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ma re
May 20th, 2011, 12:21 PM
Hy all:wavey:

Due to a recent incident in Brussels, involving several OOP's posted by several players, it's time we specify the details of rules in regard to posting Order of play.

Without further dragging the story of who did what and who is to blame, I'll focus here only on the existing problem. So...

One suggestion (I think it was made by coolfish1103) was that we don't even post official OOP in the tipping thread of a tournament, and that we just let people find OOP for themselves. I don't think this is a good idea actually, for several reasons. First of all, some players are new to the forum and don't know much about tennis, so they could have a tough time finding trustworthy information (as this incident showed, even some tipping regulars can sometimes source incorrect information). Also, if every player would be forced to find daily OOP for him/herself, that would require additional work for the players, so many could lose interest in the game as doing this would take away more of their time. All in all, we have always posted OOP, and I think we should continue with that.

My suggestion is that for each tournament we establish not only the moderator/manager, but also the co-manager, someone who would help out the manager with things like the OOP. It would be someone chosen by the manager personally, and someone in whom he/she has enough trust of being able to do a good job.

We should also specify sources from which managers should take OOP's. My suggestion is quite obvious, that the mandatory source should be the WTA website, that the alternative source should be the tournament website, and that only if neither of those is accessible or has an OOP posted, the moderator should be allowed to choose where he gets it from.

Another idea that I have is that we establish a rule by which official OOP should always be posted on the first page of the thread (in a reserved post). Another OOP (provided by the co-manager) could be posted anywhere in the trhead, but the official one should always be in the same post, so that players can easily find it.

So, tell me what do you think about all this, wether you have some other ideas, should we do some things differently etc. Every idea will be open for discussion.

Take care and enjoy the game!

Håkon
May 20th, 2011, 12:29 PM
One suggestion (I think it was made by coolfish1103) was that we don't even post official OOP in the tipping thread of a tournament, and that we just let people find OOP for themselves.

I think coolfish' suggestion was 'only the manager' posts OOP. Then at least we know who to blame. :p If you want to tip before the manager posts, then you need to find the OOP.

Sasja argued against that (http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=433792&page=16) in the Brussel thread, saying that managers can't be online all the time and therefore it's easier if other people help out, but the counterargument is that OOPs can be corrected on websites and therefore you don't need to be online until say 1-2 hours after the OOP is posted, when we probably know it's correct. As long as you're online in the evening of the match that's probably ok - and if you can't then just give the responsibility to someone else - that'll be where your idea of a co-manager comes in I guess.

The source idea is also good. Maybe try to link when you source it, too, somewhat like this:


OOP Friday (PDF) (http://www.wtatennis.com/SEWTATour-Archive/posting/2011/1046/OP.pdf)
Péng vs Zvonaryova
Wozniacki vs Schiavone


so people can check for themselves and scream if there's something wrong.

Oh, and ma re: thanks for always trying to make the game better :)

Miracle Worker
May 20th, 2011, 01:58 PM
:scratch:

I think in almost every tournament we have special post for something like OOP - I use something like this, and I noticed that almost everyone use special post for OOP too. I agree with Sasja, that manager usually doesn't spend his/her all evening to check if new OOP is published. In normal conditions someone posts OOP, and it's enough (and manager later just confirms it). In my tournaments I didn't notice few extra OOPs.

I think that Brussels was bad exception. We can simply authorize few players to post OOP e.g. Sasja or Spain are usually very fast...

ma re
May 20th, 2011, 02:17 PM
Or here's a crazy idea...actually it's not crazy at all and it would make the game much easier for the manager, as well as for the players. Manager simply just posts the entire draw of the tournament in one of the posts on the first page, and players send picks for the whole rounds. In case a change in the draw happens, the manager simply edits that post as soon as he/she can. In case a player wants to change one or more of his picks, he simply says that in an additional post. We count points on a day by day basis, like we did so far, eventhough people have posted for the entire round. Of course, manager edits the draw post after each round, so that people know the match-ups of the following round.

?!

Sasja
May 20th, 2011, 04:55 PM
I believe the "Brussel-OOP" was an incident, a little mistake. I can't remember we had any problems before. And ma re handled it very well :worship: Also it were only 2 1st round matches (2 points total) and no one benefit from this. It's just a game we play for fun. But I do think we should try and find a solution to prevent something like this from happening again.

I agree that posting the OOP on the 1st page of the thread is good. I know most of us do that anyway. For me personally I do it so people do not have to search for it.

If I'm running tournaments in Australia for example I wouldn't be able to post the OOP first because of the time difference, most likely I will still be sleeping at that time ;)
An assistant manager would be good. Someone who can help out posting the OOP. If you don't think you can post the OOP for the next day early, you can ask in the tournament thread or PM him/her and ask to post the OOP.

Or here a crazy idea...actually it's not crazy at all and it would make the game much easier for the manager, as well as for the players. Manager simply just posts the entire draw of the tournament in one of the posts on the first page, and players send picks for the whole rounds. In case a change in the draw happens, the manager simply edits that posts as soon as he/she can. In case a player wants to change one or more of his picks, he simply says that in an additional post. We count points on a day by day basis, like we did so far, eventhough people have posted for the entire round. Of course, manager edits the draw post after each round, so that people know the match-ups of the following round. ?!

This is not a crazy idea ma re :p I think it is a really good idea. Tipping per round instead of per day.
The only thing is that sometimes on Monday we have a few MD matches as well as final qualifying round.....or there have been tournaments when on a day the remaining 1st round matches will be played as well as some 2nd round matches. So not all 1st round winners are known.

Winners for 1st round matches with qualifiers can be picked on day 2. And if you change the thread title with "qualifiers have been placed" or something like that players can post picks for these matches on the next day. If we can solve when different rounds are played on the same day, this is good solution.

Also I think it's good, because some players sometimes forget to post their picks on a day. And with picking per round I think it will be easier for them.

Payam
May 21st, 2011, 12:08 AM
I believe assistant manager would be a good idea and you can organize them according to the continents. For instance, I am in NZ and I can help with Auckland/AO and all the other tournaments in Australia. I think there are enough people all around the globe who are willing to help.

ma re
May 21st, 2011, 08:05 AM
So far I have to say I like the tipping per round idea the best. So since I'm running RG, I'll do it like that but leave to players the choice of voting per round or per day. In other words, I will accept both ways, but I will only post (and update) the draw and leave it to people to find OOP themselves if they want to vote per day.

ronim1
May 21st, 2011, 04:43 PM
When the whole tipping games started, it was per day, and believe me it was much worse than today.

As mentioned the problems happen usually first couple of days, as LL get into the MD, and not all Tipping players catch up upon those changes, thus placing the draw earlier, and than changing it is like like changing the OOPs.

I think we should keep this game as simple as possible.
The official post of the manager should be the one considered in any case of arguments.
If he/she will be able to update it on time, good, if not we'll won't take those matches into account.
It is the responsibility of the players to look for updates.
As tournaments are spread all over the world, sometimes players from the east will have it easier with the time, and other times from the west.

ma re
May 21st, 2011, 05:25 PM
...thus placing the draw earlier, and than changing it is like like changing the OOPs.

I agree, that's why in Roland Garros, I'll post the draw, but I won't be modifying it, I'll just change it for every round. The only changes to the draw would be adding qualifiers once they are known (and at the time of this post they are already known). We already established that only the initial matches will count and not any that involve LL's (pre-match retirements/withdrawals) so there's no risk of problems in that regard. Let's consider this Roland Garros as an experiment and see how it goes. Will it be easier or harder for the players and for the manager. I really wanted to make sure that something similar to Brussels doesn't happen in Paris, so I had to decide as soon as possible, cause the play starts tomorrow and I didn't have a lot of time to do everything due to other "chores" (helping out in Brussels, updating the rankings...). Hope it all goes well.

WhoAmI?
May 21st, 2011, 06:57 PM
I don't really like the idea of tipping a whole round at the time. There could be changes in the draw (withdrawal, placing the qualifiers etc), I know those are likely to happen in the beginning of the tournament, but still I don't want to check back and forth making the changes.

And also, some tournaments have a weird scheduling, where there are some 2nd round matches played earlier than some 1st round ones. In this case is definitely much easier to tip on daily bases, and is less confusing.

Besides, when I started this game, people found the OOPs themselves, if someone posted it in the game thread it was because they were nice.

So, I think manager should post the OOP in the first page of the thread, and update the thread title accordingly (example: Thursday's OOP in post #2). Until the manager hasn't posted the official OOP, players can find it for themselves and post their picks, but not the OOP.

ma re
May 21st, 2011, 07:08 PM
I don't really like the idea of tipping a whole round at the time. There could be changes in the draw (withdrawal, placing the qualifiers etc), I know those are likely to happen in the beginning of the tournament, but still I don't want to check back and forth making the changes.

You won't have to, because ONLY INITIAL MATCHES COUNT FOR POINTS. Matches where people witdraw etc. won't count.

And also, some tournaments have a weird scheduling, where there are some 2nd round matches played earlier than some 1st round ones. In this case is definitely much easier to tip on daily bases, and is less confusing.

If you tipp for the whole round, that's actually less confusing - you just post for the whole round and let the manager count points after each day.

Besides, when I started this game, people found the OOPs themselves, if someone posted it in the game thread it was because they were nice.

So, I think manager should post the OOP in the first page of the thread, and update the thread title accordingly (example: Thursday's OOP in post #2). Until the manager hasn't posted the official OOP, players can find it for themselves and post their picks, but not the OOP.

I can't afford another epic saga and mega drama like the one in Brussels, and I especially can't let it happen on a grand slam. Too much points is at stake. Several people pulled out of a tournament because of it and something obviously needed to be done to prevent it from happening again. Besides, I said I will only try it in Paris and we'll see how it goes. If many people protest during this tournament we'll probably go back to how things were before or include some changes to the "old way". Now we have two weeks to figure things out.

WhoAmI?
May 21st, 2011, 07:29 PM
And also, some tournaments have a weird scheduling, where there are some 2nd round matches played earlier than some 1st round ones. In this case is definitely much easier to tip on daily bases, and is less confusing.

If you tipp for the whole round, that's actually less confusing - you just post for the whole round and let the manager count points after each day.

Well, you see you can't possibly tip the whole round at once if the matches from different rounds happen in the same day. There still are some matches for the 2nd round, some for the 3rd round.

You can always link to WTA official site for OOP (http://www.wtatennis.com/page/OrderOfPlay/0,,12781,00.html), or like I said have just the manager to post it.

It's very unfortunate what happened in Brussels, and I'm sorry for my mistake, I shouldn't have been so eager to post the OOP.

Good luck anyway.

ronim1
May 21st, 2011, 08:12 PM
I have no protest on who and to publish the OOP ( or draw).
I strongly am against tipping rounds instead of days, because this will make the scores and whole picture more complicated.

Let's enjoy RG.

legionmx
May 22nd, 2011, 03:54 AM
I think that the best solution is the most simple. As I already said in the Brussels thread, people should wait for a manager or co-manager to post the OOP, or tip under their own risk.

I think there you should be at least 3 persons authorized to post OOP's: the manager, a co-manager, and an official OOP poster. Either the manager can specifically ask the other two to fill in for him/her, or it could be established that the if no OOP is posted, any of them can post the official OOP. If posters that are not authorized to post OOPs want to post their tips, they could do so under their own risk, understanding that only the matches in the official OOP are going to be considered for points.

I feel ambiguous about the tip per round system. I think it is a good way for people who do not look up OOPs on their own to tip freely and not be bother with possibles changes. It is also a good way to have an early "official" knowing about which matches will be counted. In this way, it is a good safety net against things like the Brussels incident.

Having said that, I think the OOP system is better, and I will personally use the tip by day option.

I think ma re solution was good, in the way that it provides a safety net, and is a more flexible way to tip. I still think that the 'official OOP's posters' solution is the ideal one.

BlackPanther.
May 22nd, 2011, 04:42 AM
I'm agree with the manager and co-manager idea. :yeah:
(Shame on me, I didn't notice any kind of problem with the OOP in Brussels) :sobbing:

*Jean*
May 22nd, 2011, 06:03 AM
I will play on a day to day basis, even if I have to be alone with this.

ronim1
May 22nd, 2011, 08:00 AM
I will play on a day to day basis, even if I have to be alone with this.

You are not alone.

ma re, I'm sure that you have noticed the confusion for this tourney.

Some people, like me, postes day by day- some have posted 16 matches, others 17.

Poeple who have posted all matches, will probabely not notice if there will be any change in the other days of the first round.

But hey, as I said before, let's have fun. :D

ma re
May 22nd, 2011, 08:14 AM
Well, you see you can't possibly tip the whole round at once if the matches from different rounds happen in the same day. There still are some matches for the 2nd round, some for the 3rd round.

You're missing something here. If say, on a given day there are

2 remaining matches of R2
5 matches of R3

...you wouldn't be bothered by that cause you would've already tipped the whole R2 the day before anyway, and now you'd tipp for the whole R3. Manager's job would be to sort out which of your tipps are for which day i.e. how much you've scored on a given day.

---

Anyway folks, I see we have some very good ideas that would not be difficult to implement. Let's see if people will come up with more of them and we'll see which ones do we like most (in a few days I'll make a poll for the sake of reaching a democratic decision:D). The decision we make will be used as a rule for future tournaments, but let's just leave this choice of per round/per day tipping for Roland Garros, just so that we don't end up with some mess again - cause the one in a slam could be of enormous proportions considering the size of the draw and the number of players.

WhoAmI?
May 22nd, 2011, 08:36 AM
Okay, so now it's known Kleybanova has withdrawn from RG (it was already known on Saturday night European time).

Instead of Kleybanova vs Llagostera Vives, it's Pivovarova vs Llagostera Vives. The OOP in the front page still has Kleybanova in the draw, isn't it going to count? Because I think there have been enough time to change it, this match will probably be played on Monday. (Day by day playing would avoid this situation)

And one more thing I'd like to suggest, if the posters see there's a mistake somewhere, they can always send a PM to the poster that made the mistake, so it could be fixed.

ma re
May 22nd, 2011, 09:12 AM
Okay, so now it's known Kleybanova has withdrawn from RG (it was already known on Saturday night European time).

Instead of Kleybanova vs Llagostera Vives, it's Pivovarova vs Llagostera Vives. The OOP in the front page still has Kleybanova in the draw, isn't it going to count? Because I think there have been enough time to change it, this match will probably be played on Monday. (Day by day playing would avoid this situation)

I already posted in the Roland Garros thread (Ralph214 mentioned it) saying that this match will not count, cause several people already posted by the time this change was announced and I can't be sure if I'll be able to contact these people in time. And if I can't, they'd get damaged with this change. Besides, we established even before Brussels that only the initial matches count.

WhoAmI?
May 22nd, 2011, 09:26 AM
Of course the initial matches should count, but this change was made over 24h before the match would take place, thus I actually disagree about not counting it, because there was enough time to announce about the change (it would be different case if this match was supposed to be played today, and the announcement came yesterday). It's not even about sending a PM to the users that already made their picks, but announcing it in the thread title, and fixing the draw accordingly. I guess it's too late for this now.

ronim1
May 23rd, 2011, 08:38 AM
Of course the initial matches should count, but this change was made over 24h before the match would take place, thus I actually disagree about not counting it, because there was enough time to announce about the change (it would be different case if this match was supposed to be played today, and the announcement came yesterday). It's not even about sending a PM to the users that already made their picks, but announcing it in the thread title, and fixing the draw accordingly. I guess it's too late for this now.

I kind of agree. Let's announce,that if a change is published in the threat -24 hours -( or any other time agreed upon ), the match should be counted,

ma re
Jun 3rd, 2011, 12:08 PM
Back to this thread again.

I know I mentioned a poll about matters discussed here, but I honestly can't think of a good poll question, that would sum up all this and help us make some decisions.

I like the idea of a co-manager, but not really the idea of an "official OOP poster", cause this person would have to be around for every day of every tournament, throught the whole season - and I don't think we can find someone with so much spare time. Co-manager should IMO be someone chosen by the manager of the tournament in question, someone he/she trusts enough that this person will do a good job and be responsible for his/her actions. This co-manager should reserve one post on the first page, so that he/she can post OOP's if the manager can't do it or doesn't do it right - post must be reserved because no poster can edit someone else's post (i.e. the co-manager can't edit something that manager posts).

We should also by all means stick to the rule of only initial matches counting, cause we simply cannot predict exceptions or even know the exact time a certain match will be played (if it'll be tomorrow, or the day after...). Accepting changes that happen a certain number of hours before the match would just add a lot of confusion, and several people already said that they don't like to constantly check if there have been updates to the OOP, once they've already posted their picks.

So, any opinions on these points? Should we go with the co-manager idea in the next tournament already?

P. S. I have to say that allowing people to post for the entire round (if they choose to do so) made my life easier during the French Open. Scheduling for grand slams is pretty straightforward anyway, so this reduces the number of individual posts and the number of times the manager has to check for new posts. Maybe we should allow this for grand slams?