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tennisbum79
May 8th, 2012, 12:55 AM
Greek Tragedy: embracing Nazism in times of trouble.







Greek tragedy that could sink the euro




As the dust settles on a tumultuous weekend of elections around Europe, parties of the Left preaching a belligerent anti-austerity message have emerged the big winners.

Following Labour’s gain of more than 800 seats in council elections here, the French socialist Francois Hollande swept into the Elysee Palace promising to stimulate growth with a new era of borrow, tax and spend policies.


In Greece, there was a political earthquake of awesome power. The two mainstream parties – blamed for the economic catastrophe that has engulfed the nation – were kicked aside by enraged voters, many of whom opted instead for naked extremism.





http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/05/07/article-2141017-12EB6AD8000005DC-374_468x286.jpg Earthquake: Voters in Greece have rejected mainstream parties



No fewer than 60 per cent cast their votes for parties of the hard Left or nationalist Right. While the biggest winners were a radical socialist coalition, 7 per cent supported ‘Golden Dawn’, a neo-Nazi organisation, one of whose policies is to pepper the Greek border with landmines to discourage immigration.


In 2009, this deranged group polled just 0.29 per cent, but with over half of under 24s out of work, routine wage cuts of up to 20 per cent, and further crippling budget cuts on the way, the people are desperate for solutions, however drastic.



http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/05/07/article-2141017-12F5BAA7000005DC-812_468x297.jpg
Deranged: The far-right Golden Dawn party, led by Nikolaos Michaloliakos (pictured), polled 7pc



So what are the auguries for the euro, the EU and, crucially, for Britain?

Mr Hollande’s plans to increase public spending, lower the state retirement age and bring in a 75 per cent top income tax rate have sent jitters through the markets and will doubtless have a baleful effect on France’s domestic economy.


He also hopes to undermine the City of London – remember Mr Hollande has declared the world of finance to be his enemy – by reviving the Sarkozy idea of a financial transaction tax.


But he will not want to upset the Franco-German axis that runs the eurozone, so will probably try to persuade Chancellor Merkel to loosen the purse strings rather than force confrontation.


Greece – dependent on EU and IMF bailouts but violently opposed to the austerity demands that go with them – is a far more dangerous proposition. The population is in open revolt and the country almost ungovernable.


The Mail has always said Greece, with its fragile economy, should never have been allowed to join the single currency.




If it still had the drachma, it could shrink its debts and improve its trading position by devaluation. But shackled to a strong euro, it is locked in agonising stasis.

If Greece were suddenly to crash out of the euro, the whole currency could collapse, sending Britain as well as the rest of Europe into deep depression.


To avert this nuclear threat, the eurozone will have to underwrite a Greek default or begin planning its orderly withdrawl from the euro – and soon. The alternative may be bloody anarchy.


One thing however, is certain. Whatever Mr Hollande may say, the answer to a debt crisis is not to keep piling up yet more debt and hoping the problem will go away.

If 13 years of Labour profligacy taught us anything, it taught us that.




How to show we care


With 20,000 elderly people still forced to sell their homes every year to meet care costs, reform of Britain’s broken system is shamefully overdue.


The Government-commissioned Dilnot report recommended a cap of £35,000-£50,000 on the amount anyone should have to pay, and that no one with savings under £100,000 should have to pay at all.


This sensible measure was shelved after the Treasury balked at the projected £1.7billion annual cost.

But even in these straitened times, is that really so much to pay to safeguard the well-being of the most vulnerable?




source: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2141017/Greek-tragedy-sink-euro.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

tennisbum79
May 8th, 2012, 01:03 AM
I am have often wondered why European youths are eager to embrace an ideology that has tried to subjugate and in some cases eliminate their parents?

Even French , British, Russian or polish youths, have not hesitated to join group that championed the ideology.


But now, their elder who live and witnessed the era are expeditiously embracing the ideology they once feared, this time directed at people blamed for Greece trouble

Halardfan
May 8th, 2012, 01:31 AM
I think it varies markedly from country to country...the situation in France is far different to that in Britain. The far-right is far stronger in France.

Even with the rise of fascism in the 30's there were economic issues that were the spark. At times of economic chaos some people lose faith in mainstream policies and turn to the extremes. They start to blame immigrants, minorities for all their woes. I think what is happening is what I expected in the wake of the economic collapse.

tennisbum79
May 8th, 2012, 01:38 AM
I think it varies markedly from country to country...the situation in France is far different to that in Britain. The far-right is far stronger in France.

Even with the rise of fascism in the 30's there were economic issues that were the spark. At times of economic chaos some people lose faith in mainstream policies and turn to the extremes. They start to blame immigrants, minorities for all their woes. I think what is happening is what I expected in the wake of the economic collapse.

I understand your point finding a villain in times of hard times, but don't think it is a little disturbing that these people adopt the tactic and the symbolism of the Nazi, those who put together that terrorize London, invaded France and topple their government, cause unspeakable suffering to Polish people.

KournikovaFan91
May 8th, 2012, 01:38 AM
7% is hardly embracing Nazism, the left were the big winners in Greece not the Nazis.

As for abandoning the establishment parties do you really expect anyone to vote for parties that caused the crisis? Obviously people turn to other alternatives but at this stage Nazism doesn't seem to be having a renaissance in Europe. The left win in France and make major gains in Greece not the extreme right.

tennisbum79
May 8th, 2012, 01:44 AM
7% is hardly embracing Nazism, the left were the big winners in Greece not the Nazis.
There should not even be a fraction is my point.

As for abandoning the establishment parties do you really expect anyone to vote for parties that caused the crisis?
I did not make such statement

Helen Lawson
May 8th, 2012, 01:48 AM
You don't think the same is going on here? Sure, less of the radicalism on both sides that we can easily label unlike in Europe, but I feel the politics here are as divided as I've ever seen and so many extremists. All there weird anti-abortion laws have been really odd, they came out of nowhere.

Expat
May 8th, 2012, 01:59 AM
You have tough economic times and mass immigration of people who don't share your culture and governments that don't care about it. I am surprised it isn't higher.

tennisbum79
May 8th, 2012, 02:09 AM
You have tough economic times and mass immigration of people who don't share your culture and governments that don't care about it. I am surprised it isn't higher.
Yes, that is what is happening.
But just because it is fact that it happens, does not make it right.
It is too simplistic to justify by simply starting because a country is going through tough economic times and the government has not been able to solve it, it is perfectly normal for the people to take their frustration on some other groups.


History teaches us, if the immigrants were not there, there would be another group to blame, a group integral part of the country, would be found to have values that are not shared by the rest.

pierce85
May 8th, 2012, 02:09 AM
Kournikovafan has it right, you are not well informed about the subject Tennisbum. The youth did NOT support 'Golden Dawn' party, it was mostly the people over 45 who voted it, almost all of the youngs under 30 voted for Syriza (leftist coalition)


People who voted for 'Golden Dawn" do not embrace nazism. They are mostly low-education people, fed up with the migration policy and the criminality raise and 'Golden Dawn' is the party with a pretty austere policy. These fools didn't even know that Golden Dawn is basically a neo-nazist party and their vote was a farce, I'm sure when all this blows out Golden Dawn will go back to its 0,20 percent

tennisbum79
May 8th, 2012, 02:18 AM
Kournikovafan has it right, you are not well informed about the subject Tennisbum. The youth did NOT support 'Golden Dawn' party, it was mostly the people over 45 who voted it, almost all of the youngs under 30 voted for Syriza (leftist coalition)
I don't disagree that the youth did not support Golden Dawn.
My point about the the youth in Europe is that they are casually willing to adopt the beliefs that caused their own parents such great suffering.



People who voted for 'Golden Dawn" do not embrace nazism. They are mostly low-education people, fed up with the migration policy and the criminality raise and 'Golden Dawn' is the party with a pretty austere policy. These fools didn't even know that Golden Dawn is basically a neo-nazist party and their vote was a farce, I'm sure when all this blows out Golden Dawn will go back to its 0,20 percent

Now back Golden Dawn, I find it even more disturbing, not less, that their support is older; because they should know better.
They know what the Nazis did.

I want to take you at your word it is by ignorance they voted for Golden Dawn, so does the Golden Dawn disguise itself as something other than what is being written about them? Using the Nazi salute in public?

pierce85
May 8th, 2012, 02:26 AM
I don't disagree that the you did not support Golden Dawn.
My point about the the youth in Europe is that they are casually willing to adopt the belief that caused their own parent such suffering.





Now back Golden Dawn, I find it even more disturbing, not less, that their support is older; because they should know better.
They know what the Nazis did.

I want to take you at your word it is by ignorance they voted for Golden Dawn, so does the Golden Dawn disguise itself as something other than what is being written about them? Using the Nazi salute in public?


Low education people don't know what every party represents. Furthermore, the Greek Media have made a "pact" and they have boycotted "Golden Dawn", so their leader hasn't ever been in the news presenting his party's program. Their deranged leader himself isn't willing to go on TV.

This party existed for decades and they got all of their votes by sending representatives out in the streets, terrorizing the elderly and uneducated people. Still I would hardly call 7% a big percentage. There is no need to worry, even after the vote every other party elected refuse to discuss with "Golden Dawn" so this is basically an isolated party!

Expat
May 8th, 2012, 02:28 AM
Yes, that is what is happening.
But just because it is fact that it happens, does not make it right.
It is too simplistic to justify by simply starting because a country is going through tough economic times and the government has not been able to solve it, it is perfectly normal for the people to take their frustration on some other groups.


History teaches us, if the immigrants were not there, there would be another group to blame, a group integral part of the country, would be found to have values that are not shared by the rest.

From what I understand it is almost impossible to walk in Athens without being mugged by immigrants even in normal times. In times of crisis you expect people to be happy that they are being looted of their belongings when they are themselves starving. The party in question has actually built its reputation by providing escorts for old ladies needing to go to banks or shop for groceries without being assaulted. Primarily its a law and order problem and the failure of mainstream parties to even acknowledge the problem of immigration. It may be a extreme party but its the only one that is tackling the problem on the streets. That's how it works.

Halardfan
May 8th, 2012, 02:30 AM
I understand your point finding a villain in times of hard times, but don't think it is a little disturbing that these people adopt the tactic and the symbolism of the Nazi, those who put together that terrorize London, invaded France and topple their government, cause unspeakable suffering to Polish people.

As a Brit with a Polish grandfather, it's natural that I would view anone who would turn to a fascist ideology with contempt. Indeed it is even more inexplicable when it occurs in nations that suffered most particularly because of such ideologies.

Likewise communism.

Halardfan
May 8th, 2012, 02:34 AM
From what I understand it is almost impossible to walk in Athens without being mugged by immigrants even in normal times. In times of crisis you expect people to be happy that they are being looted of their belongings when they are themselves starving. The party in question has actually built its reputation by providing escorts for old ladies needing to go to banks or shop for groceries without being assaulted. Primarily its a law and order problem and the failure of mainstream parties to even acknowledge the problem of immigration. It may be a extreme party but its the only one that is tackling the problem on the streets. That's how it works.

They are exploiting what is happening, as such groups have always done. Before we look to immigrant to blame, look first to people in the financial markets who played roulette, lost, then demanded that we all pick up the bill.

tennisbum79
May 8th, 2012, 02:41 AM
As a Brit with a Polish grandfather, it's natural that I would view anone who would turn to a fascist ideology with contempt. Indeed it is even more inexplicable when it occurs in nations that suffered most particularly because of such ideologies.

Likewise communism.
You are the first European who got my point.
It was no accident I mention those nations.

tennisbum79
May 8th, 2012, 02:48 AM
From what I understand it is almost impossible to walk in Athens without being mugged by immigrants even in normal times. In times of crisis you expect people to be happy that they are being looted of their belongings when they are themselves starving. The party in question has actually built its reputation by providing escorts for old ladies needing to go to banks or shop for groceries without being assaulted. Primarily its a law and order problem and the failure of mainstream parties to even acknowledge the problem of immigration. It may be a extreme party but its the only one that is tackling the problem on the streets. That's how it works.
I don't understand you.
You have been an immigrant yourself, but you have no hesitation in blaming them.

I am sure you are aware that the "desirable" immigrants, the Albanians are encouraged by this party operatives to attack the "undesirable" ones, Pakistanis, in their own neighborhood in order to drive them out of the country.

pierce85
May 8th, 2012, 02:50 AM
From what I understand it is almost impossible to walk in Athens without being mugged by immigrants even in normal times. In times of crisis you expect people to be happy that they are being looted of their belongings when they are themselves starving. The party in question has actually built its reputation by providing escorts for old ladies needing to go to banks or shop for groceries without being assaulted. Primarily its a law and order problem and the failure of mainstream parties to even acknowledge the problem of immigration. It may be a extreme party but its the only one that is tackling the problem on the streets. That's how it works.

That is not right, God knows I'm not trying to defend my country at all costs but Athens is practically much safer than other European capitals I've been to (London for example). There are only certain areas where it isn't safe to walk at night, just like in every capital but cops are patrolling almost everywhere, actually it's much more dangerous to get robbed while you're in your house in the center of Athens

All I'm trying to say to Tennisbum is it isn't safe to get your information from foreign media (even CNN,BBC). They have foreign journalists doing the job and they couldn't possibly know the situation from within .You can always count to learn what is going on from a native of the country.
I couldn't come to your country Tennisbum as a journalist and write about the elections because I wouldn't know the whole story, what is going on behind the scenes. But big networks need to get the job done, so many times they end up with inaccurate articles, often misleading the people.

For example when this crisis thing first came out big networks and journalists wrote about the widespread tax evasion in Greece, which is absolutely correct. But, they also chose to create a false information that Greeks don't work enough and retire at 50 (When statistics show that we work the most hours in the Eurozone), so there's an urban myth out that Greeks are lazy).


My point is you don't know who and what to believe in nowadays, most of the times you end up reading the journalist's opinion about what's going on and not objective facts.

tennisbum79
May 8th, 2012, 03:01 AM
All I'm trying to say to Tennisbum is it isn't safe to get your information from foreign media (even CNN,BBC). They have foreign journalists doing the job and they couldn't possibly know the situation from within .You can always count to learn what is going on from a native of the country.
I couldn't come to your country Tennisbum as a journalist and write about the elections because I wouldn't know the whole story, what is going on behind the scenes. But big networks need to get the job done, so many times they end up with inaccurate articles, often misleading the people.

This is a fair comment and point well taken.
I am an american but I emigrated here, and my country of origins has not always been reported on, in fair, diligent manner.

As it as it Western European journalists, will little chance of facing challenges when they report 3rd country, put less rigor and professionalism in their research, sourcing and writing.

But I am raising a larger point about European extremism adopting nazi tactics and symbolism, especially among the loss youth. And my point is the Europeans should not tolerate this, whether it is directed at foreigners or no, for they were victims of these tactics.

KournikovaFan91
May 8th, 2012, 03:12 AM
There should not even be a fraction is my point.


Like that is realistic, people have a variety of views, many undesirable but they have the right to those opinions.

As a democratic socialist I'm massively opposed to these Nazis but they can hold their ridiculous opinions and vote that way if they wish.

PhilePhile
May 8th, 2012, 09:04 AM
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