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Simplify
Jan 23rd, 2003, 08:51 PM
choking?:confused:

I've been reading some of the responses to the "Kim Choked" threads, and am a little confused. Obviously, some say she flat out choked, while others say she didn't choke, she just got nervous (even though she says she didn't get nervous). Some have even said it wasn't a choke because Serena raised the level of her play. So, again I ask, how do YOU define it?

Car Key Boi
Jan 23rd, 2003, 08:58 PM
to lose one's nerve

to be presented with an opportunity, but yuo fail to take it because yuor nerves, or fear, overcomes yuo and affects yuor physical performance

the British have a lovely phrase for it

"bottle job" :)

ARealVenusFan
Jan 23rd, 2003, 08:59 PM
Personally, I define "Chocking" in the athletic form of the word as:

Letting your guard down; not playing in the same high level as previously.

ys
Jan 23rd, 2003, 09:02 PM
Uncharacteristic brain malfunction caused by realising of extreme closeness of the goal.

tennischick
Jan 23rd, 2003, 10:49 PM
choking vs panicking. the definition.

you panic when you don't have a clue what to do and start hitting out wildly. like Anna. instead of stopping and thinking thru your shots, you stop thinking and start flailing. like Anna.

you choke when you know exactly what to to do but start thinking too much about how to do it. like Kim. this occurs bec you become overwhelmed by the hugeness of the moment. as a result you become too conscious of what you have to do and instead of functiong on automatic pilot (because you are an expert and have done it a gazillion times before), you start overthinking and overanalysing and next thing you know you become paralysed by anxiety. like Kim.

Kart
Jan 23rd, 2003, 11:07 PM
Semifinals of Key Biscayne 1995 :(.

Volcana
Jan 23rd, 2003, 11:27 PM
agree with tennischick

BK4ever
Jan 23rd, 2003, 11:32 PM
I am one of those posters who said that she didnt choke. I agree with "tennischicks" definition, but I'm still not sure which category Kim fits into. I don't think she paniced, but I also don't think she did anything different in that trouble period than she had done all match.

She played passive thru out the match and she kept playing passive while Serena found her aggression.

On principle it looks like a choke job, but I'm still not sure that it was.

Any other perspectives :confused:

Sam L
Jan 23rd, 2003, 11:34 PM
IMHO Kim didn't choke in this match.

Choking is when a player's playing at a level so high that they should be winning, were winning, but then when it came for the time to close out the match they folded (started making errors, not playing the right shots etc...)

Kim played the same tennis that she did the entire match IMO, Serena just stopped making errors and won. So NO choke.

Hingis last year was a little choke, Jen also stopped making errors but Hingis also stopped been aggressive.

True choking imo though was Novotna in 93 Wimbledon, she just didn't do anything right, another player stepped on court after she lead 4-1. That's choking.

TommyH
Jan 23rd, 2003, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by Sam L
IMHO Kim didn't choke in this match.

Kim played the same tennis that she did the entire match IMO, Serena just stopped making errors and won. So NO choke.


so you believe that serena at her best can beat kim 6-0????? because there you say that kim continued to play at the same level (which was a phenominal level), but serena simply raised her level???

IMO Kim clearly choked. To up 5-1 and lose 7-5, there has to be a degree of choking involved. To what degree- i dont know, obviously serena raised her level also, but kim still choked. :eek:

leslie
Jan 23rd, 2003, 11:43 PM
Kim was waiting for Serena to make errors to win the match. What I notice is that most of these players do not know how to switch gears. Serena and Venus can switch gears go into another mode but Kim does not have another gear to go into they all wait for the W/S to make errors. When Serena stared playing perfect in the last couple of points Kim did not know what to do. I will bet you the next time Serena plays Kim it will not be like this semi -final Serena will finish her off in two sets.

tennischick
Jan 24th, 2003, 02:46 AM
Originally posted by Sam L
IMHO Kim didn't choke in this match.

True choking imo though was Novotna in 93 Wimbledon, she just didn't do anything right, another player stepped on court after she lead 4-1. That's choking.

there is no difference between Novotna's and Kim's choking experiences. in both cases, both players knew precisely what they had to do bec they had done it many many times before. and in both cases they became hyperaware of what was at stake, and that increased awareness made them switch off off automatic mode and start thinking about what to do. next thing you know, Kim couldn't even serve the ball into the court -- and there is no question that she does know how to serve!

Kim didn't panic. you can only panic when you don't have a freaking clue what to do. attend any Junior tourny and you will see panicking all over the place. poor babies. (of course anxious parents only make it worse!)

when you choke, things that you could formerly do in your sleep with both hands tied behind your back, suddenly become at first difficult and then impossible to execute. that is what defines choking. the actual outcome of the match is irrelevant.

Novotna cried and had to be comforted by the Duchess of Windsor. Kim didn't cry but she looked as scared as a doe caught in headlights. she looked downright terrified out there. however the difference in emotional respinse doesn't change the nature of the experience. they both choked. and i say that with kindness bec it's no fun being out there feeling that way.

and just so you know, i actually teach this stuff so i happen to know whereof i speak...;) ;)

_Andy_
Jan 24th, 2003, 02:51 AM
Joy, haha

Choking for me is when you don't capitalize on a significantly distinct advantage

Hidden Stillness
Jan 24th, 2003, 03:42 AM
http://www.gladwell.com/2000/2000_08_21_a_choking.htm

go hingis
Jan 24th, 2003, 04:12 AM
When I want someone to win, watching is bad enough, I can't imagine how hard it would be if I was playing.

fammmmedspin
Jan 24th, 2003, 05:39 AM
Kim hit one or two balls less aggressively and couldn't contain Serena's aggression which meant Serena gained the initiative. . Not sure that is a choke - no one can maintain intensity for ever - Graf couldn't, even Seles doesn't. If the match hadn't been lengthened by the time out the last game might well have been played while Kim was on and Serena was off. If Serena had missed any of the high risk shots Kim would have won.

She then double double faulted as the consequence sunk in that she was back on level pegging with an increasingly aggressive Serena The double faults might be significant but few players could not help but react to the reversal in the score.

Kim may have reacted to Serena who didn't seem to realise she was going to lose and just hit harder and with more risk. Its pretty unusual - hardly surprising if Kim was surprised. She would make a nonsense of many psychology books if she did not react to such a reversal of events. That I think is a difference with Jana. There has to be something odd about a choke I think - it has to be an overblown or unexpected reaction to something that isn't explicable by the run of play? Jana reacted to far less from Graf - one amazing forehand whistling over the net was enough for Jana.

If you just define a choke as responding to some mental stress I think you have to ask what stress. Both Kim and Jana probably had a lot of mental baggage - but Kim's may have been more limited to the match. Jana was winning but hit a brick wall for no obvious reason apart from she was winning. Kim was crowd favourite and, I suspect, player favourite, , she was winning decisively. After the time out, Serena had a reason to lose, a story for the interview and a hopeless situation, and much less pressure. Kim gained more pressure to win against a sick player, reacted to the crowd more when it got involved and then had to face the shock and the doubts as her lead melted. Kim had a far higher hurdle to jump after the time out - not surprising if it had a slight effect on her play.

"Topaz"
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:53 AM
Just to add to what has been said before:

A Choke is ... when you push your shots instead of hitting thru the ball.

A Choke is ... frozen feet.

A Choke is ... the simplest shot in your arsenal gone all wrong.

A Choke is ... a ball into the net for no reason whatsoever.

A Choke is ... your best shot way out of the lines and I mean waaaaay out.

A Choke is ... killing your opponent until the very moment you serve for your win, then blowing every game until they catch up.

A Choke is ... worrying about "choking".


PS
BTW, the above is from a 9-month old post. Do you see any similarities?

Uxobi
Jan 24th, 2003, 06:57 AM
a tennis player failing to convert a mp when leading 5-1 in the final set.

sartrista7
Jan 24th, 2003, 04:32 PM
completely agree with tennischick. I don't know what happened to Kim cos I didn't see the match (damn deadlines) but *no* world no 3 should *ever* lose a 5-1 lead if she plays on the same level.

Originally posted by tennischick
Novotna cried and had to be comforted by the Duchess of Windsor.

Duchess of Kent actually, no such thing as the Duchess of Windsor ;)

VS Fan
Jan 24th, 2003, 04:50 PM
I would say that Kim choked.

The injury timeout, however had little effect.
Kim was leading 2-1 at that time.
Kim quickly WON the next three games to go up 5-1.

Serena then won the next SIX games, saving TWO match points in the process.

Kim needed only ONE of the first FOUR of those games to win.
CHOKE!

Serendy Willick
Jan 24th, 2003, 04:51 PM
I saw the match and I dont think Kim Choked. Serena simply reduced the golden platter of UFEs that she was handing Kim throught the entire match. Serena saved both of those match points on a winner and a forced error. Yes, Kim did bomb pretty badly with the two straight double faults when she served for it again at 5-4, but if I remember correctly she gained the points back off a Serena error and a great net volley. It was then 30-30 and Kim was still very much in the position to win the match. Then Serena hits a great forehand for break point and gets the error to get the break back. That IMO isnt choking.