PDA

View Full Version : Why is Venus not so good on AO hard court?


Lin Lin
Dec 21st, 2012, 07:15 AM
Venus at:
USO:62-12;
AO:39-12;
FO:41-15;


Wib:71-11.

:confused::confused:even wrose than French Open?:confused:

Petkorazzi
Dec 21st, 2012, 07:19 AM
:spit: Please do share how 41-15 is better than 39-12.

Lin Lin
Dec 21st, 2012, 07:26 AM
:spit: Please do share how 41-15 is better than 39-12.

OK,she has more wins at FO;;);)
She is expecxted to be as good as at USO hard court,and she is generally not good at clay;);)

GAGAlady
Dec 21st, 2012, 08:40 AM
Slw surfaces always tone down her game and she makes more mistakes than serena

vixter
Dec 21st, 2012, 08:43 AM
It might be the time of the year moreso than the surface. Venus is rusty until Wimbledon. :shrug:

bobito
Dec 21st, 2012, 08:45 AM
Because the courts aren't green, don't grow when you water them and don't require mowing.

Pops Maellard
Dec 21st, 2012, 09:40 AM
She did well at AO years ago, making SF and F in her peak years. She made the 2008 QF too but was injured (and that other QF in 2010 which didn't happen :o). It's not some weird allergy she's developed to the tournament :lol:.

I bet the intense heat doesn't help her Sjogrens - before that started popping up she did fine at the AO.

bandabou
Dec 21st, 2012, 10:46 AM
Slow surfaces always her achilles-heel...and she just didn't adapt technically, like Serena was capable of doing.

Queen_Vee_92
Dec 21st, 2012, 12:19 PM
Slower surface than USO exposes more technical flaws forces her to hit more balls and therefore more errors.
2 weeks into the season. Venus unlike Serena works into a season and often doesn't start playing her best tennis straight away.
Hot, Dry conditions possibly tire her out even quicker given her syndrome.
Confidence player who doesn't seem to feels as comfortable or have the same connection with the venue and event as at somewhere like Wimbledon, often giving the impression not that she's not trying, but that a loss here isn't the end of the world for her.


Loads of reasons tbh :lol:

Although given her quality and success elsewhere it is surprising that 1998-2003 she didnt manage to sneak a win in somewhere. 2002 had she not screwed up her knee in hindsight looks the biggest missed opportunity, but unfortunately it looks beyond her now :( hopefully 10 years on from her last final here she proves me wrong!

Geisha
Dec 21st, 2012, 12:51 PM
1998 QF - l. Davenport
1999 QF - l. Davenport
2001 SF - l. Hingis
2002 QF - l. Seles
2003 F - l. S.Williams

That's some great consistency in her early/peak years. The only real surprise was 2002. In 2003, she finally played great at the tournmanent, but ran into GOAT Serena.

MLF
Dec 21st, 2012, 03:29 PM
Couple of years she's been injured and played, but mainly she comes in pretty rusty and not ready and these courts are too slow for her to be rusty on. I like that she's at least playing Hopman Cup this year.

Vincey!
Dec 21st, 2012, 04:14 PM
Slower surface, hot condition, start of the year. All factors that affect Venus in my opinion.

sweetadri06
Dec 21st, 2012, 04:33 PM
It never used to be a problem until recent years. She doesn't have enough preparation and the courts don't favor her playing style. She's playing Hopman cup so maybe that will change this year.

In The Zone
Dec 21st, 2012, 05:54 PM
I think it is her match play. As she has gotten older, she has relied on match play to get into form. You never see her tank events like Serena because it means so much more for her in the long term. In January, Venus has nothing to rely on and she is more likely to throw in a dud.

Sammo
Dec 21st, 2012, 05:55 PM
Because you touch yourself at night Lin Lin

Foxy
Dec 21st, 2012, 06:34 PM
I never thought winning the AO was on the top of Venus' list. Even when Venus ruled tennis and when Serena was having head issues and was missing a lot of tennis, Venus never sought to make the AO title the top of her list of GSs she wanted to win. Venus ruled tennis when Jen Cap won the AO and the FO, but she just didn't make it a priority to win.

Venus basically started her year with Wimbledon and the USO. She always said that winning Wimbledon was the title she coveted most because of the fact that it's the hardest title to win and because it was the Venus Rosewater Dish. She had more of a personal and spiritual connection to Wimbledon and that trophy.

Now that Venus is up in age and is suffering with her illness, I doubt if she'll ever win the AO title. If she does, it'll surprise me, but she's never made it a priority to win it. Venus could have been won the AO way back in the early 2000s when she ruled tennis, but she never made it a priority to win it. She just showed up out of duty.

DomenicDemaria
Dec 21st, 2012, 10:38 PM
I never thought winning the AO was on the top of Venus' list. Even when Venus ruled tennis and when Serena was having head issues and was missing a lot of tennis, Venus never sought to make the AO title the top of her list of GSs she wanted to win. Venus ruled tennis when Jen Cap won the AO and the FO, but she just didn't make it a priority to win.

Venus basically started her year with Wimbledon and the USO. She always said that winning Wimbledon was the title she coveted most because of the fact that it's the hardest title to win and because it was the Venus Rosewater Dish. She had more of a personal and spiritual connection to Wimbledon and that trophy.

Now that Venus is up in age and is suffering with her illness, I doubt if she'll ever win the AO title. If she does, it'll surprise me, but she's never made it a priority to win it. Venus could have been won the AO way back in the early 2000s when she ruled tennis, but she never made it a priority to win it. She just showed up out of duty.

:lol: I love how delusional Williams sisters fans are. When they lose they weren't trying or didn't try. Maybe Venus wasn't good enough to win. Even injury would be a better excuse. 2002 and 2003 were her best shots but both were ruined by injury.

dagamezbest
Dec 21st, 2012, 11:03 PM
Easy..Venus has been so successfull on grass and fast hardcourts because she has a competitve edge against most of her opponents since she can run balls down and her shots penetrate the court. Rebound ace makes her shots less punishing and bounce high enough to give players more time to get to her shots. As well as the fact that she lacks tactical strategy in her game which makes her create errors when balls keep coming back.

Pops Maellard
Dec 21st, 2012, 11:29 PM
she never made it a priority to win it. She just showed up out of duty.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7416uzPN31ryq1ato1_500.gif

Really now?

JarkaFish
Dec 21st, 2012, 11:59 PM
Guys I hear Venus could've cured cancer and AIDS easily back in the early 00s if she just made it her priority, darn that Venus.

dencod16
Dec 22nd, 2012, 12:07 AM
Dumbest thread ever, sorry. But how is 41-15 better than 39-12, in no ones right mind is that true. 41-15 record is 73% of matches won, 39-12 is 76.5% of matches won. she played more french opens that is why she has more wins there. ANd Venus has reached 5 QF - 1 SF - 1 F in AUssie and 4 QF - 0 SF - 1 F in French. Such a troll thread please close this.

dynamoRockstarr
Dec 22nd, 2012, 12:53 AM
Easy..Venus has been so successfull on grass and fast hardcourts because she has a competitve edge against most of her opponents since she can run balls down and her shots penetrate the court. Rebound ace makes her shots less punishing and bounce high enough to give players more time to get to her shots. As well as the fact that she lacks tactical strategy in her game which makes her create errors when balls keep coming back.

and now, it isn't even rebound ace, it's plexicushion :o

Lin Lin
Dec 22nd, 2012, 01:13 AM
:lol:

monri
Dec 22nd, 2012, 01:34 AM
1998 QF - l. Davenport
1999 QF - l. Davenport
2001 SF - l. Hingis
2002 QF - l. Seles
2003 F - l. S.Williams

That's some great consistency in her early/peak years. The only real surprise was 2002. In 2003, she finally played great at the tournmanent, but ran into GOAT Serena.

Venus was definitely by far the best player of the 2003 AO. She should have beaten Serena in the final.

monri
Dec 22nd, 2012, 01:37 AM
I never thought winning the AO was on the top of Venus' list. Even when Venus ruled tennis and when Serena was having head issues and was missing a lot of tennis, Venus never sought to make the AO title the top of her list of GSs she wanted to win. Venus ruled tennis when Jen Cap won the AO and the FO, but she just didn't make it a priority to win.

Venus basically started her year with Wimbledon and the USO. She always said that winning Wimbledon was the title she coveted most because of the fact that it's the hardest title to win and because it was the Venus Rosewater Dish. She had more of a personal and spiritual connection to Wimbledon and that trophy.

Now that Venus is up in age and is suffering with her illness, I doubt if she'll ever win the AO title. If she does, it'll surprise me, but she's never made it a priority to win it. Venus could have been won the AO way back in the early 2000s when she ruled tennis, but she never made it a priority to win it. She just showed up out of duty.

:help: :tape: :lol:

hingis-seles
Dec 22nd, 2012, 12:52 PM
1998 QF - l. Davenport
1999 QF - l. Davenport
2001 SF - l. Hingis
2002 QF - l. Seles
2003 F - l. S.Williams

That's some great consistency in her early/peak years. The only real surprise was 2002. In 2003, she finally played great at the tournmanent, but ran into GOAT Serena.

This. Even in her debut in 98, she lost 1-6, 7-5, 6-3 to Davenport (after taking out at the time invincible Hingis in Sydney) so she could clearly play on rebound ace.

Once she had the surgery in 2003 and took time off, her record there never recovered and the freak losses started popping up.

2004 l. Raymond
2005 l. Molik
2006 l. Pironkova
2007 DNP
2008 l. Ivanovic
2009 l. Suarez Navarro
2010 l. Na
2011 l. Petkovic
2012 ???

dsanders06
Dec 22nd, 2012, 04:17 PM
:lol: at people saying it was just after the surgery that she started playing shit. How about getting spanked by Hingis in one of her best ever seasons? Losing to washed-up Seles in 2002?

As much as her fans mythologise about her peak, the fact is that, as beastly as she was on super-quick surfaces, she was always beatable by many top 10-level opponents on slow surfaces because she didn't have durable enough technique / good enough court sense / good enough defence to survive against the elite once the rallies got extended. And that WILL be a drag on her legacy -- it's incredible to think that she only made 3 semifinals at the Australian and French COMBINED, whereas Henin made 5 semifinals at her worst Slam, Hingis made atleast 5 semifinals at every Slam bar Wimbledon, Sharapova's made the semis atleast 3 times at every Slam with years still to go -- of Venus's closest rivals in her generation, only Clijsters, with her mediocre records at RG and Wimbledon, can compare to Venus when it comes to such weak all-round Slam resumes.

oneshot
Dec 22nd, 2012, 05:13 PM
And that WILL be a drag on her legacy -- it's incredible to think that she only made 3 semifinals at the Australian and French COMBINED

Yeah that pretty much sums it up. Plus the fact that all she had to do to reach those final stages was beat near-retirement Seles, Clarisa Fernandez (who?), useless Coetzer and pre-slam Henin (who she has always owned anyways) really leaves a big fat stain in her resumé. She was indeed a beast at Wimbledon and even the USO, the fast-slams, but she was always irrelevant in the 1st 6 months of the season bar Miami.

Btw, I've noticed a lot of posters praising Venus' clay achievements... am I missing out on some TF private joke?

young_gunner913
Dec 22nd, 2012, 05:16 PM
:lol: at people saying it was just after the surgery that she started playing shit.

Is that line reserved for Martha's fanbase only?

oneshot
Dec 22nd, 2012, 05:20 PM
Is that line reserved for Martha's fanbase only?

Well, post-surgery Sharapova bombed out in the 1st round at the AO, only to make the final two years later. What's Vinas' excuse?

hingis-seles
Dec 22nd, 2012, 07:08 PM
:lol: at people saying it was just after the surgery that she started playing shit. How about getting spanked by Hingis in one of her best ever seasons? Losing to washed-up Seles in 2002?

As much as her fans mythologise about her peak, the fact is that, as beastly as she was on super-quick surfaces, she was always beatable by many top 10-level opponents on slow surfaces because she didn't have durable enough technique / good enough court sense / good enough defence to survive against the elite once the rallies got extended. And that WILL be a drag on her legacy -- it's incredible to think that she only made 3 semifinals at the Australian and French COMBINED, whereas Henin made 5 semifinals at her worst Slam, Hingis made atleast 5 semifinals at every Slam bar Wimbledon, Sharapova's made the semis atleast 3 times at every Slam with years still to go -- of Venus's closest rivals in her generation, only Clijsters, with her mediocre records at RG and Wimbledon, can compare to Venus when it comes to such weak all-round Slam resumes.

Always beatable by many top 10 players? Let's take a look at the seedings of the players she lost to pre-surgery in Melbourne:

1998: #2 Lindsay Davenport
1999: #1 Lindsay Davenport
2000: DNP
2001: #1 Martina Hingis
2002: #8 Monica Seles
2003: #1 Serena Williams

In five attempts, three losses to the #1 seed, one loss to the #2 seed and one loss to the #8 seed. Forget peak, during her entire pre-surgery career she only ONCE lost to a player not ranked in the top two in the world.

Compare that to what happens when she came back from surgery.

2004: #25 Lisa Raymond
2005: #10 Alicia Molik
2006: (-) Tsvetana Pironkova
2007: DNP
2008: #4 Ana Ivanovic
2009: (-) Carla Suarez Navarro
2010: #16 Li Na
2011: #30 Andrea Petkovic
2012: DNP

There's no comparison.

heavyhorse
Dec 22nd, 2012, 07:20 PM
Since 2005, Venus has never coped well playing under hot climates hence her lack of results at AO and FO. I honestly think that's a huge contributing factor to her losses - she gets exhausted, makes more unforced errors, and crumbles mentally. Combine this with her Sjogren's Syndrom which she has had since 2005 and you'll get bad results.

oneshot
Dec 22nd, 2012, 07:23 PM
Always beatable by many top 10 players? Let's take a look at the seedings of the players she lost to pre-surgery in Melbourne:

1998: #2 Lindsay Davenport
1999: #1 Lindsay Davenport
2000: DNP
2001: #1 Martina Hingis
2002: #8 Monica Seles
2003: #1 Serena Williams

In five attempts, three losses to the #1 seed, one loss to the #2 seed and one loss to the #8 seed. Forget peak, during her entire pre-surgery career she only ONCE lost to a player not ranked in the top two in the world.

Compare that to what happens when she came back from surgery.

2004: #25 Lisa Raymond
2005: #10 Alicia Molik
2006: (-) Tsvetana Pironkova
2007: DNP
2008: #4 Ana Ivanovic
2009: (-) Carla Suarez Navarro
2010: #16 Li Na
2011: #30 Andrea Petkovic
2012: DNP

There's no comparison.

1998: the only seed she beat was useless Spirlea in the first round.
1999: an even easier road with mugs like Dragomir and Rubin, again losing to the first decent player she faces.
2001: lost a set to MJMS (:spit:) in the 1st round, beat Mauresmo in a tight 3 setter in the 4th, an even tighter epic against Coetzer of all people, only to get thrashed by Hingis. This was the year right after she won W, USO and Olympic Gold.
2002: Hantuchova and Maleeva were her toughest opponents until she got routined by Seles after winning the 1st set :shrug:
2003: the best AO of her career, even though all she had to do was beat up on her bitches in the QFs and SFs. Played great against Serena in the final though.

heavyhorse
Dec 22nd, 2012, 07:26 PM
:lol: I love how delusional Williams sisters fans are. When they lose they weren't trying or didn't try. Maybe Venus wasn't good enough to win. Even injury would be a better excuse. 2002 and 2003 were her best shots but both were ruined by injury.

Both were ruined by having to play against her little sister in the finals. For example, she breezed through to the finals in the FO2002 in straight sets, but for some reason crumbled to Serena in the final (despite Serena having to battle through to the final that year).

JarkaFish
Dec 22nd, 2012, 07:36 PM
Both were ruined by having to play against her little sister in the finals. For example, she breezed through to the finals in the FO2002 in straight sets, but for some reason crumbled to Serena in the final (despite Serena having to battle through to the final that year).Haha, but Serena barely had to battle outside of her semis against Capriati either, which is understandable because it's Capriati, Venus on the other hand had "Clarisa Fernandez" in the SF of a slam. LOL..

They bought had really easy draws though tbh, a bit of a fluke for both that one was.

Rex59
Dec 22nd, 2012, 07:55 PM
Maybe this time "she'll play the percentages" and not hit harder, harder and harder, hard-hitting herself into self-defeat with reckless errors, creating self-made errors to dismiss herself. Throughout her career Venus has been her own worse enemy, derailing a promising, dominating career, for I've seen no women's player more talented than Venus, no one.........."ever".

hingis-seles
Dec 22nd, 2012, 08:05 PM
1998: the only seed she beat was useless Spirlea in the first round.
1999: an even easier road with mugs like Dragomir and Rubin, again losing to the first decent player she faces.
2001: lost a set to MJMS (:spit:) in the 1st round, beat Mauresmo in a tight 3 setter in the 4th, an even tighter epic against Coetzer of all people, only to get thrashed by Hingis. This was the year right after she won W, USO and Olympic Gold.
2002: Hantuchova and Maleeva were her toughest opponents until she got routined by Seles after winning the 1st set :shrug:
2003: the best AO of her career, even though all she had to do was beat up on her bitches in the QFs and SFs. Played great against Serena in the final though.

I think it was Serena who beat Spirlea in 1998 not Venus.

Anyhow, you've made my point for me. Those useless mugs are who she's been losing to post 2003 - but pre-surgery she was beating them and getting to the latter rounds where it usually took Hingis or Davenport (#1 and #2) to get rid of her.

volta
Dec 22nd, 2012, 08:50 PM
Guys I hear Venus could've cured cancer and AIDS easily back in the early 00s if she just made it her priority, darn that Venus.

True. She could also heal with a blink of an eye sjogren Her condition but she just doesn't feel like doing it because the Goddess wants the lesser girls you stan for to get their life at beating someone leagues above them. Her generosity has no bounds. Problem?

Now... which previously banned are you niece?

Haha, but Serena barely had to battle outside of her semis against Capriati either, which is understandable because it's Capriati, Venus on the other hand had "Clarisa Fernandez" in the SF of a slam. LOL..

They bought had really easy draws though tbh, a bit of a fluke for both that one was.

Who beat Kim and Dementieva (if im not mistaken) on route to her SF. Anymore questions?

JarkaFish
Dec 22nd, 2012, 08:59 PM
True. She could also heal with a blink of an eye sjogren Her condition but she just doesn't feel like doing it because the Goddess wants the lesser girls you stan for to get their life at beating someone leagues above them. Her generosity has no bounds. Problem?

Now... which previously banned are you niece?Keep deluding yourself, sweet thing.



Who beat Kim and Dementieva (if im not mistaken) on route to her SF. Anymore questions?It's called a fluke, honey.

volta
Dec 22nd, 2012, 09:47 PM
Keep deluding yourself, sweet thing.



It's called a fluke, honey.
only after you stop steaming harder than a pot of vegetables whenever you see the name williams on this board but since we all know that that's not happening since the girls have you THAT bothered i'll keep on stating the obvious and what's well known in the Universe.

Whatever you call it is irrelevant rotten cakes, the girls have the check, the money the sf and the final on their resume. I guess that's what happens when you can't pick up a racket and beat them to prevent it :hysteric:

andrewC
Dec 22nd, 2012, 09:48 PM
I'm not sure but i'd love to see her win the AO and FO before she retires :banana:

The Dawntreader
Dec 22nd, 2012, 10:23 PM
Timing. The fluctuating and gruelling conditions. The lack of a sustainable technique over 7 matches on a treacherously slow hard court. Injuries. Lack of match-play. Lack of preparation when healthy. Serena Williams.

Venus's consistency at this Slam definitely started to slide after her ab-injury in '03. Since then, she hasn't been a top 5 player at this particular Slam.

monri
Dec 22nd, 2012, 10:31 PM
:lol: at people saying it was just after the surgery that she started playing shit. How about getting spanked by Hingis in one of her best ever seasons? Losing to washed-up Seles in 2002?

As much as her fans mythologise about her peak, the fact is that, as beastly as she was on super-quick surfaces, she was always beatable by many top 10-level opponents on slow surfaces because she didn't have durable enough technique / good enough court sense / good enough defence to survive against the elite once the rallies got extended. And that WILL be a drag on her legacy -- it's incredible to think that she only made 3 semifinals at the Australian and French COMBINED, whereas Henin made 5 semifinals at her worst Slam, Hingis made atleast 5 semifinals at every Slam bar Wimbledon, Sharapova's made the semis atleast 3 times at every Slam with years still to go -- of Venus's closest rivals in her generation, only Clijsters, with her mediocre records at RG and Wimbledon, can compare to Venus when it comes to such weak all-round Slam resumes.

True. Her records at the AO and FO are absolutely dismal for a player of her standard. It's why, despite having 2 more slams than Hingis, I still rate them about equal, and despite having the same amount of slams as Henin, I still rate Henin a lot better.

Mr.Sharapova
Dec 22nd, 2012, 10:37 PM
I'm not sure but i'd love to see her win the AO and FO before she retires :banana:

http://i931.photobucket.com/albums/ad151/Milot_Sheremeti/scream-queen-confused-a.gif Trust me, You won't.

duhcity
Dec 22nd, 2012, 10:43 PM
I'd say the random losses as she moved on in her career indicates she has a need to play her way into the year. Injury aside, because clearly she's been able to play slam winning tennis after her major injuries, as she's aged she's needed more and more match practice. Even at her best, she couldn't really dominate in Australia, and she's only gotten less consistent since the early 2000s.

I've always felt Serena's success in Australia is borne out of her ability to play her way into a tournament or reach a high level of play with little match play, not because the surface is particularly friendly to her game.

LightWarrior
Dec 22nd, 2012, 11:13 PM
Could someone tell me why she fares better at the USO which has a similar surface - technically speaking ?

The Dawntreader
Dec 22nd, 2012, 11:20 PM
Could someone tell me why she fares better at the USO which has a similar surface - technically speaking ?

The conditions are generally much quicker, she doesn't have to engage in long, laborious rallies which scrutinise her technique, and most importantly her serve is given great acceleration through the court. Plus I'm sure there are motivational factors too being her home Slam.

The AO presents a lot of unique challenges, not typical of most hardcourts. The conditions and courts can get sticky and slow, and it robs Venus of the luxuries her high-octane aggressive game gives her. It's almost like the hardcourt equivalent of RG.

terjw
Dec 22nd, 2012, 11:46 PM
I think it is her match play. As she has gotten older, she has relied on match play to get into form.

I agree. So why then doesn't she play a proper tournament before AO to try to get some matchplay behind her?

JarkaFish
Dec 22nd, 2012, 11:47 PM
I agree. So why then doesn't she play a tournament before AO to try to get some matchplay behind her?

Because then she wouldn't have any excuses when she bombed out regardless.

:oh:

Queen_Vee_92
Dec 23rd, 2012, 12:15 AM
I agree. So why then doesn't she play a proper tournament before AO to try to get some matchplay behind her?


Tell me about it! Most Venus fans will agree in saying her not playing a proper warm up for Australia has been one of the most frustrating things over the last few years. Obviously the courts and conditions in North American suit her better, but for so many years she's been selling herself short in Melbourne by preparing on fast courts in Hong Kong in a cold climate and has gone into the event labouring to get herself out of exho mode :o

Hopefully the Hopman Cup and good health will let her have a run this year, it's certainly looking like the best off season and prep she's done in a good few years!

dsanders06
Dec 23rd, 2012, 02:49 AM
Always beatable by many top 10 players? Let's take a look at the seedings of the players she lost to pre-surgery in Melbourne:

1998: #2 Lindsay Davenport
1999: #1 Lindsay Davenport
2000: DNP
2001: #1 Martina Hingis
2002: #8 Monica Seles
2003: #1 Serena Williams

In five attempts, three losses to the #1 seed, one loss to the #2 seed and one loss to the #8 seed. Forget peak, during her entire pre-surgery career she only ONCE lost to a player not ranked in the top two in the world.

Compare that to what happens when she came back from surgery.

2004: #25 Lisa Raymond
2005: #10 Alicia Molik
2006: (-) Tsvetana Pironkova
2007: DNP
2008: #4 Ana Ivanovic
2009: (-) Carla Suarez Navarro
2010: #16 Li Na
2011: #30 Andrea Petkovic
2012: DNP

There's no comparison.

Oh, she certainly got WORSE at the AO after 2003 (as she did in most aspects of her career), but even before that she was clearly NEVER a world-beater like she was at Wimbledon and the US Open. Losing to a WELL-past-her-peak Seles, and getting annihilated by a slightly-past-her-prime Hingis, are not levels that would've come close to giving Venus the title no matter how easy or tough her draw was.

The only year she played anything even approaching championship-level tennis at the AO was 2003, and even then, if you were to transport that level of play to any of the subsequent years, the only year that level of play would've won Venus the title is '06 (where Henin/Clijsters/Sharapova were all below their best, and I certainly think 03Venus would've beaten Mauresmo at that tournament), imo. Other than that, I think every single winner of the AO in the 21st century played a higher level of tennis to win their titles than Venus did in '03 :shrug:

Leo St
Dec 23rd, 2012, 03:47 AM
Oh, she certainly got WORSE at the AO after 2003 (as she did in most aspects of her career), but even before that she was clearly NEVER a world-beater like she was at Wimbledon and the US Open. Losing to a WELL-past-her-peak Seles, and getting annihilated by a slightly-past-her-prime Hingis, are not levels that would've come close to giving Venus the title no matter how easy or tough her draw was.

The only year she played anything even approaching championship-level tennis at the AO was 2003, and even then, if you were to transport that level of play to any of the subsequent years, the only year that level of play would've won Venus the title is '06 (where Henin/Clijsters/Sharapova were all below their best, and I certainly think 03Venus would've beaten Mauresmo at that tournament), imo. Other than that, I think every single winner of the AO in the 21st century played a higher level of tennis to win their titles than Venus did in '03 :shrug:

isnt it a given that, as the title says, shes not so good on ao? yet youre writing essays to state that fact

monri
Dec 23rd, 2012, 08:10 AM
Oh, she certainly got WORSE at the AO after 2003 (as she did in most aspects of her career), but even before that she was clearly NEVER a world-beater like she was at Wimbledon and the US Open. Losing to a WELL-past-her-peak Seles, and getting annihilated by a slightly-past-her-prime Hingis, are not levels that would've come close to giving Venus the title no matter how easy or tough her draw was.

The only year she played anything even approaching championship-level tennis at the AO was 2003, and even then, if you were to transport that level of play to any of the subsequent years, the only year that level of play would've won Venus the title is '06 (where Henin/Clijsters/Sharapova were all below their best, and I certainly think 03Venus would've beaten Mauresmo at that tournament), imo. Other than that, I think every single winner of the AO in the 21st century played a higher level of tennis to win their titles than Venus did in '03 :shrug:

I am a Kim fan and neutral to Venus, but IMO Venus played quite a lot better at the AO 2003 than Kim last year to win her title. Even Kim herself played better in the 2003 AO IMO. Venus and Kim played better there than Serena, but Serena's fighting spirit won her the title. Venus was the standout player that year.

In The Zone
Dec 23rd, 2012, 03:11 PM
Oh, she certainly got WORSE at the AO after 2003 (as she did in most aspects of her career), but even before that she was clearly NEVER a world-beater like she was at Wimbledon and the US Open. Losing to a WELL-past-her-peak Seles, and getting annihilated by a slightly-past-her-prime Hingis, are not levels that would've come close to giving Venus the title no matter how easy or tough her draw was.

The only year she played anything even approaching championship-level tennis at the AO was 2003, and even then, if you were to transport that level of play to any of the subsequent years, the only year that level of play would've won Venus the title is '06 (where Henin/Clijsters/Sharapova were all below their best, and I certainly think 03Venus would've beaten Mauresmo at that tournament), imo. Other than that, I think every single winner of the AO in the 21st century played a higher level of tennis to win their titles than Venus did in '03 :shrug:

You're trying to rewrite history. And a way past her peak Seles? Yes literally - but your age is showing because you're looking at the stats and the books. Past her prime Hingis? You clearly underestimate Hingis in Australia then.

If you watched that match and the subsequent semifinal, Seles was recapturing her old form that tournament. That was her ONLY win against Venus and she took Martina to 3 sets which she RARELY did at that point. Seles was on fire.

Your bias is showing. Kind of like a Silver Slam.

dsanders06
Dec 23rd, 2012, 04:30 PM
isnt it a given that, as the title says, shes not so good on ao? yet youre writing essays to state that fact

Apparently it's not a given, because people in this thread are suggesting the AO only became an issue for her after '03 -- when a look at her record clearly shows she was no world-beater there even at her peak.

I am a Kim fan and neutral to Venus, but IMO Venus played quite a lot better at the AO 2003 than Kim last year to win her title. Even Kim herself played better in the 2003 AO IMO. Venus and Kim played better there than Serena, but Serena's fighting spirit won her the title. Venus was the standout player that year.

It's POSSIBLE that Venus in '03 played better than Kim did at the AO2011, but even if so, when you factor in how bad a match-up Kim on hardcourts is for Venus, I have a hard time not seeing Kim win. In fact, even if they'd both played at the AO in '03, I kinda think Kim would've won even then.

You're trying to rewrite history. And a way past her peak Seles? Yes literally - but your age is showing because you're looking at the stats and the books. Past her prime Hingis? You clearly underestimate Hingis in Australia then.

If you watched that match and the subsequent semifinal, Seles was recapturing her old form that tournament. That was her ONLY win against Venus and she took Martina to 3 sets which she RARELY did at that point. Seles was on fire.

Your bias is showing. Kind of like a Silver Slam.

This post "screams inferiority complex". ;)

Yes, Hingis even past her peak was fantastic in Australia. Doesn't change the fact that, even if she was still fantastic, she was still past her peak - so Venus getting obliterated by a player who was past her peak and done winning Slams, hardly indicates Venus was anything close to playing in form that would've won her the title in any scenario.

And I'm a huge Seles fan, but everyone knows that in '02 she was a shadow even of the player she was when she first returned after the stabbing, nevermind compared to the player she was BEFORE the stabbing. Again, the fact Venus let Monica into her only Slam semifinal of the last 4 years of her career, speaks volumes.

(Incidentally, the Venus-Seles H2H is the perfect example of just how much worse Venus is on slow hardcourts than quick ones - Venus thrashed Monica over and over on quick HCs, yet on their only two meetings on slow ones, Venus scrapped past Monica in a messy 3-setter even at her absolute peak at the 2000 Sydney Olympics, and lost at the 02AO. And this shows how ridiculous it is to suggest peak Venus could beat peak Henin/Clijsters/Sharapova/Hingis on a slow hardcourt)

In The Zone
Dec 23rd, 2012, 04:53 PM
And I'm a huge Seles fan, but everyone knows that in '02 she was a shadow even of the player she was when she first returned after the stabbing, nevermind compared to the player she was BEFORE the stabbing. Again, the fact Venus let Monica into her only Slam semifinal of the last 4 years of her career, speaks volumes.

(Incidentally, the Venus-Seles H2H is the perfect example of just how much worse Venus is on slow hardcourts than quick ones - Venus thrashed Monica over and over on quick HCs, yet on their only two meetings on slow ones, Venus scrapped past Monica in a messy 3-setter even at her absolute peak at the 2000 Sydney Olympics, and lost at the 02AO. And this shows how ridiculous it is to suggest peak Venus could beat peak Henin/Clijsters/Sharapova/Hingis on a slow hardcourt)

You are concluding the wrong things from the Seles vs. Venus match. My conclusion? You're too young and didn't watch it live. Yes, we know Seles was not the same Seles pre-stabbing but obviously you didn't follow tennis at that time or else we wouldn't be having this conversation.

young_gunner913
Dec 23rd, 2012, 04:56 PM
You are concluding the wrong things from the Seles vs. Venus match. My conclusion? You're too young and didn't watch it live. Yes, we know Seles was not the same Seles pre-stabbing but obviously you didn't follow tennis at that time or else we wouldn't be having this conversation.

You mean tennis didn't start in 2004?! :speakles:

dsanders06
Dec 23rd, 2012, 04:59 PM
You are concluding the wrong things from the Seles vs. Venus match. My conclusion? You're too young and didn't watch it live. Yes, we know Seles was not the same Seles pre-stabbing but obviously you didn't follow tennis at that time or else we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Or, you're just desperately scrabbling for excuses rather than admit that your fave was never close to winning this Slam (in the light of which, it's rather ironic that you're running around accusing other people of insecurity). I have seen that match, and although Monica played well, it was nothing more than a #4-6 level performance at best. Certainly not the GOATly performance you seem to have reassured yourself it was in order to make youself feel better about Venus's shortcomings.

Brad[le]y.
Dec 23rd, 2012, 05:00 PM
Hingis just played one of the best matches of her career in the previous round so to say she was past her peak then is an overstatement. It wasn't until after Australia in 2001 where injuries and lack of fitness took a toll on her career.

In The Zone
Dec 23rd, 2012, 05:01 PM
I agree. So why then doesn't she play a proper tournament before AO to try to get some matchplay behind her?

Because then she wouldn't have any excuses when she bombed out regardless.

:oh:

:lol: Venus has never been the best with her scheduling ..... Why she played Hong Kong which served no purpose year after year is beyond me.

In The Zone
Dec 23rd, 2012, 05:03 PM
Or, you're just desperately scrabbling for excuses rather than admit that your fave was never close to winning this Slam (in the light of which, it's rather ironic that you're running around accusing other people of insecurity). I have seen that match, and although Monica played well, it was nothing more than a #4-6 level performance at best. Certainly not the GOATly performance you seem to have reassured yourself it was in order to make youself feel better about Venus's shortcomings.

Huh? I really don't care about Venus that much that I would be delusional and stupid unlike other people around here. Again, SILVER SLAM.

Not an excuse, it's fact. Losing to Seles, Davenport, and Hingis in Australia is respectable whether you like it or not.

dsanders06
Dec 23rd, 2012, 05:10 PM
Not an excuse, it's fact. Losing to Seles, Davenport, and Hingis in Australia is respectable whether you like it or not.

:unsure: Are you really this dense? No-one's saying losing to those players isn't respectable for an average player. We are (I'm presuming) judging Venus's results at the AO against the standards expected of a supposed great, and against the standards of her results at 2 of the other Slams. And the wider context of this is Venus fans constantly claiming Venus underachieved by not winning the AO title. If you believe that losing to past-their-peak Seles and Hingis are respectable results for peak Venus, then you must believe Venus never had the ability to win an AO title.....which is fine, but then I presume you wouldn't claim peak Venus would beat the peaks of the likes of Henin/Clijsters/Sharapova/Hingis on a slow hardcourt. :shrug:

Huh? I really don't care about Venus that much that I would be delusional and stupid unlike other people around here. Again, SILVER SLAM.

Ok, now I'm starting to understand why this argument reminds me of arguing with a brick wall, if you really don't have the ability to see that the "Silver Slam" is a joke. :tape:

In The Zone
Dec 23rd, 2012, 05:13 PM
Moving on from this train wreck of a person.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/46b8844b3e79150431bb132ee7a0428c/tumblr_mf0pt8K0Hf1r3ty02o1_500.gif

bandabou
Dec 23rd, 2012, 05:44 PM
Or, you're just desperately scrabbling for excuses rather than admit that your fave was never close to winning this Slam (in the light of which, it's rather ironic that you're running around accusing other people of insecurity). I have seen that match, and although Monica played well, it was nothing more than a #4-6 level performance at best. Certainly not the GOATly performance you seem to have reassured yourself it was in order to make youself feel better about Venus's shortcomings.

Vee never cashed on the chances she had..laid two major eggs in '01 and '02. Can't deny that..but somehow I get the sense that you're letting the results after '03 cloud your judgement. If so, it's funny..because Maria fans have all kinds of built in excuses for why Masha can't play well at the Open ( apart from this year, no appearance in week 2 since her win in '06). But it is what it is.

It's Vee's own fault.

Leo St
Dec 23rd, 2012, 06:09 PM
fact: slow hardcourts dont favor venus, it makes her attacks less deadly.. no big deal in admiting that

fact: yes, after 2003 it got worse

fact: despite the fact she was never the most dominant player in the ao courts, her peak level was, even there, trully incredible and to say otherwise is to troll..
after all.. in 2003 she lost to probably the best player to compete at ao at one of her best years.. so even though we can speculate why she wasnt the same player she was at the us open, this image of a mediocre player some are trying to draw is a desperate reach to yet again demise a player that has gifted spectator with fantastic almost never seen before tennis, fact that made her be hated for some but loved for oh so many more

thats, in fact, one of my favorite venus matches
U0ieXFxT_T0

dsanders06
Dec 23rd, 2012, 06:34 PM
Vee never cashed on the chances she had..laid two major eggs in '01 and '02. Can't deny that..but somehow I get the sense that you're letting the results after '03 cloud your judgement. If so, it's funny..because Maria fans have all kinds of built in excuses for why Masha can't play well at the Open ( apart from this year, no appearance in week 2 since her win in '06). But it is what it is.

It's Vee's own fault.

Yup, Maria's record at the US Open is quite weak for a player of her calibre -- and yet, even as weak as it is, she's STILL made as many semifinals there as Venus has made at her TWO weakest Slams combined :shrug:

fact: slow hardcourts dont favor venus, it makes her attacks less deadly.. no big deal in admiting that

fact: yes, after 2003 it got worse

fact: despite the fact she was never the most dominant player in the ao courts, her peak level was, even there, trully incredible and to say otherwise is to troll..
after all.. in 2003 she lost to probably the best player to compete at ao at one of her best years.. so even though we can speculate why she wasnt the same player she was at the us open, this image of a mediocre player some are trying to draw is a desperate reach to yet again demise a player that has gifted spectator with fantastic almost never seen before tennis, fact that made her be hated for some but loved for oh so many more

thats, in fact, one of my favorite venus matches
U0ieXFxT_T0

Again, yes Venus's peak level on slow hardcourts is incredibly good when compared to all 128 girls that make up the draw, but it IS only mediocre compared to the greats of her generation. Do you agree or disagree that Justine, Kim and Maria all have a higher peak level on slow hardcourts? :shrug:

And even though she did lose to an AO great in '03, let's not pretend Serena played spectacularly at that tournament -- she wasn't at the incredible level she was at Wimbledon and the US Open the previous year.

bandabou
Dec 23rd, 2012, 06:57 PM
Yup, Maria's record at the US Open is quite weak for a player of her calibre -- and yet, even as weak as it is, she's STILL made as many semifinals there as Venus has made at her TWO weakest Slams combined :shrug:

That's true...can't deny that.

bandabou
Dec 23rd, 2012, 07:00 PM
Again, yes Venus's peak level on slow hardcourts is incredibly good when compared to all 128 girls that make up the draw, but it IS only mediocre compared to the greats of her generation. Do you agree or disagree that Justine, Kim and Maria all have a higher peak level on slow hardcourts? :shrug:

And even though she did lose to an AO great in '03, let's not pretend Serena played spectacularly at that tournament -- she wasn't at the incredible level she was at Wimbledon and the US Open the previous year.

That level in '03 certainly was higher than '05, no?! And even that level was too much for Masha, soo...:shrug:

Mistress of Evil
Dec 23rd, 2012, 07:16 PM
You mean tennis didn't start in 2004?! :speakles:

A genuine question. Why do you still post on a website that is called tennisforum? I mean, didn't 'tennis' die in early June.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m21e12fAuL1qb4a6z.gif

heavyhorse
Dec 23rd, 2012, 07:38 PM
Sharapova fans are always so threatened by Venus because it's common knowledge that Sharapova is basically a shitter version of Venus as a tennis player; that's partly why I think Serena kicks her ass everytime they meet eachother on court. And I love Pova.

heavyhorse
Dec 23rd, 2012, 07:44 PM
:spit: The irony of choosing a Britney Spears GIF to punctuate that point. Thank you for reminding me that, no matter how much of a trainwreck I may be, I'm not at the level certain others have reached.


So you use people with mental health issues, such as Britney Spears, to make yourself feel better?

Disgusting. :rolleyes:

Leo St
Dec 23rd, 2012, 08:01 PM
Yup, Maria's record at the US Open is quite weak for a player of her calibre -- and yet, even as weak as it is, she's STILL made as many semifinals there as Venus has made at her TWO weakest Slams combined :shrug:



Again, yes Venus's peak level on slow hardcourts is incredibly good when compared to all 128 girls that make up the draw, but it IS only mediocre compared to the greats of her generation. Do you agree or disagree that Justine, Kim and Maria all have a higher peak level on slow hardcourts? :shrug:

And even though she did lose to an AO great in '03, let's not pretend Serena played spectacularly at that tournament -- she wasn't at the incredible level she was at Wimbledon and the US Open the previous year.

you can forever feast on the fact that venus underachieved on this particular event.. so yeah, go ahead and make conclusions such as peak maria > peak venus in slow HC.. that was what you were aiming from the start

dsanders06
Dec 23rd, 2012, 11:25 PM
So you use people with mental health issues, such as Britney Spears, to make yourself feel better?

Disgusting. :rolleyes:

Sharapova fans are always so threatened by Venus because it's common knowledge that Sharapova is basically a shitter version of Venus as a tennis player; that's partly why I think Serena kicks her ass everytime they meet eachother on court. And I love Pova.

In hindsight, I agree with you on Britney and so have now deleted that post.

As for your other point: nope, my ragging on Venus in this thread doesn't really have anything to do with my love for Maria (nor hate for Venus, I don't mind her), it's just a reaction to this strange mythologising that's been going on w/r/t to Venus's legacy here in the past year, which has led to people preposterously claiming that "Peak Venus" would beat not just Maria but also Justine and Kim, on surfaces where they won Slams and Venus didn't.

NoppaNoppa
Dec 23rd, 2012, 11:28 PM
She is slow to net. Murdered with drop shots.

Dominic
Dec 23rd, 2012, 11:28 PM
Sharapova fans are always so threatened by Venus because it's common knowledge that Sharapova is basically a shitter version of Venus as a tennis player; that's partly why I think Serena kicks her ass everytime they meet eachother on court. And I love Pova.

I'm a fan of Venus but that is SUCH crap!

Dominic
Dec 23rd, 2012, 11:29 PM
Anyway I dunno, Sometimes it seemed like she was playing really well and all of a sudden she had one really weird match where she played much below her level and that was it. :confused:

VeeReeDavJCap81
Dec 23rd, 2012, 11:36 PM
Keep it simple, Venus plays her best on surfaces where the points are shorter. Has nothing to do with the bounce, the heat, the time of year, not her home tournament blah blah

NoppaNoppa
Dec 23rd, 2012, 11:39 PM
Slow to net. Peroid.

Cajka
Dec 24th, 2012, 01:36 AM
Plexicushion is slow as fuck, that's why. While it was played on Rebound Ace, her results were significantly better and she was younger, her health was better etc.

lloyders76
Dec 24th, 2012, 02:40 AM
Slow to net. Peroid.



just because you repeat your point doesn't make it true.

venus is one of the most dangerous players to drop shot, always has been. and even if your assertion was correct, it would be easier for her to track down drop shorts on slow hard courts than on grass, so stating that as the reason for her lack of success at the Aus Open is completely flawed

Nicolás89
Dec 24th, 2012, 02:47 AM
It reminds her of Martina.

TPlaya8
Dec 24th, 2012, 03:30 AM
It's POSSIBLE that Venus in '03 played better than Kim did at the AO2011, but even if so, when you factor in how bad a match-up Kim on hardcourts is for Venus, I have a hard time not seeing Kim win. In fact, even if they'd both played at the AO in '03, I kinda think Kim would've won even then.



Please before Stanford 2005 Kim had only won 2 matches against Venus 1 three setter on clay and a retirement by Venus at the 2002 YEC don't get it twisted about the Venus and Kim match-up!

bandabou
Dec 24th, 2012, 03:36 AM
:lol: Ain't it something..in the Masha vs Vika match-up, all you hear..if it had been peak Masha, then Vika wouldn't stood a chance.

Now when Kim AND Juju only started to beat Vee well after '03 ( thus after the ab-injury which totally derailed her career), all of sudden..Douchesanders is acting like it was peak Vee that Kim and Juju were beating. This guy, really something else.q

sammy01
Dec 24th, 2012, 04:00 AM
Venus lack of width. The slower courts are much more receptive to angles to set up points than straight up and down hitting that is much more successful at Wimbledon. For me it is no surprise the most successful players in the last 2 years at the Oz open are Vika, Kim and Li. Vika is a metronomic crosscourt hitter who always looks to rally cross court corner to corner to drag opponents out of court enough to leave gaps, she never looks to bludgeon opponents. Clijsters is of a similar ilk and her and Li naturally hit slightly round the outside of the ball, meaning they get width more easily.

Sharapova winning in 2008 was due to her accurate crosscourt hitting getting ridiculous angles when she used to hook that forehand more than she does now. Serena became a great player when she added in a more rolled acute crosscourt forehand to her game in 2002/3 and it still serves her so well today.

I don't think it is coincidence that ALL venus main rivals over the years (serena, kim, henin, momo, cap, hingis) have faired better than her at the Oz open but have all also been able to play with greater width and angle.

Leo St
Dec 24th, 2012, 04:55 AM
Venus lack of width. The slower courts are much more receptive to angles to set up points than straight up and down hitting that is much more successful at Wimbledon. For me it is no surprise the most successful players in the last 2 years at the Oz open are Vika, Kim and Li. Vika is a metronomic crosscourt hitter who always looks to rally cross court corner to corner to drag opponents out of court enough to leave gaps, she never looks to bludgeon opponents. Clijsters is of a similar ilk and her and Li naturally hit slightly round the outside of the ball, meaning they get width more easily.

Sharapova winning in 2008 was due to her accurate crosscourt hitting getting ridiculous angles when she used to hook that forehand more than she does now. Serena became a great player when she added in a more rolled acute crosscourt forehand to her game in 2002/3 and it still serves her so well today.

I don't think it is coincidence that ALL venus main rivals over the years (serena, kim, henin, momo, cap, hingis) have faired better than her at the Oz open but have all also been able to play with greater width and angle.

you are absolutelly right when you say venus doesnt engage in crosscourt rallies often.. you are wrong, though, when you say she doesnt create angles.. thats actually a signature of both william sisters.. to create beautiful angles without hitting power shots, just to be able to, then, blast winners

TPlaya8
Dec 24th, 2012, 10:56 PM
:lol: Ain't it something..in the Masha vs Vika match-up, all you hear..if it had been peak Masha, then Vika wouldn't stood a chance.

Now when Kim AND Juju only started to beat Vee well after '03 ( thus after the ab-injury which totally derailed her career), all of sudden..Douchesanders is acting like it was peak Vee that Kim and Juju were beating. This guy, really something else.q

Excatly it is such a ignoroant bias!

Like I said before until Stanford 2005 Kim had only won a 3 set clay match and a retirement win over Venus and we all know Justine didn't only got 2 wins in her whole career over Venus!

JarkaFish
Dec 24th, 2012, 10:58 PM
Excatly it is such a ignoroant bias!

Like I said before until Stanford 2005 Kim had only won a 3 set clay match and a retirement win over Venus and we all know Justine didn't only got 2 wins in her whole career over Venus!

That's only because Juju only played her once after 2003. :shrug:

danieln1
Dec 25th, 2012, 05:34 AM
Maybe this time "she'll play the percentages" and not hit harder, harder and harder, hard-hitting herself into self-defeat with reckless errors, creating self-made errors to dismiss herself. Throughout her career Venus has been her own worse enemy, derailing a promising, dominating career, for I've seen no women's player more talented than Venus, no one.........."ever".

That happened in that epic loss against Kerber this year in NY.

Maddox
Dec 25th, 2012, 06:26 AM
The argument that Henin only played Venus once after 2003 is flawed. Henin was a top 4 player when they played in 2003 and it was a few months before she won her first major.

Ya'll are just bitter, Venus wasn't at her peak after 2003 therefore she didn't meet Henin :p

$uricate
Dec 25th, 2012, 04:29 PM
Because you touch yourself at night Lin Lin

:hysteric:

Gaby Gasparyan
Dec 26th, 2012, 10:31 AM
Venus is good on AO court, she is also good on RG court. She is good on every court. Just a pity before she plays AO & RG that they couldn't get hypnotist to convince her she was at Wimbledon. She had the talent, she was world class....