds their vision.

Being part of the legendary Belgian World Cup squad of 1986, and that of Italy 1990, as well as winning the UEFA Cup with Mechelen, Lei is obviously a highly accomplished athlete in his own right. And I suspect he has had a lot of dealings with the Belgian press in his time as a pro footballer. Good and bad.

That doesn't make him an expert in public relations, though. And I doubt these latest comments, as well as his press boycott, will do Kim any favors. It will largely be ignored by the international media, of course, as they don't have quite as deep an interest in the Clijsters family, except for Australia perhaps. But I can assure you that portions of the Belgian press are likely not to forget. In media circles, there a few things that solicit quite as much laughter as "press boycotts". Especially when accompanied by words like "shit".

It's like painting a big red dot in your forehead and inviting everyone to target practice.

Brαm
Feb 25th, 2003, 07:18 PM
I fully agree with Angele's last post! It is NOT that I don't like Lei as a person and certainly not as a father, coz he's said to be a great father for Kim & Elke! :)