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CHOCO
Jan 25th, 2003, 03:33 PM
This is sickening and should be condemned everywhere. :fiery: Serena is supposed to playin Antwerp, Belgium Feb. 10.


http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/01/25/1042911598059.html

Radio race row over Williams sisters
January 26 2003
The Sun-Herald


A complaint of racism has been lodged with public prosecutors after a private Flemish radio station Q-Music allegedly described tennis sisters Venus and Serena Williams as monkeys.

The comments are reported to have been made after the American sisters ousted Belgian duo Justine Henin-Hardenne and Kim Clijsters in the singles semi-finals at the Australian Open on Thursday.

Belgian listener Pierre Van Doorne, who is of Martinique origin, lodged a complaint with the public prosecutor in the northern city of Antwerp, accusing the station of inciting racial hatred.

Van Doorne complained that the station's two presenters used racist terms and then allowed listeners to have their say, of which some were similarly racist against the tennis stars.

"As a coloured man, I feel personally insulted with the words of the two presenters but I also believe they incited listeners to expressions of racial hatred," Van Doorne said.

The Belgian equal opportunities centre said it had received a copy of the complaint and was considering whether to take legal action against the station.

A presenter of Belgian's top private radio station Radio Contact was fired last July for saying that Henin, who was defeated in the Wimbledon final by Serena Williams, had been beaten by a monkey.

VSFan1 aka Joshua L.
Jan 25th, 2003, 03:36 PM
Actually, Venus is playing in Antwerp.

per4ever
Jan 25th, 2003, 03:37 PM
Venus is supposed to be playing here, not Serena

TeeRexx
Jan 25th, 2003, 03:39 PM
There are a few anti blacks in just about every country it seems, but the majority of whites are not like a few select nibch of idiots idiots.

CHOCO
Jan 25th, 2003, 03:48 PM
Sorry, thanks for the correction guys. :)

kiwifan
Jan 25th, 2003, 03:49 PM
Hmmm any comments from our vocal Belgian posters?

Looking forward to the rationalizations and excuses...

Jovon
Jan 25th, 2003, 03:50 PM
Good for Pierre, I hope they fire them.

griffin
Jan 25th, 2003, 03:56 PM
Give'em hell, Pierre!

The Belgian equal opportunities centre said it had received a copy of the complaint and was considering whether to take legal action against the station.

A presenter of Belgian's top private radio station Radio Contact was fired last July for saying that Henin, who was defeated in the Wimbledon final by Serena Williams, had been beaten by a monkey.

at least from the looks of it, the @#$#$ are more likely to be punished for it than if it had happened in some parts of the US.

arn
Jan 25th, 2003, 04:00 PM
I hope they receive some sort of punishment, wether you make these comments as a joke or not.

Caz
Jan 25th, 2003, 04:06 PM
Unbelievable and very sad. :( I would hope the presenters in question will lose their jobs.

brickhousesupporter
Jan 25th, 2003, 04:06 PM
Am I the only one that sees that since they were beaten by monkeys, what does that say about Kim and Justine. Humans are supposed to be better than monkeys right??????

Hagar
Jan 25th, 2003, 04:12 PM
Such comments can simply never be a joke. There is a line and that line was crossed.
That line is also crossed by Kiwifan. Why would the Belgian fans make excuses for the behaviour of individuals? It was not the Belgians on this board who called Serena and Venus monkeys...

*JR*
Jan 25th, 2003, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by kiwifan
Hmmm any comments from our vocal Belgian posters?

Looking forward to the rationalizations and excuses... Excuses? There are morons in every society! When YOUR Pres. Lukashenko has said virtually neo-Nazi stuff, were you, MinskLynx, etc. responsible? :rolleyes:

irma
Jan 25th, 2003, 04:21 PM
I guess they are fired now?

E. Blackadder
Jan 25th, 2003, 04:25 PM
It was on the show called 'Decker & Ornelis', the ythink they have a sarcastic and humoristic morning show

CJ07
Jan 25th, 2003, 04:25 PM
:mad:

inexcusable

Halardfan
Jan 25th, 2003, 04:28 PM
They are appaling comments, its a universal problem, and a growing one...

calabar
Jan 25th, 2003, 04:32 PM
The tennis organizers in Antwerp better be careful. Surely, the must have heard of Indian Wells and the Sisters boycott. The last thing anyone wants to do is to piss off the two most INFLUENTIAL and POWERFUL tennis players on the planet. I'm not saying the folks at the tournament have anything to do with this, but they could be the big loser in all of this mess.

Ryan
Jan 25th, 2003, 04:41 PM
Thats just sad. Those people should be fired and Venus should boycott the tournament.

E. Blackadder
Jan 25th, 2003, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by Ryan15
Thats just sad. Those people should be fired and Venus should boycott the tournament.

So Venus must dissapoint a lot of her fans in Belgium, just because of some radio presentor?

per4ever
Jan 25th, 2003, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by calabar
The tennis organizers in Antwerp better be careful. Surely, the must have heard of Indian Wells and the Sisters boycott. The last thing anyone wants to do is to piss off the two most INFLUENTIAL and POWERFUL tennis players on the planet. I'm not saying the folks at the tournament have anything to do with this, but they could be the big loser in all of this mess.

Jeez..two people in Belgium make a racist remark..and you think the williams sisters would boycot Antwerp too? :rolleyes: Then they better boycot all US tourni's..oh no... ALL TOURNI's too because their are racists in every country.

Mercury Rising
Jan 25th, 2003, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by Ryan15
Thats just sad. Those people should be fired and Venus should boycott the tournament.
What the FUCK has this to do with the tournament??????????? Then you have to boycott every tournament :rolleyes:

per4ever
Jan 25th, 2003, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by Ryan15
Thats just sad. Those people should be fired and Venus should boycott the tournament.

lol according to you she really should boycott all tournaments then, since I don't know a single country which has not one racist

E. Blackadder
Jan 25th, 2003, 04:47 PM
Go ahead and call all belgians racist because of this monkey remark by one or two persons :rolleyes:

CHOCO
Jan 25th, 2003, 04:49 PM
It is unfortunate these racists comments by these DJs. However, the Belgian people should not receive any criticism for comments made by these guys.

I hope Venus takes care of plenty of bizzness at the tourney in Antwerp. :)

Nemesis
Jan 25th, 2003, 04:52 PM
I hope they cancel that show and fire those presentors. I hate it. And I loathed those two presentors even before they said those nasty things about Venus & Serena. It was during the Kim-Serena match, but they insulted Vee. Un-understandable. Vee had beaten JuJu, so what. No need to insult her for being so good.

And some other media figures make jokes at JuJu's flat chest too. But those are just too laugh, not too hurt.

Deckers & Ornelis suck!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :fiery: :fiery: :fiery: :fiery: :fiery:
In fact, the whole broadcasting company sucks (VTM, Q-Music, etc.).

GO STUDIO BRUSSEL!!!! They do not say & make such awfull things!

calabar
Jan 25th, 2003, 04:53 PM
Of course there are idiots in every country. However, I never said that Venus (or Serena) should boycott this tournament, although I feel that Indian Wells WAS justified.

CJ07
Jan 25th, 2003, 04:54 PM
ITs unfortunate, but its not Belgium's fault

brickhousesupporter
Jan 25th, 2003, 05:00 PM
I agree that it is not the fault of the Belgian posters on this board, however I also do realize that it was much more than 2 people. According to the article people were invited to call in and they made similar statements.

Mercury Rising
Jan 25th, 2003, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by Nemesis


And some other media figures make jokes at JuJu's flat chest too. But those are just too laugh, not too hurt.


I read this in P-magazine and I didn't laugh, I was very angry :mad: These jokes DO hurt. They said it was a bad thing for tennis that Henin defeated Kournikova and that Justine needs to wear a cap to know where the front is :fiery:

And I was also mad at these comments about V and S. Terrible things to say.

Blogger Dives
Jan 25th, 2003, 05:05 PM
I've heard them called a lot worse than "monkeys"... :o But never in public or by a public figure in a large public medium.
I agree an action should be taken against the radio announcers, but to condem the whole country because of two morons and have Venus pull out of Antwerp is just insane. They've pulled out of Indian Wells.. and that event hasn't folded yet, in fact set attendence highs last year. I doubt they would be that many less fans show up in Antwerp. Besides, most of them are there to support Kim and Justine. ;)

Brαm
Jan 25th, 2003, 05:06 PM
MONKEYS:
http://www.barbados.org/species/monkeys.jpg

VENUS & SERENA:
http://www.ausopen.org/images/pics/large/b_25_01_sv_williams_l.jpg


Deckers & Ornelis should get their eyes checked! And their mouth washed! :(

Bероника
Jan 25th, 2003, 05:06 PM
It's really sad

per4ever
Jan 25th, 2003, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by Blogger Dives
I doubt they would be that many less fans show up in Antwerp.

exactly...I doubt many people come to the tourni to only see Venus..most of them want to see the belgian girls

Mercury Rising
Jan 25th, 2003, 05:09 PM
Venus won't let that magnificent racket slip for something like this :D She want's it, and I can't blame her.

E. Blackadder
Jan 25th, 2003, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by bram_born84

Deckers & Ornelis should get their eyes checked! And their mouth washed! :(

with soap :wavey:

brickhousesupporter
Jan 25th, 2003, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by per4ever
exactly...I doubt many people come to the tourni to only see Venus..most of them want to see the belgian girls

The point of boycotting the tournmanet, which i dont agree upon, is not to cause ticket sales to drop. It is about not playing where you are not wanted. Not supporting something that does not support you.

irma
Jan 25th, 2003, 05:11 PM
maybe these commentators looks like pigs :o

Volcana
Jan 25th, 2003, 05:12 PM
The nice thing is, it happened in a country where it's POSSIBLE to take legal action. Sid Rosenberg of WFAN in New York City said much the same thing when he was a guest on the that station, and they responded by HIRING him.

Maybe rather than impugn Belgium for having its share of racist idiots, we ought to congratulate them for having laws against behaviour Americans are too willing to tolerate. Or we'd have laws against it too.

per4ever
Jan 25th, 2003, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by brickhousesupporter
The point of boycotting the tournmanet, which i dont agree upon, is not to cause ticket sales to drop. It is about not playing where you are not wanted. Not supporting something that does not support you.

guess you're right there..but well tennis is their profession...they shouldn't care about all that stuff and just play tennis.

Mercury Rising
Jan 25th, 2003, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by irma
maybe these commentators looks like pigs :o
Well, now you mention it, especially that Ornelis, he was the one with the comment btw.

E. Blackadder
Jan 25th, 2003, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by irma
maybe these commentators looks like pigs :o

http://www.q-music.be/graphics/wallpapers/sven_erwin_800x600.jpg

irma
Jan 25th, 2003, 05:17 PM
I knew it lol :devil: ;)

per4ever
Jan 25th, 2003, 05:21 PM
I don't want to be offensive here...imo it's just a matter of doing their job you know :) And I would consider it stupid to boycott a tournament because two players say some racist comment :)

Josh
Jan 25th, 2003, 05:45 PM
Choco, you're great! I heard about it this morning and I was looking for an article to post here but couldn't find one. Anyway, I've already sent an email to ask for their dismissal. For those of you who wanna do the same, this is the email address : deckersenornelis@q-music.be

Gonzo Hates Me!
Jan 25th, 2003, 05:50 PM
Do they EVER make fun of Kim in the Belgian media since they are so ignorant enough to make tasteless jokes about Justine?!

irma
Jan 25th, 2003, 06:00 PM
mrs_guga they said she was a loser and no champion because she is able to relativate a tennismatch very well :o

that might have been an english paper though :o

Josh
Jan 25th, 2003, 06:01 PM
Oh and this is the site of the Belgian Centre for Equal Opportunities and Opposition to Racism : http://www.antiracisme.be/

There's a link to their email address there so you can mail them as well. The more reactions they will get, the more likely they will act. :)

Infiniti2001
Jan 25th, 2003, 06:13 PM
Let's face it folks, there are ignorant people all over the world :fiery: and as offensive as their statements , I am not sure they should be fired---some other type of punishment is definitely in order though. (How about dumping them in a cage full of monkeys????) :eek:

per4ever
Jan 25th, 2003, 07:04 PM
Originally posted by Infiniti2001
Let's face it folks, there are ignorant people all over the world :fiery: and as offensive as their statements , I am not sure they should be fired---some other type of punishment is definitely in order though. (How about dumping them in a cage full of monkeys????) :eek:

I agree with this.

Btw people who don't listen to that channel shouldn't send emails, since they have nothing to do with those two people imo.
I don't send emails to get people fired in the states either because they made some sad remark.

Josh
Jan 25th, 2003, 07:08 PM
Well that's your opinion then but you shouldn't tell others what to do.

I've sent lettres around the world for Amnesty International because of human right violations. It's not because it didn't happen in Belgium that I shouldn't care.

mishar
Jan 25th, 2003, 07:18 PM
I think these are disgusting comments, and I am a big fan of the Williams Sisters, but doesn't anyone on this board believe in free speech, even the freedom to say reprehensible things?

per4ever
Jan 25th, 2003, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by mishar
I think these are disgusting comments, and I am a big fan of the Williams Sisters, but doesn't anyone on this board believe in free speech, even the freedom to say reprehensible things?

I often wonder that too...if it's those peoples opinion..isn't it their right to say it??? Even if it's this sad

per4ever
Jan 25th, 2003, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by Josh
I've sent lettres around the world for Amnesty International because of human right violations. It's not because it didn't happen in Belgium that I shouldn't care.

and in what way did these guys violate the Sisters' human rights???? I'm sorry, but I think this is really overreacting. People have insulted me much worse then this.

Dawn Marie
Jan 25th, 2003, 07:33 PM
Infiniti I disagree, I say FIRE them. Just like Trent Lott got the boot then so should these two men. Nothing is different. They were blantant with there hate and even incited hate from other people. They must pay the price.

Still waiting for IMUS from good ole USA termination.


Thanks Josh for the links.:)

Dawn Marie
Jan 25th, 2003, 07:35 PM
Per4ever these men had access to alot of ears. They were using there position and jobs as a way to incite hate.

per4ever
Jan 25th, 2003, 07:37 PM
they made a really sad remark imo..but it wasn't meant as hate. It was a cynical remark about the sisters being in the final once again...kinda remark someone would make when you are frustrated when you see your favorites lose once again. You know what I mean?

I doubt it was meant to incite hate :)

Josh
Jan 25th, 2003, 07:47 PM
All this free speech talk is BULLSHIT. People just abuse it to say the most dispicable things. Yes you have the freedom to say whatever you want, yes you are free to do whatever you want as long as you don't hurt others. Your freedom is limited by law and other people's rights. What those guys said IS a crime in Belgium because we have an anti-racism law that punishes such behaviour so they did something wrong. And let me add that I'm completely in favour of laws like that because allowing racist talk or negationism would be a slap in the face of all the people who fought against or survived these terrible things. The man who filed a complaint against the radio station clearly felt offended by those remarks and thus the law gives him the chance to express his feelings. Furthermore this is also a clear signal to society that racism is still alive and will not be tolerated.

You're welcome Dawn :)

HAIL-VENUS
Jan 25th, 2003, 07:50 PM
per4, you've got to be kidding me right? People just publicly throw these comments in the wind when they are frustrated that their fav lost a damn match? That's ridiculous. These bastards should feel the effects of their actions. They weren't concerned at all about other people's feelings when they made those statements, and then to turn around and have a damn "call in and express your hate fest" against the sisters....they should be fired simply for their lack of moral ethics. I firmly believe in suffering the consequences of your actions, and I stand behind that belief 100%, especially if racism is the motivation.

Josh
Jan 25th, 2003, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by per4ever
they made a really sad remark imo..but it wasn't meant as hate. It was a cynical remark about the sisters being in the final once again...kinda remark someone would make when you are frustrated when you see your favorites lose once again. You know what I mean?

I doubt it was meant to incite hate :)

Well they should know better, especially people who have access to such an audience. Calling two black women "monkeys" is a reference to a time frame were black people were seen as and treated like monkeys. If they wanted to be cynical they could have come up with something else, something not offensive.

irma
Jan 25th, 2003, 07:53 PM
there are rules even for journalists and the media

not insulting people is one of them

the rules of bordeaux where not made for nothing;)

1jackson2001
Jan 25th, 2003, 08:00 PM
Uh, wasn't it Venus that beat Justine at the finals of Wimbledon? Not Serena?

Mr. Man
Jan 25th, 2003, 08:08 PM
Deckers & Ornelis should get their eyes checked! And their mouth washed!

Yeah they should. Wanks! :(

maybe these commentators looks like pigs
LMAO! Probably worse. :rolleyes: muahahhhaha! :)

Car Key Boi
Jan 25th, 2003, 08:11 PM
hehe, easy Josh, don't bust a gut over this

there are far more offensive racists in the media than these two dipshits

if someone was to give yuo a list, yuo'd be spending the rest of yuor life writing e-mails

- Car Key Boi

Car Key Boi
Jan 25th, 2003, 08:13 PM
hmm, they're a pair of ugly fuckers

*CKB opens up his Photo Software*

- Car Key Boi :D

Josh
Jan 25th, 2003, 08:23 PM
Originally posted by Car Key Boi
hehe, easy Josh, don't bust a gut over this

there are far more offensive racists in the media than these two dipshits

if someone was to give yuo a list, yuo'd be spending the rest of yuor life writing e-mails

- Car Key Boi

I guess I should consider myself lucky you haven't got my email address uh? ;)

Car Key Boi
Jan 25th, 2003, 08:31 PM
ok, this is a very quick crop and merge job and it's a bit rough and very mild

i was thinking of putting them smack-bang in the middle of a black gang-bang but the pic would have been too pornographic for this forum

and if i really put the time and effort into it, i could create a pic of each of them sucking a big black dick with lip effects and everything

now THAT would be worth e-mailing to the station :D

http://carkeyboi.com/q.jpg

Nemesis
Jan 25th, 2003, 08:32 PM
Do they EVER make fun of Kim in the Belgian media since they are so ignorant enough to make tasteless jokes about Justine?!
No, they don't. Because JuJu is an easy victim for the press. Kim isn't. But that is one more reason I like JuJu: she's more special and more controversial.

I read this in P-magazine and I didn't laugh, I was very angry These jokes DO hurt. They said it was a bad thing for tennis that Henin defeated Kournikova and that Justine needs to wear a cap to know where the front is
I never read P-magazine because I'm female and my boyfriend has got me ;) It could be that they were insulting, but in cartoons and in conferances (Geert Hoste) they make fun of it in a more playfull way. Not that insulting. But I'm more of "Grrr ... How can they say/draw that!!!" than I am falling of my chair laughing.

One example is where JuJu and Kim stand opposing each other and Kim has round breasts and JuJu has like two pots of chocolate-mousse under her "Le Coq Sportif"-shirt. She makes publicy for these products on the Belgian TV. That why it isn't that insulting. But I didn't laugh with it.

Pinkie
Jan 25th, 2003, 08:42 PM
Originally posted by kiwifan
Hmmm any comments from our vocal Belgian posters?

Looking forward to the rationalizations and excuses...

I don't know if I am vocal, but I sure am Belgian (living in the US, but still Belgian) and I am disgusted. I heard about it yesterday and was so disappointed. On the one hand, Belgium is one of the most racist countries in Europe (shameful to admit, but true). On the other hand, we have very strict racism laws in the sense that it is illegal to make racist statements. If there is a tape with them saying it (jokingly or not does not make any difference), they can be in A LOT of legal problems. Last thing I heard that hadn't gotten fired yet, but if enough people complain, we should at least get that accomplished. People like that should not be on poppular radio. So sad.

Ma. Estefania
Jan 25th, 2003, 08:48 PM
The fact those men don't like Venus and Serena, doesn't allow them to insult them.

Crazy Canuck
Jan 25th, 2003, 08:50 PM
they made a really sad remark imo..but it wasn't meant as hate. It was a cynical remark about the sisters being in the final once again...kinda remark someone would make when you are frustrated when you see your favorites lose once again. You know what I mean?

I doubt it was meant to incite hate

per4ever, I can't believe how you are almost making excuses for them!

Josh already covered this, but I'm going to go over it again -

You just can NOT call a black person the name of another primate without it being racist. There is NO excuse for it, and anybody with even an ounce of common sense understands WHY it is racist.

As Josh said, it brings us back to a time where black people were actually viewed as a lower form of primate.

Allowing people who make comments like this to work for a public radio station, makes it appear as if that entire network supports racism.

THAT is why they should be fired.

Free speech is fine and dandy, but when you are making what could be considered hateful remarks on a station that is not your own, the station has never right to can them - and should.

GoGoMaggie
Jan 25th, 2003, 09:04 PM
I decided to change my pc's wall paper into their pic.

Flappie
Jan 25th, 2003, 09:05 PM
pfff commentators can say what they want as long as you dont hurt other ppl with it. And I think these commentators were wayyyy out of line! :rolleyes:

Dawn Marie
Jan 25th, 2003, 09:06 PM
Josh, just got back in the door. Again, I totally agree with your replies in here. Great post and well stated.:)

Mercury Rising
Jan 25th, 2003, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by Pinkie
On the one hand, Belgium is one of the most racist countries in Europe (shameful to admit, but true).
It is :confused: I very much doubt it.

GoGoMaggie
Jan 25th, 2003, 09:12 PM
I would be way too frightened to make such a bold remark........

CJ07
Jan 25th, 2003, 09:17 PM
I agree with Josh and them

Theres no excuse

Period

Uxobi
Jan 25th, 2003, 09:19 PM
It's outrageous that anyone would support/defend the racial insults of those two idiots. I am also shocked and amazed that the Belgian posters did not denounce the ignorance.

:rolleyes: @ those who spew racial ignorance just because their "girls" could not win a tennis match. How pathetic!

tennischick
Jan 25th, 2003, 09:48 PM
i hope the station loses its licence for this.

did they think the news wouldn't get out to the rest of the world? how stupid.

Josh
Jan 25th, 2003, 10:26 PM
Uxobi, I'm Belgian and a few other Belgians have denounced those comments as well. :)

Car Key Boi
Jan 25th, 2003, 10:36 PM
hmm, several posters are calling for the station to lose it's licence

if that does happen, i pity the poor non-racist Bellgim tards who work for that station and suddenly find themselves with the shitcan and unable to find another job, and then later on their money eventually runs out, they can't maintain the payments on their house, they lose the house, their gurl leaves them and takes the kids with her, their kids now think their dad is a bum, that's because he is a bum, he's now a drunk living on the streets begging for loose change

still, that will teach him for working for a station that employed a couple of racists

- Car Key Boi

Josh
Jan 25th, 2003, 10:39 PM
Agreed, they should just dump those two idiots.

spokenword73
Jan 25th, 2003, 10:41 PM
hopefully this convinces the people in denial who believe race is not an issue when it comes to the Williams sisters, that truly it is. WAKE UP!!! Racism is alive and well and the success of the Williams sisters brings all the haters out of the closet.

lizchris
Jan 25th, 2003, 11:48 PM
Originally posted by Rhythmboy
http://www.q-music.be/graphics/wallpapers/sven_erwin_800x600.jpg

Are thses the two fags that called Venus and Serena monkeys?

Poe
Jan 25th, 2003, 11:53 PM
this is exactly why people have to THINK before they go around wrecklessly supporting and protesting for freedom of speech.. because THESE are the kinds of people you are giving power to .. Power that they are not responsible enough for and cannot handle

if you ask for freedom of speech, it means exactly that... that anyone can say whatever they please about anything.. If there are limitiations, then what are they and who gets to decide when somebody has crossed the line? You?

there has to be censorship, and there has to be concequences for using any form of media to spread hate... whether it's your freedom to hate somebody, some thing, or not..... you should NOT have the right to speak out about it and enlist others in your beliefs if they have a negative impact on somebody else

sorry for the rant but its only because i know some of the people in here who are denouncing this with disgust are many of the same people who are first in line to fight for freedom of speech... they have no idea in the world what they're asking for

Poe
Jan 25th, 2003, 11:55 PM
Originally posted by lizchris
Are thses the two fags that called Venus and Serena monkeys?

and here's a shining example of everything i just typed

Poe
Jan 25th, 2003, 11:58 PM
word to the wise.... don't use the word fag on a website run and moderated by homosexuals

~ The Leopard ~
Jan 26th, 2003, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by CHOCO
It is unfortunate these racists comments by these DJs. However, the Belgian people should not receive any criticism for comments made by these guys.


Exactly, CHOCO.

Poe, the thing about freedom of speech is that it has to include freedom for some pretty ugly speech. If it's only freedom for "nice" speech that no one would want to prohibit anyway, it's not all that much use as a jurisprudential principle.

That said, we've been on "freedom of speech" threads before, and I've said that I am prepared to have some narrowly drafted anti-vilification laws, even though I am a free speech activist. Let's just not throw out the general principle of freedom of speech too quickly.

~ The Leopard ~
Jan 26th, 2003, 12:22 AM
Originally posted by Car Key Boi
hmm, several posters are calling for the station to lose it's licence

if that does happen, i pity the poor non-racist Bellgim tards who work for that station and suddenly find themselves with the shitcan and unable to find another job, and then later on their money eventually runs out, they can't maintain the payments on their house, they lose the house, their gurl leaves them and takes the kids with her, their kids now think their dad is a bum, that's because he is a bum, he's now a drunk living on the streets begging for loose change

still, that will teach him for working for a station that employed a couple of racists



Yes, irony noted and underlying sentiment agreed with. However, I am sure that there are racial vilification laws in Belgium which will enable some kind of complaint and for the matter to be settled with an apology by the station and some kind of small but not insignificant fine, or however it works there.

Whether the two people concerned should have their whole careers ruined by it, some kind of disciplinary action should be taken against them by their employer.

lizchris
Jan 26th, 2003, 12:34 AM
Originally posted by Poe
word to the wise.... don't use the word fag on a website run and moderated by homosexuals

If people can't take it, then they shouldn't dish it out.

~ The Leopard ~
Jan 26th, 2003, 12:37 AM
What does that mean? What homosexual here has been "dishing it out" and deserved to have a heterosexist term of abuse used on the site??

lizchris
Jan 26th, 2003, 12:47 AM
Originally posted by jouissant
What does that mean? What homosexual here has been "dishing it out" and deserved to have a heterosexist term of abuse used on the site??

I am talking about the radio hosts, not anyone on this board.

~ The Leopard ~
Jan 26th, 2003, 12:52 AM
Yes, joy, or at least not too far behind. ;)

CJ07
Jan 26th, 2003, 01:19 AM
word to the wise.... don't use the word fag on a website run and moderated by homosexuals

What?! :confused:

Dawn Marie
Jan 26th, 2003, 01:25 AM
Lizchris, why use that homophobic remark while stating disapproval over those two broadcasters? Really we should not give a damn what color, race or sexual preference one may be. It is one's SOUL that matters. That is what we all should be judged by and not the color of our skin or race or sexual preference.

Anyway I sure hope they get fired because it will send the right message for doing this wrong action. Too bad, ole USA didn't fire IMUS.

Chance
Jan 26th, 2003, 02:09 AM
what's sad is that someone is actually trying to justify these 2 jerks comments as being part of "freedom of speech".

I hope VENUS wins that beautiful trophy in Belgium :D

lizchris
Jan 26th, 2003, 02:16 AM
Originally posted by Dawn Marie
Lizchris, why use that homophobic remark while stating disapproval over those two broadcasters? Really we should not give a damn what color, race or sexual preference one may be. It is one's SOUL that matters. That is what we all should be judged by and not the color of our skin or race or sexual preference.

Anyway I sure hope they get fired because it will send the right message for doing this wrong action. Too bad, ole USA didn't fire IMUS.

Imus is a walking cadaver who is lucky that he is still in radio wit his history. You think these bozos are bad, Imus was worse 20 years ago.

CC
Jan 26th, 2003, 03:04 AM
This really hurts me.

kiwifan
Jan 26th, 2003, 03:17 AM
13 rationalizations, 0 excuses, numerous meaningful responses.

Well done WTAworld.

For those who attacked kiwifan...

...I didn't say Belgians were bad or racist (though some Belgians were honest enough to state sentiments along those lines), I just asked them for their opinion.

I said I look forward to thier rationalizations and excuses as a "pre-emptive strike" to hopefully avoid any rationalizations and excuses.

Despite the claims of numerous posters over the last year, claiming not to understand what the big deal was (one post as recently as today regarding Italy having no racism) there is racism everywhere and it should always be exposed.

I listen to much worse commentary on the radio every day, but at least there is no credible denial of racial problems here.

I don't care if anyone is punished, fired or whatever.

As long as the hate is brought "into the light" and exposed, I am happy.

Ps. Worst rationalization of the day, "it was just those two guys" (I paraphrase).

"Topaz"
Jan 26th, 2003, 03:55 AM
Originally posted by kiwifan
Ps. Worst rationalization of the day, "it was just those two guys" (I paraphrase). Yup, I have some problem with that one too. Usually, radio announcers, however outrageous, remain in the comfort zone of the majority of their audience. They know that if they falter, they lose that audience and they are out. They do express the deep feelings of more than a few. Besides, Belgium's history with Congo-become-Zaire-become-DRC hasn't been a good one during and after colonization. Congolese, one Belgian told me, were generally not too welcome in Belgium. Granted one Belgian doesn't a nation make.

So, limiting this to just two guys is a major oversight by some. Nonetheless, as Volcana indicated earlier, it's good that there are laws to combat such things and relatively easy legal mecanisms to get the process going. I see no need for a boycott here, let the laws of the land do the work.

Poe
Jan 26th, 2003, 05:19 AM
Originally posted by lizchris
If people can't take it, then they shouldn't dish it out.

maybe it flew right over your head that by using that word you're offending gay people who use this site, not the radio hosts

Poe
Jan 26th, 2003, 05:20 AM
Originally posted by mmcdonald
What?! :confused:

what part of that did you not understand?

anton
Jan 26th, 2003, 06:40 AM
thanks josh, i emailed a complaint.

Also I want to say that the BBC World News shows so many Black people living in poverty and jungles it makes me sick and I change the channel!! What's up with them? do they think all Black people are poor? I'm still waiting for them to show a Black person (other than Serena and Venus during sports or Colin Powell ) with shoes on their feet. :rolleyes:

persond
Jan 26th, 2003, 07:25 AM
:) Hey, I emailed my disgust to the "Addlies" posted. Hope there is some positive outcome, but, probably there won't be.:D :D

I hope people now see what alot of people have been saying about the racism the Sisters face day in and day out!!:angel: :angel:

Greenout
Jan 26th, 2003, 08:54 AM
I don't know how some people can defend these guys
without any real understanding of the problem of
racism?. Racism in Europe exists, and I don't see how
making jokes about tennis stars helps the situation.

I don't know how many of you follow European football
or soccer as we Americans call it; but racism against
Black footballers is a huge issue. The national squad
from England had Fifa/Uefa investigate the problems
in last year's Slovakia vs England Euro 2004 qualifying
match because of the racial abuse that players like
Ashley Cole, Sol Campbell, and Emile Heskey were
getting. Some Slovakian supporters were doing
"monkey" howls at them. There's a couple of Black
players in German football; but it was only a couple of
years ago when some people threw banana peels
at them. It's a problem in Italy too- Black players get
animal grunts shouted at them; not to mention the
white supremacy chants every now and again from
radical rightwing; hooligans.

Alot of Black European players like France's Thierry
Henry hate playing in certain countries like Greece,
Turkey, Poland, Italy, etc... it's there. Taking that same
attitude into a sport like tennis is not something we need.

Dawn Marie
Jan 26th, 2003, 09:08 AM
Kiwifan and Greenout excellent post!

Damn two women made history and people have to hate. If people would only bask in this wonderful reality they would realize that they are lucky to be alive while it is all going on around them. Do you know how much I would love to have been around when Althea won her first slam? I mean just historic things period. I am thankful that I am able to be here during this time. It's even better when my two favorites are doing it though. I mean look at what Martina N. is doing? Man this is history and people really should just bask in the tennis. Man, Serena won 4 slams in a row and quite frankly I still cant believe it happened? LIKE WOW!:):)

gentenaire
Jan 26th, 2003, 09:18 AM
I've always felt these two are annoying! Those comments were way out of line.

Stromile, I do think you are exaggerating things. I see no hatred between Flemish people and Walloons. The whole division is more political and economical IMO. The reason why there aren't that many friendships is very simply: language. Where did I meet my friends? At school/Uni and here online. School and Uni were in Dutch so all my school and uni friends are Flemish. It's got nothing to do with not liking Walloons.

A lot of the Flemish posters here are Henin fans. We've always been annoyed at how the media makes the destinction, I don't get the feeling the Belgian people do. At the exhibition match in Charleroi I could hear Flemish people cheering for Justine and Walloons cheering on Kim.

That said, Antwerp is probably the most racist city in the country.

BasicTennis
Jan 26th, 2003, 09:25 AM
Thank goodness I know Kim Clijsters otherwise I wouldn't know what to think about Belgian people.:o

gentenaire
Jan 26th, 2003, 10:43 AM
I would also like to add that in general we make fun of a lot of things, things you couldn't make fun of in other countries i.e. religion, the pope, etc.

Still, those ape comments are unacceptable and I will also send them an e-mail.

NaturalBlues
Jan 26th, 2003, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by BasicTennis
Thank goodness I know Kim Clijsters otherwise I wouldn't know what to think about Belgian people.:o

Please we're not all like that. It was a stupid comment by two stupid presenters (the belgians in here know that deckers and ornelis are not exactly very popular)..

I also like to add that the word they said, 'bosapen', indeed partly means 'monkey' but it has not the same connotation to it.
It's more a humorous way to insult people (a bit hard to explain).

still they shouldn't have said it. i'm going to antwerp and looking forward to see venus play! :D

2ace2
Jan 26th, 2003, 12:39 PM
I hope they get fired too! I always thought the VTM and it's radio stations like Q-Music were of lesser quality :rolleyes: This proves how stupid they are. A shame for Belgium!

Aloysius
Jan 26th, 2003, 12:46 PM
A complaint is not enough. Some heads need to roll for this. How unbelievably insensitive and unkind. Fuck the lot of 'em!

martinailuv
Jan 26th, 2003, 01:02 PM
i just sent off an e-mail as well. thank you choco and josh for all the information.

i had a question about intent. i think i have a good sense of humour and i really don't mind if someone has a laugh at my expense cos i enjoy taking the piss out of other as well. taking that into consideration are there jokes that one can make that can 'nicely' slag those of a certain nationality, religion or sexual preference? for example saying that the english has poor dentistry or the irish are fond of the drink? is that offensive? should a radio personality be alowed to say such things? poe you brought up homosexuals. would you take offence if a radio personality said 'some clothing designers are homosexuals. why is anyone surprised?' does anyone think that's offensive?

thanks again. :)

Experimentee
Jan 26th, 2003, 01:07 PM
This is disgusting. I have already sent an email calling for them to be fired. Its unacceptable to spread hatred like this on national radio.

fleemke³
Jan 26th, 2003, 01:14 PM
Just my quick opinion on this case.
1. They shouldn't do such things
2. BUT image the situation ... you're a tennisfan and see that you're favo (or maybe 2 :rolleyes: ) both losing to the Williams-siters. Well Kim her lost was very hard to some fans ans when you're dissappointed you say things you don't mean. It' s human. Ok thay are on the radio so they must be very carefull!
3. I know D&O from radio Donna and they are just jokers with a lot of sarcasm.

Conclusion: They appologized on the radio, told it was said in 'the heat of the moment' ... It was worng, no doubt about it but please don't enlarge the problem and don't reflect it on all Belgians :eek:

Shuji Shuriken
Jan 26th, 2003, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by fleemke²
Just my quick opinion on this case.
1. They shouldn't do such things
2. BUT image the situation ... you're a tennisfan and see that you're favo (or maybe 2 :rolleyes: ) both losing to the Williams-siters. Well Kim her lost was very hard to some fans ans when you're dissappointed you say things you don't mean. It' s human. Ok thay are on the radio so they must be very carefull!
3. I know D&O from radio Donna and they are just jokers with a lot of sarcasm.

Conclusion: They appologized on the radio, told it was said in 'the heat of the moment' ... It was worng, no doubt about it but please don't enlarge the problem and don't reflect it on all Belgians :eek:

:confused: :confused: ...fleemke...that comment made by those two fools was sad and pathetic, and apology or not, they should be fired. Are you saying it is okay to make in the heat of the moment racist comments on air, with thosands of people listening, some of whom could be black and be offended by those comments, as long as your fave loses a tough match? They are supposed to be journalists, and keep their racist and biased views for private discussion. That is called professionalism. Everyone has a right of freedom of speech, but you can't use that right to defile someone else by making statements like those. And I would be a fool to think that all Belgians are like that, but there is no justification in this world for those two saying what they did. None whatsoever :mad: :mad:. Comparing two beautiful, black tennis stars to monkeys, how can that not be seen as acist and offensive. If people are allowed to say things like these on air, and justify them by saying that their fave lost, then the world is truly in a sad state.

Josh
Jan 26th, 2003, 01:35 PM
If they can't control themselves in the heat of the moment then they shouldn't do any commentating on the radio at all IMO. I don't think Deckers and Ornelis are racists because of their comments but it was a clear illustration of how many people still think about black people, it's apparently not really a big deal to compare two people who are not white to monkeys. Just imagine if Kim and Justine would have lost to Lindsay and Monica, I'm sure they wouldn't have called those two "bosapen".

fleemke³
Jan 26th, 2003, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by bonkers186
:confused: :confused: ...fleemke...that comment made by those two fools was sad and pathetic, and apology or not, they should be fired. Are you saying it is okay to make in the heat of the moment racist comments on air, with thosands of people listening, some of whom could be black and be offended by those comments, as long as your fave loses a tough match? They are supposed to be journalists, and keep their racist and biased views for private discussion. That is called professionalism. Everyone has a right of freedom of speech, but you can't use that right to defile someone else by making statements like those. And I would be a fool to think that all Belgians are like that, but there is no justification in this world for those two saying what they did. None whatsoever :mad: :mad:. Comparing two beautiful, black tennis stars to monkeys, how can that not be seen as acist and offensive. If people are allowed to say things like these on air, and justify them by saying that their fave lost, then the world is truly in a sad state.

I did not say it was alright he bonkers :eek: I was just saying that it's human to say things in the heat of the moment ... You're not going to tell me that Lindsfans weren't pissed off after losing to Justine and that they didn't say mean things about the belgian girl, or at the moment Kim was beating Serena in LA ... As a radiomaker you have some responsibillities that's for sure but I really don' think that it was meant to hurt anybody! And if everybody needed to get fired after making 1 mistake :eek: (don't shoot if they did another mistake once :rolleyes: ) And i'm sure that everybody who is a big fan of a player says nasty things about the opponent if he/she is winning ... those were stupid to do this on the radio!

btw what's wrong with monkey's? I like those animals ....

2ace2
Jan 26th, 2003, 03:07 PM
Fleemke, what they said is just wrong, no excuses!

fleemke³
Jan 26th, 2003, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by 2ace2
Fleemke, what they said is just wrong, no excuses!
you're probably an :angel: that NEVER won't do anything wrong :rolleys: and didn't cursed anybody who defeated you're favo!

AGAIN (and this is the last time!) it was wrong but please don't make it seem even more worse plz :eek: and it was, in my eyes, NO racism ... just a bad expression 'in the heat of the moment'

Are all the people who laugh with handicapted people, bad people?

2ace2
Jan 26th, 2003, 03:43 PM
Hey, I would never say anything racist. Not even 'in the heat of the moment'. And Kim is my fave, but Serena was just the best, end of story. It didn't riun my day and I haven't said anything bad about Serena. And if you said something racist about Serena, when she beat Kim, I wouldn't be too proud of myself.

fleemke³
Jan 26th, 2003, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by 2ace2
Hey, I would never say anything racist. Not even 'in the heat of the moment'. And Kim is my fave, but Serena was just the best, end of story. It didn't riun my day and I haven't said anything bad about Serena. And if you said something racist about Serena, when she beat Kim, I wouldn't be too proud of myself.

It wasn't racism :rolleyes:

and ok .. you're to good to be true probably! Well I admit ... I've sas some bad things to many of my 'oponents' but i'm not a racist, do not hate people and 10 minuts after the 'inciden' i got back respect for those people .. well ... probably I'm a very bad person :devil: :rolleyes:

anton
Jan 26th, 2003, 03:54 PM
flemkee, read up on what happened to Trent Lott in the USA and this story is similar. these two need to be punished in some way. Maybe they meant no harm but this type of statement is unacceptable.

fleemke³
Jan 26th, 2003, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by anton
flemkee, read up on what happened to Trent Lott in the USA and this story is similar. these two need to be punished in some way. Maybe they meant no harm but this type of statement is unacceptable.

wow i didn't say that they don't need some kind of punishment!!! they have to take their responsibility but losing their job because of it ... a little bit to much I think.

anton
Jan 26th, 2003, 04:05 PM
by the way how did you get that little 2 abouve your name?

fleemke³
Jan 26th, 2003, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by anton
by the way how did you get that little 2 abouve your name?

euhm .. pressed on a button on my keybord :D mmm last see .. it's azerty and it's the button above the 'tab', under escape ;)

lizchris
Jan 26th, 2003, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by Poe
maybe it flew right over your head that by using that word you're offending gay people who use this site, not the radio hosts

I didn' mean to offend anyone on this board and if I did, I am sorry, but I am sick and tired of whites resorting to this type of shit any time a black person suceeds at something they think only white people should suceed at.

per4ever
Jan 26th, 2003, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by fleemke²
It wasn't racism :rolleyes:

and ok .. you're to good to be true probably! Well I admit ... I've sas some bad things to many of my 'oponents' but i'm not a racist, do not hate people and 10 minuts after the 'inciden' i got back respect for those people .. well ... probably I'm a very bad person :devil: :rolleyes:

and I fully agree with Fleemke's posts here..it's exactly the same thing as what I said.

Volcana
Jan 26th, 2003, 05:31 PM
fleemke² - What's TRULY in your heart, is what comes out at 'the heat of the moment'.

Lynx
Jan 26th, 2003, 06:00 PM
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

I never listen to Q-radio and I barely know those two - but if what I heard of them is true I think they're trying very hard to be funny. So I don't rightly know how to evaluate this. A lot depends on the context, imo. Judging without knowing the context is a dangerous thing; it leads to mob-justice, not real justice.

Now IF it was meant as a racist remark, inciting racism, then those two should be punished - and they WILL be, rest assured: we have laws for that. Let that be clear.


There is a big chance that they were only trying to be funny, though.
How? Thus:

Suppose - just for the sake of it - that Kim and Justine would have been beaten by two German girls. I could imagine those two commentators complaining about the fact that our girls were taken out by "moffen" (that's a kind of derogatory name for Germans, they were called that in the first World War, if I'm not mistaken - kinda like saying "Sauerkrauts".)
It's not tasteful but... would anyone on the board here even know about it? I don't think so. It might have pissed off a few Germans (if they ever got to hear about it!), but that would be it.

Suppose they were beaten by two Asian girls. Again, I could imagine a commentary of those two would-be comedians about those "slit-eyes". Not very classy but... I don't think wtaworl would dedicate a thread to it.
I once heard this Taiwanese girl tell a joke:
- "Do you know why all Chinese have slit-eyes?"
- "No, why?"
- "Because they all eat rice, and that gives them constipation, and so they have to push much harder..."
Hmm, you should have seen her tell it - but I hope you get the picture.

Suppose they were beaten by two Dutch girls. Hello, Dutch ppl - I think you probably know what those two commentators would have said THEN, don't you?
Not very polite, but I don't think one Dutch person would lose sleep over it. He/she would just laugh. (If the roles were reversed, I can imagine what they would say about us Belgians...)

Should two Asian girls have been beaten by two Caucasian girls, maybe two "funny" commentators there would have said something about big noses?


My points? there is a big difference between making (tasteless) jokes about groups of people and inciting racist actions.
American ppl have no idea how much more relaxed this kind of thing is in Europe... where Black people are concerned. The same jokes about Islamic people now... THOSE would immediately be considered by every Belgian as racist and inciting racism - precisely because there is a lot of tension in Belgium today between Belgians and Turkish and North-African immigrants (who are almost all Islamic). There is, however, no tension between Black people and Belgians. (Maybe only because there are not much Black ppl in Belgium, that's possible... but that doesn't make it less true.)
as long as you cannot laugh with the little nicknames ppl give you, you still have a lot of growing-up to do. (This might not be considered just "a little nickname" in America; and it might not have been meant like one... but I rather suspect it was.)


--------------------------------------
Hello, Kiwifan. I bet you think this a rationalisation. Not so.

It certainly is not an excuse. Who exactly should offer excuses? The Belgians of this board? That includes me: an anti-racist in marrow and bone (I will die for you if you ever get attacked by white racists). I don't feel I owe anybody an apology. Will you apologize to all the women of the world if another male again rapes a defenseless woman somewhere?

I am a person. For the things I do and say, I will take full responsibility. However, for the things others do and say, I will not. Even if they happen to be white (like I am), male (like I am), or Flemish (like I am). I am not my group.
If I were to blame for everything the group I belong to says or does, then the same would go for you and everybody else.
In which case we should ALL be in jail.

Josh
Jan 26th, 2003, 07:25 PM
See that's exactly why comments like that should not be tolerated. They are a perfect example of how many people still view those with a different skin colour. Apparently if you wanna be funny or cynical or whatever just call a black person a monkey. "How is that racist? What's wrong with calling a black person a monkey 'in the heat of the moment'?" I'm sorry but to me this is unacceptable, I can understand that you would be mad at a player for beating your favourite but when you make a reference to skin colour you're being racist because clearly you felt the need to differentiate yourself from the person with a different skin colour, making of the skin colour the subject of insults. To me that's racism.

The fact that some people seem to wanna minimalise this, indicates that society still allows racial stereotyping.

Lynx your example of Germans being called "moffen" is different. The Germans were given that nickname because they started two world wars causing much suffering to millions of people. While I agree that it shouldn't be used today, you can't compare it to what happened to millions of black people. They did nothing wrong, yet they were sold as slaves and treated like animals. So to refer to them as monkeys shows either extreme ignorance or extreme racism.
I find it rather appalling that you think "monkeys" is just a nickname foe millions of people.

fleemke³
Jan 26th, 2003, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by Volcana
fleemke² - What's TRULY in your heart, is what comes out at 'the heat of the moment'.

ok if that's true ... i hate Venus, Kim, Serena, Linds, Monica, ... and all they're fans too :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


Wow al those 'perfect' people on this board .. people who don't say/do/think anything wrong in theu're live wow ... BORING :rolleyes:

2ace2
Jan 26th, 2003, 07:59 PM
I don't understand how anyone can say that this isn't a racist remark, it's sooo obvious. And I agree with Volcana, what's in your heart comes out at the heat of the moment!

STROMILE
Jan 26th, 2003, 08:09 PM
Living in fear because of one's skin color would appear to be the dirty little secret of a quiet country best known for chocolates, diamonds and the EU's headquarters. Except this is no secret.

Belgium is home to the most racist people in Europe, tops among a 15-nation populace of 370 million who are increasingly tense over joblessness and immigration, according to a EU poll.

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/4834/eurorace.htm

kiwifan
Jan 26th, 2003, 08:09 PM
Yes Lynx that was a massive rationalization bordering on excuse.:p :p :p

Had the morons used whatever is the Belgian dispariging term for Americans which is what the Williams Sisters are. Then your analogies to Germans, etc. would be fair.

"Those friggin Yankee Bitches beat our girls", would be rude but a heat of the moment emotional outburst that would be predictable and not worthy of outrage.

Monkeys?

Give me a fucking break, that is racist and there is nothing cute about it.

I will joke with my European friends regarding nationalities (by the way the Belgian stereotypes aren't very funny - the Germans think you are all fat and lazy merchant types - the humor is lost on me; then again the Germans think most other Europeans are lazy, stupid, weak-willed cowards, etc.)

I don't think Belguim rates in significance to get the quality of insults that the Germans have for the Dutch, French, English and of course the Yanks.:p :p :p

Nationality jokes still recognize the humanity of the object of the humor. Take a moment to grasp that distinction, "humanity of the object of the joke".

The French aren't disparaged as Frogs because they are thought to resemble frogs to those who hate the French; but that is why monkeys and bananas etc. come up when anger/ resentment/ "bad jokes" are directed at Black People.

Not funny, not acceptable but as I have said before; I don't care what happens to them. I give as good as I get and hear worse on the radio everyday.

Racism is a fact of life.

As long as ignorance and racism is exposed I am happy.

Now you being so defensive...:p :p :p

Shuji Shuriken
Jan 26th, 2003, 08:13 PM
Some of you are trying way too hard to justify what was said by those two, when it was quite obvious what their intentions were. If they are allowed to say these sort of things as a joke, what next? When someone makes a MISTAKE as significant as this, you don't give them the oppertunity to make it again. Too much is at stake. And a coment of that nature? Come on...that's just sad.

Volcana
Jan 26th, 2003, 08:14 PM
Lynx - I don't buy your point. Terrorism ran rampant in the United States not because we had terrorists like the KKK and White Citixen councils. It ran rampant because EVERYONE ELSE was 'understanding'. 'monkeys', 'slit-eyes', it all comes down to saying 'those people are less human than us, so it's okay to say and do things to them we wouldn't do to people we respected'.

What they are is gutless cowards, made worse by running away and hiding behind crap like 'heat of the moment.

I'll tell you what that 'joke' means to me. It menas that if the lynch mob comes to kill me, those two will sit by and do nothing. Like so many Americans did for so long. They'd just let rape, murder, torture go on, all becasue they person's skin color wasn't close enough to their's. That's what their brand of 'humor' says to me. And they know that, or the apology wouldn't have come so fast. They want to call it a joke, let them. It just makes them liars on top of being bigots and cowards.

What's in your heart is what comes out in the heat of the moment.

I had a (not surprisingly) rather volcanic temper. I say things 'in the heat of the moment' too. And yet I NEVER call people names like, '******', 'honky', 'white trash', 'slant', '******', etc. Because hatred for those people is not lurking in my heart, waiting to come out.

What's in your heart is what comes out in the heat of the moment.

fleemke³
Jan 26th, 2003, 08:18 PM
Everybody is saying things here .. but does anybody heard it so he/she can put the words in the right context???????

2ace2
Jan 26th, 2003, 08:20 PM
Context doesn't matter here, that one word said enough. When you call someone a "monkey" it's quite obvious how it's meant. I think this is a very sick joke!

fleemke³
Jan 26th, 2003, 08:44 PM
hey 2ace you're a monkey :rolleyes:

Well if you guys wonna make such a big deal of it ... go ahead! There are much more and WORSE things that people can say and do and I really don't believe that you guys are all angels and never do anyting wrong :rolleyes:

the end ...

Lynx
Jan 26th, 2003, 08:52 PM
Josh, Kiwifan - hi. :)

I see you both refer to my "German" example, not to my "Asian" one. Aha. That's a tougher one, isn't it? No nationality thing there. Not something they did wrong, either. Didn't you like the little joke this Taiwanese girl made? I laughed. She laughed. I didn't make her up, you know. Was it a racist joke? Or was it NOT a racist joke because Asians were not sold as slaves the last few centuries? (But some probably were, though.) Or was it not a racist joke because she HERSELF made it?

"As long as you cannot laugh with the little nicknames ppl give you, you still have a lot of growing-up to do."
I'll admit I have a lot of growing up to do in that departement; I'm not always prepared to laugh at myself.

Sometimes (often?) those nicknames are nasty, and meant to be nasty.

If you let them see that those names hurt you, however, they will stick. That's how humans are. We're a sad, nasty and cruel lot, at the best. "Aha, black ppl react when we call them monkeys? Good to know!"

Was it a racist thing to say? Yes, if it targetted the race of the Williams'... but did it? ONLY IF YOU AGREE IN YOUR HART THAT BLACK PEOPLE ARE LIKE MONKEYS. I don't think so. You shouldn't. You should laugh and shrug. Maybe you should make an honorific of it (like the Geuzen).

Was it meant to hurt/incite racism? What do you think? Give me an honest answer - do you think it was meant to hurt black ppl, or to incite racism?

If not - what are we talking about?

-----------------------------------------------

Heyo - just saw Volcana's post. Damn, I did not see one post of you yet that I did not agree with.

I'll have to reconsider.

Would those two sit by and do nothing if a mob came for you? I honestly don't know.
Maybe they would at that. Ok, fire the bastards.

"it all comes down to saying 'those people are less human than us, so it's okay to say and do things to them we wouldn't do to people we respected' "

That is obviously true. I apologize - I did not think clearly.

Mags
Jan 26th, 2003, 08:55 PM
QUOTE]Originally posted by Lynx

American ppl have no idea how much more relaxed this kind of thing is in Europe... where Black people are concerned.[/QUOTE]

Lynx - you may be relaxed about comparing/calling black people to a monkey in playfull jest, but I can assure you that this black person is not relaxed about it and I suspect I would be hard pushed to find many black people who are relaxed about it.

anton
Jan 26th, 2003, 09:08 PM
It's getting :fiery: hot :fiery: in here! Where is that pic of Jennifer and Iva taking their clothes off?

Also flemkee2 "~" is where you said not a little "2".

What was I going to say!? I forgot! :confused:

Oh I just remembered :wavey:

This reminds me of the book The Great Gatsby which is required high school reading even though the main 2 couples cheat on each other and there is a lot of adult situations. Anyway Tom who is super rich and his wife Daisy talk about the Nordic race and some book about the "coloreds" and "you have to beat them down." Later tom says when mad some thing like "before you know it we'll throw everything over and you'll have intermarriage between race." fitzgerald wrote a great story overall and but this anti-Black stuff is like an imperfection to an otherwise breathtaking book. the movie is not bad either.

kiwifan
Jan 26th, 2003, 09:24 PM
Lynx I ignored the Asian remark because it was blantantly racist and just as indefensible as the monkey comment.

Even coming from a Thai person. While an Asian making that comment is self deprecating, if you had made the comment it would have been a very wrong thing. Even if it was funny.

I was trying to let it slide, but appearantly you thought you'd made a "good point".

I could walk into a bar full of strangers in Australia and make Aussie jokes (they hate Crockodile Dundee references in general) but would not walk into a bar in Hong Kong and say, "You know why your eyes are like that..."

Please tell me you "get it".

If not, I give up.

Lynx
Jan 26th, 2003, 09:30 PM
Hey Kiwifan, you edited your post, didn't see that when I posted mine.

"Who said Belgians owe me an apology"? Well - I thought you did! I looked up your first post again, and I see now I didn't understand what you meant. You wrote:
"Looking forward to the rationalizations and excuses."
I thought you meant "excuses" as in "apologies". I get your meaning now.

But if you think I was rationalizing or excusing, then you don't know me (and of course you don't). Rather trying to "understand", because although I know ppl stink, I still believe somehow they all mean well.


Aye - you posted a new message already. I'll have to think about that; I'll get back to you.

--------------------------------

Hi Joy. :)

I wish I could talk to you in my own language, instead of having to look up every other word to try to be sure of the meaning - it's annoying. :(

As for what I said in here, although I'm still backing up a lot of it, I'll repeat to you what I said to Volcana.

"it all comes down to saying 'those people are less human than us, so it's okay to say and do things to them we wouldn't do to people we respected' "

That is obviously true. I apologize - I did not think clearly.

Poe
Jan 26th, 2003, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by martinailuv
poe you brought up homosexuals. would you take offence if a radio personality said 'some clothing designers are homosexuals. why is anyone surprised?' does anyone think that's offensive?

thanks again. :)


i can take a good gay joke as well as the next guy.... my friends and even my family joke about how some of us act and stuff like that... my mother even called me a bitch once .... it's when people use words like "fag" to try and seriously insult somebody... as if it is insulting to be gay... some lower form of life.. that's what gets my blood boiling... the word fag in particular is one that i cannot stand... it is just as bad to me as racial slurs like n***** and people who use words like that always get a piece of my mind ;) to me there is NO acceptable context for them...

anton
Jan 26th, 2003, 09:46 PM
this is a serious question. people in England refer to cigarettes as a f word dont they?

kiwifan
Jan 26th, 2003, 09:49 PM
It's superbowl time, y'all.

Please don't take any non-responses from this point forward as anything other than Kiwifan watching football with his buddies.

Lynx, as always we will eventually agree to disagree and live happily ever after.

I hope the trend continues.

You still need to work on your taste in tennis players.

Come on, jump on the bandwagon.

History is being made by the Beatles of tennis and you're hanging out with Herman's Hermits instead.

"Day after day, alone on a hill..."

My official exit quote.

Mags
Jan 26th, 2003, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by anton
this is a serious question. people in England refer to cigarettes as a f word dont they?

Yep Anton...the word fag is a slang term for cigarette in England. I would say " I am dieing for a fag" or " I am going outside for a fag" meaning dieing for/going outside for a cigarette.

However if I were to call an individual a fag - I take it to be knowingly insulting them. Otherwise, saying "you are a ***** fag" would have to translate into "you are an ***** cigarette" which doesn't make any sense - at least to me anyway!.

Yes the term 'fag' relates to cigarettes also, but people(majority as I won't speak for all) in England know the difference!.


:wavey:

anton
Jan 26th, 2003, 10:24 PM
ok thanks! :wavey:

Lynx
Jan 26th, 2003, 11:12 PM
Kiwifan, if you ever read this:

1) Enjoy the game. :)

2) no, the Asian joke was not blatantly racist. This Taiwanese (Chinese from Taiwan) girl was one of the most secure persons I've ever known - she was not, believe me, being self-depreciating. To be able to laugh with yourself is not necessarily self-depreciating, it may be the key to self-liberation.

That was part of the point I was trying to make, when Volcana threw me off the track and made me reconsider some of the things I said. I'm still not back on track yet.

3) my taste in tennisplayers is fine, thank you. Hey - I like Venus, so I'm already on the bandwagon. (I don't get to see her as much as Kim, though, because the Belgian tv is not interested in tennis if there are no Belgians playing. :rolleyes: ) Backing the numbers 2 and 3 of the world is not too bad, I would think.


"Lynx, as always we will eventually agree to disagree and live happily ever after.
I hope the trend continues."

One of these days you're gonna have to agree with me, buddy. :p
(And then you'll be sorry you didn't jump on my bandwagon.)

Dawn Marie
Jan 26th, 2003, 11:32 PM
Lynx, you need to check yourself before you wreck yourself. Your post in here are stereotypical of people and I find you to be a racist.

Get a grip and go read up on some history and culture. You come off as extremely ignorant and without much knowlege in this discussion thread.

that is all:)

DutchieGirl
Jan 27th, 2003, 12:34 AM
Originally posted by lizchris
Are thses the two fags that called Venus and Serena monkeys?

oh, so because they called Venus a monkey, it's OK for you to start gay bashing is it? Two wrongs don't make a right!

DutchieGirl
Jan 27th, 2003, 12:38 AM
Originally posted by lizchris
If people can't take it, then they shouldn't dish it out.

excuse me? Where in this thread did any homosexuals say V or S are monkeys? Are you really that stupid to not see what you did?

DutchieGirl
Jan 27th, 2003, 12:46 AM
Originally posted by lizchris
I didn' mean to offend anyone on this board and if I did, I am sorry, but I am sick and tired of whites resorting to this type of shit any time a black person suceeds at something they think only white people should suceed at.

uh huh... and so let's take it out on the "fags" hey? Coz no black people are "fags" are they?

theultimateone
Jan 27th, 2003, 12:51 AM
Isn't it curious that it took CHOCO to reveal what these idiots Decker and Ornelis said about Venus and/or Serena.

There are MANY Belgians on this board, yet NONE were honest enough to reveal what actually occurred after Kim and Serena's match (with the exception of JOSH who was looking for article to post). Some of these same individuals will claim emphatically that there is no racism in Belgium or elsewhere; however, knowing that they HEAR these comments often and some if not most PARTICIPATE in same.

I certainly believe Pinkie when she says that this is one of the more racists countries in Europe. These individuals, Decker and Ornelis, would not have made such comments if they had felt there was little to no support for such comments.

Lynx
Jan 27th, 2003, 12:51 AM
Oh dear. This had to happen one day, I suppose.

Dawn, I have seen other posts from you, and frankly it doesn't surprise me to see this one. You seem to have only one tune. I never reacted to your posts before because of that, knowing that nothing constructive could ever come from it.

Don't worry, dear: I'm pretty sure I have read a lot more than you ever did. I certainly know more about Belgium and the situation here than you do. I may know more about almost anything, come to that.

Have you even read my posts in here? Do you know what they're about? I seriously doubt it. And if you read them - have you understood them, or tried to?

As for being a racist: olé olé. Like for Kiwifan, I'd die for you if you'd ever be attacked by real ones. Because I happen to loath anything discriminatory. But in your case I probably wouldn't be too happy about it - because it is my conviction that you, alas, are a racist too. One of the worst kind: the ones that hide behind a skincolor, and think that anything then is permitted.

You mustn't accuse people of being racist because their opinions are more educated and thought-through than your's, dear. That's not very clever. If you want to impress me, try writing a Volcana-post, instead of an abusing one.

Debating is done with arguments, Dawn. Not with namecalling - that usually only succeeds in the opposite.

THAT is all. :)

Car Key Boi
Jan 27th, 2003, 12:57 AM
hmm, i confess i use the 'fag' word sometimes

but get this, so do the gay bois who i personally know

i'm not a gay basher, far from it, it's just that i'm a total non-PC asshole, and the same can be said for my gay buddies

in fact, and this is god's fucking troof, a few months ago my buddy Hair Color Boi (who's gay) hacked into an extreme racist/homophobic website and yuo'll love this, he deleted their entire front page and replaced it with just the words YUO=FAG :D

true story folks, i wish i could make up stuff like that

- Car Key Boi

DutchieGirl
Jan 27th, 2003, 12:58 AM
Originally posted by anton
this is a serious question. people in England refer to cigarettes as a f word dont they?

yes, in some countries, ciggies are called "fags"... even in Australia still sometimes. my boss always says he's "going out for a fag"... and so I always ask him "which boy do you have out the back?" I really don't like how my boss says it, but I just make a joke of it. (Besides, he doesn't know about my sexuality, so he's not doing it to be mean, but it still does hurt)...hence these two radio idiots are wrong, because even if they were saying it as a joke, it would still hurt to be called a monkey! (OK, V & S might not have heard it, but that doesn't make it OK for them to say that).

DutchieGirl
Jan 27th, 2003, 01:04 AM
Originally posted by theultimateone
Isn't it curious that it took CHOCO to reveal what these idiots Decker and Ornelis said about Venus and/or Serena.

There are MANY Belgians on this board, yet NONE were honest enough to reveal what actually occurred after Kim and Serena's match (with the exception of JOSH who was looking for article to post). Some of these same individuals will claim emphatically that there is no racism in Belgium or elsewhere; however, knowing that they HEAR these comments often and some if not most PARTICIPATE in same.

I certainly believe Pinkie when she says that this is one of the more racists countries in Europe. These individuals, Decker and Ornelis, would not have made such comments if they had felt there was little to no support for such comments.

ehh Josh is Belgian and he THANKED Choco for posting the thread and said he'd been looking for a link to the article himself! :rolleyes:

Besides, lots of Belgian posters said they didn't like those two presenters anyway, so wouldn't listen to their show...I wouldn't know everything that's said on every radio show here! Amd if I don't work on a particular day I don't usually reads the paper then! SO maybe they didn't all KNOW about it, till they saw the thread?!

DutchieGirl
Jan 27th, 2003, 01:11 AM
Originally posted by Car Key Boi
hmm, i confess i use the 'fag' word sometimes

but get this, so do the gay bois who i personally know

i'm not a gay basher, far from it, it's just that i'm a total non-PC asshole, and the same can be said for my gay buddies

in fact, and this is god's fucking troof, a few months ago my buddy Hair Color Boi (who's gay) hacked into an extreme racist/homophobic website and yuo'll love this, he deleted their entire front page and replaced it with just the words YUO=FAG :D

true story folks, i wish i could make up stuff like that

- Car Key Boi

yes, gay people might call other gay people a fag...like within friendship groups and stuff, coz then it's done in a joking way, and your friends know you aren't really insulting them.

I have seen the same think with black Americans calling each other "N*****" but if a white person walked into that group of black people and called then the same then there would be hell to pay (quite ruightly too)... so it's the same with gay people in general... if a non gay person come to you and started calling you a fag then it's not nice!

sartrista7
Jan 27th, 2003, 11:20 AM
I don't even know how people can begin to justify the monkey comment... that's really shocking and yes, the two racist ****s who said that should be fired immediately.

Fag... I find that funny, because it's like, that's a cigarette. I don't find it particularly offensive - if someone's using it to gay-bash, they're obviously not even worthy of my contempt anyway. I use it quite a lot myself in a faux-controversial way.

Experimentee
Jan 27th, 2003, 11:35 AM
Lynx if someone said that Chinese joke to me i would punch them. That was seriously offensive and stereotypical. I dont even eat rice that much. So dont use that example and say no one would be offended by it because i know I and a lot of my asian friends would. Just because the one who said it was asian doesnt mean it wasnt offensive. Black people call each other ******s all the time, but thats still a racist term. So dont pretend that just because some people are ok with a joke means everyone else is.

2284
Jan 27th, 2003, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by Hagar
Such comments can simply never be a joke. There is a line and that line was crossed.
That line is also crossed by Kiwifan. Why would the Belgian fans make excuses for the behaviour of individuals? It was not the Belgians on this board who called Serena and Venus monkeys...
I totally agree

gentenaire
Jan 27th, 2003, 11:43 AM
theultimateone, I didn't hear the comments myself. I hadn't heard about this whole thing until Choco posted it here. I never listen to that show.

per4ever
Jan 27th, 2003, 11:48 AM
btw Q-music is a relatively small radiostation...certainly not a big one :)

per4ever
Jan 27th, 2003, 11:51 AM
and before I get comments on that last post: just wanted to say it's small..not many people listen to it. So I didn't hear about it 'till choco posted it.

This hasn't even been on belgian news :)

Pinkie
Jan 27th, 2003, 12:32 PM
In a European study two years ago, Belgium was ranked as the second most racist country, after Greece, I believe. Belgians also had a really high percentage of people who openly admitted they were racist. So apart from my personal opinion, that's were my previous statement comes from. Every time I travel back to Belgium, I am surprised how tolerated racism is (and I am white! I don't even get to experience most of it myself), it's in the jokes, the clubs people (usually Arabs) can't get it, the statements on tv. The government never did as much as it should have about it out of fear of losing even more people to the racist party.

About Belgians not posting this monkey-news... I had heard about it the day before, but it was a small note in a newspaper and the news didn't carry over to the next day. So I'm not surprised many Belgians didn't notice it.

On the one hand, I'm happy we have this kind of discussion, especially because it raises some tough questions for all Belgians to answer. It makes me so sad to see how ugly my country can be. On the other hand, it's sad to see any kind of wtaworld discussion related to racism degenerate in namecalling, homophobia, etc.

anton
Jan 27th, 2003, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by Experimentee
Black people call each other ******s all the time,

No they don't! Only some Black people do this like rappers and lower class ones. Black people I know do NOT "call each other ******s." And unless you met "most Black people," then how can you speak for them??? :confused:

Josh
Jan 27th, 2003, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by per4ever
This hasn't even been on belgian news :)

And you don't think that's shocking? Just another proof of how racism still has its roots firmly planted in most people's way of thinking.

I hadn't heard ths comment on the radio but I found out a day later when I read a small article about it in "Metro". I couldn't even find an article in Dutch about this and it was finally CHOCO who found an article in an English newspaper. So I'd say it's really sad that it didn't get more coverage in Belgium.

The Crow
Jan 27th, 2003, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by theultimateone
Isn't it curious that it took CHOCO to reveal what these idiots Decker and Ornelis said about Venus and/or Serena.

There are MANY Belgians on this board, yet NONE were honest enough to reveal what actually occurred after Kim and Serena's match (with the exception of JOSH who was looking for article to post). Some of these same individuals will claim emphatically that there is no racism in Belgium or elsewhere; however, knowing that they HEAR these comments often and some if not most PARTICIPATE in same.

I certainly believe Pinkie when she says that this is one of the more racists countries in Europe. These individuals, Decker and Ornelis, would not have made such comments if they had felt there was little to no support for such comments.

Oh please. You're not gonna stereotype a country because they weren't quick anough to post such a story on a board on the internet right?? I hadn't heard about this till saturday (my cousin told me and she also told me the radio has had a lot of reactions about it, maybe that's more important than posting the story on the board??)
And no racism in Belgium?? Please, there's a lot of racism in Belgium. As there is in other countries I presume. But you base your "Belgium is one of the most racist countries in Europe" on what?? And even if that's so, apparently you think all Belgian posters here are racists too, or am I misunderstanding you??

Btw I haven't heard the remarks by those two myself. The term "monkeys" makes me think it's more than a joke, or "in the heat of the moment thing".... Apparently those two are more concerned with "the nation of Belgium" being beaten by black Americans, than with tennis.

per4ever
Jan 27th, 2003, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by Josh
And you don't think that's shocking? Just another proof of how racism still has its roots firmly planted in most people's way of thinking.

I hadn't heard ths comment on the radio but I found out a day later when I read a small article about it in "Metro". I couldn't even find an article in Dutch about this and it was finally CHOCO who found an article in an English newspaper. So I'd say it's really sad that it didn't get more coverage in Belgium.

no I don't think it's shocking at all. I doubt many people are interested in knowing this..

Josh
Jan 27th, 2003, 02:54 PM
I guess people don't take notice if they silently agree with what has been said, otherwise they would be shocked.

Uxobi
Jan 27th, 2003, 03:42 PM
...bottom line--anyone who agrees with those racist comments or just considers them a "joke" are just as foolish as the assholes who made the remarks. How pathetic!

per4ever
Jan 27th, 2003, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by Josh
I guess people don't take notice if they silently agree with what has been said, otherwise they would be shocked.

if you get shocked by this, then I can only say that you get very easily shocked. There are lots worse things going on in the world imo. And I don't agree with them..

Uxobi
Jan 27th, 2003, 04:01 PM
Don't try to justify your ignorance. You disregard the obvious racists comments, but you write a book when someone criticizes the outfit of Justine or the relationship between Kim and Lleyton. WOW!

per4ever
Jan 27th, 2003, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by Uxobi
Don't try to justify your ignorance. You disregard the obvious racists comments, but you write a book when someone criticizes the outfit of Justine or the relationship between Kim and Lleyton. WOW!

just show me a post where I do that :)

Who do you think you are to judge someone else? I doubt you're belgian, I doubt you know anything about the situation here, about the radiostation, those guys etc.

2ace2
Jan 27th, 2003, 04:42 PM
I'm Belgian and I think too those guys should be fired. There's no doubt about it that that was a racist comment. It's really obvious

Uxobi
Jan 27th, 2003, 05:58 PM
I know a racist comment when I see it. I also know that many posters here consider these coments a "joke". Give me a break. I also know that many posters have remaned silent on this issue, but are the loudest posters when challenging less significant issues. I don't support ignorance. I'll speak out against anyone who spews intolerance.

As far as not being Belgian, I don't think I'm missing anything.

The Crow
Jan 27th, 2003, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by Uxobi
I know a racist comment when I see it. I also know that many posters here consider these coments a "joke". Give me a break. I also know that many posters have remaned silent on this issue, but are the loudest posters when challenging less significant issues. I don't support ignorance. I'll speak out against anyone who spews intolerance.

As far as not being Belgian, I don't think I'm missing anything.

That last line seems like intolerance too, but maybe I'm misunderstanding you?

Pinkie
Jan 27th, 2003, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by Uxobi
I also know that many posters have remaned silent on this issue, but are the loudest posters when challenging less significant issues. I don't support ignorance. I'll speak out against anyone who spews intolerance.


Hey, I don't support ignorance either, as my posts about racism in Belgium will support. But assuming that people who are not posting i nthis thread must racist, is just silly. It's hard enough to figure out why people post the things they do, but to assume that you know why people don't post... come on now. Maybe they only like to talk about trivial things? Maybe they don't want to get involved in threads that seem to always end up in personal attacks anyway. I didn't post in any of other threads today... oops wonder what that says about me.

Car Key Boi
Jan 27th, 2003, 07:01 PM
lol, typical wtaworldtard behavior

no matter what the issue, and it can be something serious like this, or something trivial such as whether Kim Cljisters choked when she was giving Leyton some head, sooner or later the posters will turn on each other and start bitching

good entertainment thou

- Car Key Boi :)

Stefke
Jan 27th, 2003, 07:22 PM
Guys what's wrong in here?:confused:

Rae Q.
Jan 27th, 2003, 07:23 PM
Boycotting Antwerp would be totally wrong because you can't take it out on tennis. Venus should speak out against those two loser djs while she's there.

Stefke
Jan 27th, 2003, 07:28 PM
Deckers and Ornelis just laugh with everyone:rolleyes:!!Sometimes it's funny but that's not my favourite kind of radio-programs. They're absolutely no racists!! Maybe some Belgians are, but not more than in other countries.

Mrs. Peel
Jan 27th, 2003, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by Car Key Boi
lol, typical wtaworldtard behavior

no matter what the issue, and it can be something serious like this, or something trivial such as whether Kim Cljisters choked when she was giving Leyton some head, sooner or later the posters will turn on each other and start bitching

good entertainment thou

- Car Key Boi :)



heheheheee :kiss:

~ The Leopard ~
Jan 27th, 2003, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by sartrista7
I don't even know how people can begin to justify the monkey comment... that's really shocking and yes, the two racist ****s who said that should be fired immediately.


Good lord, don't you realise how sexist it is using the word "****" as a term of abuse? It refers to something nice, anyway, so why use it in that way? :)

Of course, you could say the same about "prick", but men are not oppressed like women have been and still are to some extent.

nander
Jan 27th, 2003, 09:10 PM
'Monkeys' from the 'jungle' are several cuts above 'rats' from the sewer.
They should be given a push to crawl back down where they belong.

DutchieGirl
Jan 28th, 2003, 04:12 AM
Originally posted by jouissant
Good lord, don't you realise how sexist it is using the word "****" as a term of abuse? It refers to something nice, anyway, so why use it in that way? :)

Of course, you could say the same about "prick", but men are not oppressed like women have been and still are to some extent.

I wouldn't have said it was sexist, but it's not exactly the nicest word to use anyway! ;)

servenrichie
Jan 28th, 2003, 07:29 AM
What a hilarious thread with all the excuses and justifications going on!
per4ever :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
fleemke :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Lynx :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Stefke :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Thanxs Josh. I have sent in my mail too.

Yet someone who shall remain nameless here, was trying to convince me there is no racism in Belgium and if there was only against Arabs:mad: :mad:

gentenaire
Jan 28th, 2003, 08:12 AM
another someone who shall remain nameless here doesn't know the difference between 'only' and 'mainly'

Maajken
Jan 28th, 2003, 09:34 AM
I'd use the word "bosaap" to describe a person with excessive hairgrowth lol (in a funny way i might add) thus comparing this person to yes a monkey because of the way they both look. Would that be racist?

That said...ive never listened to this radioshow before and i doubt i ever will. Those 2 men obviously shouldnt have made those comments and ought to be punished for it. Full stop. The fact is, as far as i know, they're quite important for this radiostation so i highly doubt they'll ever actually get fired.

gentenaire
Jan 28th, 2003, 09:50 AM
This is the reply I got to my e-mail:

"eerst en vooral is dit een volledig uit de hand gelopen verhaal. Wij hebben grappen gemaakt over de fysieke bouw die de Williamsen hebben....niet over hun huidskleur. Misschien is dat ook verkeerd...maar het was zeker niet racistisch. Wij zijn geen racisten. Integendeel. Elke uitspraak die in ons programma naar onverdraagzaamheid ruikt wordt afgestraft.

De man die klacht tegen ons heeft ingediend is ondertussen bijna een vriend geworden. We hebben heel lang gepraat en hebben er héél veel spijt van dat dit zo uit de hand gelopen is.

De buitenlandse pers heeft een totaal ongenuanceerd bericht overgenomen. Uiteindelijk lijkt het alsof we in ons programma een hetze tegen de gekleurde medemens hebben gevoerd. En dat was absoluut niet het geval.

En jammer genoeg zijn ook de Vlaamse kranten, met de verkiezingen in aantocht, met veel plezier op deze zaak gesprongen en hebben ook zij er een lekker brokje sensatie van gemaakt.

Met vriendelijke groeten,

Erwin Deckers "

per4ever
Jan 28th, 2003, 09:52 AM
well it only confirms the things I said. The press made it a big deal..

gentenaire
Jan 28th, 2003, 09:59 AM
translation:

First of all, this is a story that has gotten out of hand. We made jokes about the physical build of the Williams sisters, not their skin colour. Maybe this was wrong too...but it wasn't racist. We're not racists. Quite the contrary. Every statement made in our programme that hints towards discrimination is punished.

The man who filed the complaint has almost become a friend now. We've had a very long talk and we regret very much that this has gotten out of hand.

De foreign press has taken over an unnuanced report. It almost seemed as if we started a campaign against blacks which was absolutely not the case.

And unfortunately, the Flemish press, with the elections coming soon, jumped on the bandwagon and blew up the whole thing.

gentenaire
Jan 28th, 2003, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by Superschacht Maeike
I'd use the word "bosaap" to describe a person with excessive hairgrowth lol (in a funny way i might add) thus comparing this person to yes a monkey because of the way they both look. Would that be racist?


I must confess I've called Sampras a bosaap several times :o

anton
Jan 28th, 2003, 10:02 AM
not again :rolleyes:

Venus and Serena are TWO people, not ONE. Serena is very muscular but Venus lost a lot of muscle during her injury break in 2000 and still does not have it back.

Why do people feel the need to talk about them as if they are 1 person?

gentenaire
Jan 28th, 2003, 10:07 AM
Anton, I always have the same reaction. Serena is extremely muscular, too muscular IMO, but it has certainly worked for her. Venus is quite elegant.

These guys aren't sports commentators though, I highly doubt they know much about tennis.

tennischick
Jan 28th, 2003, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by Beggin' Beguine
I must confess I've called Sampras a bosaap several times :o

Oooo! a new nickname for the Android!! thanks Tine...:D :D

servenrichie
Jan 28th, 2003, 10:33 AM
And i remember the uproar when Richard Williams refered to Sprilea as a " big white turkey". Everyone including people doing a lof of explaining and justifications here felt that statement was racist. The explanation above is just bull. What you are thinking is what comes out of your mouth. Up till today, i never knew apes had so much muscles...

per4ever
Jan 28th, 2003, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by servenrichie
And i remember the uproar when Richard Williams refered to Sprilea as a " big white turkey". Everyone including people doing a lof of explaining and justifications here felt that statement was racist. The explanation above is just bull. What you are thinking is what comes out of your mouth. Up till today, i never knew apes had so much muscles...

:rolleyes: you don't know exactly what happened so just shut up

~ The Leopard ~
Jan 28th, 2003, 10:51 AM
Let's move on. Of course it was racist. It is not excusable. Most of us don't know enough about Belgium or the circumstances to know how much it typified Belgian society (after the ludicrous pontification about Australian society on various other threads...mainly by Americans....I sympathise with the Belgians here). Any complaints should be handled under Belgian anti-vilification law.

End of story.

Car Key Boi
Jan 28th, 2003, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by Beggin' Beguine
This is the reply I got to my e-mail:

"eerst en vooral is dit een volledig uit de hand gelopen verhaal. Wij hebben grappen gemaakt over de fysieke bouw die de Williamsen hebben....niet over hun huidskleur. Misschien is dat ook verkeerd...maar het was zeker niet racistisch. Wij zijn geen racisten. Integendeel. Elke uitspraak die in ons programma naar onverdraagzaamheid ruikt wordt afgestraft.

De man die klacht tegen ons heeft ingediend is ondertussen bijna een vriend geworden. We hebben heel lang gepraat en hebben er héél veel spijt van dat dit zo uit de hand gelopen is.

De buitenlandse pers heeft een totaal ongenuanceerd bericht overgenomen. Uiteindelijk lijkt het alsof we in ons programma een hetze tegen de gekleurde medemens hebben gevoerd. En dat was absoluut niet het geval.

En jammer genoeg zijn ook de Vlaamse kranten, met de verkiezingen in aantocht, met veel plezier op deze zaak gesprongen en hebben ook zij er een lekker brokje sensatie van gemaakt.

Met vriendelijke groeten,

Erwin Deckers "

what's the dude's e-mail address?

i've got another of my insomnia attakcs so i'm gonna spend an hour on the Photoshop again, and this time i'm gonna do a proper job :D

*CKB goes in search of a gay interacial porn site*

- Car Key Boi :D

servenrichie
Jan 28th, 2003, 10:58 AM
per4ever wrote:

you don't know exactly what happened so just shut up

Perhaps you know it exactly, idiot!

per4ever
Jan 28th, 2003, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by servenrichie
per4ever wrote:
Perhaps you know it exactly, idiot!

at least I know the situation here in Belgium..and I don't judge people on what I heard from some unreliable source.

servenrichie
Jan 28th, 2003, 11:07 AM
Shove off! Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound in trying to justify something that is absolutely wrong, so wrong you can smell it a mile off and cover it with "knowing the situation in Belgium".
Is Josh not living in Belgium?

per4ever
Jan 28th, 2003, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by servenrichie
Shove off! Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound in trying to justify something that is absolutely wrong, so wrong you can smell it a mile off and cover it with "knowing the situation in Belgium".
Is Josh not living in Belgium?
Josh lives in Belgium yes...and he thinks probably like you.

It's my right not to agree..I really think this is totally unimportant. A stupid remark that should have never been said..but that's it.

servenrichie
Jan 28th, 2003, 12:13 PM
And it is my right not to agree. That statement is racially motivated and should not just be brushed over like that.

Pinkie
Jan 28th, 2003, 12:26 PM
To me the explanation is not a justification. It seems they don't want to understand that what they said was racist. Let's face it, "bosaap" is 99% of the time used in a racist context. And if Serena Williams would have been white, they wouldn't have called her a monkey. So yes, the statement was very much racist. And in a civilized society, people do raise a stink about that. I will give the two the benefit of the doubt in the sense that this seems more racism by ignorance rather than racism by superiority complex. Maybe now that they have been 'educated', they will realize they were wrong.

For the Belgians here, I know it's natural to want to defend your country, especially to people who have never even been there. But in a region where 30 percent of people in the biggest city (Antwerp) vote for a racist party, where 1/3 of clubs won't allow people with a colored skin, where people with a Muslim name have such trouble finding an apartment outside "immigrant" neigbourhoods,... you have to own up to living in a racist society at some point. I've gone out with friends of Arabic descent and for some reason their drinks were disgusting. But people say you can't say anything because it must be "coincidence". And when balck people get called monkeys, it's a "joke." At some point you have to face a problem when you see it, joke or not.

fleemke³
Jan 28th, 2003, 12:29 PM
ok let's face it

I'm Belgian so I'm a rascist and I hate fans of other players :rolleyes:

servenrichie
Jan 28th, 2003, 12:33 PM
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: @fleemke²

Elke
Jan 28th, 2003, 12:39 PM
Foei, Fleemke!:p
It was a racist comment, allright.
I'm not trying to defend my country, but racism is also a matter of integration, and it's just that what's going wrong in Antwerp. I live near Genk, there are +60 different nationalities and there are almost no problems, but I work in Antwerp, it's a huge difference!

gentenaire
Jan 28th, 2003, 12:41 PM
Exactly, Elke, it's a two way thing. Racists put all the blame on the immigrants, people here and immigrants put all the blame on the Belgians, the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Car Key Boi
Jan 28th, 2003, 12:46 PM
e-mail address???

i've done one pic of the dude on the left :D

anton
Jan 28th, 2003, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by Pinkie
30 percent of people in the biggest city (Antwerp) vote for a racist party, where 1/3 of clubs won't allow people with a colored skin, where people with a Muslim name have such trouble finding an apartment outside "immigrant" neigbourhoods,... you have to own up to living in a racist society at some point. I've gone out with friends of Arabic descent and for some reason their drinks were disgusting.

do you mean private social clubs or just regular dance clubs?

Also there was a recent study done in the USA that showed that people with a "white sounding" name got more responses from their resumes and more requests for job interviews. Sadly some people just still have certain prejudcies.

Josh
Jan 28th, 2003, 01:29 PM
deckersenornelis@q-music.be

Lame excuse lol, I didn't even get a reply to my email but mine was probably a bit less civil than Tine's. ;)
Anyway they should have acknowledged that what they said was racist instead of brushing it off by saying : "We're not racists, it was taken out of context, we were refering to their body build BLAHHHHHH". If they were beaten by some bodybuilding white woman they would not have used that word.

Anyway I keep saying it, things like that prove that racism is still very much rooted inside society. The fact that people think it's not important or trivial or even a joke indicates that. I mean it's easy to say you're not a racist but when you make comments like that some self-reflection might be in order. Deckers and Ornelis may not be racists, they might even have black, Asian,...friends but apparently in the heat of the moment the first thing that comes out is a racist comment. That's like saying : I like people of all skin colours and I have no problems with them but if it was possible I would have preferred everyone to be white. :rolleyes:

BOOOOH to them!

The Crow
Jan 28th, 2003, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by Pinkie
To me the explanation is not a justification. It seems they don't want to understand that what they said was racist. Let's face it, "bosaap" is 99% of the time used in a racist context. And if Serena Williams would have been white, they wouldn't have called her a monkey. So yes, the statement was very much racist. And in a civilized society, people do raise a stink about that. I will give the two the benefit of the doubt in the sense that this seems more racism by ignorance rather than racism by superiority complex. Maybe now that they have been 'educated', they will realize they were wrong.

For the Belgians here, I know it's natural to want to defend your country, especially to people who have never even been there. But in a region where 30 percent of people in the biggest city (Antwerp) vote for a racist party, where 1/3 of clubs won't allow people with a colored skin, where people with a Muslim name have such trouble finding an apartment outside "immigrant" neigbourhoods,... you have to own up to living in a racist society at some point. I've gone out with friends of Arabic descent and for some reason their drinks were disgusting. But people say you can't say anything because it must be "coincidence". And when balck people get called monkeys, it's a "joke." At some point you have to face a problem when you see it, joke or not.

Ok, so you believe all those "Vlaams Blok" voters are racists. I'm not that pessimistic and believe there's a reason they vote the way they do. And the reason is not solely racism, I should hope. If you want to admit it or not, majority of the people are not happy with the "integration" of different cultures. A sad fact maybe, but people aren't just ready for it in Europe/Belgium. Or anywhere. If you also see that there's a lot of unsafety caused by immigrants (not only by immigrants mind you). If for instance an immigrant has comitted a crime, you hear the lefties yell "he will be punished harder because he's an immigrant" "it's not fair" "it's racism" while the ultra right will yell "it's yet again an immigrant, just throw them all out".

It's just not that easy as you let it seem, Pinkie. I know people who are normally friendly, helpfull, ... but when it comes to immigrants they have a "No way" attitude. You can call them racists, but racists are bad people, while I know for a fact that these people are not bad. So the problem must be more complex than that. Unfortunately so is the solution.

And I'm talking here about the Belgian situation (could be extended to Europe I guess), but not about American situation, although there are probably similarities.

Josh
Jan 28th, 2003, 01:40 PM
Crow, I don't agree with you. Racists can be very nice and friendly people but only when it comes to race they will show their bad side. I mean, there were perfectly good, god-fearing white plantation owners who probably thought that they were being very kind to their black slaves, yet they were racists because they thought of black people as less human than them.

Even today you have perfectly nice people with a good job, children, who have never committed a crime, pay their taxes on time, donate money to charity, yet when ther are faced with a person of a different skin colour or from a different culture they "suddenly" become racist.

About people voting for the Vlaams Blok....I'm sorry but if you vote for a party that is clearly racist, no matter what your motives are, you are approving their racism. It is morally wrong to vote for such a party if you feel that every person is equal. If they would not be racist (not necessary blatantly) they would have moral objections in voting for that party.

gentenaire
Jan 28th, 2003, 01:42 PM
Wow, am I the only one who got a reply? Should I feel honoured? My e-mail really wasn't that nice, rather sarcastic in fact.

Josh
Jan 28th, 2003, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by anton
do you mean private social clubs or just regular dance clubs?

Also there was a recent study done in the USA that showed that people with a "white sounding" name got more responses from their resumes and more requests for job interviews. Sadly some people just still have certain prejudcies.

Both.
An undercover TV crew went to several discos and clubs with some foreign looking guys and they were refused almost everywhere saying that they needed a special club card or that the club was full etc... but when the Belgian guys went alone there was suddenly no problem anymore.

gentenaire
Jan 28th, 2003, 01:45 PM
Josh, a lot of people don't believe Vlaams Blok is a racist party. I've heard quite a few people say that it's the other parties who put the label 'racist' on them. I don't agree with them, but 't Vlaams Blok keeps persisting they're not racists, there are quite a few people who believe them.

anton
Jan 28th, 2003, 01:45 PM
this negative energy reminds me of the reaction in Germany to Boris Becker marring a woman of color. She was greeted with shouts of "go back to the bush", whatever that means.

Josh
Jan 28th, 2003, 01:47 PM
I think that's their excuse to justify their vote.

per4ever
Jan 28th, 2003, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by Josh
Both.
An undercover TV crew went to several discos and clubs with some foreign looking guys and they were refused almost everywhere saying that they needed a special club card or that the club was full etc... but when the Belgian guys went alone there was suddenly no problem anymore.

may be you should realise that there are still lots of problems with immigrants. The problems in that sector (disco's, clubs) are mainly caused by gangs, mostly consisting of immigrants. That's the only reason they do that...to prevent things to happen.

Bad thing is that they block the good guys also :(

Josh
Jan 28th, 2003, 01:51 PM
There are also lots of problems with Belgians, yet they are still allowed in.

gentenaire
Jan 28th, 2003, 01:52 PM
so that people here would get an idea of the views of the Vlaams Blok. This is taken from their website:

Programme
OUR OWN PEOPLE FIRST: A STRICTER IMMIGRATION POLICY

Flanders - at the crossroads of cultures

Flanders is at the crossroads of cultures. Great nations, like Spain, France, England and Germany have made their mark on Flemish history. Today, Flanders is an outward-looking land with international ports and an economy oriented towards export. The Flemings are renowned for their linguistic abilities. In addition to their mother tongue, most Flemings speak one, two or even three other languages. Many Flemings hold senior positions in international organisations. In the average Fleming's living room can be found a TV set with 30 channels in nine different languages. Flemings, then, are undoubtedly very open towards other peoples and cultures.

But like other western European countries, Flanders is confronted with the problem of increasing immigration from outside Europe. About half of the population of Brussels is already of non-Belgian extraction, while the number of foreigners is growing very fast in cities like Antwerp, Mechelen, Ghent, Lokeren and St Niklaas. The party wishes to see a hospitable but recognisably Flemish Flanders. We do not wish to see our country degenerate into a collection of adjacent ethnic ghettoes.

What does the party propose?

The Vlaams Blok wants an open debate about the immigration issue. The population should be fully informed and be able to decide on the issue in a referendum.

Further features of our views on the immigration issue are:



Watertight immigration stop, among other things through re-examining family reunion; tighter control of false marriages, limitation of political asylum to Europeans; obligatory return of foreign students after they have finished their studies in Flanders.
Neutralize the demographic time bomb through pro family and pro child policies.
Break the taboo of crime by foreigners; repatriation of criminal foreigners.
End positive discrimination with respect to employment and social amenities.
Stop abuse of political asylum and repatriate illegal aliens and people whose application for asylum has been rejected.
Conduct a humane policy of return. This return should occur within the framework of a general development programme for Turkey and Northern Africa. These returnees, some of whom will be skilled youths, will receive Belgian funds, to be invested in the economy of their homeland. The Vlaams Blok wants to increase significantly the development funds for Northern Africa and Turkey. The economic growth of this area will benefit the local population and will decrease immigration pressure on Western Europe.

On citizenship

Some foreigners who live in Flanders will wish to remain here permanently. This state of affairs will of course always be possible so far as we are concerned. But acquisition of our citizenship should only be a reward for a successful immigration process. The party seeks to undo the new naturalisation law, which almost 'gives away' Belgian citizenship. This law, arguably the most lenient in the world, grants citizenship to foreigners after a stay of a mere three years in Belgium, without their having to prove that they speak Dutch or French or that they have otherwise adjusted to life in Belgium. Acquisition of citizenship should be more than just a formality.

On freedom of religion

The Vlaams Blok is, as a non-denominational party, a proponent of freedom of religion. Everybody in Flanders should be able to profess his religion. This does not mean that every religion has to be officially recognised, i.e. subsidized by the state. Islam should be practised feely in Flanders but the authorities should not recognise, i.e. subsidize, it.


Programme
THE RIGHT TO PERSONAL SAFETY - PUNITIVE MEASURES AGAINST CRIME

The Dutroux scandal

The crimes of the paedophile Dutroux and his accomplices propelled Belgium into the international spotlight. Yet Dutroux is only the tip of the iceberg. The authorities are increasingly unable to guarantee personal safety from crime.

Crime occurs in every society, but the number of recorded criminal acts in Belgium is rising exponentially. Every year, there is an average 10% increase in recorded crime. Current government response is much too lenient. The police are instructed not to intervene in some problem areas. The overwhelming majority of criminal acts go unpunished. Prisoners are systematically released early.

Along with a large proportion of the population, the Vlaams Blok demands a much tougher response to crime. This will require the commitment of more financial resources. Moreover, the various police forces should be amalgamated into one, more efficient force. But presently, the political will to fight crime seriously is completely lacking. It is doubtful that the necessary change of political mentality is possible within the present Belgian system - because, as in so many other areas, Flemings and Walloons differ in their approaches to policing and the judicial system. It is for this reason that the Vlaams Blok proposes separate Flemish and Walloon justice and police administrations.

Vlaams Blok proposals

The party proposes the following measures to combat crime:

The Blok believes in the necessity of condign punishment for all crimes, especially for such crimes as child molestation and murder. Early release in such cases should be made impossible.
We want zero tolerance in problem neighbourhoods. More attention has to be given to those crimes that most irritate people: burglary, assault, drugs, hooliganism and vandalism. Johan Demol, formerly the chief of police of the Brussels town of Schaarbeek (now a VB member of the Flemish and Brussels Parliaments) conducted this policy with great success.
Criminal foreigners should be sent back home. Whosoever abuses our hospitality should be expelled from the country immediately. Approximately one third of all crime is committed by foreigners. About 40% of all prisoners are foreigners. Foreigners are of course not intrinsically more criminal , but the cultural alienation of many immigrants clearly increases the likelihood of criminal behaviour. Open borders and lax policies have enabled organised criminal gangs from eastern Europe to expand their operations into our country.
We want to abolish the law that makes possible the early release of prisoners. In 1980, 25% of prisoners were released early. In 1995, an astonishing 97% of prisoners were released early. Despite the constant rises in crime, the number of prisoners has declined from 20,000 in 1980 to 16,000 in 1995.
Victims of crime are often left simply to suffer from their experiences. The Vlaams Blok demands better indemnity for the victims of violent crime and improved psychological and legal support for all victims.
Drugs? Just say no!

Possession of drugs is illegal in Belgium, but in reality there is a general policy of tolerance. Several political parties regularly propose the legalisation of the possession and use of "soft" drugs. The party is against this. The legalisation of such drugs can only increase their use and provide thousands of users with an avenue towards harder drugs. It is not legislation that forces drug users into crime. If drug users, despite all warnings and despite prohibition, still use drugs, then they should be held responsible, as should drug dealers and those who depict drugs as being harmless and "liberating". The party believes that severe action should be taken against drug dealers. Drug addicts should not be imprisoned, but placed in closed treatment centres where they can receive help to enable them to break their addiction.

anton
Jan 28th, 2003, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by Josh
Both.
An undercover TV crew went to several discos and clubs with some foreign looking guys and they were refused almost everywhere saying that they needed a special club card or that the club was full etc... but when the Belgian guys went alone there was suddenly no problem anymore.

this is awful to read :confused: what's up with belgium? Private clubs have a right to set certain rules to a degree but the public dance clubs too? :( I'm shocked and surprised.

Also those 2 guys did not email me either. Who do they think they are to ignore all their emails?

Pinkie
Jan 28th, 2003, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by The Crow
Ok, so you believe all those "Vlaams Blok" voters are racists. I'm not that pessimistic and believe there's a reason they vote the way they do. And the reason is not solely racism, I should hope. If you want to admit it or not, majority of the people are not happy with the "integration" of different cultures. A sad fact maybe, but people aren't just ready for it in Europe/Belgium. Or anywhere. If you also see that there's a lot of unsafety caused by immigrants (not only by immigrants mind you). If for instance an immigrant has comitted a crime, you hear the lefties yell "he will be punished harder because he's an immigrant" "it's not fair" "it's racism" while the ultra right will yell "it's yet again an immigrant, just throw them all out".

It's just not that easy as you let it seem, Pinkie. I know people who are normally friendly, helpfull, ... but when it comes to immigrants they have a "No way" attitude.

I guess this is more of a non-tennis discussion now, but hey...

I know the problem is complex. And I know there are problems in the immigrant neighborhoods. There are problems with crime. There are problems with integration. Hey, one of my best friends was beaten up by a gang of young Maroccan kids for no reason :( But a criminal is a criminal and your reaction to him/her should not depend his/her race. If it does, that is a racist reaction. It really is that simple. The problems are about crime, about education, about poverty, about not getting equal chances. And if you decide to deal with complex problems like that by voting for a party that wants to put all immigrants in separate schools, housing, etc, until they can flown "home" in cargo planes, you have made the choice to deal with the problems in terms of race. And to me that is racism.

gentenaire
Jan 28th, 2003, 01:56 PM
anton, I think that's the case in many countries, not just Belgium. It just so happens that here it's being investigated.

Is there more doping in cycling than in other sports? I don't think so, they just happen to test cyclists a lot more and to reveal the results to the press immediately.

per4ever
Jan 28th, 2003, 01:56 PM
*sigh* I knew you would say that. Let's say it's about 75% immigrants and 25% belgians.. certainly in that sector!

Some people are just soooo ignorant, always saying 'all people equal' etc etc.. but you first have to solve the existing problems before you can think about that! The fact is that immigrants still cause lots of problems because they aren't integrated, they often don't talk our language, have no job etc. If you're in such a situation you easily get into crime.

Josh
Jan 28th, 2003, 02:00 PM
So for you an immigrant is not equal to a Belgian as long as they don't speak our language or don't have a job?

And about those percentages...are you basing yourself on research that was done or did you just come up with those numbers yourself?

gentenaire
Jan 28th, 2003, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by Pinkie
Hey, one of my best friends was beaten up by a gang of young Maroccan kids for no reason :( But a criminal is a criminal and your reaction to him/her should not depend his/her race. If it does, that is a racist reaction. It really is that simple.

That's true. A friend of mine of mine got beaten up as well by Maroccans, also for no reason at al,l and while she lying in hospital the police advised her not to press charges for her own safety! So when there's a party that says that all immigrants who commit a serious offence should be send home, people vote for them.


And if you decide to deal with complex problems like that by voting for a party that wants to put all immigrants in separate schools, housing, etc, until they can flown "home" in cargo planes, you have made the choice to deal with the problems in terms of race. And to me that is racism.

Most people want the exact opposite! Vlaams Blok wants the opposite too. The ideal would be that we all live together, mixed. An awful lot would be solved then. Most people want the immigrants to integrate! Integrate, adapt to the Belgian lifestyle, learn our language, etc. Lots of people feel that those who refuse to learn our language, those who don't want to integrate, that they should be sent home.

They don't realise that it's not quite that simple.

per4ever
Jan 28th, 2003, 02:04 PM
those numbers have been on tv..on Zwart/wit if I remember it well..it was something like that, don't know the exact ones anymore.

And for me an immigrant who doesn't want to integrate should leave. They have the same human rights of course..but if you want to live in a country, then you have to adapt yourself to that country!!!!!!!! Seems like they want US to change instead of them (cfr AEL)

le-plus-beau
Jan 28th, 2003, 02:04 PM
THE GUY WHO SAID THAT I SEND MY NOTE:


GO TO HELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!

Josh
Jan 28th, 2003, 02:06 PM
Also your observation is not correct.

"The fact is that immigrants still cause lots of problems because they aren't integrated, they often don't talk our language, have no job etc."

People from the 1st or 2nd generation, the ones who came here when they were needed are not the ones causing trouble. They are the parents or grandparents of the teenagers or adolescents of today. They are the ones that make themselves heard. Why? Because they were born here, went to school here, speak our language, yet they are confronted every day with discrimination. They don't get the job they applied for, they are refused access to a club, etc... When these things keep happening for not apparent other reason than the skin colour it will get frustrating for them and then you have trouble. Trouble that society created itself by being discriminating.

The Crow
Jan 28th, 2003, 02:08 PM
Ok Josh, so what's your solution? Is the way the government is going here the right one in your opinion or what??

per4ever
Jan 28th, 2003, 02:09 PM
since when are people from 1st and 2nd generation immigrants? Dictionary says that immigrants are people who left their homecountry to live in your country.

The people you talk about are belgians.

gentenaire
Jan 28th, 2003, 02:10 PM
And don't forget that we live in a wellfare state. We pay a lot of taxes, get a lot for it in return. When you see how much of your money is going to taxes, and next you see someone who refuses to learn our language -and therefore decreases his chances of finding a job immensly- living off this tax money, it can make a person angry. Or you hear about 'travel agencies' in Afghanistan where they promote trips to Belgium because you get money there for free...Just make up a sad story and you get money and housing. Fortunately, they no longer do that, give money, I mean. The number of asylum seekers has dropped an awful lot since then.

Integration, integration, integration, that's what it's all about.

per4ever
Jan 28th, 2003, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by Beggin' Beguine
Integration, integration, integration, that's what it's all about.
soo true :)

And if the AEL get what it wants ..it's own schools, it will only get worse.

what_about_me
Jan 28th, 2003, 02:13 PM
[Admin edit]

Josh
Jan 28th, 2003, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by per4ever
since when are people from 1st and 2nd generation immigrants? Dictionary says that immigrants are people who left their homecountry to live in your country.

The people you talk about are belgians.

UH? All the Moroccans and Turks who came here in the 60s-70s to work in the mines mainly. They are the parents or grandparents of those gangs you were talking about. Yes I know they are all Belgians but they still have a different skin colour and a foreign sounding name, no?

per4ever
Jan 28th, 2003, 02:17 PM
It's just an integration problem Josh. There's just a small part of the immigrants that studies, most of 1st and 2nd generation speak dutch (or french)..but when they still stick all together. They hang out on the streets, talking turkish or maroc (rarely dutch). It only causes people to be afraid..and they cause the feeling that they are a separate group instead of fellow-belgians.

gentenaire
Jan 28th, 2003, 02:17 PM
I think that if Bush was Belgian, he'd be a Vlaams Blokker. The views are very similar.

Pinkie
Jan 28th, 2003, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by The Crow
Ok Josh, so what's your solution?

Can I give my solution?;)

Time. Time for immigrants who often have a very different culture than ours to find their place in Belgian society, with a mix of Belgian and their native values. Time for Belgians to realize that they can't live on their little rich white island, that immigration will continue and that having people with different cultures, languages, etc, around you is not a bad thing.

Good will. Immigrants are here to stay. Period. Voting for a racist party is hardly a constructive way to deal with it. Immigrant groups will have to make an effort to be part of Belgian society.

Deal with racism as the problem that it is. If non-white Belgians wouldn't have to deal with racist cops, discrimination at school and in finding a job, etc. many of the probelms we have right now would not exist.

Iconoclast
Jan 28th, 2003, 02:21 PM
Tainting Vlaams Blok and similar anti-immigration parties with the racist tag is just an all too transparent attempt to defuse their, sadly, valid criticism of utterly failed asylum and immigration policies. People vote for them because they address real problems that the political establishment wants to sweep under the rug. They may not offer the most viable solutions, but at least they are not in denial out of fear of being castigated as morally reprehensible individuals.

This has nothing to do with the two dim-witted radio hosts, of course. This sort of comment could have been made in other countries as well, but Clijsters and Henin represent Belgium after all, so it was always more likely that frustrations of the petty-minded would spill over and assume such acerbic forms there.

per4ever
Jan 28th, 2003, 02:21 PM
Time is no solution..the problem will only get worse.

Josh
Jan 28th, 2003, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by per4ever
It's just an integration problem Josh. There's just a small part of the immigrants that studies, most of 1st and 2nd generation speak dutch (or french)..but when they still stick all together. They hang out on the streets, talking turkish or maroc (rarely dutch). It only causes people to be afraid..and they cause the feeling that they are a separate group instead of fellow-belgians.

Why can't they talk in Turkish or Arabic against eachother lol? I mean, most Eurocrats who live in Belgium don't even speak Dutch or French and they are talking English against eachother, yet they are well accepted in our society.

Integration is indeed necessary but when the government has neglected the issue for so long then it's not surprising that you get problems. And it's of course easy to put all the blame on the immigrants when they weren't even given a proper chance to integrate.

per4ever
Jan 28th, 2003, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by Iconoclast
Tainting Vlaams Blok and similar anti-immigration parties with the racist tag is just an all too transparent attempt to defuse their, sadly, valid criticism of utterly failed asylum and immigration policies. People vote for them because they address real problems that the political establishment wants to sweep under the rug. They may not offer the most viable solutions, but at least they are not in denial out of fear of being castigated as morally reprehensible individuals.

the problem with Vlaams Blok is that this is their only main point!!! And there's lots more in politics then this..

per4ever
Jan 28th, 2003, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by Josh
Why can't they talk in Turkish or Arabic against eachother lol? I mean, most Eurocrats who live in Belgium don't even speak Dutch or French and they are talking English against eachother, yet they are well accepted in our society.

Eurocrats are not supposed to live here forever no?

If everyone speaks the same language the risk op misunderstandings etc are lots smaller.. hearing dutch sounds more familiar to everyone, and makes people feel more safe.

but like Joris said..how would you solve it Josh?? I live close to Lokeren and Sint-Niklaas, and I know it's not a small problem..it's a huge problem which has to be dealt with asap.

Pinkie
Jan 28th, 2003, 02:27 PM
Almost every Belgian takes advantage of the system. Collecting unemployment because they don't feel like working, cheating on taxes, "zwart werken", building houses without permits,... Why the double standard for immigrants? Or using your integration argument, in that sense they have integrated just fine ;)