PDA

View Full Version : 3rd greatest Australian Open player in history


mistymore
May 20th, 2012, 10:05 PM
Since it is obvious Court and Serena are the 2 greatest Australian Open performers in history, in one order or another (personally I go with Serena #1 and Court #2, but could be argued either way) who would you pick as the 3rd greatest Australian Open player in history. The obvious choices seem to be:

Seles
Graf
Hingis
Goolagong
Navratilova
Evert

Cosmic Voices
May 20th, 2012, 10:09 PM
Hingis ofc,
she was a AO final queen

laurie
May 20th, 2012, 10:14 PM
I voted Seles

Miss Amor
May 20th, 2012, 10:14 PM
Seles > Graf > Hingis

Craig.
May 20th, 2012, 10:15 PM
Seles > Graf > Hingis

Yup.

sammy01
May 20th, 2012, 10:16 PM
i wouldn't say it was for sure serena is ahead of seles or hingis when it comes to the oz open. if you value them just on the number of titles then yes, but seles won 33 consecutive matches at the oz open and hingis made 6 straight finals.

Helen Lawson
May 20th, 2012, 10:17 PM
Where's Chris O'Neill?

mistymore
May 20th, 2012, 10:25 PM
i wouldn't say it was for sure serena is ahead of seles or hingis when it comes to the oz open. if you value them just on the number of titles then yes, but seles won 33 consecutive matches at the oz open and hingis made 6 straight finals.

Hingis lost 3 finals in a row, including 2 to Capriati. That already puts her below Serena, in addition to winning 2 fewer titles. Also look who Hingis beat to win her Australian Opens, her toughest competition was Pierce, pffft. I could see your point on Seles perhaps, but Serena has such great longevity of success and dominance at the event.

Helen Lawson
May 20th, 2012, 10:27 PM
It would have been great to see '92 Seles against Serena.

sammy01
May 20th, 2012, 10:32 PM
Hingis lost 3 finals in a row, including 2 to Capriati. That already puts her below Serena, in addition to winning 2 fewer titles. Also look who Hingis beat to win her Australian Opens, her toughest competition was Pierce, pffft. I could see your point on Seles perhaps, but Serena has such great longevity of success and dominance at the event.

making 6 straight finals at a slam is amazing. im no hingis lover, but serena has never done that at any slam, and i'm pretty sure not many women have either.

as for seles winning in 1991 and still making semi finals in 2002, with 4 titles along the way, that to me is longevity.

bandabou
May 20th, 2012, 10:40 PM
Sammy..5 titles is 5 titles..

mistymore
May 20th, 2012, 10:41 PM
making 6 straight finals at a slam is amazing. im no hingis lover, but serena has never done that at any slam, and i'm pretty sure not many women have either.

as for seles winning in 1991 and still making semi finals in 2002, with 4 titles along the way, that to me is longevity.

Serena has 2 more titles than Hingis. 2 extra titles >>>>> 1 extra final (or 3 extra runner ups). The streak of 6 finals in a row is negated by losing 3 finals in a row, including 2 in a row to Capriati (:lol:), and winning your last ever title at age 18.

Seles you have more point on than Hingis, which all but answers part of the thread question atleast, Seles > Hingis at the Australian Open. Hingis did do well vs Seles when they met there but that can just be the matchup, particular in light of prime Hingis even being owned by the likes of Capriati there as mentioned.

Graf is underrated by many as being part of the Australian Open greats. She missed the Australian Open 2 years she would have been heavily favored to win (1995 and 1996), and one she would have been a strong contender (1987 1992), and while it is different circumstances in part that is even more than for instance Seles missed (1994, 1995, and a lesser contender in 1997 and 1998). Despite that she still won 4 titles and lost a 3 set final to Seles in the 5th. That is more finals and same # of titles as Seles, and 1 more title and only 1 less final than Hingis. Hingis unlike Graf and Seles had the good fortune of being healthy and able to play each year, and still could not amass more success than that. It is hard to even say Graf benefited much from the Seles stabbing when Graf hardly did anything at the Australian Open after the Seles stabbing anyway, missing most yeas injured, or playing injured and getting a poor result on other occasions. The Australian Open after 1994 was just a write off for her anyway.

sammy01
May 20th, 2012, 10:43 PM
Sammy..5 titles is 5 titles..

congrats you can count, but i fail to see where i said she hadn't won 5 titles.

LightWarrior
May 20th, 2012, 10:46 PM
Btw Court won most of her titles when the AO was the Australian Championships. And you know what that means...

mistymore
May 20th, 2012, 10:51 PM
Btw Court won most of her titles when the AO was the Australian Championships. And you know what that means...

True but she most likely would have won somewhere from 5-7 then even if it were a real slam back then. Which would still have probably been the record, although Serena would have a great shot at the record herself before she retires in this case.

LightWarrior
May 20th, 2012, 11:00 PM
True but she most likely would have won somewhere from 5-7 then even if it were a real slam back then. Which would still have probably been the record, although Serena would have a great shot at the record herself before she retires in this case.

Whatever. Serena is the Queen of Australia. Then Seles, then Hingis 3rd.
Court's records are inflated because of the Australian Championships.

CetkovskaBrazil
May 21st, 2012, 12:01 AM
I picked Seles but I need to give a mention to Maria Esther Bueno :D

mistymore
May 21st, 2012, 12:10 AM
I picked Seles but I need to give a mention to Maria Esther Bueno :D

Why? She was almost irrelevant at the event. She almost never played it, and never won it when she did. Her biggest feat was retiring with an injury in the 3rd set of her only final there. Now if you are talking Wimbledon or the U.S Open I could see your point.

Linda R
May 21st, 2012, 01:43 AM
I discounted Court, it was so long ago, different set up. I voted for Hingis

mauresmofan
May 21st, 2012, 01:47 AM
Seles with that remarkable streak

Ryan
May 21st, 2012, 02:43 AM
Sammy..5 titles is 5 titles..


Another stellar contribution. :hearts:

Seles > Hingis > Graf. Obviously Graf is BETTER than Hingis, I just think Martina's dominance/consistency at that event is pretty remarkable.

MBM
May 21st, 2012, 02:59 AM
congrats you can count, but i fail to see where i said she hadn't won 5 titles.

Martina has only her finals streak going for her to be > serena. Serena is 54-7 with 5 titles, Martina is 52-7 with 3 titles. So does her timing alone make her the more successful?

But actually you can add that Martina's non-title-run w-l is 31-7, whereas Serena's is only 19-7... which says that when not winning the tournament, Martina still made it deep and serena not so much. I think I'd take 5 titles and a few early exits over consistent deep runs and only 3 trophies to show for it :P Each to their own though

sdch
May 21st, 2012, 03:16 AM
Lol at putting Margaret and Serena in the same sentence, let alone Serena above Margaret. Margaret is leaps and bounds higher than everyone in history. To the contrary, Graf, Seles and Hingis are all very close to Serena.

tennisvideos
May 21st, 2012, 03:18 PM
Lol at putting Margaret and Serena in the same sentence, let alone Serena above Margaret. Margaret is leaps and bounds higher than everyone in history. To the contrary, Graf, Seles and Hingis are all very close to Serena.

Exactly. The fact is, Court won 11 Australian Open titles and no one comes close. It doesn't matter that the fields were smaller and there were less overseas players - it was still a slam and it took a phenomenal effort to win 11 regardless esp as the Australians had the most depth of any nation when Court was playing/

And in a number of those wins Court did beat great players like Maria Bueno, Billie-Jean King, Lesley Turner, Nancy Richey, Evonne Goolagong etc.

Had the Aussie Open have been a full slam I would think Court would have been heavily favoured to win at least 7 of them ... it was her home tournament, she loved the Aussie grass, it played more like a hard court which suited her grounds and all court game. The only two losses she ever suffered there were once to Billie-Jean King in 68 when Court was coming back from a year off retirement, and once to Navratilova in 1975 after coming back from a year off having her 2nd child. Who else would have been favoured to beat the world's most dominant player of her generation on her home turf? Maybe Maria Bueno could have won 1-2 titles. Maybe Billie-Jean could have possibly won 1-2 .. maybe. But Court would have been favourite for sure regardless. I can't imagine anyone else favoured to beat her there.

The bottom line is that Court was by far the most dominant player at the Aussie Open in history and any argument against this is absurd IMO as the fact is that it was a Slam and Court won 11 of them and you can only beat whoever turns up.

Do you also take away Maureen Connolly's Aussie and USO wins as well (yes the USO only had 1-2 foreign players back in the day)? Do we also take away Evert's French titles in the 70s? And King's titles when Court was having babies? Or some of Graf's titles when Monica was stabbed? It's just totally disrespectful to the great players of the past and disrespectful to the history of our sport.

Queenpova
May 21st, 2012, 03:20 PM
Legend.

mistymore
May 21st, 2012, 05:40 PM
Probably another Court sermon from tennisvideos, even though she was conceded as one of the top 2 at the event by the poll itself. Thank god I finally have this ultra annoying poster on ignore and dont have to read it.

Back on topic I think Graf is underrated on this poll. Based on what could she ever be below Hingis. Are people basing that on Hingis doing better vs Seles than Graf did. Maybe Hingis was just a worse matchup on the surface for Seles than Graf was, it doesnt mean Hingis had more sheer ability. Prime Graf would never be down 6-1, 5-1 to Davenport in an Australian Open final, or lose back to back finals to Capriati. Not in a million years.

bandabou
May 21st, 2012, 06:53 PM
congrats you can count, but i fail to see where i said she hadn't won 5 titles.

5 titles beats 6 finals in a row that only produced 3 titles..

danieln1
May 21st, 2012, 06:56 PM
Monica
Hingis
Graf in the order

Kworb
May 21st, 2012, 07:23 PM
Serena > Seles > Hingis > Graf

Court is not relevant in the discussion because the tournament was very local in her day, so you can't compare the eras.

petkoan
May 21st, 2012, 07:31 PM
Legend

Dave.
May 21st, 2012, 08:26 PM
Seles > Hingis > Graf

Hingis' 6 finals in a row count for something vs Graf's more sporadic appearances in finals. Hingis was unfailingly consistent in her prime there (only losing to one inferior player in her 6 year run), whereas Graf has losses to Novotna and Coetzer. Also, Hingis was 2-0 vs Seles, Graf was 0-2.

Serena having more titles than all of them makes her the best AO player in the period it can actually be counted as being a grand slam level tournament. Not only does Monica have 1 less title, but she missed far too many years for her to be put ahead of Serena.

sdch
May 22nd, 2012, 12:02 AM
Serena > Seles > Hingis > Graf

Court is not relevant in the discussion because the tournament was very local in her day, so you can't compare the eras.

Yes, I guess you're right. As tennisvideos said, she only really beat nothing players, like King, Bueno, Richey and Goolagong. Meanwhile, Serena beat GOAT Safina.

mistymore
May 22nd, 2012, 12:35 AM
Yes, I guess you're right. As tennisvideos said, she only really beat nothing players, like King, Bueno, Richey and Goolagong. Meanwhile, Serena beat GOAT Safina.

Nice try but Serena has beaten Venus, Henin, Sharapova, and Davenport in 4 of her 5 Australian Open finals. Court in 8 of her 11 finals had for final opponents Lehane, Melville, a walkover, a retirement, and clay courter Turner, so has already had less or only the same # quality final in 11 titles as Serena has in less than half. Court in fact beat Jan Lehane (hahahah) in 4 straight Australian Open finals, 4 years in a row, which tells you all you need to know about the event back then. Safina >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lehane. Does anyone think any of Serena, Graf, Seles, Hingis, or lets skip down about 10 levels and say Barbara Schett or Anna Kournikova wouldnt have loved a scenario of playing Jan Lehane 4 years in a row in the Australian Open final.

sdch
May 22nd, 2012, 12:58 AM
Nice try but Serena has beaten Venus, Henin, Sharapova, and Davenport in 4 of her 5 Australian Open finals. Court in 8 of her 11 finals had for final opponents Lehane, Melville, a walkover, a retirement, and clay courter Turner, so has already had less or only the same # quality final in 11 titles as Serena has in less than half. Court in fact beat Jan Lehane (hahahah) in 4 straight Australian Open finals, 4 years in a row, which tells you all you need to know about the event back then. Safina >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lehane. Does anyone think any of Serena, Graf, Seles, Hingis, or lets skip down about 10 levels and say Barbara Schett or Anna Kournikova wouldnt have loved a scenario of playing Jan Lehane 4 years in a row in the Australian Open final.

Well, being that Margaret won it more than double the amount of times that Serena did (11 to 5) she is bound to have faced some easier opponents, but King, Bueno, Richey, Goolagong> Venus, Henin, Sharapova, Davenport. Besides, had Margaret actually faced some tougher opponents in some of her other wins, she would have been favoured to win anyway. King was her closest rival, yet Margaret dominated their H-2-H.

mistymore
May 22nd, 2012, 01:46 AM
Well, being that Margaret won it more than double the amount of times that Serena did (11 to 5) she is bound to have faced some easier opponents, but King, Bueno, Richey, Goolagong> Venus, Henin, Sharapova, Davenport.

She didnt even have to PLAY the final vs Richey so drop Richey, and anyway Richey on grass is a much weaker opponent than all of Venus, Henin, Sharapova, or Davenport on hard courts. King grass > Venus on slow hard courts, Henin > Goolagong, Bueno > Davenport, Sharapova > Richey (especialy not even playing,lol) so the quartets you mentioned are only a toss up overall. However you are picking Court's 3 toughest final opponents out of 10 matches she played for her 11 titles, vs Serena's 4 toughest final opponents out of the 5 final matches she played for her 5 titles. The fact Serena's compares this favorably still already says enough.


Besides, had Margaret actually faced some tougher opponents in some of her other wins, she would have been favoured to win anyway. King was her closest rival, yet Margaret dominated their H-2-H

Yada, yada, at the 3 slams everyone played, the 3 REAL slams back then, Court won no more than 5 at any. Yet the Australian with almost nobody playing she wins 11, coincidence? Someone doesnt have to better than her overall, the field combined is able to stop Court a high number of times obviously though. They cant do that if the field isnt even there, with on average 2 or 3 of the top 10 playing annually.

Anyway I am done with helping to start another Court shrine. I conceded her top 2 all time at the Australian Open, which as you can see from above posts many disagreed with me doing so I was perhaps more generous than I should have been, and the discussion is about who is 3rd best Australian Open player behind Court and Serena, with Court and Serena thus irrelevant to the topic. If you want to start a discussion who is the best at the Australian Open between Court and Serena start your own thread on the topic. Perhaps I should have started a topic who is the 2nd best Australian hard courts player behind Serena, just to keep the Court worshippers from bringing their song and dance to yet another thread.

GAGAlady
May 22nd, 2012, 07:07 AM
Margaret court is a disgrace to the sport of tennis with her ridiculous comments and upsetting behavior regarding gays and lesbians regardless of her empeccable petegre. She is a legend and was a phenomenal p,Ayer but a shame it came to the behaviour she now condones towards gays...

tennisvideos
May 22nd, 2012, 07:33 AM
Margaret court is a disgrace to the sport of tennis with her ridiculous comments and upsetting behavior regarding gays and lesbians regardless of her empeccable petegre. She is a legend and was a phenomenal p,Ayer but a shame it came to the behaviour she now condones towards gays...

Pot kettle black. I think hatred is hatred in any form ... Just saying ...

As a gay man, we want others to accept us, and yet many of us don't accept others and their different points of view. It's just plain hypocrisy. And it's totally off topic which was about tennis greatness at the Aussie Open. :rolleyes:

tennisvideos
May 22nd, 2012, 07:38 AM
Nice try but Serena has beaten Venus, Henin, Sharapova, and Davenport in 4 of her 5 Australian Open finals. Court in 8 of her 11 finals had for final opponents Lehane, Melville, a walkover, a retirement, and clay courter Turner, so has already had less or only the same # quality final in 11 titles as Serena has in less than half. Court in fact beat Jan Lehane (hahahah) in 4 straight Australian Open finals, 4 years in a row, which tells you all you need to know about the event back then. Safina >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lehane. Does anyone think any of Serena, Graf, Seles, Hingis, or lets skip down about 10 levels and say Barbara Schett or Anna Kournikova wouldnt have loved a scenario of playing Jan Lehane 4 years in a row in the Australian Open final.

Seems like MistyMore is now disrespecting other players of the past like Jan Lehane.

Jan Lehane was at one stage a world top 5 player who also scored many wins over all of the greats of the day including Maria Bueno, Darlene Hard, Lesley Turner etc. She was unfortunately severely injured when in her prime and never made it back to the top 10 again after that.

Kerry Melville was a perennial top tenner and a USO and Aussie Open finalist, Lesley Turner made Wimbledon Semis and almost beat the great champion Maria Bueno there in that match as well as she was a world #2 and twice French Champion and 4 times finalist. These are not nobodies as misty more tries to paint. These are all top quality players. It's just that many people don't know much about the stars of the past and misty more plays on this.

Might pay for Mistymore to brush up on his/her history before he/she goes attacking other wonderful players from the past.

Sam L
May 22nd, 2012, 09:56 AM
Seems like MistyMore is now disrespecting other players of the past like Jan Lehane.

Jan Lehane was at one stage a world top 5 player who also scored many wins over all of the greats of the day including Maria Bueno, Darlene Hard, Lesley Turner etc. She was unfortunately severely injured when in her prime and never made it back to the top 10 again after that.

Kerry Melville was a perennial top tenner and a USO and Aussie Open finalist, Lesley Turner made Wimbledon Semis and almost beat the great champion Maria Bueno there in that match as well as she was a world #2 and twice French Champion and 4 times finalist. These are not nobodies as misty more tries to paint. These are all top quality players. It's just that many people don't know much about the stars of the past and misty more plays on this.

Might pay for Mistymore to brush up on his/her history before he/she goes attacking other wonderful players from the past.

I knew that this is what this thread was going to be for. It's really hilarious how they're attacking the status/competition of the Australian Championships. Some people just can't get over the fact that Margaret has 24 Grand Slam singles titles. :tape:

Kworb
May 22nd, 2012, 10:03 AM
I knew that this is what this thread was going to be for. It's really hilarious how they're attacking the status/competition of the Australian Championships. Some people just can't get over the fact that Margaret has 24 Grand Slam singles titles. :tape:

She doesn't. If Palermo was upgraded to Grand Slam status it doesn't mean that Medina Garrigues suddenly has five Slam titles.

Sam L
May 22nd, 2012, 10:17 AM
She doesn't. If Palermo was upgraded to Grand Slam status it doesn't mean that Medina Garrigues suddenly has five Slam titles.
The concept of the Grand Slam was created in 1933. Connolly won the Grand Slam in 1953. Last time I checked Court won her slams in the 60s and 70s. She has 24 Grand Slam singles titles.

These are just Graf trolls trying to attack the Australian titles of Court's, doubles titles of Navratilova's and Seles's success in early 90s by attributing to Graf's "slump". Don't fall for it.

Now, if you want to discuss the relative competition of winning each of these Grand Slams, I'm all for it. Somehow I think we should start with the 1993 French Open considering the three time defending champion was out.

But I'm not getting involved in dishonest trolling.

J4m3ka
May 22nd, 2012, 12:22 PM
King grass > Venus on slow hard courts, Henin > Goolagong, Bueno > Davenport, Sharapova > Richey (especialy not even playing,lol) so the quartets you mentioned are only a toss up overall. However you are picking Court's 3 toughest final opponents out of 10 matches she played for her 11 titles, vs Serena's 4 toughest final opponents out of the 5 final matches she played for her 5 titles. The fact Serena's compares this favorably still already says enough.






I agree with all you have put, but Venus at the 2003 Australian Open was what we could call an anomaly. She was playing way better than she ever has on Plexicushion / Rebound Ace that year, routing everyone in sight to the final. So I wouldn't even say that King on grass as a final opponent was a clear advantage on this occasion :lol:

Marcus1979
May 22nd, 2012, 12:40 PM
for those that question Hingis 6 finals at AO in a row from 1997-2002 here are the top players she beat there

1997: Spirlea, MJ Fernandez, Pierce
1998: Pierce, Hunber, Martinez
1999: Pierce, Seles, Mauresmo (of course was when she was young)
2000: Sanchez-Vicario, Martinez
2001: S.Williams, V.Williams
2002: Seles

from memory 2002 was the year when there were a lot of upsets and the draw fell apart.

mistymore
May 22nd, 2012, 04:44 PM
I agree with all you have put, but Venus at the 2003 Australian Open was what we could call an anomaly. She was playing way better than she ever has on Plexicushion / Rebound Ace that year, routing everyone in sight to the final. So I wouldn't even say that King on grass as a final opponent was a clear advantage on this occasion :lol:

Excellent point. Venus was playing some outstanding tennis at the 2003 Australian. Nobody but Serena could have stopped her, and in large part only due to the mental aspects of the matchup. Clijsters would have been spanked similarily to how Henin was had she closed Serena out.

mistymore
May 22nd, 2012, 09:38 PM
She doesn't. If Palermo was upgraded to Grand Slam status it doesn't mean that Medina Garrigues suddenly has five Slam titles.

That was pretty funny. :lol: The Australian Open back then was Palermo basically.

PowerWilliams
May 22nd, 2012, 10:15 PM
Evonne...for one time they had an home champion out of Court.

Stonerpova
May 23rd, 2012, 12:47 AM
Seles > Graf > Hingis

This.