PDA

View Full Version : WTA starts to take action against grunters, Wozniacki agrees.


Andiyan
Oct 27th, 2011, 01:18 PM
Independent.co.uk
Tennis takes action against grunters (but it's too late to silence Sharapova)
Paul Newman
Wednesday, 26 October 2011

Wimbledon has asked the professional game to do something about it, Michael Stich once called it "disgusting, ugly, unsexy", while world No 1 Caroline Wozniacki says it can adversely affect an opponent and that some players do it deliberately. With spectators and television viewers increasingly put off by the grunting and shrieking of several female players, the Women's Tennis Association is seeking to reduce the decibel levels on court.

Stacey Allaster, chairman and chief executive of the body that runs the women's tour, revealed at the season-ending WTA Championships in Istanbul that young players are to be targeted. One of the first moves will be to talk to juniors at Nick Bollettieri's academy in Florida, which has produced some of the game's noisiest players – although Mr Bollettieri insists he and his coaches have never encouraged players to grunt.

Ms Allaster said the WTA had noticed a "slight increase" in fans' complaints about grunting. "On that basis, we should look at it," she said. "The athletes of today have trained their entire lives and prepared to compete the way they do. So [we need] some education with the juniors. We're working with the International Tennis Federation. Our team will go down to Bollettieri's and meet coaches and young players."

Grunting had been "part of our sport for years", Ms Allaster said, but improved technology had made television viewers in particular more aware of it. "There are more microphones out there, there's digital-quality of sound and it is amplified," she said. "Grunting is a normal part of our sport. The guys are grunting as well. But our female DNA transmits it in a different way."

While there are men who grunt – Rafael Nadal is a notable groaner – it is the pitch of the noise made by some of the women that has particularly grated with fans. Victoria Azarenka, the world No 4 from Belarus, lets out high-pitched wails, each of which can last a second and a half, while former Wimbledon champion Maria Sharapova's grunt is more like a shriek or a scream.

Sharapova trained at the Bollettieri academy, as did nine-time grand slam winner Monica Seles, one of the earliest of the modern grunters. Portuguese player Michelle Larcher de Brito, who at 18 is one of the youngest of today's screamers, is also a Bollettieri product.

Grunters usually say the noise comes naturally to them, as part of their action in hitting a shot. But the normally easy-going Wozniacki – who is not a grunter – does not believe that is always the case. "I think there are some players who do it on purpose," the Dane said. "They don't do it in practice, they come in the match and they grunt. I think they could definitely cut it. I don't mind doing a bit of grunting or something if it's natural, or like Rafa grunting because he's putting the effort in."

Wozniacki, who was playing her opening match at the WTA Championships last night against Agnieszka Radwanska, said grunting can give players an advantage. "If you grunt really loudly, your opponent cannot hear the ball, cannot hear how you hit it," she said. "It's a little bit different because you think the grunt is so loud, you think the ball is coming fast and suddenly the ball just goes like this [slowly]."

"Grunting can definitely be a little bit disturbing, especially for the crowd. I've had a lot of people come up to me and say, 'It's not really nice. We always turn the volume off'. That's not what you want to hear."

Making a racquet: The four biggest culprits

Serena Williams

As if the sight of Williams belting the ball was not scary enough for opponents, the former world No 1 can also let out an intimidating howl when under pressure. She once remarked that the noise "didn't affect her at all". Her opponents might feel differently.

Annoyance rating 3/5

Decibels 90

Maria Sharapova

The "Queen of Scream" says she has made the noise ever since she started playing the game. "This question only comes up at Wimbledon," she once said. "I'm not going to change." Her scream is just nine decibels quieter than a lion's roar.

Annoyance rating 3/5

Decibels 101

Victoria Azarenka

Her wail is usually not as loud as Sharapova's scream, it being only as loud as a lawnmower, but it goes on for longer. Her average screams were recorded to last 1.5 seconds, long enough to be still ongoing while her opponent is returning the ball. One observer said the Belarusian sounded like "Mickey Mouse in distress".

Annoyance rating 4/5

Decibels 95

Michelle Larcher de Brito

The Portuguese player's yelps led to an opponent at the 2009 French Open complaining to the umpire. She has also been known to greet her opponents' mistakes with similar shrieks. Her scream is the loudest among the top players, just 11 decibels quieter than a chainsaw.

Annoyance rating 5/5

Decibels 109

Paul Newman

Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/tennis/tennis-takes-action-against-grunters-but-its-too-late-to-silence-sharapova-2376002.html

GoofyDuck
Oct 27th, 2011, 01:22 PM
hehe

marineblue
Oct 27th, 2011, 01:23 PM
Finally something is being done. The word on the street is that today the academies teach players to grunt. I mean some of the screams are obviously not natural. I think grunting is simply cheating. No way it would be impossible to hit the ball well without shrieking all the time.

Novichok
Oct 27th, 2011, 01:25 PM
Serena and Sharapova having the same annoyance rating. :haha::haha:

John.
Oct 27th, 2011, 01:26 PM
Grunting I can handle. It's the screaming/screeching/being chased by a mad axe murder noises that need to be dealt with. Some of them are so false, and I still don't understand how putting effort into hitting a tennis ball causes such a ridiculous noise

Dani12
Oct 27th, 2011, 01:26 PM
This only should have happened a billion million million years ago.

Shinjiro
Oct 27th, 2011, 01:27 PM
"Mickey Mouse in distress." :lol:

Mistress of Evil
Oct 27th, 2011, 01:27 PM
are there gonna take action against KAMAN-ers ?!? :awww:

Jimmie48
Oct 27th, 2011, 01:28 PM
Ie been saying this all along. Grunting while serving is fine (like Caro does, for example), but shrieking and screaming at every single shot is just annoying.

I believe Vika when she says she doesn't do it to irritate her opponent and it's just a habit, still it is kind of unfair and highly annoying for the viewers.

Beat
Oct 27th, 2011, 01:30 PM
good one, allaster :yeah:

ElusiveChanteuse
Oct 27th, 2011, 01:30 PM
Sharapova and Azarenka would be affected much.:oh:

backhandsmash
Oct 27th, 2011, 01:31 PM
Vika has shown she can turn it off. It's rare, but it has happened.

Sammo
Oct 27th, 2011, 01:31 PM
Michael Stich once called it "disgusting, ugly, unsexy"

That's way over the top, especially saying that it is unsexy

Pebbles
Oct 27th, 2011, 01:31 PM
Good. Now they have to do something about the tactical medical time-outs and bathroom breaks.

Super Dave
Oct 27th, 2011, 01:32 PM
Screaming your lungs out when hitting the ball just takes that much more power off the shot. And tennis shouldn't sound like porn.

t1000
Oct 27th, 2011, 01:32 PM
OMG Caroline doesn't grunt or scream. How disgusting! A disgrace, another proof she's not worth the No. 1 spot.

Brena
Oct 27th, 2011, 01:33 PM
Grunting I can handle. It's the screaming/screeching/being chased by a mad axe murder noises that need to be dealt with. Some of them are so false, and I still don't understand how putting effort into hitting a tennis ball causes such a ridiculous noise

This.
Good decision, but I also hope they take action against blatant cheating attempts and that Wozniacki agrees.

Sammo
Oct 27th, 2011, 01:34 PM
Michelle Larcher de Brito

The Portuguese player's yelps led to an opponent at the 2009 French Open complaining to the umpire. She has also been known to greet her opponents' mistakes with similar shrieks. Her scream is the loudest among the top players, just 11 decibels quieter than a chainsaw.

Annoyance rating 5/5


Uhh... she stopped screaming like 2 years ago...

Simugna Help
Oct 27th, 2011, 01:37 PM
Just a remainder - 10dB difference means 10 times as loud.

Wiggly
Oct 27th, 2011, 01:37 PM
When someone like Azarenka says it's natural and she can't stop it, it's bullshit.
Even Djokovic, Nadal, Kirilenko, Sharapova can turn it on/off.

Welcome1
Oct 27th, 2011, 01:38 PM
Nice) Scream louder, Vika!)

Jane Lane
Oct 27th, 2011, 01:38 PM
When someone like Azarenka says it's natural and she can't stop it, it's bullshit.
Even Djokovic, Nadal, Kirilenko, Sharapova can turn it on/off.

Look at Seles. Just saying.

Welcome1
Oct 27th, 2011, 01:38 PM
Sharapova and Azarenka would be affected much.:oh:

You think so?) :rolleyes:

ElusiveChanteuse
Oct 27th, 2011, 01:43 PM
You think so?) :rolleyes:

Yes.:shrug: Well, Sharapova will not grunt in one occassion though, when facing Serena.:devil: because even if she grunts, it doesn't make the outcome any difference, maybe just more drama.:oh:

SoBizarre
Oct 27th, 2011, 01:45 PM
Grunting/shrieking = cheating, really. >>HERE<< (http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0013148)

On the other hand, experts say excessive grunting lowers performance of the player who is performing it, so...

In the end it's more about spectators' comfort, or lack thereof. :)

hdfb
Oct 27th, 2011, 01:50 PM
Are Caro and Vika still friends after this :p

misty1
Oct 27th, 2011, 01:56 PM
leave the grunting alone, honestly it shouldnt even be an issue.

guys grunt to..nadal, murray, youzhny..is that going to be stopped

and dont tell me that murray's wheezing grunt is any easier to listen too

Jimmie48
Oct 27th, 2011, 01:57 PM
leave the grunting alone, honestly it doesnt even bother me. Its stupid to complain about something to trivial

Really? You can enjoy watching a Sharapova vs Vika match at normal volume level and it doesn't bother you? I can't, the neighbors probably think I`m watching porn for two hours straight...

misty1
Oct 27th, 2011, 02:00 PM
Really? You can enjoy watching a Sharapova vs Vika match at normal volume level and it doesn't bother you? I can't, the neighbors probably think I`m watching porn for two hours straight...

no it doesnt

i actually think its hilarious.

my tv runs at a volume of 15 all the time, i dont need to have it that loud to hear it. you certainly dont have to have it on 30 to watch a match.

to be honest what causes me to mute my tv more is the crap spewing out of the commentators mouths

canadia
Oct 27th, 2011, 02:09 PM
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Venus. She grunts more often and louder than Serena IMO. It's quite amusing when she gets into a long rally with Maria.

Vikapower
Oct 27th, 2011, 02:11 PM
I like how Wozniacki grunts like in Rome which are much annoying than any other tour player and she comes to give people lessons.

Jimmie48
Oct 27th, 2011, 02:14 PM
I like how Wozniacki grunts like in Rome which are much annoying than any other tour player and she comes to give people lessons.

What are you talking about? Caro only grunts in very tense matches such as the Kuznetsova match at the USO this year... but it's always grunting, not screaming or shrieking.

Serena_Williams_
Oct 27th, 2011, 02:14 PM
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Venus. She grunts more often and louder than Serena IMO. It's quite amusing when she gets into a long rally with Maria.

This.Serena doesnt even grunt that much

Kipling
Oct 27th, 2011, 02:15 PM
Now that's what I call "fair and balanced" reporting. Finally. I think they named the four biggest culprits accurately, too, although maybe substitute Venus for Serena.

Talula
Oct 27th, 2011, 02:16 PM
Michael Stich once called it "disgusting, ugly, unsexy"

That's way over the top, especially saying that it is unsexy

Agree. Why should it be sexy?!

ElusiveChanteuse
Oct 27th, 2011, 02:17 PM
Serena grunts when she's in desperate moments. :oh: or tensed moments at times, especially when her opponent does so.:oh:

Apoleb
Oct 27th, 2011, 02:18 PM
Caroqueen using her leadership and influence at the top of the WTA. :worship:

Talula
Oct 27th, 2011, 02:18 PM
I like Serena's response!

On a serious note, Sam Smith commented that the juniors are worse and that there is a real problem there. A problem is stopping everyone doing it. If you let one or two players of the hook then you can't say others can't.

As a Monica fan I know that this topic has always been an issue.

MatchpointPRT
Oct 27th, 2011, 02:19 PM
What Azarenka answered should have been the answer of MLDB after that French open against Rezai. She stopped grunting and now she canīt even win matches against top 200 players.
I donīt think the players get so annoyed by the noise as they say. In my opinion what they want is to shut up some players and see if they start playing bad to beat them. Wozniacki donīt have weapons to win matches and now wants to take advantage of this...

Kipling
Oct 27th, 2011, 02:23 PM
When someone like Azarenka says it's natural and she can't stop it, it's bullshit.


Of course it is. The humor in it becomes especially apparent when warm up ends and the match starts. It's as though she flips the shriek switch to 'on'.

t1000
Oct 27th, 2011, 02:25 PM
Wozniacki donīt have weapons to win matches and now wants to take advantage of this...


Seing her still being no. 1 it would seem she has the one weapon to rule them all - The Wall - Only time will show how far she can take it but so far it's working pretty well.

Patrick345
Oct 27th, 2011, 02:26 PM
The only people that care are the media. This is a pure fabrication of these lazy mugs, who canīt be bothered to follow the womenīs product.

misty1
Oct 27th, 2011, 02:27 PM
even if it only happens during games for most players maybe it does affect their play though. i dont know how it would but if a player has gotten so used to grutning that its like second nature and it does affect their level of play you really cant ask them to stop

it obviously doesnt affect the other players that much at all

stromatolite
Oct 27th, 2011, 02:28 PM
Very pleased they're taking a stand on this, but I would prefer if they targeted active players as well as juniors. I realise they can't cut it out overnight, but I can't see why they can't start to phase in new rules within a couple of years. This would give current grunters the time to gradually wean themselves off the habit. As Caro says, they don't do it while practising, so they can learn to play without grunting as well. Seasoned grunters have enjoyed an advantage from their grunting for years (research has clearly shown in can affect their opponents' reaction speed), which should offset any inconvenience they experience from having to work on reducing their decibel levels.

Patrick345
Oct 27th, 2011, 02:30 PM
What Azarenka answered should have been the answer of MLDB after that French open against Rezai. She stopped grunting and now she canīt even win matches against top 200 players.
I donīt think the players get so annoyed by the noise as they say. In my opinion what they want is to shut up some players and see if they start playing bad to beat them. Wozniacki donīt have weapons to win matches and now wants to take advantage of this...

Yeah no Twittering for 40 days I heard, maybe they had some falling out, now that Wozniacki realizes Azarenka is superior to her. There is always an alpha female in these BFF relationships. Lindsay Vonn and Maria Riesch were the ultimate BBFs and the moment Riesch won more gold medals and the overall championships, Vonn broke it off.

misty1
Oct 27th, 2011, 02:32 PM
i say ultimately if the players arent affected by it enough then it should be left alone.

fans have been dealing with it for a while and they can continue to do it..this isnt even the biggest problem in the wta right now

SoBizarre
Oct 27th, 2011, 02:35 PM
(...)but I would prefer if they targeted active players as well as juniors.(...)

EbYxcbpeXZE

stromatolite
Oct 27th, 2011, 02:40 PM
i say ultimately if the players arent affected by it enough then it should be left alone.

fans have been dealing with it for a while and they can continue to do it..this isnt even the biggest problem in the wta right now

It's difficult for players to comment on this because it could be construed as a sign of weakness and encourage the grunters to turn up the grunting even more when playing the players who have admitted they are affected by it. In that respect Caro's gutsy stance is to be admired, and the fact that in the short space of this thread several posters have made disparaging remarks about her in this respect shows that it did take real guts to make them. As for fans, I would say this is certainly one of the biggest sources of annoyance at the womens' game, if not THE biggest source. It's pretty much only the fans of the grunters who are not annoyed by it.

C. Drone
Oct 27th, 2011, 02:43 PM
besides its storm in a cup of tea, why only WTA and WTA players are involved? do media never watch listen mens tennis?

misty1
Oct 27th, 2011, 02:43 PM
It's difficult for players to comment on this because it could be construed as a sign of weakness and encourage the grunters to turn up the grunting even more when playing the players who have admitted they are affected by it. In that respect Caro's gutsy stance is to be admired, and the fact that in the short space of this thread several posters have made disparaging remarks about her in this respect shows that it did take real guts to make them. As for fans, I would say this is certainly one of the biggest sources of annoyance at the womens' game, if not THE biggest source. It's pretty much only the fans of the grunters who are not annoyed by it.

yeah but measures can be taken to help the fans out. there's sound blocking technology that can be purchased inexpensively for both tv broadcasts, radios listeners and in person attendance. in fact i think some places do it for free.

like i said earlier this is almost like a reflex that takes place for them. Its simple to see why it doesnt happen in ;practice:not the same level of intensity/competition. We have cass of players who have tried to stop grunting and it for some reason affected their game so i dont think its fair to ask them to stop

Jane Lane
Oct 27th, 2011, 02:43 PM
Has anyone ever mentioned that the on court microphones for television it what causes most of this? I've never found it an issue when I'm watching live whether it be on Ashe for example or Court 10 at the USO. It sounds the same no matter the size of the court.

misty1
Oct 27th, 2011, 02:45 PM
besides its storm in a cup of tea, why only WTA and WTA players are involved? do media never watch listen mens tennis?

another good point too

there are a ton of men that grunt and its definately not as loud but nadal's grunt or ferrer and murray's wheeze certainly cant be easy to listen too

personally i dont care, i said before i find it funny. but coming from the perspective of people who are bothered by grunting i cant imagine thats any better to hear.

stromatolite
Oct 27th, 2011, 02:50 PM
yeah but measures can be taken to help the fans out. there's sound blocking technology that can be purchased inexpensively for both tv broadcasts, radios listeners and in person attendance. in fact i think some places do it for free.

like i said earlier this is almost like a reflex that takes place for them. Its simple to see why it doesnt happen in ;practice:not the same level of intensity/competition. We have cass of players who have tried to stop grunting and it for some reason affected their game so i dont think its fair to ask them to stop

So it's fair for them to enjoy the advantage of having their grunting affect their opponents' timing, but unfair to ask them to play as noiselessly on court as they do in practice? Btw, the story that it's a reflex they can't do anything about is a fairy tale. Grunting started in earnest only a few decades ago and spead out like a virus, mainly from a few hearths like the Bollitieri academy. Whether Nick himself encouraged it or the players learned it from each other, it is learned behaviour. In addition, doesn't a reflex that suddenly manifests itself only when the scoreboard srarts ticking over strike you as slightly odd?

stromatolite
Oct 27th, 2011, 02:52 PM
another good point too

there are a ton of men that grunt and its definately not as loud but nadal's grunt or ferrer and murray's wheeze certainly cant be easy to listen too

personally i dont care, i said before i find it funny. but coming from the perspective of people who are bothered by grunting i cant imagine thats any better to hear.

You expect the WTA to take a stance on male grunting as well? Of course you can argue it should be banned across the board and I would be all for that, but the WTA can only be expected to fix what is wrong with their own house.

misty1
Oct 27th, 2011, 02:54 PM
So it's fair for them to enjoy the advantage of having their grunting affect their opponents' timing, but unfair to ask them to play as noiselessly on court as they do in practice? Btw, the story that it's a reflex they can't do anything about is a fairy tale. Grunting started in earnest only a few decades ago and spead out like a virus, mainly from a few hearths like the Bollitieri academy. Whether Nick himself encouraged it or the players learned it from each other, it is learned behaviour. In addition, doesn't a reflex that suddenly manifests itself only when the scoreboard srarts ticking over strike you as slightly odd?

if it really affected their opponents all that much then no one would ever beat them

i doubt it does all that much, thats probably just an excuse certain players use to explain why they cant beat them.

and its obiously not a fairytale when you have evidence of that in the past of players who did grunt trying to stop and then having it affect their games

misty1
Oct 27th, 2011, 02:55 PM
You expect the WTA to take a stance on male grunting as well? Of course you can argue it should be banned across the board and I would be all for that, but the WTA can only be expected to fix what is wrong with their own house.

no, i would expect the atp to do something against it obviously

its not fair if the women are expected to stop grunting but the guys get away with it

stromatolite
Oct 27th, 2011, 02:59 PM
if it really affected their opponents all that much then no one would ever beat them

i doubt it does all that much, thats probably just an excuse certain players use to explain why they cant beat them.

and its obiously not a fairytale when you have evidence of that in the past of players who did grunt trying to stop and then having it affect their games

You cannot be serious? Even having the best serve (maybe ever) in women's tennis doesn't guarantee that Serena wins every single match she played, so this is a total non-argument. It gives them an advantage, scientific tests have showed a significant effect on reaction speed. And those tests probably underestimated the true effect, because it didn't look at the cumulative effect on player's concentration of having to put up with that racket over the course of an entire match.

Adrian.
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:01 PM
Who even asks Caro? :oh: she will be irrelevant soon :shrug:

stromatolite
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:02 PM
no, i would expect the atp to do something against it obviously

its not fair if the women are expected to stop grunting but the guys get away with it

You don't stop cleaning up your own house just because your neighbours live in a pigsty. You do what you can. And when I last looked the guys and the girls are competing on separate tours

misty1
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:03 PM
You cannot be serious? Even having the best serve (maybe ever) in women's tennis doesn't guarantee that Serena wins every single match she played, so this is a total non-argument. It gives them an advantage, scientific tests have showed a significant effect on reaction speed. And those tests probably underestimated the true effect, because it didn't look at the cumulative effect on player's concentration of having to put up with that racket over the course of an entire match.

then how do you explain players like serena, li na or kim for example who seem to have no problem at all in handling these players that grunt

it might affect some players but then why wouldnt it affect them all the same way?

and what about those cases of players who tried to stop and then suffered because of it? there's obviously more to it than a simple fairytale as you claimed

Jimmie48
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:03 PM
Who even asks Caro? :oh: she will be irrelevant soon :shrug:

It's so obvious that you can't even convince yourself, yet alone others :lol:

misty1
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:03 PM
You don't stop cleaning up your own house just because your neighbours live in a pigsty. You do what you can. And when I last looked the guys and the girls are competing on separate tours

maybe so, but like i said it wouldnt be fair to ask the ladies to stop and allow the men to keep doing it.

Adrian.
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:04 PM
It's so obvious that you can't even convince yourself, yet alone others :lol:

I don't have to convince others, Kvitova will do that today for me :oh:

John.
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:04 PM
I can't believe people are defending grunting. It's the single worst thing about watching women's tennis.

pov
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:06 PM
It's been the first thing in her pro-life that I consider a big thumbs-down.

http://tennis.com/thespin/thedailyspin/index.aspx
Honestly, was Wednesday's "top" story in women's tennis more about other players' grunting or Caroline Wozniacki's whining?

We need to talk about grunting. Except that, really, nope, we don't. This subject seems a tired trope, fanned by the media. Most players say it hardly affects them. So it's odd when the freshly cemented year-end No. 1 opts to take on grunting as an allegedly timely on-court issue. At the season closing championships. In Istanbul. As if it hasn't been the case all year.

This just in: Victoria Azarenka, Maria Sharapova, Petra Kvitova, and others are hardly WTA upstarts. And whether they clamor with a shriek-y cadence (Sharapova), yelp post-point—even on opponents' errors (Kvitova), or, worst, coo all the way through their foes' next shots (Azarenka), players largely pay it small mind. Whether the tennis is played indoors or outside, there remains nothing new under the sun.

Thus for all of her consistency and her patented dearth of unforced errors on court, the shot that Wozniacki took here was poorly timed. It came on a day when her headline should have revolved around that year-end No. 1 status, something no female player has managed twice in a row since Justine Henin in the mid-2000s, and a feat that no other active woman has pulled off twice aside from Serena Williams herself (2002, 2009). Instead, Wozniacki—in cahoots with the media—changed the narrative. And to what exactly? "Wozniacki Says Players Grunt 'On Purpose.'" How terrifically boring.

Well, at least the UK's Telegraph had fun with it. That paper counted down the arguable Top 10 grunters of all time. I repeat: Who doesn't love lists? Michelle Larcher de Brito owes her notoriety entirely to the most heinous sound every uttered on a tennis court, but the player who counts her truly counts her lucky stars to be included on the rundown (gruntdown?) is one Elena Bovina. (To those thinking, "Who?" ... enjoy:)

Notably bringing up the rear at No. 10 on that well-Telegraphed list was none other than Elena Dementieva, who I affectionately dubbed Demented for that unsightly but endearing serve toss and general headcasing. When she retired at 2010's WTA year-end championships in Doha, oh, tennis fans' collective viscera did groan.

stromatolite
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:11 PM
then how do you explain players like serena or kim for example who seem to have no problem at all in handling these players that grunt

it might affect some players but then why wouldnt it affect them all the same way?

and what about those cases of players who tried to stop and then suffered because of it? there's obviously more to it than a simple fairytale as you claimed

Some people also handle Serena's serve quite well, so citing a few players who say they don't mind grunting proves nothing. And btw when it suits her Serena can turn on the grunts herself, so it would be pretty hypocritical if she suddenly started complaining about it. And to be perfectly honest, I would hope that the grunters were inconvenienced by having to stop. It's nobody's fault but theirs that they decided to become a grunter. They have probably won a few tight matches in key stages of their careers because of their grunting, so why should I weep for them if they do slightly less well for a while weaning themselves off the habit?

misty1
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:18 PM
Some people also handle Serena's serve quite well, so citing a few players who say they don't mind grunting proves nothing. And btw when it suits her Serena can turn on the grunts herself, so it would be pretty hypocritical if she suddenly started complaining about it. And to be perfectly honest, I would hope that the grunters were inconvenienced by having to stop. It's nobody's fault but theirs that they decided to become a grunter. They have probably won a few tight matches in key stages of their careers because of their grunting, so why should I weep for them if they do slightly less well for a while weaning themselves off the habit?

but the fact that the grunt doesnt affect everyone says something. If the grunting really had a negative affect on players then you'd think it would affect everyone in a way. why are some players seemingly completey thrown while others have no problem with it at all

and comparing it with the serve of serena really isnt a fair comparison. the serve is about so much more things other than pure power.

some players have come to adapt to the serena serve and found a way to deal with it, they can certainly find a way to deal with grunting.

you find a way to cope with whatever habits your opponent has

Jimmie48
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:18 PM
I don't have to convince others, Kvitova will do that today for me :oh:

Uh, I have news for you: Even if Caro loses today she's still #1 and that makes her more relevant that pretty much all other players out there, sorry :)

ViceUltramontain
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:22 PM
Woz is a whining and boring person, no surprise here. She knows her time is done despite that number one place. We all saw what happened during the last 6 months. She's done and she can't accept it. So she did the exact same thing that she does during a match when she get in troubles, she whined. She better goes back to her kangaroo fantasies, embarassing herself without looking for trouble.

Jimmie48
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:23 PM
Really? Another topic for this? If you check out the bigger topic on this issue, you`ll see that most people agree with her. But of course since Caro said it it has to be outrageous... get a life.

ViceUltramontain
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:25 PM
Really? Another topic for this? If you check out the bigger topic on this issue, you`ll see that most people agree with her. But of course since Caro said it it has to be outrageous... get a life.

We all agree with her about grunting but that's not the problem. Why bringing this subject now, during the last week of the year ?

I call attention whore.

Mary Cherry.
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:28 PM
"I don't mind it when it's Rafa"

:haha:

:facepalm:

Jimmie48
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:29 PM
We all agree with her about grunting but that's not the problem. Why bringing this subject now, during the last week of the year ?

I call attention whore.

Most likely because she was asked about her opinion, I doubt she woke up one morning and called the press just to get this off her chest.

I call that you`re deluded.

Burisleif
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:29 PM
We all agree with her about grunting but that's not the problem. Why bringing this subject now, during the last week of the year ?

I call attention whore.

So you're saying that out of the blue Caroline arranged a presser to raise the issue?

stromatolite
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:30 PM
but the fact that the grunt doesnt affect everyone says something. If the grunting really had a negative affect on players then you'd think it would affect everyone in a way. why are some players seemingly completey thrown while others have no problem with it at all

and comparing it with the serve of serena really isnt a fair comparison. the serve is about so much more things other than pure power.



I made the comparison with Serena's serve precisely to illustrate the point that different things affect different players differently. The fact that some players handle her serve quite well doesn't mean that the players who don't are only imagining that it's a good serve. And I don't know what your point about power is, I made no statement at all about what it is that makes Serena's serve so good because that's totally irrelevant to this discussion.


some players have come to adapt to the serena serve and found a way to deal with it, they can certainly find a way to deal with grunting. There are other on court habits that could be viewed as just as obnoxious such as on court stalling, abusing the time out rule and applauding the opponents erros

you find a way to cope with whatever habits your opponent has

Why should they have to deal with the grunting? Unlike Serena's serve it's got nothing to do with tennis skill, it's simply an aggravating distraction. If anyone starts campaigning to force Serena to serve left-handed from now on because she otherwise has too much advantage over other players, I'll be the first to sign a petition opposing that. And those other bad on-court behaviours could and should be policed better as well, but that is not the topic of this thread.

Andreas
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:31 PM
We all agree with her about grunting but that's not the problem. Why bringing this subject now, during the last week of the year ?

I call attention whore.

WTA is discussing the issue and wants to do something about it and therefore some journalists asked Caroline to get her opinion. You really can't be that thick.

I call "I'm desperate to hate on Wozniacki for every apparent reason" whore.

ViceUltramontain
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:32 PM
Yes, that's what I said :rolleyes:

She's the one who answered this question. She could have shut her mouth and wait for another time to go on a rant about this. And it's probably not the first time she's asked this, so go figure.

Point is she never complained about it before while she played all the players who are grunting and now that WTA want to do something about it, suddendly, she's annoyed and feel like talking about it in press conference.

Jimmie48
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:33 PM
Yes, that's what I said :rolleyes:

She's the one who answered this question. She could have shut her mouth and wait for another time to go on a rant about this. And it's probably not the first time she's asked this, so go figure.

Why wouldn't she answer the question? Her opinion is as valid as anybody's ... and what would be "another time" and why? Youīre not making any sense..

Beat
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:33 PM
http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=447683

pov
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:34 PM
Really? Another topic for this? If you check out the bigger topic on this issue, you`ll see that most people agree with her. But of course since Caro said it it has to be outrageous... get a life.
:facepalm: If you read again, you'll see that I noted that it's the first thing Wozniacki has done that I think is weak.

I don't care how many people agree with her, to me it's whining and it smacks of sour-grapes. And . . I'm fine with players grunting. I think anyone who's bothered by it should go hang in a library and stop watching sports.

ViceUltramontain
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:37 PM
Why wouldn't she answer the question? Her opinion is as valid as anybody's ... and what would be "another time" and why? Youīre not making any sense..

She played all these players without complaining and is whining now. She's the one not making sense.

misty1
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:38 PM
I made the comparison with Serena's serve precisely to illustrate the point that different things affect different players differently. The fact that some players handle her serve quite well doesn't mean that the players who don't are only imagining that it's a good serve. And I don't know what your point about power is, I made no statement at all about what it is that makes Serena's serve so good because that's totally irrelevant to this discussion.




Why should they have to deal with the grunting? Unlike Serena's serve it's got nothing to do with tennis skill, it's simply an aggravating distraction. If anyone starts campaigning to force Serena to serve left-handed from now on because she otherwise has too much advantage over other players, I'll be the first to sign a petition opposing that. And those other bad on-court behaviours could and should be policed better as well, but that is not the topic of this thread.


bottom line is i dont think anyone should have to alter how they play or what they do just to please anyone else. and yeah those other habits do have something to do with it.

if everyone has to tolerate obnoxious fist pumping or on court stalling then why should those habits be allowed to continue. im sure they affect a game in maybe not an identical way but the whole point about stopping grunting is that it gives some players an advantage, the arguement is that it affects the other player but so do those other things and yet they are still tolerated and players steal deal with them.

i only brought them up because this is viewed as obnoxious and game altering by some people but if your going to ask them to cut it out you might as well adress the other behaviours as unfair as well.

every player engages in gamesmanship at some point just because 2 of those activities arent as loud as the other one doesnt mean they are okay

Adrian.
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:39 PM
She played all these players without complaining and is whining now. She's the one not making sense.

This :oh:

Andreas
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:39 PM
:facepalm: If you read again, you'll see that I noted that it's the first thing Wozniacki has done that I think is weak.

I don't care how many people agree with her, to me it's whining and it smacks of sour-grapes. And . . I'm fine with players grunting. I think anyone who's bothered by it should go hang in a library and stop watching sports.

Are you the one who actually has to return the ball? I, personally, don't mind at all and my favourite player is Azarenka, but I can understand that the players find it annoying because sound is a big part of tennis. You need to listen to how the ball is hit so you know how to prepare for the shot. I've tried playing with an ear infection and it's close to impossible to play well when you can't hear properly.

Mary Cherry.
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:42 PM
She played all these players without complaining and is whining now. She's the one not making sense.

Who's to say she hasn't been asked any questions about grunting until now? I doubt she just turned up to her presser and starts a monologue about grunting.

stromatolite
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:42 PM
EbYxcbpeXZE

Almost missed this one. Not sure what your point is to be honest. This sounds like a sad case, but if at the age of 9 she already finds it impossible to play without grunting, I would say her parents are to blame (for heaven's sake, what kind of father would encourage or even tolerate his 4-year old grunting like that?)

gulzhan
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:43 PM
There are so many things I hate about Wozniacki's game, annoying and certainly deliberate, that kill the beauty of tennis much more than grunting. I wish I was asked for my opinion by journalists though :rolls:

stromatolite
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:43 PM
bottom line is i dont think anyone should have to alter how they play or what they do just to please anyone else. and yeah those other habits do have something to do with it.

if everyone has to tolerate obnoxious fist pumping or on court stalling then why should those habits be allowed to continue. im sure they affect a game in maybe not an identical way but the whole point about stopping grunting is that it gives some players an advantage, the arguement is that it affects the other player but so do those other things and yet they are still tolerated and players steal deal with them.

i only brought them up because this is viewed as obnoxious and game altering by some people but if your going to ask them to cut it out you might as well adress the other behaviours as unfair as well.

every player engages in gamesmanship at some point just because 2 of those activities arent as loud as the other one doesnt mean they are okay

We're just falling into repetition, nothing new being said, so in the interests of not boring others more than necessary I suggest we leave it at this.

misty1
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:45 PM
We're just falling into repetition, nothing new being said, so in the interests of not boring others more than necessary I suggest we leave it at this.

true. and its pretty damn obvious that neither of our oppinions on the matter are going to change so its better to stop before this turns into more of an argument

ViceUltramontain
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:45 PM
Who's to say she hasn't been asked any questions about grunting until now? I doubt she just turned up to her presser and starts a monologue about grunting.

I don't know for you but I'm not waiting for a journalist to ask me the question during a press conference when I'm bothered by something.

stromatolite
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:47 PM
true. and its pretty damn obvious that neither of our oppinions on the matter are going to change so its better to stop before this turns into more of an argument

:lol: fair enough!

Burisleif
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:47 PM
There are so many things I hate about Wozniacki's game, annoying and certainly deliberate, that kill the beauty of tennis much more than grunting. I wish I was asked for my opinion by journalists though :rolls:

Get off your bum, achieve a world ranking of number 1 for 54 weeks, YE#1 two years in a row, and maybe they would be interested in your opinion.

misty1
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:47 PM
I don't know for you but I'm not waiting for a journalist to ask me the question during a press conference when I'm bothered by something.

but wouldnt she seem like a bitch if she brought up grunting out of the middle of nowhere?

how would you even start to talk about it without it being asked

just stopand i say:excuse me, could we talk about grunting for a minute?"

ViceUltramontain
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:49 PM
but wouldnt she seem like a bitch if she brought up grunting out of the middle of nowhere?

Maybe. But at least she would seem honest.

Mary Cherry.
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:49 PM
I don't know for you but I'm not waiting for a journalist to ask me the question during a press conference when I'm bothered by something.

Seriously? :weirdo:

but wouldnt she seem like a bitch if she brought up grunting out of the middle of nowhere?

how would you even start to talk about it without it being asked

just stopand i say:excuse me, could we talk about grunting for a minute?"

:lol: Exactly.

ViceUltramontain
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:50 PM
but wouldnt she seem like a bitch if she brought up grunting out of the middle of nowhere?

how would you even start to talk about it without it being asked

just stopand i say:excuse me, could we talk about grunting for a minute?"

Rezai complained during a match. If players were that bothered, they would have done something to get rid of it a long time ago.

But I didn't knew that WTA was ruled by press conferences. She has other way.

spencercarlos
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:50 PM
Almost missed this one. Not sure what your point is to be honest. This sounds like a sad case, but if at the age of 9 she already finds it impossible to play without grunting, I would say her parents are to blame (for heaven's sake, what kind of father would encourage or even tolerate his 4-year old grunting like that?)
Sorry but this is no sense.

The tour had not done anything about this grunting when they really could (early 90ties and Seles case). Now all of the sudden its time to... Probably a desperation act in order to try avoid the fact that womens tennis is boring/unactractive these days.

This is what kids see on TV for godīs sake, how many things kid do after watching on TV, millions of things IMO.. Neither the parents or the kids are to blame here.

Jimmie48
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:50 PM
Maybe. But at least she would seem honest.

So in your world if somebody answers a questions she's asked then that's dishonest? You haters are getting crazier by the hour...

ViceUltramontain
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:53 PM
So in your world if somebody answers a questions she's asked then that's dishonest? You haters are getting crazier by the hour...

Yes, whining in front of the press but not saying anything when you play one of these grunters is being an hypocrite.

Jimmie48
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:54 PM
Yes, whining in front of the press but not saying anything when you play one of these grunters is being an hypocrite.

Of course you would be the first one to call her bratty and call it gamesmanship if she was complaining during a match. Please, it's obvious that youīre desperately looking for stuff to fuel your hate, it's so pathetic.

misty1
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:55 PM
Rezai complained during a match. If players were that bothered, they would have done something to get rid of it a long time ago.

But I didn't knew that WTA was ruled by press conferences. She has other way.

but if she did come out and make a remark on grunting on her own then she could be seen as honest or she could get a ton of hate because everyone would be on her and insist she was simply trying to find excuses.

its honestly safer for her to wait until she's asked

of course it seems everything the poor girl says is wrong and has something behind it these days

ViceUltramontain
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:59 PM
So, the only good way to complain is to answer a journalist's question. Right. And I wondered why I was avoiding GM these days.

Jimmie48
Oct 27th, 2011, 03:59 PM
So, the only good way to complain is to answer a journalist's question. Right. And I wondered why I was avoiding GM these days.

Do us a favor and please stick to avoid it, the last thing we need is another mindless Caro hater.

Adrian.
Oct 27th, 2011, 04:01 PM
Do us a favor and please stick to avoid it, the last thing we need is another mindless Caro hater.

He is great in creating drama :oh:

ViceUltramontain
Oct 27th, 2011, 04:01 PM
Do us a favor and please stick to avoid it, the last thing we need is another mindless Caro hater.

Yeah sure. We need more people like you, thinking she's the best player in the world.

misty1
Oct 27th, 2011, 04:02 PM
So, the only good way to complain is to answer a journalist's question. Right. And I wondered why I was avoiding GM these days.

im just trying to say that in caroline's case its a double edged sword for her.

you know im right

if she waits like she did until she's asked she'll get slammed and if she said something on her own she'd get slammed for making excuses still..even if she did get credited for saying it on her own i dont think the haters would take it any better.

ViceUltramontain
Oct 27th, 2011, 04:02 PM
He is great in creating drama :oh:

Please. You taught me everything.

Adrian.
Oct 27th, 2011, 04:04 PM
Yeah sure. We need more people like you, thinking she's the best player in the world.

:oh:

Break My Rapture
Oct 27th, 2011, 04:09 PM
How absolutely pathetic. If they actually start to ban this from tennis, players like Pova should boycott WTA. We'll see how Allaster reacts when lots of her star players boycott their ignorancy.

Seriously don't understand why people find it annoying. I watch Sharapova and Azarenka matches all the time and I never had a problem with it. For those who do, just mute the sound or stop watching all together. Bunch of pussies, seriously.

And Wozniacki should seriously stop with constantly getting herself into a line of fire.

gulzhan
Oct 27th, 2011, 04:09 PM
WTA is trying to shift the blame from sick head to the healthy one (literal translation of Russian saying :p).

It's obvious that women's tennis is in deep shit. Having as No. 1 a player who never won a GS proves that beyond any doubt.

Instead of wasting time (and taxpayers money) on fruitless campaign against so called grunters (no hawk-eye mechanism for intentional or not intentional as well as loud or not-so-loud grunting), WTA should take an action against pushers! :devil:

We are tired of the half-lobs and safe spins, defensive game that kills beauty of tennis! The rules should be changed. Two points for every winner would very quickly put Wozniacki in her legit place in the ranking. End of top 20, that's where she belongs. And I am being generous here.

:rolls:

Mary Cherry.
Oct 27th, 2011, 04:20 PM
Rezai complained during a match. If players were that bothered, they would have done something to get rid of it a long time ago.

But I didn't knew that WTA was ruled by press conferences. She has other way.

Is she supposed to go up to an umpire and say "She wasn't grunting in practice. What are you going to go about it"?.

ViceUltramontain
Oct 27th, 2011, 04:21 PM
Is she supposed to go up to an umpire and say "She wasn't grunting in practice. What are you going to go about it"?.

No. She's supposed to not say anything during years and then complain.

stromatolite
Oct 27th, 2011, 04:31 PM
Sorry but this is no sense.

The tour had not done anything about this grunting when they really could (early 90ties and Seles case). Now all of the sudden its time to... Probably a desperation act in order to try avoid the fact that womens tennis is boring/unactractive these days.

This is what kids see on TV for godīs sake, how many things kid do after watching on TV, millions of things IMO.. Neither the parents or the kids are to blame here.

You have a point, but it's not all that strong. The discussion about grunting was already being conducted when this kid was 4, so the parent's could and should have known that it could be banned within the foreseeable future. Blaming "TV", or "society" or whatever else always strikes me as a sign of pretty weak parenting.

And of course they could have (and should have) taken a stand in the early 90s, but that was a different generation of officials etc. than now. It's a bit unfair to blame the current generation for taking a stand that their predecessors were too gutless to take. The bottom line is that tennis flourished for at least a century before the grunters took over, so it's not a necessary part of the game. So at worst there is no reason to think tennis will be any the worse in the future if grunting eliminated, and several good reasons for thinking it will be better, which IMO means that it makes sense to take a stand now. They have chosen to let the currently active players off the hook, which in my opinion is already too lenient. To wait another 25 years or do nothing at all because some parents have been teaching their 4-year-olds to grunt would be just plain ridiculous.

Dominic
Oct 27th, 2011, 04:38 PM
Serena and Sharapova having the same annoyance rating. :haha::haha:

What's funny about that? You think Serena should be higher? I agree.

flareon
Oct 27th, 2011, 04:42 PM
It does not bother me, I think it can make it a bit fun as well but that my opinion.

danieln1
Oct 27th, 2011, 04:45 PM
I dont mind at all the screaming, I even find it funny to hear it!!!!

One of the must funny moments was Maria vs Williams in 05 Australian semi, it seemed they were suffering severe pain on the court, I really enjoyed watching that.

gulzhan
Oct 27th, 2011, 04:52 PM
Time for Wozniacki to complain about barking after the point. I am pretty sure Kvitova doesn't bark at practices.

Burisleif
Oct 27th, 2011, 04:55 PM
And Wozniacki should seriously stop with constantly getting herself into a line of fire.

It's her job.

faboozadoo15
Oct 27th, 2011, 05:38 PM
Can we please ban Caro. I'm sure everyone finds her annoying, and more people would pay to watch Sharapova or Serena jump rope on a court than watch Wozniacki play tennis.

stromatolite
Oct 27th, 2011, 05:47 PM
It's her job.

And in this case she's doing it well. She's certainly not the only player who dislikes grunting, but so far she's the only one with the guts to speak out on the issue. She knew she was putting herself in the line of fire with her comments, but she still made them. She's earned my respect, even if the fans of her rivals decide to mock her for it.

stromatolite
Oct 27th, 2011, 05:49 PM
How absolutely pathetic. If they actually start to ban this from tennis, players like Pova should boycott WTA. We'll see how Allaster reacts when lots of her star players boycott their ignorancy.


Allaster is the only one so far with the balls not to not give into this kind of blackmail.

Jane Lane
Oct 27th, 2011, 05:50 PM
I'm going to say it again. If they wanted to do something about it, they should've started with Seles, period end of story.
Nothing's going to change. And if it does, then they damn well better cut off Rafa and Novak's masturbation noises too. Save it for the bathroom boys.

Apoleb
Oct 27th, 2011, 05:52 PM
Grunting is terrible. I don't want to hear such terrible voices on repeat. It's really not rocket science why it is annoying. I also find it really hard to believe that it has no influence on the game.

stromatolite
Oct 27th, 2011, 05:53 PM
I'm going to say it again. If they wanted to do something about it, they should've started with Seles, period end of story.
Nothing's going to change. And if it does, then they damn well better cut off Rafa and Novak's masturbation noises too. Save it for the bathroom boys.

Why should the current generation of WTA officials give a shit if their predecessors, or their counterparts over on the ATP tour, lack(ed) the guts to do anything on this issue?

StoneRose
Oct 27th, 2011, 06:06 PM
^Because it's not fair to the players who have been allowed to do this for several years. Vika and Maria are not the only ones. Serena/Venus and for instance Francesca,Kirilenko make a lot of noise too, there are more. It'll be extremely hard for them to step off it now.

I was amazed when i heard Maria first time ~7 years ago thinking the umpire would step in. Used to it now but i'm probably in favor of toning down the noise if it can be done in a reasonable way. But begin with the academies and new players who haven't stepped up to the big stage yet. Not totally fair either i know but if you want to go this way you need to start somewhere.

And it won't be easy because where do you draw the line, decibel meters? Or duration of the shriek?

PLP
Oct 27th, 2011, 06:07 PM
EbYxcbpeXZE

That poor girl. She just wants to play.
:hug:


Grunting had been "part of our sport for years", Ms Allaster said, but improved technology had made television viewers in particular more aware of it. "There are more microphones out there, there's digital-quality of sound and it is amplified," she said. "Grunting is a normal part of our sport. The guys are grunting as well. But our female DNA transmits it in a different way."


Stacey, this is a purely sexist remark. How can she get away with this? I agree that something should be done though before it gets any worse, which it will.

Jane Lane
Oct 27th, 2011, 06:07 PM
^Because it's not fair to the players who have been allowed to do this for several years. Vika and Maria are not the only ones. Serena/Venus and for instance Francesca,Kirilenko make a lot of noise too, there are more. It'll be extremely hard for them to step off it now.

I was amazed when i heard Maria first time ~7 years ago thinking the umpire would step in. Used to it now but i'm probably in favor of toning down the noise if it can be done in a reasonable way. But begin with the academies and new players who haven't stepped up to the big stage yet. Not totally fair either i know but if you want to go this way you need to start somewhere.

And it won't be easy because where do you draw the line, decibel meters? Or duration of the shriek?

This. All of it.

JCTennisFan
Oct 27th, 2011, 06:11 PM
It is largely mental. I notice that sometimes I dont produce any sound after my shots.... and other times I produce a Williams like grunt (of corse lower because im a guy) . I think that when your more emotionally charged that it is more likely to come out. The more expressive and vocal someone is... the more likely they will have a grunt. Some shots make your core muscles tighten so fast that you unknowingly produce a sound as the air is being forced out of your lungs. But most times I think it is simply a combination of nerves and being emotionally charged.

stromatolite
Oct 27th, 2011, 06:13 PM
^Because it's not fair to the players who have been allowed to do this for several years. Vika and Maria are not the only ones. Serena/Venus and for instance Francesca,Kirilenko make a lot of noise too, there are more. It'll be extremely hard for them to step off it now.

I was amazed when i heard Maria first time ~7 years ago thinking the umpire would step in. Used to it now but i'm probably in favor of toning down the noise if it can be done in a reasonable way. But begin with the academies and new players who haven't stepped up to the big stage yet. Not totally fair either i know but if you want to go this way you need to start somewhere.

And it won't be easy because where do you draw the line, decibel meters? Or duration of the shriek?

It's really quite amazing that this defense is being bandied about here, apparently in all seriousness. The players who are causing all the trouble, who research has shown derive an unfair advantage from their grunting because it screws up their opponents' timing, who annoy the shit out of countless millions of tennis fans, are painted as the victims. You cannot be serious!!??

Unfortunately, this is the line that is being taken: the current generation is being let off the hook entirely. That said, better late than never, if they can phase it out before the next generation arrives on the scene they will have done the sport a great service.

Jane Lane
Oct 27th, 2011, 06:15 PM
It's really quite amazing that this defense is being bandied about here, apparently in all seriousness. The players who are causing all the trouble, who research has shown derive an unfair advantage from their grunting because it screws up their opponents' timing, who annoy the shit out of countless millions of tennis fans, are painted as the victims. You cannot be serious!!??

Unfortunately, this is the line that is being taken: the current generation is being let off the hook entirely. That said, better late than never, if they can phase it out before the next generation arrives on the scene they will have done the sport a great service.

This research you keep citing, I'd like to see it. Name one professional who's come out and said "I lost this match because my opponent was grunting and I couldn't hit clean shots."

stromatolite
Oct 27th, 2011, 06:23 PM
This research you keep citing, I'd like to see it. Name one professional who's come out and said "I lost this match because my opponent was grunting and I couldn't hit clean shots."

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/10/101003081714.htm

The effect is by the way not dependent on whether players are aware of it. Because it's become such a "normal" part of the game, players probably try not to dwell on it. The participants in this study were also not aware the noise was affecting them, even though the measurements showed it was.

Sharapowerr
Oct 27th, 2011, 06:28 PM
They should have dedcide it earler, i think 40% of the top 100 grunts..

rechi
Oct 27th, 2011, 06:30 PM
What will the WTA do? Will they tape mouthes next year instead of knees and shoulders??? :D


Its ridiculous! I mean when the opponent of a "grunter" cant concentrate because of the grunting, its her problem! You are a professional sports person!?! I also cant complain if a motor or machine is too loud in my work, i got to do my work anyway...

edificio
Oct 27th, 2011, 06:30 PM
As far as I can tell from that article, Allaster is saying that they want to try to discourage young players coming up from grunting excessively loudly (not discourage current WTA players from grunting) and that women's grunts, due to their voices being higher than men genetically, are higher, perhaps shriekier. You could call that sexist, but you could look at the facts--women's voices are generally higher than men's voices. In any case, try watching Murray vs. Ferrer. It can get very loud. Some players do seem to shriek, among the women, while others seem to extend their grunt beyond their opponents return (Azarenka). But both men and women grunt loudly and to try and stop women while not stopping the men is more sexist than saying that women's voices are higher genetically. The most important thing I see in Allaster's remarks is a responce to the criticism without doing anything, because...KAMAN...loud grunting is now part of tennis. It is not going away. She's paying lip service to the critics.

Jane Lane
Oct 27th, 2011, 06:31 PM
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/10/101003081714.htm

The effect is by the way not dependent on whether players are aware of it. Because it's become such a "normal" part of the game, players probably try not to dwell on it. The participants in this study were also not aware the noise was affecting them, even though the measurements showed it was.

If they're not aware of it then I'm not understanding why it's a valid argument. That's like saying the florescent lighting in a school building is what caused students to fail a test since it strained their eyes to read the questions when in reality they just didn't study.

bobito
Oct 27th, 2011, 06:38 PM
are there gonna take action against KAMAN-ers ?!? :awww:

Weren't you watching the US Open final?

The solution is simple. The rule is already there, it merely needs to be enforced. Just tell all the players that, from the start of next year, screaming when hitting the ball will be ruled hindrance and the point awarded to the opponent.

I'm going to say it again. If they wanted to do something about it, they should've started with Seles.

Agreed, but better late than never.

Nothing's going to change. And if it does, then they damn well better cut off Rafa and Novak's masturbation noises too. Save it for the bathroom boys.

No problem with that. They can slap the pair of them with a few time violation penalties while they're at it.

^Because it's not fair to the players who have been allowed to do this for several years. Vika and Maria are not the only ones. Serena/Venus and for instance Francesca,Kirilenko make a lot of noise too, there are more. It'll be extremely hard for them to step off it now.

On the contrary, it's not fair on those players who play fairly to allow others to flout the rules.

stromatolite
Oct 27th, 2011, 06:43 PM
If they're not aware of it then I'm not understanding why it's a valid argument. That's like saying the florescent lighting in a school building is what caused students to fail a test since it strained their eyes to read the questions when in reality they just didn't study.

It diminishes both reaction speed and accuracy, whether you know it's happening or not is not relevant. Many drunk drivers are not aware the alcohol is affecting their reaction speed either, but it's been proven indisputably that it is. Not really sure what the flourescent light example is supposed to prove. Of course saying or thinking something had an effect doesn't make it so. That's precisely why we need studies like this.

Jane Lane
Oct 27th, 2011, 06:45 PM
It diminishes both reaction speed and accuracy, whether you know it's happening or not is not relevant. Many drunk drivers are not aware the alcohol is affecting their reaction speed either, but it's been proven indisputably that it is. Not really sure what the flourescent light example is supposed to prove. Of course saying or thinking something had an effect doesn't make it so. That's precisely why we need studies like this.

The comparison is this: If a player isn't aware of something, in hindsight they're not going to say it bothered them, but rather that they just didn't prepare or execute properly.

bobito
Oct 27th, 2011, 06:45 PM
It diminishes both reaction speed and accuracy, whether you know it's happening or not is not relevant. Many drunk drivers are not aware the alcohol is affecting their reaction speed either, but it's been proven indisputably that it is. Not really sure what the flourescent light example is supposed to prove. Of course saying or thinking something had an effect doesn't make it so. That's precisely why we need studies like this.

:yeah:

Wiggly
Oct 27th, 2011, 06:47 PM
It's a shame that the entire WTA get criticized for a couple of selfish cheaters.

stromatolite
Oct 27th, 2011, 06:49 PM
The comparison is this: If a player isn't aware of something, in hindsight they're not going to say it bothered them, but rather that they just didn't prepare or execute properly.

I'm a bit confused by this, because this is precisely the point I've been trying to make, or at least one of them. If players are not aware it is happening, they will (falsely) attribute their poor results to something else. Is this what you're saying, in other words are you now agreeing with me?

JCTennisFan
Oct 27th, 2011, 06:49 PM
It diminishes both reaction speed and accuracy, whether you know it's happening or not is not relevant. Many drunk drivers are not aware the alcohol is affecting their reaction speed either, but it's been proven indisputably that it is. Not really sure what the flourescent light example is supposed to prove. Of course saying or thinking something had an effect doesn't make it so. That's precisely why we need studies like this.

Eh, maybe the first time the play someone with an odd scream. But id honestly say that the noises would be something that your mind would filter out, similar to background noises. If a noise is consistent in its tone and duration then your mind learns to filter that sound out because it is unlikely to be threatening. Thats why rhythmic sounds like fans or water can be soothing instead of distracting. By no means do I think that the screams on the tour are "soothing" or "relaxing" but they are rhythmic and consistent enough to where your mind could easily filter them out... allowing you to focus on playing the game.

Jane Lane
Oct 27th, 2011, 06:51 PM
I'm a bit confused by this, because this is precisely the point I've been trying to make, or at least one of them. If players are not aware it is happening, they will (falsely) attribute their poor results to something else. Is this what you're saying, in other words are you now agreeing with me?

Eh, maybe the first time the play someone with an odd scream. But id honestly say that the noises would be something that your mind would filter out, similar to background noises. If a noise is consistent in its tone and duration then your mind learns to filter that sound out because it is unlikely to be threatening. Thats why rhythmic sounds like fans or water can be soothing instead of distracting. By no means do I think that the screams on the tour are "soothing" or "relaxing" but they are rhythmic and consistent enough to where your mind could easily filter them out... allowing you to focus on playing the game.

That is my argument much more eloquently put than I appear to be doing.

stromatolite
Oct 27th, 2011, 06:59 PM
Eh, maybe the first time the play someone with an odd scream. But id honestly say that the noises would be something that your mind would filter out, similar to background noises. If a noise is consistent in its tone and duration then your mind learns to filter that sound out because it is unlikely to be threatening. Thats why rhythmic sounds like fans or water can be soothing instead of distracting. By no means do I think that the screams on the tour are "soothing" or "relaxing" but they are rhythmic and consistent enough to where your mind could easily filter them out... allowing you to focus on playing the game.

That's one theory, and further tests would be needed to prove whether it holds any water, but I must admit at face value I don't find it very convincing. The sounds may be somewhat consistent (but actually not even that: the worst shriekers are notorious for varying the intensity and duration of their screams as the situation demands), but they're anything but rhythmic, and happen at precisely the moment when concentration and response speed is most acutely needed. Multiply that over the typical duration of a tennis match and I think you may well find that the true effect is much worse than this study suggests, as the strain of filtering out the constant noise pollution takes an increasing toll on the player's concentration.

JCTennisFan
Oct 27th, 2011, 07:07 PM
That's one theory, and further tests would be needed to prove whether it holds any water, but I must admit at face value I don't find it very convincing. The sounds may be somewhat consistent (but actually not even that: the worst shriekers are notorious for varying the intensity and duration of their screams as the situation demands), but they're anything but rhythmic, and happen at precisely the moment when concentration and response speed is most acutely needed. Multiply that over the typical duration of a tennis match and I think you may well find that the true effect is much worse than this study suggests, as the strain of filtering out the constant noise pollution takes an increasing toll on the player's concentration.

If your gonna go that far then we need to start factoring in the Crowd as well.... because if anything the crowds' sounds vary tremendously in their instensity, tone, duration, etc. What im trying to get at is there are TONS of stimuli that your brain has to filter out during a professional tennis match (especially on the main courts of Slams), so much that if you actually broke it down you'd be amazed. Our minds are MADE to filter out things which arent important. Do shrieks and sounds of that nature add another level of stimuli that your brain has to filter? well yes, of corse it does. But overall if your letting things like that break your concentration, then you arent a top player.

Its not like this is just a female problem either..... arguably MORE men grunt than women do. It basically is just coming down to the higher pitches, which the article itself mentioned, that the female players are producing which is more distracting. Higher pitches do admittedly get more distracting to the mind... and thats why a Sharapova or Azarenka scream is more distracting than a Djokovic or Nadal scream. But that doesnt take from the fact that BOTH tours do it.

stromatolite
Oct 27th, 2011, 07:16 PM
If your gonna go that far then we need to start factoring in the Crowd as well.... because if anything the crowds' sounds vary tremendously in their instensity, tone, duration, etc. What im trying to get at is there are TONS of stimuli that your brain has to filter out during a professional tennis match (especially on the main courts of Slams), so much that if you actually broke it down you'd be amazed. Our minds are MADE to filter out things which arent important. Do shrieks and sounds of that nature add another level of stimuli that your brain has to filter? well yes, of corse it does. But overall if your letting things like that break your concentration, then you arent a top player.

Its not like this is just a female problem either..... arguably MORE men grunt than women do. It basically is just coming down to the higher pitches, which the article itself mentioned, that the female players are producing which is more distracting. Higher pitches do admittedly get more distracting to the mind... and thats why a Sharapova or Azarenka scream is more distracting than a Djokovic or Nadal scream. But that doesnt take from the fact that BOTH tours do it.

The ATP vs WTA issue has already been extensively discussed, so I'm not going to recover old ground, just read the earlier posts.

Interesting that you bring up the crowd noise. I don't know whether you noticed, but umpires ask the crowd to be quiet while the serve is being hit, and admonish anyone in the crowd who makes a deliberately distracting sound while a player is making a shot. The general noise level during a match is not really the point, but the effort of filtering out abberrant noises that take place at precisely the moment you are executing your shot.

JCTennisFan
Oct 27th, 2011, 07:20 PM
The ATP vs WTA issue has already been extensively discussed, so I'm not going to recover old ground, just read the earlier posts.

Interesting that you bring up the crowd noise. I don't know whether you noticed, but umpires ask the crowd to be quiet while the serve is being hit, and admonish anyone in the crowd who makes a deliberately distracting sound while a player is making a shot. The general noise level during a match is not really the point, but the effort of filtering out abberrant noises that take place at precisely the moment you are executing your shot.

I would say the truth of the matter lies somewhere between what both of us are saying. There are times when both of our opinions are correct, depending on the situation. Long duration howls are the most suspect in my opinion of any of the player-produced noises.

And ps, just because an umpire tells the crowd to shut up... doesnt mean that it works. the FO crowd is notorious for being loud and rude. They probably have gotten into more players' heads than any grunt ever has... lol.

stromatolite
Oct 27th, 2011, 07:27 PM
I would say the truth of the matter lies somewhere between what both of us are saying. There are times when both of our opinions are correct, depending on the situation. Long duration howls are the most suspect in my opinion of any of the player-produced noises.

It's certainly not black and white, but all in all I think there's enough grounds for the authorities to take a tough stance on this, at least for the next generation of players. If they are clear now it will no longer be tolerated in X number of years, the junior players will shy away from developing a scream as part of their game. Like I said about 10 pages ago, until a few decades ago players didn't even scream at all, and I'm talking about some of the best players ever to pick up a tennis racquet. It serves no positive purpose, and the game will be better off if it is consigned to the junkheap of history. If they do that in a way that doesn't affect the current generation of shriekers, I can't see why even their fans should have any objections. And although I will continue to grumble from time to time about it not happening earlier, I could live with that as well ;)

Lord Choc Ice
Oct 27th, 2011, 07:29 PM
I like making fun of the grunting, especially Vika's :mad:. Some grunts are painful sure (like MJMS) but the good/funny outweighs the bad :mad:.

StoneRose
Oct 28th, 2011, 02:38 AM
On the contrary, it's not fair on those players who play fairly to allow others to flout the rules. This is the most important point. I don't care about kibitzers, if they don't like the sport, just stay away and go watching something stupid like soccer, will be few, most spectators just need something to whine about. Sometimes i'm not into all that noise myself, NP just put on a Stoneroses record and watch Vika :yeah:.

The accusation that it puts other players at a disadvantage because they can't hear the sound of the ball coming off the racket is serious. I'm not an expert, Sam Stosur is and she says (and proved) it's not really a problem. But it would be better if that accusation can't be made so i'm for toning it down in the future. However forcing the current generation to do this will create more problems than it solves. And let's be realistic here, all slams this year were won by relatively quiet players and even huge favorite but noisy Serena was defeated by quiet "i don't care" Sam.

Bronx19
Oct 28th, 2011, 02:52 AM
I really hate the way the WTA/female ex players and commentators try and justify this garbage. 'The men grunt' and 'female DNA' is fucking stupid shit.

The men arent nearly has bad, the only one I can think of that is remotely annoying is Nadal. I especially dislike Sharapova's "I wont change". Really? They shoudl give her two options, stop screaming or piss off and find another job.

Its very simple, when you exhale there is no need to engage your fucking vocal cords. Do you hear athletes screaming into spirometers when they measure lung function? No.

Keadz
Oct 28th, 2011, 03:13 AM
There's a racket going on here: Stosur
Linda Pearce
October 28, 2011

ISTANBUL: As the scream theme dominating the WTA Championships muffled the sound of Sam Stosur's inglorious thud back to earth before her final round-robin match against Li Na on Friday, the Australian and her coach, David Taylor, have both been drawn into an on-court shrieking debate that will not be silenced.

World No.1 Caroline Wozniacki effectively accused some of her peers of cheating by grunting loudly and ''on purpose'' while hitting the ball, calling on officials to police a practice she said gave the worst offenders an unfair advantage by masking the sound of the ball off the racquet.

Stosur, whose US Open final opponent, Serena Williams, was famously penalised under the ''hindrance rule'' for calling out ''c'mon'' before a rally had finished, said after Wednesday's 6-2, 6-2 loss to high-decibel Belarusian Victoria Azarenka that, while she was not bothered by her opponent's noise and was generally ambivalent about the issue, she found it ''horrible'' TV viewing. ''I don't like hearing it when I'm watching it on TV, but when I'm out there I don't really notice it,'' she said. ''I think when you hear it every single time, you become unaware of it almost. But I don't know.

'I guess it's one of those things. Some players feel the need to do it and some don't. … I think if it is deliberate, it's probably not right.''

Taylor despises what he calls the ''illogical screaming'', and said he was regularly approached by members of the public who say ''Oh, it's great Sam won [the US Open] because she doesn't scream''. He said the grunts often came after the ball had been hit and when matches were close.

''I think this is really unpleasant for people who don't know tennis, and I think we're in tennis so we accept it more. But I think the general public don't like it, and I can see how it would be very unappealing to come and watch a match … Sam's one of the quiet players, just gets on with the business, and I wish there were more people like that.''

Yet the Fed Cup captain rates as a far more serious issue Frenchwoman Marion Bartoli's constant jiggling around before returning serve in her recent 6-3, 6-1 finals win against Stosur in Osaka. Taylor was critical of ''a lot of excessive movement from Bartoli when the player's about to toss the ball and you're seeing out of the corner of your eye massive movement across, forward, I think that's pretty close to hindrance''. ''The movement when someone's serving I think is a real concern. It's always a judgment call of the umpire isn't it? But I don't think that's correct,'' he said.

Bartoli, the first alternate in Istanbul, will replace the injured Sharapova for tonight's final group matches, the second seed having withdrawn following her opening night loss to Stosur with another against Li. That guaranteed Wozniacki - who remains slam-less, and was beaten 6-2, 4-6, 6-3 by Vera Zvonareva yesterday - a second straight year-end No.1 ranking, last achieved by Justine Henin in 2006-7.

Stosur's fate is still to be determined, but she is within touching distance of a second consecutive year in the last four, and the world No.7 carries a 5-0 career record against Li into a match that is likely to decide who reaches the semis.

The Queenslander said she had troubled Li in the past with her kick serve out wide and expects no surprises in either player's approach this time. ''I think it's one of those matches where I've got to definitely go out there, play aggressive, and know that maybe 'these are her tendencies, these are mine, and how are they going to match up'?''

Stosur said she was determined not to dwell on her downer against Azarenka - her fifth consecutive loss against the voluble fourth seed - under a round-robin format where one strike does not necessarily mean out. Taylor was also upbeat, describing the Azarenka performance as ''an isolated bad match'' that was Stosur's worst since her first-round Wimbledon shocker against Hungarian Melinda Czink.

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/tennis/theres-a-racket-going-on-here-stosur-20111027-1mm5n.html

Brad[le]y.
Oct 28th, 2011, 03:22 AM
'annoyance rating' :spit:

anyway it puzzles me as to why they are starting to discuss this now; it's been going on for a while :shrug:

cowsonice
Oct 28th, 2011, 03:26 AM
Yadayada, WTA.

IMO, it's gonna be all talk and no action, considering how sometimes "grunting" is part of WTA's "sex appeal"

Whitehead's Boy
Oct 28th, 2011, 03:47 AM
'annoyance rating' :spit:

anyway it puzzles me as to why they are starting to discuss this now; it's been going on for a while :shrug:

Probably a sponsor complained, otherwise I'm not sure to see why would the WTA react at this point.

Most likely the Sharapova vs Azarenka finals provoked discussions. Sure Seles was loud, but her main opponents weren't. When both players are screaming loud, it's just ridiculous and unwatchable.

If I judge from the reaction of non-tennis fans, it's clear a lot of people have trouble taking the game seriously, or won't bother watching at all, because of the grunts. About time WTA takes action.

treufreund
Oct 28th, 2011, 03:54 AM
Caroline :D Sam :D

ElusiveChanteuse
Oct 28th, 2011, 03:58 AM
BEpa was 'intentionally' screaming when she had MPs.:oh:

gc-spurs
Oct 28th, 2011, 04:03 AM
How absolutely pathetic. If they actually start to ban this from tennis, players like Pova should boycott WTA. We'll see how Allaster reacts when lots of her star players boycott their ignorancy.

Seriously don't understand why people find it annoying. I watch Sharapova and Azarenka matches all the time and I never had a problem with it. For those who do, just mute the sound or stop watching all together. Bunch of pussies, seriously.

And Wozniacki should seriously stop with constantly getting herself into a line of fire.

Yeah and Serena '3/5 annoyance rating' Williams. Lets see how that goes down. Good luck to them try to do anything about it when two of the sports biggest names are notable 'perps'.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/10/101003081714.htm

The effect is by the way not dependent on whether players are aware of it. Because it's become such a "normal" part of the game, players probably try not to dwell on it. The participants in this study were also not aware the noise was affecting them, even though the measurements showed it was.

Study validity fail...

I really hate the way the WTA/female ex players and commentators try and justify this garbage. 'The men grunt' and 'female DNA' is fucking stupid shit.

The men arent nearly has bad, the only one I can think of that is remotely annoying is Nadal. I especially dislike Sharapova's "I wont change". Really? They shoudl give her two options, stop screaming or piss off and find another job.

Its very simple, when you exhale there is no need to engage your fucking vocal cords. Do you hear athletes screaming into spirometers when they measure lung function? No.

Yeah lets give her those two options and see what tournament sponsors and organisers have to say.

gc-spurs
Oct 28th, 2011, 04:04 AM
Probably a sponsor complained, otherwise I'm not sure to see why would the WTA react at this point.

Most likely the Sharapova vs Azarenka finals provoked discussions. Sure Seles was loud, but her main opponents weren't. When both players are screaming loud, it's just ridiculous and unwatchable.

If I judge from the reaction of non-tennis fans, it's clear a lot of people have trouble taking the game seriously, or won't bother watching at all, because of the grunts. About time WTA takes action.
Doubt a sponsor would complain about this matchup- its rather high interest, no?

backhandsmash
Oct 28th, 2011, 04:22 AM
I really hate the way the WTA/female ex players and commentators try and justify this garbage. 'The men grunt' and 'female DNA' is fucking stupid shit.

The men arent nearly has bad, the only one I can think of that is remotely annoying is Nadal. I especially dislike Sharapova's "I wont change". Really? They shoudl give her two options, stop screaming or piss off and find another job.

Its very simple, when you exhale there is no need to engage your fucking vocal cords. Do you hear athletes screaming into spirometers when they measure lung function? No.

Sharapova's response: "Good luck with that! Looking forward to seeing you in the unemploymennt line while driving my Benz lol ."

That woman is untouchable and the WTA knows it.


It's all about teaching the juniors to shut it.

Cleffa
Oct 28th, 2011, 04:34 AM
Wouldn't it be very difficult to differentiate what kind of grunts and "Kamans" are legal and what aren't? Especially when you can't judge or tell someone deep in their thoughts whether they do it on purpose or just reflex and that only god can tell the answer?

Trih
Oct 28th, 2011, 05:07 AM
What a pile of bullshit. They act against grunting, and do nothing about ranking system and bad quality of players?

stromatolite
Oct 28th, 2011, 05:32 AM
Study validity fail...



Tip: stay out of the discussion if you don't know what you're talking about, which is clearly the case.

Whitehead's Boy
Oct 28th, 2011, 06:11 AM
Doubt a sponsor would complain about this matchup- its rather high interest, no?

Matchup isn't everything. Sponsors worry about their image and products they associate themselves with.

I'm sure they have firms monitering social media like Twitter, and if there's a lot of negative reactions, they take notes and ask for changes.

Who knows, it might not be the reason, but what other reason would prompt the WTA to react now?

stromatolite
Oct 28th, 2011, 06:24 AM
Doubt a sponsor would complain about this matchup- its rather high interest, no?

Given the fact that the WTA apparently has absolutely no intention of taking action against the current generation of players (a pity, but understandable, given the blackmail these divas are submitting them to), this is the wrong question. The question that should be asked but nobody has bothered to ask it is: Would a sponsor (or fans, or the media, or other players, or your pet cat....) complain about a match between 2 "hot stars" like this if they didn't grunt? There is absolutely no argument for keeping grunting in the game if all they have to do to weed it out is announce that they will start penalizing players for grunting in X number of years (with a long enough margin to absolve the current generation). If they are clear about this and stick to their guns, young players will not start to grunt (like countless generations before the 80s), and be none the worse for it as players.

hERi
Oct 28th, 2011, 06:26 AM
I think its one of caro's tactical because she's so intimidated by sharapova and vika ranking...poor you, caro!

Apoleb
Oct 28th, 2011, 06:34 AM
The only problem is where do you draw the line. Was Zvonareva's loud grunting on match points OK yesterday? Should we ban grunting completely? That can take away from the drama and the tension, and a lot of players do grunt at one point or another if not continuously.

Someone please put a clear plan on this. Otherwise the WTA is right in targeting the academies rather than imposing rules.

stromatolite
Oct 28th, 2011, 07:03 AM
The only problem is where do you draw the line. Was Zvonareva's loud grunting on match points OK yesterday? Should we ban grunting completely? That can take away from the drama and the tension, and a lot of players do grunt at one point or another if not continuously.

Someone please put a clear plan on this. Otherwise the WTA is right in targeting the academies rather than imposing rules.

I think targeting the academies is probably a waste of time unless you're prepared to impose rules. I don't think it's that complicated. Probably no reason to penalize incidental grunting per se, but if it occurs on a crucial point from a player who otherwise doesn't grunt the current hindrance rule could be invoked, since the grunting was in that case presumably deliberate. The key to any set of rules is a fairly low threshold, not requiring absolute silence, but issuing a warning if the grunting starts to get louder than a murmur. The umps could use decibel meters if they liked, but I really doubt it would be needed, like a lot of things in the current game it's fine to leave this to the discretion of the umpires, and if the threshold is generally low you won't get much between-umpire variation in how the rule is enforced.

gorre
Oct 28th, 2011, 08:28 AM
Wozniacki agrees because all those grunters like Pova, Vika, Serena, (Petra?) are better than she :)


She should find fault with herself instead of finding fault with others :mad:

Apoleb
Oct 28th, 2011, 08:28 AM
I think targeting the academies is probably a waste of time unless you're prepared to impose rules. I don't think it's that complicated. Probably no reason to penalize incidental grunting per se, but if it occurs on a crucial point from a player who otherwise doesn't grunt the current hindrance rule could be invoked, since the grunting was in that case presumably deliberate. The key to any set of rules is a fairly low threshold, not requiring absolute silence, but issuing a warning if the grunting starts to get louder than a murmur. The umps could use decibel meters if they liked, but I really doubt it would be needed, like a lot of things in the current game it's fine to leave this to the discretion of the umpires, and if the threshold is generally low you won't get much between-umpire variation in how the rule is enforced.

I think the issue is with the chronic grunters rather than the occasional ones. I don't know - warning someone if they ever get above a certain level seems too restrictive. Sometimes it does get natural when under pressure, and it does add up to more intensity and drama.

It's people like Sharapova, Azarenka and the WS that are the real problem. Becuase they do it all the time, on the most banal shots, and really make the viewing experience very bad.

I think it's the culture of developing grunting as a habit that should be disadvantaged. It will make a lot of sense now to target the junior field.

stromatolite
Oct 28th, 2011, 08:39 AM
I think the issue is with the chronic grunters rather than the occasional ones. I don't know - warning someone if they ever get above a certain level seems too restrictive. Sometimes it does get natural when under pressure, and it does add up to more intensity and drama.

I think you're forgetting that for most of tennis history, players didn't grunt at all. It may become a kind of "second nature" for players over time, but it's clearly learned behaviour. If you nip it in the bud it will disappear.

It's people like Sharapova, Azarenka and the WS that are the real problem. Becuase they do it all the time, on the most banal shots, and really make the viewing experience very bad.

Targetting the upper end of the range is going to be much more difficult to police than targetting the lower end, and a lot more open to accusations that particular players are being unfairly targeted by umpires (a ridiculous accusation, but it would occur).

I think it's the culture of developing grunting as a habit that should be disadvantaged. It will make a lot of sense now to target the junior field.

Targetting the juniors by way of the academies is a good idea, but you have to underscore that with some kind of credible threat that if they don't get their acts together it will be enforced via the rules. Otherwise all it takes is one academy (or even one player) that chooses to ignore the guidelines and it will all come unravelled, because all the others will then say "If they(she) can do it, why can't we(I)?"

Mightymirza
Oct 28th, 2011, 08:39 AM
Michael Stich once called it "disgusting, ugly, unsexy"

That's way over the top, especially saying that it is unsexy

Djokovic and Nadal are also doing it.. :tape: Nobody seems to be saying anything abt them :tape:

Lord Choc Ice
Oct 28th, 2011, 08:44 AM
Djokovic and Nadal are also doing it.. :tape: Nobody seems to be saying anything abt them :tape:
Ferrer's the loudest on ATP.

Mynarco
Oct 28th, 2011, 09:00 AM
Djokovic and Nadal are also doing it.. :tape: Nobody seems to be saying anything abt them :tape:
Nadal's:tape::tape::tape:

Italian power
Oct 28th, 2011, 09:04 AM
Pushniacki shut up plz

StephenUK
Oct 28th, 2011, 09:47 AM
Sorry but this is no sense.

The tour had not done anything about this grunting when they really could (early 90ties and Seles case). Now all of the sudden its time to... Probably a desperation act in order to try avoid the fact that womens tennis is boring/unactractive these days.

This is what kids see on TV for godīs sake, how many things kid do after watching on TV, millions of things IMO.. Neither the parents or the kids are to blame here.

I agree with this. If the authorities were going to tackle this issue, they should have done something late 80s when Seles was coming up in the game, because even when the players ganged up on her at 1992 Wimbledon and Seles played grunt-free and lost badly in the final, it seemed like some sort of Johnny-cum-lately sour grapes witchhunt.

To now try and do something 20 years on is stupid. Why should the Williams sisters, Sharapova, Vika etc get away with it for years and only the newer wave be singled out? That seems unfair.

One thing on the issue of grunting being taught, though. I was at Wimbledon this year and got there early to watch junior matches on outside courts and got to see Caroline Garcia play. From another court, I could hear this Vika-like wail and was wondering whether Azarenka was practising somewhere nearby and was thinking of taking a look, but then I realised it wasn't her but soundalike Irina Khromacheva!!! I find it hard to believe that this was not taught along with other shots, given that it is such a unique sound, so maybe there is something in this accusation.

stromatolite
Oct 28th, 2011, 09:52 AM
I agree with this. If the authorities were going to tackle this issue, they should have done something late 80s when Seles was coming up in the game, because even when the players ganged up on her at 1992 Wimbledon and Seles played grunt-free and lost badly in the final, it seemed like some sort of Johnny-cum-lately sour grapes witchhunt.

To now try and do something 20 years on is stupid. Why should the Williams sisters, Sharapova, Vika etc get away with it for years and only the newer wave be singled out? That seems unfair.

One thing on the issue of grunting being taught, though. I was at Wimbledon this year and got there early to watch junior matches on outside courts and got to see Caroline Garcia play. From another court, I could hear this Vika-like wail and was wondering whether Azarenka was practising somewhere nearby and was thinking of taking a look, but then I realised it wasn't her but soundalike Irina Khromacheva!!! I find it hard to believe that this was not taught along with other shots, given that it is such a unique sound, so maybe there is something in this accusation.

Why? If it's a good idea to ban it, what does it matter that earlier generations of officials have lacked the guts to tackle the issue? As for it being unfair to the current generation vis a vis earlier generations: unfair to who? It's fairer to the players who don't grunt to ban it.

GoofyDuck
Oct 28th, 2011, 09:55 AM
I agree people that grunt on dropshots to be brought back to reality.

People that grunt on ocassion for example in a long rally or when stretching to get a ball back.. That's normal.
Same with serving, it's ok to grunt a bit for the amount of effort you have to put in it. Sometimes you can't control a grunt at those moments either.

LUVMIRZA
Oct 28th, 2011, 10:07 AM
Queen Wozniacka issuing statements left and right:spit:

goldlion
Oct 28th, 2011, 10:31 AM
I'm sure WTA won't do anything aganist Sharapova. It's hard to draw the line, what do you mean by 'it's okay to grunt if it's natural'? Everyone's definition is different. It's only a yes or no. Not a maybe it's okay.

Uncharted
Oct 28th, 2011, 10:52 AM
Nothing will happen, what are they going to do? It's all too common place now. Sounds just like a "New-Brush-Sweeps-Clean" statement.

ZODIAC
Oct 28th, 2011, 11:10 AM
Serena hardly grunts and should not be included in this bunch.I think a lot of players grunt like Petko,Schiavone and those frequent adjes from Ana are a turn off..Kvitova has this weird bark that comes from nowhere.Azarenka has the worst grunt on tour and it last longer coupled with her sour pus attitude....major turnoff.

Bronx19
Oct 28th, 2011, 11:14 AM
Yeah lets give her those two options and see what tournament sponsors and organisers have to say.

Please, no one is bigger than the game. The next best will fill her spot and the big events will again be packed out. Besides that, Maria was gone for a long time and has had shit results since. She is close to irrelevence.

The WTA has become a joke in the last few years. The level of play from week to week is crap and the screaming is out of control. Its simply turned into who can be the biggest skank on court and attract a few contracts.

stromatolite
Oct 28th, 2011, 11:18 AM
Serena hardly grunts and should not be included in this bunch.I think a lot of players grunt like Petko,Schiavone and those frequent adjes from Ana are a turn off..Kvitova has this weird bark that comes from nowhere.Azarenka has the worst grunt on tour and it last longer coupled with her sour pus attitude....major turnoff.

Agree, and unlike the others she probably wouldn't be affected one bit if it was suddenly banned, she can play just fine without it. I hate the adjes and barks too, but it might be difficult to prevent players from making noises after the point has been played.

Wiggly
Oct 28th, 2011, 12:51 PM
Kirilenko began to grunt mid-career. Ridiculous.
Zvonareva grunts like a crazy women when she's desperate.
Bartoli has a now sound every tournament.

If they ban grunting, the only player who could boycott the Tour and actually have an impact is Sharapova.
But she has a lot of sponsors to please so she'll play anyways.