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Scotso
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:28 AM
Yes, they lost.

No, the score wasn't 1-6 1-6.

They played a much better *doubles* match than the Williams sisters did, in the end they were just overpowered.

Maybe next time people won't be so dismissive of their talent.

BK4ever
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:32 AM
I don't think anyone was dismissing their talent. I really felt that given the surface that the sisters "could" overpower them. Why dismiss a team who lost a close match to the sisters at Wimby. Paola and Vivi played really good positions and prevented serena and venus from ovepowering them for most of the match.

Lets not start anything...just say congrats to both teams and move on.

Uxobi
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:33 AM
Thank you!

Scotso
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:34 AM
BK, a lot of people were dismissing their talent.

Bright Red
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:36 AM
Who dismissed V & P? They obviously played very well. I think, however, that they'll still receive some flack because they complained about the seeding without being able to back it up.

Hurley
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:38 AM
Vivi didn't complain. Why do people keep saying that? :mad:

Ruano Pascual and partner Paola Suarez of Argentina are only seeded No.2 at Australian Open 2003, despite being the highest-ranked doubles pair in the world, but she doesn't think there as anything wrong with the Williams sisters receiving the top seeding at the event.

"If the tournament (officials) put them at number one I understand that," she said.

Link: http://ausopen.org/en_AU/news/articles/200301191723583832d8f6f5b922df00256cb3002301aa.htm l

LucasArg
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:39 AM
Paola & Vivi won 2 Slams last year, they feel very good together and they are N#1.
The sisters play good in singles but they don't play very well the doubles, they just hit everything they reach. And that's enough to win.

I am happy cos' Paola & Vivi reached their first OZ final, and of course I am happy Serena & Venus won it.

The thing is Paola & Vivi are the best doubles team in the world and Serena & Venus are the best players in the world.:D

EVERYBODY HAPPY!;) :wavey:

LucasArg
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:41 AM
Originally posted by Bright Red
Who dismissed V & P? They obviously played very well. I think, however, that they'll still receive some flack because they complained about the seeding without being able to back it up.

As I said before, the seeding thing is not fair, but that's something not really important here. Paola and Vivi showed they can play at the highest level together.

Uxobi
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:41 AM
I didn't want to go there, but since you did BR....Venus and Serena would the favorite without regard to seed. Imagine the flack if they met unseeded Venus/Serena in the first round.

Bright Red
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:42 AM
I may be wrong, but I think one of them complained about it. At any rate, they showed why they're #1 in the world. They play like Siamese twins -- they're so connected. I also like how much they were smiling and high-fiving.

I'm happy it was somewhat close.

Cybelle Darkholme
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:43 AM
The better players beat the better team. It was close though and could have gone either way.

P and V should have been seeded one, but thats an issue they should take up with the tournament not V and S.

Also that crap about being overpowered is just that, crap. Did you not see the lobs and volleys that P and V used to counter the power? They were outplayed in the end by the top two players in the world. Period.

Good match from both. I knew they were a great team but its good see P and V back it up with a great run and almost win. I'm sure they will be number one for the French.

Scotso
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:44 AM
Hello? This thread is NOT about Venus and Serena.

All I'm doing is congratulating Vivi and Paola.

Dawn Marie
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:45 AM
Oz is to blame becasue they totally dismissed Paola and Vivi. If they were two Australian doubles players who won the same amount that P and V won they would have seeded them #1.

THIS IS THE REAL PROBLEM.

p.s. Kylie was watching them play doubles!! I bet she likes V@S in action!! Go Kylie!! whooooo hooo.

Bright Red
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:46 AM
Originally posted by Uxobi
I didn't want to go there, but since you did BR....Venus and Serena would the favorite without regard to seed. Imagine the flack if they met unseeded Venus/Serena in the first round.

You know the media and we the board will want to say something about it. So don't lay it on me, Uxobi.:o I think Mary Jo said something to the effect that she wouldn't have complained. Oh well, V & P should keep their heads up high tonight. They'll keep their rank.

Dawn Marie
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:46 AM
Hello this thread is about the doubles match.. hello? Anyone there? lol

BK4ever
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:47 AM
You brought them up...like I said before...LETS MOVE ON...

Hurley
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:47 AM
Originally posted by Bright Red
I may be wrong, but I think one of them complained about it.

Then don't say "they complained." That was my only point. :)

Anyway, this thread doesn't need to degenerate. They are the best doubles teams in the world and they played a very close, very good final. Congrats to both.

LucasArg
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:50 AM
BTW, Will Andre and Steffi be 1st seeded at the French???:p

Uxobi
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:52 AM
I think Venus and Serena are the best doubles team in the world. P/V are ranked #1 because they play far more doubles events. They have not been able to defeat Venus and Serena @ the GS level.

Bright Red
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:54 AM
You may make the distinction, Hurley. But few others will -- mainly because its not that important. Even the ESPN commentators grouped them together by pointing out that they would get their chance to show why they should have been seeded #1. That's how most of us see them (they are a team, right?) ;)

Hurley
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:57 AM
Doesn't make it right. They also kept calling them the "underdogs" even though they're ranked first and second in the world. Just because people SAY something to make it more palatable doesn't mean it's correct.

Paola complained. Vivi didn't -- at least not in public. I just wanted to make that clear, is all.

BK4ever
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:59 AM
Pam and Mary said in a previous commentary that Vivi went to the officials and complained. Who knows what the truth is, but it doesnt matter...ITS OVER

Scotso
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:00 AM
Yes, they kept calling Vivi names. I thought that was REALLY low and REALLY xenophobic by the commentators.

I used to like Mary and Pam, but after hearing them go on about how Vivi is a whiner, I lost ALL respect for them.

Uxobi
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:00 AM
What difference does seeding make? If a team or individual plays well, they will win regardless of seeding.

Cybelle Darkholme
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:02 AM
Hello? This thread is NOT about Venus and Serena.

All I'm doing is congratulating Vivi and Paola.



then why did you bring them up?

They played a much better *doubles* match than the Williams sisters did, in the end they were just overpowered.


For the record I think the williams sisters should have been given a wc and no seeding. I think its better just to randomly put them in the draw.

Bright Red
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:04 AM
There was a lot of misinformation flying around. I do recall the underdog comment. Well I like Paola and Vivi, and I understand why they might feel slighted. But regardless of who said it, the team gets credit for the comment in the minds of most. Right or wrong, that's just the reality.

But in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter. V & P are still tops in doubles according to rankings, and they just raked in a bunch of money by making it to the finals. I think the fallout will be that they won't complain about seedings in the future--> it's too trivial.

Hurley
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:07 AM
Well, I was getting defensive because Vivi is one of my favorite players (Paola not so much except as Vivi's doubles partner) and I don't like that particular quote or perspective being attributed to her when there isn't any proof of it.

If she did complain...it wouldn't matter, because I see their point. It wouldn't make me like her less. I, however, don't think she deserves any of the shit they're getting for it, so I don't want her getting it.

Anyway...this will be forgotten by all but the pettiest of people come the French. :)

persond
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:12 AM
Originally posted by King Scotso of Aragon
Yes, they lost.

No, the score wasn't 1-6 1-6.

They played a much better *doubles* match than the Williams sisters did, in the end they were just overpowered.

Maybe next time people won't be so dismissive of their talent.

:( Is the above not your "original" post???? It's quite clear that you indeed did include the Williamses. Had you wanted this to be a Paola and Vivi rooting thread, then that's what you should have stated in the beginning.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

:) If you can't stand the heat, then you should stay out of the kitchen!!!!:p :p :p :p

Bright Red
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:13 AM
I think it's halfway forgotten already. If anyone saw the match, they saw 4 lovely ladies out there having a fun time--for the most part.

As far as the complaint goes, most people would have to agree that it's understandable. Most people probably don't take Paola's complaint as an attack against the talent of the Williams Team. It had to be said. But it set up the obvious expectation: you feel you should be seeded #1, then prove it. It's more drama than anything. No cause for hard feelings or rips.

Rocketta
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:14 AM
I seriously doubt Venus and Serena will play doubles at the French since the matches are a lot longer. So V & P will be #1 and probably win because they are a very talented doubles team.

Hurley
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:17 AM
None of that matters. What matters is that just because Paola said it doesn't mean Vivi said it. Gnh! I can't say it enough here. ;)

persond
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:19 AM
:) And that Williams/Williams play Suarez/Pascual first round:D :D Could be very interesting results!!!!:eek: :eek:

Dawn Marie
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:19 AM
Imho Vivi and Paola didn't PROVE themselves to me because I think they are a great team. Who said that V@S were going to destroy them 6/1 6/1? Maybe you overestimated team Williams or underestimated team V/P?

V/P are my second favorite doubles team. Whooooooooooo hooooooooooo.

Bright Red
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:21 AM
But I bet Vivi was thinking it...

j/k ;)

Those two are drinking champagne as we post.

"Topaz"
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:22 AM
I think the following happened.

Vivi/Paola proved themselves: ...
Venus/Serena proved themselves: ...
The Aussie Mgmt proved themselves: ...

They all proved different things. Just fill in the blanks.

anton
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:26 AM
Originally posted by King Scotso of Aragon


They played a much better *doubles* match than the Williams sisters did, in the end they were just overpowered.


the last point is what is important. like justin timberlake said, cry me a river... :sad:

I didnt see the match but
Venus and Serena won so that is all that counts
:worship:

Bright Red
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:28 AM
I'll take the challenge, TennisPower

Vivi and Paola proved that they are one talented team and masters of the lob. They're dedication to doubles earns them the rightful designation of #1.

Venus and Serena proved that they are just too talented to believe and can win the GS doubles whenever they feel like it. They can probably beat any doubles team on the planet.

AO Mgmt proved that if seeds are estimates of tournament performance then they got it right (for the last two teams at least): #1 seed won, #2 was runner up. If I had that level of prescience, then I wouldn't have to work.

spencercarlos
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:31 AM
Honestly Venus and Serena are really bad on doubles, they know nothing about doubles strategy, at least Vivi a Paola had a better one, but still neither team is a really good one.

I have seen better doubles teams, Arantxa/Jana, Jana/Lindsay, not to mention the great Gigi/Zvereva team, Hingis alone is a great doubles player.

I bet all of my money on this teams against any of the teams that played this final today.
Tactically the Williams are a DOUBLES disaster and Vivi and Paola are really good from the back of the court, but lack the enough doubles attacking at net style.

anton
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:31 AM
Originally posted by Bright Red
I'll take the challenge, TennisPower

Vivi and Paola proved that they are one talented team and masters of the lob. They're dedication to doubles earns them the rightful designation of #1.



Venus and Serena beat them so how are you still saying this? :confused:

tennisIlove09
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:31 AM
Congrats Vivi/Ruano-Pascual!!

4 straight finals...and the only team to take a set off the Williams' this event!!

spencercarlos
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:33 AM
I forgot to mention the key for Williams sisters win today was Serena coming to the net a little bit more at the end, and returning a lot better, and of course the power of the serve helped them a lot as well. But tactically :sad: :sad:

Bright Red
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:33 AM
anton

It's because of their dedication (they play more doubles matches, play very well, and earn ranking points). I feel the same way about Serena deserving #1 singles rank.

irma
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:34 AM
are we still discussing the seedings? lol;)

josemanuel
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:37 AM
Paola and Vivi played an excellent match. The were overpowered and it was shown at the end.
I donīt like to talk about the problem of the seeding cause it doesnīt really matter. But I really want to know what Mary Joe or others said about it. I read here some things but I want to know what she said exactly.
Perhaps this comment will be a bit rude, but Venus did some BIG mistakes that are not common according to her ranking.
Sheīs a top player and probably the best in the world with Serena, but there were some smashes that I didnt like and honestly they were horrible.
Sorry to all Venusīs fans but itīs the truth
Finally: Good Poli and Vivi (excellent match)

anton
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:37 AM
Originally posted by Bright Red
anton

It's because of their dedication (they play more doubles matches, play very well, and earn ranking points). I feel the same way about Serena deserving #1 singles rank.

If they cant beat Venus and Serena then they are not the best. Venus and Serena are the best.

Just as I like Venus but if she cant beat Serena then Serena is the best. It is simple!!

They lost! :p

"Topaz"
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:39 AM
BR, Right on!

Anton, you can be #1 and still lose a GS, you know.

irma
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:43 AM
I think anton is right

you didn't prove you are the best when you lost!

anton
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:43 AM
just because you are #1 that does not mean you are the best. see Martina Hingis and Jennifer capraiti who "worked" the rankings to stay there.

I'm just sick of people on this board who say Venus "overpowered" whoever. It does not matter how she won. Arantxa Sanchez hit 1,000 moonballs and a win is a win.

Hurley
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:44 AM
Anton, they've made the finals of all four majors. That adds up to an indisputable #1 ranking.

If V&S want to play more doubles and beat V&P, they can make a claim to that ranking, but right now V&P play more and win more.

anton
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:44 AM
Originally posted by irma
I think anton is right

you didn't prove you are the best when you lost!

thanks irma!

if vivi-paola were the best to me they would have closed out the match but they didnt when they were up 6-4, 3-1

Bright Red
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:45 AM
anton

I honestly don't know enough about doubles to say who's the best, and they haven't played enough for me to say (2-1 Williams lead the H2H). All I know is that both teams had some incredible moments out there tonight.

Hurley
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:45 AM
That's like saying this:

Venus beats Serena in the final of AO and Wimbledon.

Venus doesn't play FO and USO, and Serena wins them.

So Venus should be #1? I think not.

You gotta PLAY. :)

irma
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:47 AM
6 grand slams out of how many played 7, 8?

proves something to me;)

and the rest so much better but venus and serena only overpower them?

please :rolleyes:

anton
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:47 AM
Originally posted by Hurley
Anton, they've made the finals of all four majors. That adds up to an indisputable #1 ranking.

If V&S want to play more doubles and beat V&P, they can make a claim to that ranking, but right now V&P play more and win more.

being ranked #1 doesnt mean you are the best!
Was Thomas Muster the best after he got to the top after winning so many clay matches?? They lost to Venus-Serena. the better team won. And when does making the finals mean you are the best?

Venus made all four singles finals but is she the best? NO. Serena is.

tennisIlove09
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:47 AM
Originally posted by anton
If they cant beat Venus and Serena then they are not the best. Venus and Serena are the best.

Just as I like Venus but if she cant beat Serena then Serena is the best. It is simple!!

They lost! :p

They may be the best, but have the played the events, got the points to get the ranking to be OFFICIALLY the best? No. Vivi and Paola are the *best* dubs players in the world. They have the ranking to prove it.

Same agruement was made for Hingis during the 2000 year when Venus was clearly the best female player. And 2001.

Hurley
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:48 AM
Anton, that was BR's point: that they earned and will keep their #1 ranking. You disputed that but now you just said it! Make up your mind, bud. ;)

Bright Red
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:49 AM
It's finally beginning to dawn on me that I'm quite a controversial poster.

Hurley
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:50 AM
Not to mention sexy.

anton
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:50 AM
Venus and Serena also won the gold in the olympics. I personally think it is much more impressive that 2 people who dont play togehter much at all can beat 2 people who always play togehter.

tennisIlove09
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:52 AM
Hurley: I don't think we are going to get anywhere fast with Anton

Hurley
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:53 AM
Anton...that was over two years ago! The only point that was made was that Vivi and Paola proved they earned their #1 ranking, and when you have W W F F and your nearest competition has W W DNP DNP...well, there you have it.

Anyway...Venus and Serena "always play together" as well...just not as often.

When V&S win the French '03 and the ratio shifts from 2:2 to 3:1, then we'll talk, but right now, it's clear who has earned the #1 ranking. :)

anton
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:53 AM
well I think vivi-paola would rather have the AO title than be ranked #1. That didnt help them against Venus and Serena who were seeded #1.

AO was right vivi-paola are #2.

Bright Red
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:53 AM
LOL! Hurley. So posters do read our "location".

Hurley
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:55 AM
Originally posted by anton
AO was right vivi-paola are #2.

No, they lost one match. You can look at the rankings on Monday, though, and see if you end up correct. ;)

anton
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:56 AM
Originally posted by Hurley
Anton...that was over two years ago! The only point that was made was that Vivi and Paola proved they earned their #1 ranking, and when you have W W F F and your nearest competition has W W DNP DNP...well, there you have it.

Anyway...Venus and Serena "always play together" as well...just not as often.

When V&S win the French '03 and the ratio shifts from 2:2 to 3:1, then we'll talk, but right now, it's clear who has earned the #1 ranking. :)

I think mot reasonable people know who is the best. Also this team WON tonight.

vivi-paola, like Brandy said, almost doesnt count :kiss:

Hurley
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:57 AM
Originally posted by Bright Red
Vivi and Paola proved that they are one talented team and masters of the lob. They're dedication to doubles earns them the rightful designation of #1.

This is the quote you took exception to, Anton. Nowhere does it say V&P are the "best." It says they're #1. They are, officially. You even said it yourself.

The only thing erroneous in that quote is the use of "they're" instead of "their." ;) And that's pretty much that.

tennisIlove09
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:59 AM
Anton: look at it this way

How many dubs titles do Venus/Serena have in the last 52 weeks?

2 [both Slams]

How many do Vivi/Paola have?

I believe they won 7 titles last year. So 7. [2 Slams]


Venus Serena: 2 Slams; 0 other titles
Vivi/Paola: 2 Slams; 5 other titles

Clearly Vivi/Paola are the top dubs team.

Hurley
Jan 24th, 2003, 07:01 AM
I think everyone is in agreement that Venus and Serena were too good today, and that they will beat Vivi and Paola more often than lose to them. They are arguably a better team.

That and a buck fifty will get you a cup of black coffee; Vivi and Paola are #1 and neither Anton nor anyone else can take it away from them. :)

spencercarlos
Jan 24th, 2003, 07:02 AM
About the seeding thing.

Its just all about having a (1) beside your name, but once they face the sisters theyīll lose.

Would have been worse if they were not seeded and face them in round one.

Remember 2001 Australian Stubbs/Lisa vs Hingis/Seles in round one :o.

They got a good seeded i mean based on their performance at Grand Slams, they play and win them. Last loss i can remember was 2001 Usopen Chanda/Callens. But since 1999 they have been a succesful team. 6 grand slams wins.

Bright Red
Jan 24th, 2003, 07:03 AM
Also note that it didn't say they aren't the best either. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't want to take anything away from Williams X 2 or V & P. They gave us a good show, and both teams should be congratulated.

anton
Jan 24th, 2003, 07:04 AM
simply the best!
http://www.venustennis.com/ov10b.jpg

Hurley
Jan 24th, 2003, 07:06 AM
Nice picture from a 2000 event that didn't count for ranking points, Anton. :p

Hurley
Jan 24th, 2003, 07:08 AM
Oh, I'm not saying V&S don't deserve to be seeded. They do (I would have put them 3 or 4, but that's beside the point). But they don't deserve to be ranked ahead of V&P. They hold the same number of majors, while V&P have two additional runner-up performances in majors and 7 WTA titles over the last 52 weeks.

Though V&S were better today and at Wimbledon, they can't make a claim to being ranked ahead of them if they don't have a comparable record.

spencercarlos
Jan 24th, 2003, 07:11 AM
Originally posted by Hurley
Nice picture from a 2000 event that didn't count for ranking points, Anton. :p

It does not count for the ranking, and lol you think they care a lot about ranking? How about the prestige of being an olimpic champion?

And by the way I think they look more to win the big ones rather than being number one. That was Hingisīs mistake taking care of her ranking instead of the most important things. Which is to play well on the big events. If that happens your good ranking comes altogether.

HellanSpicen
Jan 24th, 2003, 07:13 AM
If you guys want Venus and Serena to not have the number one slot. Well if they weren't then they will be a qualifier. Which means they would of face the number 1 doubles team in the first round. Which would of meant the number one doubles team wouldn't of made the finals. Vivi/Pali, they had the choice to either go out in the first round or make it to the finals. They should be happy they let them be number 1. Those girls need to stop complaining. Thier a better doubles team, because they play together more. People don't like the Williams team cause they
overpower opponents. Well isn't that they same thing they say about thier singles games also. Leave those girls alone. Let the winners win and if you lose your just not good enough. I guess it's true when your on top people hate you, but when your not people start to like you. When Steffi was dominating very few people liked her also. Now everyone loves her. Please!!!! Haters!!!

Hurley
Jan 24th, 2003, 07:16 AM
Originally posted by petosp
It does not count for the ranking, and lol you think they care a lot about ranking? How about the prestige of being an olimpic champion?

And by the way I think they look more to win the big ones rather than being number one. That was Hingisīs mistake taking care of her ranking instead of the most important things. Which is to play well on the big events. If that happens your good ranking comes altogether.

And when they do, at all of them, like Vivi and Paola have, maybe they'll be #1.

I don't care what they think is more important. I would rather have the titles and the Olympic gold than the ranking myself. That doesn't refute their position at #1, which is indisputable, and the only thing I've discussed.

anton
Jan 24th, 2003, 07:16 AM
this thread to me is like Anna Kournikova saying AFTER she lost to Venus that "im a little bit better than her." Im not going to waste any more time in here.

Bright Red
Jan 24th, 2003, 07:19 AM
That there's a debate on this topic is not surprising. The Williams create a huge complication when it comes to doubles, and this is at the heart of the seeding controversy. For the most part, whenever Team Williams play, they win. The ESPN commentators felt that Team Williams would win, and even went as far as to call V & P the underdogs. And Williams win the biggest events to boot. So it's hard not to say they are the best.

tennisIlove09
Jan 24th, 2003, 07:19 AM
Originally posted by HellanSpicen
If you guys want Venus and Serena to not have the number one slot. Well if they weren't then they will be a qualifier. Which means they would of face the number 1 doubles team in the first round. Which would of meant the number one doubles team wouldn't of made the finals. Vivi/Pali, they had the choice to either go out in the first round or make it to the finals. They should be happy they let them be number 1. Those girls need to stop complaining. Thier a better doubles team, because they play together more. People don't like the Williams team cause they
overpower opponents. Well isn't that they same thing they say about thier singles games also. Leave those girls alone. Let the winners win and if you lose your just not good enough. I guess it's true when your on top people hate you, but when your not people start to like you. When Steffi was dominating very few people liked her also. Now everyone loves her. Please!!!! Haters!!!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: the top seeds don't always get qualifers. There is no way of knowing where Venus/Serena would have been in the draw if they weren't seeded.

Anton: Venus/Serena won a title. That doesn't make them the best. If Venus beats Serena tomorrow, does that make Venus better? Serena has 3 Slams, to Venus 1. Same thing in dubs.

Some fans just can't see past their favorites, and it's sort of sad and scary :)

anton
Jan 24th, 2003, 07:24 AM
tennisilove09, im not posting in this thread anymore.sorry.

tennisIlove09
Jan 24th, 2003, 07:26 AM
Originally posted by anton
tennisilove09, im not posting in this thread anymore.sorry.

funny it looks like you just did ;)

Hurley
Jan 24th, 2003, 07:27 AM
Originally posted by tennisIlove09
Anton: Venus/Serena won a title. That doesn't make them the best. If Venus beats Serena tomorrow, does that make Venus better? Serena has 3 Slams, to Venus 1. Same thing in dubs.


It makes her better on THAT DAY. Much as V&S were better today.

Does it make her #1? Hell no!

Larrybid
Jan 24th, 2003, 08:00 AM
Couple of thoughts:

Though one could apreciate their point of view, the difference in ranking between #1 and #2 is not worth complaining about publically. I beleive that was the point Mary Carillo was making on her commentary. Once you claim that you are underseeded and, by implication, V&S are overseeded the pressure is on you to back it up. Why put that kind of pressure on yourself? Its like the goofs that go around gauranteeing victorys. You put unnnecesary presure on you and your teamates.

Personally, I like the fact that tournaments use decretion in the matter of seeding. I love the fact that Wimby refuses to just go along with the raking when seeding it tournamnt. I feel this way partly because I have little respect for the ranking system but mostly because i have a high regaurd for using common sense over formulas.

The OZ directors seeded V&S #1 because regaurdless of how much they play, they have played enough to recognize that when they do play they beat all comers. The second reason they were seeded #1 was as a reward for playing doubles in the first place. Does anyone not doubt it was good for the tournament to get the best players ini the world to play more, and fill more seats? As for the question of fairness, consider that anywhere they were seeded they would be bumping somebody in line. Why do V&S think that only they should not to be bumped in line?

Forget worrying about hurt feelings - Just seed them where common sense and past history suggest they should be seeded - #1. In the end, V& S got their chance to prove the officials wrong. It was a judgement call ( made with the interest of the tournmant as a whole) that was proven correct.

tennischick
Jan 24th, 2003, 11:51 AM
i enjoyed this match. let's get that out of the way. i think that both teams acquitted themselves well.

but at the end of the day, i realised once again that power wins over tactics and strategy any day. the only "strategy" needed in the power game is to keep the ball in the court. that's it. and it works.

Paola and Viv were definitely the better doubles tacticians. so V & S raised the power level of heir game, kept the balls in the court, and won.

Cybelle said earlier that the bettter players won over the better team. i'll amend that to say that the harder-hitting players won over the better playing team.

that's the new face of tennis folks. other players have to find a way to counter it.

Chance
Jan 24th, 2003, 01:10 PM
yeah I agree with petosp Vee and Rena were playing like it was a singles match - doubles strategy wasn't very evident. Paola and VivI had Venus and Serena on the ropes most of the the match but then Vee and Rena returned bettered and served harder.

Good job Paola and Vivi

Congratulations Venus and Serena.

treufreund
Jan 24th, 2003, 01:13 PM
People need to be REAL

1) Williams won; they are the (slightly)better team

2) Vivi and Paola are classy and IF they complained at all, they did it the right way and were not rude to anyone at all. You might want to read their interviews if you don't believe it.

3) Everybody knows that the Williams are tough to beat in doubles and I feel they deserved the special ranking. I can also understand the feelings however of players who "work the ranking system" by CONSISTENTLY WINNING MATCHES who don't get the proper respect they deserve.

4) Pam Shriver is a hateful, jaded, jealous loser. She takes potshots at Martina Hingis, Steffi Graf, the Williams, all non-Americans except for Hantuchova (her flavor of the month) and Kim Clijsters (because who does not love her). She has never had credibility.

5) Williams fans who are honest know that POWER is the decisive factor in the Williams game. It's not POLITICALLY CORRECT to say so but Gaby Sabatini said and the masses of tennis fans feel it in their bones. We see how many points the Williams win OVER AND OVER based on power despite the opponents using the right tactics. Over and over we hear how the opponent did everything right but that they just got overpowered on that point. It's just the way it is and the other girls are going to have to lift weights, get faster, etc because even though many of them play better tennis technically they just are not ready to compensate for the athletic differential.

6) The williams have also worked hard and deserve where they are but their fans also need to stop being defensive about the comments about the muscle and athleticism and overpowering because ALL of their opponents cite this as the main difference.

DD
Jan 24th, 2003, 01:19 PM
treufreund

well said.

btw the williams also play tactical just that some players are better tactically and the williams uses their power to counter it. they stop playing all powergame longtime ago.

griffin
Jan 24th, 2003, 01:20 PM
If you you have the ability, with one shot, to put a ball where your opponent can't return it (due to placement/speed/whatever), what kind of "strategy" is it to hit the ball so that they can retunr it? To give them a chance to put the ball where YOU can't return it?

Is that strategy or stupidity? No truly smart player is going to use three shots (and provide 3 opportunities for error) where one will do.

/rant

Congratualtions to all four women, it sounds like it was a great match.

Sam L
Jan 24th, 2003, 01:22 PM
DD

well said.

Though it's only doubles that's true. They win in singles because of tactical tennis not power (except for the serves).

Experimentee
Jan 24th, 2003, 01:33 PM
Well since we're talking about the seeding here i might as well say that if the Williams were unseeded the seeded players who had to play them would be complaining about them not being seeded! I dont think anyone would want to draw an unseeded Williams sisters team, and it would be unfair if Vivi/Paola had to play them in the first round instead of the final. So i think the seeding was correct.
On the second point, a main feature of the Williams sisters game has always been power and athleticism, but its also true that they use finesse shots a lot too. That final match wasnt the best example as they werent playing well then, but i've seen them do many touch shots and lobs etc, so its untrue to say they always overpower their opponents because they do have tactics like every other team.

ARealVenusFan
Jan 24th, 2003, 02:12 PM
posted by LucasArg:As I said before, the seeding thing is not fair, but that's something not really important here. Paola and Vivi showed they can play at the highest level together.

Had the officials seated V&S anywhere else V&P might have had to meet them in an earlier round and not gotten to the finals.

Let the RACKETS do the deciding of the #1 Seed.

spokenword73
Jan 24th, 2003, 02:31 PM
Congrats to all four Vivi, Paola, Serena and Venus! They all did a fine job, although I don't understand what Vivi and Paola were laughing about all the time. Even after one of them hit Venus, they were cracking up. I guess it wasn't intentiional, though.;)

Volcana
Jan 24th, 2003, 02:31 PM
If a team should be favored to win against any opponent on any surface then they play the best doubles. Vivi/Paola proved that they definitely are the 2nd best doubles team on the tour.

The players, I note, have no trouble acknowledging that the Williams sisters are the best doubles team, or that they play doubles well. (read the post-match interviews) The FANS seem to be the ones with problems

Scotso
Jan 24th, 2003, 02:33 PM
oh I give up.

ruanofan
Jan 24th, 2003, 03:44 PM
Congrats to Vivi and Paola, great tournament and I hope at the French Open see you in the final against the Williams sister...and I think Vivi & Paola will win!

Gallofa
Jan 24th, 2003, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by King Scotso of Aragon
oh I give up.
Hehehe you lasted longer than I did ;) well, for whatever it's worth, you might not have convinced anyone, but I hear what you are trying to say and you have my respect.

BrianII
Jan 24th, 2003, 03:53 PM
Does anybody really think that Paes and Navratilova,( paes one of the smallest players on the tour and Martina almost old enough to be Dani's grandma ) have more fire power than Hantuchova Ullyet ...oh and i forgot the Woodies were huge power players with massive serves just like Eltingh and Haarhuis and thats why they must have won all those doubles titles .......ANy good doubles team will totally dismantle a a couple of power players who can't play doubles ...if they can't then maybe they are not a good doubles team period. Also a team that has played about 20 + tournaments in the past 52 weeks,
Facing a team that has played 2 together and one having played 2 with other partners.....simply has no excuse for losing one wonders what the score would be if the williams had played 20 tournaments and their opponents only 2 ..scary thought . Teachers always taught us that pratice makes perfect when we were young,...stupid teachers never watched womens tennis or they would have known better.

Cam'ron Giles
Jan 24th, 2003, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by King Scotso of Aragon
oh I give up.

Scotty, you gave up before but I see your back...:wavey:

Serendy Willick
Jan 24th, 2003, 04:12 PM
Paola and Virgina deserved the top seed. This wouldnt have occurred in the first place if it wasnt for the WHINERS that complained in 2001 when the Willis won the doubles title the first time as an unseeded team. People then moaned and cried because they were meeting (and beating) the top doubles teams in the first and second round. The Willis arent trying to take over anyones turf or anything like that. I certainly understand Paola and Virginas point , but they need to take it up with the tournement director.

griffin
Jan 24th, 2003, 04:25 PM
Right, but just as the Willis aren't trying to take over anyone's turf, no one (ok, no one but a few extremists) are trying to blame V & S for the decision of the tournament officials, and that includes Paola.

CC
Jan 24th, 2003, 04:28 PM
At the beginning of the match Pam and Mary C. referred to Virginia as "Miss Crabby" more than once too. It was very bold of them. I found it funny Virginia and Paula were laughing so much and when Virginia received a ball to the head our resident clown said, "If she's still laughs after getting hit in the head, then something is wrong."

griffin
Jan 24th, 2003, 04:30 PM
"Miss Crabby"?

Talk about bias in commentators.

Cybelle Darkholme
Jan 24th, 2003, 04:35 PM
It's really so tired and ridiculous to say power beats tactics. Sorry but lucic is a power player and where is she in the rankings? POWER MEANS NOTHING WITHOUT TIMING AND ACCURACY. If you cannot time hitting the ball perfectly and accurately then youre power means nothing, just ask lucic!

P and V are a great team, they have an uncanny gift for tactics and knowing the court and each other. The williams sisters have the same but not to the same degree.

Did you not notice that P and V were winning for a set and a half? Were not V and S playing a power game for a set and a half? But they were losing until they cut the errors. Even then the lobs still did damage.

Crazy Canuck
Jan 24th, 2003, 04:41 PM
Some of this discussion sounds oddly like the Venus-Hingis debate of 2000 ;)

You know - where Venus was clearly the better player, but didnt' play enough that year to be number one :o

griffin
Jan 24th, 2003, 04:46 PM
Funny, I thought I was smelling the same old powever vs. "real" tennis hooey.

Plus ca change....

Caz
Jan 24th, 2003, 04:51 PM
Vivi was called "Miss. Crabby" and a whiner?!?! ROTFL!!!! Thanks to Gallofa and our other Spanish friends with whom we go to watch tournaments, I've had the pleasure of watching Vivi play and speaking to her since Roland Garros 2000 when her singles ranking had dropped so low she wasn't even able to play in the singles competition. I xan honestly say have never met such a sweet, happy, even tempered person in my life!! I quickly became a fan because she is just such a thoroughly nice person, so from my experience those comments are so untrue they're almost funny!!!

Anyway, I refuse to get into the seeding debate again, 'cos last time I felt like I was banging my head against a brick wall and I don't even want to go there again! :rolleyes:

All I have to say is congrats. to Vivi and Paola for reaching their first ever Australian Open final and playing such a great match last night!! Best of luck for the rest of the season!!Vamos!! :bounce: :bounce:

Crazy Canuck
Jan 24th, 2003, 04:51 PM
Venus vs Hingis debates, power vs "real" tennis debates - same difference :o

Lots of hooey :o

RAA
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by griffin
If you you have the ability, with one shot, to put a ball where your opponent can't return it (due to placement/speed/whatever), what kind of "strategy" is it to hit the ball so that they can retunr it? To give them a chance to put the ball where YOU can't return it?

Is that strategy or stupidity? No truly smart player is going to use three shots (and provide 3 opportunities for error) where one will do.



clearly its *doubles strategy* that Venus and Serena have yet to grasp...:rolleyes:
I hope they can overcome their lack of good doubles strategy to beat the top doubles team in the world!
oh whoops, has that already happened?? sorry, must be a time zone thing.....
;)

Cybelle Darkholme
Mar 20th, 2003, 06:35 PM
this was still a great doubles match by two very different but great doubles teams.