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View Full Version : Ex-IRA bigwig seeks Irish Presidency


*JR*
Sep 17th, 2011, 09:42 PM
http://www.irishcentral.com/story/news/periscope/martin-mcguinness-presidential-move-a-major-coup-for-sinn-fein----either-way-they-will-win-130009168.html

Albeit that the job is mostly ceremonial, whereas the Taoiseach (Gaelic for PM, pronounced roughly TEE-shuck) runs the government. Still, if Martin McGuinness wins, it will be a useful step towards a united Ireland. :rocker:

KournikovaFan91
Sep 18th, 2011, 05:45 AM
:woohoo:

Of course I'm not in the fucking country for the election :mad: But he is a candidate I can throw my support behind, unlike some candidates he has always been completely up front about his past.

I am so excited about this race now :)

Halardfan
Sep 18th, 2011, 07:40 AM
Should he win, time for a return visit by Her Majesty the Queen. He has said he would be obliged to greet her as any other head of state. That I want to see.

Monzanator
Sep 18th, 2011, 07:59 AM
Have the Sinn Fein people played a significant part in the political life in Eire lately? Besides what you mean by a step towards "united Ireland". I suspect there are enough loyalists in Ulster to prevent from that happenning anytime soon.

*JR*
Sep 18th, 2011, 01:00 PM
Have the Sinn Fein people played a significant part in the political life in Eire lately? Besides what you mean by a step towards "united Ireland". I suspect there are enough loyalists in Ulster to prevent from that happenning anytime soon.

There is no such thing as "Ulster" :spit: just 6 counties the Bloody Brits kept in 1922 (instead of leasing the naval ports it felt it needed if the "Jerries" restarted WWI, as they later did) like the US kept when it left Cuba, and for a few decades in the Phillipines.

And B4 a certain English resident of Japan mentions that the US still has a controversial navel presence on their island of Okinawa, I'd end that "yesterday". As the IRA said during the weapons de-comissioning process a decade ago, its remaining ones were not "in use". (Then First Minister David Trimble angrily remarked that the gun in a mugger's pocket was also "not in use") :tape:

Even the non-political "Sir" Paul put this to music back in the 70s. And B4U ask, I don't want to expel anyone, those settlers who chose to remain can have the same rights as anyone else, including those in the EU and Council of Europe Charters. :angel: BTW, Julie Halard's country knew what to do with its so-called "royalty". :p

kaO4XeHhwo8

Ferg
Sep 18th, 2011, 01:56 PM
Eh, its another candidate but I wont be voting for him. Unless David Norris re-enters the race I probably wont be voting at all, such an uninspiring list. I guess McGuiness does add some starpower to the line-up but still... Anyone BUT Gay Mitchell for me, that guy is awful. Fine Gael choosing between him and that arsehole Pat Cox, seems like they're trying to lose it.

I tweeted Michael Healy Rae asking why he nominated ex-terrorist McGuiness and wont nominate Norris... I dont think I'll get a reply.

KournikovaFan91
Sep 18th, 2011, 02:35 PM
Mitchell won't get a vote from anyone under 50. I mean he is a representation of ultra catholic Ireland, not a modern representative for the state.

You all know Nelson Mandela was called a terrorist at the same time that McGuinness was. Hugo Chavez led an illegal coup in Venezuela, was jailed and then pardoned before becoming the most successful president of Venezuela ever. I mean all of Ireland's original leaders would have been called terrorists if that word was used at the time yet they are all placed on a pedestal. Hardly suprising the Irish public have a massive double standard when it comes to that though :rolleyes:

Ferg
Sep 18th, 2011, 03:08 PM
Theres a massive difference between the people who got us our independence and those criminals. First and foremost, the original IRA were fighting for our liberation by targeting legitimate targets, spies, soldiers, men in high positions etc. Im a strong believer in a united Ireland but how anyone can glorify the IRA for bombing innocent people and carrying out a campaign of murders, kidnappings and 'disappearances', even on their own people, is beyond me. They were criminals, full stop. If they wanted their rights they should have let people like John Hume do his work through legal and political means. The IRA were a massive block to the peace process.

KournikovaFan91
Sep 18th, 2011, 03:35 PM
The more modern IRA also wanted liberation. The both had the exact same basic agenda.

As for the "disappeared" they weren't disappearing for saying their prayers, you can't put informants in the same category as civilians. Just because they betrayed the IRA doesn't them make them civilians they were just as involved as everyone else.

I mean Nelson Mandela was at the top of the MK which is to the ANC what the Provisional IRA is to SF yet the world puts him on a pedestal. Although the rest of the world is probably less hostile to Adams and McGuinness than Ireland.

Also several big names on the Irish political scene were Official IRA members, like Eamon Gilmore for example who people touted as a potential Taoiseach when Labour were popular for a while. Proinsias De Rossa was imprisoned for being a member yet they all get a pass.

The mainstream media in Ireland had better get used to the fact SF are popular across the country now and their lame attempts to prevent that won't work.

Tony Benn on SF
K2HyE2bH5QQ

Jessie Jackson on Adam (admittedly not Martin but same thing)
m9tbftO1cFM

Ferg
Sep 18th, 2011, 03:47 PM
They did have the same agenda. Doesnt mean they are the same force nor does it justify their actions. I see their point of view, I just cant look past the atrocities they committed. If Mandela committed the types of atrocities the IRA did (I have no knowledge of this subject) it still doesnt justify them in the least, they shouldnt get a free pass just because he did it too. Tell that to the families of the victims of Omagh and I dont think there would be a great reaction.

KournikovaFan91
Sep 18th, 2011, 03:50 PM
The MK weren't as big as the IRA was but it was still the armed wing of a political party. Margaret Thatcher called Mandela a terrorist around the same time she called Martin McGuinness one so I guess Martin is in good company there :shrug:

Chris 84
Sep 18th, 2011, 05:17 PM
The MK weren't as big as the IRA was but it was still the armed wing of a political party. Margaret Thatcher called Mandela a terrorist around the same time she called Martin McGuinness one so I guess Martin is in good company there :shrug:

i agree fully with the point you are making. mandela was every bit as much a terrorist as mcguinness, but he is made out to be an awesome superhero, whereas ira-linked politicians are made out to be evil. they both fought for what they believed in and both used questionable methods which many people strongly disagree with.

fact is, anybody who is anti-mcguinness (based on his past) but pro-mandela is either a hypocrite or ignorant.

Ciarán
Sep 18th, 2011, 05:38 PM
I am happy for McGuinness :shrug: Has anyone heard recent news on what was going to happen to those DUP members who attended Ronan Kerr's funeral? The fact that the DUP prohibits any of it's members from attending Catholic ceremonies is a disgrace, especially in such a sensitive case as Kerr's. Sinn Fein is clearly the way forward for this country.

*JR*
Sep 18th, 2011, 06:12 PM
If they wanted their rights they should have let people like John Hume do his work through legal and political means. The IRA were a massive block to the peace process.

Hume (who shared the 1998 Nobel Peace Prize with David Trimble) is a good man, but was powerless to change things. In fact, if not for the Good Friday Accords (which simply would not have happened without 3 decades of "The Troubles" leading to them) Hume and Trimble wouldn't have been in Stormont Castle trying to administer home rule to begin with. And as Gerry Adams has said, those are like a "delayed divorce".

22 years B4 their shared PP, another duo from each side got the award (Betty Williams and Mairead Corrigan) yet of course those 2 nice ladies changed basically nothing. :shrug: Sometimes @ least "the credible threat of force" is needed to effect major change. The ANC Armed Wing IS a good example, albeit together with international support; 1984 Nobel PP winner (Archbishop) Desmond Tutu could never have ended minority rule of South Africa.

Halardfan
Sep 18th, 2011, 10:59 PM
McGuinness was a terrorist, by any sensible definition of the word.

I find him a more palatable figure than Adams, because there is a sense sometimes of him trying to make up for his terrible wrongs, and what must be terrible guilt, via the peace process.

It was a staggering thing, the close working relationship he built up with Iain Paisley. Both men had an awful lot to answer for, for wasted years and wasted lives.

Halardfan
Sep 18th, 2011, 11:03 PM
Theres a massive difference between the people who got us our independence and those criminals. First and foremost, the original IRA were fighting for our liberation by targeting legitimate targets, spies, soldiers, men in high positions etc. Im a strong believer in a united Ireland but how anyone can glorify the IRA for bombing innocent people and carrying out a campaign of murders, kidnappings and 'disappearances', even on their own people, is beyond me. They were criminals, full stop. If they wanted their rights they should have let people like John Hume do his work through legal and political means. The IRA were a massive block to the peace process.

John Hume is a true hero, and a thousand times the man any of the cowardly Republicans were.

Halardfan
Sep 18th, 2011, 11:35 PM
There is no such thing as "Ulster" :spit: just 6 counties the Bloody Brits kept in 1922 (instead of leasing the naval ports it felt it needed if the "Jerries" restarted WWI, as they later did) like the US kept when it left Cuba, and for a few decades in the Phillipines.

And B4 a certain English resident of Japan mentions that the US still has a controversial navel presence on their island of Okinawa, I'd end that "yesterday". As the IRA said during the weapons de-comissioning process a decade ago, its remaining ones were not "in use". (Then First Minister David Trimble angrily remarked that the gun in a mugger's pocket was also "not in use") :tape:

Even the non-political "Sir" Paul put this to music back in the 70s. And B4U ask, I don't want to expel anyone, those settlers who chose to remain can have the same rights as anyone else, including those in the EU and Council of Europe Charters. :angel: BTW, Julie Halard's country knew what to do with its so-called "royalty". :p

kaO4XeHhwo8

Calling the Protestants/Loyalists in Ireland "settlers" is silly. Most have been there for several generations at least.

Again, I support a united Ireland. If only to shut you up! ;)

But for the sake of the people of Britain and Ireland, it has to be done with some degree of consent. Otherwise there would be a bloodbath.

Stevecw
Sep 19th, 2011, 06:27 PM
Great to see McGuinness join the race. Finally have a candidate I will actually vote for. The rest are all the same, old former politicians who want one last big pay cheque.
Norris is a joke, and can't believe he is trying to get back into the race now. He hasn't a hope.
It gets worse, now i see Dana wants to join in! http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0919/president.html

Martin McGuinness will be my vote anyway, and talking to a few friends and workmates about it today most of them are gonna vote for him too.

Halardfan
Sep 19th, 2011, 07:15 PM
Presidential candidates usually have a skeleton or two in their closet, an affair here, a dodgy deal there.

Martin Mcguinness has a whole lot more in his past, he will have played a direct part in The terrorist bombings of shopping centres, pubs, parks...

It's an open goal to his political opponents. I can't see him winning.

Ferg
Sep 19th, 2011, 07:26 PM
Presidential candidates usually have a skeleton or two in their closet, an affair here, a dodgy deal there.

Martin Mcguinness has a whole lot more in his past, he will have played a direct part in The terrorist bombings of shopping centres, pubs, parks...

It's an open goal to his political opponents. I can't see him winning.

If the most popular candidate is forced out of the race because he wrote a letter pleading clemency for his former partner facing jail for having sex with a minor, they will have a field day with McGuiness.

KournikovaFan91
Sep 20th, 2011, 01:13 AM
Yeah but we all already know about McGuinness stuff. Its hardly going to be a surprise when we hear about it for the millionth time.

Also the Norris issue was clearly a gay thing, that was why people were out to get him unfortunately, I mean Gay Mitchell is going nowhere and has even worse issues in his past imho.

Halardfan
Sep 20th, 2011, 02:57 AM
Yeah but we all already know about McGuinness stuff. Its hardly going to be a surprise when we hear about it for the millionth time.

Also the Norris issue was clearly a gay thing, that was why people were out to get him unfortunately, I mean Gay Mitchell is going nowhere and has even worse issues in his past imho.

I dont think we do know all the horrific details of Mcguinness' past and you can bet his opponents will find grisly details of his acts of terror.

Whatever way we dress it up, he has done truly terrible things in his life, and explaining them and justifying them, will take an awful lot of doing.

KournikovaFan91
Sep 20th, 2011, 03:25 AM
There have been a ton of investigations by journalists, security services, rivals and the like into everyone in Northern Irish politics on both sides. I mean there are some things as yet unsolved or unexplained in the Northern Irish issue but most people I have spoken too in Northern Ireland are fed up with investigations and inquiries at this stage.

But of course the other candidates will now be obsessed with McGuinness and not any other candidate, and this obsession will only benefit him, at the end of the day he gets more attention because every candidate is out to get him. He will seem more like the anti-establishment candidate the more they all bash him together.

Also if the DUP have no issue working with McGuinness I don't see why southern politicians should get uppity about him. The hypocrisy of southern politicians who constantly bash SF and then tell unionists they should work with SF is quite ridiculous. :rolleyes:

*JR*
Sep 20th, 2011, 12:14 PM
I dont think we do know all the horrific details of Mcguinness' past and you can bet his opponents will find grisly details of his acts of terror. Whatever way we dress it up, he has done truly terrible things in his life, and explaining them and justifying them, will take an awful lot of doing.

What you buggers "conveniently ignore" is that if the Brits had ended their sovereignty ova the 6 northern counties in the late 1940's (when the locals threw your asses out of India and Palestine) :boxing: ppl like Martin and Gerry never would have emerged to try to finish what the original IRA started in the 1916 Easter Uprising. I'd have liked to have seen how tough those Unionist paramilitaries (like the UDF and UVF) would have been without "John Bull" on their side.

Halardfan
Sep 20th, 2011, 06:28 PM
What you buggers "conveniently ignore" is that if the Brits had ended their sovereignty ova the 6 northern counties in the late 1940's (when the locals threw your asses out of India and Palestine) :boxing: ppl like Martin and Gerry never would have emerged to try to finish what the original IRA started in the 1916 Easter Uprising. I'd have liked to have seen how tough those Unionist paramilitaries (like the UDF and UVF) would have been without "John Bull" on their side.

We could waste time speculating about the 1940's. Or you could face the reality of what happened in the real world.

You say that with 30 years of a brutal terror campaign there could have been no peace process. But again that is pure speculation.

Maybe there would have been a peace deal long before. Who knows.

You think if Mcguinness were standing in the coming elections in the US he'd have a chance? If not, why not?

Ferg
Sep 27th, 2011, 07:49 PM
Norris is in officially now and still winning the opinions polls... Whether people will vote for him when the time comes is a different matter. McGuiness seems to be behind Higgins too, a real gent for telling the Labour councillors to support Norris. He'll be my #2 after that.

Halardfan
Oct 28th, 2011, 08:04 AM
Sounds like it was a strange campaign, Mcguiness looks like he will do reasonably well...though I was pleased to see that relatives of IRA victims got some blows in on him.

KournikovaFan91
Oct 28th, 2011, 11:29 AM
Al Jazeera was right when it said he faced a hostile media, I mean the broadcasting authority are investigating the conduct of a RTE host during the debate in which she was clearly hostile towards him. :rolleyes:

Typical of RTÉ right wing agenda.

He probably had more celebrity endorsements than any other candidate which was pretty cool :p

But this result is still great for SF and the republican movement. I think Gallagher took some votes from McG around border areas. :mad:

Higgins will be an old fashioned president, if he leaves the Aras at all I'll be amazed. McG would have been a great step after McAleese imo, he slogan was Building Bridges and his election would have shown how people could cross those bridges to the presidency.

Ferg
Oct 28th, 2011, 03:12 PM
At least I wont have to emigrate, having that evil man as president would have been a disgrace. Hilarious to hear him say Gallagher is hiding things from the public whilst defending the murderers of Irish soldiers, gardai and of single mothers of 9.

*JR*
Oct 29th, 2011, 01:49 AM
Poor Martin McG only got 14% :awww: so the IRA I mean Sinn Fein :tape: has a lot of work to do if it wants to become @ least the official opposition in the Dail in 2016.

And this lovely :angel: voiced teen 1970 Eurovision winner received just 2%. :sobbing: JP 2 came back to life to comfort her. :hug:

yOnvZt1ktZw http://www.dana-music.com/uploaded/images/Dana%20Photos/denver%20%2793%20mid-res.jpg400x400.jpg

KournikovaFan91
Oct 29th, 2011, 03:30 AM
Looking at the map its clear that Gallagher took votes from McG in Cavan/Monaghan and Donegal. :rolleyes: People really got taken in by the de-facto FF candidate. I really question the intelligence of the average voter.

I hope MDH will retire in 7 years, I mean at his age I felt him totally inappropriate anyway but then he'll be 77 and another 7 years 84 :o Not far from Dev's record. Also he already looks close to 80 so god knows what he'll looking like when he is 77.

Ferg
Oct 30th, 2011, 12:55 PM
Turns out Sinn Fein made all that stuff about Gallagher collecting donations for FF up. Liars as well as murderers. lol. 250,000 total idiots in this country, its actually embarassing, SF stole the presidency from him. Hope people learn their lesson for listening to terrorists.

KournikovaFan91
Oct 31st, 2011, 05:17 AM
Morgan doesn't know now if it was Gallagher or Kirk who he gave to cheque to, that hardly means it didn't happen.

Around Dundalk at that time it was always well known that Gallagher was a FFer and hoping to run for the Dáil upon the retirement of Dermot Ahern however didn't after the attitude of the public towards FF turned sour.

He has always been well in with FF in Louth so any attempt for him to deny it is farcical.

SF were obviously going to target Gallagher since he was taking the border vote I don't think McG would have won without Gallagher but would have had substantially more 1st preference votes in the border region.

*JR*
Oct 31st, 2011, 01:45 PM
As Eamon De Valera was (an ethnically half-Irish) Spanish-American, maybe SF needs to bring in a former Noraid (http://www.noraid.com) leader like Martin Galvin from the US to end this BS and unite the 32 counties "by any means necessary". And B4 the Halard lover starts his usual "UK" propaganda, every Protestant is welcome to stay, as an Irish citizen with full rights (ala recent President Mary Robinson's husband).

KournikovaFan91
Oct 31st, 2011, 03:29 PM
Dev was our only Latino politician I believe :lol:

Halardfan
Nov 1st, 2011, 12:35 AM
As Eamon De Valera was (an ethnically half-Irish) Spanish-American, maybe SF needs to bring in a former Noraid (http://www.noraid.com) leader like Martin Galvin from the US to end this BS and unite the 32 counties "by any means necessary". And B4 the Halard lover starts his usual "UK" propaganda, every Protestant is welcome to stay, as an Irish citizen with full rights (ala recent President Mary Robinson's husband).

What means do you deem necessary? What do you have in mind? What support do you think there is for your position, which even Sinn Fein have long REJECTED? Essentially you want to impose your solution on everyone even though there is next to no support for it?

*JR*
Nov 1st, 2011, 01:00 AM
What means do you deem necessary? What do you have in mind?

That is purely up to the Irish, not to me.



What support do you think there is for your position, which even Sinn Fein have long REJECTED? Essentially you want to impose your solution on everyone even though there is next to no support for it?

You can't conclude that a majority in Ireland don't want sovereignty ova their entire country because they (tactically or strategically) accepted "half a loaf" in the Good Friday Accords from the occupying power.

By that logic, acquiescence with the conquerors anywhere by the indigenous population would necessarily be permanent (and the 1922 settlement the Bloody Brits forced on the Irish :fiery: never could have been modified by US mediator George Mitchell in 1998).

All I'm saying is that "interim concessions" (like the opponents of apartheid accepting the 1977 Sullivan Principles (http://muweb.marshall.edu/revleonsullivan/principled/principles.htm) until the system could be ovathrown) is a legitimate tactic for those seeking their freedom. :angel:

Halardfan
Nov 1st, 2011, 01:34 AM
That is purely up to the Irish, not to me.



You can't conclude that a majority in Ireland don't want sovereignty ova their entire country because they (tactically or strategically) accepted "half a loaf" in the Good Friday Accords from the occupying power.

By that logic, acquiescence with the conquerors anywhere by the indigenous population would necessarily be permanent (and the 1922 settlement the Bloody Brits forced on the Irish :fiery: never could have been modified by US mediator George Mitchell in 1998).

All I'm saying is that "interim concessions" (like the opponents of apartheid accepting the 1977 Sullivan Principles (http://muweb.marshall.edu/revleonsullivan/principled/principles.htm) until the system could be ovathrown) is a legitimate tactic for those seeking their freedom. :angel:

The notion that it's merely a matter for the people of Ireland and you have no view...I mean, really!

All major parties including Sinn Fein, are part of the peace process, which has led to Sinn Fein ministers in high positions in the Northern Ireland administration.

Here is what I want to know, once and for all...do you support Sinn Fein in their pursuit of a United Ireland by exclusively peaceful means?

Or do you support fringe fanatics with no support base, who reject the peace process, embrace bombs and bullets, and who view Sinn Fein as traitors???

Sometimes you seem to take both positions at once!

It's pathetic to try to paint me as someone parroting a Unionist line!!!!! I am in FAVOUR of a United Ireland, achieved by peaceful means and persuassion. Which is Sinn Fein policy!

*JR*
Nov 1st, 2011, 02:22 AM
Here is what I want to know, once and for all...do you support Sinn Fein in their pursuit of a United Ireland by exclusively peaceful means?

Or do you support fringe fanatics with no support base, who reject the peace process, embrace bombs and bullets, and who view Sinn Fein as traitors???

Sometimes you seem to take both positions at once!

Such duality is quite common for ppl seeking their liberation. Going back to the example of South Africa under apartheid, Archbishop Desmond Tutu won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1984 for his campaign of moral pressure, while groups like the ANC youth wing did all they could to make the status quo a living hell for the Afrikaaners.

Gentle persuasion without @ least the possibility of renewed violence being "in the back pocket" of the oppressed (as it surely is with Sinn Fein's presently dormant allies, the Provo's) is a very weak hand to play, in any dispute between groups; as your own Paddy Ashdown could tell you about the Bosnian Muslims (who finally forged an alliance with the Croats, and forced the Serbs to the Dayton Accords).

And plz remember what Gerry Adams has often said about the Good Friday Accords: that they're an agreement to "divorce when the kids have grown", meaning when even those 6 northeastern counties have clear Catholic majorities. (Currently about 47% and increasing). Do almost all the Catholics want to join an Irish Republic that's in a serious economic downturn? Of course not, but that situation will eventually change.

And just as the peaceful Martin Luther King was in a "relationship of mutual convenience" with 1960's black militants in the US (who made him seem reasonable by comparison to a critical swing group of open-minded whites) so Sinn Fein may find armed groups in the future, IF its participation in electoral politics doesn't yield tangible results. BTW, if you think the IRA turned in all of their weapons a decade ago, I'm the Emperor of your adopted homeland. ;)

Halardfan
Nov 1st, 2011, 02:55 AM
Such duality is quite common for ppl seeking their liberation. Going back to the example of South Africa under apartheid, Archbishop Desmond Tutu won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1984 for his campaign of moral pressure, while groups like the ANC youth wing did all they could to make the status quo a living hell for the Afrikaaners.

Gentle persuasion without @ least the possibility of renewed violence being "in the back pocket" of the oppressed (as it surely is with Sinn Fein's presently dormant allies, the Provo's) is a very weak hand to play, in any dispute between groups; as your own Paddy Ashdown could tell you about the Bosnian Muslims (who finally forged an alliance with the Croats, and forced the Serbs to the Dayton Accords).

And plz remember what Gerry Adams has often said about the Good Friday Accords: that they're an agreement to "divorce when the kids have grown", meaning when even those 6 northeastern counties have clear Catholic majorities. (Currently about 47% and increasing). Do almost all the Catholics want to join an Irish Republic that's in a serious economic downturn? Of course not, but that situation will eventually change.

And just as the peaceful Martin Luther King was in a "relationship of mutual convenience" with 1960's black militants in the US (who made him seem reasonable by comparison to a critical swing group of open-minded whites) so Sinn Fein may find armed groups in the future, IF its participation in electoral politics doesn't yield tangible results. BTW, if you think the IRA turned in all of their weapons a decade ago, I'm the Emperor of your adopted homeland. ;)

A problem with your flagging up the 47% Catholics in Northern Ireland number...a significant minority of them want to remain part of Britain...more than Protestants want to be part of Ireland. Meaning it's further than you expect. But as I say may the day soon come that there is a United Ireland. No more blood wasted, no more pounds wasted, no more blaming mainland Brits for what is fundamentally today a dispute between Northern Irish Catholics and Northern Irish Protestants. Which is what you never seem to get...mainland Britain, and the Irish Republic are today on the edges of things, the fire is between the people of Northern Ireland itself.