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View Full Version : True #1 of 1990: Seles or Graf?


hingis-seles
Oct 31st, 2011, 04:46 PM
Now THIS is a year worthy of debate and discussion. :)

Monica Seles

9 titles - Miami, San Antonio, Tampa, Rome, Berlin, Roland Garros, Los Angeles, Oakland, Virginia Slims Championships (YEC).

GS performance

AO - DNP
RG - WON
Wimbledon - QF
US Open - 3rd Round

Head to Head

Berlin final: Seles d Graf 6-4, 6-3
RG final: Seles d Graf 7-6, 6-4

Steffi Graf

10 titles - Australian Open, Tokyo, Amelia Island, Hamburg, Montreal, San Diego, Leipzig, Zurich, Brighton, Worcester.

GS performance

AO - WON
RG - RU
Wimbledon - SF
US Open - RU

Head to Head

Berlin final: Seles d Graf 6-4, 6-3
RG final: Seles d Graf 7-6, 6-4

Mynarco
Oct 31st, 2011, 04:55 PM
Graf.

calico_101
Oct 31st, 2011, 05:15 PM
Graf.

Talula
Oct 31st, 2011, 06:20 PM
I'd have to go with Steffi even though Monica beat her, twice. I wonder what the ranking system today would say? Fo consistency Steffi?

hingis-seles
Oct 31st, 2011, 06:23 PM
It's interesting in that this goes back and forth so much. Monica has the head to head, but Steffi has more titles, but Monica has the YEC and the major, but Steffi has the superior GS performances. Really a very interesting year, in that both played well in patches.

Novichok
Oct 31st, 2011, 06:28 PM
Graf.

Kworb
Oct 31st, 2011, 06:33 PM
Seles.

Whitehead's Boy
Oct 31st, 2011, 06:35 PM
They almost have an equal year (if we're talking about "true no1", obviously the h2h is extremely relevant), so most people are just going to answer who they prefer between the 2, like the Navratilova vs Graf threads and such. So... Useless thread I'm afraid.

Sonf@
Oct 31st, 2011, 06:46 PM
Graf by far

scandic78
Oct 31st, 2011, 06:59 PM
Graf - she was just about clinging on to her superiority in 1990 despite some bad form.

Matt01
Oct 31st, 2011, 07:15 PM
Graf was the "true" (=real) #1 but Seles had the greater year because she won the bigger titles.

Similar to Woz and Kvitty in 2011.

Viennalover
Oct 31st, 2011, 07:39 PM
They almost have an equal year (if we're talking about "true no1", obviously the h2h is extremely relevant), so most people are just going to answer who they prefer between the 2, like the Navratilova vs Graf threads and such. So... Useless thread I'm afraid.

This.
I agree that it ends up voting for which player you like... :wavey:

Lord Choc Ice
Oct 31st, 2011, 07:47 PM
Graf was the "true" (=real) #1 but Seles had the greater year because she won the bigger titles.

Similar to Woz and Kvitty in 2011.

Not really 'cause Steffi won a slam.

I vote Steffi.

spencercarlos
Oct 31st, 2011, 08:21 PM
It's interesting in that this goes back and forth so much. Monica has the head to head, but Steffi has more titles, but Monica has the YEC and the major, but Steffi has the superior GS performances. Really a very interesting year, in that both played well in patches.
And Sabatini swept into that rivary and sanwiched in big events with her Usopen win and her RU at the YEC after beating Graf :worship:

spencercarlos
Oct 31st, 2011, 08:24 PM
Graf was the "true" (=real) #1 but Seles had the greater year because she won the bigger titles.

Similar to Woz and Kvitty in 2011.
Hmm No....Graf won a slam Wozniacki did not.
Graf reached 2 slam finals. Wonziacki did not.
Graf won more tournaments than her rival, Wozniacki did not. :facepalm:

http://www.punjabigraphics.com/images/17/you-fail3.gif

Nice try :hug:

Matt01
Oct 31st, 2011, 08:28 PM
Hmm No....Graf won a slam Wozniacki did not.
Graf reached 2 slam finals. Wonziacki did not.
Graf won more tournaments than her rival, Wozniacki did not. :facepalm:


I said similar not identical. Woz was more consistant than Kvitova in the Slams, won more points and finished the season as #1. This is similar to Graf.


Nice try :hug:


:awww:

spencercarlos
Oct 31st, 2011, 08:42 PM
I said similar not identical. Woz was more consistant than Kvitova in the Slams, won more points and finished the season as #1. This is similar to Graf.





:awww:
That just all about you can say.

Go into the whole explanation and similarities end up there.

Graf was much more of a force in 1990 than Wozniacki in 2011, she reached 3 slam finals that year, she won 1 of those. That just alone puts Wozniacki light years ahead in the "similarity" situation comparisson.

Wozniacki had a pale year, she underperformed in the 5 biggest events, 7 events if you count Miami as the biggest hardcourt event after the YEC and the slams and Rome if you count that as the biggest clay court event after Roland Garros. She made no finals and was soundly beaten in three of those.

Sorry but the situation has no similarities, as much as Kvitova won the YEC + Slam similar to Seles, Wozniacki is a far cry not similar at all with Graf´s performances, especially at the biggest events in tennis.

Novichok
Oct 31st, 2011, 08:44 PM
That just all about you can say.

Go into the whole explanation and similarities end up there.

Graf was much more of a force in 1990 than Wozniacki in 2011, she reached 3 slam finals that year, she won 1 of those. That just alone puts Wozniacki light years ahead in the "similarity" situation comparisson.

Wozniacki had a pale year, she underperformed in the 5 biggest events, 7 events if you count Miami as the biggest hardcourt event after the YEC and the slams and Rome if you count that as the biggest clay court event after Roland Garros. She made no finals and was soundly beaten in three of those.

Sorry but the situation has no similarities, as much as Kvitova won the YEC + Slam similar to Seles, Wozniacki is a far cry not similar at all with Graf´s performances, especially at the biggest events in tennis.

That's all he needed to say to make his argument. A very good argument at that.:p

spencercarlos
Oct 31st, 2011, 08:46 PM
That's all he needed to say to make his argument. A very good argument at that.:p
Rather weak argument?

Wozniacki´s year end number one seems undefendable at this point. Graf´s case had a lot more arguments... The ranking system gave the Woz a big hand..

:wavey:

Matt01
Oct 31st, 2011, 08:49 PM
Wozniacki had a pale year, she underperformed in the 5 biggest events, 7 events if you count Miami as the biggest hardcourt event after the YEC and the slams and Rome if you count that as the biggest clay court event after Roland Garros. She made no finals and was soundly beaten in three of those.



For her standard, Graf had quite a pale year as well and underperformed a lot.
Bt if you call Woz' year "pale", then I don't even want to know how you call the years of all the other players who are behind her in the rankings.
But you probably think that e.g. Kvitova did not "underperform" by losing early in big tournaments like USO, IW, Miami, Cincy, Canada, Dubai, Nassau, etc...

justineheninfan
Oct 31st, 2011, 08:52 PM
Graf IMO. I give the WTA Championships about equal value to a slam runner up. Miami, especialy back in 1990, is less value than a slam final. So already Graf is slight ahead after putting her slam win + 2 slam finals vs Seles's slam win+ WTA Championships + Miami titles. Graf was far and away more consistent, while Seles had a 3rd round loss in a slam, and other bad losses in some events throughout the year. So Graf is definitely my pick.

Some people have questioned Graf's year end #1s in 1987, 1990, and 1994. The only one of those I disagreed with was 1994, which I am baffled by, as Sanchez Vicario clearly deserved for that year. 1987 and 1990 I can see the arguments, but overall I agreed with Graf #1 both those years.

Matt01
Oct 31st, 2011, 08:53 PM
Rather weak argument?

Wozniacki´s year end number one seems undefendable at this point. Graf´s case had a lot more arguments... The ranking system gave the Woz a big hand..

:wavey:


:facepalm: Woz' year doesn't need to be defended. Facts are facts and she finished the season with the most points and with the highest ranking of anyone. No one won more than 6 tournaments, 5 of which Premiers. Just because YOU persanally for whatever reason think that a #1 player has to fulfill some of your criteria...well sorry but your criteria are not really relevant...

justineheninfan
Oct 31st, 2011, 08:55 PM
Graf was the "true" (=real) #1 but Seles had the greater year because she won the bigger titles.

Similar to Woz and Kvitty in 2011.

Not similar. Kvitova had a better overall year than Wozniacki in every way. Wozniacki wasnt even really more consistent (or maybe marginally so only) with a slew of horrible showings through the year, just as Kvitova did, but not compounded with impressive wins either (well maybe one moderate one at Indian Wells, and that is it vs Kvitova who had 3 or 4, and 2 much bigger ones). The polls of Kvitova vs Wozniacki are overwhelmingly in Kvitova's favor for a reason. If a poll were put up for this one it would probably end up even or slightly in Graf's favor.

The term "Premier" title doesnt even mean much anymore, now that even events like New Haven are given "Premier" status.

spencercarlos
Oct 31st, 2011, 08:56 PM
For her standard, Graf had quite a pale year as well and underperformed a lot.
Bt if you call Woz' year "pale", then I don't even want to know how you call the years of all the other players who are behind her in the rankings.
But you probably think that e.g. Kvitova did not "underperform" by losing early in big tournaments like USO, IW, Miami, Cincy, Canada, Dubai, Nassau, etc...
USO, IW, Miami, Cincy, Canada, Dubai, Nassau, etc

I can take the Usopen, Miami, Indian Wells to stretch things... but to count Cincy, Canada, Dubai as Kvitova´s biggest tragedies this year..?

She makes up for that by winning the Wimbledon and the YEC undefeated. :confused:

Wozniacki can´t show up anything at the big events apart from her SF at Australian Open and Usopen... :help: No Matt those are not comparable results.

Graf happened to edge Seles by like 2000 of ranking points (before doing the average stuff), Wozniacki edges Kvitiva by a mere 150 points?.. :tape: another not similar fact.

Matt01
Oct 31st, 2011, 09:01 PM
Graf IMO. I give the WTA Championships about equal value to a slam runner up. Miami, especialy back in 1990, is less value than a slam final. So already Graf is slight ahead after putting her slam win + 2 slam finals vs Seles's slam win+ WTA Championships + Miami titles. Graf was far and away more consistent, while Seles had a 3rd round loss in a slam, and other bad losses in some events throughout the year. So Graf is definitely my pick.


Seles not only won the YEC and Miami but also Rome and Berlin, the two biggest clay events. Graf outside of AO (that had a weak field) won only Canadian Open as a big title.
Seles clearly won the biggest events which makes her the greatest player of 1990.

justineheninfan
Oct 31st, 2011, 09:01 PM
Kvitova also lost in 3 sets at the French Open to eventual Champion Li Na. She probably would have won the title otherwise. Contrast that to Wozniacki losing 4th round of Wimbledon to an undersized baseliner like Cibulkova, exact same points. Getting spanked out of the French Open by a 29 year old way past her prime Hantuchova on her worst surface, almost the same points. Another way the results and rankings are very deceptive to reality, especialy when the final points gap was so small (granted there is no way for even a better ranking points system to possibly reflect these things in points but....)

justineheninfan
Oct 31st, 2011, 09:03 PM
Seles not only won the YEC and Miami but also Rome and Berlin, the two biggest clay events. Graf outside of AO (that had a weak field) won only Canadian Open as a big title.
Seles clearly won the biggest events which makes her the greatest player of 1990.

All I can say is if you are going to claim Seles deserved the year end #1 over Graf in 1990, you had better be admitting Kvitova deserved the year end #1 over Wozniacki in 2011 (which is clear by a far bigger margin along the standards that would favor both Seles and Kvitova) are you are a bigger hypocrite than I already believed you were. :lol:

Rome and the Canadian Open arent that different, the biggest events leading up to the French and U.S Opens. Since when is Berlin the 2nd biggest Clay court event. At one point in the 90s Berlin was not even one of the 3 clay events with tier 1 status (I know it had tier 1 status in 1990) but Hilton Head was bigger around then.

danieln1
Oct 31st, 2011, 09:03 PM
Monica.

Matt01
Oct 31st, 2011, 09:10 PM
All I can say is if you are going to claim Seles deserved the year end #1 over Graf in 1990, you had better be admitting Kvitova deserved the year end #1 over Wozniacki in 2011 (which is clear by a far bigger margin along the standards that would favor both Seles and Kvitova) are you are a bigger hypocrite than I already believed you were. :lol:


Read again. You couldn't be more wrong here.


Rome and the Canadian Open arent that different, the biggest events leading up to the French and U.S Opens. Since when is Berlin the 2nd biggest Clay court event. At one point in the 90s Berlin was not even one of the 3 clay events with tier 1 status.


I see again reading isn't your strong suit. I did not say that Rome was different to Canada. And yes, Berlin was one of the biggest clay events in 1990 (and there Graf lost to Seles in the final :rolleyes:).

justineheninfan
Oct 31st, 2011, 11:10 PM
OK I will put it in simple terms. Graf > or = to Seles in 1990. Kvitova >>>>> Wozniacki in 2011 (everywhere but the computer, as for the dumb consistency argument Kvitova has a higher win % than Wozniacki with the same # of titles).

BTW Graf couldnt even play many of the tier 1s in 1990 due to injury, especialy almost all the early part of the year except Australia. Remember she lost only 1 match in a tier 1 all year (two if you count the WTA Championships I guess), so if she only won 1 of them, that already proves my point. Monica's Miami title was also in a joke field with most of the top players missing. Her final round opponent there was Judith Weisner. If we are going to note Seles missed Australia (unlikely to be relevant much since she was in crap form until Miami), we of course have to note all this as well.

LeRoy.
Oct 31st, 2011, 11:13 PM
Seles was the better player but Graf deserved the #1. Atleast both of them had years deserving of a # 1 player unlike our Kurrent Kween. (excuse me but i am having a very Kardashian filled day)

Helen Lawson
Oct 31st, 2011, 11:15 PM
It's hard to get worked up about 1990, they both had years worthy of ending No. 1.

Sam L
Nov 1st, 2011, 10:00 AM
Graf was the true No. 1. Hard to fault that divisor ranking system.

But Seles was the better player and had a better year. Slam + YEC + LIPC (which back in those days was by far and away the 5th slam).

However, Graf was way more consistent throughout the year. That ranking system rewards consistency. And THAT is consistency, not the joke we have today where quantity = consistency.

BTW, Wozniacki-Kvitova comparisons to this are only apt to the extent that Graf was No. 1 and Seles was better. But Graf was way better than Wozniacki (I mean she reached three finals and won a slam, lol) and Seles way more consistent than Kvitova (she didn't lose in 1st round of slams).

metamorpha
Nov 1st, 2011, 10:50 AM
http://www.punjabigraphics.com/images/17/you-fail3.gif

The guy in that gif... :facepalm: That must be painful failure...

Well, Graf was still the best. She only lost on clay anyway.

winlaw
Nov 1st, 2011, 11:01 AM
Wish I was old enough to watch during this era :sad:

Mightymirza
Nov 1st, 2011, 12:39 PM
steffi ;)

bandabou
Nov 1st, 2011, 02:32 PM
http://www.punjabigraphics.com/images/17/you-fail3.gif

The guy in that gif... :facepalm: That must be painful failure...

Well, Graf was still the best. She only lost on clay anyway.

:lol: Ah that guy, LOSERRR! :lol:

spencercarlos
Nov 1st, 2011, 02:51 PM
http://www.punjabigraphics.com/images/17/you-fail3.gif

The guy in that gif... :facepalm: That must be painful failure...

Well, Graf was still the best. She only lost on clay anyway.
Usopen Hard 1990 Sabatini 6-2 7-6
YEC Carpet 1990 Sabatini 6-4 6-4

:bounce:

faboozadoo15
Nov 1st, 2011, 04:26 PM
I'd rather have Seles's year for all those big titles, but Graf deserved the #1 ranking.

Maybe things would have been different had Seles played the AO, althought I don't see how that would be enough even if she had won it.

At any rate, they both had very good years. By Steffi's standards it wasn't great, but she has high standards.

Igorche
Nov 1st, 2011, 04:32 PM
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