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View Full Version : Was 'now' supposed to be Maria's time....


MakarovaFan
May 5th, 2011, 10:15 PM
This isnt a bashing thread nor a stan thread but honestly looking back,does anybody else think that these past few years should have been "prime" Maria's time to really stand out and dominate the sport?? Henin gone,Mauresmo gone,Serena and Kim part time players and the tour being full on mental midgets and random streak players.

Back when Maria burst on the tour she was a very consistent top player but more often than not one of the Henin/Mauresmo/Clijsters group would always block her(Slam SFs, number 1 rank etc). And then when she finally figured those players out Serena was back as well as a few new faces.It just seems to me back when she was a teenager,though a superb player, she always had the more experienced, faster and versatile triple threat in front of her but once those players were gone then it seemed it would have been her unrivaled time to shine. But given her 2008 start/form and the state of womens tennis recently how many people would have predicted come 2011 Maria would only have 3 slams??? Honestly speaking if Maria were to find her form of old(which before haters chirp in,she was very close to last summer) i really think she would be dominating the tour(and unlike Woz,the majors as well).

I know injuries,and time away from the tour are unfortunate and have stopped reasonably some of the best potential era for players(Seles in 93-95, S&V in 03/04) but its also part of the sport. :(

Nicolás89
May 5th, 2011, 10:26 PM
Now that I think about it, yes this was supposed to be Maria's time but a better blonde came out, so.....:angel:

Stonerpova
May 5th, 2011, 10:48 PM
After her 2008 start I figured Maria would win 2 or 3 majors that year and take over #1. It's gonna take her a while longer to get back to best, but she's only 24, and who knows, the age of Maria may still be in the cards. I think if she can regain consistency on her serve and the pop on her groundstrokes these disappointments will all be worth it, because I feel they've made Maria a better competitor.

18majors
May 5th, 2011, 11:05 PM
Maria was younger than Wozniacki today when she won her third slam at 2008 Australian Open. It's tough to believe at that time that she would fail to win another slam more than 3 years later.

Unfortunately, injuries and time away from tennis are all part of the game.

However, she can still do it and I wish her the best!

Smitten
May 6th, 2011, 12:39 AM
This isnt a bashing thread nor a stan thread but honestly looking back,does anybody else think that these past few years should have been "prime" Maria's time to really stand out and dominate the sport?? Henin gone,Mauresmo gone,Serena and Kim part time players and the tour being full on mental midgets and random streak players.

Back when Maria burst on the tour she was a very consistent top player but more often than not one of the Henin/Mauresmo/Clijsters group would always block her(Slam SFs, number 1 rank etc). And then when she finally figured those players out Serena was back as well as a few new faces.It just seems to me back when she was a teenager,though a superb player, she always had the more experienced, faster and versatile triple threat in front of her but once those players were gone then it seemed it would have been her unrivaled time to shine. But given her 2008 start/form and the state of womens tennis recently how many people would have predicted come 2011 Maria would only have 3 slams??? Honestly speaking if Maria were to find her form of old(which before haters chirp in,she was very close to last summer) i really think she would be dominating the tour(and unlike Woz,the majors as well).

I know injuries,and time away from the tour are unfortunate and have stopped reasonably some of the best potential era for players(Seles in 93-95, S&V in 03/04) but its also part of the sport. :(

Sharapova never figured Mauresmo out.

BuTtErFrEnA
May 6th, 2011, 12:43 AM
she didn't exactly figure any of the ones stopping her...probably only jh since she beat her twice on the way to slams...


but i can't say for sure this was her time...there was always the possibility that someone could come out just like she did who was as consistent/better mover/harder hitter...unfortunately one injury gave her mentality a hit and she's not the same....:shrug:

ptkten
May 6th, 2011, 01:11 AM
I'm not a fan but there's no denying that if Maria hadn't been injured she likely would have filled this void by winning many big titles. Kim and Serena would have still been tough outs at the majors so I don't know how many majors she would have won, but in my opinion there's no question she would have won alot of the big titles on the regular tour.

Matt01
May 6th, 2011, 01:34 AM
Sharapova never figured Mauresmo out.


Or Henin.

MakarovaFan
May 6th, 2011, 01:56 AM
Sharapova never figured Mauresmo out.
Umm im sure the pair of bagels she feed then world NUMBER 1 in a GS SF of all places accounted for figuring her out!

thrust
May 6th, 2011, 01:59 AM
Or Henin.

I think the problem with Maria is that, when she first won her Slams, her body was not mature enough to support her power style of play. By the time her body matured the damage had been done to her shoulder, which caused her to be a part time player. If she were at her near peak now, she may have dominated this year and after Wimbledon last year. Unless she gets better physical therapy and coaching Maria will never win another slam, unless of course, the WTA siks to another new low.

MakarovaFan
May 6th, 2011, 02:06 AM
Or Henin.
How so.... going into the end of Justine's first career(which is the era upon which this thread is based) they split their last 4 meetings(and Maria was 5 points from taking a 3rd match making that 3/4 wins in her favor) with Maria taking both the GS matchups lol :rolleyes: .
-And last year ,to be fair neither player was near their best, but Maria ON CLAY very nearly beat Justine at RG.

Volcana
May 6th, 2011, 02:40 AM
This isnt a bashing thread ...... the tour being full on mental midgets and random streak players.Okay, so what's your idea of a 'bashing' thread? "The tour is full of terrorists and child molesters?"

Smitten
May 6th, 2011, 03:05 AM
Umm im sure the pair of bagels she feed then world NUMBER 1 in a GS SF of all places accounted for figuring her out!

Yes she beat Mauresmo on her worst surface in three sets. This does not constitute figuring Mauresmo out.

Mauresmo was in questionable form for the entire post Wimbledon hardcourt swing and had dropped a set earlier in the tournament to Santangelo(if I remember) of all people and got bageled by fat Serena Williams.

Mauresmo was a very uncomfortable matchup for Maria. Not giving her any pace to work with and constantly changing the height and spin of the ball while maintaining adequate pressure by coming forward.

SymphonyX
May 6th, 2011, 04:15 AM
Sharapova's too physically fragile. Everyone figured out in 2008 that if Sharapova played the rest of the year like she did the Australian Open, she would have dominated the tour that year. Alas, injury took a toll on her.

justineheninfan
May 6th, 2011, 06:11 AM
How so.... going into the end of Justine's first career(which is the era upon which this thread is based) they split their last 4 meetings(and Maria was 5 points from taking a 3rd match making that 3/4 wins in her favor) with Maria taking both the GS matchups lol :rolleyes: .
-And last year ,to be fair neither player was near their best, but Maria ON CLAY very nearly beat Justine at RG.

Justine is 7-3 overall against Sharapova. She even leads Sharapova 4-3 on Maria's best surface of hard courts, while on clay it is a 3-0, 6-1 in sets blowout. When both were in their primes hard courts were a toss up with Justine winning more often than Maria in fact (4-2 to Justine if we consider 05-07 their mutual prime), and clay was Justine predictably schooling Maria the couple times they met. In most significantly in Maria's best year ever- 2006, Justine still led the head to head 3-1 without a single clay matchup. Maria won the biggest match in the U.S Open final, but Justine still won almost as big of matches with the 2006 Australian Open semis and the 2006 WTA Championships semis which decided the year end #1 between the two. Justine also beat Maria in the 2007 WTA Championships final before Maria's final win at the 2008 Australian Open in the quarters. Maria never had back to back wins over Henin, in fact between each of the 3 wins is multiple losses in a row. There is no doubt Justine always had the edge in the overall matchup.

justineheninfan
May 6th, 2011, 06:15 AM
Back to the thread topic it is an interesting question. I dont think Maria was ever going to totally dominate though. Even if the last few years were pretty open you still had Serena winning 5 slams, Kim winning 2 U.S opens and 2 WTA Championships, Venus winning Wimbledon and contending at every Wimbledon and U.S Open. The only slams not won by the Serena/Venus/Clijsters trio were the 3 French Opens which Maria is never a good shot to win regardless of her form or the field. Had she stayed healthy she might have been #1 and won several more slams though and been sitting at even as much as 6. It is hard to say. She was never going to dominate the way Serena or even Henin had though. She isnt a winner on clay, on grass she wasnt up with the Williams ever again after 2004, and there are still were always people around who could beat her even on hard courts.

Andy.
May 6th, 2011, 06:19 AM
Why do people have to keep bringing this up. Yes this could have been Masha's time but we all know what happened with her shoulder. Its a mirracle she is even out there playing. No player has ever come back after suffering from this injury. Masha may never win a slam again but her fans are just happy she is out there fighting and giving it her all unlike others who have given up after hitting a few speed humps.

bandabou
May 6th, 2011, 06:25 AM
Maria's time waa always gonna be after after WS/Belgians were gone. That was a given. Serena at majors is too much for ANYBODY to handle, Juju vs Masha on clay is a mismatch, Maria ain't beating Venus on grass..soo there you've it. Not much room for her to really rack up the majors, no?

A shame that her shoulder got injured..because with the tour now, she really would've been the clear alpha-female.

Mr.Sharapova
May 6th, 2011, 06:44 AM
Why do people have to keep bringing this up. Yes this could have been Masha's time but we call know what happened with her shoulder. Its a mirracle she is even out there playing. No player has ever come back after suffering from this injury. Masha may never win a slam again but her fans are just happy she is out there fighting and giving it her all unlike others who have given up after hitting a few speed humps.

This.

I Personally Am happy to see Maria play. I don't care if she wins or looses as long as she is playing. Of course the expectations for her are high, but I just want to see her play for a few more years and thats all :angel:

Matt01
May 6th, 2011, 11:51 AM
How so.... going into the end of Justine's first career(which is the era upon which this thread is based) they split their last 4 meetings(and Maria was 5 points from taking a 3rd match making that 3/4 wins in her favor) with Maria taking both the GS matchups lol :rolleyes: .
-And last year ,to be fair neither player was near their best, but Maria ON CLAY very nearly beat Justine at RG.


If, if, if :rolleyes:

Please get your facts right. Henin won 3 of their last 4 meetings, or 3 of their last 5, or 7 of their last 9.

Henin owns Pova. Period.

BuTtErFrEnA
May 6th, 2011, 12:12 PM
Umm im sure the pair of bagels she feed then world NUMBER 1 in a GS SF of all places accounted for figuring her out!

but isn't she losing the h-2-h? losing in a wimbledon sf?

tonybotz
May 6th, 2011, 12:29 PM
i think Sharapova's "time" was from 17-22. She was moving much better then. As she aged, her movement became terrible.

justineheninfan
May 6th, 2011, 05:28 PM
Maria's time waa always gonna be after after WS/Belgians were gone. That was a given. Serena at majors is too much for ANYBODY to handle, Juju vs Masha on clay is a mismatch, Maria ain't beating Venus on grass..soo there you've it. Not much room for her to really rack up the majors, no?

A shame that her shoulder got injured..because with the tour now, she really would've been the clear alpha-female.

Yeah I agree. Probably starting around now is when she might have been her most dominant IF she had stayed healthy these past years. As it is now it will probably never happen though.

doomsday
May 6th, 2011, 05:42 PM
If, if, if :rolleyes:

Please get your facts right. Henin won 3 of their last 4 meetings, or 3 of their last 5, or 7 of their last 9.

Henin owns Pova. Period.

Like I said a thousand times, we do NOT have the same definition of ownage. Sharapova beat Henin twice at majors and in straights, Henin clearly had the edge on clay but on HC Sharapova was always gonna be tricky for her.
She lost very badly in US final and OZ QF.

Matt01
May 6th, 2011, 05:52 PM
Like I said a thousand times, we do NOT have the same definition of ownage. Sharapova beat Henin twice at majors and in straights, Henin clearly had the edge on clay but on HC Sharapova was always gonna be tricky for her.
She lost very badly in US final and OZ QF.


Henin leads Pova in Slams, on HC, on clay (yes that counts, too).
It doesn't matter how you look at it...7:3 is ownage. :wavey:

doomsday
May 6th, 2011, 06:08 PM
Henin leads Pova in Slams, on HC, on clay (yes that counts, too).
It doesn't matter how you look at it...7:3 is ownage. :wavey:

Ownage is on clay, on HC Sharapova leads 2/1 at majors with 2 wins in straights. But like you said, you look the way you want.

Matt01
May 6th, 2011, 06:13 PM
You're funny.

edificio
May 6th, 2011, 06:19 PM
Was there a declaration I missed?

doomsday
May 6th, 2011, 06:22 PM
You're funny.

Can I have your opinion about Henin's H2H vs Venus?? Is that ownage to you??

Craig.
May 6th, 2011, 06:26 PM
Henin leads Pova in Slams, on HC, on clay (yes that counts, too).
It doesn't matter how you look at it...7:3 is ownage. :wavey:

Matthew, we get it. Masha sucks and was never that good, she's nothing but a washed up has been!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111

Matt01
May 6th, 2011, 06:44 PM
Matthew, we get it. Masha sucks and was never that good, she's nothing but a washed up has been!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111


Actually, Pova is very good player. :)

doomsday
May 6th, 2011, 06:45 PM
Actually, Pova is very good player. :)

And last time I checked my posts weren't invisible :lol: not a big deal I know your answer.

Matt01
May 6th, 2011, 06:52 PM
And last time I checked my posts weren't invisible :lol: not a big deal I know your answer.

http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost.php?p=16049247&postcount=167

The H2H between Pova and Justine is a totally different case.

doomsday
May 6th, 2011, 07:03 PM
http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost.php?p=16049247&postcount=167

The H2H between Pova and Justine is a totally different case.

Yeah sure, suddenly there is no more it doesn't matter how you look at it 7:3 is ownage .... you see you're also funny.;)

Matt01
May 6th, 2011, 07:11 PM
Yeah sure, suddenly there is no more it doesn't matter how you look at it 7:3 is ownage .... you see you're also funny.;)


You do not understand what I mean.

doomsday
May 6th, 2011, 07:28 PM
You do not understand what I mean.

:lol: I perfectly got your point. Henin and Maria played each other at their peak so H2H is more relevant while Henin post 2003 never faced Venus post 2003(who was quite shit compared to Henin) and no doubt H2H wouldn't have been the same if there were more meetings between them in that time.
But at the end you look the way you want cause H2H is still 7:2 so you confirmed me that when your fave is "owned" you're looking for loopholes that's just what I did earlier.:lol:

Matt01
May 6th, 2011, 07:37 PM
:lol: I perfectly got your point. Henin and Maria played each other at their peak so H2H is more relevant while Henin post 2003 never faced Venus post 2003(who was quite shit compared to Henin) and no doubt H2H wouldn't have been the same if there were more meetings between them in that time.


Yeah, apparently you got it. :confused:



But at the end you look the way you want cause H2H is still 7:2 so you confirmed me that when your fave is "owned" you're looking for loopholes that's just what I did earlier.:lol:


So where is the loophole in the Pova-Henin H2H? :confused:

doomsday
May 6th, 2011, 07:44 PM
So where is the loophole in the Pova-Henin H2H? :confused:

I know I said Maria was at her peak and it's true but she wasn't lucky to play Henin on clay 3 times for 0 meetings on grass and yeah the most important meeting is in Maria's hands:lol:

Matt01
May 6th, 2011, 07:49 PM
I know I said Maria was at her peak and it's true but she wasn't lucky to play Henin on clay 3 times for 0 meetings on grass and yeah the most important meeting is in Maria's hands:lol:


You cannot take just one "most important" meeting, especialy when Justine leads in the Slams overalll. And clay is a much more relevant and important surface than grass so it's only logical that they played more often on clay. In 10 meetings, they only played 3 times on clay and the H2H is still 7:3? Hmmm :wavey:

Break My Rapture
May 6th, 2011, 08:02 PM
Or Henin.
She did. Just look at the YEC '07 final. Maria took aim at Justine's BH with kick second serves because she knew it would cause her trouble, that's the one that's most obvious but there are probably a lot more.
They have played enough times for Pova to figure Henin out, surely.

Matt01
May 6th, 2011, 08:09 PM
She did. Just look at the YEC '07 final. Maria took aim at Justine's BH with kick second serves because she knew it would cause her trouble, that's the one that's most obvious but there are probably a lot more.
They have played enough times for Pova to figure Henin out, surely.


I guess Pova would be the first player then to figure her opponent out and still lose the match :rolleyes:

doomsday
May 6th, 2011, 08:09 PM
You cannot take just one "most important" meeting, especialy when Justine leads in the Slams overalll. And clay is a much more relevant and important surface than grass so it's only logical that they played more often on clay. In 10 meetings, they only played 3 times on clay and the H2H is still 7:3? Hmmm :wavey:

HC is the most important surface on the Tour and there is nothing more important than a GS final. Sorry but it's the way it is.:)

Break My Rapture
May 6th, 2011, 08:13 PM
I guess Pova would be the first player then to figure her opponent out and still lose the match :rolleyes:
Talk about superficial. :lol:

Matt01
May 6th, 2011, 08:20 PM
HC is the most important surface on the Tour and there is nothing more important than a GS final. Sorry but it's the way it is.:)


So I guess that 1 match out of 10 is the deciding one because it was a Slam final. Right.

And Justine leads Pova on HC so that only proves my point.

doomsday
May 6th, 2011, 08:28 PM
So I guess that 1 match out of 10 is the deciding one because it was a Slam final. Right.

And Justine leads Pova on HC so that only proves my point.

Not what I said, just looking for some loopholes and again 2:1 for Sharapova on HC in majors.

MakarovaFan
May 6th, 2011, 08:41 PM
If, if, if :rolleyes:

Please get your facts right. Henin won 3 of their last 4 meetings, or 3 of their last 5, or 7 of their last 9.

Henin owns Pova. Period.
Please learn how to read I CLEARLY stated that upon the end of Justine first career(which ended May of 08) they split there last 4 meetings...."How so.... going into the end of Justine's first career(which is the era upon which this thread is based"
Geez i love it when people try to shut me down and end up making a fool of themselves....
QF Australian O. (http://www.tennisforum.com/ltourn.php?nr=3283) 2008 M Sharapova(5) - J Henin(1) 6-4 6-0F Champions. (http://www.tennisforum.com/ltourn.php?nr=3230) 2007 J Henin - M Sharapova 5-7 7-5 6-3SF Champions. (http://www.tennisforum.com/ltourn.php?nr=2735) 2006 J Henin(3) - M Sharapova(2) 6-2 7-65F US Open (http://www.tennisforum.com/ltourn.php?nr=2619) 2006 M Sharapova(3) - J Henin

atominside
May 6th, 2011, 08:44 PM
Sharapova at her best is better than peak justine on HC. Period.

Matt01
May 6th, 2011, 08:46 PM
Please learn how to read I CLEARLY stated that upon the end of Justine first career(which ended May of 08) they split there last 4 meetings


Yeah, mentioning their last 4 meetings before Henin' first retirement makes sense (i.e. to make Pova look good) when Henin won all the 4 matches before that. :rolleyes:

MakarovaFan
May 6th, 2011, 08:53 PM
Justine is 7-3 overall against Sharapova. She even leads Sharapova 4-3 on Maria's best surface of hard courts, while on clay it is a 3-0, 6-1 in sets blowout. When both were in their primes hard courts were a toss up with Justine winning more often than Maria in fact (4-2 to Justine if we consider 05-07 their mutual prime), and clay was Justine predictably schooling Maria the couple times they met. In most significantly in Maria's best year ever- 2006, Justine still led the head to head 3-1 without a single clay matchup. Maria won the biggest match in the U.S Open final, but Justine still won almost as big of matches with the 2006 Australian Open semis and the 2006 WTA Championships semis which decided the year end #1 between the two. Justine also beat Maria in the 2007 WTA Championships final before Maria's final win at the 2008 Australian Open in the quarters. Maria never had back to back wins over Henin, in fact between each of the 3 wins is multiple losses in a row. There is no doubt Justine always had the edge in the overall matchup.
People really dont seem to comprend BASIC stuff it seems :rolleyes:....let me give you an example: I am trying to jump over a hurdle but the first 10 times a fail, then i come back and make he next 3/6 tries. NOW though the hurdle still owned me 13-3, the final 6 were split therefore by basic comprehension and logics it shows that i have indeed made progress in figuring out how to get over this hurdle.
Sooo again though Justine owns Maria overall 7-3,that is COMPLETELY irrelevant to made post....as i clearly said the last 4 times the two played up until Justine's retirement(2008) they split the matches down the middle and if we want to get technical Maria 2 wins were very convincing(64 64.64 60) whereas Justine's 2 wins were very tight( 5 points away from losing one of them infact).....they indicates that Maria definetly as able to adust to Henin's game.

MakarovaFan
May 6th, 2011, 08:56 PM
Yeah, mentioning their last 4 meetings before Henin' first retirement makes sense (i.e. to make Pova look good) when Henin won all the 4 matches before that. :rolleyes:
No buddy because that was the freaking whole point of this thread :rolleyes:. We were talking about Maria then so OFCOURSE i would count those. Going into 2008 Maria had won 2/4 prior meetings and seemed to have the edge over her and my post was given that,do people think she would have risen and begun domination(as her "big 3" had been solved-Kim she began owning/Kim retiring,Justine retiring and Amelie a shell of her former self.). Justine retired and Maria had surgery so both players were taken off course and anything after has now been skewed. The whole illusion was had Maria kept up her form of 2008(ie not having surgery). the surgery like any other has changed the course of her career(as did it with Venus,Serena,Seles though not an injury persay)...nice try to cover your back though

swim4life227
May 6th, 2011, 09:10 PM
After her 2008 start I figured Maria would win 2 or 3 majors that year and take over #1. It's gonna take her a while longer to get back to best, but she's only 24, and who knows, the age of Maria may still be in the cards. I think if she can regain consistency on her serve and the pop on her groundstrokes these disappointments will all be worth it, because I feel they've made Maria a better competitor.

Love or hate Maria, she's a firecracker to watch when she's on her game. However, it's been over THREE years since she delivered her peak performance at the AO and she has been a shadow of her former self. I really have come to the conclusion that her form will never return and it's going to come down to how well she can mask her liabilities.

She really just hasn't been good except for the USO series last summer but then it all came crashing down as the USO. I know her fans are happy about her IW/Miami results and think it means shes back, but she's not. I got to see her first hand so much those weeks and it really showed that her game was LIMITED. That all was a testament to her MENTAL strength and ability to wipe the slate clean after each error and start anew.

MakarovaFan
May 6th, 2011, 09:14 PM
Love or hate Maria, she's a firecracker to watch when she's on her game. However, it's been over THREE years since she delivered her peak performance at the AO and she has been a shadow of her former self. I really have come to the conclusion that her form will never return and it's going to come down to how well she can mask her liabilities.

She really just hasn't been good except for the USO series last summer but then it all came crashing down as the USO. I know her fans are happy about her IW/Miami results and think it means shes back, but she's not. I got to see her first hand so much those weeks and it really showed that her game was LIMITED. That all was a testament to her MENTAL strength and ability to wipe the slate clean after each error and start anew.
But in today's game isn't that REALLY all that matters...i mean i can name a few players who play like crap but still win(majors) due to their fight and mentality. Not implying that Maria will follow,but just saying....

swim4life227
May 6th, 2011, 09:22 PM
Well those people you speak of (like Kim recently) are at least have well enough rounded games so if something goes wrong they have other aspects to rely on. Maria has obvious holes in her game, like her inability to use to net. She can't hit an overhead and then she waits to hit a swinging volley and then hits it right back to the opponent and she gets burned. Her volleys have been crap and there is a lot of times shes in mid-court and has the chance to move up to the net but then she retreats back. Half the time she could just come into the net behind her near-winners and finish the point off to the open court easy. All of these things Maria was able to manage when she was in form. As long as Maria keeps her mental strength she will be able to beat off most of the mugs on a regular bases even if it means ugly wins. However, I don't think she's really capable of winning a big match anymore against a top player in top form at the right moment. Her loss to Caroline at IW really showed just how far behind she is from the top. She probably didn't even belong in that match based on form but like I said, it speaks to how well her ability is to compete. It's too bad her game will never come back up to that level.

Craig.
May 6th, 2011, 09:31 PM
Well those people you speak of (like Kim recently) are at least have well enough rounded games so if something goes wrong they have other aspects to rely on. Maria has obvious holes in her game, like her inability to use to net. She can't hit an overhead and then she waits to hit a swinging volley and then hits it right back to the opponent and she gets burned. Her volleys have been crap and there is a lot of times shes in mid-court and has the chance to move up to the net but then she retreats back. Half the time she could just come into the net behind her near-winners and finish the point off to the open court easy. All of these things Maria was able to manage when she was in form. As long as Maria keeps her mental strength she will be able to beat off most of the mugs on a regular bases even if it means ugly wins. However, I don't think she's really capable of winning a big match anymore against a top player in top form at the right moment. Her loss to Caroline at IW really showed just how far behind she is from the top. She probably didn't even belong in that match based on form but like I said, it speaks to how well her ability is to compete. It's too bad her game will never come back up to that level.

I totally agree. That's why all her losses this year have been in straight sets and she's yet to lose a 3-setter. Fights like a dog against lower-ranked/decent players and beats them, but her game just isn't there against a top player on a good day.

Matt01
May 6th, 2011, 09:36 PM
No buddy because that was the freaking whole point of this thread :rolleyes:. We were talking about Maria then so OFCOURSE i would count those. Going into 2008 Maria had won 2/4 prior meetings and seemed to have the edge over her and my post was given that,do people think she would have risen and begun domination(as her "big 3" had been solved-Kim she began owning/Kim retiring,Justine retiring and Amelie a shell of her former self.).


Yeah, that's great logic. You won 2 of 4 matches against an opponent and means that you figured that opponent out and got the edge over that oppponent. That makes totally sense :rolleyes:

You said that Pova figured Henin out, you were wrong.

And the same goes for Mauresmo. Just because Pova won their last match (the first out of 4 :rolleyes:), that doesn't mean that Pova "figured Mauresmo out". That's just delusional...

Oh, and as for the actual topic...Pova won her first Slam 7(!) years ago. Some players rise earlier than others and some go down earlier than others. :wavey:

MakarovaFan
May 6th, 2011, 09:59 PM
Yeah, that's great logic. You won 2 of 4 matches against an opponent and means that you figured that opponent out and got the edge over that oppponent. That makes totally sense :rolleyes:

You said that Pova figured Henin out, you were wrong.

And the same goes for Mauresmo. Just because Pova won their last match (the first out of 4 :rolleyes:), that doesn't mean that Pova "figured Mauresmo out". That's just delusional...

Oh, and as for the actual topic...Pova won her first Slam 7(!) years ago. Some players rise earlier than others and some go down earlier than others. :wavey:
Right nice way to try and change the topic. She also had major surgery 3(!) years ago, the that 7 really is 4 and doesn't seem so bad in comparison.

And yes winning 2 of your last 4(and nearly 3/4) meetings against an opponent who you had previously only beaten 1 out of 6 times does show the signs,seems VERY logical to me:confused: As i said to an earlier poster,to make this "easier" for you.....if i try to jump a hurdle and can't get over it the first 10 times i try then come back and clear it 3 of the next 6 times ,clearly that shows that i have figured out a way to beat it...i mean i am having a hard time seeing how you don't get it! Maybe you are getting stuck because you think "figuring out" means that Maria should never have lost to Henin again if she indeed had "figured her out"(that's the only angle i can see for reasons as to why you don't get it)

As for Mauresmo umm sorry but after 2006/7 Mauresom was frankly a joke and shell of her former self and again keepinng in mind my OP, the Sharapova of 2007/2008 wouldn't have even had to think twice about her being a threat to Maria's rise. Maybe "figured" wasn't the best word,rather Mauresmo was "solved"

MakarovaFan
May 6th, 2011, 10:09 PM
Well those people you speak of (like Kim recently) are at least have well enough rounded games so if something goes wrong they have other aspects to rely on. Maria has obvious holes in her game, like her inability to use to net. She can't hit an overhead and then she waits to hit a swinging volley and then hits it right back to the opponent and she gets burned. Her volleys have been crap and there is a lot of times shes in mid-court and has the chance to move up to the net but then she retreats back. Half the time she could just come into the net behind her near-winners and finish the point off to the open court easy. All of these things Maria was able to manage when she was in form. As long as Maria keeps her mental strength she will be able to beat off most of the mugs on a regular bases even if it means ugly wins. However, I don't think she's really capable of winning a big match anymore against a top player in top form at the right moment. Her loss to Caroline at IW really showed just how far behind she is from the top. She probably didn't even belong in that match based on form but like I said, it speaks to how well her ability is to compete. It's too bad her game will never come back up to that level.
Her form in IW was actually quite well until a questionable 2nd set in the Qtrs against Peng,otherwise her form in IW + Miami was OVERALL pretty good..she just didn't show up against Woz and had no fight left and was flat against Azarenka.

And who exactly is considered a top player atm, again due to the poor state of womens tennis i don't think that is a factor. Before Miami her last "big match against a top player" was the Cincy Final against US Hardcourt "GOAT" Kim- and Maria was killing her 62 53 40-15 before the rain came, that delay literally gave Kim a second chance and she came back a new player. So other than Wozniacki and Azarenka,i don't think there are any "top" players that Maria wouldn't be able to deal with...but the magic word with them is "Slams" neither has proved themselves in the biggest moment of all so you would have to favor even a bad Maria in those cases.........anyways this is all off topic

JCTennisFan
May 6th, 2011, 11:51 PM
Does anyone believe that if Serena had gotten a career-threatening shoulder injury in 2003 instead of a knee injury, that she would of tried to come back? And if she did do you think she would of accepted roughly 2! years of losing to subpar players while attempting to actually regain her previous form? Dont forget people! The Injury that Sharapova sustained was the EXACT same injury that did Jennifer Capriati in for good! Thankfully Sharapova is a little younger than Jennifer was when she got her Shoulder injury, but the point is that most times..... Pro players DONT come back from Labrum Shoulder injury. It is an incredibly difficult injury to get over.

I honestly like Maria MORE now after her shoulder problems, versus earlier in her career. Why? Because it proves to me just how much natural will and dertermination this girl has in her. She is the best payed female athlete EVER, including endorsements, and has absolutely NO incentive to continue to want to play tennis.Sharapova proved that she was not just a pretty girl, she could absolutely crush the ball.

So at the end of the day what is he reason for trying to continue on, when she could quit now (or could of quit when she actually had the injury) and been richer than any other woman tennis player, have grand slams to her name, and potentially save her body from additional injuries/surgeries? The only logical conclusion I can make is because she actually still WANTS to win big tournies/GS. Quite amazing to me to think she still has that much desire to play the game, when she has had every opportunity to outright retire.

This gut and grit that she has shown while coming back proves to me that as long as her body is willing, she will have atleast one more GS in her future. She is just too dammed determined and stubborn not to! When everyone else would of stopped believing in themselves, Sharapova appears to not mentally allow that to be an option.

Regardless what anyone else thinks, Sharapova has consistently blown away my expectations of her. She really is one of the best of her generation, and id even venture to say she will go down as an all time great. Put any other player in Sharapova's shoes and see how they would of handled it.

The truely great players prove their greatness by how they deal with serious situations. Sharapova has proven how much of a natural champion she is by dealing with her deck with true class. She continues on when 99% of others would of given up. I dont see how anyone CANT respect that.

KBdoubleu
May 7th, 2011, 12:07 AM
Yes, "now" was supposed to be Maria's time. However, no one could have foreseen that she would have had a serious shoulder injury. Many people also wouldn't have believed around the time Maria was first winning slams (2004-2006) that Serena, Clijsters, Venus would still be contending for slams (each of them has won a slam more recently than Sharapova). Combine the two and it is easy to see why Maria hasn't dominated this era. However, given the current status of the game and the way Sharapova played from 2004-2006 - it would be stupid to think that she wouldn't be winning slams in this period of women's tennis.

JCTennisFan
May 7th, 2011, 12:08 AM
And the whole "figuring players out" nonsense is cracking me up. Theoretically, if you have two players who are exactly evenly matched (which is honestly about impossible) then each should win half the meetings between them. So if you played someone 6 times and you won 3, you would technically be completely even with them skill wise. You took half, they took half. But then you throw different surfaces into the equation, rampant injuries, and it really becomes incredibly difficult to say.

If you are beating players at GS, then I honestly dont think you have "never" figured them out. Sharapova has beaten Serena at W in the Final, quite convincingly actually, beat Henin in similar fashion in 2006 at the US open, so I dont see how she is completely "owned" by these players.

And people are talking about Mauresmo like she was a consistent force. She has to be the biggest headcase that has won a slam ever (except maybe novotna....)so I cant really see her as something standing in Sharapova's way. Mauresmo had a beautiful game, but no "balls" to back it up. I could even venture to say that without Mauresmo's 06 Aussie win (which had not 1, but TWO retirements in route to that title... in other words one of the weakest performances to win a GS in recent history) she would have not had the self-belief to go on and win at W that year (which is her only credible slam, imo. She truely DID play the best at that tournament, but who is to say her confidence in herself would of been anywhere near that level had she not already won her first GS ealier in the year?) Its a HUGE mental hurdle to win your first GS, and she didnt really have to do much but just show up. The confidence boost it gave her had to be enormous.

JCTennisFan
May 7th, 2011, 12:15 AM
There is one thing I can defintely say with full confidence..... and that is that we will never see a player quite like Maria ever again. The general public, all over the world, has fallen in love with her in a way ive never seen for a tennis player before. She is one heck of a unique girl, no doubt. Its nice to see someone NOT get jaded by constantly being told how beautiful and wonderful they are. Amazingly enough, when people tell you that you are perfect all the time, you typically begin to believe it after a while(kournikova). Maria seems to, regardless of the fame she has, manage to keep an incredibly level head through it all, and has the ability to keep things in perspective.

justineheninfan
May 7th, 2011, 12:33 AM
People really dont seem to comprend BASIC stuff it seems :rolleyes:....let me give you an example: I am trying to jump over a hurdle but the first 10 times a fail, then i come back and make he next 3/6 tries. NOW though the hurdle still owned me 13-3, the final 6 were split therefore by basic comprehension and logics it shows that i have indeed made progress in figuring out how to get over this hurdle.
Sooo again though Justine owns Maria overall 7-3,that is COMPLETELY irrelevant to made post....as i clearly said the last 4 times the two played up until Justine's retirement(2008) they split the matches down the middle and if we want to get technical Maria 2 wins were very convincing(64 64.64 60) whereas Justine's 2 wins were very tight( 5 points away from losing one of them infact).....they indicates that Maria definetly as able to adust to Henin's game.

Matt said it all in this case. Justine won 3 of their last 5 matches. She won 2 of their last 3 matches, 3 of their last 4, and that with all their meetings on hard courts which is Maria's best surface she still couldnt get any streak of wins going at any point. No matter how you spin it Maria never had any period of substained success against Justine. Heck as I mentioned Maria never had back to back wins over Justine. You need to beat someone atleast 2 times in a row at some point before you can claim you "figured them out".

And if you want to read between the lines and excuse make as you are doing then I dont mind saying in return good thing for Maria she only got far enough to even play Justine those times she was playing incredible and really at her best, unlike Justine who in her prime years was virtually always there in the finals or semis on hard courts and even grass even when not at her best (in addition to winning everything on clay where lo and behold Maria is almost never to be found to be surely spanked each time by prime Justine, whereas Justine is always there to face Maria on hard courts). After all Justine would have easily beaten Maria had they played at the 2007 U.S Open, 2007 Australian Open, 2007 Miami, but of course Maria isnt going to be around at the end unless she is playing at her 100% level.

And your Mauresmo claim is even more laughable. Atleast Justine you can point out a couple good beatings from Maria on hard courts in big matches. Against Mauresmo though Sharapova only managed one win ever and it was a 3 setter on Mauresmo's worst surface by far (fast hard courts) in a tournament that if you actually followed Mauresmo was playing quite awful at despite making the semis. And you conclude from that she had figured Mauresmo out, and was no longer a problem, LOL!

JCTennisFan
May 7th, 2011, 12:39 AM
In Maria's defense... she plays, and has always played, a much LOWER percentage game than Henin ever did. Henin had more variety and more margin(ie spin)on her shots. Maria went for winners even when there really wasnt an opening to do so, Henin typically did not.

Maria's game is more suseptible to consistency than Henin. Of course henin was getting to alot of semi's and finals... she really didnt do anything overly bad that you could easily exploit. Where as Maria has always had weak movement, and one could technically beat her by just keeping the ball in play (Woz against Sharapova recently anyone?). Henin could almost NEVER be beaten by just getting the ball back in play. So Henin naturally has a game more condusive to winning against a variety of different styles. Sharapova has only really one option, to overpower her opponents. So she really has less options than Henin did, which probably explains her weaker consistency.

Matt01
May 7th, 2011, 12:53 AM
And yes winning 2 of your last 4(and nearly 3/4) meetings against an opponent who you had previously only beaten 1 out of 6 times does show the signs,seems VERY logical to me:confused: As i said to an earlier poster,to make this "easier" for you.....if i try to jump a hurdle and can't get over it the first 10 times i try then come back and clear it 3 of the next 6 times ,clearly that shows that i have figured out a way to beat it...i mean i am having a hard time seeing how you don't get it! Maybe you are getting stuck because you think "figuring out" means that Maria should never have lost to Henin again if she indeed had "figured her out"(that's the only angle i can see for reasons as to why you don't get it)


For me, "figuring out" doesn't mean that you have to win every time, but it means at least that you get the upperhand in a rivalry...but Poova never got this over Justine. She never beat her twice in a row. She beat her in some important matches (so did Justine), but winning the first match against her and then 2 of the remaining nine..come on, that has nothing to do with "figuring out".

Matt01
May 7th, 2011, 12:59 AM
Maria's game is more suseptible to consistency than Henin. Of course henin was getting to alot of semi's and finals... she really didnt do anything overly bad that you could easily exploit. Where as Maria has always had weak movement, and one could technically beat her by just keeping the ball in play (Woz against Sharapova recently anyone?). Henin could almost NEVER be beaten by just getting the ball back in play. So Henin naturally has a game more condusive to winning against a variety of different styles. Sharapova has only really one option, to overpower her opponents. So she really has less options than Henin did, which probably explains her weaker consistency.


And I did not say the above to bash Maria or something...in fact I think that Pova's game just matches up badly with Justine...Justine has enough variety to trouble Maria and make her uncomfortable, but she also has enough firepower to make her run and make her uncomfortable(again), so Pova has to be at her best, serve well and try to blow Henin off the court. And in 10 matches, Pova was at her best 3 times, that's not THAT bad.

JCTennisFan
May 7th, 2011, 01:02 AM
I really dont think the "top GS contendors" will typically ever own one another
. If your winning more than one GS (key words being "more than one"), you have an imposing enough game to where you should be able to stand up to the Best players consistently. Sharapova did do that, and she won IMPORTANT matchups against top players.

Does it matter if your head to head is 8/2 against someone, but the 2 losses were in GS and the 8 wins were in MM tournies? Its about winning the BIG matchups, and Sharapova did a good job of that. What was Sharapova's H2H against Henin, 7/3? But 2 of those 3 wins were in GS matches..... both of which Sharapova went on to win.

Its alot more complicated than everyone is trying to make it out to be.

Matt01
May 7th, 2011, 01:05 AM
Does it matter if your head to head is 8/2 against someone, but the 2 losses were in GS and the 8 wins were in MM tournies? Its about winning the BIG matchups, and Sharapova did a good job of that. What was Sharapova's H2H against Henin, 7/3? But 2 of those 3 wins were in GS matches..... both of which Sharapova went on to win.

Its alot more complicated than everyone is trying to make it out to be.


They also had 2 matches at the YEC, both of which Henin won. You see, it's even more complicated. ;)

justineheninfan
May 7th, 2011, 01:12 AM
I would say their "big match" head to head is 4-2 Henin. 2006 French quarters, 2006 WTA Championships final, 2007 Australian Open semis, 2006 U.S Open final, 2008 Australian Open quarters, 2006 Australian Open semis. The winner of each ended up winning the title except for the 2006 Australian Open, but of course Maria was certain to win that since she apparently had her pigeon Mauresmo (LOL) waiting in the final.

JCTennisFan
May 7th, 2011, 01:38 AM
Considering Henin was aruably the most "complete" player during most of their matchups, I find it pretty impressive Sharapova won 2 of those meetings, on the big occasions. She doesnt have the movement of a williams or cljisters, so that means she has to hit even HARDER than those players to stay competitive. Henin would find herself being able to hit to the open court to finish points off easier against Sharapova than against Serena or Kim. So considering what type of game Sharapova had to bring to defeat an inform Henin, which was basically hit her off the court, I think she did well. Sharapova is the only one I can think of who has just hit her off the court in the past (iirc Davenport had an even harder time with Henin, which would point to the movement between these players being the problem in this matchup). Serena and Kim didnt so much have to (and honestly, had a hard time) blow Henin off the court because of their sizable movement bonus over Sharapova.

delicatecutter
May 7th, 2011, 02:04 AM
Why do people have to keep bringing this up. Yes this could have been Masha's time but we all know what happened with her shoulder. Its a mirracle she is even out there playing. No player has ever come back after suffering from this injury. Masha may never win a slam again but her fans are just happy she is out there fighting and giving it her all unlike others who have given up after hitting a few speed humps.

Is this even true? So now Maria is a sports medicine miracle? No wonder her fans treat her as the messiah. And she is clearly healthy now so her past injuries really don't explain why she didn't have a top 40 win until July last year or is expected to lose to Cibulkova this week. Like, there are other things going on besides that stupid shoulder injury.

JCTennisFan
May 7th, 2011, 02:07 AM
He isnt joking, I really dont know of a Tennis player who came back after a Labrum Tear. Jennifer Capriati is the most notable Female who had that problem, and she had 2 surgeries to fix it..... no dice. Not sure the reason, but my guess would be because of all the different muscles which come together at the shoulder? When you think about it, the shoulder is the joint with the largest range of motion.

Craig.
May 7th, 2011, 02:49 AM
Is this even true? So now Maria is a sports medicine miracle? No wonder her fans treat her as the messiah. And she is clearly healthy now so her past injuries really don't explain why she didn't have a top 40 win until July last year or is expected to lose to Cibulkova this week. Like, there are other things going on besides that stupid shoulder injury.

Then what else, do tell, could explain that she hasn't been able to get back to championship winning form? You don't go from being one of the greatest players of your generation to a mediocre top 20 player JUST LIKE THAT. I'm not saying she's still injured, far from it, but the lingering effects of it (especially mentally) are probably more serious than some people might think.

delicatecutter
May 7th, 2011, 02:59 AM
Well she doesn't move as well as she used to. Her serve can still be a weapon and she still loses even when she doesn't hit loads of double faults. I think that 08 Aussie Open might have been a bit of an anomaly. And yes, it's all mental. She's just not what she used to be in that department. I'm just not sure how much of that is due to her injury. I don't think her heart is in it as much anymore. She's engaged to get married, etc.

Sp!ffy
May 7th, 2011, 03:04 AM
Is this even true? So now Maria is a sports medicine miracle? No wonder her fans treat her as the messiah. And she is clearly healthy now so her past injuries really don't explain why she didn't have a top 40 win until July last year or is expected to lose to Cibulkova this week. Like, there are other things going on besides that stupid shoulder injury.

You're so annoying and stupid. Your one dimensional thinking clearly inhibits you from getting the big picture out of all of this. Going from the top player in the sport to a 9 month break where you weren't even sure that you would be back coupled with painful losses and frustrating seasons is obviously going to affect her form. Are you implying that Maria no longer plays like she once did due to personal preference?

And also, you should not be talking about things you do not know anything about. Maria has said many times that she doesn't feel the spin on the ball anymore, something that has affected her serve and will do so for the remainder of her career. But what do I know? I mean I'm sure you must know a lot more about her than we all do.

delicatecutter
May 7th, 2011, 03:27 AM
You're so annoying and stupid. Your one dimensional thinking clearly inhibits you from getting the big picture out of all of this. Going from the top player in the sport to a 9 month break where you weren't even sure that you would be back coupled with painful losses and frustrating seasons is obviously going to affect her form. Are you implying that Maria no longer plays like she once did due to personal preference?

And also, you should not be talking about things you do not know anything about. Maria has said many times that she doesn't feel the spin on the ball anymore, something that has affected her serve and will do so for the remainder of her career. But what do I know? I mean I'm sure you must know a lot more about her than we all do.

I never said I do. But I don't care. At least I'm not a blind zombie who says she's the best ever when she hasn't played that well in years. I am not a Maria fan, far from it, but I can see she has the capacity to play well. Well enough to win big titles even. I know many of her fans were on Suicide Wach when she had Clijsters on the ropes and could have won Cincy. Please do not insult my intelligence. Her mental game is way more a liability these days than her physical one.

Craig.
May 7th, 2011, 03:41 AM
I never said I do. But I don't care. At least I'm not a blind zombie who says she's the best ever when she hasn't played that well in years. I am not a Maria fan, far from it, but I can see she has the capacity to play well. Well enough to win big titles even. I know many of her fans were on Suicide Wach when she had Clijsters on the ropes and could have won Cincy. Please do not insult my intelligence. Her mental game is way more a liability these days than her physical one.

What fan wouldn't be? :lol: She had 3 match points in a big final against one of her biggest rivals/a great player.

delicatecutter
May 7th, 2011, 03:44 AM
My point was that I think she has the capacity to be as good now as she ever was before. Some apologists don't think so given her injury or whatever.

Sp!ffy
May 7th, 2011, 03:56 AM
I never said I do. But I don't care. At least I'm not a blind zombie who says she's the best ever when she hasn't played that well in years. I am not a Maria fan, far from it, but I can see she has the capacity to play well. Well enough to win big titles even. I know many of her fans were on Suicide Wach when she had Clijsters on the ropes and could have won Cincy. Please do not insult my intelligence. Her mental game is way more a liability these days than her physical one.

Who the hell does that? You people are always making up shit.

doomsday
May 7th, 2011, 07:47 AM
Matt said it all in this case. Justine won 3 of their last 5 matches. She won 2 of their last 3 matches, 3 of their last 4, and that with all their meetings on hard courts which is Maria's best surface she still couldnt get any streak of wins going at any point. No matter how you spin it Maria never had any period of substained success against Justine. Heck as I mentioned Maria never had back to back wins over Justine. You need to beat someone atleast 2 times in a row at some point before you can claim you "figured them out".

And if you want to read between the lines and excuse make as you are doing then I dont mind saying in return good thing for Maria she only got far enough to even play Justine those times she was playing incredible and really at her best, unlike Justine who in her prime years was virtually always there in the finals or semis on hard courts and even grass even when not at her best (in addition to winning everything on clay where lo and behold Maria is almost never to be found to be surely spanked each time by prime Justine, whereas Justine is always there to face Maria on hard courts). After all Justine would have easily beaten Maria had they played at the 2007 U.S Open, 2007 Australian Open, 2007 Miami, but of course Maria isnt going to be around at the end unless she is playing at her 100% level.

And Maria would have easily beaten Justine in Wimbledon 2004, YEC 2004, AO 2005, Wimbledon 2005 and US 2005 but who was not good enough to go deep or even participate in those events? Justine.
Anyway I don't agree with the owning thing, Maria never beat twice in a row it's true but when she was at her best(during Justine's peak years) she killed her pretty badly and the loss at YEC 2007 was very tight Maria had more chances to win in 2 in that match then we all know what happened Justine running away because mentally burnt or whatever, couldn't compete anymore. She didn't let her rivals take over her and decided to leave the Tour, easy way out.
Serena, Venus and Maria never did that and fought those years where they were also tired, injured etc..... but karma is a bitch and we know what happened in her second career.

Monzanator
May 7th, 2011, 07:49 AM
Let the haters choke on their joy from Maria's poor results in the recent years. They're all jealous IMO :spit:

Matt01
May 7th, 2011, 12:20 PM
And Maria would have easily beaten Justine in Wimbledon 2004, YEC 2004, AO 2005, Wimbledon 2005 and US 2005 but who was not good enough to go deep or even participate in those events? Justine.
Anyway I don't agree with the owning thing, Maria never beat twice in a row it's true but when she was at her best(during Justine's peak years) she killed her pretty badly and the loss at YEC 2007 was very tight Maria had more chances to win in 2 in that match then we all know what happened Justine running away because mentally burnt or whatever, couldn't compete anymore. She didn't let her rivals take over her and decided to leave the Tour, easy way out.
Serena, Venus and Maria never did that and fought those years where they were also tired, injured etc..... but karma is a bitch and we know what happened in her second career.


You're such a troll :weirdo:

Craig.
May 7th, 2011, 01:41 PM
Who the hell does that? You people are always making up shit.

This.

thrust
May 7th, 2011, 01:50 PM
In Maria's defense... she plays, and has always played, a much LOWER percentage game than Henin ever did. Henin had more variety and more margin(ie spin)on her shots. Maria went for winners even when there really wasnt an opening to do so, Henin typically did not.

Maria's game is more suseptible to consistency than Henin. Of course henin was getting to alot of semi's and finals... she really didnt do anything overly bad that you could easily exploit. Where as Maria has always had weak movement, and one could technically beat her by just keeping the ball in play (Woz against Sharapova recently anyone?). Henin could almost NEVER be beaten by just getting the ball back in play. So Henin naturally has a game more condusive to winning against a variety of different styles. Sharapova has only really one option, to overpower her opponents. So she really has less options than Henin did, which probably explains her weaker consistency.

Maria's style of play also explains her physical injures and decline the pas few years. Justine, being much smaller, had to overextend her physical abilities too which took it's toll on her body. Still, the fact is, Justine has had a much more successful career than Maria.

justineheninfan
May 7th, 2011, 06:37 PM
And Maria would have easily beaten Justine in Wimbledon 2004, YEC 2004, AO 2005, Wimbledon 2005 and US 2005 but who was not good enough to go deep or even participate in those events?

LOL Justine didnt even play the 2005 Ausralian and 2004 YEC so how the hell can you say those events. And since Maria couldnt even close out a grossly overweight and badly off form Serena in her worst slump ever at the 2005 Australian, and as a more mature player still lost to Justine at the 2006 Australian, you are crazy to include that on the list. And Maria is 0-2 against Justine at the YEC.


Anyway I don't agree with the owning thing, Maria never beat twice in a row it's true but when she was at her best(during Justine's peak years) she killed her pretty badly

2005 and 2006 were Maria's best years ever and she was killed pretty badly atleast 3 times by Justine, especialy if you consider the 2006 U.S Open final which was closer than all those matches as getting killed pretty badly.


Justine running away because mentally burnt or whatever, couldn't compete anymore. She didn't let her rivals take over her and decided to leave the Tour, easy way out.

Yeah I am sure Justine ran away since she was petrified of Safina, Jankovic, and Ivanovic taking over the tour, the next 3 #1s. :lol:


but karma is a bitch

Indeed, look at Maria now. :help:

justineheninfan
May 7th, 2011, 06:42 PM
Considering Henin was aruably the most "complete" player during most of their matchups, I find it pretty impressive Sharapova won 2 of those meetings, on the big occasions. She doesnt have the movement of a williams or cljisters, so that means she has to hit even HARDER than those players to stay competitive. Henin would find herself being able to hit to the open court to finish points off easier against Sharapova than against Serena or Kim. So considering what type of game Sharapova had to bring to defeat an inform Henin, which was basically hit her off the court, I think she did well. Sharapova is the only one I can think of who has just hit her off the court in the past (iirc Davenport had an even harder time with Henin, which would point to the movement between these players being the problem in this matchup). Serena and Kim didnt so much have to (and honestly, had a hard time) blow Henin off the court because of their sizable movement bonus over Sharapova.

As for the Davenport comparision keep in mind Davenport is even a much worse mover than Sharapova who actually is an adequate and underated mover at her best (although nowhere near the best movers either).

Sp!ffy
May 7th, 2011, 06:44 PM
Indeed, look at Maria now. :help:

At least she's stil playing. Justine is probably miserable in her room polishing her fake replica of the Wimbledon trophy that she bought at the swap meet.

Matt01
May 7th, 2011, 07:07 PM
At least she's stil playing. Justine is probably miserable in her room polishing her fake replica of the Wimbledon trophy that she bought at the swap meet.


I could make multiple jokes about Pova's current "success" on the tour but I'm too classy to do that (eventhough you Pova fans would deserve it :rolleyes:).

s teddy
May 7th, 2011, 07:30 PM
I could make multiple jokes about Pova's current "success" on the tour but I'm too classy to do that (eventhough you Pova fans would deserve it :rolleyes:).

I didn't realize that insulting a player's fans was considered classy. I'll have to remember that.

Jane Lane
May 7th, 2011, 07:34 PM
WTF is this thread? It started as a semi-legitmate question and now it's a just a mess. :weirdo:

Sp!ffy
May 7th, 2011, 07:37 PM
I could make multiple jokes about Pova's current "success" on the tour but I'm too classy to do that (eventhough you Pova fans would deserve it :rolleyes:).

Oh you're so classy Matthew.:hearts:

JCTennisFan
May 7th, 2011, 07:38 PM
I do agree with everyone that Justine has had a better career than Sharapova. 7 slams beats 3 any day. But there are also things about Justine that are less than to be admired. She has been involved in some really eyebrow raising matches (and not in the good way) and has made some decisions that are questionable at best. Though Justine at her best was a more complete player I sometimes really question the way she handled parts of her career.

Never before has there been a number 1 that retired at the top, and ontop of that would come back a little less than 2 years later only to retire soon after again. I really, truely think her comeback (when combined with the way she left the game the first time) really put a bad mark on her overall career, not because she played badly, but because of the way she handled the situation. If you retire at #1, IMO your basically saying "I want to end my career at a high point". But what happened was "I want to end things on a high note only to come back soon after and give it 75% of my best only to retire a 2nd time". Not a pretty way to end such a noteworthy GS career.

JCTennisFan
May 7th, 2011, 07:44 PM
WTF is this thread? It started as a semi-legitmate question and now it's a just a mess. :weirdo:

:lol: Your completely right. It has kinda gone towards whether or not Sharapova's form now is because of her injury, or whether its because she just isnt capable anymore. Oh and with some "she wasnt a good GS champion compared to some other players!" sprinkled in too. Though I havent helped that situation out much :tape:

doomsday
May 7th, 2011, 09:52 PM
Yeah I am sure Justine ran away since she was petrified of Safina, Jankovic, and Ivanovic taking over the tour, the next 3 #1s. :lol:

I said her rivals, you know Maria, Serena and Venus. Players who rolled over her 64 60 and 62 60. I never ever considered Jelena and Safina as Justine's rivals and why are you bothering me with this, she said so herself when she came back, admitting that the losses over Serena and Maria were hard to take and she realised that she had lost the firepower to win these kind of matches.:shrug:

Matt01
May 8th, 2011, 12:14 AM
I didn't realize that insulting a player's fans was considered classy. I'll have to remember that.


Where did I insult a fanbase? :confused:

s teddy
May 8th, 2011, 12:21 AM
Where did I insult a fanbase? :confused:

I could make multiple jokes about Pova's current "success" on the tour but I'm too classy to do that (eventhough you Pova fans would deserve it :rolleyes:).

2 characters

Matt01
May 8th, 2011, 12:28 AM
2 characters


That's not insult.

VishaalMaria
May 8th, 2011, 12:33 AM
I said her rivals, you know Maria, Serena and Venus. Players who rolled over her 64 60 and 62 60. I never ever considered Jelena and Safina as Justine's rivals and why are you bothering me with this, she said so herself when she came back, admitting that the losses over Serena and Maria were hard to take and she realised that she had lost the firepower to win these kind of matches.:shrug:

And the truth shall set you free.

Monzanator
May 8th, 2011, 04:38 AM
2005/06 GOAT-Pova ain't coming back, folks! You would expect the haters being less delusional about Pova fans crying their hearts out about that :happy:

Dominika23
May 8th, 2011, 05:07 AM
After her 2008 start I figured Maria would win 2 or 3 majors that year and take over #1. It's gonna take her a while longer to get back to best, but she's only 24, and who knows, the age of Maria may still be in the cards. I think if she can regain consistency on her serve and the pop on her groundstrokes these disappointments will all be worth it, because I feel they've made Maria a better competitor.

truth and like you said she only 24 she still have alot time to find her game again, really they have female playing way older than her. but overll she doing good this year with her new coach and it always take time to adjust with a new coach

bandabou
May 8th, 2011, 08:43 AM
And the whole "figuring players out" nonsense is cracking me up. Theoretically, if you have two players who are exactly evenly matched (which is honestly about impossible) then each should win half the meetings between them. So if you played someone 6 times and you won 3, you would technically be completely even with them skill wise. You took half, they took half. But then you throw different surfaces into the equation, rampant injuries, and it really becomes incredibly difficult to say.

If you are beating players at GS, then I honestly dont think you have "never" figured them out. Sharapova has beaten Serena at W in the Final, quite convincingly actually, beat Henin in similar fashion in 2006 at the US open, so I dont see how she is completely "owned" by these players.

And people are talking about Mauresmo like she was a consistent force. She has to be the biggest headcase that has won a slam ever (except maybe novotna....)so I cant really see her as something standing in Sharapova's way. Mauresmo had a beautiful game, but no "balls" to back it up. I could even venture to say that without Mauresmo's 06 Aussie win (which had not 1, but TWO retirements in route to that title... in other words one of the weakest performances to win a GS in recent history) she would have not had the self-belief to go on and win at W that year (which is her only credible slam, imo. She truely DID play the best at that tournament, but who is to say her confidence in herself would of been anywhere near that level had she not already won her first GS ealier in the year?) Its a HUGE mental hurdle to win your first GS, and she didnt really have to do much but just show up. The confidence boost it gave her had to be enormous.

:lol: Are you for real? Serena totally wiped out that Wimbledon loss with her '07 Oz open beatdown of Masha, no?! And how can you say that Serena doesn't own Maria, when Maria hasn't beaten Serena since '04?! :shrug:

acetoace
May 8th, 2011, 10:55 AM
And the whole "figuring players out" nonsense is cracking me up. Theoretically, if you have two players who are exactly evenly matched (which is honestly about impossible) then each should win half the meetings between them. So if you played someone 6 times and you won 3, you would technically be completely even with them skill wise. You took half, they took half. But then you throw different surfaces into the equation, rampant injuries, and it really becomes incredibly difficult to say.

If you are beating players at GS, then I honestly dont think you have "never" figured them out. Sharapova has beaten Serena at W in the Final, quite convincingly actually, beat Henin in similar fashion in 2006 at the US open, so I dont see how she is completely "owned" by these players.

And people are talking about Mauresmo like she was a consistent force. She has to be the biggest headcase that has won a slam ever (except maybe novotna....)so I cant really see her as something standing in Sharapova's way. Mauresmo had a beautiful game, but no "balls" to back it up. I could even venture to say that without Mauresmo's 06 Aussie win (which had not 1, but TWO retirements in route to that title... in other words one of the weakest performances to win a GS in recent history) she would have not had the self-belief to go on and win at W that year (which is her only credible slam, imo. She truely DID play the best at that tournament, but who is to say her confidence in herself would of been anywhere near that level had she not already won her first GS ealier in the year?) Its a HUGE mental hurdle to win your first GS, and she didnt really have to do much but just show up. The confidence boost it gave her had to be enormous.




Are u delusional, deranged, ignorant or just plain stupid? Did u actually mean the idiotic statement in bold ink above? Pova figured Serena out? Tell me u ain't serious, or are u? Pova worn a match against a player who returned to the tour approximately 4 months to WB final after almost a year absence and u call that "figured Serena out"? Hmmmmm, any wonder why the convincing "figure out" mantra didn't continue after Serena regained form?

If pova was in Serena's shoes back in 04, based on what we've seen of pova so far since her return from "shoulder injury" (a return that never ends and is touted as ready excuse at every loss; almost 3yrs now and counting), pova definately would not have been in that final talk less of winning the tournament.

Did Pova also "figure Serena out" and was just so brilliant in the 3rd set of the 04 YEC final so much that Serena lost 6 games from 4-0 up? No one else saw that match u know... and nothing was apparent to the reasonable tennis fan's eyes as to the actual reason pova won, right?:rolleyes:

I could give u a lesson right now regarding what "figuring a player out" truely connotes......but need I go there?

laurie
May 8th, 2011, 08:25 PM
This isnt a bashing thread nor a stan thread but honestly looking back,does anybody else think that these past few years should have been "prime" Maria's time to really stand out and dominate the sport?? Henin gone,Mauresmo gone,Serena and Kim part time players and the tour being full on mental midgets and random streak players.

Back when Maria burst on the tour she was a very consistent top player but more often than not one of the Henin/Mauresmo/Clijsters group would always block her(Slam SFs, number 1 rank etc). And then when she finally figured those players out Serena was back as well as a few new faces.It just seems to me back when she was a teenager,though a superb player, she always had the more experienced, faster and versatile triple threat in front of her but once those players were gone then it seemed it would have been her unrivaled time to shine. But given her 2008 start/form and the state of womens tennis recently how many people would have predicted come 2011 Maria would only have 3 slams??? Honestly speaking if Maria were to find her form of old(which before haters chirp in,she was very close to last summer) i really think she would be dominating the tour(and unlike Woz,the majors as well).

I know injuries,and time away from the tour are unfortunate and have stopped reasonably some of the best potential era for players(Seles in 93-95, S&V in 03/04) but its also part of the sport. :(

In Tennis, history has shown that players who win a lot very early in their careers burn out, be it injuries, personal issues, not having had an opportunity to mature properly, outside circumstances beyond their control (Seles). Many of these players tend to be out of contention completely by the age of 25.

Examples? There are many - Martina Hingis, Tracy Austin, Mats Wilander, Lleyton Hewitt, Marat Safin and now Maria Sharapova. Then there's Andrea Jaegger. Michael Chang didn't dominate but his game required too much effort. He won the French Open age 17 then got to three more slam finals bewteen 1995 and 1996 which was seven years after 1989. Then there's the unique case of Monica Seles.

Then there's Boris Becker. You could almost add him to the list but somehow he managed to stay competitive up to his late 20s, winning the Australian Open and ATP Championships age 28 (now World Tour finals) and playing in a Wimbledon final. But he wasn't the player he was between age 17 and 22.

Then there's Serena Williams and Pete Sampras who both won slams as teenagers, then had inconsistent performances for two to three years then came good. Djokovic is doing a similar thing now although he won his first slam age 20.

Whether Sharapova can get back into contention at grand slam level remains to be seen.

Craig.
May 8th, 2011, 08:33 PM
Are u delusional, deranged, ignorant or just plain stupid? Did u actually mean the idiotic statement in bold ink above? Pova figured Serena out? Tell me u ain't serious, or are u? Pova worn a match against a player who returned to the tour approximately 4 months to WB final after almost a year absence and u call that "figured Serena out"? Hmmmmm, any wonder why the convincing "figure out" mantra didn't continue after Serena regained form?

If pova was in Serena's shoes back in 04, based on what we've seen of pova so far since her return from "shoulder injury" (a return that never ends and is touted as ready excuse at every loss; almost 3yrs now and counting), pova definately would not have been in that final talk less of winning the tournament.

Did Pova also "figure Serena out" and was just so brilliant in the 3rd set of the 04 YEC final so much that Serena lost 6 games from 4-0 up? No one else saw that match u know... and nothing was apparent to the reasonable tennis fan's eyes as to the actual reason pova won, right?:rolleyes:

I could give u a lesson right now regarding what "figuring a player out" truely connotes......but need I go there?

That is so not true, I'm so tired of reading this. Stop making shit up, people. What you WANT to believe isn't necessarily REALITY.

JCTennisFan
May 8th, 2011, 08:55 PM
Lol, looks like I ran into some Williams zelots! Did you not read my other post that said it is the IMPORTANT matches that are the ones to look at when going H2h. You throw out all the crap that isnt GS, imo (maybe YEC can be counted, but thats about it..) and THEN you compare. Fact of the matter is that Maria BEAT Serena to win WIMBLEDON, regardless of the other nit picky stuff. Did Henin beat Serena to win W? Did Cljisters? Did Ivanovic? Yeah..... I think I make my point pretty well. Beating serena in the final of W is a HUGE accomplishment, no matter how you spin it (even more so when your 17..). Not to mention that alot of their other GS matches were very closely contested.

Im not trying to say Serena has a worse career, because its obvious she doesnt, but how much damage you think Sharapova could of done if she had a Physically strong/athletic body like Serena. I mean from certain angles.... Serena kinda looks manish, she has that much muscularity. Look at sharapova, she looks like she is more suitable on a runway than on a tennis court. Her body looks like it would shatter after just a few months of the tour, yet she is still around. I dont care what anyone says.... Ms. Sharapova has ALOT of gut, talent, and heart. Cant take those things from her.....

justineheninfan
May 8th, 2011, 10:17 PM
Back on topic I still fail to see how it was ever wide open for Maria to dominate as the OP seems to imply. After the 2008 Australian until today there were 12 slams. The 9 non French Opens were all won by Serena, Clijsters, or Venus. Maria is never going to be the favorite over Serena in a slam final or semi, the 2004 Wimbledon result looks more ancient all the time. That is already 5 probably out, or maybe she is able to topple Serena to win 1 at most. She isnt going to beat Venus at Wimbledon, so that is another 1 out. That leaves only the 3 hard court slams Kim won as possabilities. However Kim has a winning record against Maria and on hard courts, and at Maria's peak in 05-06 it was 2-2, with both wins in 06 when Kim was kind of mediocre anyway, so even those arent easy. As for the French, forget that, she is never winning the French barring major upset, no matter who the opposition is.

Maria from 04-08 was winning 1 slam every 2 years. Probably she might have continued that kind of rate if she stayed healthy, which could have even eventually taken her to 6 or 7 considering she already had 3 at 21. She was never going to dominate the slams, atleast not yet, the final winners are already evidence enough it was not wide open to her to just storm through and win everything, even if the general tour seems wide open. Maybe we can reassess if Maria would have been able to dominate had her career stayed on course if the slam winners become noticeably weaker or the women games chaotic lack of order extends to the slams too, but not yet.

The OP seems to imply Maria suffered from a tough field. Well it was a tougher field back then, but she was lucky she wasnt around even a few years before that when it was even a tougher field. 1998-2003 is still the real glory period of womens tennis, 2004-2007 was a decent period but nothing close to that. Fact is when Maria was at her best she had some big wins but still lost to a whole variety of players in slam semis, quarters, or the occasional final (to her credit she usually won once reached the final)- Clijsters, Henin, Mauresmo, Serena, Venus, Pierce, all took her scalp, in the late rounds of various non clay GSs, along with a few lesser lesser lights even at the various non clay GSs, and when it came to the French Safina a couple times, Henin once, and otherwise a slew of lesser lights. In her prime she still had losing or equal records vs all of Serena, Mauresmo, Henin, Venus, Clijsters, mostly losing. So she just isnt cut out to dominate, she is cut out to be one of the top players who can win slams and maybe be #1 even but definitely not dominate the way Serena and Henin at their best did. She sucks on clay, she isnt really that great on grass long term as proven by her string of early defeats there for many years now, and there are many players she is vurnerable to defeat at any given time to even on hard courts, so how could she ever dominate.

The OP talks of her solving Mauresmo or Henin for example. That could be argued to a degree in the right context, but if you read the OP's argument it would seem to imply those players werent even a problem for her anymore anywhere which is a joke. She beat Mauresmo only once on the one surface Mauresmo never stood a hope of winning a big title on. Of course Mauresmo was finished as a major factor after 06 anyway so the Mauresmo matchup becomes moot, but that is aside the point. And she lost to Henin twice in between her breakthrough wins- further in between those 2 Henin wins which they didnt play for another year span while Henin was playing at a whole other level than Sharapova. That is without even playing on clay where prime Henin would almost make mincemeat of Sharapova even if she played at 140% of her best.

doomsday
May 8th, 2011, 10:31 PM
Back on topic I still fail to see how it was ever wide open for Maria to dominate as the OP seems to imply. After the 2008 Australian until today there were 12 slams. The 9 non French Opens were all won by Serena, Clijsters, or Venus. Maria is never going to be the favorite over Serena in a slam final or semi, the 2004 Wimbledon result looks more ancient all the time. That is already 5 probably out, or maybe she is able to topple Serena to win 1 at most. She isnt going to beat Venus at Wimbledon, so that is another 1 out. That leaves only the 3 hard court slams Kim won as possabilities. However Kim has a winning record against Maria and on hard courts, and at Maria's peak in 05-06 it was 2-2, with both wins in 06 when Kim was kind of mediocre anyway, so even those arent easy. As for the French, forget that, she is never winning the French barring major upset, no matter who the opposition is.

Maria from 04-08 was winning 1 slam every 2 years. Probably at best she might have continued that kind of rate if she stayed healthy, which could have even eventually taken her to 6 or 7 considering she already had 3 at 21. She was never going to dominate the slams, atleast not yet, the final winners are already evidence enough it was not wide open to her to just storm through and win everything, even if the general tour seems wide open.

I agree there were plenty of Slams won by Serena, Venus and Clijsters players who are greater than Maria but Maria already proved that she is capable of beating them when it matters maybe not Venus at Wimbledon, but Serena was seriously vulnerable in 2008 (that match won against Venus in US let's say that match lost by Venus missing 12 sets points or sth) and the way Maria was playing in 2008 was quite fabulous I remember plenty of people agreed here that Maria would have beaten Serena in OZ 2008 but Serena lost earlier(what a shame).
And then there is Clijsters and for you information H2H over Maria is no longer an indication of their matchup; Maria won 3 of the last 4 meetings in straights, her last loss was last year in Cincinnati and again she was about to roast Clijsters before choking, same thing won't happen in majors. Maria figured her out and among these 3 players(Venus, Serena and Clijsters) Maria will be the favorite over Clijsters in a GS final on every surface except clay. Against Serena these days it's pretty over she will neve rbe the favorite but she can surprise us a second time, at least I hope. About Venus, she has no chances on grass so there is still HC but with Venus' record out of grass there won't be many meetings.

justineheninfan
May 8th, 2011, 10:37 PM
I agree there were plenty of Slams won by Serena, Venus and Clijsters players who are greater than Maria but Maria already proved that she is capable of beating them when it matters maybe not Venus at Wimbledon, but Serena was seriously vulnerable in 2008 (that match won against Venus in US let's say that match lost by Venus missing 12 sets points or sth) and the way Maria was playing in 2008 was quite fabulous I remember plenty of people agreed here that Maria would have beaten Serena in OZ 2008 but Serena lost earlier(what a shame).
And then there is Clijsters and for you information H2H over Maria is no longer an indication of their matchup; Maria won 3 of the last 4 meetings in straights, her last loss was last year in Cincinnati and again she was about to roast Clijsters. Maria figured her out and among these 3 players(Venus, Serena and Clijsters) Maria will be the favorite over Clijsters in a GS final on every surface except clay.

The Venus-Serena quarterfinal of the 2008 U.S Open was insane quality. No other women on tour, including Sharapova, could have stayed with either on court that day. Serena hasnt lost to Maria since 2004, seriously lets be real here. For all this talk of who Maria has supposably figured out, nobody has figured out anyone more than Serena clearly figured out Maria sometime in late 04/early 05 and since their tough 05 Australian Open fight has been rolling over her ever since, losing 1 set on clay. :lol: Maria might have a chance against Serena to win on but it is only a very small one on each given day, let alone in the late round of a slam. I did say Maria might have been able to win 1 of Serena's 5 slams which seems generous enough at this point.

As for Clijsters, Kim was not anywhere near her best in 2006-early 2007. She lost 5 times in a row to Mauresmo too, do you think Mauresmo would own her forever if she was still in her prime. :lol: Kim was coachless and just playing out the string, she stayed in the top 5 but lost 12 matches in a row to the big 3 or 4 at the time. IMO 2005 is the year Kim and Maria were both closest to their best, it was Maria's 2nd or 3rd best year overall ever, and Kim's 2nd or 3rd best as well, and Kim won both their meetings. I saw both the matches, both on hard courts, and Maria played quite well and had massive problems with Kim's great defensive skills. So no I dont see Maria as having the edge in that matchup, and I believe the overall H2H is about accurate to how they stack up. Neither player was at their best for all the meetings so it evens out. I do think Maria at her absolute best beats Kim but she has a high risk game and will rarely be at her absolute best so of minor importance to who would win. Anyway Maria wouldnt make the final to play Kim in each of the 3 even had she stayed healthy and kept playing well, after all she is a player with a losing record in slam semis. Lets say Maria wins 1 of Kim's 3 slams had she kept healthy and playing well, again seems generous enough all things considered.

I wont even bother talking about Roland Garros unless someone can bring up any good reason why I should.

So that would mean Maria wins 2 more slams in the last 3 years had everything stayed in order for her, which would be her previous 1 slams every 2 year pace or maybe slightly improved. I think that is the best she was going to do in the interim. This is all a completely hypothetical and pointless anyway really.

Mr.Sharapova
May 8th, 2011, 10:43 PM
The Venus-Serena quarterfinal of the 2008 U.S Open was insane quality. No other women on tour, including Sharapova, could have stayed with either on court that day. Serena hasnt lost to Maria since 2004, seriously lets be real here. For all this talk of who Maria has supposably figured out, nobody has figured out anyone more than Serena clearly figured out Maria sometime in late 04/early 05 and since their tough 05 Australian Open fight has been rolling over her ever since, losing 1 set on clay. :lol: Maria might have a chance against Serena to win on but it is only a very small one on each given day, let alone in the late round of a slam. I did say Maria might have been able to win 1 of Serena's 5 slams which seems generous enough at this point.

As for Clijsters, Kim was not anywhere near her best in 2006-early 2007. She lost 5 times in a row to Mauresmo too, do you think Mauresmo would own her forever if she was still in her prime. :lol: Kim was coachless and just playing out the string, she stayed in the top 5 but lost 12 matches in a row to the big 3 or 4 at the time. IMO 2005 is the year Kim and Maria were both closest to their best, it was Maria's 2nd or 3rd best year overall ever, and Kim's 2nd or 3rd best as well, and Kim won both their meetings. I saw both the matches, both on hard courts, and Maria played quite well and had massive problems with Kim's great defensive skills. So no I dont see Maria as having the edge in that matchup, and I believe the overall H2H is about accurate to how they stack up. Neither player was at their best for all the meetings so it evens out. Anyway Maria wouldnt make the final to play Kim in each of the 3 even had she stayed healthy and kept playing well, after all she is a player with a losing record in slam semis. Lets say Maria wins 1 of Kim's 3 slams had she kept healthy and playing well, again seems generous enough all things considered.

So that would mean Maria wins 2 more slams in the last 3 years had everything stayed in order for her, which would be her previous 1 slams every 2 year pace or maybe slightly improved. I think that is the best she was going to do in the interim. This is all a completely hypothetical and pointless anyway really.

During their matches in 2005 Maria was not at her best. I mean yes in Miami that year she beat some amazing players to reach the final, but still she did really bad in windy conditions there and lost. However in their match at the USO, Maria's serve was spraying everywhere. As soon as she started to rely on it in that second set saving those 5 MP she moved Kim out of her comfort zone, until her service woes stroke again and she lost the third set handily.

I think their H2H is not reliable at all :shrug:.

justineheninfan
May 8th, 2011, 10:46 PM
Kim has never been at her best in any loss to Maria either. Does anyone really think the retiring coachless Kim in late 2006-early 2007 was playing her best, LOL! I would take a win over 2005 Maria over a win over that version of Kim anyday.

Either way I dont think Maria dominates Kim on hard courts during her run, even if Maria were in her prime. At best she has a 50/50 chance. And considering Maria even in her prime isnt going to make all the finals entertaining any idea of her winning all 3 of Kim's hard court slams is laugahble. Like I said maybe 1 of Serena's 5 slams, 1 of Kim's 3, and at most she would be sitting at 5 now barring a huge upset at Roland Garros or something. I think that is more realisic than dominance of the last 3 years.

Raiden
May 8th, 2011, 10:50 PM
I think their H2H is not reliable at all :shrug:.You're right.

Kim should have a more dominating H2H-lead and should have been ahead of Pova by a greater margin than she does now.

Mr.Sharapova
May 8th, 2011, 10:53 PM
You're right.

Kim should have a more dominating H2H-lead and should have been ahead of Pova by a greater margin than she does now.

Yeah right. Cause she's the GOAT :rolleyes:.

justineheninfan
May 8th, 2011, 10:54 PM
Yeah right. Cause she's the GOAT :rolleyes:.

ROTFL and Maria Sharapova is. :lol:

Raiden
May 8th, 2011, 10:57 PM
Yeah right. Cause she's the GOAT :rolleyes:.Look into the mirror you sanctimonious tosser.

It is YOU who are spamming this thread full of baseless garbage and convoluted delusional crap that Maria woulda/coulda/shoulda been ahead of Kim.

I'm just making a mockery of your ludicrous hypocrisy :lol:

Raiden
May 8th, 2011, 10:58 PM
ROTFL and Maria Sharapova is. :lol:lol indeed!

Talk about being wishy-washy :lol:

doomsday
May 8th, 2011, 11:02 PM
The Venus-Serena quarterfinal of the 2008 U.S Open was insane quality. No other women on tour, including Sharapova, could have stayed with either on court that day. Serena hasnt lost to Maria since 2004, seriously lets be real here. For all this talk of who Maria has supposably figured out, nobody has figured out anyone more than Serena clearly figured out Maria sometime in late 04/early 05 and since their tough 05 Australian Open fight has been rolling over her ever since, losing 1 set on clay. :lol: Maria might have a chance against Serena to win on but it is only a very small one on each given day, let alone in the late round of a slam. I did say Maria might have been able to win 1 of Serena's 5 slams which seems generous enough at this point..

It's funny cause when we are talking about Kim h2h vs Maria you are mentionning that Kim was shit in 2006 and what about Maria in 2007? do you really think that Maria was supposed to win 5 games in 2 meetings vs Serena no matter Serena's level of play, please. Maria had this shoulder injury and was NOT supposed to be murdered this way.
About their meeting in 2008 Maria again had her chances to win that match in straights and on clay, Serena saved sets points in the first set IIRC and then again at Wimbledon Serena saved sets points to win the first set(2010 was Maria's worst year on tour btw and still she challenged Serena pretty damn well in that match she should have at least won the first set) like I said a thousand times many people are hiding behind this 6161 and 6162 thing to say that Serena owns Maria etccc but we both know that is not the case, she had several wins over her it's true but you won't make me believe that there is no hope because there were plenty of matches Serena should have lost but again she was always so tough on most importants points I would also admit that mentally Maria seems fragile against Serena maybe because of OZ2005, OZ2007 and Miami 2007 but tennis wise she was always quite close to Serena if not better in 2008.

As for Clijsters, Kim was not anywhere near her best in 2006-early 2007. She lost 5 times in a row to Mauresmo too, do you think Mauresmo would own her forever if she was still in her prime. :lol: Kim was coachless and just playing out the string, she stayed in the top 5 but lost 12 matches in a row to the big 3 or 4 at the time. IMO 2005 is the year Kim and Maria were both closest to their best, it was Maria's 2nd or 3rd best year overall ever, and Kim's 2nd or 3rd best as well, and Kim won both their meetings. I saw both the matches, both on hard courts, and Maria played quite well and had massive problems with Kim's great defensive skills. So no I dont see Maria as having the edge in that matchup, and I believe the overall H2H is about accurate to how they stack up. Neither player was at their best for all the meetings so it evens out. I do think Maria at her absolute best beats Kim but she has a high risk game and will rarely be at her absolute best so of minor importance to who would win. Anyway Maria wouldnt make the final to play Kim in each of the 3 even had she stayed healthy and kept playing well, after all she is a player with a losing record in slam semis. Lets say Maria wins 1 of Kim's 3 slams had she kept healthy and playing well, again seems generous enough all things considered.

2005 US Open match was very close and do I need to remind you that Maria played with a bandage in that match, her serve was very abysmal and it was obvious she had a problem with her shoulder( she retired one week later because of that) Maria's fighting spirit was amazing in this match but to be honest she was far from her best.
Anyway it's very complicated cause I'm pretty sure that in 2006 despite Kim going down, Maria's game was more solid you could see in 2005 that she was really trying to outplay Kim(not the right idea against her) she figured out Kim pretty late and this same year she finally beat Henin and Mauresmo. No doubt in my mind that during San Diego 2006 she played a better tennis and wasn't going for her shots everytime she was absolutely in control with her power from baseline, she was very patient and also worked on her defense to force Kim to make some UE cause the key to beat Kim was never to go for your shots on every rally.
Anyway we've been trough this so many times let's just wait for the return of Serena and Kim and hopefully we can enjoy another battles because obviously this new generation can't please us.

Mr.Sharapova
May 8th, 2011, 11:11 PM
Look into the mirror you sanctimonious tosser.

It is YOU who are spamming this thread full of baseless garbage and convoluted delusional crap that Maria woulda/coulda/shoulda been ahead of Kim.

I'm just making a mockery of your ludicrous hypocrisy :lol:

All you are mocking is yourself, by stating that you love to read garbage and convoluted delusional crap:lol:. Go find another thing to be dealing with moron.

Slutiana
May 9th, 2011, 12:37 AM
It still is. She'll win RG this year - just you watch.

Sp!ffy
May 17th, 2011, 03:41 AM
It still is. She'll win RG this year - just you watch.

Agreed :rocker2:

it-girl
May 17th, 2011, 04:10 AM
Sharapova's too physically fragile. Everyone figured out in 2008 that if Sharapova played the rest of the year like she did the Australian Open, she would have dominated the tour that year. Alas, injury took a toll on her.I'm sorry but there was no way Sharapova was going to dominate 2008. She was not the only player to have a great slam run that year. Venus was on fire at Wimbledon and won it very convincingly. Not to mention the fact that Ana won The French Open playing some excellent tennis on clay. There was no way Maria was going to beat Venus on Grass or Ana on clay. Then Serena won the Us Open, so I find it hard to believe people actually think that Maria would have dominated, when there is absolutely nothing to support this claim.

Who knows what would have happened at the 08 Aussie Open if Serena never would have been injured. That is something to consider also. I think Maria had a excellent Aussie Open that year but as for dominating, that was never going to happen.

it-girl
May 17th, 2011, 04:13 AM
It still is. She'll win RG this year - just you watch.Sorry but no, it's not going to happen.

bandabou
May 17th, 2011, 04:29 AM
It's funny cause when we are talking about Kim h2h vs Maria you are mentionning that Kim was shit in 2006 and what about Maria in 2007? do you really think that Maria was supposed to win 5 games in 2 meetings vs Serena no matter Serena's level of play, please. Maria had this shoulder injury and was NOT supposed to be murdered this way.
About their meeting in 2008 Maria again had her chances to win that match in straights and on clay, Serena saved sets points in the first set IIRC and then again at Wimbledon Serena saved sets points to win the first set(2010 was Maria's worst year on tour btw and still she challenged Serena pretty damn well in that match she should have at least won the first set) like I said a thousand times many people are hiding behind this 6161 and 6162 thing to say that Serena owns Maria etccc but we both know that is not the case, she had several wins over her it's true but you won't make me believe that there is no hope because there were plenty of matches Serena should have lost but again she was always so tough on most importants points I would also admit that mentally Maria seems fragile against Serena maybe because of OZ2005, OZ2007 and Miami 2007 but tennis wise she was always quite close to Serena if not better in 2008.


Serena doesn't need it to be a blow out for her to beat Masha, that's the thing. She can destroy Masha, she can grind out the tough matches as well...not much room for Masha there then, no? :shrug:

doomsday
May 17th, 2011, 07:59 AM
I'm sorry but there was no way Sharapova was going to dominate 2008. She was not the only player to have a great slam run that year. Venus was on fire at Wimbledon and won it very convincingly. Not to mention the fact that Ana won The French Open playing some excellent tennis on clay. There was no way Maria was going to beat Venus on Grass or Ana on clay. Then Serena won the Us Open, so I find it hard to believe people actually think that Maria would have dominated, when there is absolutely nothing to support this claim.

Who knows what would have happened at the 08 Aussie Open if Serena never would have been injured. That is something to consider also. I think Maria had a excellent Aussie Open that year but as for dominating, that was never going to happen.

Maria playing a decent tennis can certainly beat Ana on clay, especially in a GS final.
And wait? Serena was injured during OZ 2008 well I wasn't aware of that:lol:

Serena doesn't need it to be a blow out for her to beat Masha, that's the thing. She can destroy Masha, she can grind out the tough matches as well...not much room for Masha there then, no? :shrug:

Maria can destroy her as well but we both know that shouldn't be the case if they are both healthy and playing well.
Maria is NOT a great matchup for Serena either, you guys are just paying attention about two meetings OUT of 8(meetings Maria was clearly in pain) but whatever let's just enjoy future matchups so Serena better come back soon I want some tough matches between Clijsters, Sharapova and she.

bandabou
May 17th, 2011, 08:28 AM
Maria playing a decent tennis can certainly beat Ana on clay, especially in a GS final.
And wait? Serena was injured during OZ 2008 well I wasn't aware of that:lol:



Maria can destroy her as well but we both know that shouldn't be the case if they are both healthy and playing well.
Maria is NOT a great matchup for Serena either, you guys are just paying attention about two meetings OUT of 8(meetings Maria was clearly in pain) but whatever let's just enjoy future matchups so Serena better come back soon I want some tough matches between Clijsters, Sharapova and she.

:lol: It's you guys who always come up with: ' Masha was soooo injured on her shoulder, she could barely walk' anytime people bring up Charleston. She just won Oz open and what was it, Miami or IW? soooo...

Destroy?! Serena destroyed Maria more times than vice-versa. It doesn't have to be easy, as long as Serena wins..and she's done that pretty much for 7 years now since Masha's last win. But of course now Serena's age might be catching up with her, so this might the window for Masha to get some wins.

doomsday
May 17th, 2011, 09:16 AM
:lol: It's you guys who always come up with: ' Masha was soooo injured on her shoulder, she could barely walk' anytime people bring up Charleston. She just won Oz open and what was it, Miami or IW? soooo...

Destroy?! Serena destroyed Maria more times than vice-versa. It doesn't have to be easy, as long as Serena wins..and she's done that pretty much for 7 years now since Masha's last win. But of course now Serena's age might be catching up with her, so this might the window for Masha to get some wins.

2 times vs 1, not a BIG deal and that wasn't my point anyway.
And :lol: at the age card it's just the way it is plus the window is not that big considering Serena only shows up at majors.

bandabou
May 17th, 2011, 09:44 AM
2 times vs 1, not a BIG deal and that wasn't my point anyway.
And :lol: at the age card it's just the way it is plus the window is not that big considering Serena only shows up at majors.

The age card is truly valid. Serena is almost 30, so it's a slowing-down age. Have to be realistic.
it's all about the majors. What? Don't tell me you still don't have enough faith that Masha's gonna last long enough to meet Serena at the majors?! :eek: ;)

doomsday
May 17th, 2011, 09:58 AM
The age card is truly valid. Serena is almost 30, so it's a slowing-down age. Have to be realistic.
it's all about the majors. What? Don't tell me you still don't have enough faith that Masha's gonna last long enough to meet Serena at the majors?! :eek: ;)

I do, but I'm not sure we'll see many meetings between them plus we don't know when Serena is coming back.

bandabou
May 17th, 2011, 11:01 AM
I do, but I'm not sure we'll see many meetings between them plus we don't know when Serena is coming back.

:sobbiing: Serenaaaa...

justineheninfan
May 17th, 2011, 03:09 PM
Maria playing a decent tennis can certainly beat Ana on clay, especially in a GS final.

Ana spanked Maria badly at the 2007 French in the semifinals, which was Maria's best ever French Open. Ana completely outplayed Maria in that match, hitting winners all day and outmaneuvering her. Maria is by far the better player on all other surfaces, but on clay a confident and in form Ana is better. Then again who knows, Maria may have tanked knowing she had no prayer against Henin in the final on clay anyway. :lol:

esquímaux
May 17th, 2011, 03:47 PM
I want to see Maria win this year's French Open. When I saw her take that painful-looking spill against Wozniacki, my heart went out to her.

Monzanator
May 17th, 2011, 03:55 PM
Ana spanked Maria badly at the 2007 French in the semifinals, which was Maria's best ever French Open. Ana completely outplayed Maria in that match, hitting winners all day and outmaneuvering her. Maria is by far the better player on all other surfaces, but on clay a confident and in form Ana is better. Then again who knows, Maria may have tanked knowing she had no prayer against Henin in the final on clay anyway. :lol:

You're right, peak clay Ivanovic would have beaten peak Claypova, but in 2011 Ivanovic would be butt-kicked by Pova methinks ;)

justineheninfan
May 17th, 2011, 04:01 PM
Yes if Ana plays Maria at the French this year she will probably be destroyed. Not in 2007 or 2008 though, that is for sure.

18majors
May 17th, 2011, 04:01 PM
"This is just the beginning of many things to come. This is just the start of everything," Sharapova said during the trophy presentation of 2011 Italian Open.

The Maria time is yet to come.

doomsday
May 17th, 2011, 05:24 PM
Ana spanked Maria badly at the 2007 French in the semifinals, which was Maria's best ever French Open. Ana completely outplayed Maria in that match, hitting winners all day and outmaneuvering her. Maria is by far the better player on all other surfaces, but on clay a confident and in form Ana is better. Then again who knows, Maria may have tanked knowing she had no prayer against Henin in the final on clay anyway. :lol:

:lol: best result you mean because it was certainly not her best level of play that year, she got "lucky" to reach SF here she was injured and her serve was shit she was serving around 80/95mph in all her matches she got lucky she didn't meet any big returner until Ana of course(and no she didn't tank Ana was better that day and Maria would have won more games against Henin for sure despite losing so no there was no tank).
Anyway I said a decent Maria which include good serve and good game and there is no doubt she has chances to take Ana out on clay at any stage.

justineheninfan
May 17th, 2011, 07:02 PM
Maria would have won more games against Henin than Ana based on what exactly pray tell? That Ana is a better clay courter than Henin or a tougher matchup for Maria than Henin. :lol:

If the 2007 French was not Maria's best level at the French Open then when was it? 2004 when she got double breadsticked by Paula Saurez. 2005 when she got spanked by Henin who had been down match point to Kuzntsova the previous round. 2006 when she lost to Safina back when Safina was a nobody after being up 4-0 in the final set. 2008 when she lost to Safina in the round of 16 yet again. You say she was lucky to beat Schnyder, what is your point exactly, Schnyder skill wise was always a better clay courter than even mid 2000s Maria, so Maria was never going to have an easy time with her.

To date 2007 was Maria's best French Open and best level at the French Open. We will see this year. Maria of the past years was never as good a clay courter as Ana 2007-2008 though, and I say that as someone who mostly finds Ana an overhyped bimbo. Remember the discussion is about hypotheticals of 2008 mostly now, nothing to do with current.

atominside
May 17th, 2011, 07:08 PM
^ you're dumb. just get it somewhere in your head that maria played without a serve in that FO. Her first serve was avg 85mph. It was her best result but not level. She reached the semis on fight and determination.

doomsday
May 17th, 2011, 07:45 PM
Maria would have won more games against Henin than Ana based on what exactly pray tell? That Ana is a better clay courter than Henin or a tougher matchup for Maria than Henin. :lol: .

Because Ana was crushing Maria's serve sth Henin never did against Maria, Henin is a great returner but her game is not about big returns and big serve(at least in her first career:lol:) Ana's match vs Maria was mostly about serve and ROS.

If the 2007 French was not Maria's best level at the French Open then when was it? 2004 when she got double breadsticked by Paula Saurez. 2005 when she got spanked by Henin who had been down match point to Kuzntsova the previous round. 2006 when she lost to Safina back when Safina was a nobody after being up 4-0 in the final set. 2008 when she lost to Safina in the round of 16 yet again. You say she was lucky to beat Schnyder, what is your point exactly, Schnyder skill wise was always a better clay courter than even mid 2000s Maria, so Maria was never going to have an easy time with her.

I would say 2008 when she almost defeat Safina, I know she had a tough first round but I'd say 2008 she was playing an interesting clay court game. She almost defeated Safina(she had a Mpoint) who reached the final beating Dementieva and Kuz on her way.

To date 2007 was Maria's best French Open and best level at the French Open. We will see this year. Maria of the past years was never as good a clay courter as Ana 2007-2008 though, and I say that as someone who mostly finds Ana an overhyped bimbo. Remember the discussion is about hypotheticals of 2008 mostly now, nothing to do with current.

Maria was never as good as Ana by her results I agree with that but it doesn't mean that in one meeting Maria can't beat Ana.
Safina always had better clay results than Maria but when they faced each other at the French Maria should have won those two meetings but she choked.