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AjdeNate!
Nov 19th, 2002, 07:36 PM
The scoop on Courtney Love's solo album -- Her
collaborators include music's hottest female producer,
Linda Perry by Brian Hiatt


Say goodbye to Courtney Love, professional litigant.
After settling her legal battles with Universal Music
Group and the surviving members of Nirvana, Love is
hard at work on her first-ever solo album. Former 4
Non Blondes leader Linda Perry, now best known as a
hit-making Svengali for the likes of Pink and
Christina Aguilera, is cowriting and producing
hard-rocking songs for the project. ''I just go in and
write punk songs with her and play guitar,'' Perry
tells EW.com. ''We write songs till five in the
morning and then she books studio time.''

Earlier this year, Love announced the breakup of her
longtime band Hole. (Their final album, ''Celebrity
Skin,'' was released in '98.) Love had briefly formed
a new group called Bastard, but she's now officially a
solo act, according to her manager, James Barber.
Former Hole drummer Patty Schemel is on board for the
project, along with a variety of other musicians.
Barber won't say if Love's found a new label, but a
spokesperson for the U.K.'s Poptones imprint denies
reports that she's signed there.

In any event, the new album's sound will be rawer than
that of ''Celebrity Skin,'' which boasted sweet pop
choruses and arena-sized production. Instead, the
release may take its cues from the new wave of garage
rock. ''Courtney's into the Strokes and the Hives
right now, plus Iggy Pop and PJ Harvey,'' says Perry.
''But it's always going to sound like Hole, because
it's Courtney.''

Barrie_Dude
Nov 19th, 2002, 07:37 PM
I wish her well

King Lindsay
Nov 19th, 2002, 08:09 PM
I would love to see Courtney wow everybody with an amazing record in 2003. I wonder if Eric's going to come in and lay down some licks?

Monica_Rules
Nov 19th, 2002, 08:14 PM
God i don't like her she majes me wanna puke!

King Lindsay
Nov 19th, 2002, 08:28 PM
You're right. It's just disgusting how she's the most important female rock musician of the last decade. Go back to listening to some crap pop star who couldn't carry her bra.

Hurley
Nov 19th, 2002, 08:34 PM
You know...two stellar albums since '94. It's time for more.

MLF
Nov 19th, 2002, 08:34 PM
She's great. Hole fans have known about this project for a long time now but articles like this suggest it won't be long for the new material to surface. I can't wait.

King Lindsay
Nov 19th, 2002, 08:36 PM
Does anybody know how old she is now? Actually, now that I think about it, I don'tthink anybody's that sure what her real age is. I think she's on the other side of 35 though? Gotta be around there.

Hurley
Nov 19th, 2002, 08:38 PM
You know...if Patty is on board, and you know Eric is going to help out a little...may as well just be a Hole record, no?

If they need someone to jump in on bass, I can recommend someone....one M. auf der Maur perhaps??

King Lindsay
Nov 19th, 2002, 08:39 PM
Look, here's my theory. I think Hole died because, you know, Courtney was bogged down with her 398572167q3509821 lawsuits this year. However, you just *know* that her and Eric are like, musical soulmates. Hole reformation! Hole reformation!

Hurley
Nov 19th, 2002, 08:41 PM
That's nothing, I had 398572167q3509823 lawsuits this year and still managed to form and dissolve three bands.

Eric Erlandson is not only a genius, he's also Eight Feet Tall.

King Lindsay
Nov 19th, 2002, 08:44 PM
I can't believe you went to the effort to type the exact number. Or did you copy and paste?

Eric had a mullet!!!!! Oh, it was so funny. A blond mullet. And the bangs were like, blonder than the rest of his hair.

Eric also just gets zero credit. I guess it's because Courtney's such a publicity/controversy/acclaim lightning rod.

Hurley
Nov 19th, 2002, 08:47 PM
C/P of course, yet I would hope you noticed that I did have two more lawsuits than Courtney in 2002.

Top Ten Hole songs? And when I say ten I mean TEN!

Hurley
Nov 19th, 2002, 08:52 PM
1. Violet
2. Northern Star
3. Reasons To Be Beautiful
4. Miss World
5. Malibu
6. Use Once And Destroy
7. Doll Parts
8. Jennifer's Body
9. Asking For It
10. Best Sunday Dress

Hurley
Nov 19th, 2002, 08:53 PM
*listens to CS*

King Lindsay
Nov 19th, 2002, 08:53 PM
I did not pick that up.

Top ten??? Oh God, this is subject to change.

1. Doll Parts.
2. Jennifer's Body
3. Violet
4. I Think That I Would Die
5. Best Sunday Dress
6. God, I just don't know what stands out on Celebrity Skin anymore. Uhhhhhh, how 'bout .... shit, I don't know. I can't pick just one from that record. It's all good, but not quite as good as the best stuff on LTT.

Honorable Mention: Teenage Whore, Old Age.

King Lindsay
Nov 19th, 2002, 08:55 PM
I did not know you liked Northern Star that much.

Miss World was a hit, and it was very original, but it's not top five.

Hurley
Nov 19th, 2002, 08:55 PM
See, this is why I said "When I say ten I mean TEN!" This wasn't meant to be easy.

My LTT is gone. I really cannot find it. It could be in Florida.

King Lindsay
Nov 19th, 2002, 08:56 PM
Oh, I forgot Be A Man. Love that song. Don't think it's top ten, but close.

King Lindsay
Nov 19th, 2002, 08:57 PM
Alright, alright. This is the bottom five.

6. Dying
7. Malibu (I can't be near you, the light just radiates)
8. Use Once and Destroy
9. Petals
10. Boys on the Radio

ttaM
Nov 19th, 2002, 08:57 PM
The 'Miss World' video is one of the best ever!

Anxious to hear this new album myself. My first concert was Hole back in '94.

King Lindsay
Nov 19th, 2002, 08:57 PM
Except I really want to put Plump somewhere ....

Hurley
Nov 19th, 2002, 08:57 PM
I like "Miss World" better than "Doll Parts," and yes of course you knew I liked "Northern Star" that much.

What really surprised me, looking over the discographies, is how much affection I had for "Malibu." But now I've hit "Awful" and it's SO GOOD! How could I forget this one!

Hurley
Nov 19th, 2002, 08:58 PM
"Petals" was #11.

King Lindsay
Nov 19th, 2002, 09:01 PM
I've never really liked Awful.

Now listen. You don't properly appreciate Doll Parts. Courtney Love was created to sing songs like that. It is PERFECT for her voice, and she makes you feel the lyrics. Come on, she fakes it so real she's beyond fake!

AjdeNate!
Nov 19th, 2002, 09:02 PM
1.Sugar Coma (rare b-side - revamped version is 'Boys On The Radio')
2.Jennifer's Body
3.Miss World
4.I Think That I Would Die
5.Doll Parts
6.Dakotah
7.Teenage Whore
8.Petals
9.Credit In The Straight World
10.Asking For It

King Lindsay
Nov 19th, 2002, 09:03 PM
At last! Someone else gets the genius of I Think That I Would Die!

Hurley
Nov 19th, 2002, 09:04 PM
"Doll Parts" is a great song. I just like the ones ahead of it better.

I still can't get past you and anyone else not putting "Violet" at #1. I mean...better than anything Kurt's ever done. One of the 10 best singles ever. Come on, that's the Hole gold standard; possibly the grunge gold standard.

AjdeNate!
Nov 19th, 2002, 09:05 PM
I love Hole. For about a 2 year span I lived and breathed Hole. (Ok, that doesn't sound good when said out loud). They were my Monica Seles replacement when she was out w/stabbing. I got out my agression with them instead of tennis. I've seen them 3 times lives, and each time I get bruised and battered beyond belief..... fucking mosh pit anyway :)

AjdeNate!
Nov 19th, 2002, 09:06 PM
Ooooh...Violet... well, that's my #11. :)

Hurley
Nov 19th, 2002, 09:07 PM
I almost died in a Hole mosh pit once as well. Ace! :D

King Lindsay
Nov 19th, 2002, 09:10 PM
Violet sets the tone for everything else that's to come on that record. And I will give you this. It is a great fucking song. I did put at 3, did I?

Actually, given the excellence of the video, it might even be better than that.

King Lindsay
Nov 19th, 2002, 09:12 PM
Hurley, I know you like Violet just that much more after I told you about the Sugareyes part.

Hurley
Nov 19th, 2002, 09:15 PM
See, I was going to start talking about the videos. Videos today suck! (I still have yet to see the Strokes' "Someday" with the GBV cameo though.) And every Hole video kicks my ass!

"Mailbu"! CS! "Violet," of course. And "Miss World"! And "Doll Parts"!

Is "Violet" a Romanek? The only qualm I have with the "Violet" video is it reminds me of the "Closer" video...but if it's part of his oeuvre, I can accept it. Besides, they're both brilliant. Eight thousand times better than Spike "Sabotage" Jonze, Mr. Mark Romanek. Too bad Jonze trumped him in the movie biz with "Malkovich." But Romanek wrote something coming out soon...

Digression. "Dying." This is a good song. A bit too slow but hey. Courtney is forgiven.

Hurley
Nov 19th, 2002, 09:16 PM
Sugareyes!! Who knew!

King Lindsay
Nov 19th, 2002, 09:18 PM
When Dying gets going, it's awesome.

You have to like the Doll Parts video. The blond boy? Who is he supposed to be, I wonder? And then when Courtney breaks stuff at the end. Exactly the right video for the song.

The video for Violet does in no way remind me of the Closer video. Violet is lot of movement and quick cuts. There are quick cuts in the Closer video, but basically to set scenes. You don't get the same feeling of rapid pace as you do watching the Violent video.

King Lindsay
Nov 19th, 2002, 09:19 PM
I knew! I really did!

Here's the mission of the day. What was the reason they recorded "Best Sunday Dress"?

Hurley
Nov 19th, 2002, 09:23 PM
Maybe she was going to church?

I haven't seen either video in a while. But both videos featured tea-soaked vintage film, absurd use of freeze-frame and mismatched audio-video tracking, and screaming lead singers (I think both blindfolded at points).

Do you possibly remember watching that video on "Beavis and Butt-head," and when the opening title card came on, Beavis said, "Alright, this video is going to be violent!"

Hurley
Nov 19th, 2002, 09:24 PM
Another reason why Hole rules is that Courtney always sings in my key. And she's only one octave higher, instead of the two or three common on pop radio.

King Lindsay
Nov 19th, 2002, 09:27 PM
The Violet video was in a strip club. If the Closer video was anywhere, it would be in an S&M fetishes' home. So probably it was recorded in Trent's basement. I still don't think they're that much alike.

I don't remember seeing that Beavis and .... actually, yes I fucking do! That was hilarious!

Speaking of Courtney's singing, I have this MP3 of her doing "Violet" on SNL. The grunge up the song, it's muddy and live and all, but she just snarls the lyrics! Like, viciously. You'd have to hear it to know. Reminds me why she's my favorite vocalist.

AjdeNate!
Nov 19th, 2002, 09:27 PM
I think we all can sounds like Court -smile-

Hurley
Nov 19th, 2002, 09:29 PM
Do you remember when they did Violet on the MTV awards and she threw her guitar and went insane on stage? And no one clapped?

King Lindsay
Nov 19th, 2002, 09:30 PM
Not at all. What year was that? And what did the insanity involve? Was this during the heroin period?

Hurley
Nov 19th, 2002, 09:32 PM
What year did "Violet" break? 1995 or 1996? It could have also been the Movie Awards.

The insane part came at the end, after she threw her guitar. She ran her hands through her hair and she kept darting her head back and forth with wild eyes, stumbled and nearly started crying. The audience was, like, stunned.

She could have been riding the white horse at that time.

I was going to yell at you for the "Boys on the Radio" selection, but the bridge floored me so I guess I'll bump it up to "mediocre."

King Lindsay
Nov 19th, 2002, 09:35 PM
"Violet" broke in 1995.

The bridge of "Boys on the Radio" is by the far the best part.

Why the hell did she throw her guitar in the first place?

AjdeNate!
Nov 19th, 2002, 09:40 PM
Remember the SNL Performance around Xmas 94 (?), where at the end of Doll Parts, she sang a new 'verse'. "God rest your sou......l", etc.

Hurley
Nov 19th, 2002, 09:43 PM
Why the hell did she throw her guitar in the first place? Because she's Courtney Fucking Love, that's why!

I do remember them being on SNL, but I don't remember that, no. There are a lot of things I wish I could remember from 1994 but it's so long ago.

King Lindsay
Nov 19th, 2002, 09:44 PM
Actually no. I didn't ever see the performance, nor do I have that particular Doll Parts version, though I have about 5 different live versions of that song.

JonBcn
Nov 19th, 2002, 09:49 PM
I've died and gone to Heaven!! A Hole appreciation thread.

Not much to add - they were the greatest band to walk the earth. Saw em live 12 (or was it 13?) times, have listened to at least some of Live Through this (the greatest album ever released) just about every day since it was released.

How I wish I still had my rockin' Courtney avatar.

Hurley
Nov 19th, 2002, 10:06 PM
Ah, I knew you'd be in here soon enough, Jon.

I really have to find my LTT! This will kill me!

JonBcn
Nov 19th, 2002, 10:08 PM
My LTT is signed by the Lovester herself! <insert smug smilie here>

Hurley
Nov 19th, 2002, 10:11 PM
BITCH!

JonBcn
Nov 19th, 2002, 10:14 PM
Not at all, she was lovely!

Oh, you meant me...

Hurley
Nov 19th, 2002, 10:20 PM
She is lovely, so lovely. Grunge or glam, that's a mountain I'd climb.

King Lindsay
Nov 19th, 2002, 10:21 PM
OH MY GOD YOU HAD IT SIGNED BY COURTNEY DEAR GOD OH HELL ON EARTH WHY OH WHY CAN'T I BE YOU!

Jon, you have to give us your top ten now. Come on, we've all done it.

AjdeNate!
Nov 19th, 2002, 10:26 PM
How could I forget Drown Soda????

<<Oh yeah he wants to take you. Take you away from your life. Oh yeah he wants to take you, take you away from your lies. Oh yeah, he wants to take you, take you by the hand. Oh god, just let him rape you. Baby, I think you'll understand. Just you wait till everyone is hooked.>>

JonBcn
Nov 19th, 2002, 10:31 PM
Oh, if you insist...

1. Violet - the greatest song ever written
2. Pretty on the Inside
3. I Think That I Would Die
4. Drown Soda (live)
5. Doll Parts
6. 20 years in the Dakota (wait til u hear the 2003 version of this song; you'll die)
7. Teenage Whore
8. Rock Star
9. Whose Porno You Burn (Black)
10. Northern Star(live)

I love Clouds and Pale Blue Eyes too, but didnt include them as they're covers...

Hurley
Nov 19th, 2002, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by JonBcn
1. Violet - the greatest song ever written

Sheesh, finally.

2. Pretty on the Inside
3. I Think That I Would Die
4. Drown Soda (live)
5. Doll Parts
6. 20 years in the Dakota (wait til u hear the 2003 version of this song; you'll die)
7. Teenage Whore
8. Rock Star
9. Whose Porno You Burn (Black)
10. Northern Star(live)

I knew you'd be a big bitch and pick songs I've never heard. *kick*

Whoops...not all of those should have been in there...sloppy editing. But this "Drown Soda"...don't know it. And "Whose Porno You Burn"?

King Lindsay
Nov 19th, 2002, 10:44 PM
There's going to be a 2003 version?

JonBcn
Nov 19th, 2002, 10:59 PM
Jas - Drown Soda was originally the b-side of teenage Whore. they also did it at the Unplugged session, and it sounds best live.

Burn Black was also a bside of Teenage Whore, and first appeared on their second single, Dicknail, on SubPop in '91. On the LTT tour it reappeared as a medley, with an improvised number 'Whose Porno You Burn' (refrain: 'You dont listen to what I say / just masturbate your life away), and came out as a live addition to the 'Violet' ep in the UK.


King Lindsay (hello!) - At Courtneys penultimate gig, 27/10/01, she did an incredible version of this, that she wants to release...its much longer, and segues into a medley of the Beatles 'Hey Jude' - fitting, as the song is originally an ode to Yoko Ono.

God, I'm such an anorak...

King Lindsay
Nov 19th, 2002, 11:04 PM
Hmm, well, I'll look out for it. I know she has a few songs kicking around that she was doing with Bastard. What of those ones? Like, "all the Drugs" etc, etc. Think they'll make the solo album?

I have never found a good version of Nothern Star live. I'm assuming you have one?

JonBcn
Nov 19th, 2002, 11:11 PM
Yeah...there was an Australian limited edition of Celebrity Skin came with a 6 track live EP, recorded at Big Day Out (Pretty on the Inside, Heaven Tonight, Northern Star, Awful, Paradise City, Celebrity Skin), also featuring lots of amusing banter between CLove and the crowd.

It was also released on the Australian 'Awful' maxi cd, which you can find on import, which features Awful (obviously), plus POTI; HT; NS & Awful live -from the same Big Day Out- , plus Awful, the (gulp) Ted Ottavian Club remix. Plus a 12 page souvenir foto booklet, shot by Melissa.

JonBcn
Nov 19th, 2002, 11:15 PM
Oh, and of your other question...All The Drugs seems a bit stodgy, she needs to get a hook in there...reminded me of something like reasons to be beautiful, which Inever warmed to.

'But Julian, I'm a Little Older than You', however, is KILLER and would easily be her biggest hit yet. I've only heard the one version, live at the gig I mentioned before, but it is heart stoppingly good - sample line: "no one in this room fucks me better than your wife!", incredibly catchy too. The live version ended up an as improv, and went on for 7 minutes...if she cuts it down the 3, she has a big hit on her hands...

and (thankfully) this was before Linda Perry...

Hurley
Nov 20th, 2002, 02:55 AM
Linda Perry. Well, I doubt Courtney will turn into Pink. That would be worthy of a mass suicide. I mean, Pink! I think I'll just change my name to Chartreuse.

But. Granted, I've only heard one 4 Non Blondes song, but it's great. Do not deny the brilliance of "What's Up?" So there is potential. But I don't understand how the leader of a one-hit wonder band (whose one hit verges on novelty status) became so revered. Is there something I'm missing about Linda Perry? It can't just be the square jaw and dreadlocks.

And, also, apparently Billy has a new band? Called the Swans or Swan or something? They are going to be playing the WHFS holiday festival. I will not be attending, even though there will be some great bands, because I'm not 15. Or will I? And am I?

King Lindsay
Nov 20th, 2002, 08:23 AM
Billy has had a new band for a long time. Zwan. Jimmy Chamberlain is the drummer in it too.

So Jon, that would be Big Day Out 1999? Maybe I can find something on Kazaa. I've never really looked that hard. I downloaded all the live stuff off her website, but some of it wouldn't work at all, and a lot of the rest was of poor quality.

Beat
Nov 20th, 2002, 10:49 AM
can anybody tell me what that one-off single after "pretty on the inside"was called? something like "beautiful son" or "my beautiful one" or something? i really liked that track!

King Lindsay
Nov 20th, 2002, 11:13 AM
It was called "Beautiful Son". Was not on Pretty On The Inside, actually, I don't thinkit was ever released on anything ????? But it was recorded sometime in late 92-1993ish.

MLF
Nov 20th, 2002, 12:25 PM
Beautiful Son is great. It was released as a single in the UK and was Hole's first charting single so it was a big day for Hole fans!! It reached the heady position of #54.

King Lindsay
Nov 20th, 2002, 12:29 PM
I guess it's pretty good ... I think it could've been better, actually. Sounds too much like a paint-by-numbers grunge song that they didn't put too much effort into.

Hurley
Nov 20th, 2002, 06:05 PM
You know in the CS booklet where every songwriter has an icon? Billy's is a swan. Food for thought.

So Zwan has been around for a while? You know I don't follow Billy like you do. And Jimmy Chamberlain! That's asking for trouble. Again, you just know James and D'Arcy are going to jump in at one point, and so can't they just call themselves Smashing Pumpkins?

King Lindsay
Nov 20th, 2002, 06:09 PM
Yeah, I noticed that about the CS booklet. I guess he likes swans.

Um, did you hear what Billy said about James, Jimmy, and D'Arcy? He said he "took three people who could barely play their instruments" and made a great band. So don't look for a reconciliation anytime soon. Besides, him and D'Arcy had a huge falling out.

AjdeNate!
Nov 20th, 2002, 06:09 PM
I miss D'Arcy... she's so outrageous.

King Lindsay
Nov 20th, 2002, 06:10 PM
D'Arcy got busted for crack-cocaine possession not long after she left the Pumpkins. Also, I heard she had some sort of plastic surgery on her face. But I haven't heard anything about her for a while.

Hurley
Nov 20th, 2002, 06:12 PM
Didn't he date D'Arcy for a while?

But it's true...I know D'Arcy in particular couldn't really play bass when the Pumpkins were formed. Whether she ever learned is also up in the air.

King Lindsay
Nov 20th, 2002, 06:18 PM
Yeah, he did date D'Arcy.

Hurley
Nov 20th, 2002, 06:22 PM
I should really start a band with all of my exes. That would be incredible.

King Lindsay
Nov 20th, 2002, 06:28 PM
Heh! It would be an all-male band!

JonBcn
Nov 20th, 2002, 06:30 PM
ooh, I love this thread. Beautiful Son surfaced on the compilation album 'My Body, the Hand Grenade' in 1998 too.

King Lindsay, I'd be happy to do you a cd-r of the happy event if you like. Anything for a fellow Hole devotee!

Everyone knows Billy Corgan is an insane meglomaniac. But he's a genius. I wish the Pumpkins had consistently attained the standard of Siamese Dream...got a bit patchy at the end.

Candy946
Nov 20th, 2002, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by King Lindsay
Does anybody know how old she is now? Actually, now that I think about it, I don'tthink anybody's that sure what her real age is. I think she's on the other side of 35 though? Gotta be around there.
She's 37.

Beat
Nov 20th, 2002, 06:31 PM
speaking of d'arcy, wasn't she meant to record a solo album (with a little help from - now we draw a circle - courtney)? i guess crack-cocaine got in the way :(

JonBcn
Nov 20th, 2002, 06:35 PM
Not sure about D'Arcy's solo stuff.

Has anyone heard the solo warblings of Melissa Auf Der Maur though? I really liked the dynamic she added to Hole live, but unfortunately her solo stuff was pants.

Hurley
Nov 20th, 2002, 06:40 PM
James Iha's was crap as well. These people should know better.

JonBcn
Nov 20th, 2002, 06:41 PM
Can you imagine Jimmy's? *s*******

Hurley
Nov 20th, 2002, 06:44 PM
This is why I fear solo projects, even from a genius like Courtney. No matter how much she ran Hole, there were other people there to at least throw their two cents in, making sure she didn't go too far off the boil. I hope Eric does have a lot of input...and that she thanks him first!

JonBcn
Nov 20th, 2002, 06:59 PM
I got the impression Eric isnt involved in this project at all. Having said that, Courtney has said that some of the stuff dates back to Hole days when things couldnt be released for legal reasons, so I wouldnt be surprised to see him get a credit or two.

The live band will be Courtney, Patty and two session guys called Jerry and Steve.

AjdeNate!
Nov 20th, 2002, 07:14 PM
Those 2 should start their own band.... I mean Jerry and Steve. I can see it now "Two Session Guys Called Jerry And Steve are releasing their first CD, called Two Session Guys Called Jerry And Steve'. ..... :)

King Lindsay
Nov 20th, 2002, 07:19 PM
Jon, thanks for the offer, but I don't want to put you through all that trouble for me! I'll see what I can dig up on the net first.

From the sounds of it, Courtney's going away from the polished sounds of CS on this solo album. I heard the word "punk" being dropped a few times, did I not?

Courtney's 37? Thanks. She was a little older than Kurt, I guess.

JonBcn
Nov 20th, 2002, 07:27 PM
Its no trouble. Its all on my hard drive so will only take ten minutes. If you cant find anything, just let me know!

From the sound of the last gig, which admittedly was 13 months ago now, it was definitely going in a more punk-pop LTT type vein. Fingers crossed.

TS
Nov 21st, 2002, 02:50 AM
Originally posted by JonBcn
Yeah...there was an Australian limited edition of Celebrity Skin came with a 6 track live EP, recorded at Big Day Out (Pretty on the Inside, Heaven Tonight, Northern Star, Awful, Paradise City, Celebrity Skin), also featuring lots of amusing banter between CLove and the crowd.

It was also released on the Australian 'Awful' maxi cd, which you can find on import, which features Awful (obviously), plus POTI; HT; NS & Awful live -from the same Big Day Out- , plus Awful, the (gulp) Ted Ottavian Club remix. Plus a 12 page souvenir foto booklet, shot by Melissa.

ooh I have that one ;-)

Cant wait for the CD, very curious to see what Courtney comes up with, especially with Linda Perry as producer....very weird duo if ever I have seen one.