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View Full Version : Is there a case for considering Seles to be greater than Serena?


dsanders06
Dec 24th, 2012, 02:59 PM
Just asking. Considering some here now think Slam counts aren't that important if Serena has a case of being greater than Graf, surely by the same logic there is a case for Monica being greater than Serena? Especially when the key argument for Serena>Graf is that "Serena at her peak was (supposedly) more dominant than Graf" -- well there's no doubt that Monica's peak was more glorious and lasted far longer than Serena's did. Similarly some argue Serena would've won more Slams than Graf had she not got that injury in 2003 - well you can CERTAINLY argue the same for Seles's stabbing, especially when you consider that she'd won 8 Slams by the age of 19 whereas Serena had only won one at that age.

Discuss.

Royals.
Dec 24th, 2012, 03:02 PM
Just asking. Considering some here now think Slam counts aren't that important if Serena has a case of being greater than Graf, surely by the same logic there is a case for Monica being greater than Serena? Especially when the key argument for Serena>Graf is that "Serena at her peak was (supposedly) more dominant than Graf" -- well there's no doubt that Monica's peak was more glorious and lasted far longer than Serena's did. Similarly some argue Serena would've won more Slams than Graf had she not got that injury in 2003 - well you can CERTAINLY argue the same for Seles's stabbing, especially when you consider that she'd won 8 Slams by the age of 19 whereas Serena had only won one at that age.

Discuss.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Ergh.

J4m3ka
Dec 24th, 2012, 03:03 PM
A mess.

Start da Game
Dec 24th, 2012, 03:04 PM
seles would not have got more than 13 or 14 slams in normal circumstances......her peak would have ended by 95......so still serena ahead......

JarkaFish
Dec 24th, 2012, 03:06 PM
No.

Tezuka.
Dec 24th, 2012, 03:06 PM
No, there isn't.

babsi
Dec 24th, 2012, 03:07 PM
If's, lots of if's in that post.

You can also say if Steffi hadn't of had knee surgery in 97 then she could have won more. Because in 95 and 96 she won every GS she entered.

It just goes round in circles and really is pointless.

JarkaFish
Dec 24th, 2012, 03:09 PM
If's, lots of if's in that post.

You can also say if Steffi hadn't of had knee surgery in 97 then she could have won more. Because in 95 and 96 she won every GS she entered.

It just goes round in circles and really is pointless.

You're right that these hypotheticals are irrelevant.

Kasey
Dec 24th, 2012, 03:13 PM
Nice try, but you gotta hurry up not to miss the Xmas Supper in the Tower! Whould be a shame if fellow Guardians started caroling without you, just sayin'.

dsanders06
Dec 24th, 2012, 03:13 PM
If's, lots of if's in that post.

You can also say if Steffi hadn't of had knee surgery in 97 then she could have won more. Because in 95 and 96 she won every GS she entered.

It just goes round in circles and really is pointless.

Personally, I completely agree with you. But, because we've now entered a world where people are claiming that when it comes to comparing Serena to Graf, Slam counts suddenly don't matter and hypotheticals are extremely important, I figured this debate was also legitimate.

ZeroSumGame
Dec 24th, 2012, 03:14 PM
No chance of snowball in hell ... :lol:

dsanders06
Dec 24th, 2012, 03:14 PM
Nice try, but you gotta hurry up not to miss the Xmas Supper in the Tower! Whould be a shame if fellow Guardians started caroling without you, just sayin'.

Next time you try to insult someone, try and make sure it's atleast somewhat intelligible to atleast SOME humanbeings.

Sammo
Dec 24th, 2012, 03:17 PM
Sure, if some Serena fans consider her to be greater than Graf and Navratilova based on nothing, why not? :lol: After all Seles has more titles than Serena and has been more weeks at number 1 than her, those are FACTS :wavey:

Igorche
Dec 24th, 2012, 03:18 PM
Just asking. Considering some here now think Slam counts aren't that important if Serena has a case of being greater than Graf, surely by the same logic there is a case for Monica being greater than Serena? Especially when the key argument for Serena>Graf is that "Serena at her peak was (supposedly) more dominant than Graf" -- well there's no doubt that Monica's peak was more glorious and lasted far longer than Serena's did. Similarly some argue Serena would've won more Slams than Graf had she not got that injury in 2003 - well you can CERTAINLY argue the same for Seles's stabbing, especially when you consider that she'd won 8 Slams by the age of 19 whereas Serena had only won one at that age.

Discuss.

I completely agree.

Nicolás89
Dec 24th, 2012, 03:25 PM
Bored people. :lol:

bandabou
Dec 24th, 2012, 03:32 PM
:lol: Ah Douchesanders is slipping lower and lower day by the day. :lol:

If Mashatards claim that Maria needs just one more major to surpass BOTH Vee and Juju while still trailing by 2 majors, solely based on career slam...then how the heck is Monica gonna be greater than Serena who has AND the career-slam, not just the career-slam..but held them ALL four at the same time...AND has more majors than Monica?! :facepalm:

Kuzzy24
Dec 24th, 2012, 03:34 PM
She doesn't even have a grand slam.

Gaby Gasparyan
Dec 24th, 2012, 03:35 PM
I think on balance, Monica's appearance on Dancing With The Stars trumps....Serena's guest spot on Law and Order SVU....

So yes, most definitely

andrewC
Dec 24th, 2012, 03:42 PM
No.

Alejandrawrrr
Dec 24th, 2012, 03:43 PM
A mess :lol:

Dominic
Dec 24th, 2012, 04:19 PM
Sure, if some Serena fans consider her to be greater than Graf and Navratilova based on nothing, why not? :lol: After all Seles has more titles than Serena and has been more weeks at number 1 than her, those are FACTS :wavey:

THIS. I personally wouldn't have said that but some of the Serena fans have made it clear that slam count isn't important anymore so yeah then I guess Seles is greater AND she's not a despicable character!

Mistress of Evil
Dec 24th, 2012, 04:24 PM
Who cares?
If The Daughter of Satan didn't get injured back in 2008, she would have won the next 19 Slams and be the GOAT of the GOATS. Sadly, evil was slayed. :crying2:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_me0csmlopq1qe826to1_250.gif

Mr.Sharapova
Dec 24th, 2012, 04:35 PM
Nope. Serena is greater than Seles :shrug:.

miffedmax
Dec 24th, 2012, 04:36 PM
Who cares?
If The Daughter of Satan didn't get injured back in 2008, she would have won the next 19 Slams and be the GOAT of the GOATS. Sadly, evil was slayed. :crying2:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_me0csmlopq1qe826to1_250.gif

My Darth Vika was injured in 2008?

Serenita
Dec 24th, 2012, 04:47 PM
THIS. I personally wouldn't have said that but some of the Serena fans have made it clear that slam count isn't important anymore so yeah then I guess Seles is greater AND she's not a despicable character!
I truly feel sorry for you, you go out of your way to hate all day and night long. So sad, you should try to find something positive in your life. :tears:

NashaMasha
Dec 24th, 2012, 04:48 PM
if Sharapova hadn't injured her shoulder she might have had equal number of Slams with Justine and Venus by today....

Should I open a new thread?

Actually i think that all these threads "if she ..bla-bla-bla, she would have....." are pointless, because it's impossible to prove it. Imagine that Martina Hingis retired after her 1999 season. The Whole TF would have been predicting double digits count of Slams for her.... In reality she didn't win a single one since then

AcesHigh
Dec 24th, 2012, 04:56 PM
if Sharapova hadn't injured her shoulder she might have had equal number of Slams with Justine and Venus by today....

Should I open a new thread?

:spit: post of the thread.

And to answer the question at hand, no.... no.

Sammo
Dec 24th, 2012, 05:01 PM
if Sharapova hadn't injured her shoulder she might have had equal number of Slams with Justine and Venus by today....


Or maybe she would still have 3 as she probably wouldn't have won Roland Garros if it wasn't for the shoulder injury that forced her to change her playing style

Talula
Dec 24th, 2012, 05:05 PM
Not even a Seles super fan like myself would say 'yes'. Why?:

Only 1 Wimbledon final.

No Wimbledon title.

Failure to really go for it after her comeback, particularly in comparison to Serena's recent comeback after issues that were no doubt very traumatic and could have ended her career and life. Monica succumbed mentally and was broken. She lacked belief and that is a sign of weakness not greatness. You can't just win when everything is peachy. I still love her more than any other player though!

bandabou
Dec 24th, 2012, 05:08 PM
THIS. I personally wouldn't have said that but some of the Serena fans have made it clear that slam count isn't important anymore so yeah then I guess Seles is greater AND she's not a despicable character!

:lol: Despicable character, huh?

And you're the Moral Patrol? :lol: Lord KNOWS how much of a sinnner you're yourself. You really should refrain of passing judgement like this. When you live in a glass house, well..:lol:

Talula
Dec 24th, 2012, 05:12 PM
I completely agree.

Monica, like Hingis, won when young, carefree and directed and supported by a very close parent. When they matured and the pains of life got in the way they couldn't cope mentally. They were winners when everything was going well.

Serena has proven she can overcome traumas, comeback and be better than before. Winning slams at a very early age is not a sign of overall greatness. It's a burst of prodigious talent. Serena's winning ways has spanned decades, seeing off players who came after her and have since retired! She's beaten all her rivals bar none. There's no comparison really.

bandabou
Dec 24th, 2012, 05:24 PM
Unless she has an individual super great year at some point, or establishes some dominance of winning streak at one particular major, Maria would need atleast 4 more majors to be put above Venus and Henin, maybe 5. Henins WTA Championship success, Venus Olympic success, Venus and her doubles success, and Marias lack of any dominant period, any remote period of dominance, any dominance of any surface, are enormous holes in comparision to both Henin and Venus. Venus totally dominated grass and is one of the best ever on that surface, even if in her own era Serena who is also one of the best ever is close to her. Venus also was the dominant player for 18 months from mid 2000 to end of 2001. Henin totally dominated clay and is by far best of her era on clay, and on par with Graf and Seles all time, only behind Evert in the Open Era. She also totally dominated 2007 and mid 2003-early 2004, not just on clay, while in general being the dominant player of 2003-2007 with far more consistency and overall success (big wins such a 10 Slams, WTA Championship, or Olympic wins) that period than anyone else. Venus has 4 Olympic Golds and Henin 3 WTA Championships and 3 Year end #1s. Maria with merely a 5th major pales so far compared to this it isnt even funny.

:lol: Ain't it something..Sharapova is barely greater than Davenport/Kim...yet her fans have the audacity to open threads questioning Serena's greatness. :lol: Priceless.

GAGAlady
Dec 24th, 2012, 05:33 PM
Seles has 9 slams Serena has 15. That's a pretty big gap. Serena has 6 more slams than Seles and counting. Serena isn't finished adding to her slam count everyone agrees she has 3-5 slams left in her realistically maybe more...so that alone makes me say no no no to This question. It is a legitimate question however I agree

Also Seles has no doubles credentials. So in the regard shes cant be compared to serenanwho has many doubles slams to her name, Serena is the better all around player, she has better shots overall and her serve is a lot better than Seles serve too. Her movement is much better always ways, return of serve is one shot I may give to Seles just out of respect for her game and mental toughness also is equal I would say but not greater to Serena. Both are great legends and Seles did so many amazing things given her circumstances but is she better? No.

Sammo
Dec 24th, 2012, 05:47 PM
These would be the cases for Serena being better than Graf or Navratilova.

Navratilova:

-Way tougher competition as Martinas era (82-86) was a total joke other than an alternately slumping or aging Evert.

-Way more Olympic success despite that Martina was eligible to play in 3 Olympics (1984, 1988, 1992). If she chose not to, that is her problem, Graf chose to play in those same ones for instance and won tons of medals.

-Also being successful in both singles and doubles like Martina.

-Much more longevity as a dominant player. Martina won 15 of her 18 slams and all 9 of her non Wimbledons from 1982-1987. Serena is dominant in 2002, and dominant many years later in 2012.

-Played and won in an era with a greater variety of slam surfaces, slow hard courts in Australia (which Martina would have sucked royally on), clay, grass, and fast hard courts in New York. Actually Martina did get to play on the slow hard courts of Australia. Got killed by 35 year old Evert the first time, lost to Sukova in the quarters the next, and never showed up again, so moreso than Navratilova in fact Serena can win on all surface, even on clay at Roland Garros she has been Champion.



Graf:

-Benefited from Seles stabbing.

-Like Navratilova excelled in weak era. The toughest period of her era was 1991-1992 which wasnt even her era but Seles it turned out, and I guess 1989 was pretty good too, so she was dominant one year with good competition only.

-We see when she played Serena when neither was in their prime in 1999, but both good enough to win slams, she had enormous problems with Serena power game.

-Did not excel in doubles like Serena and Navratilova did, and barely even played it.

-Did not play and excel into her 30s like Serena did, in fact the last 3 years of her career aged 27 to 29 won only 1 major.


As for Seles and her weaks at #1 over a whole year of those weeks are a gift. She never should have spent a moment of August 1995-October 1996 ranked #1 but due to her ridiculous comeback policies put in place she was given the co-#1 with Graf simply for playing, when her play never merited time at #1, and by late 1996 looked like a joke and embarassment for the WTA. OK so we can say with her ranking points she was a lock to be #1 for atleast 3 more months had she not been stabbed, so lets say a year rather than a year plus worth of gift time at #1, anything more is speculatory, but that still takes her below Serena who earned all her weeks at #1 for real, not gifted them by some special rule while clearly not being on the level of the real #1 at the time.

I'm sorry and Serena did not excel in a weak era? She, like Graf and Navratilova with their respective minions, is lightyears away from Azarenka, Safina, Ivanovic, Radwanska, Zvonareva, Wozniacki, etc. who have been the rivals she's had to beat at the finals she's played. On the other hand she didn't do so well when playing old rivals from the era in which the competition was better (like Clijsters). Graf definitely benefitted from the stabbing of Seles but Navratilova still had Chris Evert, Mandlikova, and Graf herself. The closest rival H2H-wise Serena's had in the last 4 years in which she's won 6 or 7 Slams is Sam Stosur, who doesn't exactly have a similar career to Serena like Navratilova and Evert did.

bandabou
Dec 24th, 2012, 05:51 PM
Is she greater than them. Davenport has over 50 career titles, and Serena haters seems to think small tournament wins are so important so why not here too. Maria has only half that, and will probably never approach that final number. Davenport at her peak won 3 of 6 majors, and faced way tougher competition than Maria did. As for Kim not even at her peak, but her peakiest period of the era that is mostly Marias peak time, won 2 U.S Opens, Australian Open, WTA Championships, and Miami all in an 18 month span, so dominated the field Maria is vulturing, and also was the best player of 2005 with a U.S Open title and 7 tournament wins. Kim has 2 ˙ears as probably best player of WTA, or atleast best year, while Maria has none. Kim has won 3 WTA Championships to only 1 for Maria, and has many more career titles too.


:lol: I mean..need we say more?

Royals.
Dec 24th, 2012, 06:00 PM
:lol: I mean..need we say more?

Not at all.

Venusfan32. I love you. :kiss::kiss:

NashaMasha
Dec 24th, 2012, 06:00 PM
Is she greater than them. Davenport has over 50 career titles, and Serena haters seems to think small tournament wins are so important so why not here too. Maria has only half that, and will probably never approach that final number. Davenport at her peak won 3 of 6 majors, and faced way tougher competition than Maria did. As for Kim not even at her peak, but her peakiest period of the era that is mostly Marias peak time, won 2 U.S Opens, Australian Open, WTA Championships, and Miami all in an 18 month span, so dominated the field Maria is vulturing, and also was the best player of 2005 with a U.S Open title and 7 tournament wins. Kim has 2 ˙ears as probably best player of WTA, or atleast best year, while Maria has none. Kim has won 3 WTA Championships to only 1 for Maria, and has many more career titles too.

:lol::lol::lol:

Jon Wertheim ‏@jon_wertheim
What do seles, davenport, hingis, venus, henin and clijsters have in common? None won the career grand slam. Just sayin...?

Lindsay Davenport : @jon_wertheim "no question it elevates her to a whole different level if she wins..."
"Just incredible what Maria accomplished these last two weeks. No way anyone but herself and her team thought this was possible 3+ years ago."
"I believe winning a career grand slam puts her at a higher level in history books even though (so far) she's 'only' won 4 slams."

_________________________

PS: one thread is about Seles, the other about Serena and potential 18 Slams ....... but with bandabou and some other trolls both threads are about their secret love called Masha

Kasey
Dec 24th, 2012, 06:03 PM
if Sharapova hadn't injured her shoulder she might have had equal number of Slams with Justine and Venus by today....


:spit:
Please, ain't nobody got time for that.

:spit: post of the thread.

And to answer the question at hand, no.... no.
:lol:
QTF

Royals.
Dec 24th, 2012, 06:03 PM
:lol::lol::lol:

Jon Wertheim ‏@jon_wertheim
What do seles, davenport, hingis, venus, henin and clijsters have in common? None won the career grand slam. Just sayin...?

Lindsay Davenport : @jon_wertheim "no question it elevates her to a whole different level if she wins..."
"Just incredible what Maria accomplished these last two weeks. No way anyone but herself and her team thought this was possible 3+ years ago."
"I believe winning a career grand slam puts her at a higher level in history books even though (so far) she's 'only' won 4 slams."

Pfft Lindsey's just trying to be nice. 4 slams does not even put her CLOSE to the greats. Her consistency is also another factor which gives her the disadvantage.

JarkaFish
Dec 24th, 2012, 06:04 PM
Sharapova is the pigeon of every decent player she comes across, please get her name out of this thread.

In The Zone
Dec 24th, 2012, 06:05 PM
Why mention Serena? There's a case for Monica to be the greatest over everyone. She will always have an asterisk, unfortunately. :(

Royals.
Dec 24th, 2012, 06:05 PM
Sharapova is the pigeon of every decent player she comes across, please get her name out of this thread.

Best thing you've said today. :lol:

She's just a brand, nothing more.

bandabou
Dec 24th, 2012, 06:15 PM
I'm sorry and Serena did not excel in a weak era? She, like Graf and Navratilova with their respective minions, is lightyears away from Azarenka, Safina, Ivanovic, Radwanska, Zvonareva, Wozniacki, etc. who have been the rivals she's had to beat at the finals she's played. On the other hand she didn't do so well when playing old rivals from the era in which the competition was better (like Clijsters). Graf definitely benefitted from the stabbing of Seles but Navratilova still had Chris Evert, Mandlikova, and Graf herself. The closest rival H2H-wise Serena's had in the last 4 years in which she's won 6 or 7 Slams is Sam Stosur, who doesn't exactly have a similar career to Serena like Navratilova and Evert did.

Wozniacki, Ivanovic in finals? :unsure: You're confusing her with Masha..:lol:

NashaMasha
Dec 24th, 2012, 06:15 PM
Sharapova is the pigeon of every decent player she comes across, please get her name out of this thread.


where is the list of her masters?:lol:

you'd better check your fave's H2H vs other players..... If'm not mistaken she has losing h2h to Caro, Vera, Dinara , Dementieva, Kuzzy, Petra etc

iWill
Dec 24th, 2012, 06:31 PM
There is a case to argue in favor of Monica Seles, (if someone would like to analyze it with as little bias as possible I'd love to hear it)

I get where the OP is coming from however. I think that people are/can argue that Serena>Graf mostly because in terms of achievements Serena has credentials that Seles does not. (Career Grand Slam is a huge one) If we are talking pure number of slams Serena will never win against Graf, Evert, or Navratilova at the moment but she will be the immediate name following all of those champions if she retired tomorrow. Seles will also be talked about among the GOATs and looking at her trajectory before the stabbing it is hard not to leave her out of the discussion.

JarkaFish
Dec 24th, 2012, 06:35 PM
where is the list of her masters?:lol:

you'd better check your fave's H2H vs other players..... If'm not mistaken she has losing h2h to Caro, Vera, Dinara , Dementieva, Kuzzy, Petra etc

You think Azarenka is my fave?

http://themidnightalliance.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/ronaldo-laugh.gif

Mistress of Evil
Dec 24th, 2012, 07:04 PM
justineheninfan, first and foremost change your flag and Bday/age before making your 101th account for the last week. Modify your style a bit and ask Serenidad for advice how not to get caught.

NashaMasha
Dec 24th, 2012, 07:05 PM
Navratilova never had strong competition in her era of 82-86 or 87 when she won nearly all her slams and all her non Wimbledons.

Navratilova as well as Evert also benefitted from Tracy Austin's injury ..... so it's never ending if /if story

Lilowannabe
Dec 24th, 2012, 07:42 PM
Actually got excited about debating this when I saw the thread title.... Then I saw the thread starter, renouned serena hater. Just another bash thread disguised as a debate. Meh you dsanders

StoneRose
Dec 24th, 2012, 08:03 PM
OP makes a good argument. Still don't think so. But then again i think slam count should always be the decisive factor in this kind of dispute. Only if it's very close maybe other factors can be counted in (such as career slams and that sort of stuff for example ;)).

acetoace
Dec 24th, 2012, 08:10 PM
Actually got excited about debating this when I saw the thread title.... Then I saw the thread starter, renouned serena hater. Just another bash thread disguised as a debate. Meh you dsanders


....and by their fruits, we shall know them.:rolleyes: U know the drill on here and your take was exactly my thought when I read the thread topic and observed the ID behind it-dsanders06 a (pathological Serena hater & a joke):lol::lol::lol:

Like his other anti-Serena threads that remain in "infamy" on TF, this also is on the fail highway as I type.

Thanks though for calling it exactly what it is.:worship::worship::worship:

n1_and_uh_noone
Dec 24th, 2012, 08:13 PM
Serena greater than Graf? :happy:

Which :weirdo: thinks that (3.. 2.. 1 till someone posts some delusional rant by Werthless or Bozo)?

Nicolás89
Dec 24th, 2012, 08:23 PM
Is there a case for considering Seles to be greater than Serena?

Yeah a case of insanity on your part. :lol:

Brad[le]y.
Dec 24th, 2012, 08:25 PM
There really isn't :shrug:

Seles had a dire record at Wimbledon, even pre-stabbing. When she was on top of the game, she made the finals of Wimbledon once, winning three games against Graf. No other all time great has received a beatdown of that calibre in a slam final in the prime of their career.

n1_and_uh_noone
Dec 24th, 2012, 08:28 PM
justineheninfan, first and foremost change your flag and Bday/age before making your 101th account for the last week. Modify your style a bit and ask Serenidad for advice how not to get caught.

:lol: it is so obvious it is insulting. What's he/she trying to do, rile up supporters of different camps against each other?

Igorche
Dec 26th, 2012, 12:18 PM
So is it Seles > Serena > Graf or Graf > Serena > Seles?

Rolling-Thunder
Dec 26th, 2012, 01:49 PM
No...too many hypotheticals. Based on the results as they stand, there is no comparison. Serena eclipes Seles, Henin, Venus.

Plus Serena has had a much more successful overall career with singles and doubles and you add in the Olympics. Additionally, Serena has been much more successful on all Grand Slam surfaces compared to Seles.

If you want to add what ifs, if Serena had not cut her foot in 2010, she likely would already be at 18 slams. Her unbelievable 2010 Wimbledon and the unsurpassed serving clinic (until the 2012 Olympics) seen there, should have carried her to the US Open title and the 2011 Aus Open crown.

Sam L
Dec 26th, 2012, 02:02 PM
Just asking. Considering some here now think Slam counts aren't that important if Serena has a case of being greater than Graf, surely by the same logic there is a case for Monica being greater than Serena? Especially when the key argument for Serena>Graf is that "Serena at her peak was (supposedly) more dominant than Graf" -- well there's no doubt that Monica's peak was more glorious and lasted far longer than Serena's did. Similarly some argue Serena would've won more Slams than Graf had she not got that injury in 2003 - well you can CERTAINLY argue the same for Seles's stabbing, especially when you consider that she'd won 8 Slams by the age of 19 whereas Serena had only won one at that age.

Discuss.

Ridiculous. Seles was the second best of her generation behind Graf. Serena is the best of generation bar none. How can the second best of one generation be considered greater than the best of another generation?

It's not just about the slams. It never was. A lot of people considered Lenglen the greatest of the first half of the 20th century despite having a lot less slams than Wills.

A lot of people also thought Connolly was in GOAT discussions despite not having the longevity to back herself against others.

You can only be the best of your generation. Serena is and therefore, she is in GOAT discussion regardless of how many slams she wins. End of.

AcesHigh
Dec 26th, 2012, 04:13 PM
How can the second best of one generation be considered greater than the best of another generation?

Really?

Nadal > anyone from the 80s or 70s and he's only the second best of his generation.
It's not about being the best of your generation even though you keep touting that around like it's fact.

Sam L
Dec 26th, 2012, 11:07 PM
Really?

Nadal > anyone from the 80s or 70s and he's only the second best of his generation.
It's not about being the best of your generation even though you keep touting that around like it's fact.

And you keep touting how Serena is NOT part of GOAT discussions around like it's fact when she is. But again, you like her right but just you are really biased against her. :lol: Her game is just "brute force". :lol:

crazillo
Dec 26th, 2012, 11:29 PM
Serena has been ranked at 6 in a list of the greatest female players ever. Seles was at No. 7.

http://www.tennisnet.com/deutschland/welttennis/damen/Die-tennisnet-com-Bestenliste-Platz-1-der-Damen-Martina-Navratilova/4537350

Serena is overrated because she is a current player. She will be discussed differently in ten year's time UNLESS she will retire with 20 slams.

tennisbum79
Dec 27th, 2012, 12:01 AM
NO. There is no case in my estimation.
Serena has more singles, more doubles, more olympics.
I don't know how you begin making this case.

One of the quesion that should be ask about Seles and her contemporary is.
Would Graf have been as great as she is now considered to be had Seles not been stabbed in the prime and still ascendency of her career?

But that is a topic for another thread. What we can be sure of, is Seles would have more GS than 8, and Graf would have fewer than her current 22 GS singles

GAGAlady
Dec 27th, 2012, 01:09 AM
I find it hilarious that Serena is being criticized at all when she has proved how good she is these last few years. Sure, for most of her career she could be labelled a ball bashing part timer who never fulfilled her promise but she's really proved that she is serious she's full time and she is fulfilling everything she could fulfill and do what she was destined to accomplish. Jealousy that there own players crumbled under injury standings or excuses of whatever kind is there own problem. Serena nearly died too. She she get fat and cry about it and write a book sobbing about how life is too hard to go on? No she got fit and worked on her game and beat the shit out of every other female on your worth beating.

That's the difference between monica Seles and Serena Williams. Serena didn't become a victim she became a bigger champion, seles? She gave up and got fat, her own choice... She made her own fate after the stabbing and she could of easily gotten a trainer taken the bad and made it fuel but she couldn't....that's not anyone's problem but her own really...

RenaPova
Dec 27th, 2012, 01:13 AM
I think it's unfair to say Serena fans just ignore the slam counts, there was a lot less competition in earlier rounds at grand slams when Seles played so even if she won more slams there would still be the argument for Serena being greater. It's important also to note that Serena has displayed greater tennis than any other player in history and that's what makes her a very strong GOAT contender despite the fact that a few other players have better numbers (but again, competition was much weaker back then)

GAGAlady
Dec 27th, 2012, 01:15 AM
People who support the victim mentality only encourage people to give up and be rewarded for giving up,,,life's hard people die get hurt and suffer , we can choose to lie down and cry and tell everyone how life is so hard and poor me and become a shadows of what we used to be or we can choose to toughen up take it on the chin do some soul searching and get on with it..., everyone has hard times. Serena had a very hard time she almost died seles got stabbed and while this is a disgusting action by a mentally dereanged man she was fortunate enough nt to end up in intensive care close to death as Serena did. The point being Serena got past it and got better. That shows right there shes far tough than Seles was. I loved Monica but seriously, she gave up on her career after the first life challenge..., she got fat and no excuses she didn't rise up to the challenges serenanmanged to do... Explain that people?

kiwifan
Dec 27th, 2012, 02:05 AM
no.

slamchamp
Dec 27th, 2012, 02:24 AM
Sharapova is the pigeon of every decent player she comes across, please get her name out of this thread.

She has a career slam..not many champions can say that so her name deserves to be in ANY thread...idiot

Dominic
Dec 27th, 2012, 02:43 AM
Serena is overrated because she is a current player. She will be discussed differently in ten year's time UNLESS she will retire with 20 slams.

definitely this

dsanders06
Dec 27th, 2012, 02:44 AM
Would Graf have been as great as she is now considered to be had Seles not been stabbed in the prime and still ascendency of her career?

But that is a topic for another thread. What we can be sure of, is Seles would have more GS than 8, and Graf would have fewer than her current 22 GS singles

Been waiting for someone to make this argument :lol:

If we're playing the "what if Seles wasn't stabbed" card when comparing Monica to Steffi, then it also applies to comparisons between Monica and Serena. In other words, if we're penalising Graf 8 Slams (it would need to be atleast 8 for her to have less than Serena), then logic dictates that Monica would have won those 8 Slams, giving her a total of 17 - more than Serena. :wavey: Either the numbers are always definitive when comparing two players' legacies or they're not, you don't get to put an asterisk and say a certain player would've won more Slams when comparing them to a player you dislike, yet then turn around and claim the numbers are definitive when comparing that very same player to one of your favourites.

I think it's unfair to say Serena fans just ignore the slam counts, [b]there was a lot less competition in earlier rounds at grand slams when Seles played ...

Not this again :lol: Is the fact the top players win early rounds less easily than they used to a sign of the competition being greater, or a sign of the top players being less consistently brilliant than in past generations? Certainly ATP commentators all claim that the Big 4 sailing through the early rounds so easily is a sign of them being so great, rather than the rest of the field being weaker than it used to be

It's important also to note that Serena has displayed greater tennis than any other player in history

Again, by what quantifiable measure? Steffi Graf at her best won her matches more emphatically than Serena does, and her best seasons are much better than Serena's best seasons :shrug:

tennisbum79
Dec 27th, 2012, 02:50 AM
I truly feel sorry for you, you go out of your way to hate all day and night long. So sad, you should try to find something positive in your life. :tears:
Have you noticed Domenic is now hiding behind agreeing with posters critical of Serena, whether the criticism has merit or not.

Nicolás89
Dec 27th, 2012, 02:58 AM
So the ATP has fused with the WTA now? :lol: Everything on the ATP is irrelevant to WTA related topics. :shrug: Also haven't basically all commentators (males mostly) agreed on how weak the field was back in Seles / Graf days? :lol:

tennisbum79
Dec 27th, 2012, 03:00 AM
Been waiting for someone to make this argument :lol:

If we're playing the "what if Seles wasn't stabbed" card when comparing Monica to Steffi, then it also applies to comparisons between Monica and Serena. In other words, if we're penalising Graf 8 Slams (it would need to be atleast 8 for her to have less than Serena), then logic dictates that Monica would have won those 8 Slams, giving her a total of 17 - more than Serena. :wavey: Either the numbers are always definitive when comparing two players' legacies or they're not, you don't get to put an asterisk and say a certain player would've won more Slams when comparing them to a player you dislike, yet then turn around and claim the numbers are definitive when comparing that very same player to one of your favourites.
:shrug:
"what if Seles wasn't stabbed" card , I am sorry, but this is not a card.
This did really happen . And it did when Monica was in her ascendency.

Monica is not being penalized, she is being evaluated on her record.
I specifically stated what could have been if she was not stabed. And I said, we would never know, but had she not been stabbed, Monical would have won more than 8 Grand Slam given the moment she had, and Steffi will have won fewer than 22.
Finally, I added it was a topic for another thread.

Stonerpova
Dec 27th, 2012, 03:06 AM
In my deluded mind Seles is the best ever. But in reality, no.

GAGAlady
Dec 27th, 2012, 03:13 AM
Seles was never the best even at her best in today's world she wouldn't even be winning slams at the rate she was winning them when she was considered the best. That's my opinion but people are being ridiculous with there praise of Seles and the way they make up these fantasy scenarios. Why don't I add fantasy to my favs career? Hell if CAPRIATI " hadn't done coke" she would have won 15 grand slams and beaten both graff and Seles. It didn't happen and it probably wouldn't have happened either but what the hell!!!

Sam L
Dec 27th, 2012, 03:18 AM
Seles was never the best even at her best in today's world she wouldn't even be winning slams at the rate she was winning them when she was considered the best. That's my opinion but people are being ridiculous with there praise of Seles and the way they make up these fantasy scenarios. Why don't I add fantasy to my favs career? Hell if CAPRIATI " hadn't done coke" she would have won 15 grand slams and beaten both graff and Seles. It didn't happen and it probably wouldn't have happened either but what the hell!!!
But there is no proof of Capriati having done any sort of domination in the way Seles dominated in the early 90s by winning 8/12 slams and being No. 1 for over a year and a half. Few women have dominated like that except the likes of Graf, Navratilova, Court, Connolly.

It's silly to talk about what-ifs but in Seles's case it's not entirely unreasonable.

Mary Cherry.
Dec 27th, 2012, 03:38 AM
Greatness isn't measured by "What if"s

tennisbum79
Dec 27th, 2012, 03:59 AM
In my deluded mind Seles is the best ever. But in reality, no.
:lol:So what mindset are you in most often? The first or the latter?:lol:
Your response would help posters deduce how you arrive at judgment most often

Kooyong
Dec 27th, 2012, 04:11 AM
No!

There are many things that need to be considered and whilst in Monica case she faced a sad and unusual effect on her career but even so she never regained the same level of play after the terrible events of 93.

Serena has made several comebacks from serious injuries and yet has continued to get better with age. I think Serena looks fitter and stronger now than she did five years ago and as long as she is healthy and wants it she will be hard to beat.

Serena has a more well balanced game than Monica, a bigger serve and better at the net than Monica.

Monica never adapted as the game changed whilst Serena has played though several eras while maintaining an outstanding run of success at the slams.

Stonerpova
Dec 27th, 2012, 04:11 AM
:lol:So what mindset are you in most often? The first or the latter?:lol:
Your response would help posters deduce how you arrive at judgment most often

I try to be logical most of the time, try being the operative word :lol:

Vincey!
Dec 27th, 2012, 04:14 AM
I guess it could be possible. That being said we'll never know since there are alot of IFs in Seles' case. Who knows what her career would have turned out to be even without being stabbed or injured. One thing is sure tho, Seles had a better two handed forehand than Serena :)

Kooyong
Dec 27th, 2012, 04:20 AM
I guess it could be possible. That being said we'll never know since there are alot of IFs in Seles' case. Who knows what her career would have turned out to be even without being stabbed or injured. One thing is sure tho, Seles had a better two handed forehand than Serena :)

Thinking about Monica and What If is sad for Monica was on the way to being one of the greats of the game.

And yes Monica has a better two handed forward than Serena and anyone else that has ever played the game.

tennisbum79
Dec 27th, 2012, 04:29 AM
I try to be logical most of the time, try being the operative word :lol:
Oohhhkay.
You might want to publish a Griffin primer/reader :lol::lol:

VeeJJ
Dec 27th, 2012, 07:17 AM
What the fuck in Christ is happening here? :facepalm:

Serenita
Dec 27th, 2012, 07:35 AM
Have you noticed Domenic is now hiding behind agreeing with posters critical of Serena, whether the criticism has merit or not.

It is striking that someone can fill their days with so much negativity.

Dominic
Dec 27th, 2012, 04:03 PM
Have you noticed Domenic is now hiding behind agreeing with posters critical of Serena, whether the criticism has merit or not.

:lol: Like I'm ever afraid to express what I think anout Servena. That poster just said exactly what I thought there.

Diesel
Dec 27th, 2012, 04:09 PM
no.

Basically.

Upgraded
Dec 27th, 2012, 04:12 PM
Seles case is complicated, what if Serena got stabbed with only 5 slams won ? Would she have 15 slams nowadays ?

tennisbum79
Dec 27th, 2012, 04:21 PM
Seles case is complicated, what if Serena got stabbed with only 5 slams won ? Would she have 15 slams nowadays ?
Then Seles would be considered greater than Serena. Simple

iWill
Dec 27th, 2012, 04:29 PM
People who support the victim mentality only encourage people to give up and be rewarded for giving up,,,life's hard people die get hurt and suffer , we can choose to lie down and cry and tell everyone how life is so hard and poor me and become a shadows of what we used to be or we can choose to toughen up take it on the chin do some soul searching and get on with it..., everyone has hard times. Serena had a very hard time she almost died seles got stabbed and while this is a disgusting action by a mentally dereanged man she was fortunate enough nt to end up in intensive care close to death as Serena did. The point being Serena got past it and got better. That shows right there shes far tough than Seles was. I loved Monica but seriously, she gave up on her career after the first life challenge..., she got fat and no excuses she didn't rise up to the challenges serenanmanged to do... Explain that people?

Although I agree with the sentiment I don't think it is a fair point that you used to come to that conclusion. Serena is tougher than Seles, IMHO, but Seles was as tough as they come. She had to deal with the mental anguish of being stabbed at her job basically. There is something very sick and scary about a person/fan having many opportunities to do harm to a celebrity or in this case a professional athlete. She is constantly receiving attention from the media and exposure to millions of people by competing on the tour. Mentally Monica had to get over that and I believe she did the sad part however is that fan took a lot away from Seles. The Grand slam titles she would have won are one thing but she lost her peace of mind and the focus she would need to continue playing.

Being stabbed in the line of duty and having to make a comeback after that to me is unimaginable, but the fact that she did still comeback shows just how tough Monica Seles always was.

heavyhorse
Dec 27th, 2012, 04:35 PM
But there is no proof of Capriati having done any sort of domination in the way Seles dominated in the early 90s by winning 8/12 slams and being No. 1 for over a year and a half. Few women have dominated like that except the likes of Graf, Navratilova, Court, Connolly.

It's silly to talk about what-ifs but in Seles's case it's not entirely unreasonable.

Exactly. It's not unreasonable at all. For god's sake she won 8 GS titles before she was even 20. She had taken 3 French titles from Graf (while Graf was well in her peak form and had been dominating for a period of time) and Seles was only 16 (then 17, 18 respectively).

Show me another teenager who has dominated tennis THAT much? Seles never reached her peak, that's why the debate goes on til this day.

I don't even see the point of arguing about this considering most of TF would probably think Serena could bagel God on Centre Court any day of the week under any conditions. :rolleyes:

tennisbum79
Dec 27th, 2012, 04:39 PM
:lol: Like I'm ever afraid to express what I think anout Servena. That poster just said exactly what I thought there.
I did not say you were an idiot.
I think you have come to realize that whenever you "express what I think anout Servena" in a thread, you put the said thread in danger of being closed.
Surely you want keep the conversation going, so you hold your fire and agree with others with less strident attacks.

Dominic
Dec 27th, 2012, 04:42 PM
Ok whatever you say bud :lol:

iWill
Dec 27th, 2012, 04:49 PM
Exactly. It's not unreasonable at all. For god's sake she won 8 GS titles before she was even 20. She had taken 3 French titles from Graf (while Graf was well in her peak form and had been dominating for a period of time) and Seles was only 16 (then 17, 18 respectively).

Show me another teenager who has dominated tennis THAT much? Seles never reached her peak, that's why the debate goes on til this day.

I don't even see the point of arguing about this considering most of TF would probably think Serena could bagel God on Centre Court any day of the week under any conditions. :rolleyes:

I mean with that serve...:tape:

I'm a diehard Serena fan but I think Seles would have been greater than Graf had she not been stabbed and no one will convince me otherwise. To me the slam count Steffi has is inflated. She was great and most players of her day couldn't touch her, but I don't believe she was THAT much better than her primary rival Monica.


That being said I ALREADY think Serena is better than Graf. This discussion of "What Ifs" normally is futile with most players but with Seles she was on a trajectory we had never seen before, and it is so deeply disappointing that we never got to see her develop undeterred. I think you can argue for her being better than Serena but unfortunately the numbers won't help in this case.

heavyhorse
Dec 27th, 2012, 05:02 PM
I mean with that serve...:tape:

I'm a diehard Serena fan but I think Seles would have been greater than Graf had she not been stabbed and no one will convince me otherwise. To me the slam count Steffi has is inflated. She was great and most players of her day couldn't touch her, but I don't believe she was THAT much better than her primary rival Monica.


That being said I ALREADY think Serena is better than Graf. This discussion of "What Ifs" normally is futile with most players but with Seles she was on a trajectory we had never seen before, and it is so deeply disappointing that we never got to see her develop undeterred. I think you can argue for her being better than Serena but unfortunately the numbers won't help in this case.

That's why it's disappointing most people are questioning the OP or treating the question like a joke. I think it could be a pretty interesting debate :shrug:

I agree with you on Graf. She had stunning play with huge determination to win but it was Graf and the seven dwarfs back when she was reigning and that's how I think she got a bulk of those GS. :shrug: The fact she struggled so badly with a teenage Monica Seles proves she wouldn't be able to cope very well with a fully developed Capriati, OR of course Serena (if she was playing alongside Graf back in Graf's peak).

I know Graf was out of her peak and wasn't in amazing form when she was playing the Williams sisters, but I remember reading that after playing Serena in Hong Kong(?) and playing Venus in Miami(?) she decided to get new hitting partners :lol: Not sure how true it is but I wouldn't put it past her - they completely murdered her on the hard court surface.

HRHoliviasmith
Dec 27th, 2012, 05:20 PM
http://themidnightalliance.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/ronaldo-laugh.gif
i used to :inlove: that guy. memories. :tears:

iWill
Dec 27th, 2012, 05:21 PM
That's why it's disappointing most people are questioning the OP or treating the question like a joke. I think it could be a pretty interesting debate :shrug:

I agree with you on Graf. She had stunning play with huge determination to win but it was Graf and the seven dwarfs back when she was reigning and that's how I think she got a bulk of those GS. :shrug: The fact she struggled so badly with a teenage Monica Seles proves she wouldn't be able to cope very well with a fully developed Capriati, OR of course Serena (if she was playing alongside Graf back in Graf's peak).

I know Graf was out of her peak and wasn't in amazing form when she was playing the Williams sisters, but I remember reading that after playing Serena in Hong Kong(?) and playing Venus in Miami(?) she decided to get new hitting partners :lol: Not sure how true it is but I wouldn't put it past her - they completely murdered her on the hard court surface.

Well given their track record on this forum its no wonder people can't engage in a genuine debate without getting all personal. He does have a point though. If we can argue Serena>Graf then we can also discuss Seles>Serena.

Yeah it was definitely Graf vs. the Seven dwarfs lol! Besides Navratilova, Sabatini, Sanchez-Vicario, Seles, and Mary Pierce Graf won virtually everything from 1987-1997 when Hingis finally started to win slams. This can either show "great" Graf was and that is partially the case but the other side is that no one else was as good as she was besides Seles. Just look at Navratilova's numbers she only finished with 18 singles slams and her major competitor, Evert, took the very same number. No one is close to Graf in her era or remotely close. That is why that 24 needs a little * next to it IMHO.

Look at Serena's major competitors through the years they all have won multiple slams been ranked number 1 and had very good HOF careers. Yet Serena has beat them all in route to a slam title and has a winning H2H against them all.

Venus (8)
Henin (8)
Hingis (5)
Clijsters (4)
Capriati (3)
Davenport (3)

None of Graf's contemporaries comes close to the numbers Venus and Henin put up except for Monica. Serena is still the best of this bunch and Graf of her's but Monica never got to truly challenge Steffi after that stabbing. Again its a tough case to argue for Monica but she would have more than the 9 she finished with.

GAGAlady
Dec 27th, 2012, 05:44 PM
But there is no proof of Capriati having done any sort of domination in the way Seles dominated in the early 90s by winning 8/12 slams and being No. 1 for over a year and a half. Few women have dominated like that except the likes of Graf, Navratilova, Court, Connolly.

It's silly to talk about what-ifs but in Seles's case it's not entirely unreasonable.

It's no doubt amazing what Seles did do to win 8 slams no doubt she deserved those wins and was the best player for those specific slams and at that specific time. However as tennis does do it advances along and gets better and more physically demanding and demands more from said athletes to keep up to maintain what they achieved and unfortunately for her Monica seles was either unwilling or unable to do that. We can argue about why that I's but it happened, she never reproduced those results in the first half of her career and she wasnt able to perform at the level expected of her. I would argue that as a tennis player she wasn't even that impressive in terms of her physical conditioning the first time around but she was young and compensated with her ability and talent but when she got older that ability only got her so far and the fact that she was fat and out of shape the vast majority of her years on tour screwed her over. That's what happened and that's how her career ended. That's her own doing and she knows it. You can't make up scenarios in your head and think " oh gee if shed been fit!!" she never was fit and she never was the best athelet. That was graff. I don't even like graff but she at least put in the work to be fit...

GAGAlady
Dec 27th, 2012, 05:57 PM
People keep making excuses about one event in someone's life. If we all just let one thing like that stop us from our potential all we are doing is letting that person or even win and the only loser in you And your life. I'm sure Monica is kicking herself thinki why didn't I sort myself out sooner? People talk about " the grand slams she lost out on" who cares? How many grand slams after that did she compete in? She could of won those too. You people are missing the point which is you make your life how u want too... U choose to be a victim and fail or to rise up and conquer the bad . Plain and simple. Dwelling and lingering and sticking yourself in a hole mentally is a sickness and a mental illness that only u yourself conjure up . Yes she was stabbed yes that's bad... But everything else that followed was avoidable it was a byproduct of her doing and that's not anyone's fault . U can only blame the individual, it's like someone who's in a car accident the break there leg get better and blame everyone else for why they can't work and start doing drugs as a way to medicate because they choose to feel sorry for themselves years after the fact... Get in with ur life and stop complaining... Life's beauty full u just have to show up..,

powerpuff27
Dec 27th, 2012, 06:21 PM
No there isnt. To argue so you have to argue Seles being stabbed in anyway impacted Serenas success and career, which is an almost impossible and illogical argument to make. Graf and to a lesser degree Sanchez Vicario are the only ones whose success is tainted by the Seles stabbing, and Serena and Venus are the last two who would be.

powerpuff27
Dec 27th, 2012, 06:23 PM
she wouldn't be able to cope very well with a fully developed Capriati

I am not a Graf fan but I nearly choked at that. Graf is 10-1 vs Capriati, and by 1993 the early blooming Capriati was already the same age Graf was when she won the French Open and became #1 and was still losing in slam after slam to Graf in straight sets. No version of Capriati would be remote problem (other than the very odd fluke like the Olympic final) for even semi prime Graf. Graf also won their last match when Graf was 3 something like 6-0, 6-1 too, lol! The only top player Capriati was any problem for was Serena it seemed, the rest a piece of cake, and Graf probably found her easiest of all.

JarkaFish
Dec 27th, 2012, 06:30 PM
That's why it's disappointing most people are questioning the OP or treating the question like a joke. I think it could be a pretty interesting debate :shrug:

I agree with you on Graf. She had stunning play with huge determination to win but it was Graf and the seven dwarfs back when she was reigning and that's how I think she got a bulk of those GS. :shrug: The fact she struggled so badly with a teenage Monica Seles proves she wouldn't be able to cope very well with a fully developed Capriati, OR of course Serena (if she was playing alongside Graf back in Graf's peak).



OH PLEASE

Capriati would be nothing more than another Graf pigeon, just like she already is.

Igorche
Dec 27th, 2012, 06:31 PM
OH PLEASE

Capriati would be nothing more than another Graf pigeon, just like she already is.

I think that you are pigeon :help:

JarkaFish
Dec 27th, 2012, 06:32 PM
I think that you are pigeon :help:

:rolleyes:

powerpuff27
Dec 27th, 2012, 06:33 PM
Well given their track record on this forum its no wonder people can't engage in a genuine debate without getting all personal. He does have a point though. If we can argue Serena>Graf then we can also discuss Seles>Serena.

Yeah it was definitely Graf vs. the Seven dwarfs lol! Besides Navratilova, Sabatini, Sanchez-Vicario, Seles, and Mary Pierce Graf won virtually everything from 1987-1997 when Hingis finally started to win slams.

In the Navratilova era besides Evert and Mandlikova there was nobody who could even play professional tennis in the top 10 most of the time, so she is the last one who should be talking about dwarves. The Graf era easily had far more depth than the Navratilova one, not that this was remotedly hard to do, while the early part of the Serena era of course had much more than either one. From 1978 Wimbledon until 1987 U.S Open when Navratilova won all but 1 of her slams Navratilova and Evert won all the slams except for 4 by Mandlikova (only 2 both Evert and Navratilova played in), 1 by 17 year old Graf, and 2 by 16 or 17 year old Austin, discounting the joke Australians which Chris O Neill and Barbara Jordan won which everyones know werent real slams, and those two arent even top 40 players of the era, so where is this better depth. In fact 85 U.S Open and 87 Australian were the only 2 slams won by a player over 20 not named Navratilova and Evert that whole decade, and it took almost that whole time to happen, so if the Graf era lacked depth the Navratilova era was even more dire.

The Serena vs Graf vs Seles debate is interesting. I would say there are only 5% of people who would rate Seles above Serena at this point, about 15% who would rate Seles above Graf which is still very small but more than Seles above Serena, which is ironic as probably about 90% would still rate Graf over Serena at this point. So this creates a contrast of sorts, despite Serena being considered greater than Seles by almost all at this point, there might be as many or more who rate Seles over Graf than Serena over Graf at this point, and while Graf being considered better than Serena by the vast majority at this point, there are probably fewer who rank Serena beneath Seles as who would rate Graf beneath Seles. I would venture to guess there are some who even rank all of Serena *over Seles, Seles over Graf, and Graf over Serena, which in a sense is impossible but it is still how some probably view things. I guess it makes in almost impossible to make a complete list but some dont like to make a complete list.

The thing is there is really no argument for Seles being better than Serena. Serena was not impacted at all by the Seles stabbing, unlike Graf, Serena came back stronger from adverstity than Seles did by a long ways, Serena coped and won much more even out of shape than Seles could, there isnt a feeling by many people that Seles at her best even played the game at a higher level than Serena did, or would win peak to peak either, and of course Serena is well ahead in major achievements at this point. There is a case for seeing Seles over Graf only due to her being better for a few years before the stabbing, and there could be a case for Serena being over Graf based on intangible arguments like peak level play, doubles play, lasting into her 30s way better than Graf could. Of all 3 of those combinations and the generally regarded inferior (the general consensus Graf 1st or 2nd all time, Serena 4th or 5th, Seles about 10th, so that order would reflect the generally regarded inferior) Seles being over Serena is the most impossible one to make with the least plausible things one could ever reason for Seles, even if the consensus rank is Seles way further behind Graf than either Serena behind Graf or Seles behind Serena, there are still even less that would argue Seles against Serena than Seles against Graf for the aforementioned reasons.

Igorche
Dec 27th, 2012, 06:35 PM
:cool::rolleyes:

JarkaFish
Dec 27th, 2012, 06:36 PM
I am not a Graf fan but I nearly choked at that. Graf is 10-1 vs Capriati, and by 1993 the early blooming Capriati was already the same age Graf was when she won the French Open and became #1 and was still losing in slam after slam to Graf in straight sets. No version of Capriati would be remote problem (other than the very odd fluke like the Olympic final) for even semi prime Graf. Graf also won their last match when Graf was 3 something like 6-0, 6-1 too, lol! The only top player Capriati was any problem for was Serena it seemed, the rest a piece of cake, and Graf probably found her easiest of all.

So true.

doomsday
Dec 27th, 2012, 06:37 PM
Certainly is for Maria :lol:

RenaPova
Dec 27th, 2012, 06:56 PM
Not this again :lol: Is the fact the top players win early rounds less easily than they used to a sign of the competition being greater, or a sign of the top players being less consistently brilliant than in past generations? Certainly ATP commentators all claim that the Big 4 sailing through the early rounds so easily is a sign of them being so great, rather than the rest of the field being weaker than it used to be



Again, by what quantifiable measure? Steffi Graf at her best won her matches more emphatically than Serena does, and her best seasons are much better than Serena's best seasons :shrug:

But you're trying to make everything quantifiable by using scorelines and numbers but watching the matches, it's pretty clear the competition was very weak, and again, watching matches it's clear to see that Serena's tennis at her best has never been matched by any of the other girls in history

powerpuff27
Dec 27th, 2012, 06:58 PM
The other funny thing is even just in peak play one could argue all of Graf over Serena, Serena over Seles, and Seles over Graf if they want to. First off even using the most simplistic of logic, if of the 3 major surfaces one says Seles at her best is over Graf on clay and hard courts based on the early 90s, and one argued Serena over Seles on both grass and hard courts, one could still argue Graf over both Serena on clay (Seles above Serena on clay too so no conflict there) and grass (Graf way over Seles on grass too, so no conflict there). One could imagine a hypothetical Serena has the edge over Seles peak to peak at 3 of 4 slams, Seles over Graf at 3 of 4, and Graf over Serena at 2 of 4 but having the big edge of playing more regularly. That is even before considering the totally different matchups all 3 present vs either.

For the record in terms of just peak play I would rate them Serena over Graf over Seles if had to pick even if pure stats (W-L, slam domination, and other stats in their best years) would say Graf way ahead of the other two, and Seles a bit over Serena. Grafs peak years for me would be 88, 89, 95, and 96, so how she compared vs Seles in the early 90s would be meaningless to me when comparing them peak to peak, and thus would even be meaningless to the 3 way comparision hypothetical I went by for those who believe Seles was better than peak Graf just based on the early 90s. Graf in 89 and 95 for instance lost 2 matches, and in 91 for instance lost about 8 matches, and none of those to Seles, so it doesnt take an einstein to see the difference. In overall greatness my personal ranking would be just like the consensus Graf then Serena then Seles, but I would have Serena much closer to Graf than many people would, and she probably is closer to passing her in my mind than she is in many peoples.

Natural Joe
Dec 27th, 2012, 07:06 PM
Hm...forehand27 and powerpuff27 are quite similar posters, no? :scratch:

powerpuff27
Dec 27th, 2012, 07:09 PM
But you're trying to make everything quantifiable by using scorelines and numbers but watching the matches, it's pretty clear the competition was very weak, and again, watching matches it's clear to see that Serena's tennis at her best has never been matched by any of the other girls in history

From 1983 until 2003 the competition in the WTA got gradually better almost all the time, until starting to go gradually down since 2003, so Serena easily had more competition for awhile than either Graf or Seles (not to even mention Navratilova who had way worse competition overall than even Graf or Seles had, other than Evert mostly a bunch of bums who could barely play tennis). The double edged sword is the competition for Serena these days is not as strong as her competition once was.

edificio
Dec 27th, 2012, 08:00 PM
No. Simple math dictates.

GAGAlady
Dec 28th, 2012, 06:45 AM
For those who claim Jennifer would get her ass kicked by graff in 2001 2002 form fail to realize that that Jennifer was vastly stronger and mentally tougher than Jennifer CAPRIATI of 1993... It's not even a competition Jen of 2001 would of double bageled Jen off 1992/93... So please give me a break

GAGAlady
Dec 28th, 2012, 06:46 AM
And graff wouldn't have overpowered Jen like she did in the past. It would be an even battle probably three sets...

NashaMasha
Dec 28th, 2012, 06:16 PM
Hm...forehand27 and powerpuff27 are quite similar posters, no? :scratch:

yes :)

iWill
Feb 1st, 2013, 06:37 PM
LOL! I forgot this was another dsanders06 thread to "discuss" Graf v. Serena. Shame this one didn't get 20+ pages.....BUMP :eek:

Olórin
Feb 1st, 2013, 06:43 PM
How does anyone take this pitiful troll seriously :lol:

Londoner
Feb 1st, 2013, 09:37 PM
I can't believe anyone thinks 'yes'!

miffedmax
Feb 1st, 2013, 09:42 PM
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-OPVrYzSjxeE/TjZBELcnryI/AAAAAAAAEIg/jPGjHMWx9Ps/s1600/Dracula+58+Van+Helsing+Stakes+Lucy.jpg

There's only one thing to do when a thread like this comes back from the dead.