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Smitten
Aug 25th, 2011, 06:58 AM
Serena Williams against Jennifer Capriati.

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2002 Miami F. Jennifer is top seed and world #1 this week. As we know Serena beat the world's top three women's players in straight sets in succession to win the title. Those names being Hingis, V. Williams, and Capriati.

The rivalry had already begun to shift Serena's way with a victory in 2001 Toronto and beating Jennifer just a few weeks earlier in Scottsdale final.

This wasn't the prettiest match. Serena allegedly hit 59 unforced errors which is plausible given the circumstances.

Jennifer was playing in her second consecutive Miami F after choking eight, yes EIGHT, matchpoints to Venus the previous year.

This year she would serve for the first set at *5-4 30-30.
She would have double set point in the second set at 5-3* Williams serving 15-40.
She would serve for the second set at *5-4.
She would serve for the second set again at *6-5 and had seven set points before finally capitulating.

Serena won 7-5 7-6(4)

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A year later the tide had turned completely. Since their 2002 encounter Serena went on to beat Jennifer for the first time in a slam and obviously then went on to dominate the entire tour.

It was Serena who was world #1 and Jennifer was now the lower ranked opponent and the clear underdog.

I think 2002 was the better match for me, but 2003 shows the growth in Serena's game. How she took the second set from Jennifer at the end by being willing to rally with her and not be so impatient. The backhand dropshots were a treat, and several other aspects of her game had matured to a point that allowed to her sustain the strangehold on the tour.

Serena won 4-6 6-4 6-1

DOUBLEFIST
Aug 25th, 2011, 07:03 AM
Thanks for posting.

I miss JCap. She was a lot of fun! Infuriating, but fun.

Zhao
Aug 25th, 2011, 07:03 AM
Serena's dorminance began after beating Capriati in the Scottdale Open in 2002... i guess that win sparked off her potential completely..since then she has been completely :scared:

PLP
Aug 25th, 2011, 07:04 AM
Thx! I remember both of those matches, fun.

I loved the 2001 match against Venus even more.
:drool::drool::drool:

bandabou
Aug 25th, 2011, 07:24 AM
Great great rivalry....Serena had the master that riddle before she became Serena.

shoryuken
Aug 25th, 2011, 08:08 AM
She really made peakRena work.

melodynelson
Aug 25th, 2011, 09:28 AM
I enjoyed both HL reels, but I can't help but wonder why Capriati is such a raging, and always wrong, bitch about linecalls in literally every single match of hers I have EVER watched.

I wish Serena could have destroyed her more. Oh well, I'll take these soul-crushing tight losses too.

On the actual tennis, the HLs from the 2002 match are some of the best ballstriking off the backhand I've ever seen from Capriati. Serena's movement was just incredible, the way she could get to so many balls in that time period, 2001-2003 and hit amazing angles and acute DTL shots off of these impossible gets is just athleticism at its finest.

Stamp Paid
Aug 25th, 2011, 09:53 AM
20 year old Sarin :hearts: She moved so well.
And Capriati was infuriating. Seeing Henin's name in Serena's draw was annoying, but seeing Capriati in Serena's draw was :scared: And her being a raving bitch made it even worse.
I remember being literally furious when Sugiyama didnt beat her in the 2004 US Open 4R.

bandabou
Aug 25th, 2011, 10:39 AM
:lol: Watch those highlights...and people like dsanders wanna talk that Serena WASN'T a great mover back at her peak?! :lol:

vozas
Aug 25th, 2011, 10:46 AM
I never got Capriati's appeal. Her game was really uninteresting and her attitude unappealing. She was pretty much a buffer between the end of the Hingis era and the rise of Serena.

Alejandrawrrr
Aug 25th, 2011, 10:58 AM
JCap's theatrics when a call went against her were a little irksome, but even so, great matches. Poor Jen lost to the Williamses in three consecutive Miami finals from 2001-2003.

bandabou
Aug 25th, 2011, 11:08 AM
serena's movement was soooooooo :eek: back then. I mean how she chased those balls from corner to corner and then still come up with the goodies. :worship:

Lucemferre
Aug 25th, 2011, 11:54 AM
I've been looking for for these highlights my entire life. Thanks :worship:

Svetlana)))
Aug 25th, 2011, 11:57 AM
Even at 20, Kween Sarin's technique was flawless.

Smitten
Aug 25th, 2011, 02:36 PM
I never got Capriati's appeal. Her game was really uninteresting and her attitude unappealing. She was pretty much a buffer between the end of the Hingis era and the rise of Serena.

Jennifer had no true appeal other than being the most disgusting player ever to grace the WTA tour.

She had the ability to attack, but generally Capriati had very a large target area on her strokes. Her strokes had relative pace and depth but Capriati never really aimed to clean the lines. It was hard to beat her because she wasn't overtly pushing as to put the matches in her opponents hands but she wasn't dictating play either. Therefore you had to look to takeover the points while avoiding being too passive yourself or else her FH would strike.

She was a consummate counterpuncher and the player I think of most when the term is used.

2Black
Aug 25th, 2011, 02:39 PM
One of the greatest rivalries in history... Intense & always 3-setters

*JR*
Aug 25th, 2011, 02:40 PM
In Jen's defense re. 2002, Serena had an easy daytime SF against her sister, maybe with the understanding that if it was clear that one of them was much better that day, the other wouldn't wear her out for the Final. Whereas that night Jen had the Midnight Marathon in Miami vs. Monica, and couldn't have been as fresh by Saturday.

In term's of Jen's bitchiness, Richard and Oracene raised their daughters to have "lives beyond the tennis court" light years better than Stefano did with Jen. (Denise didn't play a major role). In other words, Daddy treating the young Jen like a cash machine resulted in her bringing in much less cash than either W/S did, as she missed most of the 90's. :shrug:

Shonami Slam
Aug 25th, 2011, 02:46 PM
this is why serena looks so bad right now.
she lacks competition.

Smitten
Aug 25th, 2011, 02:46 PM
In Jen's defense re. 2002, Serena had an easy daytime SF against her sister, maybe with the understanding that if it was clear that one of them was much better that day, the other wouldn't wear her out for the Final. Whereas that night Jen had the Midnight Marathon in Miami vs. Monica, and couldn't have been as fresh by Saturday.

In term's of Jen's bitchiness, Richard and Oracene raised their daughters to have "lives beyond the tennis court" light years better than Stefano did with Jen. (Denise didn't play a major role). In other words, Daddy treating the young Jen like a cash machine resulted in her bringing in much less cash than either W/S did, as she missed most of the 90's. :shrug:

It's true. Stefano always put a heavy burden on Jennifer even since juniors and Nick Bollettieri days when she was the emerging upstar along with Mary Pierce. The tension between Stefano/Jennifer and Jim/Mary is the reason why Pierce changed her nationality to France at the infant stages of her career.

tennisbum79
Aug 25th, 2011, 02:48 PM
Thanks for posting.

I miss JCap. She was a lot of fun! Infuriating, but fun.
I too, miss Capriati.

You can only find characters like these 2 in boxing.
Build-up leading up t their matches , instant dislike for each other, bring the best out of each other.

tennisbum79
Aug 25th, 2011, 02:54 PM
this is why serena looks so bad right now.
she lacks competition.
No she looks bad, because she was out, not for of rivals.

Mind you, Jen was not her only rival, at different times, it was her sister, Davenport, Hingis, then Henin, Dementieva and others.

How many rival did the likes of Martina Nav, Graf and Evert had throughout their careers, 2 or 3 may be?

2Black
Aug 25th, 2011, 02:54 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol: I just watched the 2002 highlights. It's amazing how Jenifer thought that ball was "so far out" but mysteriously didn't see Serena's ball in at the 2004 US Open. Capriati is str8 gangsta :lol:

silverwhite
Aug 25th, 2011, 02:55 PM
In Jen's defense re. 2002, Serena had an easy daytime SF against her sister, maybe with the understanding that if it was clear that one of them was much better that day, the other wouldn't wear her out for the Final. Whereas that night Jen had the Midnight Marathon in Miami vs. Monica, and couldn't have been as fresh by Saturday.

In term's of Jen's bitchiness, Richard and Oracene raised their daughters to have "lives beyond the tennis court" light years better than Stefano did with Jen. (Denise didn't play a major role). In other words, Daddy treating the young Jen like a cash machine resulted in her bringing in much less cash than either W/S did, as she missed most of the 90's. :shrug:

:weirdo:

Svetlana)))
Aug 25th, 2011, 02:56 PM
Jennifer had no true appeal other than being the most disgusting player ever to grace the WTA tour.

She had the ability to attack, but generally Capriati had very a large target area on her strokes. Her strokes had relative pace and depth but Capriati never really aimed to clean the lines. It was hard to beat her because she wasn't overtly pushing as to put the matches in her opponents hands but she wasn't dictating play either. Therefore you had to look to takeover the points while avoiding being too passive yourself or else her FH would strike.

She was a consummate counterpuncher and the player I think of most when the term is used.

QFT.

tennisbum79
Aug 25th, 2011, 02:56 PM
In Jen's defense re. 2002, Serena had an easy daytime SF against her sister, maybe with the understanding that if it was clear that one of them was much better that day, the other wouldn't wear her out for the Final. Whereas that night Jen had the Midnight Marathon in Miami vs. Monica, and couldn't have been as fresh by Saturday.

In term's of Jen's bitchiness, Richard and Oracene raised their daughters to have "lives beyond the tennis court" light years better than Stefano did with Jen. (Denise didn't play a major role). In other words, Daddy treating the young Jen like a cash machine resulted in her bringing in much less cash than either W/S did, as she missed most of the 90's. :shrug:
Not the match fixing allegation again

silverwhite
Aug 25th, 2011, 02:59 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol: I just watched the 2002 highlights. It's amazing how Jenifer thought that ball was "so far out" but mysteriously didn't see Serena's ball in at the 2004 US Open. Capriati is str8 gangsta :lol:

Maybe she just has bad eyesight. Remember AO 03? :o

tennisbum79
Aug 25th, 2011, 03:00 PM
Jennifer had no true appeal other than being the most disgusting player ever to grace the WTA tour.

She had the ability to attack, but generally Capriati had very a large target area on her strokes. Her strokes had relative pace and depth but Capriati never really aimed to clean the lines. It was hard to beat her because she wasn't overtly pushing as to put the matches in her opponents hands but she wasn't dictating play either. Therefore you had to look to takeover the points while avoiding being too passive yourself or else her FH would strike.

She was a consummate counterpuncher and the player I think of most when the term is used.
We are talking about her tennis and how she matched up with Serena, not her personal appeal.

And she did brought a lot to the WTA tour, contrary to your statement.

Smitten
Aug 25th, 2011, 03:10 PM
Mind you, Jen was not her only rival, at different times, it was her sister, Davenport, Hingis, then Henin, Dementieva and others.


Davenport was never a rival to Serena Williams at any stage of her career.

Anyway, Jennifer's game is unappealing even at its peak. Furthermore, as time went on Capriati got increasingly more tentative and more passive with her groundstrokes. Watching her lose that match against Dementieva at the 2004 USO was everything that needed to be said about the devolution of her game.

vozas
Aug 25th, 2011, 03:10 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol: I just watched the 2002 highlights. It's amazing how Jenifer thought that ball was "so far out" but mysteriously didn't see Serena's ball in at the 2004 US Open. Capriati is str8 gangsta :lol:

Right? One of the most bitter players in WTA history. Fluke slams if you ask me. Wingis had no business losing them, especially the 2001 one.

Zhao
Aug 25th, 2011, 03:23 PM
Jenn's forehand in 2004 was nowhere her 2001-2002 standard... she could have accomplished so much more... just unlucky her peak coincide with William sisters peak which is in 2002

ptkten
Aug 25th, 2011, 03:34 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol: I just watched the 2002 highlights. It's amazing how Jenifer thought that ball was "so far out" but mysteriously didn't see Serena's ball in at the 2004 US Open. Capriati is str8 gangsta :lol:

:lol:
Capriati was such a drama queen. I just watched the highlights of her match against Justine in 2003 U.S. Open and she bitched and complained about at least 5 line calls and was wrong on every single one. She just did it to get the crowd on her side and influence line judges in U.S. matches and the crowd always fell for it. The one good thing you can say about Jennifer is that at least she was always interesting.

Shonami Slam
Aug 25th, 2011, 03:55 PM
No she looks bad, because she was out, not for of rivals.

Mind you, Jen was not her only rival, at different times, it was her sister, Davenport, Hingis, then Henin, Dementieva and others.

How many rival did the likes of Martina Nav, Graf and Evert had throughout their careers, 2 or 3 may be?

Jen couldn't really have taken much from both WS, honestly. i would call her a ligitimate contender, but like Sabatini, Martinez or Kuznetsova - she should have been no more than a nice second row in the all time show.
davenport had more of a chance and game to win big, if anything IMO.
as for Hingis and Henin - they did keep Serena looking powerful and strong. flip it to her latter part of the career and plenty of players can outhit on a good day, ballbashing and hoping.
Serena and Venus ripped through a finnesse era that turned itself into what we know today - hopeless hitting, or endless runners.

spencercarlos
Aug 25th, 2011, 04:26 PM
Serena's dorminance began after beating Capriati in the Scottdale Open in 2002... i guess that win sparked off her potential completely..since then she has been completely :scared:
I Think Serena became a complete different player when she beat Seles in Toronto 2001 after 6 match points saved by Monica. The week prior Seles beat Serena saving match points in LA.

Then in the final vs Capriati, Serena yet again choked a second set lead int he final but held composure in the third set after trailing 1-3... That put things in perspective. She played so dominant after that, and reached the Usopen 2001 final on even better form than Venus before losing.. But i guess she realized what she was capable of.

What a turn around, nowadays Serena has been known for being a mental gigant, when in her early years up until 2001 she would lose matches that she was winning left and right.

tennisbum79
Aug 25th, 2011, 04:46 PM
Jen couldn't really have taken much from both WS, honestly. i would call her a ligitimate contender, but like Sabatini, Martinez or Kuznetsova - she should have been no more than a nice second row in the all time show.
davenport had more of a chance and game to win big, if anything IMO.
as for Hingis and Henin - they did keep Serena looking powerful and strong. flip it to her latter part of the career and plenty of players can outhit on a good day, ballbashing and hoping.
Serena and Venus ripped through a finnesse era that turned itself into what we know today - hopeless hitting, or endless runners.

Actually, Seles pioneered the hard hitting era, for her it was pure instinct and gift.
She could only be challenged by Graf because, unlike many of her contemporaries, Graf had already put emphasis on fitness.
Young Capriati could also challenge Seles in the hitting department.

Now fast-forward to Venus-Serena era.
What they brought, is fitness, and you're right about that.
But this was to complement the hard hitting, making it possible for 2nd and lower tier players to hit the ball hard if they wish to do so.

Contrast this to Seles/Graf, only these 2 could match each other speed and powers, the other women never bother take the challenge.
Had Henin been part of that crop of players, she would never have been able to become the player she is today.


It seems to me in that era, you just stayed within your natural talent paramters, you only use what god dealt you.
Yes, Martina embarked on a nutrition and fitness program, but that was an anomaly.



Frankly, I am glad we left behind that Tracy Austin era of laced, fluffy under garment, designed by men, complemented by on court loopy and moon-balling.

It is not only in women tennis that athleticism has been playing an important part of the sport.
Name any women sport, fitness and athleticism is now part of the main stay.


Basketball, volleyball, soccer, track & field ( short distances and mid-distance especially), gymnastic all have a fitness dimension.
Tennis is just part of trend, but the long tennis tradition of leisurely clad women in long flowing skirts or robes is missed by some.

BTW, as side note.
Had women tennis been stuck in that era, they would have had hard time making the case for equal pay at GS.

frenchie
Aug 25th, 2011, 04:48 PM
RIP Serena's speed.

*JR*
Aug 25th, 2011, 04:54 PM
Not the match fixing allegation again

Nope. Just (when meeting in a non-final) an understanding, maybe not even spoken, that if it was clear that one was better in that match, the other wouldn't make it a war of attrition.

And for all I know, this kind of happens when close friends meet in lets say a SF with the other finalist (or both possibilities, if that SF is later) being a player they don't like so much.


BTW, to silverwhite: you didn't have the courtesy to even ask, but jumped to a conclusion with a :weirdo: smilie. All I said was that its natural for sisters (inc. the Maleevas, Bondarenkos, Radwanskas, etc.) to do this.

I'm so sick of this paranoia that if anyone says anything implying that the W/S (who I clearly complimented in the post you quoted, you fucking moron) :spit: may act like anyone else in that situation they must be a hater, I could scream. :rolleyes:

dybbuk
Aug 25th, 2011, 05:04 PM
The 2003 crowd was one one of the loudest, most disrespectful crowds I can remember. There were so many points with yelling or talking in the middle of rallies.

Lol at Capriati getting on her knees and begging for a call at one point. :sobbing: She was such a lunatic.

bandabou
Aug 25th, 2011, 05:21 PM
I Think Serena became a complete different player when she beat Seles in Toronto 2001 after 6 match points saved by Monica. The week prior Seles beat Serena saving match points in LA.

Then in the final vs Capriati, Serena yet again choked a second set lead int he final but held composure in the third set after trailing 1-3... That put things in perspective. She played so dominant after that, and reached the Usopen 2001 final on even better form than Venus before losing.. But i guess she realized what she was capable of.

What a turn around, nowadays Serena has been known for being a mental gigant, when in her early years up until 2001 she would lose matches that she was winning left and right.

Indeed....Serena in her earlier days, the pressure got to her sometimes. '01 Wimbledon QF, '01 u.s. open QF...Serena is better at rallying than closing out seems. But she turned it around in excellent way.

Shonami Slam
Aug 25th, 2011, 05:31 PM
Actually, Seles pioneered the hard hitting era, for her it was pure instinct and gift.
She could only be challenged by Graf because, unlike many of her contemporaries, Graf had already put emphasis on fitness.
Young Capriati could also challenge Seles in the hitting department.

Now fast-forward to Venus-Serena era.
What they brought, is fitness, and you're right about that.
But this was to complement the hard hitting, making it possible for 2nd and lower tier players to hit the ball hard if they wish to do so.

Contrast this to Seles/Graf, only these 2 could match each other speed and powers, the other women never bother take the challenge.
Had Henin been part of that crop of players, she would never have been able to become the player she is today.


It seems to me in that era, you just stayed within your natural talent paramters, you only use what god dealt you.
Yes, Martina embarked on a nutrition and fitness program, but that was an anomaly.



Frankly, I am glad we left behind that Tracy Austin era of laced, fluffy under garment, designed by men, complemented by on court loopy and moon-balling.

It is not in women tennis that athleticism has been playing an important part of the sport.
Name any women sport, fitness and athleticism is now part of the main stay.


Basketball, volleyball, soccer, track & field ( short distances and mid-distance especially), gymnastic all have a fitness dimension.
Tennis is just part of trend, but the long tennis tradition of leisurely clad women in long flowing skirts or robes is missed by some.

BTW, as side note.
Had women tennis been stuck in that era, they would have had hard time making the case for equal pay at GS.

agreed on most points. one could claim many classic europeans (french, spaniards, italians) that are running out of the wta are the last of the natural talented players, all others really are working in the gym at least as much as they are on courts causing them to be that much less tennis players, and more athletes, hence how could they ever be all-court players :rolleyes:
raquet technology of course adds more since the earlier days, but even Graf would have transitioned to more topspin, had she played nowadays, i would think.

i still think that seles' addition was the angles (due to that double hander) moreso than her sheer power. in the later parts of her career, she had problems against many weaker opponents that could run - while you would think she shouldve blasted them off court.
chanda rubin, for example, would have been in the top3 these days, when looking at players like zvonareva (whom i love, btw).

it seems like the serving bit is still midiocre with all girls, and is probably going to be the key for our next great champion.
so we still have to wait, because DF is still more popular than easy serve points.
btw - i would expect to see more and more one slam wonders in the upcoming years.

watching some older matches - they did puff the ball quite alot. who knows, maybe camille pin would have been a mutliple GS champ, seeing that she gave former world number 1s (sharapova mostly :lol: ) so much problems.

i would say that serena and venus brought the tour 3 steps forward, and now the addaptation is finally showing in the form of easrly retirements, injuries and the absolutation of hardcourts as the sole surface worth learning to play on.

Shonami Slam
Aug 25th, 2011, 05:33 PM
Nope. Just (when meeting in a non-final) an understanding, maybe not even spoken, that if it was clear that one was better in that match, the other wouldn't make it a war of attrition.

And for all I know, this kind of happens when close friends meet in lets say a SF with the other finalist (or both possibilities, if that SF is later) being a player they don't like so much.


BTW, to silverwhite: you didn't have the courtesy to even ask, but jumped to a conclusion with a :weirdo: smilie. All I said was that its natural for sisters (inc. the Maleevas, Bondarenkos, Radwanskas, etc.) to do this.

I'm so sick of this paranoia that if anyone says anything implying that the W/S (who I clearly complimented in the post you quoted, you fucking moron) :spit: may act like anyone else in that situation they must be a hater, I could scream. :rolleyes:

the maleevas were far from close.
they weren't too competitive against each other either, but mostly - they sucked against graf

serenafan08
Aug 25th, 2011, 05:43 PM
Ahhh...the matches with JCap. :drool: Jennifer was the one player that would make me nervous when she played Serena. So much drama and tension between them, hence most of their matches were fiercely contested and great! 12 of the 17 went 3 sets; the 2002 final was one of the 5 that didn't. Serena won 3 of those other 5 btw. :lol:

melodynelson
Aug 25th, 2011, 05:55 PM
Until Serena came back from injury in 2004 and ruined that long streak of beating Capriati, Serena won literally all of their important matches aside from the 2001 Wimbledon QF. Yeah, she beat Serena twice at Miami, not an easy feat, but it's Miami. As well she won eight in a row of the ten she did win, so it was like Capriati beat her in some TI QF or SF or didn't beat her at all. Why would Serena fans be so nervous? Chances are she was going to win.

Capriati was obviously a threat, but all of her most relevant wins over Serena came at perfect timing for Jennifer. But I guess if you have to pick a real rival for Serena, and with the only real options being her sister, Justine and Capriati, I guess Capriati is the best fit, although Justine leads Serena in slam H2H and Venus did beat Serena in a couple slam finals, something Capriati never did.

serenafan08
Aug 25th, 2011, 06:04 PM
Until Serena came back from injury in 2004 and ruined that long streak of beating Capriati, Serena won literally all of their important matches aside from the 2001 Wimbledon QF. Yeah, she beat Serena twice at Miami, not an easy feat, but it's Miami. As well she won eight in a row of the ten she did win, so it was like Capriati beat her in some TI QF or SF or didn't beat her at all. Why would Serena fans be so nervous? Chances are she was going to win.

Capriati was obviously a threat, but all of her most relevant wins over Serena came at perfect timing for Jennifer. But I guess if you have to pick a real rival for Serena, and with the only real options being her sister, Justine and Capriati, I guess Capriati is the best fit, although Justine leads Serena in slam H2H and Venus did beat Serena in a couple slam finals, something Capriati never did.

:secret: Jennifer leads their Slam h2h too.

melodynelson
Aug 25th, 2011, 06:10 PM
:secret: Jennifer leads their Slam h2h too.

I even specified until 2004, at which point it was 2-2. Even if 2004 is included we all know that has a major asterik next to it concerning the US Open match. :shrug: Serena was literally robbed of a game's worth of points, not even mentioning the fact several were on BPs or ads to Serena. At least in the Wimbledon match where Justine beat Serena she wasn't so blatantly cheated, only by her own physical state.

And considering the game Capriati had, I specified Wimbledon 2001 because that's just a disgrace, to lose to someone like Capriati when you're Serena on grass. The French Open result a month prior isn't that surprising.

BuTtErFrEnA
Aug 25th, 2011, 06:22 PM
In Jen's defense re. 2002, Serena had an easy daytime SF against her sister, maybe with the understanding that if it was clear that one of them was much better that day, the other wouldn't wear her out for the Final. Whereas that night Jen had the Midnight Marathon in Miami vs. Monica, and couldn't have been as fresh by Saturday.

In term's of Jen's bitchiness, Richard and Oracene raised their daughters to have "lives beyond the tennis court" light years better than Stefano did with Jen. (Denise didn't play a major role). In other words, Daddy treating the young Jen like a cash machine resulted in her bringing in much less cash than either W/S did, as she missed most of the 90's. :shrug:

what? :weirdo:

danieln1
Aug 25th, 2011, 06:25 PM
Thanks for the videos!!! :yeah:

2002 match was so great, both of them literally red hot!

silverwhite
Aug 25th, 2011, 06:33 PM
Nope. Just (when meeting in a non-final) an understanding, maybe not even spoken, that if it was clear that one was better in that match, the other wouldn't make it a war of attrition.

And for all I know, this kind of happens when close friends meet in lets say a SF with the other finalist (or both possibilities, if that SF is later) being a player they don't like so much.


BTW, to silverwhite: you didn't have the courtesy to even ask, but jumped to a conclusion with a :weirdo: smilie. All I said was that its natural for sisters (inc. the Maleevas, Bondarenkos, Radwanskas, etc.) to do this.

I'm so sick of this paranoia that if anyone says anything implying that the W/S (who I clearly complimented in the post you quoted, you fucking moron) :spit: may act like anyone else in that situation they must be a hater, I could scream. :rolleyes:

You need to re-read your post again, dear: http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost.php?p=20117764&postcount=17

You could very well have made your point without including that phrase.

"In Jen's defense re. 2002, Serena had an easy daytime SF against her sister whereas that night Jen had the Midnight Marathon in Miami vs. Monica, and couldn't have been as fresh by Saturday."

See? It could have been done :wavey: That you added that phrase was just a coincidence or a sidenote, was it?

And no, nowhere did you mention other groups of sisters. Even if you had, it's a serious sportsmanship issue and not as trivial as you made it out to be ("like anyone else in that situation").

P.S. Who cares that you complimented them? Doesn't make that other phrase any less of an insult. Apparently, you think that a compliment erases an insult. Now that is moronic (to borrow a word that you used).

tennisbum79
Aug 25th, 2011, 06:35 PM
Nope. Just (when meeting in a non-final) an understanding, maybe not even spoken, that if it was clear that one was better in that match, the other wouldn't make it a war of attrition.

And for all I know, this kind of happens when close friends meet in lets say a SF with the other finalist (or both possibilities, if that SF is later) being a player they don't like so much.


BTW, to silverwhite: you didn't have the courtesy to even ask, but jumped to a conclusion with a :weirdo: smilie. All I said was that its natural for sisters (inc. the Maleevas, Bondarenkos, Radwanskas, etc.) to do this.

I'm so sick of this paranoia that if anyone says anything implying that the W/S (who I clearly complimented in the post you quoted, you fucking moron) :spit: may act like anyone else in that situation they must be a hater, I could scream. :rolleyes:
You can call me all the names in the book.

There is no doubt in the mind any tennis fans, including those on this board, when you casually made that statement, the allegations match fixing cross the mind.
Why? because those were prevalent at that time. Among tennis commentators on TV, sport writers, then picked up by Venus and Serena colleagues at press conferences.


There was no such charge I know of that was ever leveled against the Mallevas, the Bodrenkos, Rawasnkas, Clijsters.


And I am not saying because you brought this up, you are automatically a hater. In fact I tried to stay away from that language as much as I can.


Last, but no least, I have read enough of your posts over the years, to ever think of you as a "hater".
I just think you'd like to take unusual positions, I would necessarily not characterize as sticking up for the underdog; rather you prefer to stir up the pot rather than go for orthodoxy.... more so in political discussion than tennis.


I strongly believe your statement here was misguided and unfortunate.

Diesel
Aug 25th, 2011, 06:35 PM
I never got Capriati's appeal. Her game was really uninteresting and her attitude unappealing. She was pretty much a buffer between the end of the Hingis era and the rise of Serena.

Jen was an All-American girl.

tennisbum79
Aug 25th, 2011, 06:53 PM
i still think that seles' addition was the angles (due to that double hander) moreso than her sheer power. in the later parts of her career, she had problems against many weaker opponents that could run - while you would think she shouldve blasted them off court.
You are absolutely right about that, hower power gave effectiveness to the angles
To this day, nobody has been able to replicate. Bartoli tries



it seems like the serving bit is still midiocre with all girls, and is probably going to be the key for our next great champion.
so we still have to wait, because DF is still more popular than easy serve points.
btw - i would expect to see more and more one slam wonders in the upcoming years.It is hard to say, because in the era of Martina/Evert/Graf, the serve and ROS of were not really a weapon.
The serve was simply used to put the ball in play, contention to win the point started in rallies, never on server or return of server.

Today, you can't just spin the serve in and expect to get in a rally.
Imagine returners like Maria, Serena, Davenport, Venus, Henin, Clijsters, Capriati and even Azaenka, Rezai, Ana, Kuztetsova , Stosur on the other side of those puffy serves

They ONLY had to worry about Graf and Seles as dangerous returners

*JR*
Aug 25th, 2011, 08:42 PM
You can call me all the names in the book.

There is no doubt in the mind any tennis fans, including those on this board, when you casually made of that, the allegations match fixing cross the mind.

Why? because those were prevalent at that time. Among tennis commentators on TV, sport writers, then picked by Venus and Serena colleagues at press conferences.

I called you NO names, silverwhite was the one I called a fucking moron. In terms of any commentators talking about fixed matches, they don't speak for me. In fact there was little incentive for Richard, etc. to care which one of them won a given Slam final, as both were marquee players already. And I couldn't give a FF what so-called journalists hold the W/S to a higher standard regarding gamesmanship, I don't. They're both great players who have careers 2B proud of.

DOUBLEFIST
Aug 25th, 2011, 08:55 PM
20 year old Sarin :hearts: She moved so well.
And Capriati was infuriating. Seeing Henin's name in Serena's draw was annoying, but seeing Capriati in Serena's draw was :scared: And her being a raving bitch made it even worse.
I remember being literally furious when Sugiyama didnt beat her in the 2004 US Open 4R.
Ha! So true!! Whenever JCap loomed in the draw you knew it was gonna be WAR! Someone was comin' away bloodied and there would be some trash talkin'. :lol:

:lol: Watch those highlights...and people like dsanders wanna talk that Serena WASN'T a great mover back at her peak?! :lol:

Exactly - which is why I know he wasn't really watchin' tennis then or is on some serious Orwell, re-invent history to control perceptions of the present trip. :lol:
Jenn's forehand in 2004 was nowhere her 2001-2002 standard... she could have accomplished so much more... just unlucky her peak coincide with William sisters peak which is in 2002

Yep. It's too bad. I really liked JCap - her style of play and general grumpiness :lol: . Didn't like the JCRAP she talked about the sisters, but hey, it was understandable. They stood in her way and vice versa. I just wish she could have found her way during the years that Hingis ended up dominating. I really believe that was her time. If she had, I think she would have 6 or 7 slams for sure.

...What a turn around, nowadays Serena has been known for being a mental gigant, when in her early years up until 2001 she would lose matches that she was winning left and right.
Exactly. And I think that's the corner that every superstar in the game has to figure how to turn - how to up your level on the BIG points and close in crunch time. I remember very distinctly that that was the book on Henin initially - all the talent but just couldn't close the deal and would choke. Clijsters too. The great ones figure their way through this period. Others seem to come right to the threshold of it and then don't step through, Zvonereva, Dementieva, Safina (don't mean to pick on the Russians, just seems to be the way it is), etc, etc.

The outliers for me in this are Venus and Sharapova for different reasons. The extraordinary thing about Maria is that she didn't seem to suffer from that fear of the big moment. She threw the door open and joined the party. Venus had to figure it out like most great champions, but hasn't held on to it and again struggles with big moments. Of course, with her there were/are other factors - peak coinciding with Serena's, questionable technique, and now (perhaps) diminishing physical tools.

Anyway, so nice to look back on two great champions and rivals at the height of their powers during one of the strongest periods women's tennis has ever seen.

BartoLiNa
Aug 25th, 2011, 09:23 PM
Capriati was a total cow. I'm pleased to see karma got her.

:lol: Watch those highlights...and people like dsanders wanna talk that Serena WASN'T a great mover back at her peak?! :lol:

IKR :lol:

GAGAlady
Aug 25th, 2011, 09:50 PM
Jennifer had no true appeal other than being the most disgusting player ever to grace the WTA tour.
She had the ability to attack, but generally Capriati had very a large target area on her strokes. Her strokes had relative pace and depth but Capriati never really aimed to clean the lines. It was hard to beat her because she wasn't overtly pushing as to put the matches in her opponents hands but she wasn't dictating play either. Therefore you had to look to takeover the points while avoiding being too passive yourself or else her FH would strike.

She was a consummate counterpuncher and the player I think of most when the term is used.

thats pretty harsh statement to make.

Not only do you not know Jennifer but to make such a disgusting remark about an individual on how they played in the heat of a match? Why dont you try playing for money on the line and everything you ever dreamed about or cared for in the world was at stake? You may be a little bitchy too. Not everyone is perfet or acts perfect.

Everyone has good and bad days. Does not make them disgusting. It makes them HUMAN. asshole.:rolleyes:

GAGAlady
Aug 25th, 2011, 09:55 PM
I even specified until 2004, at which point it was 2-2. Even if 2004 is included we all know that has a major asterik next to it concerning the US Open match. :shrug: Serena was literally robbed of a game's worth of points, not even mentioning the fact several were on BPs or ads to Serena. At least in the Wimbledon match where Justine beat Serena she wasn't so blatantly cheated, only by her own physical state.

And considering the game Capriati had, I specified Wimbledon 2001 because that's just a disgrace, to lose to someone like Capriati when you're Serena on grass. The French Open result a month prior isn't that surprising.

Serena was not the same grass court player in 2001...which is a reason she lost to Jenn that day.