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C. W. Fields
Feb 1st, 2012, 09:02 AM
The last volume has passed 5000 posts, time to start a new one. It's not the most positive of times with Caro just losing the #1 ranking and firing her coach, but while there isn't much we can do about that we can at least try to keep a civil tone here, even if we're somewhat frustrated about the way Caro's career is going right now. Ok?

http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/959/ap201201220456177782240.jpg

Volume 4 (http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=429190)
Volume 3 (http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=384645)
Volume 2 (http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=335296)
Volume 1 (http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=127509)

JadeFox
Feb 1st, 2012, 09:33 AM
The ending of that last thread was... dramatic. :lol: It's weird when DIAH is the most positive person out of that conversation.

It's hard to say what caused Team Caro to split from Ricardo so soon. Judging from the article from the Interviews and Articles thread, it seemed like things didn't mesh well. Chemistry is an important part of a coach/player relationship so if it wasn't working out then it best to cut it off now before things get too deep.

I'm just taking the wait and see approach.

Chrissie-fan
Feb 1st, 2012, 10:03 AM
The ending of that last thread was... dramatic. :lol: It's weird when DIAH is the most positive person out of that conversation.

It's hard to say what caused Team Caro to split from Ricardo so soon. Judging from the article from the Interviews and Articles thread, it seemed like things didn't mesh well. Chemistry is an important part of a coach/player relationship so if it wasn't working out then it best to cut it off now before things get too deep.

I'm just taking the wait and see approach.
Yeah, that's basically the only thing we CAN do. We will see in the coming months where her game is at. Hard to say for an outsider who's right or wrong.

TennisFan66
Feb 1st, 2012, 11:58 AM
There was articles suggesting Sanchez would be evaluated post AO. I personally expressed scepticism, but it must have been correct. If you know something isn't working, it's best to acknowledge this and act accordingly.

That other 'observers' will cry 'knee jerk reaction' and 'panic' etc etc shouldn't bare any weight. If Caroline didn't feel it was working, as she had hoped, no point in continuing.

If Caroline can find her form from 2nd half 2010, 1st half 2011, I'd personally be pleased.

Many posters and 'experts' want Caroline to severe ties with her father. It's not up to any of us though. It's up to Caroline and just because most of us don't live in a similarly tightly knit family, it doesn't mean the Wozniackis cannot have good family relations.

It's her life. It's her family. It's her business. Not ours.

goldenlox
Feb 1st, 2012, 01:10 PM
When a parent is coach, a new coach has to get along with that parent. He has her ear every day. Her parents are 2 people Caroline trusts.
Anyway, lets see how she plays now. Last year she only lost 1 match from AO loss to Miami loss, all titles & a final in between

bruce goose
Feb 1st, 2012, 01:49 PM
Am a huge supporter of the family bonds from which Caroline draws strength;however,it seems pretty silly....am using a 'nice' word here....to quit on a new strategy after less than 1 month...and only TWO tourneys.It's somewhat similar to my people who take English classes for two weeks and then quit cuz "it's too difficult".Honestly,if Caroline is THAT omniscient such that she can know something would never work after such a short time,then she's so wise that she doesn't need coaching at all.

Caro has proven that she's not a lazy fraud like one other gal who's become a joke with her coaching carousel....she's willing to put in the work.Therefore,it's natural to at least speculate that Piotr disapproved and talked Caro out of the coaching relationship

Burisleif
Feb 1st, 2012, 06:06 PM
I'm reminded of the debate regarding the 'Director of Football' approach.

Joey Bandaid as the opening pic :)

backhandsmash
Feb 1st, 2012, 07:09 PM
Even if she does not perform optimally the next six months, there is a good chance she'll still stay in top 5. There is a pretty big gap between #4 and #5. The #1 position is far, far away at this point.
There is a very good chance Vika will jump into a huge lead over everyone else (like Woz had when she was at 10k points) and keep it until the US hardcourt season.

Burisleif
Feb 1st, 2012, 08:13 PM
On the subject of BH Slice. Any opinions on how effective it is against the the more extreme BB's out their? IIRC Caro mixed in some BH CC Slice at the USO vs Maria, and they were either beaten DTL for a winner or completely threw Maria and forced a shot straight in the net from a controlling position.

I'm sort of hoping she keeps on developing the shot as part of her arsenal.

backhandsmash
Feb 1st, 2012, 08:20 PM
Biggest problem is still lack of conviction when a killshot is right in front of her. It drives me crazy every match.

DownInAHole
Feb 1st, 2012, 09:24 PM
Even if she does not perform optimally the next six months, there is a good chance she'll still stay in top 5. There is a pretty big gap between #4 and #5. The #1 position is far, far away at this point.
There is a very good chance Vika will jump into a huge lead over everyone else (like Woz had when she was at 10k points) and keep it until the US hardcourt season.

Viktoria does have an all court game, grass arguably being her weakest surface, so she could build up quite a lead. Petra did win Paris last year but otherwise she had a rough run last February/March so she could gain quite a few points if she does well this year. Maria appears to be skipping Doha and Dubai, Caroline would be doing herself a huge favour with deep runs at either or both of them.

I'm hoping that Caroline's clay schedule this year is not quite as hectic as it was in 2011.

DownInAHole
Feb 1st, 2012, 09:29 PM
On the subject of BH Slice. Any opinions on how effective it is against the the more extreme BB's out their? IIRC Caro mixed in some BH CC Slice at the USO vs Maria, and they were either beaten DTL for a winner or completely threw Maria and forced a shot straight in the net from a controlling position.

I'm sort of hoping she keeps on developing the shot as part of her arsenal.

I'm glad she is moving away from that ugly looking two handed backhand slice. I can not recall the Sharapova match but I'm definitely hoping she develops the confidence and ability to use "new" shots when she really needs them. We have often seen her try new things against very low ranked opponents, with varying degrees of success, but not so often when she gets deep into tournaments.

Jimmie48
Feb 1st, 2012, 09:30 PM
I'm hoping that Caroline's clay schedule this year is not quite as hectic as it was in 2011.

The only possible change I see is that she might not play Charleston, but Copenhagen is just a few weeks later. It'll be more or less the same.

DownInAHole
Feb 1st, 2012, 09:50 PM
The only possible change I see is that she might not play Charleston, but Copenhagen is just a few weeks later. It'll be more or less the same.

Charleston ends on April 8th and Copenhagen starts on April 9th (though they will probably push Caroline's first match back to the 10th). I really hope she skips Charleston. If she does she will be going from Miami (hardcourt) to Copenhagen (hardcourt) to (presumably) Stuttgart (clay), that makes a bit more sense plus it will give her some rest. April actually doesn't look too hectic with her likely playing Charleston (April 2-8), Copenhagen (April 9-15) and Stuttgart (April 23-29), although if she does go deep in Miami things may get a bit dicey (she could play the final on March 31st). May could really be packed if she plays all of the following: Madrid (May 5-13), Rome (May 14-20), Brussels (May 21-26) and then Roland Garros (May 27-June 9). To give herself any hope at all at Roland Garros she really should skip either Rome or Brussels.

Jimmie48
Feb 1st, 2012, 09:56 PM
Well most top players play both Rome and Madrid, the sensible tournament to drop would be Brussels. But I have a feeling she'll be playing there again, especially since she's the defending champion.

goldenlox
Feb 1st, 2012, 10:38 PM
All of them, Vika, Maria, Petra, have a lot less to defend.
A year ago this was when Caroline was playing great every tournament.
So the best she can do this year is stay close in the race. As long as she's right there in 2012 points, it will be a meaningful 2nd half of the year.

Besides ranking, the other issue is majors. She has to be more consistent match to match.
Li broke her 6 of 7 times after Caro was 1 point from a win. She was 2 points from beating Cibulkova.
The losses to Dani & Kim she started down 06 14, and 36 25.

She needs 7 good matches, start to finish. There's no magic to it. Be consistent for a full tournament

terjw
Feb 1st, 2012, 11:55 PM
Charleston ends on April 8th and Copenhagen starts on April 9th (though they will probably push Caroline's first match back to the 10th). I really hope she skips Charleston. If she does she will be going from Miami (hardcourt) to Copenhagen (hardcourt) to (presumably) Stuttgart (clay), that makes a bit more sense plus it will give her some rest. April actually doesn't look too hectic with her likely playing Charleston (April 2-8), Copenhagen (April 9-15) and Stuttgart (April 23-29), although if she does go deep in Miami things may get a bit dicey (she could play the final on March 31st). May could really be packed if she plays all of the following: Madrid (May 5-13), Rome (May 14-20), Brussels (May 21-26) and then Roland Garros (May 27-June 9). To give herself any hope at all at Roland Garros she really should skip either Rome or Brussels.

She should be skipping Charleston and Brussels. Yes - both tournaments she's won and this makes it hard for her to say no. But she needs to be hard-nosed about this and be sensible. The priority is to give herself the best chance at RG.

The two tournaments I will never ask her to drop though are Copenhagen and New Haven. In thinking about a good schedule - it is completely unrealistic to suggest a schedule that does not include these two. They are both very special to her. But she can't have lots of other very special sacred tournaments if she wants to give herself the best chance at the slams as well.

I think skipping Rome should be out thhe question. But I think serious thought ought to be given to skipping Cinci or Toronto - and not just this year.

bruce goose
Feb 2nd, 2012, 05:11 AM
The last volume has passed 5000 posts, time to start a new one. It's not the most positive of times with Caro just losing the #1 ranking and firing her coach, but while there isn't much we can do about that we can at least try to keep a civil tone here, even if we're somewhat frustrated about the way Caro's career is going right now. Ok?

http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/959/ap201201220456177782240.jpg

Volume 4 (http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=429190)
Volume 3 (http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=384645)
Volume 2 (http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=335296)
Volume 1 (http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=127509)Should've praised it earlier,but this really is a lovely thread-starting pic:hearts:

lang26
Feb 2nd, 2012, 06:36 AM
Let just Hope and Wish For the Best I Hope she find another Coach and Get rid of her Dad as a Coach.

DownInAHole
Feb 2nd, 2012, 07:37 AM
She should be skipping Charleston and Brussels. Yes - both tournaments she's won and this makes it hard for her to say no. But she needs to be hard-nosed about this and be sensible. The priority is to give herself the best chance at RG.

The two tournaments I will never ask her to drop though are Copenhagen and New Haven. In thinking about a good schedule - it is completely unrealistic to suggest a schedule that does not include these two. They are both very special to her. But she can't have lots of other very special sacred tournaments if she wants to give herself the best chance at the slams as well.

I think skipping Rome should be out thhe question. But I think serious thought ought to be given to skipping Cinci or Toronto - and not just this year.

Yes, given the option Brussels should be skipped over Rome but she likes playing the week before a slam so maybe it would be easier for her to skip Rome? Of course she very rarely misses any of the mandatory/premiere five events so that is probably not an option either. It's just kind of crazy that she could be playing five weeks in a row (depending on how deep she goes).

Maybe fatigue was a factor last year at Roland Garros but she did not want to say it? I think that is the only way she would consider trimming her schedule.

Burisleif
Feb 2nd, 2012, 03:45 PM
Yes, given the option Brussels should be skipped over Rome but she likes playing the week before a slam so maybe it would be easier for her to skip Rome? Of course she very rarely misses any of the mandatory/premiere five events so that is probably not an option either. It's just kind of crazy that she could be playing five weeks in a row (depending on how deep she goes).

Maybe fatigue was a factor last year at Roland Garros but she did not want to say it? I think that is the only way she would consider trimming her schedule.

It had to be, she wasn't just playing, she was preseason fitness training as well as playing.

gdmirou
Feb 2nd, 2012, 06:37 PM
There was articles suggesting Sanchez would be evaluated post AO. I personally expressed scepticism, but it must have been correct. If you know something isn't working, it's best to acknowledge this and act accordingly.

That other 'observers' will cry 'knee jerk reaction' and 'panic' etc etc shouldn't bare any weight. If Caroline didn't feel it was working, as she had hoped, no point in continuing.

If Caroline can find her form from 2nd half 2010, 1st half 2011, I'd personally be pleased.

Many posters and 'experts' want Caroline to severe ties with her father. It's not up to any of us though. It's up to Caroline and just because most of us don't live in a similarly tightly knit family, it doesn't mean the Wozniackis cannot have good family relations.

It's her life. It's her family. It's her business. Not ours.

Gotta agree.

goldenlox
Feb 2nd, 2012, 08:20 PM
There might come a time when she separates with her dad. Sharapova did it around 21. Dementieva always kept her mom around.
Its important that she's comfortable with the situation, because the sport is very mental and she has to feel ready and eager to play with her coaching situation.
You can never totally evaluate it from the outside.

Jorn
Feb 2nd, 2012, 08:24 PM
She don't want a new coach now, just dad and the Adidas team as before. After the departure from that other coach she will stay with her dad ithink some years now...

terjw
Feb 2nd, 2012, 09:56 PM
It had to be, she wasn't just playing, she was preseason fitness training as well as playing.

That fitness training idea of Piotr's in the clay season last year didn't work out very well though. She hasn't got very good results at RG. I think clay is her worst surface and so does she. She's got nothing to lose by trying something different like cutting down on her matches around then.

Burisleif
Feb 2nd, 2012, 10:08 PM
That fitness training idea of Piotr's in the clay season last year didn't work out very well though. She hasn't got very good results at RG. I think clay is her worst surface and so does she. She's got nothing to lose by trying something different like cutting down on her matches around then.

I think they did it because of the fatigue she showed in Miami, but It was a near disaster indeed.

goldenlox
Feb 3rd, 2012, 01:24 AM
In 2010 Caro played Fran in the FO QF, and Fran won that title.
Losing to Hantuchova was a bad result.
I still think she can compete for the FO title. She beat Fran in Brussels, played okay in Rome, Stuttgart.

Maybe the heavy workouts were a mistake. But ultimately Caroline cannot start down 16 14 to anyone on clay, especially a noncontender. And Caro missed an easy shortball on game point early in set 2.
She has to be sharp each round at a major. She won 18 titles, play well every match at majors.

bruce goose
Feb 3rd, 2012, 05:16 AM
At a very minimum,Piotr bears--not 'bares';)--some blame for the lousy scheduling;it's hard for me to believe that he couldn't persuade Caro to cut back a bit...and,as an ex-pro athlete,there's less excuse for him to be ignorant of the potential fatigue factor on Caroline.

It's kind of stupidly obvious to say that 'it's her life';who else's would it be:lol:?Though I'm very pleased that Caroline has a loving,stable family,I wouldn't seeing Pop step back somewhat if he can't plan her tour calendar any better

Burisleif
Feb 3rd, 2012, 05:40 AM
^ Hard to plan against being a victim of your own success when your normally a slow season starter.

Protoss
Feb 3rd, 2012, 05:59 AM
There might come a time when she separates with her dad. Sharapova did it around 21. Dementieva always kept her mom around.
Its important that she's comfortable with the situation, because the sport is very mental and she has to feel ready and eager to play with her coaching situation.
You can never totally evaluate it from the outside.
If there is a new coach at some point, Piotr needs to not be part of the coaching process in order for it to work. :shrug:

After Wimbledon last year it sounded like she wanted to move on from Piotr as her coach.

goldenlox
Feb 3rd, 2012, 06:15 PM
The next major is not until late May. For now, I want to see Caroline have a few deep runs at some of these premiers, and stay near the top in 2012 points.
New Haven is the only final she's played since June. Thats a long time ago

bruce goose
Feb 4th, 2012, 05:25 AM
New Haven is the only final she's played since June. Thats a long time agoNot to totally sidestep the current,relevant issues,but folks should call New Haven,and not Copenhagen the 'Caro Open' for how she has dominated that worthy title

marineblue
Feb 5th, 2012, 09:33 PM
When a parent is coach, a new coach has to get along with that parent. He has her ear every day. Her parents are 2 people Caroline trusts.
Anyway, lets see how she plays now. Last year she only lost 1 match from AO loss to Miami loss, all titles & a final in between


I agree. I think Sanchez had unrealistic expectations about their cooperation. How could he expect that Piotr would just let him make changes and step aside after all the years he spent working with Caroline?! With no practical experience with tennis he's turned her to a top-class player. I think it is understandable that he was very concerned about her future and not prepared to let a new face in the team take over everything from one day to another.

I get the impression that Sanchez came to their team with an outlook to change things, he doesn't sound like he had a lot of belief in their approach and wasn't prepared to build on that. I think that a good coach would not try to force them work differently since the start of cooperation but would take things slowly and more carefully AND strive to create a good working relationship with her father.

bruce goose
Feb 6th, 2012, 05:48 AM
I agree. I think Sanchez had unrealistic expectations about their cooperation. How could he expect that Piotr would just let him make changes and step aside after all the years he spent working with Caroline?! With no practical experience with tennis he's turned her to a top-class player. I think it is understandable that he was very concerned about her future and not prepared to let a new face in the team take over everything from one day to another.

I get the impression that Sanchez came to their team with an outlook to change things, he doesn't sound like he had a lot of belief in their approach and wasn't prepared to build on that. I think that a good coach would not try to force them work differently since the start of cooperation but would take things slowly and more carefully AND strive to create a good working relationship with her father.There's a lot of sound reasoning to what you've shared above,and it also makes it more believable when other posters claim that Piotr found one of his old buddies to work with Caroline

marineblue
Feb 6th, 2012, 07:30 AM
I think that could be the case. Now he will probably want to have just a consultant instead of a coach.:lol::angel:

DownInAHole
Feb 6th, 2012, 07:47 AM
I agree. I think Sanchez had unrealistic expectations about their cooperation. How could he expect that Piotr would just let him make changes and step aside after all the years he spent working with Caroline?! With no practical experience with tennis he's turned her to a top-class player. I think it is understandable that he was very concerned about her future and not prepared to let a new face in the team take over everything from one day to another.

I get the impression that Sanchez came to their team with an outlook to change things, he doesn't sound like he had a lot of belief in their approach and wasn't prepared to build on that. I think that a good coach would not try to force them work differently since the start of cooperation but would take things slowly and more carefully AND strive to create a good working relationship with her father.

I think that Caroline needs to take control of her future and forget about Piotr (as a coach). Maybe I am wrong but it appears that she has grown as a player as much as she can with him as her coach. Since she became number one there hasn't been much tangible growth in her game, if she is going to stay near the top and hopefully win some slams she needs to keep improving. I'm not convinced that she can do that with Piotr as her coach. The problem Sanchez appears to have run into is that Piotr is still in the picture and ultimately in control. Until Caroline gets rid of him as a coach I think any future coaches/consultants will run into a similar problem and not be able to help Caroline as much as they would without Piotr looking over their shoulder.

Right now her biggest problem is mental. She needs to find a way to take control of key points during matches rather than reverting to being passive and hoping for errors from her opponent. Maybe a new coach will not be able to help with that but we have seen over the last six-eight months that under Piotr she isn't getting any stronger mentally. A change in coach can not make things much worse than they currently are and could make things much better.

If she does very well in February/March and has deep runs (winning at least one title) I will gladly eat my words. If that doesn't happen I think it will be clear that there is a problem that needs to be addressed before she can get back to where she was a year to a year and a half ago.

bruce goose
Feb 6th, 2012, 06:02 PM
In re the 1st paragraph above,I'm surprised that your pessimism didn't smack you in the face;the odds on Caro's making a clean coaching break,as you described it,seem pretty remote at this point

Jimmie48
Feb 6th, 2012, 06:58 PM
I think that Caroline needs to take control of her future and forget about Piotr (as a coach). Maybe I am wrong but it appears that she has grown as a player as much as she can with him as her coach. Since she became number one there hasn't been much tangible growth in her game, if she is going to stay near the top and hopefully win some slams she needs to keep improving. I'm not convinced that she can do that with Piotr as her coach. The problem Sanchez appears to have run into is that Piotr is still in the picture and ultimately in control. Until Caroline gets rid of him as a coach I think any future coaches/consultants will run into a similar problem and not be able to help Caroline as much as they would without Piotr looking over their shoulder.

Right now her biggest problem is mental. She needs to find a way to take control of key points during matches rather than reverting to being passive and hoping for errors from her opponent. Maybe a new coach will not be able to help with that but we have seen over the last six-eight months that under Piotr she isn't getting any stronger mentally. A change in coach can not make things much worse than they currently are and could make things much better.



100% agree.

Chrissie-fan
Feb 6th, 2012, 07:42 PM
I don't get any of this. Didn't these people talk with each other before they decided to work together?

TennisFan66
Feb 6th, 2012, 09:05 PM
I think that Caroline needs to take control of her future and forget about Piotr (as a coach).

Right now her biggest problem is mental.

If she does very well in February/March and has deep runs (winning at least one title) I will gladly eat my words. .

Disagree

Agree

A good performance from Dubai through Miami would be nice indeed.

DownInAHole
Feb 6th, 2012, 09:13 PM
I don't get any of this. Didn't these people talk with each other before they decided to work together?

All we can do is engage in wild speculation (which I am happy to do).:lol:

Whatever problems/differences there were in the beginning probably appeared to be small but as time went on and Caroline started to play actual matches those problems/differences likely became much bigger and impossible to overcome.

Many people, myself included, are placing the blame on Piotr's shoulders but there are only a very small number of people (Caroline and Ricardo and almost certainly Piotr) who know the truth. Maybe Caroline was unhappy with Ricardo and overruled Piotr? We will probably never know what happened but from the outside looking in things appear to be a bit chaotic. Hopefully things will stabilise and Caroline can focus on her tennis.

bruce goose
Feb 7th, 2012, 05:19 AM
Heard a rumor that Rory won some sort of Laureus Award(they're an irrelevant,non-entity for North American sports fans),so I suppose that there's happy news SOMEwhere in the Caro camp:)

marineblue
Feb 7th, 2012, 05:54 PM
All we can do is engage in wild speculation (which I am happy to do).:lol:

Whatever problems/differences there were in the beginning probably appeared to be small but as time went on and Caroline started to play actual matches those problems/differences likely became much bigger and impossible to overcome.

Many people, myself included, are placing the blame on Piotr's shoulders but there are only a very small number of people (Caroline and Ricardo and almost certainly Piotr) who know the truth. Maybe Caroline was unhappy with Ricardo and overruled Piotr? We will probably never know what happened but from the outside looking in things appear to be a bit chaotic. Hopefully things will stabilise and Caroline can focus on her tennis.

I wonder why so few considered the possibility that the fault could be really in Sanchez even though Caro herself said that she felt he brought nothing new to the table.

I am no tennis expert but from a few quotes from him I gained an impression that he came up with the usual ideas her detractors have about her game. In short: you must be more aggressive.
But I think that if you look at Caroline's career it shows the opposite. She achieved her success playing the opposite way based on patience and moving the opponent around the court rather than trying to attack. I think that a style that is natural for her and to change all that now when she's 21 was just a silly idea. Who knows, maybe when she heard him talking she thought 'oh no, that's what I have heard thousand times and now I even have to pay for it:facepalm::sobbing:'

I think she was looking for someone who would help her to develop HER style not to force her play the way that they think is right without considering what suits her. That idea with hitting forehand instead of a backhand or being happy that she injured her wrist since she'd be forced to do forehands summed it up for me. I had a gut feeling that this wouldn't last long.

I think she'll not hire a coach for a long time from now on. Let's see what she and Piotr can do. Maybe this will work out best for them.

Burisleif
Feb 7th, 2012, 07:40 PM
Sanchez is doing irreparable harm to his reputation.

bruce goose
Feb 8th, 2012, 05:13 AM
Don't feel too qualified to assign primary blame here,but this situation between Sanchez and Caro didn't appear to be worked out too clearly,for both sides,in advance.Seems like it was doomed to fail before it ever started

goldenlox
Feb 8th, 2012, 04:38 PM
I'm not a believer that a coach is that important after 18,19 years old.
By 20 a player has her style, and needs someone to help plan a good schedule to keep her healthy. And to help set up practice schedules, hitting partners, and the other daily stuff that tennis players have to deal with.

Far more important is money management. Thats clear from these stories of Arantxa Sanchez Vacario, who claims she's in debt after her parents mismanaged $60 million.

Caro needs to keep an eye on her investments, because a lot of other people know she has money, and you have to have qualified investment people and have accountants check on what you're investment people are doing

Jimmie48
Feb 8th, 2012, 05:00 PM
Yeah I agree, that NY apartment thing sounded kind of worrisome to be honest.

goldenlox
Feb 8th, 2012, 05:43 PM
Its hard to make any real changes to her basic game when she has certain skills she already uses very well.
I'd like to see Caroline improve her serve a little. But I know Dementieva went to Richard Krajicek, among others, trying to improve her serve, and the under the pressure of an important service game, its very hard to improve.

But I still think Caro should talk to someone who studies service mechanics & watched Caroline serve. Maybe some small correction can improve things

Chrissie-fan
Feb 8th, 2012, 06:04 PM
Its hard to make any real changes to her basic game when she has certain skills she already uses very well.
I'd like to see Caroline improve her serve a little. But I know Dementieva went to Richard Krajicek, among others, trying to improve her serve, and the under the pressure of an important service game, its very hard to improve.

But I still think Caro should talk to someone who studies service mechanics & watched Caroline serve. Maybe some small correction can improve things
I think her serve has improved, actually. The first serve anyway. Unfortunately she still struggles with it at pressure moments and the second serve is sometimes like a regular slowish groundstroke that lands short and just sits up there waiting to be hit. Even so, all in all I think the service has improved. I'd like to see her improve her approach shots most of all. I agree that she shouldn't abandon her basic game, but she can add things here and there that in some matches might make the difference between winning and losing. Lately she's coming to the net a bit more and I think that's something that might work for her. Some say that she has poor technique on her volleys, but although she'll never be a Navratilova, I don't think the're so bad that she can't be effective in that area. Unfortunately though it seems to me that she sometimes comes in behind weak-ish approach shots while she stays back at more opportune moments. I think that with practice and experience she can improve on that.

TennisFan66
Feb 8th, 2012, 06:26 PM
Appears now Caroline + Rory are signed up by Omega :

http://www.sporten.dk/tennis/caroline-og-rory-kan-passe-tiden

Suppose Rolex must have agreed to this ... :scratch:

backhandsmash
Feb 8th, 2012, 06:30 PM
My bullshit-o-meter just exploded!

Jimmie48
Feb 8th, 2012, 06:34 PM
Weird, I thought Rolex is one of her main sponsors...

goldenlox
Feb 8th, 2012, 06:40 PM
Doesnt sound right. You cant be with both, and if she switched, there would be an announcement about it

Edit: I googled 'Wozniacki, Omega', and its the Omega Dubai Desert Golf Classic. So those signs are at the golf tournament.

backhandsmash
Feb 8th, 2012, 08:44 PM
miffedmax laying down the law in GM:

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=453464

:yeah:

Chrissie-fan
Feb 8th, 2012, 09:01 PM
miffedmax laying down the law in GM:

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=453464

:yeah:
Yep, he's doing well. :) Sad thing is that the poll was set up by a Woz fan. When I first saw the title I thought it came from a 'hater/troll' seeking to ridicule Caroline.

marineblue
Feb 8th, 2012, 10:15 PM
I don't think mistymore is a fan. A Caro fan would not post this kind of thread in General Morons. Also, what the hell is a deal with several Vika trolls who always insult Caroline posting her pictures here? :(

Burisleif
Feb 8th, 2012, 11:00 PM
Yep, he's doing well. :) Sad thing is that the poll was set up by a Woz fan. When I first saw the title I thought it came from a 'hater/troll' seeking to ridicule Caroline.

he is 100% not a Woz fan. Just another agent provocateur with a liking for Petra, a love for a certain retired player, and an obsession with playing on clay courts.

Who could it be I wonder :lol:

Chrissie-fan
Feb 8th, 2012, 11:13 PM
what the hell is a deal with several Vika trolls who always insult Caroline posting her pictures here? :(
:confused:

Chrissie-fan
Feb 9th, 2012, 12:14 AM
miffedmax laying down the law in GM:

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=453464

:yeah:

Yep. Another one....

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=453479

:worship:

goldenlox
Feb 9th, 2012, 12:52 AM
I saw that Henin thread, but no need to get involved. Justine was either 2nd or 3rd best player in the last 15 years.
Caroline can still be one of the best players of the 2008-2023 era, but she has to do better at majors.
She knows that, but once again, in a huge match at the AO, she didnt play well for a big part of the match.

I do think its a little mental. She has to be ready for every match at a major, and never be down 36 25, I dont care who you're playing.
Like the Hantuchova loss, she has to start well.
And like the losses to Li and Domi, she has to serve out sets and serve out matches. You have to hold at 5-4, & have to hold at 3-4, or 4-5 or you're probably losing the set.

There's no magic to it, no secret to it. Players like Sveta, Li, Fran, Stosur.. they arent better than Caroline.
Caroline just hasnt played well enough in week 2 of majors. Still has years in front of her, but the recurring pattern has to be improved

Chrissie-fan
Feb 9th, 2012, 01:18 AM
he is 100% not a Woz fan. Just another agent provocateur with a liking for Petra, a love for a certain retired player, and an obsession with playing on clay courts.

Who could it be I wonder :lol:
Yep - he's a troll. Check out this guy's earlier posts to see how he really feels about Caroline.

Protoss
Feb 9th, 2012, 04:04 AM
I don't get any of this. Didn't these people talk with each other before they decided to work together?
Here's what Sanchez said:

“I was told that I would be free to coach her as I wished, and then I was given very little margin to do so,” Sanchez said. “In just five weeks I went from being a coach to being just a consultant.

“Her father put together his own training system, and I was pushed into the background.”

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/tennis/news;_ylt=ApaTNfA46Zme7LOLurjTrfo4NgU6?slug=ap-wozniacki-formercoach

What I'm wondering about is why the change in Sanchez's freedom to coach. Perhaps it was a lot easier for Piotr to give up control when it was a pretty abstract thing.

Protoss
Feb 9th, 2012, 04:37 AM
I wonder why so few considered the possibility that the fault could be really in Sanchez even though Caro herself said that she felt he brought nothing new to the table.

I am no tennis expert but from a few quotes from him I gained an impression that he came up with the usual ideas her detractors have about her game. In short: you must be more aggressive.
But I think that if you look at Caroline's career it shows the opposite. She achieved her success playing the opposite way based on patience and moving the opponent around the court rather than trying to attack. I think that a style that is natural for her and to change all that now when she's 21 was just a silly idea. Who knows, maybe when she heard him talking she thought 'oh no, that's what I have heard thousand times and now I even have to pay for it:facepalm::sobbing:'

I think she was looking for someone who would help her to develop HER style not to force her play the way that they think is right without considering what suits her. That idea with hitting forehand instead of a backhand or being happy that she injured her wrist since she'd be forced to do forehands summed it up for me. I had a gut feeling that this wouldn't last long.

I think she'll not hire a coach for a long time from now on. Let's see what she and Piotr can do. Maybe this will work out best for them.
Early in her career (through her 1st couple of years on the senior level) she wasn't as defensive. So it shouldn't be a completely foreign way to play.

I don't think Sanchez was actually happy that she was injured. It did present an opportunity to work more on her forehand though. It's sort of like how she was sick in Doha last year and had to play pretty aggressively against Flavia (even more agressively than her typical level of more aggressive play).

Caro started to win the premier 5s/premier mandatories when she got more aggressive and improved her serving. Her forehand was also a solid to good shot. :shrug:

Protoss
Feb 9th, 2012, 04:54 AM
So why is Caro in Dubai? Shouldn't she be in Doha getting used to conditions there? It is her next tournament afterall not Dubai. :shrug:

Burisleif
Feb 9th, 2012, 05:05 AM
So why is Caro in Dubai? Shouldn't she be in Doha getting used to conditions there? It is her next tournament afterall not Dubai. :shrug:

Thats like saying why is she in New York when the tournament is in New Jersey.

bruce goose
Feb 9th, 2012, 05:21 AM
Burisleif is right,Protoss;the United Arab Emirates and Qatar border on each other,so it's not as if Caroline had to travel any huge distance from one to the other

Protoss
Feb 9th, 2012, 05:33 AM
Burisleif is right,Protoss;the United Arab Emirates and Qatar border on each other,so it's not as if Caroline had to travel any huge distance from one to the other
Weather conditions can vary even with moderate distances in between. Also the courts and balls can play differently. I believe that Dubai plays a lot faster than Doha, so I'd rather see Caro get used to things in Doha as that's her next tournament.

Does that make sense?

Burisleif
Feb 9th, 2012, 05:52 AM
Here's what Sanchez said:

“I was told that I would be free to coach her as I wished, and then I was given very little margin to do so,” Sanchez said. “In just five weeks I went from being a coach to being just a consultant.

“Her father put together his own training system, and I was pushed into the background.”

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/tennis/news;_ylt=ApaTNfA46Zme7LOLurjTrfo4NgU6?slug=ap-wozniacki-formercoach

What I'm wondering about is why the change in Sanchez's freedom to coach. Perhaps it was a lot easier for Piotr to give up control when it was a pretty abstract thing.

That's from 2nd Feb, Caro gave her reply in the TV2 article I linked to in AaI Thread Post 1476 dated 2hrs later?

Basically, She states (words to the effect of) that they wanted to see at the start of the season and through the AO if he could bring some impetus and ideas to her game. She goes on to say he didn't, and that she already knew what needs to be improved with her game etc.

You can subjectively surmise many things, but one of those could be that it just wasn't working so there was no point to keeping to his new training methods?

Did her wrist injury occur before the 2nd December hiring or was it perhaps inflicted during a new training system?

Too many questions without answers, and it's likely to stay that way.

She has a new temp assistant / hitting partner now?

It's so 2011 :lol:

Burisleif
Feb 9th, 2012, 06:08 AM
Weather conditions can vary even with moderate distances in between. Also the courts and balls can play differently. I believe that Dubai plays a lot faster than Doha, so I'd rather see Caro get used to things in Doha as that's her next tournament.

Does that make sense?

The Weather is hot coastal desert at both locations (probably more variation with time than location). The wind conditions might be slightly different thats all (agin probably due to weather at the time) however, it's reported 0m/s both locations with similar temps. Caro knows the courts pretty well, and are we sure she hasn't popped across to check out the courts (if they are even different)? I'm not sure if moving between the venues is of enough of a benefit over having a stable base in the region for the duration?

I assume they have it covered...

Protoss
Feb 9th, 2012, 08:25 AM
Hopefully Caro continues to work on her 1-handed volley and slice even though Sanchez isn't her coach anymore.

bruce goose
Feb 9th, 2012, 10:48 AM
Weather conditions can vary even with moderate distances in between. Also the courts and balls can play differently. I believe that Dubai plays a lot faster than Doha, so I'd rather see Caro get used to things in Doha as that's her next tournament.

Does that make sense?No,it sounds more like you just didn't know where they were on the map...and now you're concocting an excuse to hide the fact that you spoke in ignorance.It just so happens that I know an Emirati woman,a dear friend,who has family in Qatar,also.As Burisleif mentioned,the weather differences are usually NOT that significant...so there aren't going to be any serious adjustments for Caroline barring a major climatological fluke

C. W. Fields
Feb 9th, 2012, 11:36 AM
Sharapova and Kvitova aren't playing Doha. According to the tournament website Vika will be playing, but she skipped Fed Cup and some of her fans are talking about her maybe skipping Doha, too. Will Caro be the #1 seed again or #2 seed for the first time since August 2010?

CWTennis
Feb 9th, 2012, 01:14 PM
So why is Caro in Dubai?

:D
http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/5329/carorory.png

TennisFan66
Feb 9th, 2012, 01:21 PM
So why is Caro in Dubai? Shouldn't she be in Doha getting used to conditions there? It is her next tournament afterall not Dubai. :shrug:

According to the article about the joint Caroline, Rory Omega Photo shoot, it took place in Dubai ..

Burisleif
Feb 9th, 2012, 03:52 PM
:D
http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/5329/carorory.png

She is on Holiday with Petra's boyfriend? :D

Novichok
Feb 9th, 2012, 05:42 PM
She is on Holiday with Petra's boyfriend? :D

:lol::lol::lol:

marineblue
Feb 9th, 2012, 08:25 PM
She is on Holiday with Petra's boyfriend? :D

Apparently. He has manned up a lot recently :oh:

bruce goose
Feb 10th, 2012, 12:31 AM
She is on Holiday with Petra's boyfriend? :DThank you:D...and you did it in the Main Thread,too.While your comment wasn't the least bit offensive,you've forfeited the right to bitch and whine when I mention Caro's phony,nymphomaniac Adidas colleague:p.However,a promise is a promise:angel:,so I'll leave any detailed excursions for the off-topic thread:hatoff:

CWTennis
Feb 10th, 2012, 07:08 AM
https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/1231655927/22a5b0aa4b2e_normal.jpg CaroWozniacki (https://twitter.com/#!/CaroWozniacki)
Good practice this morning! On my way to watch @McIlroyRory (https://twitter.com/#!/McIlroyRory) kick some butt on the back 9:) #cheerleader
44 min ago

Caro ( and Piotr :D)cheering for Rory
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/5017/carocheer.png

PushWoz
Feb 10th, 2012, 09:56 AM
Why is Caro with Rory? :bigcry:

Jimmie48
Feb 10th, 2012, 11:54 AM
Why is Caro with Rory? :bigcry:

Scientists will need the next 250 years to figure this out :)

PushWoz
Feb 10th, 2012, 12:14 PM
Scientists will need the next 250 years to figure this out :)

:sad:

Chrissie-fan
Feb 10th, 2012, 12:56 PM
Why is Caro with Rory? :bigcry:
Let me think bout that one for a minute.....:scratch:.....because she loves him, maybe? :shrug:

Jimmie48
Feb 10th, 2012, 01:00 PM
:sad:

Cheer up, luckily he's busy pandering to rich idiots so we won't have to endure him at too many tournaments hopefully :)

Jorn
Feb 10th, 2012, 01:02 PM
Cheering on Rory did help, he now leads with the danish Bjřrn at -13. :)

PushWoz
Feb 10th, 2012, 01:10 PM
Cheer up, luckily he's busy pandering to rich idiots so we won't have to endure him at too many tournaments hopefully :)

:devil: Doha is next week, hope he doesn't follow her. Come on Caro :cheer:

backhandsmash
Feb 10th, 2012, 01:36 PM
Cheering on Rory did help, he now leads with the danish Bjřrn at -13. :)

:woohoo: Maybe one should find a stream tomorrow.

CWTennis
Feb 10th, 2012, 01:37 PM
Why is Caro with Rory? :bigcry:

I don't know! :shrug: ...oh wait, maybe becaue he's a nice successful young man, they have a lot in common, and she's happy with him! :)

:devil: Doha is next week, hope he doesn't follow her. Come on Caro :cheer:
He will follow her :oh: Next week he'll be a cheerleader :cheer:

PushWoz
Feb 10th, 2012, 01:38 PM
I don't know! :shrug: ...oh wait, maybe becaue he's a nice successful young man, they have a lot in common, and she's happy with him! :)


He will follow her :oh: Next week he'll be a cheerleader :cheer:

:happy: Can't wait :oh:

Jimmie48
Feb 10th, 2012, 01:45 PM
He will follow her :oh: Next week he'll be a cheerleader :cheer:

Yeah..that worked so well the last times he was around...not. Uggh....

Jorn
Feb 10th, 2012, 01:49 PM
Yes, He don't play in next week, so he'll be in Doha...

backhandsmash
Feb 10th, 2012, 01:49 PM
Are you saying that she's a good luck charm and he's the opposite? :lol:

PushWoz
Feb 10th, 2012, 01:49 PM
Yeah..that worked so well the last times he was around...not. Uggh....

They got together around Wimbledon right?
Results went downhill from there :sad: Hope she gains confidence again

Jorn
Feb 10th, 2012, 01:51 PM
:woohoo: Maybe one should find a stream tomorrow.
If you can't watch Viasat Golf, it shown on www.viaplay.dk men det er vis ikke sĺ billig der...

Jimmie48
Feb 10th, 2012, 01:52 PM
Are you saying that she's a good luck charm and he's the opposite? :lol:

I'm saying he's nothing but a distraction and her results since she met him are proof of that.

He's obviously able to get something positive out of hit for his career but she isn't. And the fact that this is celebrated in here is really off-putting.... yeah, everybody's having fun seeing that clown on TV watching her getting killed in the QF :rolleyes: :facepalm:

Jimmie48
Feb 10th, 2012, 01:53 PM
They got together around Wimbledon right?
Results went downhill from there :sad: Hope she gains confidence again

They met shortly after Wimbledon at a boxing fight in Hamburg. And ever since then she's been unable to do anything meaningful with her career.

CWTennis
Feb 10th, 2012, 01:57 PM
Yeah..that worked so well the last times he was around...not. Uggh....

Are you saying that she's a good luck charm and he's the opposite? :lol:
She won New Haven :rocker:

PushWoz
Feb 10th, 2012, 01:57 PM
They met shortly after Wimbledon at a boxing fight in Hamburg. And ever since then she's been unable to do anything meaningful with her career.

Hope this isn't another case of Nicole Vaidisova :crying2: She will win something big soon... I'm guessing Miami =]

Jimmie48
Feb 10th, 2012, 02:00 PM
She won New Haven :rocker:

Yeah... I'm sure Vika & Petra are jealous.

This is what's so incredibly frustrating about all this. While other players in her age group pass her left and right she's standing on the sidelines wasting her window of opportunity with this kind of bullshit.

TennisFan66
Feb 10th, 2012, 02:12 PM
Yeah... I'm sure Vika & Petra are jealous.

This is what's so incredibly frustrating about all this. While other players in her age group pass her left and right she's standing on the sidelines wasting her window of opportunity with this kind of bullshit.

Jimmie, in the kindest of meanings, but you need to take a chill pill.

If Caroline likes Rory, it won't change that you don't. You're just wasting your energy venting about it.

If Caroline's career doesn't get back on track in the manner it was pre-Rory, there really isn't anything, we can do about that either. If she'll stop playing tennis at all, it's also her decision.

Venting may feel therapeutic for you, but after three, four, five such outbursts, maybe it's not so constructive reading for the rest of us?

backhandsmash
Feb 10th, 2012, 02:13 PM
If you can't watch Viasat Golf, it shown on www.viaplay.dk men det er vis ikke sĺ billig der...

Don't like ViaSatan that much. They are everything that's wrong with tv in this country. I think I'm just gonna cheat and find an illegal stream. I've paid enough to those greedy bastards already.

PushWoz
Feb 10th, 2012, 02:24 PM
Its frustrating watching her lose these matches :crying2:

Jimmie48
Feb 10th, 2012, 02:28 PM
Jimmie, in the kindest of meanings, but you need to take a chill pill.

If Caroline likes Rory, it won't change that you don't. You're just wasting your energy venting about it.

If Caroline's career doesn't get back on track in the manner it was pre-Rory, there really isn't anything, we can do about that either. If she'll stop playing tennis at all, it's also her decision.

Venting may feel therapeutic for you, but after three, four, five such outbursts, maybe it's not so constructive reading for the rest of us?

I just don't see how you can just sit there and even celebrate it, sorry. It's frustrating to see people you care about make mistakes - How can you not be upset about this? I seriously don't understand.

Jorn
Feb 10th, 2012, 02:32 PM
On EurosportDK facebook, we can ask former coach M. Mortensen a question, one asked "Caro should stop care about her Ranking the next 4 months, and so come back stronger?" Should she get a new coach and who will be good? was asked.

I can ask the same here? Or will she just stay with her dad and the adidas team will be better?

Chrissie-fan
Feb 10th, 2012, 03:49 PM
I just don't see how you can just sit there and even celebrate it, sorry. It's frustrating to see people you care about make mistakes - How can you not be upset about this? I seriously don't understand.
But how can you be sure that it's a mistake? His results in golf haven't suffered because of the relationship, so how can you be sure that hers have suffered because of it?

Jimmie48
Feb 10th, 2012, 03:57 PM
But how can you be sure that it's a mistake? His results in golf haven't suffered because of the relationship, so how can you be sure that hers have suffered because of it?

Because it's obvious, isn't it? You can pin-point the day her 2011 turned to shits to the day she met him. Can you honestly believe that's coincidence?

People deal with distractions in a different way, he just seems to be able to zone it out better. Women tend to be more emotional about this kind of stuff so I can very well see how this is a bigger distraction for her than it is for him.

Chrissie-fan
Feb 10th, 2012, 04:06 PM
Because it's obvious, isn't it? You can pin-point the day her 2011 turned to shits to the day she met him. Can you honestly believe that's coincidence?

People deal with distractions in a different way, he just seems to be able to zone it out better. Women tend to be more emotional about this kind of stuff so I can very well see how this is a bigger distraction for her than it is for him.
Well, even if you're right, she then would have had the same problem if she was in a relationship with someone else.

Jimmie48
Feb 10th, 2012, 04:29 PM
True, that's why the whole relationship thing shouldn't be high on her priorities list for the few years she has in her career. In 6-7 years she can spend all her days chasing guys and nobody will mind. I bet it's more fun with a few slam trophies at home...

And I don't think it's asking too much, it seems to be what the other girls do. None of the other top players seem to be that focused on their love live than Caro is right now...again, I refuse to believe that that's a coincidence.

Burisleif
Feb 10th, 2012, 04:35 PM
Because it's obvious, isn't it? You can pin-point the day her 2011 turned to shits to the day she met him. Can you honestly believe that's coincidence?

People deal with distractions in a different way, he just seems to be able to zone it out better. Women tend to be more emotional about this kind of stuff so I can very well see how this is a bigger distraction for her than it is for him.

We have discussed this to a conclusion before, as well you know, and true or false, it's not valid commentary, especially the offensive outbursts.

Don't take this personally, because the same would apply to anyone of a similar mind set, but frankly, I think you need to take a long think about a break from the sport if your unable to accept the situation and embrace it, because it sounds increasingly like you're overstepping the bounds of reasonable attachment when you start to believe that you have any right what so ever to publicly scrutinise and criticise her private relationships and choices in a public forum. This is especially true when nothing points to the fact that he is anything but supportive and caring towards her. You are at best an uninvited observer of what is her career, her choice and her life. Further, your posting reflects upon the rest of her fans here, and that is not something that is acceptable.

In short please refrain from commentary about Rory and Caroline's personal life choices (both in this section and GM). If you are unable to understand why it's not acceptable behaviour then perhaps consider seeking professional advice with the issue.

Jimmie48
Feb 10th, 2012, 04:38 PM
In short please refrain from commentary about Rory and Caroline's personal life choices (both in this section and GM).

Err...no, sorry. I said it before, my opinion is as valid as yours or anybody else's.

The idea that I somehow don't have the right talking about this is ridiculous as well. We discuss her coaching in here all the time even though we're "uninvited observers" as you call it... people discuss politics/economics etc. while being "uninvited observers".... I know you want to numb out any kind of criticism in here (the same applies to discussions about Piotr) but it doesn't fly with me. You don't have the right to censor other users.. sorry.

Burisleif
Feb 10th, 2012, 04:59 PM
Err...no, sorry. I said it before, my opinion is as valid as yours or anybody else's.

The idea that I somehow don't have the right talking about this is ridiculous as well. We discuss her coaching in here all the time even though we're "uninvited observers" as you call it... people discuss politics/economics etc. while being "uninvited observers".... I know you want to numb out any kind of criticism in here (the same applies to discussions about Piotr) but it doesn't fly with me. You don't have the right to censor other users.. sorry.

Numbing out criticism has nothing to do with it. This is a tennis thread, not a console Jimmie48 and his issues with Rory thread. You have already revealed the reason behind the animosity toward Rory, and your attempts at what you deem reasoned explanation aren't going to conceal that reality. It's boring, it's irrelevant, and this isn't the thread or place to discuss the issue. Continued derailing of the thread with your ranting about your issues with (don't delude your self that your points are anything but) her life choices. It's insulting to rational posters, fans, and Caroline herself.

I'm not censoring you Jimmie48, I'm asking you to refrain from what is repeated irrational irrelevance and invasion of her privacy and choices. You can choose to ignore me, and I can choose seek enforcement. I don't want to do that, I'd rather you grew up and respected and accepted reality, and if you are not able to do that, then maybe it's time to move on? You made your case a long time ago. Nothing has changed since then, and spewing more venom isn't going to change that.

Jimmie48
Feb 10th, 2012, 05:08 PM
Numbing out criticism has nothing to do with it. This is a tennis thread, not a console Jimmie48 and his issues with Rory thread. You have already revealed the reason behind the animosity toward Rory, and your attempts at what you deem reasoned explanation aren't going to conceal that reality. It's boring, it's irrelevant, and this isn't the thread or place to discuss the issue. Continued derailing of the thread with your ranting about your issues with (don't delude your self that your points are anything but) her life choices. It's insulting to rational posters, fans, and Caroline herself.



The why are we discussing his golf results in here?

My points are very much focused on tennis and the effect this thing has on her career, it's a tennis discussion and a few members obviously were interested in discussing it before you came down in your usual attempt to silence discussions you don't like.

It's the same with discussions about Piotr, you don't like it so you deliberately derail the discussions by claiming that it holds no merit, this isn't the place/time to discuss it etc. How about just staying out of it if you can't stomach anything that gets remotely close to criticizing her choices. You're not just doing that to me either, so I don't feel personally offended. You have to learn and accept that people want to discuss certain things that you consider to be boring or irrelevant.. just stay out of it then.

DownInAHole
Feb 10th, 2012, 05:41 PM
I tend to agree with Jimmie48 that it does appear that since she got together with Rory that her results have suffered but I also think that we need a bigger sample size to draw any firm conclusions. The other side of the argument would be that she wasn't exactly playing great after Indian Wells, before she had even met Rory. I think we should wait until after the next four hardcourt tournaments before condemning him. Maybe she is/was in a slump that would have been unavoidable?

Jimmie48
Feb 10th, 2012, 05:51 PM
I tend to agree with Jimmie48 that it does appear that since she got together with Rory that her results have suffered but I also think that we need a bigger sample size to draw any firm conclusions. The other side of the argument would be that she wasn't exactly playing great after Indian Wells, before she had even met Rory. I think we should wait until after the next four hardcourt tournaments before condemning him. Maybe she is/was in a slump that would have been unavoidable?

Maybe, I still think she was decent until Wimbledon. Aside from the disastrous RG she played a very solid clay season where she looked stable for the most part (losing to Görges on clay isn't anything to be ashamed about and neither is losing to Sharapova in the SF) and her Wimbledon was as good or bad as it was in 2010.

It wasn't until the summer that she started having really terrible results. Two R1 loses in a row during the USO series, can anybody even remember the last time she played this bad before that? It all happened within a few weeks and she never really recovered from it to this very day, some aspects are actually still getting worse (especially everything that's mental-related).

So like I said, I think that her losing focus because of this distraction plays a part in this. It's most likely not the single reason (nothing's ever is in life) but it plays a huge part. It's very hard to judge because she just isn't as good on clay and grass but the only disappointing HC result she had before the summer was losing to Petkovic in Miami. And she didn't play nearly as badly there as she often does these days... something drastically escalated her problems during the summer for her hardcourt performance to take such a big hit and I can only come to the same conclusion every time. The problems that were starting to surface back then would have required more focus and more commitment, not less... it really happened at the worst possible of times from a career point of view.

Burisleif
Feb 10th, 2012, 06:02 PM
I tend to agree with Jimmie48 that it does appear that since she got together with Rory that her results have suffered but I also think that we need a bigger sample size to draw any firm conclusions. The other side of the argument would be that she wasn't exactly playing great after Indian Wells, before she had even met Rory. I think we should wait until after the next four hardcourt tournaments before condemning him. Maybe she is/was in a slump that would have been unavoidable?


Because they simply don't make a good looking couple? And that's certainly not her fault...
Frustrating, she could do so much better.

No, not really. Props to Rory for getting into the picture with all these guys in their uniform...made him look even more like a twerp than usual.

Why can't she date a proper guy who plays a proper sport? :sobbing:

Indeed... they [Frederik Nielsen] would make a proper couple. Go for it girl :lol:

But no, I agree... being a guy I usually don't care about how other dudes looks but even to me it is obvious that he is fugly.

What makes me think this has bugger all to do with tennis distractions? hmm I wonder...

Chrissie-fan
Feb 10th, 2012, 06:03 PM
I tend to agree with Jimmie48 that it does appear that since she got together with Rory that her results have suffered but I also think that we need a bigger sample size to draw any firm conclusions. The other side of the argument would be that she wasn't exactly playing great after Indian Wells, before she had even met Rory. I think we should wait until after the next four hardcourt tournaments before condemning him. Maybe she is/was in a slump that would have been unavoidable?
Well, it's something that can't be proven one way or the other no matter what her results are in her next four hardcourt tournaments. But regardless of whether I agree with it or not, I don't object to people making the argument that her tennis suffers because of this relationship. It's all just speculation, but so is my opinion that it probably has nothing to do with it. Suggestions that they should break up "because he's ugly" I find rather lame though, but I'm sure that others find some of my remarks or opinions rather lame too, so...

backhandsmash
Feb 10th, 2012, 06:05 PM
True, that's why the whole relationship thing shouldn't be high on her priorities list for the few years she has in her career. In 6-7 years she can spend all her days chasing guys and nobody will mind. I bet it's more fun with a few slam trophies at home...

And I don't think it's asking too much, it seems to be what the other girls do. None of the other top players seem to be that focused on their love live than Caro is right now...again, I refuse to believe that that's a coincidence.

I'm sorry, Jimmie, but you are just talking out of your arse right now. Women can't deal with it, but with men, it's no problem?

Burisleif
Feb 10th, 2012, 06:12 PM
Well, it's something that can't be proven one way or the other no matter what her results are in her next four hardcourt tournaments. But regardless of whether I agree with it or not, I don't object to people making the argument that her tennis suffers because of this relationship. It's all just speculation, but so is my opinion that it probably has nothing to do with it. Suggestions that they should break up "because he's ugly" I find rather lame though, but I'm sure that others find some of my remarks or opinions rather lame too, so...

Quite, and failing to address the numerous issues with form, injury, coaching direction, training partners, equipment, failure to reach goals, media pressure, big match pressure etc. etc.

Quite frankly if she wanted to shag every player on tour, or become a nun with the pledge of celibacy, both would bring issues of focus, and even Jimmie48 being in her arms wouldn't solve her tennis game, but perhaps change his objections to the idea of relationships being allowed for Caroline... It would still be none of our business however.

Chrissie-fan
Feb 10th, 2012, 06:13 PM
I'm sorry, Jimmie, but you are just talking out of your arse right now. Women can't deal with it, but with men, it's no problem?
Well, the guys often take their girlfriend or wife on the road with them, so they don't even have to deal with it.

JadeFox
Feb 10th, 2012, 06:28 PM
Dear God what kind of a hot mess discussion did I run into?

Look, I don't think Rory has anything to do with Caro's minislump. I say minislump in that while she hasn't won a huge title in six months, she hasn't been crashing out of the first or second rounds either.

And after watching stupid Patriot fans try to blame their Superbowl loss on Gisele, I'm a bit sore on this subject. And I'm a Patriots fan myself. Rory can't help or hurt Caroline's tennis IMO. She has to solve her issues herself with her team. He can provide emotional support since I don't think he is trying to ruin her career, but that's it. She has to execute whatever gameplan she and her camp comes up with.

Jimmie48
Feb 10th, 2012, 06:47 PM
What makes me think this has bugger all to do with tennis distractions? hmm I wonder...

The negative effect he's having on her career is what puts me off the most. If she would be doing great I wouldn't be giving two shits about this stuff.... but seeing that she wastes so many opportunities for that makes it extra bitter, yes.

It's telling how you still refuse to address any of my points, instead you keep trying to undermine me... not very classy, I have to say. Plus, some of these things are clearly said tongue in cheek so using that to discredit me is...yeah well, not classy like I said.

backhandsmash, no that's not what I said or meant. All I said is that none of the other top players in her age group seem to focus that much on their private life or can you name any of the other top players that do?

DownInAHole
Feb 10th, 2012, 06:59 PM
Well, it's something that can't be proven one way or the other no matter what her results are in her next four hardcourt tournaments. But regardless of whether I agree with it or not, I don't object to people making the argument that her tennis suffers because of this relationship. It's all just speculation, but so is my opinion that it probably has nothing to do with it. Suggestions that they should break up "because he's ugly" I find rather lame though, but I'm sure that others find some of my remarks or opinions rather lame too, so...

Sure, nothing can be proven regardless of what her results in those tournaments are but if Doha/Dubai/Indian Wells/Miami turn out similar to Toronto/Cincinnati/Tokyo/Beijing I will be pushing the panic button and pushing it mighty hard.

I guess I am kind of in the middle. I don't necessarily think that Rory is to blame but something appears to be off. That is why I am anxious to see how she will do in February/March. If she struggles on her best surface things could get really bad when she moves to clay/grass.

JadeFox
Feb 10th, 2012, 07:08 PM
http://tmzu.com/game/blogicons/5a1705978ed6fda51b814b4a689df383.jpg


Jimmie, DIAH, breathe, the both of you! :p

backhandsmash
Feb 10th, 2012, 07:12 PM
backhandsmash, no that's not what I said or meant. All I said is that none of the other top players in her age group seem to focus that much on their private life or can you name any of the other top players that do?

You so want me to say Ivanovic, don't you? :)

Look, I know they haven't exactly been superprivate since news broke, but it must be hard to avoid attention being #1 in tennis and #2 in golf and you are dating. Especially if that #2 is pretty much expected to be the next Tiger Woods or something.

Jimmie48
Feb 10th, 2012, 07:26 PM
I agree, I don't accuse her of looking for attention or anything. Your point actually somewhat adds to mine... the amount of distraction that comes with this simply has to take a hit on her performance.

backhandsmash
Feb 10th, 2012, 08:02 PM
We will see. But it's not like she has not had any distractions before. The whole #1 thing you know.

I feel sometimes it's like she's thinking "I have gone far enough in this tournament, so fuck it", or something. It's like the motivation just evaporates at some point. Because when she's super focused, she's lethal. But that only lasts for a set and a half these days, unfortunately.

DownInAHole
Feb 10th, 2012, 08:51 PM
We will see. But it's not like she has not had any distractions before. The whole #1 thing you know.

I feel sometimes it's like she's thinking "I have gone far enough in this tournament, so fuck it", or something. It's like the motivation just evaporates at some point. Because when she's super focused, she's lethal. But that only lasts for a set and a half these days, unfortunately.

It seems like it has been an extremely long time since we have seen a super focused Caroline. Even in early 2011 when she was winning or making finals at many tournaments her matches were often longer than they should have been, the Indian Wells final being an example. She can still breeze through the early rounds (particularly at the slams) but when she faces a challenge she can look awfully scattered.

backhandsmash
Feb 10th, 2012, 09:09 PM
It's like had she not been afraid of beating Serena and Kim, she would have won one of those matches. Kim in that QF was not gonna win a 3rd set, but Woz, deliberately or not, missed that fact.

Burisleif
Feb 10th, 2012, 09:40 PM
It's like had she not been afraid of beating Serena and Kim, she would have won one of those matches. Kim in that QF was not gonna win a 3rd set, but Woz, deliberately or not, missed that fact.

There are clearly parts of her game that don't function when she gets tight... Either she works on versions that do, or she develops a way of not getting tight... That is pretty much the state of the WTA though? On a positive note, she did show signs of doing just that vs Kim but fell a few points short. Had sets one and two been reversed, or she had just hung in there, who knows what would have happened. No doubt Rory has some tips to share about such situations.

sweetadri06
Feb 10th, 2012, 11:35 PM
I'm not really a fan of Caroline but I do admire her consistency and she's BFF with Ree so i don't like to see her suffer too much.:kiss: Rory isn't the cause of her issues right now; it's probably a combination: loss of concentration, adding new things to her game, changing coaches etc. If anything Rory is probably the one person who is relaxing her and get her mind off tennis for awhile. She's the one who has to do the right things on court, not him. Regaurdless, I think she is going to do great in Doha/Dubai as usual. Just my two cents. :);)

Chrissie-fan
Feb 11th, 2012, 12:42 AM
I'm not really a fan of Caroline but I do admire her consistency and she's BFF with Ree so i don't like to see her suffer too much.:kiss: Rory isn't the cause of her issues right now; it's probably a combination: loss of concentration, adding new things to her game, changing coaches etc. If anything Rory is probably the one person who is relaxing her and get her mind off tennis for awhile. She's the one who has to do the right things on court, not him. Regaurdless, I think she is going to do great in Doha/Dubai as usual. Just my two cents. :);)
I agree with your comment about Rory. I think it's mostly the pressure that's getting to her when things get tight. She's been having quite a few matches where she struggles to close it out recently. That's why I don't think that Rory has anything to do with her, well, you can't call it a slump - but let's just say somewhat disappointing results as of late. I doubt that when she serves at 5-4 she all of a sudden starts to think, "I wonder what Rory is doing right now." She just tightens up when the finishing line is in sight. The coaching thing plus all the "slamless number one" talk is probably a contributing factor as well. It all adds to the pressure she must feel.

bruce goose
Feb 11th, 2012, 01:47 AM
A few years ago,I overreacted when an ex-fave clung to a slimy bf...part of my concern was that I falsely viewed her as a sweet young gal with decent character who'd been mesmerized by a deceitful,much-older man.However,my much BIGGER mistake was my attitude towards the whole situation.Though I personally don't think that Rory bears any significant burden of blame for Caro's current ranking drop--and perhaps he deserves NONE(God only knows)--what dawned on me is that the bf is never the disease itself...he's only a SYMPTOM of the disease.

To wit,if you completely,physically separated an alcoholic from the liquor of his choice by locking him in a room,it would BY NO MEANS render him a healthy person,mentally.The alcohol consumption is merely a crutch for him to deal with his psychological demons;if he couldn't indulge in alcohol,he'd find another crutch to lean on.In that vein,Stepanek--shitbag that he might be--didn't hold a gun to Vaidisova's head and tell her to flush her career down the toilet to become a pathetic,laughable armpiece.That's an extreme example--Caro's NOTHING like that other gal,and we've seen her bf ardently support her on-court endeavors.The principle is the same,though: If a tennis player DOES use a bf/gf as an excuse to neglect a promising career--and I'm NOT saying that Caro is necessarily doing that--then his/her heart just isn't fully committed to that career,and he/she doesn't DESERVE to succeed until if/when he/she IS truly committed.If you somehow removed the bf,another distraction would find a niche and take his place.Ultimately,it's up to the individual to be sufficiently focused to maintain a balanced existence

PushWoz
Feb 11th, 2012, 02:57 AM
:sobbing: We need to talk about something else other than Rory

bruce goose
Feb 11th, 2012, 03:21 AM
Well,Caro will solve that issue for everyone when she plays another tourney:lol:....that kind of posting is EXTREMELY common during a lull period;)

marineblue
Feb 11th, 2012, 08:23 AM
I think that having a life outside of a tennis world is very important. If the only purpose in ones life was just to work,work,work it would be a bit sad. Sometimes it's difficult to find a good work-life balance but with a bit of effort you can make it work. They are both professional athletes so they probably know what they're doing. However, I think it's normal that she has ups and downs. She's just a human as the rest of us :lol:

Protoss
Feb 11th, 2012, 03:05 PM
I tend to agree with Jimmie48 that it does appear that since she got together with Rory that her results have suffered but I also think that we need a bigger sample size to draw any firm conclusions. The other side of the argument would be that she wasn't exactly playing great after Indian Wells, before she had even met Rory. I think we should wait until after the next four hardcourt tournaments before condemning him. Maybe she is/was in a slump that would have been unavoidable?
Her play was a lot better post Indian Wells last year and before Bastad than after though. :shrug: I thought the results were good overall.

Before last year's summer hard court season, Caro hadn't gone more than 2 big (premier 5 or greater) hard court tournaments without reaching the semis since she reached her 1st big hard court final (2009 US Open). She's currently at 4 big hard court tournaments without a semi going into Doha. Prior to last fall's hard court season, Caro hadn't gone more than 5 hard court tournaments without making a semi since she made her first hard court final (2008 Stockholm). She's currently at 5 hard court tournaments without a semi going into Doha.

All of the top 10 besides Caro have reached a final after the US Open and all of the top 11 besides Caro have reached a semi.

I want to see at least 2 quarters and a semi in the next 4 hard court tournaments barring special cirumstances. If Caro doesn't at least come close to that, then I think she has a big problem. :shrug:

Chrissie-fan
Feb 11th, 2012, 03:40 PM
I want to see at least 2 quarters and a semi in the next 4 hard court tournaments barring special cirumstances. If Caro doesn't at least come close to that, then I think she has a big problem. :shrug:
I agree.

JadeFox
Feb 11th, 2012, 07:08 PM
According to her Twitter she is in Doha now. And it's windy apparently. :o

CloudAtlas
Feb 11th, 2012, 09:45 PM
Her play was a lot better post Indian Wells last year and before Bastad than after though. :shrug: I thought the results were good overall.

Before last year's summer hard court season, Caro hadn't gone more than 2 big (premier 5 or greater) hard court tournaments without reaching the semis since she reached her 1st big hard court final (2009 US Open). She's currently at 4 big hard court tournaments without a semi going into Doha. Prior to last fall's hard court season, Caro hadn't gone more than 5 hard court tournaments without making a semi since she made her first hard court final (2008 Stockholm). She's currently at 5 hard court tournaments without a semi going into Doha.

All of the top 10 besides Caro have reached a final after the US Open and all of the top 11 besides Caro have reached a semi.

I want to see at least 2 quarters and a semi in the next 4 hard court tournaments barring special cirumstances. If Caro doesn't at least come close to that, then I think she has a big problem. :shrug:


So far I'm positive about her start to the year, it's not as though she simply got outplayed by Aga and at the AO she just came up against an opponent playing incredibly well. I know people say Azarenka was able to deal with Clijsters and Caro wasn't and therefore this shows some inherent deficiency in her game but Azarenka excels on Plexicushion whereas the slow speed and high bouncing balls certainly disadvantage Woz as her ability to hit through the court is even more hampered. I personally feel that her level of play was higher this year than at the start of last year, and instead she just faced tougher opposition this year compared to Sevastova and Schiavone.

I do agree though with your expectations , I'd be disappointed if she doesn't get to at least one final seeing as though compared to the rest of the top 4 , these hard courts seem to have been where Caroline has achieved some of her best results. In fact I'd be disappointed if she doesn't win at least one but we haven't seen her play enough for me to come to a full judgement as to what decent results would be for her at this stage.

goldenlox
Feb 11th, 2012, 09:54 PM
She's dropped off since Brussels. Now she cant get back to #1 for a long while.
But with 2 Premier 5's then 2 mandatories, all outdoor hardcourt, Caroline has a chance to get into the 2012 race.
Thats the best she can do, stay close to the top the next few months.
If she loses early at these premiers, she'll drop from #4.
If she wins Doha she moves up to #2 in the 2012 race, so a good run these next few months will set her up for a big 2nd half.

PushWoz
Feb 12th, 2012, 12:37 AM
5)Marion Bartoli (FRA) v BYE
Klara Zakopalova (CZE) v Anabel Medina Garrigues (ESP)
Tsvetana Pironkova (BUL) v Polona Hercog (SLO)
Angelique Kerber (GER) v (9)Sabine Lisicki (GER)

(14)Svetlana Kuznetsova (RUS) v Maria Jose Martinez Sanchez (ESP)
Jie Zheng (CHN) v Maria Kirilenko (RUS)
Lucie Safarova (CZE) v Q
(2)Caroline Wozniacki (DEN) v BYE

I'm confident she will reach the QF with this draw. We'll see soon :D

Jimmie48
Feb 12th, 2012, 12:40 AM
Yeah, that's a pretty favorable draw. Caro in normal form beats all of these players quite easily... but you never know these days...

terjw
Feb 12th, 2012, 02:44 AM
I just don't see how you can just sit there and even celebrate it, sorry. It's frustrating to see people you care about make mistakes - How can you not be upset about this? I seriously don't understand.

You have to accept reality or you'll go mad. You have a theory which cannot be proven. Some agree. Most don't. I believe that the turning point was after Indian Wells - the last big tournament she won. And that was well before she met Rory.

And no-one here really posts threads celebrating them being together as you claim. We're mainly on Caro's tennis in this thread until this pointless arguing the last two pages. I'm not changing your mind. You aren't changing mine. Can we just not all agree that we are all Caro's supporters but respect we have different opinions on this.

And I don't think it's asking too much, it seems to be what the other girls do. None of the other top players seem to be that focused on their love live than Caro is right now...again, I refuse to believe that that's a coincidence.

I'm sorry but that is asking way too much and it's ridiculous if you think you aren't asking too much. That she dumps the person she loves for you?

The thing is. We can talk about what she needs to work on tennis-wise to improve her game. Her schedulle. But wailing about Rory. It isn't going to happen that she dumps him because she hasn't had good results when she's been with him. They are in love. So after a while - wailing about it serves no purpose and just annoys other posters.

bruce goose
Feb 12th, 2012, 03:12 AM
Have to admit,it looks a little odd to see Caro's name in a draw with the #2 seed marked next to it;however,there's no big stigma attached to being #2 in a decent field...and none of us will care what Caro's seeding was if she wins the event:cool:

kestrel01
Feb 12th, 2012, 08:23 AM
Caro apparently still working with Maciej Domka.
http://www.qatartennis.org/files/photo_albums/67/images/preview/OMR_8982.JPG
Arrival in Doha.

TennisFan66
Feb 12th, 2012, 11:20 AM
Have to admit,it looks a little odd to see Caro's name in a draw with the #2 seed

Ha! My thought exactly. I looked at the draw posted and it says 'Bartoli Vs Bye'. .. My initial thought was: 'Weird, so Caroline plays Bartoli in R2' ... :lol:

Ah well, better get use to trolling the draw for her name. It'll probably not be until 2H of the season, before she's back in pole position.

Jorn
Feb 12th, 2012, 05:17 PM
Even Rory did finished in TOP 10 in Dubai, he did not win, after Caro left he did start to play more badly... a Cheerleader there works! ;)

CloudAtlas
Feb 12th, 2012, 05:39 PM
I have to say that it makes me uncomfortable to not see Caroline securely inside the top 8 in the race to YEC, even if she's only played 2 events so far! Here's hoping she cements herself in the top 4/5 over the next couple of weeks so the pressure is off a bit :p

Jorn
Feb 12th, 2012, 05:51 PM
Caroline plays U.Radwanska or Safarova on wednesday.

TennisFan66
Feb 12th, 2012, 06:14 PM
I have to say that it makes me uncomfortable to not see Caroline securely inside the top 8 in the race to YEC, even if she's only played 2 events so far! Here's hoping she cements herself in the top 4/5 over the next couple of weeks so the pressure is off a bit :p

While I agree, YEC must be the top priority going into every season, perhaps we should allow a little more than 2 tournaments before hitting the panic brake ;)

CloudAtlas
Feb 12th, 2012, 07:16 PM
While I agree, YEC must be the top priority going into every season, perhaps we should allow a little more than 2 tournaments before hitting the panic brake ;)


Oh yes , of course , this is just my own psychosis it seems! I'm just comparing it to last year where after the Australian Open she was never out of the top 3 if I recall correctly. Perhaps I should compare it to 2010 where she didn't make the top 8 until Indian Wells and was still first to qualify ;)

bruce goose
Feb 13th, 2012, 05:08 AM
In the worst-case scenario,I'd still expect Caroline to win one of her MM allotments...and then she should have an easy time of it in closing the year with a victory in Sofia:angel:

Burisleif
Feb 13th, 2012, 05:29 AM
^MM's? She can only play two of those a year... As for Sofia, I very much doubt she would ever play there. I'm confused... Is this your last post here before disappearing to the Kitten section permanently, or are you just drunk?

bruce goose
Feb 13th, 2012, 07:37 AM
So much for your empty rhetoric about maintaining civility:lol:---please cite-in clear,non-B.S. terms,if you're capable;)-what was allegedly insulting to Caroline in my previous post.My INTENT was to say that Caro need only win one of those two MMs to qualify for Sofia...given her likely,fairly-high year-end ranking...and that,if she DID somehow miss YEC(which I doubt will occur),then she could end the year on a positive note by winning a half-decent tourney.However,it wouldn't bother me if she refused to play,either...it's her choice,of course

P.S.: Not that it's any of your self-righteous business:p,but I'll share that I quite rarely imbibe alcohol...was dissuaded from doing so by observing wayward males in my family in my youth...good night

DownInAHole
Feb 13th, 2012, 10:27 AM
What would this forum be without Burisleif and Bruce sniping at each other? I pray that I never learn the answer to that question.:lol:

goldenlox
Feb 13th, 2012, 12:17 PM
From August 2010 to June 2011: 19 tournaments, 9 titles, 12 finals, 15 semifinals

The last 8 months: 11 tournaments, 1 title, 1 final 2 semifinals.

These next few months will be interesting.
I was surprised that she spent her 1st week at #4 by hanging around with McIlroy.
She got to #1 by hard work, and wont get back unless she still has the same motivation

Protoss
Feb 13th, 2012, 12:39 PM
From August 2010 to June 2011: 19 tournaments, 9 titles, 12 finals, 15 semifinals

The last 8 months: 11 tournaments, 1 title, 1 final 2 semifinals.

These next few months will be interesting.
I was surprised that she spent her 1st week at #4 by hanging around with McIlroy.
She got to #1 by hard work, and wont get back unless she still has the same motivation
I think she may have lost a lot of hunger. She's accomplished most of what you can in singles besides winning a slam. Plus she's made a lot of money along the way. So she may be a bit jaded about the tour then throw in her first serious relationship and tennis may not be so important. She's probably pretty happy in her personal life though. :shrug:

goldenlox
Feb 13th, 2012, 02:08 PM
I think she may have a lot of hunger. She's accomplished most of what you can in singles besides winning a slam.... :shrug: She had 2 good years, but great players accomplish a lot over many years. She should be hungrier than ever. To do better.
Great players who win a major or 2 or get to #1, dont stop there. They want more.
We'll find out as this year goes on.

Burisleif
Feb 13th, 2012, 04:53 PM
What would this forum be without Burisleif and Bruce sniping at each other? I pray that I never learn the answer to that question.:lol:

Just a little light hearted humour... :) It's always good to keep our deep cover agents grounded... :D

CloudAtlas
Feb 13th, 2012, 05:00 PM
Also while we're mentioning MM tournaments , I wonder if Caro will still play 2 this year now that she isn't contracted to play Bastad? Copenhagen is in the first half of the year and I should hope that she doesn't voluntarily play in Bastad as once again it would entail a ridiculous clay-grass-clay-hard shift.

Burisleif
Feb 13th, 2012, 05:06 PM
Also while we're mentioning MM tournaments , I wonder if Caro will still play 2 this year now that she isn't contracted to play Bastad? Copenhagen is in the first half of the year and I should hope that she doesn't voluntarily play in Bastad as once again it would entail a ridiculous clay-grass-clay-hard shift.

I hope she skips Bastad too, and I don't have any definite info on the subject, other than I recall it being reported that last year was the last of a 3 year commitment.

CloudAtlas
Feb 13th, 2012, 07:09 PM
I hope she skips Bastad too, and I don't have any definite info on the subject, other than I recall it being reported that last year was the last of a 3 year commitment.


She didn't seem all too keen on playing there last year , and I'm just wondering whether she will replace it with a different event? Perhaps Linz to get some indoors practice before the YEC? Though I don't think they'll shell out all that extra money for two top 10 players considering that Petra will almost certainly play due to her being the defending champion.

postalblowfish
Feb 13th, 2012, 07:56 PM
What would this forum be without Burisleif and Bruce sniping at each other? I pray that I never learn the answer to that question.:lol:

I'm not actually a fan of it, if you want the honest answer.

bruce goose
Feb 14th, 2012, 02:38 AM
Though it's not the ideal approach by any stretch,I think that Caroline is the sort of gal who's mentally strong enough to feel a normal,human ebb in motivation while NOT allowing it to become a major career roadblock.It would be contrary to the character she's shown if she precisely mimicked some of the Tour's dizzy,aimless airheads.Let's not forget that Caroline won a Premier following the start of her relationship...PLUS she chose a bf who has eagerly supported her....Those are two points right there where Caro differs greatly from others

Protoss
Feb 14th, 2012, 03:20 AM
Also while we're mentioning MM tournaments , I wonder if Caro will still play 2 this year now that she isn't contracted to play Bastad? Copenhagen is in the first half of the year and I should hope that she doesn't voluntarily play in Bastad as once again it would entail a ridiculous clay-grass-clay-hard shift.
Going from grass to clay to grass over the course of about a month doesn't seem like a good idea.

Her normal post Wimbledon rest and training block is shortened as is due to the Olympics no need to cut it down even more by adding a tournament in that time frame.

Protoss
Feb 14th, 2012, 03:27 AM
She didn't seem all too keen on playing there last year , and I'm just wondering whether she will replace it with a different event? Perhaps Linz to get some indoors practice before the YEC? Though I don't think they'll shell out all that extra money for two top 10 players considering that Petra will almost certainly play due to her being the defending champion.
There's also Luxembourg, which is the week before the YEC. Caro was a finalist there in 2008.

CloudAtlas
Feb 14th, 2012, 03:34 AM
There's also Luxembourg, which is the week before the YEC. Caro was a finalist there in 2008.


Certainly should be interesting to see what Caro ends up doing , which brings me onto my next slight puzzlement. It's mid February and Caro's schedule still hasn't been updated on her website, though perhaps it's for the best as stressing out over her overplaying this early on in the year can't be healthy ;)

Protoss
Feb 14th, 2012, 03:35 AM
^MM's? She can only play two of those a year... As for Sofia, I very much doubt she would ever play there. I'm confused... Is this your last post here before disappearing to the Kitten section permanently, or are you just drunk?
I'd hope Caro's ego wouldn't be too big to play in Sofia if she qualifies there and not the YEC. :shrug:

Burisleif
Feb 14th, 2012, 03:57 AM
I'd hope Caro's ego wouldn't be too big to play in Sofia if she qualifies there and not the YEC. :shrug:

I don't think it's a question of ego... If she doesn't qualify for the YEC (which is highly unlikely) there would be a lot better things to be getting on with like training etc.

Jimmie48
Feb 14th, 2012, 04:43 AM
Are we seriously discussing the possibility of her not qualifying for the YEC? :(

Geez, if somebody would have told us 12 months ago, who would have believed....?

Burisleif
Feb 14th, 2012, 05:04 AM
Are we seriously discussing the possibility of her not qualifying for the YEC? :(

No, not that I'm aware of.

DownInAHole
Feb 14th, 2012, 07:25 AM
Are we seriously discussing the possibility of her not qualifying for the YEC? :(

Geez, if somebody would have told us 12 months ago, who would have believed....?

OK, I think it is fair to say that I am the resident pessimist but let us look at the situation realistically. If Caroline maintains the level of play she has show post Wimbledon-present there is a very real chance that she will not qualify for the YEC. Her one advantage over the rest of the tour has been her consistency. Well, at least for now, that consistency has vanished. If she is not regularly making quarters/semis/finals at the premier five/mandatory four/slams then what is her path to the YEC? The rest of the top five appear to be making great strides and if Caroline wants to stay with them she is going to need to do the same. If you look at the race rankings it is painfully clear that she is falling behind and she needs to reverse that as soon as possible.

Now, before Burislief's head explodes, let me point out that she has only played two events this year and, provided she stays healthy, she probably has around twenty more to play so she has an awful lot of time to turn things around. There are four biggish hardcourt tournaments coming up and if she does well at most or all of them she should be able to secure her place in the top three. The clay season is a bigger question mark but she did fairly well last year (aside from Roland Garros) and I think she can do even better this year. I also expect that she will do much better this year at Roland Garros and Wimbledon. Anything less than the quarters at both of them I will consider to be a disappointment.

bruce goose
Feb 14th, 2012, 10:24 AM
Going from grass to clay to grass doesn't seem over the course of about a month doesn't seem like a good idea.

Her normal post Wimbledon rest and training block is shortened as is due to the Olympics no need to cut it down even more by adding a tournament in that time frame.You have a redundancy with your double 'doesn't seem',but I agree with you that the schedule you refer to is far from ideal for Caroline

backhandsmash
Feb 14th, 2012, 11:28 AM
You have a redundancy with your double 'doesn't seem',but I agree with you that the schedule you refer to is far from ideal for Caroline

But but redundancy is good, no? :)

bruce goose
Feb 14th, 2012, 01:20 PM
But but redundancy is good, no? :)Well,that's a matter of perspective;on his home planet,Mars,Caro's supposedly most passionate fan uses millions of exclamation points that are considered normal in their punctuation.However,I reckon that Caro herself would find them sort of tiresome to sift through while reading;)

Burisleif
Feb 14th, 2012, 04:02 PM
On planet Earth punctuation is followed by a space.

Burisleif
Feb 14th, 2012, 04:13 PM
OK, I think it is fair to say that I am the resident pessimist but let us look at the situation realistically. If Caroline maintains the level of play she has show post Wimbledon-present there is a very real chance that she will not qualify for the YEC.

Even at that lowered point accumulation rate she would still qualify for the YEC. Realistically it would be a "Bombshell" if she didn't.

The head is fine btw, and thanks for the concern even if the explosion part was a little bit of a pessimistic prognosis. :)

CloudAtlas
Feb 14th, 2012, 04:59 PM
Well so far Woz has got to the last 8 of both tournaments that she's played this year so perhaps this is a good sign for her YEC prospects , but I'd like a win or a final or something soon , can't believe she hasn't been in a final since New Haven :o

Jimmie48
Feb 14th, 2012, 05:46 PM
Well so far Woz has got to the last 8 of both tournaments that she's played this year so perhaps this is a good sign for her YEC prospects , but I'd like a win or a final or something soon , can't believe she hasn't been in a final since New Haven :o

Yep, and almost a full 12 months since the last "proper" final :sad:

DownInAHole
Feb 14th, 2012, 05:46 PM
Even at that lowered point accumulation rate she would still qualify for the YEC. Realistically it would be a "Bombshell" if she didn't.

The head is fine btw, and thanks for the concern even if the explosion part was a little bit of a pessimistic prognosis. :)

If you factor in Serena and Kim the top eight starts looking a bit more crowded. Understandably there are question marks regarding how many tournaments that they will play in 2012 but it is certainly possible that they will both finish 2012 inside the top eight. Then room also needs to be made for the unexpected. It is fairly likely that there will be at least one player that steps up in 2012 and unexpectedly has a great year, maybe more than one.

I'm not saying that Caroline is not going to make the YEC but I think it would be a little foolish to pencil her in at this very early date.

Glad to hear that there were no head related explosions. Those can be tricky to heal from.

Burisleif
Feb 14th, 2012, 06:10 PM
If you factor in Serena and Kim the top eight starts looking a bit more crowded. Understandably there are question marks regarding how many tournaments that they will play in 2012 but it is certainly possible that they will both finish 2012 inside the top eight. Then room also needs to be made for the unexpected. It is fairly likely that there will be at least one player that steps up in 2012 and unexpectedly has a great year, maybe more than one.

I'm not saying that Caroline is not going to make the YEC but I think it would be a little foolish to pencil her in at this very early date.

Glad to hear that there were no head related explosions. Those can be tricky to heal from.

As you mention, it's far to early to speculate, further, it's seriously to early to start being pessimistic about it and discussing it.

Realistically there are four slots that Caro could fill, with the other contenders in far worse shape, and based on past form she makes at least one half season sprint a year.

Perhaps for sanity, save this particular doom discussion until after the USO and then only if she is still 1800 points short? :D

TennisFan66
Feb 14th, 2012, 06:35 PM
Wednesday, Caroline is 2nd match up on CC (of course)...

Edit: 1st match set to start at 3:30PM local, which is 1:30PM CET.

backhandsmash
Feb 14th, 2012, 06:37 PM
Post it in the score thread also, please. ;)

CloudAtlas
Feb 14th, 2012, 09:00 PM
A tough match for Caro tomorrow , particularly if its windy. Safarova defeated Radwanska here last year in similar conditions so Caro has to keep up her guard from the very beginning. She's shown that she's able to handle Safarova's power as she handily defeated her indoors in Copenhagen so let's hope it's a similar story tomorrow. The way I see it is , Caro should not be losing to players like Safarova on hard courts if she wants to remain inside the top 4 :shrug: Hopefully Caro wins in 2.

postalblowfish
Feb 14th, 2012, 09:10 PM
A tough match for Caro tomorrow , particularly if its windy. Safarova defeated Radwanska here last year in similar conditions

Didn't that match have a bad umpiring decision in it? Like, he didn't apply the rules properly?

Burisleif
Feb 14th, 2012, 09:37 PM
Caro loves the windy conditions... It's part of her strength imo, just not as much as Vera loves it... :)

bruce goose
Feb 15th, 2012, 01:15 AM
On planet Earth punctuation is followed by a space.On Planet Earth,Hypocrisy is exemplified by someone who bitches and whines excessively when Jimmie48 has concerns over whether Caro's relationship affects her on-court game...and then clutters Caro's main tennis thread with an utter,prototypical waste-of-space such as post #176

....And you weren't even right when you stated it as an absolute b/c a hyphen doesn't require a space between itself and the surrounding letters.Being overeager with your bitchiness probably caused that innocent oversight,though;)

Burisleif
Feb 15th, 2012, 05:19 AM
On Planet Earth,Hypocrisy is exemplified by someone who bitches and whines excessively when Jimmie48 has concerns over whether Caro's relationship affects her on-court game...and then clutters Caro's main tennis thread with an utter,prototypical waste-of-space such as post #176

....And you weren't even right when you stated it as an absolute b/c a hyphen doesn't require a space between itself and the surrounding letters.Being overeager with your bitchiness probably caused that innocent oversight,though;)

Being that you're the primary cause of most off topic ramblings here, thats quite a contentious opening...

Hypocrisy can be defined by those who insult posters grammar while being grammatically illiterate... As such, it pleases me that you have endeavoured to study the subject following my prompt in post #176, and hopefully you will bring order to your grammar before insulting that of others again?

Regarding the validity of posting endless derogatory remarks and insults toward WTA players about partner choices, and against their chosen partners, please remind us all why you can't post in the Ana Ivanovic section anymore Bruce, and why you don't think that applies here?

Finally a FREE TIP...

Don't forget to read the the BOLD bit at the top of the pages, that way you'll find the right place for droppings. How about where you like hanging out with TF's most notorious Caro hating trolls i.e. in the pre-adolescent toy kitty section?

Sorry I don't have more time to indulge you Bruce, I'm busy planning an avian migration party... A whole goose lost it's way and ended up here thinking it was an ex-fav guano donation facility. Despite management warnings, it continues to harass the local population...

Yes you guessed it, all my points are rhetorical.

I'm bored in the extreme by duplicity and these repeat episodes, as are the other posters here I'm sure, so dare I say-
Moving on...

bruce goose
Feb 15th, 2012, 01:07 PM
Being that you're the primary cause of most off topic ramblings here, thats quite a contentious opening...

Hypocrisy can be defined by those who insult posters grammar while being grammatically illiterateHow IRONIC:p that you put on airs as some sort of intellectual authority and yet you haven't even mastered something as simple as the apostrophe that SHOULD go with the possessive form in the final sentence that's cited above.Don't worry,Burisleif;your vocabulary is at least high enough that you can fool less-intelligent types who can't see through what a blowhard you are...and perhaps someday you really WILL be a member of the intellectual elite if you study harder:hug:

As most will verify,virtually all of my off-topic ramblings are in the appropriate thread;I'm not the colossal hypocrite who PRETENDS to have principles in talking down to Jimmie48 and others(defining precisely which Caro topics we're allowed to mention...and with which words)...and then violates those supposed principles at the slightest whim.The fact that you never admit any fault whatsoever--or offer any apology when you're wrong--badly exposes you as a sad,weak individual who must maintain your pretense to feel good about yourself...but at least you closed on the right note;)

Instead of bitching and venting your hate towards players in this main thread(any successful BB such as Petra)--AFTER you've hypocritically criticized others for allegedly transgressing by merely mentioning other players--why not take your own advice and focus primarily on Caro herSELF...Moving On:p(and off to work)......

Protoss
Feb 15th, 2012, 02:07 PM
Ok draw for Caro. If she plays solid to good tennis she should make it to the quarters or the semis.

Good luck Caro. :)

KleineBiere
Feb 15th, 2012, 04:31 PM
where is the backhand?

R.I.P. Caroline Wozniacki

goldenlox
Feb 15th, 2012, 04:38 PM
This continues a pattern thats gone on for a while now.
This is 12 tournaments since June, with a lot of early round losses & only 1 final, only 2 semis.
She defends most of her points now, so #4 might not be for long.
I dont know what the answer is. She loses a lot of close sets.

Burisleif
Feb 15th, 2012, 04:40 PM
where is the backhand?

R.I.P. Caroline Wozniacki

That's a question I have been asking for a long time... Wrist issues?

I think the RIP is a little premature. :)

Protoss
Feb 15th, 2012, 04:41 PM
Didn't that match have a bad umpiring decision in it? Like, he didn't apply the rules properly?
I believe so. I think Kader was the umpire. Aga led 5-1 in the 1st before losing the 1st set. I forgot at what point Kader screwed up.

Protoss
Feb 15th, 2012, 04:45 PM
Even at that lowered point accumulation rate she would still qualify for the YEC. Realistically it would be a "Bombshell" if she didn't.

The head is fine btw, and thanks for the concern even if the explosion part was a little bit of a pessimistic prognosis. :)
Caro is 9th in points gained from the start of the grass season last year to the end of Paris indoors this year. :shrug:

Jimmie48
Feb 15th, 2012, 04:45 PM
What worries me so much is that we all expected the loss of the ranking to be some sort of wakeup call. Now it's gone and absolutely nothing has happened, I see no reaction at all..

I know it's just been a week but still, we're still going very much in the wrong direction.

CloudAtlas
Feb 15th, 2012, 04:53 PM
What worries me so much is that we all expected the loss of the ranking to be some sort of wakeup call. Now it's gone and absolutely nothing has happened, I see no reaction at all..

I know it's just been a week but still, we're still going very much in the wrong direction.


I'm not concerned with rankings anymore to be honest. Her losses have to do with her game and it's up to her entirely to change that. It would be one thing if she wasn't capable of winning these kind of matches but she's shown us that she can play some good tennis and take control of the match and it's all gone out of the window. That's what is frustrating, she seemingly fixed a lot of the problems in her game in late 2010/early last year and now we're back to square one.

I'm just waiting for her to alter her tactics and go back to how she was during her great run last year. Until then any change in ranking will only be superficial and not be dealing with the root of the problem.

goldenlox
Feb 15th, 2012, 04:55 PM
Forget #1 for now. What matters is 2012 points, & she can afford nothing this week, but losing all these close matches..
Vinci Mchale, Kanepi, Flavia, this one..
A lot of close losses in early rounds. And I'm not even counting Aga loss because she had a bad wrist. Or tiebreak to Kim, because she was down a set.

But a lot of close losses, close sets lost

Burisleif
Feb 15th, 2012, 05:05 PM
What worries me so much is that we all expected the loss of the ranking to be some sort of wakeup call. Now it's gone and absolutely nothing has happened, I see no reaction at all..

I know it's just been a week but still, we're still going very much in the wrong direction.

Well if the ranking has the side effects they say (being the target, and pressure) that's not going to magically change over night. Changes to games take months.

On the other hand, as some here believe, perhaps the ranking isn't the main issue, and never was.

BH, has been on a decline since the stick switch. FH, the same, Mental focus after key points... has always been an issue but more so at times now. Luck... that's just tennis, Injuries or long term issues... who knows?

What strikes me today is Piotr was asking Caro to use less top spin and not get over the ball so much, yet she uses a racquet that is built for extra top spin. To get the kind of depth Caro used to use with extra spin added, where is the power going to come from, and if it comes, what will that do to her control?

I didn't see todays match as being quite as poor as some here say, but the issues are still there and some of the aspects that used to win these matches for her weren't.

Stability and rebuilding the missing parts has to be the way forward?

Burisleif
Feb 15th, 2012, 05:08 PM
Caro is 9th in points gained from the start of the grass season to the end of Paris indoors. :shrug:

Paris? The Far East swing is where the season ends, before the YEC.

CloudAtlas
Feb 15th, 2012, 05:12 PM
Paris? The Far East swing is where the season ends, before the YEC.


I think Protoss means that if only points between the grass season and Paris Indoors were taken into account then Caro would be 9th in the rankings. Normally I'd say that was a positive as it would allow Caro to build upon her ranking later in the year but given today's loss it could be 2011 all over again and there would be no reason as to why it wouldn't be.

Burisleif
Feb 15th, 2012, 05:21 PM
I think Protoss means that if only points between the grass season and Paris Indoors were taken into account then Caro would be 9th in the rankings. Normally I'd say that was a positive as it would allow Caro to build upon her ranking later in the year but given today's loss it could be 2011 all over again and there would be no reason as to why it wouldn't be.

Possibly he does, however, my point that he quoted was in context referring to the regular season, and iirc was explained fully in another post, hence the query of the quote.

cosmoose
Feb 15th, 2012, 05:43 PM
as a non caro fan, let me offer this thought.

its not that Caro's game has fallen dramatically but that other players have figured out her game and how to play against her.
Caro was #1 for 2 years and all her matches are available on video.
With that much exposure, other players and their coaches have had ample time to dissect her game, find weaknesses and develop strategy against her.
This could be one reason why she is struggling to win or even lose against "lesser" players.

Chrissie-fan
Feb 15th, 2012, 05:51 PM
as a non caro fan, let me offer this thought.

its not that Caro's game has fallen dramatically but that other players have figured out her game and how to play against her.
Caro was #1 for 2 years and all her matches are available on video.
With that much exposure, other players and their coaches have had ample time to dissect her game, find weaknesses and develop strategy against her.
This could be one reason why she is struggling to win or even lose against "lesser" players.
That could be part of it, and it probably is. Having said that - one year ago at 5-5 in the third set I'd expected her to win. That's not the case anymore today.

CloudAtlas
Feb 15th, 2012, 05:54 PM
as a non caro fan, let me offer this thought.

its not that Caro's game has fallen dramatically but that other players have figured out her game and how to play against her.
Caro was #1 for 2 years and all her matches are available on video.
With that much exposure, other players and their coaches have had ample time to dissect her game, find weaknesses and develop strategy against her.
This could be one reason why she is struggling to win or even lose against "lesser" players.


Hi , thanks for the input :)

The thing is though , she's losing these matches after having leads and literally all of her unexpected losses over her last few tournaments have been in 3 sets , this in itself is testament to the fact that Caro herself is suffering from mental problems during matches , particularly when leading. It's almost as if the second set walkabout is mandatory for Caro these days.

I can't remember the last time she won the second set easier than the first :shrug:

Burisleif
Feb 15th, 2012, 05:58 PM
Happy memories of the obligatory love three before the wakeup to win in two. :)

Jimmie48
Feb 15th, 2012, 05:59 PM
Happy memories of the obligatory love three before the wakeup to win in two. :)

Yeah, that was when you could trust in her mental strength. Now every dropped game has me worried that it will completely crush her.

Burisleif
Feb 15th, 2012, 06:10 PM
Yeah, that was when you could trust in her mental strength. Now every dropped game has me worried that it will completely crush her.

The sooner the BH returns the better for everyone then... :)

cosmoose
Feb 15th, 2012, 06:20 PM
Hi , thanks for the input :)

The thing is though , she's losing these matches after having leads and literally all of her unexpected losses over her last few tournaments have been in 3 sets , this in itself is testament to the fact that Caro herself is suffering from mental problems during matches , particularly when leading. It's almost as if the second set walkabout is mandatory for Caro these days.

I can't remember the last time she won the second set easier than the first :shrug:

I think more accurate diagnosis of Caro's struggle is that she suffers from lack of confidence.
Confident player wins close matches. Confident player does not falter when leading.
I think the term "mental problems" is too broad. She is not a crazy person!

That being said, I guess its the proverbial chicken or the egg question ;)
Did other players start playing better causing lack of confidence for Caro or
Did Caro's lack of confidence elicit better playing from her opponents.

Protoss
Feb 15th, 2012, 06:27 PM
I think Protoss means that if only points between the grass season and Paris Indoors were taken into account then Caro would be 9th in the rankings. Normally I'd say that was a positive as it would allow Caro to build upon her ranking later in the year but given today's loss it could be 2011 all over again and there would be no reason as to why it wouldn't be.
Yah, that's what I meant.

Burisleif
Feb 15th, 2012, 06:43 PM
I think more accurate diagnosis of Caro's struggle is that she suffers from lack of confidence.
Confident player wins close matches. Confident player does not falter when leading.
I think the term "mental problems" is too broad. She is not a crazy person!

That being said, I guess its the proverbial chicken or the egg question ;)
Did other players start playing better causing lack of confidence for Caro or
Did Caro's lack of confidence elicit better playing from her opponents.

It's a hard one to answer, but if you have to step on court and know you don't have your primary stroke with you... it's hard to go out and be confident for the win. You will be on the back foot from the start. Today we saw some very elementary errors on the BH that would have been put away for winners with a working BH, and today they were at key points to boot. The loss may dent you but knowing why helps a lot.

If you take a 20ft yacht on the North Sea, no amount of confidence in the craft or your skills will compensate for lacking one of your primary sails. The best you can do is lash down and ride any storms on a short rig.

goldenlox
Feb 15th, 2012, 06:44 PM
These are close matches. I dont think its a disaster. She has to close out sets. Everyone plays close sets, finishing them off is what separates winning titles from losing early

DownInAHole
Feb 15th, 2012, 07:46 PM
Huh, this was unexpected. I've said a couple of times that I am going to wait until after Miami to draw any conclusions about where here game is in 2012 but this was certainly not an encouraging sign. Now she will be under even more pressure to do well at her next three tournaments.

goldenlox
Feb 15th, 2012, 08:30 PM
Huh, this was unexpected. I've said a couple of times that I am going to wait until after Miami to draw any conclusions about where here game is in 2012 but this was certainly not an encouraging sign. Now she will be under even more pressure to do well at her next three tournaments.No extra pressure now. The pressure will be at majors. Thats where she has to play her best. If she gets a little less consistent week to week, thats life on the tour.

CloudAtlas
Feb 15th, 2012, 08:50 PM
I guess the ONLY positive we can take from this is that now there's no way she will be as tired come Miami as she was last year. But obviously this is assuming she gets past the early stages at all there. Quite sad how much lower the expectations are this year as compared to last year when anything less than a final was seen as a disappointing result in non-Slams.

Jimmie48
Feb 15th, 2012, 08:52 PM
I remember watching her match against Petkovic in Miami and listening to the commentators go off about how much of an accomplishment it is to stop Caro from reaching the SF.

That was just ten months ago..hard to believe.

Burisleif
Feb 15th, 2012, 09:02 PM
I guess the ONLY positive we can take from this is that now there's no way she will be as tired come Miami as she was last year. But obviously this is assuming she gets past the early stages at all there. Quite sad how much lower the expectations are this year as compared to last year when anything less than a final was seen as a disappointing result in non-Slams.

Disappointing? Doesn't that sound a little bit spoiled? Are we forgetting how few players have ever gone on a run Like Caro's in 2010-2011?

Lot's of positives from the match, balanced by some not so positives, and that one huge question, of whats up with her BH.

Jimmie48
Feb 15th, 2012, 09:04 PM
Lots of positives? Seriously, I admire your positive outlook...

The only remotely positive thing I´ve seen today was that her serve wasn't completely shit. But maybe I´m not looking hard enough :)

CloudAtlas
Feb 15th, 2012, 09:13 PM
Disappointing? Doesn't that sound a little bit spoiled? Are we forgetting how few players have ever gone on a run Like Caro's in 2010-2011?

Lot's of positives from the match, balanced by some not so positives, and that one huge question, of whats up with her BH.


Well she *was* #1 , and on her strongest surface it would certainly have been disappointing if she didn't make the final considering that she could have beaten anyone who played these events last year.

I agree with Jimmie , serve was good and dug her out of several holes but her ground game is probably a third of what it was last year , and that's sad to see.

marineblue
Feb 15th, 2012, 09:15 PM
I'm not concerned with rankings anymore to be honest. Her losses have to do with her game and it's up to her entirely to change that. It would be one thing if she wasn't capable of winning these kind of matches but she's shown us that she can play some good tennis and take control of the match and it's all gone out of the window. That's what is frustrating, she seemingly fixed a lot of the problems in her game in late 2010/early last year and now we're back to square one.

I'm just waiting for her to alter her tactics and go back to how she was during her great run last year. Until then any change in ranking will only be superficial and not be dealing with the root of the problem.

Looking at last year's results I thought that she will not go all the way in this tournament. I am surprised that she's gone so early though. I think she'll need to go back to what she was doing in 2010 when she was at her best. They could have played around with her tactics too much Ricardo Sanchez being the last nail in the coffin, so now they will probably need to scrap it all up and start again. We're in for an interesting year, that's for sure.
I am not worried about this though, Dubai will make more difference. I guess they will save the best for Indian Wells + Miami.

marineblue
Feb 15th, 2012, 09:21 PM
No extra pressure now. The pressure will be at majors. Thats where she has to play her best. If she gets a little less consistent week to week, thats life on the tour.

The pressure is everywhere.:shrug:. I wish she played consistently throughout the season. This is what brought her to the top of tennis world. I have a feeling she won't be great in the first half of the season this year and will play her best in the second half when she can earn a lot of points as last season she lost quite a lot past Wimbledon.

CloudAtlas
Feb 15th, 2012, 09:31 PM
Looking at last year's results I thought that she will not go all the way in this tournament. I am surprised that she's gone so early though. I think she'll need to go back to what she was doing in 2010 when she was at her best. They could have played around with her tactics too much Ricardo Sanchez being the last nail in the coffin, so now they will probably need to scrap it all up and start again. We're in for an interesting year, that's for sure.
I am not worried about this though, Dubai will make more difference. I guess they will save the best for Indian Wells + Miami.


Yup , like I said earlier in the thread , I'm putting today down to Safarova just being too good, as she can be against top players on any given day however seeing Caro blow match points was difficult as a fan. And I'm also sure that if they were to play again next week Caro would be the likely victor but it's simply not enough for her to get revenge on players a week or a month later, as Caroline has so often done. She needs to close these lower ranked players out in straight sets all the time.

goldenlox
Feb 15th, 2012, 09:51 PM
The pressure is everywhere.:shrug:...I dont see it that way. So she loses early at Doha. She might have a decent Dubai then lose early IW, decent Miami...
What matters is when she gets to Paris, Wimbledon twice, USO. She hasnt made a slam final since 2009.
We know she can get on a run in these Premiers, like late 2010 or early 2011.
She needs to be an elite players at majors. She's done everything else

TennisFan66
Feb 15th, 2012, 10:23 PM
I dont see it that way. So she loses early at Doha. She might have a decent Dubai then lose early IW, decent Miami...
What matters is when she gets to Paris, Wimbledon twice, USO. She hasnt made a slam final since 2009.
We know she can get on a run in these Premiers, like late 2010 or early 2011.
She needs to be an elite players at majors. She's done everything else

You are probably right that to the average GM poster and television pundit, majors are all which matters.

Personally though, I like Caroline has put in the hours on the tour. The way I see it, the WTA tour is what builds the foundation for the ITF majors to be so glamorous and well rewarded in regards to money (and points).

Further, for a player like Caroline, she needs matches to build up confidence and play well. She is not a Serena Williams who can come in cold in a major and still perform. Different people.

Why the tour is still very important for Caroline.

It's not working atm. At all and hasn't been for some time. We've talked about this at length today and many times before that. My own personal view is, Caroline needs to go back to basis. Caroline's basis is the best defense on the tour. Right now, her defensive shots land about mid court, near the service line. That's simply not good enough. Defensive shots should be deep and preferably into one of the corners, then it's easier to turn defense into offense.

Back to basis and rebuild from there.

terjw
Feb 15th, 2012, 10:39 PM
No extra pressure now. The pressure will be at majors. Thats where she has to play her best. If she gets a little less consistent week to week, thats life on the tour.

Everyone talks about Caro at the majors. But she's actually been doing better at the majors than the big tournments. This is so disappointing. She was winning all the big tournaments a year ago. Now Toronto, Cinci, Doha - losses in her 1st round. Doesn't get past RR at YEC. Beijing, Tokyo - not much better.

I want my Caro back who used to win.:tears:

CloudAtlas
Feb 15th, 2012, 10:48 PM
After winning three Premier 5's in a row and winning 5 matches in each of them , Caro won only 4 matches in the next five Premier 5's. When put like that it paints a gloomy picture to be honest.

Jimmie48
Feb 15th, 2012, 10:50 PM
Indeed, the only meaningful results she has managed to archive in the past six months have been a slam SF & QF.

What she has lost completely is her consistency at the regular tournaments. That's a much bigger issue right now.

sweetadri06
Feb 15th, 2012, 10:59 PM
Everyone talks about Caro at the majors. But she's actually been doing better at the majors than the big tournments. This is so disappointing. She was winning all the big tournaments a year ago. Now Toronto, Cinci, Doha - losses in her 1st round. Doesn't get past RR at YEC. Beijing, Tokyo - not much better.

I want my Caro back who used to win.:tears:

It's not becuase Caro game is regressing that much why she is not winning titles. Her serve is better in my opinion and she is making many more winners now. I think that the competition is stronger and more consistent. Her peers like Kvitova and Vika have caught up with her and she has to deal with that as well. She can do it too it's just going to get tougher than before. Also she got to the USO SF last year so she was not that bad, she just got beat by the best player Serena Williams, who was playing great during summer as well. So you guys shouldn't be so hard on her. jmo

goldenlox
Feb 15th, 2012, 11:00 PM
Its still early in the year. She had a wrist problem in Sydney.
The loss to Kim was a bad effort until 36 25. To me, thats the loss this year that matters
Yeah, if Caro won today I think she would have beaten Sveta and maybe made the final. She's not far off her form
But she can try again next week, then at IW.
Eventually, as she gets older, her body wont hold up if she wins 7 of nine tournaments. See how many good players are not at this Premier 5. You cant play that many long matches all year

Chrissie-fan
Feb 15th, 2012, 11:50 PM
It's not becuase Caro game is regressing that much why she is not winning titles. Her serve is better in my opinion and she is making many more winners now. I think that the competition is stronger and more consistent. Her peers like Kvitova and Vika have caught up with her and she has to deal with that as well. She can do it too it's just going to get tougher than before. Also she got to the USO SF last year so she was not that bad, she just got beat by the best player Serena Williams, who was playing great during summer as well. So you guys shouldn't be so hard on her. jmo
I think we're basically just worried - that's all. It's not that we're angry with her, but because we care about her we're just worried about where she'll go from here and whether she'll recover. You're right that others from her age group have gotten better and that this makes things harder for her. But she now regularly loses from winning positions and chokes when things get tight. This didn't happen nearly as often in the past as has been the case recently.

GAWOZFAN
Feb 16th, 2012, 12:33 AM
I didn't get to see today's match versus Lucie but I can't say that I'm surprised at the result :sad: And the worst part is that I'm not even upset anymore after these early round losses :mad: It's becoming the norm.

There have been a lot of good points by you guys that I've seen in the last few pages. I think she has been given a lot of advice over these past several months, probably since her losses at the 2011 FO and Wimbeldon. I think that is why she struggled so badly in Toronto and Cincinnati last summer, experimenting these new ideas. She does need to get back to what made her so good from the summer 2010 up thru the clay court season 2011. And her mental toughness/ability to close out matches has to come back. Going back to 2010, if Caro had won the 1st set, the match was pretty much OVER, a win for Caroline. You certainly cannot say that anymore. And Caroline is also not doing herself any good with these early round losses in terms of getting into a rhythm. She has said herself that she needs to play actual matches to get into the tournament. If she keeps losing early in these tournaments, there is no reason to believe the results will get any better during the season, almost like her losses are feeding on themselves. It also doesn't help in the confidence category either.

I think we need to see her win a few matches just to get that mojo back. Things were going reasonably well at the AO, which included 4 wins, until she ran into an opponent (Kim) that she didn't believe she could beat. I also see Jimmie48's theory about Caro not being the same since meeting Rory. Although "we" the fans will never know for sure what the deal is with that and how/if her priorities have changed. And it's also none of our business and not our life. That is all up to Caro and Team Wozniacki, and I hope for her sake she can turn these recent struggles around at some point this season. Screw the #1 ranking right now. Just string together a couple of wins.

PushWoz
Feb 16th, 2012, 04:21 AM
I don't know what to say :facepalm:

Steven.
Feb 16th, 2012, 04:54 AM
I think you guys shouldn't be so hard on yourself. This loss was VERY different to her US Open Series losses, and the Hantuchova and Cibulkova losses. Wozniacki did VERY well to keep up with Lucie in the 2nd and 3rd set because I think quite simply majority of players in the top 10 (Aga, Sam, Bartoli, Bepa, Petkovic, Na) would've been blitzed by her in those two sets winning something like 4-5 games. She was swatting winners all over the place and with VERY little margin too. Lucie's serve was absolutely stunning to watch yesterday and so I think Wozniacki was just unfortunate in having to face Lucie when her game was clicking.

The two things you could fault her in is that she should've played the way she played the third set at the start of the second set and that she needs to start standing on her own two feet and start sorting out her tactics by. her. self.

For all you guys bashing Piotr (don't get me wrong, I absolutely dislike him to the max), if it weren't for him, I think she would've been blitzed in the 3rd. Piotr came up to her and told her to start hitting the ball harder/with less topspin which saw rallies, which were once dominated by Lucie, even up between the two. There was still an aggressor and defender but it was much less apparent after the 3rd on-court coaching which also happened to be when Wozniacki rebounded from a 0-2 deficit. So I say give Piotr a break - he did all he could, the rest is something Wozniacki really needs to look inside and sort out herself.

bruce goose
Feb 16th, 2012, 06:09 AM
The fact that Piotr told Caroline to play with LESS topspin,while she employed a racket specifically designed to USE topspin,speaks to poor tactical awareness on Piotr's part.I can't fault Caro one bit for being wary of breaking with her dad;I put the greater onus on Piotr to do what's right and walk away after he's selected the right coach for Caroline.My guess is that LOTS of good coaches would want to work with Caro as long as they felt they'd have some autonomy: Caro herself is hard-working with a pleasant personality...a coach's dream in certain regards.

The improved serve is an encouraging sign,however,and I can envision how it will help Caroline in big matches once she rights herself a bit:)

marineblue
Feb 16th, 2012, 08:24 AM
[QUOTE=goldenlox;20961834]I dont see it that way. So she loses early at Doha. She might have a decent Dubai then lose early IW, decent Miami...
What matters is when she gets to Paris, Wimbledon twice, USO. She hasnt made a slam final since 2009.
We know she can get on a run in these Premiers, like late 2010 or early 2011.
She needs to be an elite players at majors. She's done everything else[/QUOTE

I definitely dont agree. Majors are only tournaments as well. I wouldn't want to see her winning and having a slump afterwards like say, Li Na or (a lot) worse Ivanovic.
I want to see similar steady performance as she's been doing so far hoping for big wins be a part of that.
Justine 2007 :lick: would be a dream: 10 titles overall (inc 2 slams )
But I don't expect that happening this season, maybe a lot later in her career.

marineblue
Feb 16th, 2012, 08:30 AM
Disappointing? Doesn't that sound a little bit spoiled? Are we forgetting how few players have ever gone on a run Like Caro's in 2010-2011?

Lot's of positives from the match, balanced by some not so positives, and that one huge question, of whats up with her BH.

Well said, Burisleif. I think some people forget too fast about the good results:(

Lachy
Feb 16th, 2012, 09:17 AM
This was a tough loss. I just hope it motivates Caro in a positive way. I was really looking forward to seeing how she would bounce back from losing her number one ranking, feisty, with a point to prove. But she's still young, been through so much already. It's early in the year so, with hard work, she should hopefully be moving upwards soon! :D

goldenlox
Feb 16th, 2012, 11:30 AM
It was a long grueling match. If she won, she would play a ton of tennis this week, then there's another tournament next week.
Then comes 2 mandatories.
There's a reason Serena & Maria skip this.
Its not the end of the world that she doesnt grind her body up this week.

She didnt play poorly. Its more like the losses to Li, Pennetta where she didnt finish it off
And if its true that her serve is improving, then positives will come from this. Especially if this kind of loss gets her very focused in her practices.

Patrick345
Feb 16th, 2012, 11:41 AM
That could be part of it, and it probably is. Having said that - one year ago at 5-5 in the third set I'd expected her to win. That's not the case anymore today.

Well that is part of the other players learning how to play her. 18 months ago, when a player ranked between 10 and 40 in the world lost the first set to Wozniacki they just gave up. Wozniacki had an aura of invincibility. Once players lost a set to Wozniacki they started to ballbash with even higher risk playing right into Wozniacki´s hands. A year ago Wozniacki opponents saw the Chinese Wall, now they see delicious Swiss cheese with a lot of holes. They stick to their gameplans, work points until opportunities present themselves for a high percentage winner or a finish at the net. And it hurts Wozniacki´s (perceived) mental strength that players are able to compose themselves more often than not after bad errors.

I know it´s not going to be a popular opinion here, but I never saw Wozniacki as a player with great mental strength (just normal). When she feels her opponents will beat themselves it lifts her spirits. Her one real (almost irrational) mental strength is that she could/can draw confidence from a single mishit of the opponent. But when she feels she is at the complete mercy of her opponents she shows it. Additionally in her latest matches against Serena/Clijsters she was clearly intimidated by them. She played like she didn´t belong on the same court with them.

As for Piotr. She needs to get away from him, moreso off the court. The relationship with Rory is probably less stressful than standing between Rory and Piotr all the time. You just can see that Piotr doesn´t approve of him and that probably creates a lot of tension.

A new coach would not try to completely change, who Wozniacki is on a tennis court anyway, just tweak everything into a bit more offense in appropriate siutations. Just an example. There is no reason she can´t step around her forehand to punish short balls at the t-line with her backhand like Jankovic in her prime. That´s not even a technical thing. That´s just a tell her to do it thing, over and over again.

Chrissie-fan
Feb 16th, 2012, 11:45 AM
It was a long grueling match. If she won, she would play a ton of tennis this week, then there's another tournament next week.
Then comes 2 mandatories.
There's a reason Serena & Maria skip this.
Its not the end of the world that she doesnt grind her body up this week.

She didnt play poorly. Its more like the losses to Li, Pennetta where she didnt finish it off
And if its true that her serve is improving, then positives will come from this. Especially if this kind of loss gets her very focused in her practices.
Sounds all very reasonable, and of course we have to give credit to Safarova for playing a great match. We didn't do that enough yesterday, but SHE DID play very well. Having said that - one of (if not the) most important reasons for Caroline's recently comparitively disappointing results have been her inability to close out matches, lose commanding leads and go walkabout during the second set - things that have to do with the mental side of the game. Adding another such match and result to her resumé is unlikely to improve her problems in that regard.

TennisFan66
Feb 16th, 2012, 11:46 AM
I simply do not get, why people like Patrick345, who's well know for his/her vile comments against Caroline in GM, now feels the need to also post here.

CWTennis
Feb 16th, 2012, 11:47 AM
wtf with all the trolling from the haters here! :mad:
if I wanted to know their opinion I would go to GM! :o

backhandsmash
Feb 16th, 2012, 11:53 AM
I simply do not get, why people like Patrick345, who's well know for his/her vile comments against Caroline in GM, now feels the need to also post here.

To be honest, Patrick345's post was not trolling at all. I don't know how one could see it as such.

TennisFan66
Feb 16th, 2012, 11:54 AM
To be honest, Patrick345's post was not trolling at all. I don't know how one could see it as such.

You should read some of his other posts in GM. That was what I was referring to.

Chrissie-fan
Feb 16th, 2012, 12:01 PM
To be honest, Patrick345's post was not trolling at all. I don't know how one could see it as such.

It's a reasonably well argued post - no matter if one agrees with it or not. Unfortunately he has (unlike some of the other 'guest posters' yesterday) however a long history of bashing Woz and gloating when things go wrong for her at every opportunity he gets.

DownInAHole
Feb 16th, 2012, 12:16 PM
It's a reasonably well argued post - no matter if one agrees with it or not. Unfortunately he has (unlike some of the other 'guest posters' yesterday) however a long history of bashing Woz and gloating when things go wrong for her at every opportunity he gets.

Others obviously feel very differently but it doesn't bother me in the least if people say nasty things about Caroline in GM and post critical, but respectful, comments about her here. Certainly there was nothing offensive or inappropriate about the post you are referring to. Maybe it is because I do not frequent GM much but I think some people here are a bit thin skinned when it comes to "outsiders" coming here and commenting on Caroline and her game. Sure, if someone comes here and posts hateful things about her it should not be tolerated but is it really a bad thing if they post reasonable critiques? I do not believe so.

Patrick345
Feb 16th, 2012, 12:19 PM
It's a reasonably well argued post - no matter if one agrees with it or not. Unfortunately he has (unlike some of the other 'guest posters' yesterday) however a long history of bashing Woz and gloating when things go wrong for her at every opportunity he gets.

But If I "gloat" it´s just sneaky one liners, that you shouldn´t be taken too seriously. I´m a huge Jankovic/Zvonareva fan and I "troll" them all the time. Need to, to cope with the fact that they suck right now and might be going downhill for the rest of their careers. :hysteric:

If I bother to write more then it´s mostly constructive criticsm, that might be perceived as bashing, because you disagree with my assessment of Wozniacki´s ability (to win a Slam or not). I also give credit, when players change something and succeed. Unfortunately not much has changed in Wozniacki´s game over the last two years. I´m not even sure her 1st serve is better. I couldn´t pinpoint the exact stretch, but she had a time, where the power and placement of that serve were just as good as they are right now. Of course it´s good for her that she has it back. It kept her in the 3rd set yesterday.

Anyway if don´t want me to post here (reaosnably), not a problem. ;) That was most likely my first post here.

TennisFan66
Feb 16th, 2012, 12:25 PM
Others obviously feel very differently but it doesn't bother me in the least if people say nasty things about Caroline in GM and post critical, but respectful, comments about her here. Certainly there was nothing offensive or inappropriate about the post you are referring to. Maybe it is because I do not frequent GM much but I think some people here are a bit thin skinned when it comes to "outsiders" coming here and commenting on Caroline and her game. Sure, if someone comes here and posts hateful things about her it should not be tolerated but is it really a bad thing if they post reasonable critiques? I do not believe so.

I can only say, I disagree with you * 1,000.

When someone is well-known and has a long history of posting nothing but vile cr@p against Caroline in one forum (GM), I personally do not wish to see nor read that posters messages here in the player's forum.

A poster like Patrick345 has imho exactly one purpose of posting here: To stir up s h i t .. and with you defending him, he has achieved just that.

DownInAHole
Feb 16th, 2012, 12:27 PM
But If I "gloat" it´s just sneaky one liners, that you shouldn´t be taken too seriously. I´m a huge Jankovic/Zvonareva fan and I "troll" them all the time. Need to, to cope with the fact that they suck right now and might be going downhill for the rest of their careers. :hysteric:


I'm afraid that Jelena appears to be finished but don't give up on Vera yet. If players like Schiavone, Li and Stosur can win slams late in their careers there is still hope for Vera. It is still not too late for Jelena but I think she needs to start caring again. Too often she looks like she is not the least bit interested in winning.

Chrissie-fan
Feb 16th, 2012, 12:29 PM
Others obviously feel very differently but it doesn't bother me in the least if people say nasty things about Caroline in GM and post critical, but respectful, comments about her here. Certainly there was nothing offensive or inappropriate about the post you are referring to. Maybe it is because I do not frequent GM much but I think some people here are a bit thin skinned when it comes to "outsiders" coming here and commenting on Caroline and her game. Sure, if someone comes here and posts hateful things about her it should not be tolerated but is it really a bad thing if they post reasonable critiques? I do not believe so.
Well, I don't consider myself thin skinned in the least. For me EVERYONE is welcome to post here as long as their intentions are sincere. But I'm sure that you can understand that one has doubts about the intentions of someone who all of a sudden turns on the being reasonable act here while ridiculing Wozniacki has been his favorite pastime at GM for years and continues to be so while we speak.