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JJ all the way
Aug 23rd, 2011, 03:29 PM
Now that the US Open is approaching us, people are naming their favorites and Pova is definitely up there. That made me want to watch some of her classics:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eAb36h5Rbc
AO 2008 v Henin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUtSK19Wyxo
2008 Ao v. Davenport

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIUQNTqNctU
USO 2006 v. Henin

Watching these matches, I realized how amazing Pova was back then. There was a sense of reliability with her shots, her serve, an ultimately her winning big matches. Pre-shoulder injury Pova would have owned Petkovic, Kvitova, Wozniaki, Li Na and Azarenka in my opinion. Now, she is completely relying on her mental fortitude to win matches.

Will pre-shoulder injury Pova ever be back?

Just Do It
Aug 23rd, 2011, 03:35 PM
Maria's AO 2008 win was spectacular, doubt she will ever repeat something like that ...

@little levity
Aug 23rd, 2011, 03:36 PM
Now that the US Open is approaching us, people are naming their favorites and Pova is definitely up there. That made me want to watch some of her classics:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eAb36h5Rbc
AO 2008 v Henin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUtSK19Wyxo
2008 Ao v. Davenport

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIUQNTqNctU
USO 2006 v. Henin

Watching these matches, I realized how amazing Pova was back then. There was a sense of reliability with her shots, her serve, an ultimately her winning big matches. Pre-shoulder injury Pova would have owned Petkovic, Kvitova, Wozniaki, Li Na and Azarenka in my opinion. Now, she is completely relying on her mental fortitude to win matches.

Will pre-shoulder injury Pova ever be back?

Sadly no. :sad:

For me Maria is more than tennis, she's an inspiration.

hablo
Aug 23rd, 2011, 03:37 PM
I don't ... :lol:

AO 2007 was memorable! :devil:

Galang
Aug 23rd, 2011, 03:39 PM
So do most people.

Luckily for her the tour is weaker now than 2004-2007, so she is still able to achieve quite a bit of success with a poorer game.

FleetSeb
Aug 23rd, 2011, 03:39 PM
She would definitely have owned any of the current top 10 bar Kim. I still feel she would have always struggled with Serena and it would have been a pretty even contest with Kim I reckon. But them aside she would have easily dealt with most of the players that have come through the ranks since her injury.

Mightymirza
Aug 23rd, 2011, 03:39 PM
Masha 2008 was already after shoulder injury isnt it? Before the surgery but she already had problems..

Raiden
Aug 23rd, 2011, 03:46 PM
Whaaat? LMAO

Multiples of years have passed now and she has moved on and has even become relevant again on the tour (despite ALL her past problems and setbacks).

In other words, quit this shoulder talk... it's getting beyond petty now.

Pulling this excuse out of your ass every-time Maria is a topic of discussion is making the whole issue look lamer and faker by the day

Now I'm beginning to doubt whether her shoulder injury was as bad as I used to think :lol:

Mr.Sharapova
Aug 23rd, 2011, 03:48 PM
Hopefully she's return to that kind of form in no time :yeah:.

Maria's AO 2008 performances were breath taking :worship:.

hablo
Aug 23rd, 2011, 03:48 PM
Masha 2008 was already after shoulder injury isnt it? Before the surgery but she already had problems..

I think so...

TheBoiledEgg
Aug 23rd, 2011, 03:50 PM
Masha 2008 was already after shoulder injury isnt it? Before the surgery but she already had problems..

no she had her problems a bit later in 2008. was around Miami time

hablo
Aug 23rd, 2011, 03:51 PM
no she had her problems a bit later in 2008. was around Miami time

So what was the reason for the AO2007 debacle?

TheBoiledEgg
Aug 23rd, 2011, 03:53 PM
So what was the reason for the AO2007 debacle?

Serena was

@little levity
Aug 23rd, 2011, 03:53 PM
Whaaat? LMAO

Multiples of years have passed now and she has moved on and has even become relevant again on the tour (despite ALL her past problems and setbacks).

In other words, quit this shoulder talk... it's getting beyond petty now.

Pulling this excuse out of your ass every-time Maria is a topic of discussion is making the whole issue look lamer and faker by the day

Now I'm beginning to doubt whether her shoulder injury was as bad as I used to think :lol:

I swear, when I read this post I can hear the voice of Alan Rickman.

VishaalMaria
Aug 23rd, 2011, 03:53 PM
So what was the reason for the AO2007 debacle?

Serena Williams

moemoe
Aug 23rd, 2011, 03:53 PM
I know that pova a lot I always watch her old m atches. They just make me so excited I can't stand it. She would have definitely destroyed Woz with that form. (Even though I like to watch Wozniacki play)

madmax
Aug 23rd, 2011, 03:53 PM
no she had her problems a bit later in 2008. was around Miami time

she pretty much won AO 08' on cortizone shots...she was fighting pain already back in 2007

serenafan08
Aug 23rd, 2011, 03:56 PM
Masha 2008 was already after shoulder injury isnt it? Before the surgery but she already had problems..

No...no one has ever been able to explain this. Her shoulder was hurt in '07, so that's why Serena/Venus/Ivanovic destroyed her in the Slams. Then miraculously it healed itself enough for her to win the Aussie Open in '08, but then right after that she hurt it again and that's why she struggled for 3 years. All we've heard is it's the shoulder, it's the shoulder, it's the shoulder. No it's not. I've said it a thousand times, and I'll say it a million more. This is all in Maria's head. Nothing to do with physical...it's all psychological. She isn't as mentally strong as she's portrayed to be; did you see how frustrated she got against Jankovic? A mentally strong Maria would have DESTROYED Jankovic...Jelena had no pace or punch behind her shots. She was trying to hit the ball hard but it wasn't going anywhere, yet Maria still couldn't do anything with it. When Maria gets over the mental block in her game, wherever it came from, she'll return to form.

hablo
Aug 23rd, 2011, 03:59 PM
Serena was

Serena Williams
I only ask because I recall some of Sharpie fans were claiming her injury had already started them. Right on cue, see madmax's post below. :tape:

she pretty much won AO 08' on cortizone shots...she was fighting pain already back in 2007

No...no one has ever been able to explain this. Her shoulder was hurt in '07, so that's why Serena/Venus/Ivanovic destroyed her in the Slams. Then miraculously it healed itself enough for her to win the Aussie Open in '08, but then right after that she hurt it again and that's why she struggled for 3 years. All we've heard is it's the shoulder, it's the shoulder, it's the shoulder. No it's not. I've said it a thousand times, and I'll say it a million more. This is all in Maria's head. Nothing to do with physical...it's all psychological. She isn't as mentally strong as she's portrayed to be; did you see how frustrated she got against Jankovic? A mentally strong Maria would have DESTROYED Jankovic...Jelena had no pace or punch behind her shots. She was trying to hit the ball hard but it wasn't going anywhere, yet Maria still couldn't do anything with it. When Maria gets over the mental block in her game, wherever it came from, she'll return to form.
I see you recall the same thing. :lol:

VishaalMaria
Aug 23rd, 2011, 04:00 PM
No...no one has ever been able to explain this. Her shoulder was hurt in '07, so that's why Serena/Venus/Ivanovic destroyed her in the Slams. Then miraculously it healed itself enough for her to win the Aussie Open in '08, but then right after that she hurt it again and that's why she struggled for 3 years. All we've heard is it's the shoulder, it's the shoulder, it's the shoulder. No it's not. I've said it a thousand times, and I'll say it a million more. This is all in Maria's head. Nothing to do with physical...it's all psychological. She isn't as mentally strong as she's portrayed to be; did you see how frustrated she got against Jankovic? A mentally strong Maria would have DESTROYED Jankovic...Jelena had no pace or punch behind her shots. She was trying to hit the ball hard but it wasn't going anywhere, yet Maria still couldn't do anything with it. When Maria gets over the mental block in her game, wherever it came from, she'll return to form.

I seem to remember there being an article stating that she actually tore her rotator cuff or tweaked it at Miami 2006 but her doctors didn't pick it up.

It is mental for Maria though. It's no wonder that the dfs come when pressure is high.

tennisbum79
Aug 23rd, 2011, 04:04 PM
This sequence sums it up nicely

no she had her problems a bit later in 2008. was around Miami time


So what was the reason for the AO2007 debacle?

Two answers to the question above

Serena was

Serena Williams

JJ all the way
Aug 23rd, 2011, 04:20 PM
I always thought that she had injuries but it became big in IW/Miami 2008 when she had to get surgery.

Maybe I should be clear....I miss Pre-Op Pova

@little levity
Aug 23rd, 2011, 04:21 PM
I always thought that she had injuries but it became big in IW/Miami 2008 when she had to get surgery.

Maybe I should be clear....I miss Pre-Op Pova

Why am I now thinking of JJ?

tennisbum79
Aug 23rd, 2011, 04:23 PM
I always thought that she had injuries but it became big in IW/Miami 2008 when she had to get surgery.

Maybe I should be clear....I miss Pre-Op Pova
I wouldn't use that either

doomsday
Aug 23rd, 2011, 04:24 PM
We ALL do.

serenafan08
Aug 23rd, 2011, 04:25 PM
I only ask because I recall some of Sharpie fans were claiming her injury had already started them. Right on cue, see madmax's post below. :tape:




I see you recall the same thing. :lol:

Um, Heller! :lol: It's BS from her fans. They always point out the AO '08, but can never explain the hot mess before and after it.

I seem to remember there being an article stating that she actually tore her rotator cuff or tweaked it at Miami 2006 but her doctors didn't pick it up.

It is mental for Maria though. It's no wonder that the dfs come when pressure is high.

Totally. And shame on her doctors for not catching it if that article was true; I think I remember something about that too. Still, tennis is 70% mental. If you aren't winning in your own mind, you won't win on the court.

Galang
Aug 23rd, 2011, 04:25 PM
Why am I now thinking of JJ?

omg :hearts:

bandabou
Aug 23rd, 2011, 04:28 PM
Yep...she was good. Consistent, but even pre-injury, she still was a major every two year player, sooo...:shrug:

JJ all the way
Aug 23rd, 2011, 04:32 PM
Why am I now thinking of JJ?

Because JJ used to be good in 2008 and now she sucks.....but its not because of an injury, NOW that's all mental :tape:
How I wish she will be back to that form - ok enough of the empress.....

Um, Heller! :lol: It's BS from her fans. They always point out the AO '08, but can never explain the hot mess before and after it.



Totally. And shame on her doctors for not catching it if that article was true; I think I remember something about that too. Still, tennis is 70% mental. If you aren't winning in your own mind, you won't win on the court.

She was quite consistent before 2008 as well - making SF and winning W. Plus, she was evolving as a player :D
I agree that alot of tennis is mental, but the surgery put alot of problems on her serve and shots...her serve is def not as powerful and consistent as before. All those physical problems lead to mental problems too (ex. losing to mugs :( ).

omg :hearts: :hearts: :hearts:

dsanders06
Aug 23rd, 2011, 04:38 PM
No...no one has ever been able to explain this. Her shoulder was hurt in '07, so that's why Serena/Venus/Ivanovic destroyed her in the Slams. Then miraculously it healed itself enough for her to win the Aussie Open in '08, but then right after that she hurt it again and that's why she struggled for 3 years. All we've heard is it's the shoulder, it's the shoulder, it's the shoulder. No it's not. I've said it a thousand times, and I'll say it a million more. This is all in Maria's head. Nothing to do with physical...it's all psychological. She isn't as mentally strong as she's portrayed to be; did you see how frustrated she got against Jankovic? A mentally strong Maria would have DESTROYED Jankovic...Jelena had no pace or punch behind her shots. She was trying to hit the ball hard but it wasn't going anywhere, yet Maria still couldn't do anything with it. When Maria gets over the mental block in her game, wherever it came from, she'll return to form.

Yes, she had an operation and took 10 months out of her career just for the shiggles. :worship:

She had recurrent tendonitis throughout 2007; that finally cleared up after she didn't play for a couple of months after the US Open, but the genrally weakened state of her shoulder because of it was probably one of the main contributing factors to her tearing her rotator cuff in March 2008.

Also, I don't think most people attribute her defeat to Serena in the AO final as down to her shoulder, but her second defeat to Serena in Miami that year certainly was because of it (seeing as she took two months off immediately afterwards).

dsanders06
Aug 23rd, 2011, 04:42 PM
Anyway, in answer to the OP, no she probably won't ever top the AO08 performance, but that's just because it was a once-in-a-career moment - as the BBC commentators agreed after she'd won it, it was probably the most impressive performancce by one player consistently over a Slam since Steffi Graf's prime. :shrug:

@little levity
Aug 23rd, 2011, 04:52 PM
Because JJ used to be good in 2008 and now she sucks.....but its not because of an injury, NOW that's all mental :tape:
How I wish she will be back to that form - ok enough of the empress.....



She was quite consistent before 2008 as well - making SF and winning W. Plus, she was evolving as a player :D
I agree that alot of tennis is mental, but the surgery put alot of problems on her serve and shots...her serve is def not as powerful and consistent as before. All those physical problems lead to mental problems too (ex. losing to mugs :( ).

:hearts: :hearts:

You know what? I still think she's a good and capable player. Yes, her results aren't as they once were but, she's the type of player who could throw a spanner in the works for a few.

pokey camp
Aug 23rd, 2011, 05:12 PM
Serena was
If it was only down to Serena then why was she DFing against Kim in the SF too? Kim just let her get away with it, Serena didn't. :shrug:

She was hurt going into that AO. IIRC, it was that '06 USO match against Tati and then it got worse through the fall and off season.

No...no one has ever been able to explain this. Her shoulder was hurt in '07, so that's why Serena/Venus/Ivanovic destroyed her in the Slams. Then miraculously it healed itself enough for her to win the Aussie Open in '08, but then right after that she hurt it again and that's why she struggled for 3 years. All we've heard is it's the shoulder, it's the shoulder, it's the shoulder.
It's simple. She hurt it initially at the end of '06, then tore it against A-Bond in IW '08 reaching for a low BH. And it was obvious as soon as she it hit something was wrong. I’ve always thought all the cortisone shots she took in ’07 and especially to play the ’08 AO finally caught up with her. Cortisone can weaken the muscle area around the injection site. And remember how god awful her skin was throughout around that time...

Rest Maria!
Aug 23rd, 2011, 05:19 PM
Shoulder or no shoulder, she could certainly add more depth to her game. Right now she is a bit of a one trick poney, which is fine when the opponent isn't playing too well, but if she is, Masha's only strategy is to hope that the other player would choke. It worked against Zvonareva last week, it didn't work against Voskoboeva in Toronto.

tennisbum79
Aug 23rd, 2011, 05:27 PM
You know what? I still think she's a good and capable player. Yes, her results aren't as they once were but, she's the type of player who could throw a spanner in the works for a few.
You are a loyal fan.

Are you also a Cub fan, NY Meet Fan, Golden State Warrior fan, Detroit Lions fans?:lol:

Just kidding, Maria is not that bad.

However, I do admire your unyielding fervor, for a guy who just posted a very well put together statistical data to convincingly argue a point, or throw cold water on the Serena fans exuberant optimism.
Of course you can reconcile both positions, sports fan always do

doomsday
Aug 23rd, 2011, 05:31 PM
Yep...she was good. Consistent, but even pre-injury, she still was a major every two year player, sooo...:shrug:

Please she was facing Henin, Williams sisters, Clijsters at the time the very best players playing a lot better than today. Maria from 2004 to 2008 would win more majors in this mug era and not one every two years.

Stonerpova
Aug 23rd, 2011, 05:44 PM
Yes, she had an operation and took 10 months out of her career just for the shiggles. :worship:

She had recurrent tendonitis throughout 2007; that finally cleared up after she didn't play for a couple of months after the US Open, but the genrally weakened state of her shoulder because of it was probably one of the main contributing factors to her tearing her rotator cuff in March 2008.

Also, I don't think most people attribute her defeat to Serena in the AO final as down to her shoulder, but her second defeat to Serena in Miami that year certainly was because of it (seeing as she took two months off immediately afterwards).

This.

Mikey.
Aug 23rd, 2011, 05:46 PM
The shoulder issue aside, her footwork and ground stroke fluidity/consistency have never been the same since she came back. Just take a look at the video below from the AO 07 vs Zvonareva, it's almost like a different player to what we see today. I was shocked when I stumbled across it a couple of months ago.


rDBhsl9w-XE

Kipling
Aug 23rd, 2011, 05:51 PM
So what was the reason for the AO2007 debacle?

Maria had shoulder problems dating to the 2006 offseason. She never had surgery until the summer of 2008. She endured a long period of time in which her shoulder gave her pain problems. People trivialize it now because they only look at the surgery date, but I can tell you from having dealt with shouler pain and surgery firsthand that it's a huge issue. No one WANTS to have surgery--it's a last resort. Surgery is radical treatment, and very uncertain. For schleps like you and me, who have ordinary jobs, it's the best alternative, but for athletes who rely on their bodies to earn a living, it's the very last resort, and often doesn't make sense from a financial perspective. You can debate the merits of her decision to put off having surgery, but the chronology is this--

At the end of the 2006 season, Maria hurt herself while on vacation. Little was said publically, but there were references made to it in statements released on her website.

During the AO in 2007, her serve was noticeably weaker--as much as 10-15 mph slower than it had been at the USO and during the fall of 2006. This is no coincidence. Maria struggled badly during that tournament, not only there but in her HK exo as well. It wasn't one match, vs. Serena. Her whole AO was sub par. Maria doesn't go 10-8 vs. Pin.

She looked awful in tournaments after that as well, retiring vs. Ivanovic after getting mauled for a set, then losing to a then very average Zvonareva at IW. I watched her firsthand in Miami as she beat Venus on guts alone, her game way out of sorts. She made a decent run in Paris because on clay her serve wasn't as crucial, but even there, she was a t death's door against Schnyder, struggled badly vs. most of her opponents, and got killed by Ivanovic. At Wimbledon and later on hardcourts at the US Open, she really had no chance without her serve. Even that abbreviated motion didn't help. If anything, it totally wrecked her ball toss.

In late '07, around the time of the YEC, it was reported that she had taken some cortisone for pain and was feeling better. No, coincidence, she wound up in the final vs. Henin. In January of '08, she peaked and played almost flawlessly, probably pain free for the first time in more than a year, in winning the AO. She continued playing at a high level in Fed Cup and at Doha, until re-injuring her shoulder at Indian Wells in March of 2008. This is what happens when you rely on cortisone. It isn't a cure. It reduces swelling, but weakens the tendons. Likely, this was the beginning of the tearing which ultimately resulted in the injuries to the rotator cuff which necessitated the surgery. Playing again Amelia Island, Charleston, the French Open, Wimbledon, etc., only aggravated the problem, until she tore those tendons at the Rogers Cup that August. When the trainer came out and asked Maria to resist pressure with her arm, you could see she had no strength in it. I knew it then. She finished the match, but I knew she was done.

jacobruiz
Aug 23rd, 2011, 06:13 PM
Dated July 31, 2008
Sharapova Out of US Open

Season at Risk as Torn Rotator Cuff Revealed

By Matthew Cronin, ********************


It's back to square one for Sharapova.

Maria Sharapova’s Thursday afternoon visit to shoulder specialist Dr. David Altchek didn’t have positive result she hoped for, but at least now the world No. 3 knows what she’s dealing with.

After examining her MRIs in a room at the Westchester Airport, Altchek discovered that she has a torn rotator cuff in her right shoulder. The Russian was forced to pull out of the US Open and will be out the next two to three months. It’s possible that she could miss the rest of the season.

“[Altchek] does not believe that I need surgery and is sending me to work with a specialist in Arizona next week to do extensive rehab and strength work and he believes that I should be ready to play in 2 to 3 months,” Sharapova said. “It hurts me so much to miss the Olympics and the US Open I think this will be the first grand slam I have ever missed.”

Sharapova first RE-injured her shoulder at Indian Wells in March when stretching for a backhand against Alona Bondarenko.
Altchek also told her that the injury could have dated back as far as her fourth round victory over Tatiana Golovin at the 2006 US Open, when she felt a pull while stretching for a groundstroke.
However, she did go on to win the title. After that though, Sharapova’s shoulder has never quite healed and it has only been consistent cortisone injections that have kept her from playing without severe pain.

She appears to have re-aggravated the injury playing at Amelia Island, where she won the title, and Charleston, where she lost in quarters.

“Altchek looked at all my tests from April and today and informed me that I have been playing with a moderate tear in my rotator cuff tendon since April,” she said. “He actually couldn’t believe that I've been playing this long with this injury. You can imagine that I was not very thrilled to hear that my medical team did not see this tear in my shoulder back in April. The good news is that it didn't get much worse since April, but we could have started the healing time back then instead of now.”

Australian Open champion Sharapova has only played three matches since falling to Dinara Safina in the fourth round of the French Open. While she’s clearly disappointed, Sharapova is relieved that she finally discovered the source of her pain.

“Now I need to move forward and stay positive,” the three times Grand Sam champion said. “I am going to work hard to get healthy. … Once I'm healthy, I'm sure I'll look at this as a blessing in disguise. Right now it's a bit painful of course, but every athlete goes through these patches and I'm just grateful that this isn't as bad as it could have

As we know, Maria later decided to get surgery in October of 2008.

Her doctors had mis-diagnosed her torn rotator cuff for over two years ! Remember her "pectoral muscle injury" which caused her pain for much of 2006? :help: Maria had 2 cortisone shots in 2007 for the intense pain before anyone could figure out what exactly it was. She had been told she could just rest her shoulder and it should be all right so she kept playing until the pain got to be unbearable and then rested it and resumed playing.

Maria is an athlete who plays tennis, not a medical specialist. She was a teen-ager and trusted the advice of her team and her physicians for years, playing in pain to a greater or lesser extent. She rarely complained and NEVER blamed her pain for any of her losses.
But that doesn't negate the fact that her shoulder injury was a factor for years.

JJ all the way
Aug 23rd, 2011, 06:32 PM
The shoulder issue aside, her footwork and ground stroke fluidity/consistency have never been the same since she came back. Just take a look at the video below from the AO 07 vs Zvonareva, it's almost like a different player to what we see today. I was shocked when I stumbled across it a couple of months ago.


rDBhsl9w-XE

Nice - Vera was FAT! :lol:

Mr.Sharapova
Aug 23rd, 2011, 06:42 PM
I don't think many people here see and know how bad Maria's injury was and the guts she had to overcome it and play again.

Break My Rapture
Aug 23rd, 2011, 07:02 PM
The earliest I can ever recall Maria having problems with her shoulder was off season 2005/early 2006, she had a pectoral strain in her right shoulder and was in doubt for the AO at one point if I remember all that correctly.

dsanders06
Aug 23rd, 2011, 07:15 PM
Maria is an athlete who plays tennis, not a medical specialist. She was a teen-ager and trusted the advice of her team and her physicians for years, playing in pain to a greater or lesser extent. She rarely complained and NEVER blamed her pain for any of her losses.
But that doesn't negate the fact that her shoulder injury was a factor for years.

Yup. Just because Maria isn't a sore loser and tries to blame every loss of hers on her own physical problems like certain players do, that doesn't mean it isn't a factor. :shrug:

denny5576
Aug 23rd, 2011, 07:17 PM
Her doctors had mis-diagnosed her torn rotator cuff for over two years ! Remember her "pectoral muscle injury" which caused her pain for much of 2006? :help: Maria had 2 cortisone shots in 2007 for the intense pain before anyone could figure out what exactly it was.

She was a teen-ager and trusted the advice of her team and her physicians for years, playing in pain to a greater or lesser extent. She rarely complained and NEVER blamed her pain for any of her losses.
But that doesn't negate the fact that her shoulder injury was a factor for years.
Thanks for clarifying important facts!
Can confirm everything you said.

scandic78
Aug 23rd, 2011, 07:20 PM
Thanks for posting these. Indeed, Maria looked great and played with conviction. Don't write the new Pova off just yet..the more wins and confidence she gets, the more settled she'll become :angel:

edificio
Aug 23rd, 2011, 07:24 PM
The article says the injury could have dated from 2006.

I really don't think you can excuse all of Maria's losses due to her shoulder problem. Seems a bit pathetic to do so.

VishaalMaria
Aug 23rd, 2011, 07:29 PM
Excuses, excuses, excuses. It's all about the shoulder with Maria. Whatever.

hablo
Aug 23rd, 2011, 07:29 PM
Dated July 31, 2008


As we know, Maria later decided to get surgery in October of 2008.

Her doctors had mis-diagnosed her torn rotator cuff for over two years ! Remember her "pectoral muscle injury" which caused her pain for much of 2006? :help: Maria had 2 cortisone shots in 2007 for the intense pain before anyone could figure out what exactly it was. She had been told she could just rest her shoulder and it should be all right so she kept playing until the pain got to be unbearable and then rested it and resumed playing.

Maria is an athlete who plays tennis, not a medical specialist. She was a teen-ager and trusted the advice of her team and her physicians for years, playing in pain to a greater or lesser extent. She rarely complained and NEVER blamed her pain for any of her losses.
But that doesn't negate the fact that her shoulder injury was a factor for years.

Well at least her fans can't blame her shoulder for her loss vs Momo at Wimbledon 2006. :p

VishaalMaria
Aug 23rd, 2011, 07:30 PM
Well at least her fans can't blame her shoulder for her loss vs Momo at Wimbledon 2006. :p

I was watching that actually. Momos net skills were amaze. Always had Maria on the defensive. And I LOLed when Maria hit that forehand long and Momo continued to run and jump in glory.

hablo
Aug 23rd, 2011, 07:32 PM
I was watching that actually. Momos net skills were amaze. Always had Maria on the defensive. And I LOLed when Maria hit that forehand long and Momo continued to run and jump in glory.

I'll have to re-watch that match again... :drool:

HRHoliviasmith
Aug 23rd, 2011, 07:37 PM
So please let me get this straight, are people insinuating she would have beaten Serena at AO 2007 if not for the shoulder? :haha:

DOUBLEFIST
Aug 23rd, 2011, 07:38 PM
So please let me get this straight, are people insinuating she would have beaten Serena if not for the shoulder? :haha:
They trot out this :bs: every so often. Let them say it. It gives them comfort. Virtually everyone else KNOWS it's not true.

pokey camp
Aug 23rd, 2011, 07:39 PM
Excuses, excuses, excuses. It's all about the shoulder with Maria. Whatever.
Facts are not excuses and disliking the facts doesn't make them any less true. :shrug:

The article says the injury could have dated from 2006.

I really don't think you can excuse all of Maria's losses due to her shoulder problem. Seems a bit pathetic to do so.

Okay, clearly the doctor analyzing the MRIs was wrong and you, certified TF Poster MD, are correct. :lol:

So what's your theory how a player went from having one of the best serves on tour, to serving 10mph slower and DFing ONE slam later? Because that's what happened between the 2006 USO and the 2007 AO.

jacobruiz
Aug 23rd, 2011, 07:41 PM
So please let me get this straight, are people insinuating she would have beaten Serena at AO 2007 if not for the shoulder? :haha:

No, Olivia. :rolleyes:

We are stating the facts about Maria's history of shoulder problems and the pain she has played with. You can infer from that what you will.:shrug:

dsanders06
Aug 23rd, 2011, 07:41 PM
The article says the injury could have dated from 2006.

I really don't think you can excuse all of Maria's losses due to her shoulder problem. Seems a bit pathetic to do so.

Excuses, excuses, excuses. It's all about the shoulder with Maria. Whatever.

You might not like it, but that's just the way it is. :shrug: It's simply a fact that no-one has ever got even as far down the comeback trail from such a serious injury as Maria has (and no, no injuries that Serena or Venus have ever had compares).

So please let me get this straight, are people insinuating she would have beaten Serena at AO 2007 if not for the shoulder? :haha:

How about you go and quote one post that says that? :)

JJ all the way
Aug 23rd, 2011, 07:42 PM
Haha nobody is insinuating or making excuses for Pova (esp before 2008) - her losses were what they are

But today, she is def NOT the player she was a few years ago - no powerful/accurate serve, shots are not as lethal as before although getting better.... Her recent losses to players she should have beaten are surprising to me

I just can't help but think that shoulder surgery had a part to do with her dip in form. Let's hope she will come back stronger.

Ciarán
Aug 23rd, 2011, 07:43 PM
Now that the US Open is approaching us, people are naming their favorites and Pova is definitely up there. That made me want to watch some of her classics:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eAb36h5Rbc
AO 2008 v Henin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUtSK19Wyxo
2008 Ao v. Davenport

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIUQNTqNctU
USO 2006 v. Henin

Watching these matches, I realized how amazing Pova was back then. There was a sense of reliability with her shots, her serve, an ultimately her winning big matches. Pre-shoulder injury Pova would have owned Petkovic, Kvitova, Wozniaki, Li Na and Azarenka in my opinion. Now, she is completely relying on her mental fortitude to win matches.

Will pre-shoulder injury Pova ever be back?

That match against Henin was a complete and utter demolition :drool:

dsanders06
Aug 23rd, 2011, 07:44 PM
I was watching that actually. Momos net skills were amaze. Always had Maria on the defensive. And I LOLed when Maria hit that forehand long and Momo continued to run and jump in glory.

Good job Maria avenged that defeat at the US Open in order to win a tournament where Venus hasn't even survived to Super Saturday in 8 years :drool:

hablo
Aug 23rd, 2011, 07:44 PM
You might not like it, but that's just the way it is. :shrug: It's simply a fact that no-one has ever got even as far down the comeback trail from such a serious injury as Maria has (and no, no injuries that Serena or Venus have ever had compares).



How about you go and quote one post that says that? :)

Oh here we go again! :haha::help::tape:

VishaalMaria
Aug 23rd, 2011, 07:44 PM
You might not like it, but that's just the way it is. :shrug: It's simply a fact that no-one has ever got even as far down the comeback trail from such a serious injury as Maria has (and no, no injuries that Serena or Venus have ever had compares).



How about you go and quote one post that says that? :)


This isn't a comparison of injuries and which one is worse. How childish are you?

It's more about the fact people are indicating that Maria's shoulder issues are causing her crappy play. And that's an excuse. So her shoulder is still hurting after four years? Maria should learn to adapt then.

And I find it interesting how Maria's shoulder issues played up when she lost to Serena at the AO 2007 and in Charleston 2008 (her best form to date).

hablo
Aug 23rd, 2011, 07:46 PM
That match against Henin was a complete and utter demolition :drool:

The AO2008 match sure was. I enjoyed it quite a bit.

:bigwave: was never the same afterwards!! :lol:

dsanders06
Aug 23rd, 2011, 07:47 PM
This isn't a comparison of injuries and which one is worse. How childish are you?

It's more about the fact people are indicating that Maria's shoulder issues are causing her crappy play. And that's an excuse. So her shoulder is still hurting after four years? Maria should learn to adapt then.

And I find it interesting how Maria's shoulder issues played up when she lost to Serena at the AO 2007 and in Charleston 2008 (her best form to date).

:facepalm:

VishaalMaria
Aug 23rd, 2011, 07:48 PM
:facepalm:

So it's not hurting? I guess it can't be used as an excuse then. :lol:

Lucemferre
Aug 23rd, 2011, 07:48 PM
AO 2007 was the first tournament it started and her last two peak tournaments after shoulder problems were YEC 2007 and AO 2008. She's yet to come close to that level.

HRHoliviasmith
Aug 23rd, 2011, 07:49 PM
No, Olivia. :rolleyes:

We are stating the facts about Maria's history of shoulder problems and the pain she has played with. You can infer from that what you will.:shrug:

No need to have an attitude with me, jacob. but yes that is in fact the impression I got. thanks for the response and hope you're well. :hug:

effedcamel
Aug 23rd, 2011, 07:51 PM
Deluded fans of other players thinking this thread has anything to do with excuses lol. The only thing this thread is pointing out is how much better Maria used to play the game, not how she would've beaten your fave in a woulda coulda shoulda scenario.

On topic, I wonder why she's switched to pretty much exclusively using the reverse forehand now?

borrowedheaven
Aug 23rd, 2011, 07:53 PM
Tha sad thing is that a major injury was always looming. Her groundstrokes were amazing, and so was her serve, but it all was too demanding for her body.

dsanders06
Aug 23rd, 2011, 07:54 PM
So it's not hurting? I guess it can't be used as an excuse then. :lol:

I won't even bother. You showed how biased you are when you insisted you didn't believe a series of articles that said her shoulder has been a serious issue since 2006, then showed how ignorant of basic physiotherapy you are when you claimed a tennis player can "adapt" if their shoulder is fucked. :lol:

Ciarán
Aug 23rd, 2011, 07:59 PM
The AO2008 match sure was. I enjoyed it quite a bit.

:bigwave: was never the same afterwards!! :lol:

Yes, sadly not. Hopefully one day she will be though :) Her form there was scary...

hablo
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:01 PM
Yes, sadly not. Hopefully one day she will be though :) Her form there was scary...

:bigwave: refers to Juju not Sharpie. ;)

borrowedheaven
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:01 PM
Yes, sadly not. Hopefully one day she will be though :) Her form there was scary...
I think he meant Henin.

VishaalMaria
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:01 PM
I won't even bother. You showed how biased you are when you insisted you didn't believe a series of articles that said her shoulder has been a serious issue since 2006, then showed how ignorant of basic physiotherapy you are when you claimed a tennis player can "adapt" if their shoulder is fucked. :lol:

How ironic, since you tried to diminish the extent of injuries Serena and Venus had over the years because you think Maria's injury is worse (or has affected her more). Biased much yourself? Serena has knee surgery and had to compensate for her decreased speed in movement. Venus had wrist srugery and had to compensate her backahnd stroke.

Marias shoulder has been an issue, but nowadays it's more mental for her because she hits so many dfs on key points or pressure situations. She hasn't adapted by developing a spin serve to take pressure off of herself, and hasn't won big since start of 2008 and hasn't progressed past the 4th round in a hardcourt slams since then.

hablo
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:02 PM
I think he meant Henin.

She. ;)

Ciarán
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:07 PM
:bigwave: refers to Juju not Sharpie. ;)

I think he meant Henin.

Oh, sorry :lol: Well yeah I agree ;)

dsanders06
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:09 PM
How ironic, since you tried to diminish the extent of injuries Serena and Venus had over the years because you think Maria's injury is worse (or has affected her more). Biased much yourself? Serena has knee surgery and had to compensate for her decreased speed in movement. Venus had wrist srugery and had to compensate her backahnd stroke.

Marias shoulder has been an issue, but nowadays it's more mental for her because she hits so many dfs on key points or pressure situations. She hasn't adapted by developing a spin serve to take pressure off of herself, and hasn't won big since start of 2008 and hasn't progressed past the 4th round in a hardcourt slams since then.

Whereas shoulder injury affects ALL shots... she had to completely rebuild serve, forehand and backhand. Anybody who even knows anything about the sport knows that a shoulder injury is the most serious you can suffer in this sport, as Lindsay Davenport said repeatedly in her commentary for the BBC at Wimbledon. People like Andrea Jaeger and Capriati went from making Slam finals to never being able to play again after suffering similar injuries... and you're trying to say the injury isn't even a contributing factor in Maria's deteriation in results since 2006? :help:

You're just going to have to get used to the fact that people are ALWAYS going to give the shoulder injury serious consideration in their analysis of Maria's career, because there's clear cause and effect between her first suffering the injury and her results starting to decline. :shrug:

VishaalMaria
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:13 PM
Whereas shoulder injury affects ALL shots... she had to completely rebuild serve, forehand and backhand. Anybody who even knows anything about the sport knows that a shoulder injury is the most serious you can suffer in this sport, as Lindsay Davenport said repeatedly in her commentary for the BBC at Wimbledon. People like Andrea Jaeger and Capriati went from making Slam finals to never being able to play again after suffering similar injuries... and you're trying to say the injury isn't even a contributing factor in Maria's deteriation in results since 2006? :help:

You're just going to have to get used to the fact that people are ALWAYS going to give the shoulder injury serious consideration in their analysis of Maria's career, because there's clear cause and effect between her first suffering the injury and her results starting to decline. :shrug:

I talked about the injuries Venus and Serena had because I wanted to depict that they both adapted (Serena ALOT more than Venus). But Maria hasn't.

The shoulder isn't hurting Maria anymore? Is it?

And Venus obtained a major ab strain which took her out for the second half of 2003. I don't see you factoring in that injury when you talk about her and her results. As I said, biased much? If you're going to ridicule Venus, then don't get uptight about Maria and what certain "experts" think. I guess it's nice to fall back on "Oh but she had a shoulder injury" every time she loses. The only difference is, Venus fans dont bring it up every loss she suffers.

s teddy
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:18 PM
The shoulder isn't hurting Maria anymore? Is it?


Is Serena's knee still hurting?

dsanders06
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:18 PM
I talked about the injuries Venus and Serena had because I wanted to depict that they both adapted (Serena ALOT more than Venus). But Maria hasn't.

The shoulder isn't hurting Maria anymore? Is it?

And Venus obtained a major ab strain which took her out for the second half of 2003. I don't see you factoring in that injury when you talk about her and her results. As I said, biased much? If you're going to ridicule Venus, then don't get uptight about Maria and what certain "experts" think. I guess it's nice to fall back on "Oh but she had a shoulder injury" every time she loses. The only difference is, Venus fans dont bring it up every loss she suffers.

You really don't get it. :facepalm: You CAN'T "adapt" to a shoulder injury because it affects EVERYTHING that's relevant in tennis (except movement, but Maria will obviously never be a great counter-puncher no matter how much she tries to "adapt")... whereas a knee, wrist or ab injury simply doesn't affect EVERY part of the game in such a severe or long-lasting way.

VishaalMaria
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:20 PM
You really don't get it. :facepalm: You CAN'T "adapt" to a shoulder injury because it affects EVERYTHING that's relevant in tennis (except movement, but Maria will obviously never be a great counter-puncher no matter how much she tries to "adapt")... whereas a knee, wrist or ab injury simply doesn't affect EVERY part of the game in such a severe or long-lasting way.


The only MAJOR weakness in Maria's game is her serve where she leaks a large number of dfs time to time. Are you telling me, she can't adapt a spin serve or use placement instead of pace? That's what I've been asking when I talk about "adapting". I understand that a rotator cuff is a big injury, and that's why I'm asking if Maria's shoulder is still a problem in that it still hurts?

VishaalMaria
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:21 PM
Is Serena's knee still hurting?

No, so is the shoulder still hurting for Maria?

dsanders06
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:23 PM
The only MAJOR weakness in Maria's game is her serve where she leaks a large number of dfs time to time. Are you telling me, she can't adapt a spin serve or use placement instead of pace?

PLEASE go and do some research into what you're talking about before embarrassing yourself any further. Shoulder surgery DOESN'T just affect serve, it also completely affects your forehand and backhand, because you've lost all feel and timing in your arm.

And fyi, yes Maria's shoulder still affect her on a day-to-day basis - for instance, it was clearly feeling stiff in a couple of her matches in Cincinnati last week as shown by the fact she often swung her arm around a few times before a service game to try to get it loosen up.

s teddy
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:25 PM
No, so is the shoulder still hurting for Maria?
Since Serena has obviously fully recovered from her knee injury and moves just as well as she did in 2002/2003, I guess Maria's shoulder isn't an excuse any more either.

VishaalMaria
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:27 PM
PLEASE go and do some research into what you're talking about before embarrassing yourself any further. Shoulder surgery DOESN'T just affect serve, it also completely affects your forehand and backhand, because you've lost all feel and timing in your arm.

And fyi, yes Maria's shoulder still affect her on a day-to-day basis - for instance, it was clearly feeling stiff in a couple of her matches in Cincinnati last week as shown by the fact she often swung her arm around a few times before a service game to try to get it loosen up.

I know what I am talking about, it's just that your reading skills aren't as good as you think because you keep side stepping my question and talk about something totally different. So....

I'm not talking about Sharapovas forehand or her backhand. I understand that a rotator cuff affects all those shots. But I'm sure many would agree that, right now, Maria's weakness is that serve of hers. So, again, I ask you, are you telling me she can't adapt a spin serve of use placement instead of pace ( thus hitting and hoping)?

Answer me that. And if you can't, then I know that people can't use that shoulder as any sort of excuse.

VishaalMaria
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:28 PM
Since Serena has obviously fully recovered from her knee injury and moves just as well as she did in 2002/2003, I guess Maria's shoulder isn't an excuse any more either.

Since when was Serena's knee an excuse, or at least, as big as an excuse as the whole shoulder thing? Reciepts please.

dsanders06
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:29 PM
I know what I am talking about, it's just that your reading skills aren't as good as you think because you keep side stepping my question and talk about something totally different. So....

I'm not talking about Sharapovas forehand or her backhand. I understand that a rotator cuff affects all those shots. But I'm sure many would agree that, right now, Maria's weakness is that serve of hers. So, again, I ask you, are you telling me she can't adapt a spin serve of use placement instead of pace ( thus hitting and hoping)?

Answer me that. And if you can't, then I know that people can't use that shoulder as any sort of excuse.

She doesn't spin her second serve in because she feels it would be hammered by any competent returner. That doesn't change the fact that, before her shoulder injury, she was consistently able to hammer down second serves as fast as she tries to now.

s teddy
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:33 PM
Since when was Serena's knee an excuse, or at least, as big as an excuse as the whole shoulder thing? Reciepts please.
Right here.
How ironic, since you tried to diminish the extent of injuries Serena and Venus had over the years because you think Maria's injury is worse (or has affected her more). Biased much yourself? Serena has knee surgery and had to compensate for her decreased speed in movement.

If that isn't saying that Serena's injury was just as bad as Maria's, I don't know what it's saying.

VishaalMaria
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:36 PM
She doesn't spin her second serve in because she feels it would be hammered by any competent returner. That doesn't change the fact that, before her shoulder injury, she was consistently able to hammer down second serves as fast as she tries to now.

Oh, so she has the ability (to at least try) adapt a spin serve or at least place the serve, but she chooses not to. Instead she chooses to basically hit and hope and for the most part hit dfs. Gotcha! She hasn't adapated and that's her fault.

So the shoulder can't be used as an excuse if she isn't willing to adapt (because the injury doesn't prevent her from spinning in the serve or placing it). Pretty simple.

VishaalMaria
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:37 PM
Right here.

If that isn't saying that Serena's injury was just as bad as Maria's, I don't know what it's saying.

I think you need to invest in a dictionary and look up the word "excuse" in context because I wasn't using Serenas knee injury as an excuse for any loss. I was talking about adapting. And that's clear as day.

bandabou
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:37 PM
Please she was facing Henin, Williams sisters, Clijsters at the time the very best players playing a lot better than today. Maria from 2004 to 2008 would win more majors in this mug era and not one every two years.

Of course..but that goes for everybody. ;)

bandabou
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:43 PM
:lol: Mashafans...so sad! Maria's the only one who got injured. :crying2:

Now calling Serena's knee surgery and long condition as not serious injuries?! :rolls:

s teddy
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:44 PM
I think you need to invest in a dictionary and look up the word "excuse" in context because I wasn't using Serenas knee injury as an excuse for any loss. I was talking about adapting. And that's clear as day.

*Goes to shelf and pulls out dictionary.*
excuse, n. A real or pretended reason that is given; explanation
We're saying that Maria's injury is a real or pretended reason that is given for her poor serving. You're saying that Serena's injury is a real or pretended reason that is given for her poorer movement. You're saying that Serena's injury was just as bad as Maria's. We are saying that is not true. What does the definition of "excuse" have to do with it?

bandabou
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:47 PM
Whereas shoulder injury affects ALL shots... she had to completely rebuild serve, forehand and backhand. Anybody who even knows anything about the sport knows that a shoulder injury is the most serious you can suffer in this sport, as Lindsay Davenport said repeatedly in her commentary for the BBC at Wimbledon. People like Andrea Jaeger and Capriati went from making Slam finals to never being able to play again after suffering similar injuries... and you're trying to say the injury isn't even a contributing factor in Maria's deteriation in results since 2006? :help:

You're just going to have to get used to the fact that people are ALWAYS going to give the shoulder injury serious consideration in their analysis of Maria's career, because there's clear cause and effect between her first suffering the injury and her results starting to decline. :shrug:

Well....in that token. Serena went from winning 5 out of 6 majors to only winning 2 in the 4 years that followed. Only recently has she gotten a bit of consistency at the majors. So you can't say the surgery didn't affect her.

dsanders06
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:47 PM
Oh, so she has the ability (to at least try) adapt a spin serve or at least place the serve, but she chooses not to. Instead she chooses to basically hit and hope and for the most part hit dfs. Gotcha! She hasn't adapated and that's her fault.

So the shoulder can't be used as an excuse if she isn't willing to adapt (because the injury doesn't prevent her from spinning in the serve or placing it). Pretty simple.

She isn't willing to something that in her mind would give her less chances of winning Slams. I don't even get what point you're trying to make.


Mashafans...so sad! Maria's the only one who got injured.

Now calling Serena's knee surgery and long condition as not serious injuries?!

Oh dear.

dsanders06
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:49 PM
Well....in that token. Serena went from winning 5 out of 6 majors to only winning 2 in the 4 years that followed. Only recently has she gotten a bit of consistency at the majors. So you can't say the surgery didn't affect her.

Probably to some extent in the short term, although the meat and potatoes of Serena's game was always her serve and groundstrokes which aren't affected by knee surgery, and in any case knee surgery doesn't cause such a great loss of sensation in that joint as shoulder surgery does.

vozas
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:50 PM
Why is this Veerror person so obsessed with Maria? He posts 30x as much as I do and I'm actually a Maria fan :help:

VishaalMaria
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:50 PM
*Goes to shelf and pulls out dictionary.*

We're saying that Maria's injury is a real or pretended reason that is given for her poor serving. You're saying that Serena's injury is a real or pretended reason that is given for her poorer movement. You're saying that Serena's injury was just as bad as Maria's. We are saying that is not true. What does the definition of "excuse" have to do with it?

LOL

No where have I stated that "Serena's injury was just as bad as Maria's". That's something that you inferred.

I was talking about adapting.

VishaalMaria
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:52 PM
She isn't willing to something that in her mind would give her less chances of winning Slams. I don't even get what point you're trying to make.




Oh dear.

It's pretty simple, my point. You just chose not to read it.

Break My Rapture
Aug 23rd, 2011, 08:56 PM
Why is this Veerror person so obsessed with Maria? He posts 30x as much as I do and I'm actually a Maria fan :help:
Not only in this thread.

J4m3ka
Aug 23rd, 2011, 09:04 PM
:help: At all the hype surrounding Maria's surgery which she herself admitted as being "minor" :tape:

Sure it is the worst place to be injured for a tennis player, (in fact I would possibly put a back injury like Safina's as more career threatening than Maria's minor tear) but some Maria fans really are clutching at straws here.

Her FH and BH are executed in practically the same way as they were in 2006 (minus the lasso whip). She has tweaked her serve slightly to reduce the stress on her shoulder as a precaution - but that still isn't the reason for her shitty serve. Her reluctancy to add more spin to her second serve or take a bit off the first is the reason for the DF fests we have to endure. The DFs coming at crucial moments in a match also make it more of a mental thing.

If a player is intent on going for broke on their second serve then some DFs are to be expected. You can't try and serve two first serves then blame shoulder surgery when the second doesn't go in :tape:

The only thing I would say is that the injury has possibly taken a hit at her confidence on her strokes - but this is universal for any player coming back after an injury.

s teddy
Aug 23rd, 2011, 09:05 PM
LOL

No where have I stated that "Serena's injury was just as bad as Maria's". That's something that you inferred.

I was talking about adapting.

I did infer it, but, if I inferred wrongly, I'd like you to explain just what you meant in the post from which I inferred it.

But I made that post before I noticed you'd edited yours, then I got called away from the computer before I could edit mine accordingly. As for "adapting" her serve, do you really think she hasn't tried? She's gone through half a dozen different service motions, tried to serve more slowly and probably done many other things of which I'm not aware. Still, she hits many double faults, even though she didn't before her surgery. Are you saying her shoulder has nothing to do with it?

s teddy
Aug 23rd, 2011, 09:08 PM
*snip*

"Minor"? Seriously? Her injury was anything but "minor." (And please don't quote her on it. We Sharapova fans learned a long time ago not to believe anything she says.)

dragonflies
Aug 23rd, 2011, 09:09 PM
Probably to some extent in the short term, although the meat and potatoes of Serena's game was always her serve and groundstrokes which aren't affected by knee surgery, and in any case knee surgery doesn't cause such a great loss of sensation in that joint as shoulder surgery does.



You can talk all you want, and I am not ( and don't have time) to argue back and forth with you. The only thing that can prove the matter is what has happened out there. And that is what matters.


Sharapova in the early part of 08 was winning a lot and blasted her opponents out of the court. She swingging freely, showed no sign of uncomfortable, yet her fans tried to find excuses of " injury" ? Talk about poor sports.


In the AO 07, Maria along with Clijsters were the favorites at the tournament. Maria got into the final after beating a heavy favorite Clijsters in the semifinal, so she was playing very well and was touted to be a champion over a rusty overweighted Serena. In the finals, Serena's outstanding play destroyed Maria while Maria was healthy, looked pumped and showed no sign of hurt/ paint, only frustration.

Maria admited she was outplayed. She has more class than some of her fans, especially this dsander poster.

J4m3ka
Aug 23rd, 2011, 09:16 PM
"Minor"? Seriously? Her injury was anything but "minor." (And please don't quote her on it. We Sharapova fans learned a long time ago not to believe anything she says.)

I just said that she admitted it was minor. Obviously nor you or me have any idea to what extent the injury was. She did take quite a long time out but that was probably to make sure it was fully recovered.

My point stands though that she no longer has an issue with the shoulder, but it is down to other problems instead. Mainly a confidence one (and dumb second serves against players who aren't even strong returners). In 2006/2008 she was going for all her shots and was 100% confident in them. You can see the hesitation on her face these days in crucial moments.

Anyway, she is gradually breaking the barrier down which is good to see.

s teddy
Aug 23rd, 2011, 09:23 PM
I just said that she admitted it was minor. Obviously nor you or me have any idea to what extent the injury was. She did take quite a long time out but that was probably to make sure it was fully recovered. Didn't AraveneCaravan say that, for athletes, surgery was usually a last resort? I doubt she'd have needed surgery if her injury were minor. :shrug:

My point stands though that she no longer has an issue with the shoulder, but it is down to other problems instead. Mainly a confidence one (and dumb second serves against players who aren't even strong returners). In 2006/2008 she was going for all her shots and was 100% confident in them. You can see the hesitation on her face these days in crucial moments.

Anyway, she is gradually breaking the barrier down which is good to see.
Fair enough, although often she double-faults even when she's just trying to spin her serves in.

Beny
Aug 23rd, 2011, 09:30 PM
I miss pre-shoulder injury Pova

Everyone who understands tennis and enjoys the game does

She is terrible these days and has been terrible to watch ever since the surgery/shoulder issue etc.

She used to be dominant, and players used to get intimidated/worried about playing her when she was on.
Now everyone wants to play her and enjoy DF-gifts on big points. Li Na has a grand slam with a DF on MP against post-shoulder Sharapova in a GS semifinal. Would that have happened before? Never

Her mentality is so weak. She wins when she leads. But when she is a set and some breaks down, she can not serve herself out of trouble. She will hit a DF on the very first break point of her opponnet.

RIP Grand slam Masha

Slutiana
Aug 23rd, 2011, 09:46 PM
There are a lot of silly posts here.

At the end of the day, every single injury is different. Both Serena and Venus have had a variety of different injuries over the years and have done brilliant to adapt. But there are many reasons for that - the main ones being that shoulder is probably as bad as it can get for a tennis player trying to come back (back is the worst, but you usually have no hope of returning with a bad back injury) and also the pure fact that Venus and Serena are such incredible athletes and just have more in their game. Even with all those ailments PLUS age, they're still two of the most athletic and quickest players on tour. They serve bigger than the rest and can volley etc.

OTOH, Maria has always so reliant on her ballstriking and serve that it is that much worse for her. She has nothing else to fall back on.

I saw a lot of people saying that Maria's surgery was 'minor'. Yes, it was, but the recovery from that minor surgery was as major as it gets. Though there is no pain aside from the usual post-match inflammations (to this day she has to heavily ice it after every single hit and match), the shoulder will never be the same. Journalists have always asked why there is no safety in her second serve, and her reply has always been the same. Not only is it impossible for her to step up to the baseline and smash down 4 service winners post-surgery, but she doesn't feel the ball as she did and just can't manipulate the ball to produce topspin on the serve as she used to.

Galsen
Aug 23rd, 2011, 10:53 PM
You might not like it, but that's just the way it is. :shrug: It's simply a fact that no-one has ever got even as far down the comeback trail from such a serious injury as Maria has (and no, no injuries that Serena or Venus have ever had compares).

pulmonary embolism is not a big deal :)

DOUBLEFIST
Aug 23rd, 2011, 11:08 PM
pulmonary embolism is not a big deal :)
Not to mention patella tendon repair. :rolleyes:

Listen, don't even try with these pova-files. They need the convenience of the shoulder injury.

If she wins a big match, then it's, "See, Maria at her best can beat anyone! She's the greatest! ...blah, blah, blah"

But if she loses, then it's, "Maria's shoulder this..., Maria's shoulder that, etc, etc."

Don't bother with them. :shrug: It's pointless.

Break My Rapture
Aug 23rd, 2011, 11:26 PM
I'm sorry but, how the hell did this thread manage to get WS involved? It's getting sort of annoying right now.

Mrs. Dimitrova
Aug 23rd, 2011, 11:28 PM
There are a lot of silly posts here.

At the end of the day, every single injury is different. Both Serena and Venus have had a variety of different injuries over the years and have done brilliant to adapt. But there are many reasons for that - the main ones being that shoulder is probably as bad as it can get for a tennis player trying to come back (back is the worst, but you usually have no hope of returning with a bad back injury) and also the pure fact that Venus and Serena are such incredible athletes and just have more in their game. Even with all those ailments PLUS age, they're still two of the most athletic and quickest players on tour. They serve bigger than the rest and can volley etc.

OTOH, Maria has always so reliant on her ballstriking and serve that it is that much worse for her. She has nothing else to fall back on.

I saw a lot of people saying that Maria's surgery was 'minor'. Yes, it was, but the recovery from that minor surgery was as major as it gets. Though there is no pain aside from the usual post-match inflammations (to this day she has to heavily ice it after every single hit and match), the shoulder will never be the same. Journalists have always asked why there is no safety in her second serve, and her reply has always been the same. Not only is it impossible for her to step up to the baseline and smash down 4 service winners post-surgery, but she doesn't feel the ball as she did and just can't manipulate the ball to produce topspin on the serve as she used to.

:)

it-girl
Aug 23rd, 2011, 11:52 PM
Players have evolved and know how to take it to Maria, pre-shoulder or not it was a matter of time. Nothing in Maria's game has changed, it is still 1 dimensional and she is still doing the same things trying to hit people off of the court. But the difference is that she often finds herself hit off of the court instead. Time has not stood still for Maria and many players have had injuries that they have had to cope with and adjust to, Maria is no exception.

dsanders06
Aug 23rd, 2011, 11:57 PM
There are a lot of silly posts here.

At the end of the day, every single injury is different. Both Serena and Venus have had a variety of different injuries over the years and have done brilliant to adapt. But there are many reasons for that - the main ones being that shoulder is probably as bad as it can get for a tennis player trying to come back (back is the worst, but you usually have no hope of returning with a bad back injury) and also the pure fact that Venus and Serena are such incredible athletes and just have more in their game. Even with all those ailments PLUS age, they're still two of the most athletic and quickest players on tour. They serve bigger than the rest and can volley etc.

OTOH, Maria has always so reliant on her ballstriking and serve that it is that much worse for her. She has nothing else to fall back on.

I saw a lot of people saying that Maria's surgery was 'minor'. Yes, it was, but the recovery from that minor surgery was as major as it gets. Though there is no pain aside from the usual post-match inflammations (to this day she has to heavily ice it after every single hit and match), the shoulder will never be the same. Journalists have always asked why there is no safety in her second serve, and her reply has always been the same. Not only is it impossible for her to step up to the baseline and smash down 4 service winners post-surgery, but she doesn't feel the ball as she did and just can't manipulate the ball to produce topspin on the serve as she used to.

Yup. All she ever said was the proceedure was minor, by which she meant it was minor in the terms ordinary people use to "rate" the seriousness of operations (i.e. how many days/weeks they're bedbound, how long until they can do household tasks, how long until their energy levels are back to normal, etc.). But rating the seriousness in how it affects an athlete's career is quite clearly another matter altogether.

Not to mention patella tendon repair. :rolleyes:

Listen, don't even try with these pova-files. They need the convenience of the shoulder injury.

If she wins a big match, then it's, "See, Maria at her best can beat anyone! She's the greatest! ...blah, blah, blah"

But if she loses, then it's, "Maria's shoulder this..., Maria's shoulder that, etc, etc."

Don't bother with them. :shrug: It's pointless.

It's serious, but not as serious as a shoulder injury for a tennisplayer. That's just the way it is. :shrug:

And I just can't at a Willytard actually likening Serena's pulmonary embolism to it (which anyone with any logic knows is far more acute for an athlete than a muscular injury) :hysteric:

serenafan08
Aug 24th, 2011, 12:00 AM
Not to mention patella tendon repair. :rolleyes:

Listen, don't even try with these pova-files. They need the convenience of the shoulder injury.

If she wins a big match, then it's, "See, Maria at her best can beat anyone! She's the greatest! ...blah, blah, blah"

But if she loses, then it's, "Maria's shoulder this..., Maria's shoulder that, etc, etc."

Don't bother with them. :shrug: It's pointless.

Basically. Let another players' fans bring up and injury and they come out in droves. But they'll bring up Maria's injury in a heartbeat and get offended when people tell them to grow a pair. Maria's fans are a NON-MOTHA-FUCKIN-FACTOR! In my Evelyn voice! :lol: :haha: :o

dsanders06
Aug 24th, 2011, 12:04 AM
Basically. Let another players' fans bring up and injury and they come out in droves. But they'll bring up Maria's injury in a heartbeat and get offended when people tell them to grow a pair. Maria's fans are a NON-MOTHA-FUCKIN-FACTOR! In my Evelyn voice! :lol: :haha: :o

This is a strawman argument because there's no active player in either the men's or women's fields who have had as serious an injury, with the exceptions of Tommy Haas and I guess Safina.

Galsen
Aug 24th, 2011, 12:05 AM
Basically. Let another players' fans bring up and injury and they come out in droves. But they'll bring up Maria's injury in a heartbeat and get offended when people tell them to grow a pair. Maria's fans are a NON-MOTHA-FUCKIN-FACTOR! In my Evelyn voice! :lol: :haha: :o

I don't know if that poster who said that a shoulder injury is worse than anything Venus and Serena has every faced is a Pova's fan but to say that a shoulder injury is worse than pulmonary embolism is beyond stupid. We should not even try to explain.

dsanders06
Aug 24th, 2011, 12:06 AM
I don't know if that poster who said that a shoulder injury is worse than anything Venus and Serena has every faced is a Pova's fan but to say that a shoulder injury is worse than pulmonary embolism is beyond stupid. We should not even try to explain.

Like I said, a pulmonary embolism is far more acute than shoulder surgery. Do you know what that means?

Pops Maellard
Aug 24th, 2011, 12:10 AM
She can still turn it on at times. Her groundstrokes and returns during this match. :hearts:

SQRkwBbpXfU

dsanders06
Aug 24th, 2011, 12:12 AM
She can still turn it on at times. Her groundstrokes and returns during this match. :hearts:

SQRkwBbpXfU

I remember watching this match and wondering how the hell Pironkova was even top 100 :lol:
Never would I have thought she'd be in a Slam semifinal within 12 months :hysteric:

SoBlackAndBlue
Aug 24th, 2011, 12:17 AM
You might not like it, but that's just the way it is. :shrug: It's simply a fact that no-one has ever got even as far down the comeback trail from such a serious injury as Maria has (and no, no injuries that Serena or Venus have ever had compares).



How about you go and quote one post that says that? :)

*suffers from potentially fatal pulmonary embolism*

*"doesn't compare" to torn rotator cuff*

SoBlackAndBlue
Aug 24th, 2011, 12:20 AM
Like I said, a pulmonary embolism is far more acute than shoulder surgery. Do you know what that means?

A shoulder surgery can't be "acute". Acute and chronic are terms reserved for diseases.

Do YOU know what it means?

dsanders06
Aug 24th, 2011, 12:23 AM
A shoulder surgery can't be "acute". Acute and chronic are terms reserved for diseases.

Do YOU know what it means?

:facepalm:

I said, when talking about the way it affects an athlete, a pulmonary embolism is much more acute (in its effects - i.e. much more serious in the short term, but with FAR weaker long-term effects) than shoulder surgery. As should be obvious to anyone who isn't fishing for semantics to put forward the argument that "Serena Williams is tougher than teh world!!!!111"

s teddy
Aug 24th, 2011, 12:23 AM
I don't know if that poster who said that a shoulder injury is worse than anything Venus and Serena has every faced is a Pova's fan but to say that a shoulder injury is worse than pulmonary embolism is beyond stupid. We should not even try to explain.

Obviously, a pulmonary embolism is more serious than a shoulder injury. No sane person would argue with that. However, we're not talking about general seriousness. This is about how much the conditions/injuries would affect a tennis player. Do you seriously think that a tennis player's performance will be more affected, in the long run, by a cardiovascular condition that does little to no muscle/joint damage than by an injury that almost destroys the most important joint for playing tennis?

*suffers from potentially fatal pulmonary embolism*

*"doesn't compare" to torn rotator cuff*
Since when is a pulmonary embolism an injury?

SoBlackAndBlue
Aug 24th, 2011, 12:32 AM
:facepalm:

I said, when talking about the way it affects an athlete, a pulmonary embolism is much more acute (in its effects - i.e. much more serious in the short term, but with FAR weaker long-term effects) than shoulder surgery. As should be obvious to anyone who isn't fishing for semantics to put forward the argument that "Serena Williams is tougher than teh world!!!!111"


You're using the term wrong, Doogie Howser.

Acute is not a synonym for "short term" or "short lasting". It means "having a short course or a quick onset". Neither of which makes any sense when discussing a medical operation. A shoulder surgery cannot be less acute than anything, anymore so than a movie or a war can be "acute". I truly hope this helps.

Break My Rapture
Aug 24th, 2011, 12:32 AM
She can still turn it on at times. Her groundstrokes and returns during this match. :hearts:

SQRkwBbpXfU
Pironkova's groundstrokes offer zero resillience, this means basically nothing. Maria hasn't played a top player during NY night sessions since 2006.

dsanders06
Aug 24th, 2011, 12:36 AM
You're using the term wrong, Doogie Howser.

Acute is not a synonym for "short term" or "short lasting". It means "having a short course or a quick onset". Neither of which makes any sense when discussing a medical operation. A shoulder surgery cannot be less acute than anything, anymore so than a movie or a war can be "acute". I truly hope this helps.

Oh dear. You realise "acute" is not solely a medical term, and is used in everyday conversation? And I specified I was referring to the impact/effects of both conditions/operations as being acute, not the conditions/operations themselves.

"You tried."

And can I take it from you resorting to semantics, that you agree shoulder surgery has more profound effects in the long term than a pulmonary embolism? :)

SoBlackAndBlue
Aug 24th, 2011, 12:44 AM
Oh dear. You realise "acute" is not solely a medical term, and is used in everyday conversation?

Humor me. Find a definition of acute that makes sense in the cotnext in which you were using it.

And I specified I was referring to the impact/effects of both conditions/operations as being acute, not the conditions/operations themselves.

You corrected yourself you mean. As in, you mistyped, then typed what you *actually* meant later.

And can I take it from you resorting to semantics, that you agree shoulder surgery has more profound effects in the long term than a pulmonary embolism? :)

Until actual sports doctors do studies on it, it remains conjecture.

Seles was robbed of the prime of her career by a relatively minor physical injury that had profound physical effects. Who knows what kind of mental effects the spectre of mortality can have on a person?

I'm not qualified to decide on way or another. And I'd never claim to be, unlike some resident MDs on the board.

dsanders06
Aug 24th, 2011, 12:47 AM
Until actual sports doctors do studies on it, it remains conjecture.

Seles was robbed of the prime of her career by a relatively minor physical injury that had profound physical effects. Who knows what kind of mental effects the spectre of mortality can have on a person?

I'm not qualified to decide on way or another. And I'd never claim to be, unlike some resident MDs on the board.

You mean it had profound psychological effects. :)

SoBlackAndBlue
Aug 24th, 2011, 12:48 AM
You mean it had profound psychological effects. :)

I mistyped. I meant psychological effects, you're right.

See? Admitting a mistake is easy, no?

JJ all the way
Aug 24th, 2011, 01:14 AM
Ahh I have created a monster! All I wanted was to express how sad I was that Masha isnt like before her shoulder problems...

It ended up being a battle zone between serena and maria!!

Also, every athlete gets injured - some deal with it and do well, others get affected - NO NEED TO COMPARE! Just appreciate!

God, some of you need to get laid !

ZODIAC
Aug 24th, 2011, 01:27 AM
I think pova s shoulder is healed,she gets nervous and starts spraying balls and try to tinker with her serve mid match.The post shoulder pova has been humbled by the dfs and ufes...she looks worried everytime she double faults,its now a mental block..

DOUBLEFIST
Aug 24th, 2011, 01:28 AM
I think pova s shoulder is healed,she gets nervous and starts spraying balls and try to tinker with her serve mid match.The post shoulder pova has been humbled by the dfs and ufes...she looks worried everytime she double faults,its now a mental block..
Agreed.

effedcamel
Aug 24th, 2011, 01:38 AM
Ahh I have created a monster! All I wanted was to express how sad I was that Masha isnt like before her shoulder problems...

It ended up being a battle zone between serena and maria!!

Also, every athlete gets injured - some deal with it and do well, others get affected - NO NEED TO COMPARE! Just appreciate!

God, some of you need to get laid !

NO! Your logic makes too much sense. This thread is about spilling vile about Serena and Maria and somehow Mauresmo :mad:

DOUBLEFIST
Aug 24th, 2011, 01:46 AM
It's serious, but not as serious as a shoulder injury for a tennisplayer. That's just the way it is. :shrug:

Wrong.

Serena, at the time of her injury, was reputed to be the fastest, most athletic player on the tour. Believe it or not, it was consider to be her GREATEST weapon then - even more than her serve. Sheer athleticism. Anyone, who's ever played at a high level, agility demanding sport (which I have) like tennis is, knows how devastating a Patella tendon injury is - especially when it's directly connected to your "main" weapon. Ask Ryan Williams of the Arizona Cardinals how serious it is.

And the fact is Serena WASN'T the same when she came back and has NEVER gotten back to that level of movement and, arguably, performance. But...,

...she has ADAPTED.

Her game has evolved/changed to compensate for her diminished movement. I don't know how selective your memory is (though I have an idea ;) ), but Serena did struggle with the recovery for quite some time, again, but...

she returned to the top of the game.

She has MORE than one great weapon, is MORE than one dimensional and just so happens to be an All Time Great.

That is the difference between her and (presently) Maria and why Serena has been able to comeback - if not to her former self - to her dominance and Maria hasn't..., yet.

I am actually one of those Serena fans who believes Maria can be an All Time Great or stand on the doorstep of it. There is still time, but she must find a way to add a dimension to her game that allows her to dominate and compensate for whatever (for why ever) she's lost in serving consistency.

Stop making excuses. It's not about Maria's serve (or the lack thereof). It's about her as a complete player (or the lack thereof).

dsanders06
Aug 24th, 2011, 01:55 AM
Wrong.

Serena, at the time of her injury, was reputed to be the fastest, most athletic player on the tour. Believe it or not, it was consider to be her GREATEST weapon then ...

:happy: I stopped reading there.

Serena was once a great mover, but she was never a great DEFENDER. She could get some amazing retrievals, but she still lost the vast majority of the points when she was put on the defensive because she used to have such poor court sense and court smarts (though they have improved in recent years). She ALWAYS won or lost her matches on the strength or weakness of her serve and groundstrokes.

DOUBLEFIST
Aug 24th, 2011, 02:08 AM
:happy: I stopped reading there.

Serena was once a great mover, but she was never a great DEFENDER. She could get some amazing retrievals, but she still lost the vast majority of the points when she was put on the defensive because she used to have such poor court sense and court smarts (though they have improved in recent years). She ALWAYS won or lost her matches on the strength or weakness of her serve and groundstrokes.
As I said, I had a pretty good idea how "selective" your memory would be. I am surprised, however, at your LACK of reading skills. I said "fastest" and "most athletic." Her "movement," which in tennis is a term that goes beyond speed and athleticism, has ALWAYS been debated, which is why I didn't mention it and apparently why you did - just more evidence of your intellectual dishonesty.

But the fact is, in '02 and '03, you would be hard pressed to find any tennis "expert" that wouldn't say Serena Williams was the "fastest" and "most athletic" woman on the tour. Those two attributes are dependent on a sturdy Patella tendon, no?

But hey, :happy: all you like. It doesn't change what the perception was back in '02, '03. Nor does it help you in the intellectual honesty department. :shrug:

AnomyBC
Aug 24th, 2011, 02:10 AM
I miss her too :sad:

dsanders06
Aug 24th, 2011, 02:17 AM
As I said, I had a pretty good idea how "selective" your memory would be. I am surprised, however, at your LACK of reading skills. I said "fastest" and "most athletic." in '02 and '03, you would be hard pressed to find any tennis "expert" that wouldn't say Serena Williams was the "fastest" and "most athletic" woman on the tour. Those two attributes are dependent on a sturdy Patella tendon, no?

But hey, :haha: all you like. It doesn't change what the perception was back in '02, '03. Nor does it help you in the intellectual honesty department. :shrug:

Firstly, most people even back in 2002/03 would've said Clijsters and Henin were "faster" and "more athletic" than Serena, and hell probably Venus was moreso too.

Secondly, you said her athleticism was her main weapon, which simply isn't true. Raw footspeed means little in tennis if you don't have actual defensive skills to make that footspeed effective. James Blake is one of the "fastest" men to have ever played tennis, but he was still regarded as a piss-poor defender... and it's the same with even peak Serena to a lesser extent.

So no, you can't draw a parallel between Serena's knee injury and Maria's shoulder injury, because Serena's game was simply never based around her movement. If Serena had torn her rotator cuff, she would probably have declined from her peak to just as great an extent as Maria did, no matter how much "adapting" she tried to do. She was simply never going to be able to transform into a "pusher" and have success. Remember, there's a clear precedent for shoulder surgery causing a precipitous decline, chief among them being Andrea Jaeger and Capriati who fell from the top of the sport to suddenly not being able to play at all, and no precedents for the opposite ... whereas there are LOADS of examples of players who had knee surgery getting back to their best within 2-3 years, including Lindsay Davenport.

DOUBLEFIST
Aug 24th, 2011, 02:27 AM
Firstly, most people even back in 2002/03 would've said Clijsters and Henin were "faster"...
:spit: ...And here is where I stopped reading.

I now know you weren't following tennis then, because that is simply NOT what they were saying. You couldn't have been following the game then to make such a statement. This will be the last I say to you on the subject. :wavey:

Polikarpov
Aug 24th, 2011, 02:36 AM
I actually watched a few highlight reels of her 2006 matches. I miss her relentlessness off ground and the conviction she had in every shot she hit. Just completely different player from the one we see today.

gc-spurs
Aug 24th, 2011, 02:43 AM
A shoulder surgery can't be "acute". Acute and chronic are terms reserved for diseases.

Do YOU know what it means?

Um acute and chronic aren't just for diseases... Chronic back pain anyone? Chronic ankle pain? Acute wrist injury?

dsanders06
Aug 24th, 2011, 02:48 AM
:spit: ...And here is where I stopped reading.

I now know you weren't following tennis then, because that is simply NOT what they were saying. You couldn't have been following the game then to make such a statement. This will be the last I say to you on the subject. :wavey:

Actually, I did follow tennis then. I just got my tennis analysis from sources other than notoriously biased American commentators :shrug:

SoBlackAndBlue
Aug 24th, 2011, 02:56 AM
Um acute and chronic aren't just for diseases... Chronic back pain anyone? Chronic ankle pain? Acute wrist injury?

From wikipedia:

A disease is an abnormal condition affecting the body of an organism.

Wrist pain, or the condition that causes the pain, is a disease. Just like hypothermia is a disease.

You're probably thinking of disease in the context of infectious disease; that is, disease caused by pathogens.

harloo
Aug 24th, 2011, 03:03 AM
I miss peak 2001-02 Venus. She played her best tennis dominating the field winning the US Open and Wimbledon titles back to back.

I miss peak 2002-03 Serena where she completed the Serena Slam, defeated every obstacle in front of her, won the YEC, and crowned year end #1.

Do you see where this can go? We can apply this same theory to nearly every multiple slam winner. Every elite player has a period where they're playing the best tennis of their life and the wins are coming easy. However, the quality of a champion isn't determined by how they perform during peak years but instead how they fight and persevere when that high level is no longer there.

Of course Maria's shoulder was problematic in some of her loses in the past but anybody deluded enough to believe it's the reason her level has dropped now is simply looking for excuses. If you've watched Maria live as of late during a match her confidence comes and goes. One minute she'll hit a few aces or get some good second serves in but once her opponent puts up any type of resistance she can't get one in. That's followed with a worried look on her face and then she starts double faulting for no reason at all. She can indeed scrape past mentally weak players who will just implode when things get tight. But when she's facing someone who isn't afraid to hit winners and serve decently it's lights out for her.

Mikey.
Aug 24th, 2011, 03:05 AM
Why is this Veerror person so obsessed with Maria? He posts 30x as much as I do and I'm actually a Maria fan :help:

IKR :lol:

JJ all the way
Aug 24th, 2011, 04:33 AM
Of course Maria's shoulder was problematic in some of her loses in the past but anybody deluded enough to believe it's the reason her level has dropped now is simply looking for excuses. If you've watched Maria live as of late during a match her confidence comes and goes. One minute she'll hit a few aces or get some good second serves in but once her opponent puts up any type of resistance she can't get one in. That's followed with a worried look on her face and then she starts double faulting for no reason at all. She can indeed scrape past mentally weak players who will just implode when things get tight. But when she's facing someone who isn't afraid to hit winners and serve decently it's lights out for her.

I think you are insulting a large fan base with this comment - and I am not even a Sharapova fan (as indicated by my avatar) although I do appreciate her tennis and fight.

If you just look at her serve alone, you can see how the power in her serve has dropped over the years and that has nothing to do with anything but problems with her shoulder. The service motion that she used to have had to be changed because of the problems it was creating on her shoulder, thus creating a less effective and inconsistent serve.

Problems with her shoulder obviously led to lack of confidence as well, but the root of her problem was the injury changing her game.

bandabou
Aug 24th, 2011, 06:22 AM
Probably to some extent in the short term, although the meat and potatoes of Serena's game was always her serve and groundstrokes which aren't affected by knee surgery, and in any case knee surgery doesn't cause such a great loss of sensation in that joint as shoulder surgery does.

Fair enough..or we just have to admit that Maria wasn't THAT good to begin with. Her results were always gonna depend on the form of Henin/Serena, Kim on HC's and Vee on grass.

Now if you wanna discuss what's stopping her from winning in generation-suck era, thennnnn..we can start talking.

bandabou
Aug 24th, 2011, 06:25 AM
:help: At all the hype surrounding Maria's surgery which she herself admitted as being "minor" :tape:

Sure it is the worst place to be injured for a tennis player, (in fact I would possibly put a back injury like Safina's as more career threatening than Maria's minor tear) but some Maria fans really are clutching at straws here.

Her FH and BH are executed in practically the same way as they were in 2006 (minus the lasso whip). She has tweaked her serve slightly to reduce the stress on her shoulder as a precaution - but that still isn't the reason for her shitty serve. Her reluctancy to add more spin to her second serve or take a bit off the first is the reason for the DF fests we have to endure. The DFs coming at crucial moments in a match also make it more of a mental thing.

If a player is intent on going for broke on their second serve then some DFs are to be expected. You can't try and serve two first serves then blame shoulder surgery when the second doesn't go in :tape:

The only thing I would say is that the injury has possibly taken a hit at her confidence on her strokes - but this is universal for any player coming back after an injury.

Exactly..good points. Sharapova just isn't willing/ unable to adapt to a new reality. Dsanders says that Serena's injury was nothing, but she still had to adapt to the loss of footspeed. That's what great champs do.

VeeJJ
Aug 24th, 2011, 06:25 AM
didn't maria say that she was getting injections for pain during AO 2088 in her shoulder?

And the tour misses Maria post shoulder injury.

bandabou
Aug 24th, 2011, 06:38 AM
I'm sorry but, how the hell did this thread manage to get WS involved? It's getting sort of annoying right now.

Sharapova fans to blame..don't talk about the Williamses, don't try to compare Maria to them, ' cause it's a losing battle.

bandabou
Aug 24th, 2011, 06:42 AM
Firstly, most people even back in 2002/03 would've said Clijsters and Henin were "faster" and "more athletic" than Serena, and hell probably Venus was moreso too.

Secondly, you said her athleticism was her main weapon, which simply isn't true. Raw footspeed means little in tennis if you don't have actual defensive skills to make that footspeed effective. James Blake is one of the "fastest" men to have ever played tennis, but he was still regarded as a piss-poor defender... and it's the same with even peak Serena to a lesser extent.

So no, you can't draw a parallel between Serena's knee injury and Maria's shoulder injury, because Serena's game was simply never based around her movement. If Serena had torn her rotator cuff, she would probably have declined from her peak to just as great an extent as Maria did, no matter how much "adapting" she tried to do. She was simply never going to be able to transform into a "pusher" and have success. Remember, there's a clear precedent for shoulder surgery causing a precipitous decline, chief among them being Andrea Jaeger and Capriati who fell from the top of the sport to suddenly not being able to play at all, and no precedents for the opposite ... whereas there are LOADS of examples of players who had knee surgery getting back to their best within 2-3 years, including Lindsay Davenport.

:lol: You know what the thing is?! Peak Serena COULDN'T be put on the defensive, that's why people don't talk so much about her defense. Kim IS a defensive player by nature, so it might LOOK like she's a better defensive player than Serena...because she's on the defense all the time.

But if we're talking about gets?! Serena could go make gets with the best of them, on those rare ocasions that she was put on the defense. THAT's the difference.

Now, gets that Serena used to make...she isn't making them anymore. Why do you think Elena D all of sudden started beating Serena? Because Serena couldn't win the race-track battle anymore on a consistent basis.

SymphonyX
Aug 24th, 2011, 09:13 AM
Live with it. The Pova we have now is but a second rate clone. She has absolutely none of the resolve and conviction the original had.

SU
Aug 24th, 2011, 09:49 AM
If you just look at her serve alone, you can see how the power in her serve has dropped over the years and that has nothing to do with anything but problems with her shoulder. The service motion that she used to have had to be changed because of the problems it was creating on her shoulder, thus creating a less effective and inconsistent serve.

There we go again, tennis is not all about power serve, what about the other elements of it? all these excuses shows that maria is not as good as people seems to think, she is a one dimentional player like a robot, once you desconnect the elctronic part of it she collapses.

Problems with her shoulder obviously led to lack of confidence as well, but the root of her problem was the injury changing her game.[/QUOTE]

More than a year back shouldn't the confidence element back by now. Doen't she have professioanl therapist.

CoolDude7
Aug 24th, 2011, 04:55 PM
You can not quantify or rank ANY players injury and say it is worse than the next because you simply do not know how it affects their game. On the surface, what may seem like a minor injury could totally ruin a players career and what seems like a major one could do little damage. All we can do is try to understand and be there for the players. What is sad is how the media disregard certain players injuries (for example) Safina had a MAJOR back injury that crippled her more so than maria and it is yet known whether or not she will ever be able to play top level tennis again. Her injury was not talked about hardly, they just would occasionally say she had an injury with the passing wind as if it were nothing, and proclaimed it was all mental. Forget hitting a ball, she couldn't stand being on court her back hurt her so much. Yet her beatdowns were talked about over and over and she was given little lead way. I have no problem with them mentioning maria's injury, but i have a problem with them not being fair across the board. Safina was on her way to becoming mult-slam winner yet she will be remembered for not being mentally tough when she was one of the toughest players to close when she was on top (yes, she got destroyed by serena and venus but almost all the players have) The way she would come back in matches was amazing.