How would Azarenka have matched up against Venus?

I genuinely think this match-up would be a LOT more fruitful for Azarenka than one against Henin.

As we all know, Peak Venus's game was ALL about raw power, and she didn't typically mix up the placement of her shots that much -- imo, this would play into Azarenka's hands, because, as we discussed in that thread a few weeks ago, Azarenka really is GREAT at scooping back even the most POWERFUL shots that land within her reach -- we all know Venus wouldn't be able to employ the gameplan Serena does when she plays Azarenka of using more crosscourt angles and really yanking Azarenka side-to-side and exposing her still-surprisingly-mediocre movement.

Obviously Venus on her very BEST days would win, if she was really feeling the ball and landing all her shots, but imo, even in Venus's best seasons of 2000-01, Azarenka would have won her fair share of matches against her, because Venus even at 70% probably would've lost to her. If she was just a little bit off, then I could just see the matches playing out like the Azarenka-vs.-subpar Sharapova matches -- Venus blasting the ball down the middle of the court, Azarenka getting back all of Venus's shots to a decent length, Venus getting frustrated that even her most powerful of shots aren't getting the job done, until she surrenders a UE.

For me, what's instructive is their 2010 Dubai match -- this is ALWAYS cited as one of Venus's best matches of recent years, and yet, even as exceptionally well as Venus played, a well-below-peak Azarenka made it a real contest:

DpkRM4NcygI

Discuss.

It would be in Azarenka's favour on slow HCs for sure even tho Venus would win something there too.However i tend to believe that Venus would be able to find a way to beat Vika on a consistent basis despite that you decribed Venus' game of not mixing the power well enough like Serena.Azarenka might be a great pace absorber but Venus' would still be i think a bit too much to handle.That doesn't mean they would not have competitve matches on all types of HCs and clay.(Grass is obvious). :)

Venus on grass, decoturf and even clay would have beaten her pretty easy. Azarenka on plexipave /plexicushion/ laykold , on all this slow shit will be competitive

Venus, everywhere, easily,

Venus, everywhere, easily,

Even though it was anything but easy in their last match, when Venus was by any measure much closer to her peak than Azarenka?

Even though it was anything but easy in their last match, when Venus was by any measure much closer to her peak than Azarenka?

I stand by what I wrote. And '10 Venus was not peak Venus.

It's about matchups and Venus would eat Azarenka for breakfast, lunch, and dinner - just like she has in their matches.

cannot wait to see these 2 play in 2013 it could be a real site to see, both playing well. It could be one of the matches of the year. Bring it on!

cannot wait to see these 2 play in 2013 it could be a real site to see, both playing well. It could be one of the matches of the year. Bring it on!


I don't think Venus will make it far enough to even meet Vika but that's just my personal opinion...

First of all, ROTF @ the notion that 2010 Venus was closer to her peak than Azarenka was to hers.
Second, Venus had a full repertoire of shots to wipe the floor clean with Azarenka.

If we're talking about peaks, it's absolutely no contest on all surfaces except rebound ace, where it would be tight with Venus still winning.
The only shot of Venus that could have broken down even at her peak, was her FH, which was still ferocious. Unfortunately, Azarenka's FH is nothing to write home about either.
Venus only ever had trouble with players who had a good offensive and defensive game. Davenport and Hingis were other players who also troubled Venus, but their games were something special (Davenport with the cleanest strokes ever and Hingis with her wily ways).

But that's the nature of life, the old will decline while the young will rise, so we will never really know.

It's baffling to see how people quickly forget just how good Venus really was back in the day.

http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/PRAISE_5c2adb_700320.jpg

The season has started.

Venus would be beat her by closing the net. :shrug:

I stand by what I wrote. And '10 Venus was not peak Venus.

:lol: Exactly. It's about 10 years away from her actual peak so uhh no I'd say Azarenka was closer.

Don't get me wrong though, Venus was in great form in 2010. Just mentally crippled.

And Venus would win over Azarenka in all surfaces including slow hard.

but imo, even in Venus's best seasons of 2000-01, Azarenka would have won her fair share of matches against her


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

:help:

The only surface the matches might be close are slow hard courts, like rebound ace or plexicushion. Even then Venus on her best day, like her 2000 Olympics or 2003 Australian Open form, would crush Azarenka, but she wasnt consistently in that form even in her prime on those courts. On clay, grass, decoturf, or carpet, she would spank Azarenka practically each time out.

Even though it was anything but easy in their last match, when Venus was by any measure much closer to her peak than Azarenka?

by any measure? how about the fact that venus was 2 years from her last slam, azarenka was 2 years from her 1st, there's one measure of the top of my head which contradicts you

even in Venus's best seasons of 2000-01, Azarenka would have won her fair share of matches against her

Stopped reading there.

I'm confused. A few days ago, when I said Venus's best non-grass matches since 2003 were her defeats to the Belgians at the US Open, I was hysterically shouted down by Venus fans and told that this Dubai match against Vika was her best match since 2003 -- by some of the very same people who now in this thread are saying Venus was nowhere remotely close to her peak form in this match. :scratch:

by any measure? how about the fact that venus was 2 years from her last slam, azarenka was 2 years from her 1st, there's one measure of the top of my head which contradicts you

In this match specifically. As said, this is by common consent one of Venus's best matches in the past 8 years, whereas for Azarenka, this was an unremarkable match in her worst season since 2008. And yet it was close.

Venus would win easily on grass and probably on Clay as well. We'd get great matches on HC tho, and Azarenka would probably win a few matches on slow HC.

I'm confused. A few days ago, when I said Venus's best non-grass matches since 2003 were her defeats to the Belgians at the US Open, I was hysterically shouted down by Venus fans and told that this Dubai match against Vika was her best match since 2003 -- by some of the very same people who now in this thread are saying Venus was nowhere remotely close to her peak form in this match. :scratch:



In this match specifically. As said, this is by common consent one of Venus's best matches in the past 8 years, whereas for Azarenka, this was an unremarkable match in her worst season since 2008. And yet it was close.

Oh my goodness. Talk about spinning things and incredible bias. This entire post is crap.

I genuinely think this match-up would be a LOT more fruitful for Azarenka than one against Henin.

As we all know, Peak Venus's game was ALL about raw power, and she didn't typically mix up the placement of her shots that much -- imo, this would play into Azarenka's hands, because, as we discussed in that thread a few weeks ago, Azarenka really is GREAT at scooping back even the most POWERFUL shots that land within her reach -- we all know Venus wouldn't be able to employ the gameplan Serena does when she plays Azarenka of using more crosscourt angles and really yanking Azarenka side-to-side and exposing her still-surprisingly-mediocre movement.

Obviously Venus on her very BEST days would win, if she was really feeling the ball and landing all her shots, but imo, even in Venus's best seasons of 2000-01, Azarenka would have won her fair share of matches against her, because Venus even at 70% probably would've lost to her. If she was just a little bit off, then I could just see the matches playing out like the Azarenka-vs.-subpar Sharapova matches -- Venus blasting the ball down the middle of the court, Azarenka getting back all of Venus's shots to a decent length, Venus getting frustrated that even her most powerful of shots aren't getting the job done, until she surrenders a UE.

For me, what's instructive is their 2010 Dubai match -- this is ALWAYS cited as one of Venus's best matches of recent years, and yet, even as exceptionally well as Venus played, a well-below-peak Azarenka made it a real contest:

DpkRM4NcygI

Discuss.

Aza did not look " well-below-peak " to me.

Venus of 2008 and before would beat THIS Azarenka on all surfaces except the slowest harcourts.

Her overall game is too explosive and athletic for Azarenka to handle on fast surfaces, and despite the OP correctly mentioning her uncanny ability to deflect pace back, Venus' serve (which Azarenka has always found tougher to read and handle) would put too much pressure on Vika's own serve which can still be weak in pressure situations. On the slowest hardcourts Venus would be forced into too many shots and lose most times even in Peak mode but i think it'd still be close about 60/40 Azarenka.

On clay, despite it being an average surface for Venus, i think her general movement is so good that she manages to expose Azarenka's lack of great movement on the surface compared to hardcourts and she wins most of these encounters as well.

As others have suggested though could have made for a very interesting and high quality rivalry when both play well, and if the two meet this year i still hold out hope for a close fought match with Vika as clear favorite fighting to get her first win against Vee.

And yet it was close.

Close matches are ones where the opponent wins a set, or at least has a set point, or perhaps stays even until the end of the set in both sets. None of those things happened in this match. You're confusing "competitive" with "close".

I still can;t believe you guys are writing Venus off, she can STILL beat Azarenka! She had a decent 2012 and you have to look at the big picture, beginning of 2012 she was out of top 120, by end of 2012 she is 24 in the world. NEVER count Venus Williams out, she will be hungry for success and to win a slam, which she can do.

Dsanders, enough! How many Venus threads do you have to make :o

I am trying to think of a player similar to Azarenka who prime Venus had trouble with but I cant. Hingis is not similar at all to Azarenka really.

This isn't really a hypothetical question because they played at least twice as far as I can remember. :lol:

Good question. I think the slower the surface, the better Azarenka's chances get...as with anybody against Venus.
I don't think Azarenka retrieves well enough to beat Vee on faster surfaces.

:lol: And douchesanders keeps taking shots at Vee, it ain't even funny anymore.

And then they say we're the ones obsessed with MashaTasha?! What we DO know is how Azarenka matches up against MASHA...:lol:

Good question. I think the slower the surface, the better Azarenka's chances get...as with anybody against Venus.
I don't think Azarenka retrieves well enough to beat Vee on faster surfaces.

The only problem is Azarenka herself is not a good clay courter, so even that doesnt help her against Venus like it does most people. Which is why it only leaves slow hard courts as her only real chance.

What we DO know is how Azarenka matches up against MASHA...:lol:

really? as far as i'm concerned you (in particular) DO NOT know how Azarenka matches up against Masha

really? as far as i'm concerned you (in particular) DO NOT know how Azarenka matches up against Masha

:lol: Well, 6 times played these year....and we all know how that went, no? :shrug:

The only problem is Azarenka herself is not a good clay courter, so even that doesnt help her against Venus like it does most people. Which is why it only leaves slow hard courts as her only real chance.

Yep..good point. Vika isn't a clay-GOAT, so even on clay Vee probably likes her chances.

I am trying to think of a player similar to Azarenka who prime Venus had trouble with but I cant. Hingis is not similar at all to Azarenka really.
Prime Venus would slay any version of Victoria, period. The question is mainly about the chances Victoria would have against a well-playing Venus.

The first question is, which are the not so fast players who have given Venus trouble. Unlike Serena, Venus can have trouble against slower players.
Some names: Lindsay, Pennetta, (maybe Legend).

The last two are not particularly fast, but they are nimble around the court, anticipate well, know how to work the ball and play from all parts of the court. That is what Azarenka would have to do if she wants to give Venus problems.

:lol: Well, 6 times played these year....and we all know how that went, no? :shrug:

and is far as i remember both times Masha won, you as well as the rest of Willitards were predicting "Vika in straight 6-2 6-3" or something like that :lol:

for instance one of Reetard's prediction before YEC SF

I'm wondering mentally where Sharapova is right now. She mentioned wanting "revenge" on a couple of players after her win today. To me that is the wrong mindset. If you go out there with that expectation knowing the capabilities of each player and you realize revenge isn't happening I think she mentally will fold. As she has done time and time again. She needs to be wanting to go out there and want games not revenge. Start with the basics and go from there. Azarenka 6-2 6-4

Reetards rooting for Vuvurenka are too vulnerable..... Vika is not a great player and will let down their delusional theories and hopes too often It's easy being cocky on this forum being SerenaFan , but it's different to be Vikatard , you'll learn it soon

So Vika would have won her "fair share" of matches against Peak Penus in 2001, even though Henin, Seles, Davenport, Capriati, Clijsters and Serena couldn't at the time? Ok. I can't even stand Penus and I know that's a lie.

I guess it's a reasonable thought, after all, Venus only had to beat Clijsters, Capriati and Serena in consecutive rounds (in straight sets) to win her USO that year. It's not quite as much of an accomplishment as Radwanska, soon-to-retire Clijsters and post-shoulder surgery Sharapova. But alas, not everyone can deal with that tough of a draw.

and is far as i remember both times Masha won, you as well as the rest of Willitards were predicting "Vika in straight 6-2 6-3" or something like that :lol:

for instance one of Reetard's prediction before YEC SF



Reetards rooting for Vuvurenka are too vulnerable..... Vika is not a great player and will let down their delusional theories and hopes too often

Well...there was that Beijing-match, I guess that threw sands in our eyes?! :shrug:

Still, if even Masha can score some wins against Vika..certainly Vee shouldn't have much trouble I say.

Well...there was that Beijing-match, I guess that threw sands in our eyes?! :shrug:

Still, if even Masha can score some wins against Vika..certainly Vee shouldn't have much trouble I say.

at least something sensible in your posts

I was hysterically shouted down by Venus fans and told that this Dubai match against Vika was her best match since 2003

Who?

=dsanders06;22646426] As said, this is by common consent one of Venus's best matches in the past 8 years, whereas for Azarenka, this was an unremarkable match in her worst season since 2008. And yet it was close.

Um, is it? I would just consider it Venus in really good form... That's happened plenty of times since 2003 :confused::lol:

I mean, Venus is inconsistent but DAMN give the girl a break. THAT match was her best non-grass since 2003? Pretty harsh.

Venus matches up pretty well with Azarenka. She would only have trouble on a slower surface but on clay she actually has a big advantage over Vika because Venus moves so well. Venus easily on grass but any HC match would be pretty competitive between the two.

I think Venus is favored because she can tee-off on some of Azarenka's serves but Azarenka is still very tough and would probably get a few wins against Venus, even when she wasn't supposed to.

This thread is premature. Venus is not retired.

Prime Venus would slay any version of Victoria, period. The question is mainly about the chances Victoria would have against a well-playing Venus.

The first question is, which are the not so fast players who have given Venus trouble. Unlike Serena, Venus can have trouble against slower players.
Some names: Lindsay, Pennetta, (maybe Legend).

The last two are not particularly fast, but they are nimble around the court, anticipate well, know how to work the ball and play from all parts of the court. That is what Azarenka would have to do if she wants to give Venus problems.

Exactly, did I not acknowledge in my very first post that Venus in absolute peak form beats whatever Vika produces? :lol:

But even in Venus's best seasons, she was only in peak form about 20% of the time, at best. At the heart of people finding the question so preposterous (well, outside of the delusional Venus-stans who start flipping shit when you suggest anyone but Serena holds a candle to her) seems to be a misconception about Azarenka, that it's easy to overpower her. Again, simply throwing raw pace at her ISN'T in itself enough (unless you're absolutely treeing and landing everything), you need to be able to outmanouevre her. For me, the match-up WOULD be similar to Venus's one against Hingis -- and I'm not suggesting Azarenka is as good as Hingis or even that they're actually that similar in general, simply that the main things that Hingis hurt Venus with (her exceptional anticipation and ability to deflect the hardest-hit shots, and the ability as soon as there's a short ball to take charge of the point) ARE things Azarenka as almost as good at. Hingis's side-to-side movement, while better than Azarenka's, didn't even come into play much in her matches against Venus.

All the reasons people are throwing that Venus would apparently kill Vika even in B/C-form time after time (that she's so powerful, relentlessly aggressive, etc.) are all things that can be said about Sharapova. And now I'll wait for someone to miss the point and brainlessly go "but Venus is in a different league to Sharapova!!!11".

So Vika would have won her "fair share" of matches against Peak Penus in 2001, even though Henin, Seles, Davenport, Capriati, Clijsters and Serena couldn't at the time? Ok. I can't even stand Penus and I know that's a lie

Henin, Seles, Clijsters and Serena were all nowhere near peak form during Peak Venus's time -- and I would've thought it would go without saying that in this thread I'm referring to Peak Azarenka -- so yeah, that's irrelevant. And, although Davenport arguably was peaking at the time, and is certainly a better player than Azarenka, I'm sure I don't have to explain to you that being a worse match-up for a particular player =/= being a better player overall.

The only halfway-relevant example you have is Capriati, as a counterpuncher who actually did peak at the same time as Venus. I would argue Capriati's strengths were also different to Azarenka's and didn't play against Venus's as well: Capriati was never at good as anticipating as Aza is nor as good at deflecting pace; she did have far better raw footspeed than Azarenka, but that doesn't come into play so much against Venus because even at her peak, the placement of her shots was so predictable.

at least something sensible in your posts

;)

So Vika would have won her "fair share" of matches against Peak Penus in 2001, even though Henin, Seles, Davenport, Capriati, Clijsters and Serena couldn't at the time? Ok. I can't even stand Penus and I know that's a lie.

I guess it's a reasonable thought, after all, Venus only had to beat Clijsters, Capriati and Serena in consecutive rounds (in straight sets) to win her USO that year. It's not quite as much of an accomplishment as Radwanska, soon-to-retire Clijsters and post-shoulder surgery Sharapova. But alas, not everyone can deal with that tough of a draw.

Quoting for accuracy and truth.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using VerticalSports.Com App

Vika might get the odd donated win due to venus playing like trash, but venus does that to everyone. I don't think Vika could seriously challenge venus if she was playing well. Only very quick athletes do that.

Henin, Seles, Clijsters and Serena were all nowhere near peak form during Peak Venus's time -- and I would've thought it would go without saying that in this thread I'm referring to Peak Azarenka -- so yeah, that's irrelevant. And, although Davenport arguably was peaking at the time, and is certainly a better player than Azarenka, I'm sure I don't have to explain to you that being a worse match-up for a particular player =/= being a better player overall.

The only halfway-relevant example you have is Capriati, as a counterpuncher who actually did peak at the same time as Venus. I would argue Capriati's strengths were also different to Azarenka's and didn't play against Venus's as well: Capriati was never at good as anticipating as Aza is nor as good at deflecting pace; she did have far better raw footspeed than Azarenka, but that doesn't come into play so much against Venus because even at her peak, the placement of her shots was so predictable.

The question is whether Azarenka is any better than a non prime Henin, Seles, Clijsters, and Serena. Although we will never know for sure I suspect the answer is probably no for the majority of those. Having watched all those players play in their non primes around 2001 or earlier for some, I dont think the current Azarenka is better than any of those players even then, unless you are talking about say the 99-2000 Henin or Clijsters who werent even playing matches vs Venus yet.

I agree on the similarities between Azarenka and Capriati's playing style but I honestly dont see what would make Azarenka any tougher for Venus than Capriati was (which wasnt much at all). Capriati in addition to way more raw foot speed, has way more firepower off the ground, the thought of even comparing their forehands is pretty much a joke, and despite her serving woes in comparision to the Williams and other top players of that era a stronger serve as well. She also was much better at the net and could finish some points up there which Azarenka almost never does. I agree Azarenka anticipates better than Capriati, but I dont agree she is any better at deflecting pace, Capriati was a master of this.

Venus. Everywhere. Easily.

this thread isn't about sharapova but then again i guess i forgot this board thinks willie threads are maria comparisons every single time and vice versa. :o
anyway, the question's impossible to answer unless you're specifying which venus. venus that loses to pironkova or venus that doesn't lose to anyone? azarenka would kill sloppy venus and venus would kill azarenka at her peak. if you think azarenka could even have touched venus in 2000 or 2001, you really need to watch some venus videos..she's a scary bitch when she's good.

a well-below-peak Azarenka made it a real contest:

Don't stretch it, that Vika played awesome tennis just weeks before Dubai almost taking out Serena in the AO.

I'm confused. A few days ago, when I said Venus's best non-grass matches since 2003 were her defeats to the Belgians at the US Open, I was hysterically shouted down by Venus fans and told that this Dubai match against Vika was her best match since 2003 -- by some of the very same people who now in this thread are saying Venus was nowhere remotely close to her peak form in this match. :scratch:




Why the confusion? It is one of Venus's better HC performances since 2003. It's still a full decade after her peak form though.

Vee would destroy her. Next.

All the reasons people are throwing that Venus would apparently kill Vika even in B/C-form time after time (that she's so powerful, relentlessly aggressive, etc.) are all things that can be said about Sharapova. And now I'll wait for someone to miss the point and brainlessly go "but Venus is in a different league to Sharapova!!!11".

Well for one I'll say the same thing I said in the Vika-Henin thread. It depends on what exaclty we mean by their matchup. Modern day Vika would slay Anemic Penus "Sjorgrenus" Williams on all surfaces as any player with club level ability at keeping the ball in the court can these days. Take this Vika and put her against Venus of 2000-2003? It doesn't work much in her favor in my opinion. For one thing Vika's BH CC would play right into Venus' favorite weapon at the time, her BHDTL. And Vika simply doesn't have the raw footspeed that Clijsters and Capriati had to bring that rally back to neutral once Venus pulled the trigger on that shot.

In relation to your Venus-Sharapova comparison, they are apples and oranges. Maria frequently camps at the baseline and fires rockets which actually plays into Vika's game. She LOVES baseline to baseline exchanges with players that give her pace(without overwhelming her. Maria of AO08 when she was regularly pouncing on anything short with reckless abandon would have no such trouble. I was just watching clips of Venus back in the 2002 US HC season and a lot of people forget how often she did just that, suffocating her opponents at the net. It would end the rallies quickly before Vika could grind her down and get an opening for attacking. Of course Vika would pass her sometimes, but I firmly believe the reward would pay off more often than not given Venus' wingspan.

But anyway as I always say GenSuck players are always at a disadvantage in these threads as we likely haven't seen what they're fully capable of. Who knows, maybe a couple of years from now Vika or Petra will play at a level that has us all saying they'd slay Venus, Justine, Martina etc :shrug: I remember Kim looking fairly pedestrian to me in 2002, a lot of times she hit single digit winners in sets, yet she completely floored me in 2005. She didn't look like a total mug as she had her moments, but she didn't look like the player she'd turn out to be.

Well for one I'll say the same thing I said in the Vika-Henin thread. It depends on what exaclty we mean by their matchup. Modern day Vika would slay Anemic Penus "Sjorgrenus" Williams on all surfaces as any player with club level ability at keeping the ball in the court can these days. Take this Vika and put her against Venus of 2000-2003? It doesn't work much in her favor in my opinion. For one thing Vika's BH CC would play right into Venus' favorite weapon at the time, her BHDTL. And Vika simply doesn't have the raw footspeed that Clijsters and Capriati had to bring that rally back to neutral once Venus pulled the trigger on that shot.

In relation to your Venus-Sharapova comparison, they are apples and oranges. Maria frequently camps at the baseline and fires rockets which actually plays into Vika's game. She LOVES baseline to baseline exchanges with players that give her pace(without overwhelming her. Maria of AO08 when she was regularly pouncing on anything short with reckless abandon would have no such trouble. I was just watching clips of Venus back in the 2002 US HC season and a lot of people forget how often she did just that, suffocating her opponents at the net. It would end the rallies quickly before Vika could grind her down and get an opening for attacking. Of course Vika would pass her sometimes, but I firmly believe the reward would pay off more often than not given Venus' wingspan.

But anyway as I always say GenSuck players are always at a disadvantage in these threads as we likely haven't seen what they're fully capable of. Who knows, maybe a couple of years from now Vika or Petra will play at a level that has us all saying they'd slay Venus, Justine, Martina etc :shrug: I remember Kim looking fairly pedestrian to me in 2002, a lot of times she hit single digit winners in sets, yet she completely floored me in 2005. She didn't look like a total mug as she had her moments, but she didn't look like the player she'd turn out to be.

Clijsters was 19 in 2002, made a slam final and semis and would go on to win the YEC at the end of 2002. Whilst I agree Kim got better, you could see even at the age of 19 she was special, same with Henin and Venus and Serena was a slam champion at 17.

Whilst we can say maybe Generation suck may improve (though the youngest is caro who is what 22?) I just don't see anything 'wow' in them that I saw in early WS and belgian sisters. Whether it was Venus huge serve, henin's backhand, serena's power or kim's movement, they played points that took your breath away even at a young age.

I wouldn't be surprised if Vika's crosscourt percentage grind game was at its peak now already and caro has already passed hers. Kvitova is the only real question mark as to how good one of them really could be, but she seems to lack some applications to fitness and overall improvement.

Why the confusion? It is one of Venus's better HC performances since 2003. It's still a full decade after her peak form though.

Exactly. Peak Venus was clearly from 2000-2003 so why would one of her best performances since 2003 even matter, even if that were true. It is like saying one of Azarenkas best performances before 2011 or even in 2011 and making that her peak tennis, in which case her peak matches would probably be 3 setters were she was badly overpowered by the one dimensional and error spraying ball basher Kvitova, despite sneaking a set out.

i was gonna post something, but seeing dsanders already got crushed (:hug:) i rest

Do we really need to use condescending and rude nicknames for players?

Head to head is lead by Venus 2-0.

Peak Venus confortably