PDA

View Full Version : Who is the better grinder and counterpuncher? Kim or Vika


thegreendestiny
Dec 26th, 2012, 05:00 AM
Both have good defense-to-offense game. Who does it better?

Cooper96
Dec 26th, 2012, 05:01 AM
Kim. No doubt.

JarkaFish
Dec 26th, 2012, 05:02 AM
Just an absolutely silly question, Kim's athleticism and offense is leagues above Azarenka.

faboozadoo15
Dec 26th, 2012, 07:52 AM
Kim has so much more athleticism, but Vika has more drive.

oneshot
Dec 26th, 2012, 08:53 AM
Azarenka is simply not a good athlete. Not only is she extremely slow, she's probably the most injury-prone (:oh:) player in the top 50. The effectiveness of her tennis comes from other assets.

Regardless, I do think she falls into the counterpuncher/grindr category, and with that said, Kim is just leagues above her. Also, most of Clijsters' career peak was played in much faster courts, where Azarenka would be slaughtered by any of Venus or Davenport or any of the big fast court hitters.

Plus, Clijsters had a deadly forehand. Azarenka's is just useless aside from changing direction DTL or opening up the angle cross-court (it still looks painfully awkward when she does the latter).

Alejandrawrrr
Dec 26th, 2012, 09:16 AM
It's hard to compare them fairly as Kim's been at the top of women's for nearly ten years so we have more to go on for her than Vika whose only been at the top of her game for 2 or 3 years. I'll try to base this on how they perform on average since becoming true top players, rather than a few isolated displays of "peak" form which may not have been the norm.

I love Vika and despise Kim but it doesn't take an expert to know that on average Kim is certainly a better grinder. Very few women in tennis history can compare to her in terms of athleticism, getting back even half the balls she could get back when she was fit and healthy. And those splits :eek: Vika isn't even the best of her era in that regard(Wozniacki, Radwanska, Kerber if you include her are all better retrievers), while Kim was one of the best of all time at that game. I'd say Vika on average is a better counterpuncher in a literal sense, in terms of redirecting pace frustratingly deep to result in few UEs of her own, and high forced/unforced error counts in her opponents. Kim many times hit herself out of matches, especially off the powerful but erratic forehand wing(even more so in her second career), While Vika(especially in 2012) challenges her opponents to simply outplay her for the win, plain and simple.

Dexter
Dec 26th, 2012, 10:42 AM
This is the best Grindr. :)

http://www.gaytravel.com/assets/uploads/ce_image_cache/assets/uploads/blog/Grindr-Xtra-Logo_580_620_s_c1.png

flyingmachine
Dec 26th, 2012, 11:21 AM
No one can match the defensive play into an art form like Kim did.

SilverSlam
Dec 26th, 2012, 11:22 AM
^ :spit: I thought you were straight :lol: (Dexter not the Shitra fan)

Anyways back on topic, maybe Vika. Kim is a much more aggressive player by far. Don't get me wrong, she's the better player, but she is always more aggressive than Vika, so much so that I'd put her in more of an attacker category that grinder. So Vika wins.

Igorche
Dec 26th, 2012, 11:32 AM
Kim

Dexter
Dec 26th, 2012, 11:43 AM
^ :spit: I thought you were straight :lol: (Dexter not the Shitra fan)

I'm as gay as it gets. :) The only time I touched vagina was when I was being born.

bandabou
Dec 26th, 2012, 11:50 AM
Vika CAN be hit through off the ground...her biggest asset really is her returning that puts most players in trouble and then she can grind with her consistent groundstrokes.

ElusiveChanteuse
Dec 26th, 2012, 12:23 PM
Peak Kim.:worship:

Sammo
Dec 26th, 2012, 12:59 PM
Kim obviously, Vika is the better Grinch though

Lilowannabe
Dec 26th, 2012, 01:30 PM
Voted Vika, only because I've always felt Kim has too much power to be a grinder. Yes she was a natural counter puncher, but again she could play very aggressive

Cosmic Voices
Dec 26th, 2012, 01:49 PM
I'm as gay as it gets. :) The only time I touched vagina was when I was being born.

:lol:

Steven.
Dec 26th, 2012, 02:25 PM
Kim is the greatest counterpuncher since ASV. Nobody could defend or turn defense into offense like Kim could in the 00s or 10s so far.

viktory
Dec 26th, 2012, 02:58 PM
It's hard to compare them fairly as Kim's been at the top of women's for nearly ten years so we have more to go on for her than Vika whose only been at the top of her game for 2 or 3 years. I'll try to base this on how they perform on average since becoming true top players, rather than a few isolated displays of "peak" form which may not have been the norm.

I love Vika and despise Kim but it doesn't take an expert to know that on average Kim is certainly a better grinder. Very few women in tennis history can compare to her in terms of athleticism, getting back even half the balls she could get back when she was fit and healthy. And those splits :eek: Vika isn't even the best of her era in that regard(Wozniacki, Radwanska, Kerber if you include her are all better retrievers), while Kim was one of the best of all time at that game. I'd say Vika on average is a better counterpuncher in a literal sense, in terms of redirecting pace frustratingly deep to result in few UEs of her own, and high forced/unforced error counts in her opponents. Kim many times hit herself out of matches, especially off the powerful but erratic forehand wing(even more so in her second career), While Vika(especially in 2012) challenges her opponents to simply outplay her for the win, plain and simple.

agree with most of this post apart from despising kim and vika's method of winning. I do think vika has her own weapons like Ros.

SilverSlam
Dec 26th, 2012, 03:02 PM
I'm as gay as it gets. :) The only time I touched vagina was when I was being born.

:hysteric: :rolls:

viktory
Dec 26th, 2012, 03:24 PM
I'm as gay as it gets. :) The only time I touched vagina was when I was being born.

:worship::haha:

miffedmax
Dec 26th, 2012, 03:29 PM
Grinding and counterpunching are not the same thing, for like the 1,000,000th time. A counterpuncher waits for an opening and shifts suddenly to the offensive with a hard, powerful attack.

A grinder wears an opponent down with defense and finishes the point as much by running the opponent to death as anything else.

Kim, was the ultimate grinder. Nothing got by her, ever. In some ways I think her reluctance to finish points might have hurt her because she preferred to stay back--she could be like a Wozniaki with power sometimes.

Vika, while less good on defense and without the sheer power of the other women, is excellent at pouncing on other player's mistakes--any short ball, any ball without enough pace and her ability to redirect balls make her a great counterpuncher as well.

CloudAtlas
Dec 26th, 2012, 03:35 PM
Azarenka isn't even the best grinder of her generation let alone better than one of the greatest the game has seen.

thegreendestiny
Dec 27th, 2012, 01:12 PM
Grinding and counterpunching are not the same thing, for like the 1,000,000th time. A counterpuncher waits for an opening and shifts suddenly to the offensive with a hard, powerful attack.

A grinder wears an opponent down with defense and finishes the point as much by running the opponent to death as anything else.

Kim, was the ultimate grinder. Nothing got by her, ever. In some ways I think her reluctance to finish points might have hurt her because she preferred to stay back--she could be like a Wozniaki with power sometimes.

Vika, while less good on defense and without the sheer power of the other women, is excellent at pouncing on other player's mistakes--any short ball, any ball without enough pace and her ability to redirect balls make her a great counterpuncher as well.

Grinding and counterpunching are not exactly the same but they both are similar in terms of being generally passive and defensive in nature. :shrug:

miffedmax
Dec 27th, 2012, 04:36 PM
Counterpunchers, though, have the ability to hit hard and fast when they see an opening. Grinders don't. The boxing equivalent of a grinder would be an "outfighter" who wins on points, not by KO. A counterpuncher can land a KO punch, esp. off an opponents mistake. I think Vika is a counterpuncher and Kim is more of a grinder/outfighter.

Of course, you are right in that most players (or boxers) fall 100% into just one category, and most counterpunchers grind, and most grinders counterpunch. But I would still say you can classify them by the style which best characterizes their play. Vika lands on the cp side of the line, and Kim on the gr side. Kim is probably closer to the middle than Vika.

Volcana
Dec 27th, 2012, 04:46 PM
Both have good defense-to-offense game. Who does it better?2010 Clijsters was certainly better that 2012 Azarenka, defense-to-offense.

But 22 year old Clijsters didn't HAVE a defense-to-offense game. She was a pure defender.
22 year old Azarenka already HAS a legit defense-to-offense game

GAGAlady
Dec 27th, 2012, 05:34 PM
Kim has 3 slams over vika and a heck of a lot more on her resume than her too, so it's not fair to vika who's only big fining her career to compare to Kim who has done so much in tennis. To me physically kim is of course physicallynthebstronger and more flexible player of the two, she plays more aggressively and played most of her tennis on faster courts so maybe I should say vika is more a counterpuncher because Kim could end points off both the backhand forehand side. Vika is more conservative for sure in her shotmaking so far. And serve wise kimnhad the better serve too....

Craig.
Dec 27th, 2012, 05:38 PM
LOLOLOLOL.

Kim.

dsanders06
Dec 27th, 2012, 07:04 PM
^ :spit: I thought you were straight :lol: (Dexter not the Shitra fan)

Anyways back on topic, maybe Vika. Kim is a much more aggressive player by far. Don't get me wrong, she's the better player, but she is always more aggressive than Vika, so much so that I'd put her in more of an attacker category that grinder. So Vika wins.

Really really not.

There's no doubt Kim is a much better mover and defensive player than Vika is. Who plays the better offense is more interesting though. Kim has more firepower and hits the more lethal shots, but I feel Vika is more capable of actually playing sustained controlled aggression....Kim was almost always just too error-prone when she was trying to play an out-and-out aggressive gameplan, whereas Vika is more than capable of playing aggressive tennis without making errors. Also, when it comes to turning defence-to-offence, even though the fundamentals of Kim's game mean she SHOULD be better at this, I feel Vika's instincts of when exactly to pounce (+ shot selection) are slightly better than Kim's.

Overall, peak to peak Kim certainly wins, but it's not a case of Kim simply doing everything better, because if she was below her best she would've had a tough time beating Vika -- you can't really win by playing pure defense against Azarenka, and if Kim was slightly off and not pulling off her attacking shots then she just wouldn't've been picking up enough points.

JoPova
Dec 27th, 2012, 07:07 PM
Really really not.

There's no doubt Kim is a much better mover and defensive player than Vika is. Who plays the better offense is more interesting though. Kim has more firepower and hits the more lethal shots, but I feel Vika is more capable of actually playing sustained controlled aggression....Kim was almost always just too error-prone when she was trying to play an out-and-out aggressive gameplan, whereas Vika is more than capable of playing aggressive tennis without making errors. Also, when it comes to turning defence-to-offence, even though the fundamentals of Kim's game mean she SHOULD be better at this, I feel Vika's instincts of when exactly to pounce (+ shot selection) are slightly better than Kim's.

Overall, peak to peak Kim certainly wins, but it's not a case of Kim simply doing everything better, because if she was below her best she would've had a tough time beating Vika -- you can't really win by playing pure defense against Azarenka, and if Kim was slightly off and not pulling off her attacking shots then she just wouldn't've been picking up enough points.

Tell that to Caroline! :angel: No, I'm just kidding! I get what you're saying and I agree with you! Vika's attacking game is more solid than Kim, but Kim's defense is infinitely better than Vika's.

ToopsTame
Dec 27th, 2012, 07:31 PM
Counterpunchers, though, have the ability to hit hard and fast when they see an opening. Grinders don't. The boxing equivalent of a grinder would be an "outfighter" who wins on points, not by KO. A counterpuncher can land a KO punch, esp. off an opponents mistake. I think Vika is a counterpuncher and Kim is more of a grinder/outfighter.

Of course, you are right in that most players (or boxers) fall 100% into just one category, and most counterpunchers grind, and most grinders counterpunch. But I would still say you can classify them by the style which best characterizes their play. Vika lands on the cp side of the line, and Kim on the gr side. Kim is probably closer to the middle than Vika.

I agree with your characterizations of Vika and Kim but I think outfighter is an unfair moniker for Kim's style of play. She won most points with winners, not by relying on opponents' errors. I would compare her gamestyle to someone like Djokovic on the ATP. The main difference between them to me is Vika always tries to take the ball early whereas Kim liked to take the ball late. Vika likes to hug the baseline to take time away from opponents and increase the speed/intensity of rallies until the opponent can't keep up. Kim wore opponents down from 4 ft behind the baseline and then went for the knockout punch. Vika has problems when her opponents match her intensity and make her run, Kim had problems when opponents went for broke and finished the point before Kim had a chance.

edificio
Dec 27th, 2012, 07:32 PM
Kim's not a complete grinder nor counterpuncher. She's better than that.

Stonerpova
Dec 27th, 2012, 08:50 PM
Not even close. Clijsters was faster, had better defensive capabilities, and she hit the ball harder.

Sombrerero loco
Dec 27th, 2012, 09:16 PM
This is the best Grindr. :)

http://www.gaytravel.com/assets/uploads/ce_image_cache/assets/uploads/blog/Grindr-Xtra-Logo_580_620_s_c1.png

:haha:
:bowdown: