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View Full Version : Who's better on clay: Clijsters or Safina?


BlueTrees
May 3rd, 2011, 03:45 AM
In terms of their careers.

Roland Garros Finalist: Clijsters 2, Safina 2
Tier I&PM&P5 Titles/Finalist: Clijsters 1/1, Safina 3/0

Discuss. :p

Lin Lin
May 3rd, 2011, 04:31 AM
I think it's hard to say:awww:

In The Zone
May 3rd, 2011, 04:34 AM
On pure ability, you would of course have to go with Kim. However, as we've seen, mental ability counts just as much as physical ability. Perhaps the 12-10 final scarred Miss Fiona but she has never been able to piece together her game on the clay even though it fits the surface perfectly. Safina FTW. Easily.

Crux Squall
May 3rd, 2011, 05:01 AM
Kim, 4 sure

starin
May 3rd, 2011, 05:10 AM
I actually think on clay Safina 08/09 would win. Clijsters would struggle with heavy balls Safina produces and would get impatient trying to hit through Safina who actually has good defense on clay.

VeeJJ
May 3rd, 2011, 05:44 AM
The Empress.
Thread Closed.

justineheninfan
May 3rd, 2011, 06:34 AM
Clijsters easily. She reached 2 French Open finals and won mostly similar level of clay court events in a much tougher era than Safina. Kim was unlucky to play her best clay court tennis in the era of Henin, and before that as an up and comer against Capriati, Serena, and again Henin. Had Kim peaked on clay when Safina did she would have easily won a French, probably multiple.

Does anyone think if Kim and Safina had ever played in a French Open final (which would neccesitate both being near their peaks) that Kim wouldnt have destroyed Safina. It is laughable to suggest Safina is a better player than Kim at her best on any surface.

VeeJJ
May 3rd, 2011, 06:37 AM
Clijsters easily. She reached 2 French Open finals and won mostly similar level of clay court events in a much tougher era than Safina. Kim was unlucky to play her best clay court tennis in the era of Henin, and before that as an up and comer against Capriati, Serena, and again Henin. Had Kim peaked on clay when Safina did she would have easily won a French, probably multiple.

Does anyone think if Kim and Safina had ever played in a French Open final (which would neccesitate both being near their peaks) that Kim wouldnt have destroyed Safina.

I agree with most of your post but I doubt Peak Kim would Destroy Peak Safina. Kim would win but only because she is mentally stronger. Dinara has the better clay game but that doesn't mean she is better when playing on the surface. She should be but she isn't because of her weak mentality.

justineheninfan
May 3rd, 2011, 06:39 AM
I agree with most of your post but I doubt Peak Kim would Destroy Peak Safina. Kim would win but only because she is mentally stronger. Dinara has the better clay game but that doesn't mean she is better when playing on the surface. She should be but she isn't because of her weak mentality.

What is stronger about Safina's game on the surface though. What does she do better. Does she have better groundstrokes (I dont think so), better defense (FOR SURE not, despite that her defense is pretty good on clay and Kim's not as great as on hard courts), better serving or returning (no), better point construction (no), better finesse shots for the clay (no), better angles (no), better consistency (no), better abiilty to grind (no), more patience (no), more use of spin (meh, maybe a tiny bit at most).

BlueTrees
May 3rd, 2011, 06:49 AM
You're missing the point. Peak Kim on clay would not destroy Peak Safina, as you stated. I know I didn't specify that in the original post, but in terms of career achievements, you can't just chuck Safina's out the window because she sucks now.

KBlade
May 3rd, 2011, 06:50 AM
What is stronger about Safina's game on the surface though. What does she do better. Does she have better groundstrokes (I dont think so), better defense (FOR SURE not, despite that her defense is pretty good on clay and Kim's not as great as on hard courts), better serving or returning (no), better point construction (no), better finesse shots for the clay (no), better angles (no), better consistency (no), better abiilty to grind (no), more patience (no), more use of spin (meh, maybe a tiny bit at most).

Safina's serve in 2008 to early 2009 was actually pretty good to be honest. It was at the very least reliable. I would argue that on clay she also has better groundstrokes. The spin and extra heft she places on the ball, her height, and large back swings means that her ground strokes are suited to clay more than any other surface. Dinara's defence on the surface is hardly as big of a flaw as you make it out to be. She's certainly no Davenport.

In case you haven't been watching so far this year, Kim's service has been far from the benchmark. Her game is pretty vanilla really. Her style works reasonably well on nearly all surfaces.

justineheninfan
May 3rd, 2011, 06:55 AM
Safina's serve in 2008 to early 2009 was actually pretty good to be honest. It was at the very least reliable. I would argue that on clay she also has better groundstrokes. The spin and extra heft she places on the ball, her height, and large back swings means that her ground strokes are suited to clay more than any other surface. Dinara's defence on the surface is hardly as big of a flaw as you make it out to be. She's certainly no Davenport.

In case you haven't been watching so far this year, Kim's service has been far from the benchmark. Her game is pretty vanilla really. Her style works reasonably well on nearly all surfaces.

If we are talking about their respective bests on clay though Kim of today doesnt matter either. That would be 2001-2003 period roughly for Kim, 2008-2009 roughly for Safina. Heck we both agree in other discussions Kim isnt even playing her best ever tennis on hard courts, just getting the best results.

I did not realize I made Dinara's defense out to be a big flaw on clay. I actually acknowledged she had pretty good defense on clay, the only surface that is true on really, while Kim's is not as great as on hard courts. Despite that though it would be pretty ridiculous to suggest a mediocre mover like Safina is better defensively on any surface than Kim, one of the very best defenders of the last decade.

You have a point about the groundstrokes on clay and might well be right. Still in the back of my mind I cant really see Safina going toe to toe with peak Capriati from the baseline like Kim did in the 2001 French Open final.

I never found Safina's serve reliable. She had trouble with double faults and getting first serves in under pressure even in 2008-2009.

I am not one of those Kim worshippers who have been popping up with her latest success. Still I have a hard time seeing Safina being favored over her at their mutual best on any surface, although clay is clearly the only surface Safina could even have a hope.

VeeJJ
May 3rd, 2011, 06:55 AM
What is stronger about Safina's game on the surface though. What does she do better. Does she have better groundstrokes (I dont think so), better defense (FOR SURE not, despite that her defense is pretty good on clay and Kim's not as great as on hard courts), better serving or returning (no), better point construction (no), better finesse shots for the clay (no), better angles (no), better consistency (no), better abiilty to grind (no), more patience (no), more use of spin (meh, maybe a tiny bit at most).

Better serve, yes. More spin, heavier pace shots, yes. Finesse shots, yes. Consistency, debatable: Kim can consistently defend while Dinara can consistently hit the shit out of the ball, I'd give Dinara the edge. Better point construction, yes. Dinara's pace and spin would keep Kim on the move, defending. Composure is the defining attribute, Kim has it, Dinara doesn't.

justineheninfan
May 3rd, 2011, 07:03 AM
Finesse shots, seriously!?! This is Safina you are talking about right. Not that Clijsters is great at those either, but Safina doesnt have the slighest bit of ability to hit with feel or finesse. I dont think I have ever seen her attempt a drop shot that wasnt a laugher. And her so called majorly overpowering game couldnt even hit through 40 year old Date (yeah I know she wasnt at her best anymore, but still seriously).

I admit I am probably not the best one to get involved in a debate on this with though as I genuinely was never that impressed with Safina period, even when at her best in 2008-2009. I am of the large school who believes she was a hugely bogus #1 who got there by accident for a bit during the trainwreck of the WTA tour. She was a good solid player, and on clay which is by far her best surface a very good player, but not someone who ever belonged at such a place. And I am one who will give due credit to even players I dont like (eg- Serena, Seles, Sharapova). I know there are some who rate her abilities more highly than I do though, so to each their own in this case.

VeeJJ
May 3rd, 2011, 07:34 AM
Safina df. Henin Berlin R3 5-7, 6-3, 6-1.

KBlade
May 3rd, 2011, 08:04 AM
Finesse shots, seriously!?! This is Safina you are talking about right. Not that Clijsters is great at those either, but Safina doesnt have the slighest bit of ability to hit with feel or finesse. I dont think I have ever seen her attempt a drop shot that wasnt a laugher. And her so called majorly overpowering game couldnt even hit through 40 year old Date (yeah I know she wasnt at her best anymore, but still seriously).

I admit I am probably not the best one to get involved in a debate on this with though as I genuinely was never that impressed with Safina period, even when at her best in 2008-2009. I am of the large school who believes she was a hugely bogus #1 who got there by accident for a bit during the trainwreck of the WTA tour. She was a good solid player, and on clay which is by far her best surface a very good player, but not someone who ever belonged at such a place. And I am one who will give due credit to even players I dont like (eg- Serena, Seles, Sharapova). I know there are some who rate her abilities more highly than I do though, so to each their own in this case.

I actually agree with this a little. While both of them hardly ever approach the net, when Clijsters does, she usually handles herself reasonably well, whereas I hardly ever remember the last time I saw Dinara at net for anything other than a swinging volley.

Soliloque
May 3rd, 2011, 08:32 AM
Kim, when she cares.

C. Drone
May 3rd, 2011, 08:35 AM
:spit:
justineheninfan is the typical troll who posts in every Safina related thread just to diss her.

skanky~skanketta
May 3rd, 2011, 09:47 AM
Kim is. Just because Kim has one of the best defensive games around, I feel that people often forget how good her offense is. Playing Safina, I believe that Kim would be able to throw a few bombs back herself. She hits terrific angles and would pull Safina all over the pace. However, the problem is that Kim never fully reached her potential on the surface. With her game, it should have suited clay perfectly!

That said, tt wont be a easy victory though as Safina has a great game on clay.

Shivank17
May 3rd, 2011, 10:08 AM
Dinara.
When she is 100% fit(Which she never is :crying2: ) she can do wonders on clay which we saw in 2009.Clay is definitely Dinara's.

JJ Expres
May 3rd, 2011, 10:10 AM
i don't know why people underestimate safina.and i'm not sure that people would chose kim if she didn't come back :shrug:

BartoLiNa
May 3rd, 2011, 10:17 AM
Peak vs peak I would give the edge to Kim, and I'm a Safina fan.

Pump-it-UP
May 3rd, 2011, 10:33 AM
Safina. Doesnt she have 3 Tier I's? 08 Berlin, 09 Rome/Madrid... :shrug: Plus she has a better list of scalps. She's beaten everyone relevant on clay.

Miracle Worker
May 3rd, 2011, 10:36 AM
Peak vs peak:

In Rome would win Safina.
In Roland Garros would win Clijsters.

BlueTrees
May 3rd, 2011, 11:01 AM
Safina. Doesnt she have 3 Tier I's? 08 Berlin, 09 Rome/Madrid... :shrug:

Oops. Don't know how I messed that one up. :o Thanks. :)

Betten
May 3rd, 2011, 11:05 AM
Plus she has a better list of scalps. She's beaten everyone relevant on clay.

Clijsters also had her share of wins on clay:

2002 Hamburg F - V. Williams (1) - 1-6, 6-3, 6-4
2005 Berlin 2R - D. Safina (36) - 7-5, 6-2
2003 Berlin QF - D. Hantuchova (9) - 6-0, 6-3
2003 Berlin SF - J. Capriati (7) - 6-4, 6-7(2), 6-4
2003 Rome QF - A. Myskina (11) - 6-2, 6-2
2003 Rome F - A. Mauresmo (6) - 3-6, 7-6(3), 6-0
2005 Warsaw QF - F. Schiavone (11) - 6-4, 6-4
2005 Warsaw SF - E. Dementieva (9) - 7-5, 6-4
2005 Warsaw F - S. Kuznetsova (10) - 7-5, 6-2
2003 French Open QF - C. Martinez (22) - 6-2, 6-1
2005 French Open QF - M. Hingis (15) - 7-6(5), 6-1
2003 French Open SF - N. Petrova (76) - 7-5, 6-1
2001 French Open SF - J. Henin (16) - 2-6, 7-5, 6-3

Soliloque
May 3rd, 2011, 11:19 AM
Clijsters also had her share of wins on clay:

2002 Hamburg F - V. Williams (1) - 1-6, 6-3, 6-4
2005 Berlin 2R - D. Safina (36) - 7-5, 6-2
2003 Berlin QF - D. Hantuchova (9) - 6-0, 6-3
2003 Berlin SF - J. Capriati (7) - 6-4, 6-7(2), 6-4
2003 Rome QF - A. Myskina (11) - 6-2, 6-2
2003 Rome F - A. Mauresmo (6) - 3-6, 7-6(3), 6-0
2005 Warsaw QF - F. Schiavone (11) - 6-4, 6-4
2005 Warsaw SF - E. Dementieva (9) - 7-5, 6-4
2005 Warsaw F - S. Kuznetsova (10) - 7-5, 6-2
2003 French Open QF - C. Martinez (22) - 6-2, 6-1
2005 French Open QF - M. Hingis (15) - 7-6(5), 6-1
2003 French Open SF - N. Petrova (76) - 7-5, 6-1
2001 French Open SF - J. Henin (16) - 2-6, 7-5, 6-3

This, Kim has beaten every relevant player of her time on clay (except for Serena, but they never met and Serena on clay is just relevant in RG and Kim and Serena have played RG in the same time only 3 times : 2001, 2002 and 2003, never in the same part of draw).

TheBoiledEgg
May 3rd, 2011, 11:41 AM
even if we're talking about now
Dinara would win
Dinara is playing on clay whilst Kim is Pole Dancing

The Witch-king
May 3rd, 2011, 11:53 AM
When was the last time Kim even won a match on clay? I don't remember

Betten
May 3rd, 2011, 12:08 PM
When was the last time Kim even won a match on clay? I don't remember

Last year, during Fed Cup.

Ashi
May 3rd, 2011, 12:12 PM
Safina thinks Clay is her best surface and has the results to prove it.

Kim has some very good results on this surface, but does she believe she is comfortable and has full confidence on clay? I'd think not.

Betten
May 3rd, 2011, 12:18 PM
I think Safina would be more than a challenge for Clijsters (on clay) if both played well. She doesn't really do anything better than Clijsters, but she feels very much at home on the surface, while Clijsters tends to get annoyed with it. I would actually favour her over Clijsters, mainly because of Clijsters' tendency to defeat herself on the dirt (does anybody remember her match against Davenport in 2005 at the French Open?).

Matt01
May 3rd, 2011, 01:15 PM
even if we're talking about now
Dinara would win
Dinara is playing on clay whilst Kim is Pole Dancing


This :lol:

Uranus
May 3rd, 2011, 03:28 PM
Kim, of course, and by far. Just because she despises clay and practically never plays on it, doesn't mean Dinara is better.

justineheninfan
May 3rd, 2011, 04:28 PM
Safina df. Henin Berlin R3 5-7, 6-3, 6-1.

Clijsters defeated Henin in the French Open semis in 2001 which is a way bigger match, and Kim wasnt even in her prime.

Ashi
May 3rd, 2011, 04:32 PM
Justine wasn't in her prime on clay in that match either.

justineheninfan
May 3rd, 2011, 04:39 PM
Justine wasn't in her prime on clay in that match either.

True, so it evens out. While 2008 was Dinara at her peak and an unmotivated Henin in total suck mode who would soon retire. And Kim's win is still the much bigger match.

Safina is probably the most overrated player on this forum so not surprised at the laughable poll results. Safina even won the poll as best #1 out of Ivanovic, Wozniacki, and Jankovic too, ROTFL!!!

Ashi
May 3rd, 2011, 04:52 PM
True, so it evens out. While 2008 was Dinara at her peak and an unmotivated Henin in total suck mode who would soon retire. And Kim's win is still the much bigger match.

Safina is probably the most overrated player in my opinion so not surprised at the laughable poll results. Safina even won the poll as best #1 out of Ivanovic, Wozniacki, and Jankovic too, ROTFL!!!

Justine was the World No 1. ;) Too bad Dinara never got a chance to face justine at RG on her best surface.:rolleyes: She retired at the hands of Dinara, on clay as well. Corrected your post too. :p

Lapaco
May 3rd, 2011, 04:54 PM
tf is reaching depths of despair with these threads. nothing interesting is going on in actual events :lol:

Betten
May 3rd, 2011, 04:59 PM
tf is reaching depths of despair with these threads. nothing interesting is going on in actual events :lol:

Indicative of the tour, I guess, that people are discussing all these older players, none of whom are currently playing.

justineheninfan
May 3rd, 2011, 06:52 PM
Too bad Dinara never got a chance to face justine at RG on her best surface.:rolleyes:

Yeah too bad since we would have gotten to see Henin double bagel her if it ever happened.

And Henin was ranked #1 due to being by far the best player in the World in 2007 and coming into 2008 with a huge points lead. In 2008 she had already eaten bagels from Serena and Maria, and lost other matches and sets to a sequence of clowns, with a tier 4 title highlighing her year.

Tennis Ball
May 3rd, 2011, 06:55 PM
Clijsters easily. She reached 2 French Open finals and won mostly similar level of clay court events in a much tougher era than Safina. Kim was unlucky to play her best clay court tennis in the era of Henin, and before that as an up and comer against Capriati, Serena, and again Henin. Had Kim peaked on clay when Safina did she would have easily won a French, probably multiple.

Does anyone think if Kim and Safina had ever played in a French Open final (which would neccesitate both being near their peaks) that Kim wouldnt have destroyed Safina. It is laughable to suggest Safina is a better player than Kim at her best on any surface.

this.
Don't even mention Kim and Dina in the same sentence. What is it with these newbie fans? The comparison is ridiculous.

Betten
May 3rd, 2011, 07:13 PM
In 2008 she had already eaten bagels from Serena and Maria, and lost other matches and sets to a sequence of clowns, with a tier 4 title highlighing her year.

Antwerp was always a Tier II/Premier tournament :wavey:

(though admittedly her opponents that year were pretty weak)

Ashi
May 3rd, 2011, 07:26 PM
Yeah too bad since we would have gotten to see Henin double bagel her if it ever happened.

You'd like to dream wouldn't you? :lol:

justineheninfan
May 3rd, 2011, 07:30 PM
You'd like to dream wouldn't you? :lol:

The only dream is by a dumb Safinatard like yourself thinking peak Safina who had to save match points to even beat Sharapova at the French Open, and was drubbed badly in her 2 finals by Ivanovic and Kuznetsova, would even want to set foot on court with Henin at Roland Garros, let alone actually have a chance. :lol: Talk about a lamb being led to the slaughterhouse.

Ashi
May 3rd, 2011, 07:33 PM
In 2008, sure she would. :angel: You said so yourself, what with Henin in total suck mode. Haters gonna Hate. :wavey:

justineheninfan
May 3rd, 2011, 07:39 PM
Henin even in suck mode would still beat the mental clown Safina at Roland Garros, especialy in a late round. What is Safina's biggest ever win at Roland Garros, Maria freaking Sharapova on clay after saving match points, ROTFL!! Dumb fans going to be dumb fans.

Ashi
May 3rd, 2011, 07:46 PM
Please, neither peak kim( who this thread is about :angel:) nor peak Henin would destroy Peak Safina on clay. I'd fancy Safina's chances.
Dumb haters going to be dumb haters.

Cherry.
May 3rd, 2011, 08:47 PM
Kim by far.

Lapaco
May 3rd, 2011, 09:02 PM
Please, neither peak kim( who this thread is about :angel:) nor peak Henin would destroy Peak Safina on clay. I'd fancy Safina's chances.
Dumb haters going to be dumb haters.

:help:

skanky~skanketta
May 4th, 2011, 05:20 AM
Please, neither peak kim( who this thread is about :angel:) nor peak Henin would destroy Peak Safina on clay. I'd fancy Safina's chances.
Dumb haters going to be dumb haters. I know it's your opinion, but what? Peak Justine had immense movement, strokes, variety and mental fortitude. She's the best clay courter of her generation, as her achievements on the surface shows. She would beat Safina in relatively easy sets.

Ashi
May 4th, 2011, 05:31 AM
Yeah too bad since we would have gotten to see Henin double bagel her if it ever happened.

:oh: It was a reply to this statement. :angel:

I think Safina would have given a good fight at her 2008/2009 level on clay. Would she have won?. Who knows?. Since such a match up never took place.

If you read this thread carefully, I never once say Safina is better than clijsters on this surface. I just pointed out that you can't necessarily negate a win of safina over henin in 08 by saying that Kim also won over henin in 02.

Henin was not at her peak both times. And it took considerable talent and effort to beat henin on clay by both these players. Hence, who is better on this surface is still debatable. Also, because their careers aren't over.

Shivank17
May 4th, 2011, 06:15 AM
Henin even in suck mode would still beat the mental clown Safina at Roland Garros, especialy in a late round. What is Safina's biggest ever win at Roland Garros, Maria freaking Sharapova on clay after saving match points, ROTFL!! Dumb fans going to be dumb fans.

Says a dumb JH fan? :rolleyes:
Well Dinara had beaten Kuzzy,Elena D that year as well and next year,you saw her routs right? Just shows when fit she can route any one.
And RG is not the ONLY Clay tourney.She has beaten "Justine Henin" ,Serena Williams,Venus Williams,Maria Sharapova,Elena D,Svetlana Kuznetsova,Caroline Wozniacki on Clay.And at least she doesn't have to cheat like Henin,to win matches. :ras: She is just not fit,injury prone,her bad luck.You hate her cause you are scared of her coming back to full fitness and beating everyone like she did in 08-09.

Shivank17
May 4th, 2011, 06:18 AM
I know it's your opinion, but what? Peak Justine had immense movement, strokes, variety and mental fortitude. She's the best clay courter of her generation, as her achievements on the surface shows. She would beat Safina in relatively easy sets.

You can't say that. :o
Justine would be the favorite ,but in an extremely close match against Peak Safina,Henin would get it in 3.Outside RG,Peak Dinara may win it as well!

justineheninfan
May 4th, 2011, 07:31 AM
ROTFLLLLL at some of the insane posters in this thread. "Peak Safina" was thumped by Kuznetsova and Ivanovic at Roland Garros, got her ass totally kicked in especialy by Kuznetsova. Peak Henin, peak Serena, peak Capriati, even peak Clijsters would all destroy Safina at Roland Garros. A super tight 3 setter is what peak Safina plays against Maria "cow on ice on clay" Sharapova as proven in the past, not against a real clay courter. Safina has got to be one of the most overrated players on this forum and her fans are the biggest idiots outside of the worst Sharapova fans as this thread proves.

skanky~skanketta
May 4th, 2011, 07:45 AM
You can't say that. :o
Justine would be the favorite ,but in an extremely close match against Peak Safina,Henin would get it in 3.Outside RG,Peak Dinara may win it as well!
Why not? :confused:
Justine has the results to back it up. :bounce:

skanky~skanketta
May 4th, 2011, 07:46 AM
:oh: It was a reply to this statement. :angel:

I think Safina would have given a good fight at her 2008/2009 level on clay. Would she have won?. Who knows?. Since such a match up never took place.

If you read this thread carefully, I never once say Safina is better than clijsters on this surface. I just pointed out that you can't necessarily negate a win of safina over henin in 08 by saying that Kim also won over henin in 02.

Henin was not at her peak both times. And it took considerable talent and effort to beat henin on clay by both these players. Hence, who is better on this surface is still debatable. Also, because their careers aren't over.
Apologies, it wasn't meant to come out as an attack.

C. Drone
May 4th, 2011, 09:05 AM
ROTFLLLLL at some of the insane posters in this thread. "Peak Safina" was thumped by Kuznetsova and Ivanovic at Roland Garros, got her ass totally kicked in especialy by Kuznetsova. Peak Henin, peak Serena, peak Capriati, even peak Clijsters would all destroy Safina at Roland Garros. A super tight 3 setter is what peak Safina plays against Maria "cow on ice on clay" Sharapova as proven in the past, not against a real clay courter. Safina has got to be one of the most overrated players on this forum and her fans are the biggest idiots outside of the worst Sharapova fans as this thread proves.

:rolls::rolls::rolls::rolls::rolls::rolls:
look who is talkin.
are you that idiot you can't see what are you doing?
you are stating how ugly and bad she is in every post, than stating you don't even watch her and don't even care, and still you are replying with your bullshit in every thread when somebody mention her.
Why? why are you so obsessed? I tell you why.
You are just a bitter shit.

Shivank17
May 4th, 2011, 01:51 PM
ROTFLLLLL at some of the insane posters in this thread. "Peak Safina" was thumped by Kuznetsova and Ivanovic at Roland Garros, got her ass totally kicked in especialy by Kuznetsova. Peak Henin, peak Serena, peak Capriati, even peak Clijsters would all destroy Safina at Roland Garros. A super tight 3 setter is what peak Safina plays against Maria "cow on ice on clay" Sharapova as proven in the past, not against a real clay courter. Safina has got to be one of the most overrated players on this forum and her fans are the biggest idiots outside of the worst Sharapova fans as this thread proves.

Ivanovic and Kuznetsova are class players.The same Kuznetsova breezed past some one called Justine Henin at AO this year. :rolleyes: And Safina lost mentally to Kuzzy ,its the mental pressure which got better of her.Even your "peak" Henin has been thrashed at her peak,remember how Maria thrashed your Henin 6-4 6-0 at AO,ending her winning streak.And the cow on ice on clay you were talking about almost defeated Clay GOAT Henin last year. :ras: Just shows what a wannabe you are,fans like you insult the players you support.

Mr.Sharapova
May 4th, 2011, 02:02 PM
Safina wins in this one.

When Safina was on her peak at clay, she had great footwork on it, great serve and ground strokes and a great attitude as far as the patience is concerned :shrug:.

BlueTrees
May 4th, 2011, 02:37 PM
ROTFLLLLL at some of the insane posters in this thread. "Peak Safina" was thumped by Kuznetsova and Ivanovic at Roland Garros, got her ass totally kicked in especialy by Kuznetsova. Peak Henin, peak Serena, peak Capriati, even peak Clijsters would all destroy Safina at Roland Garros. A super tight 3 setter is what peak Safina plays against Maria "cow on ice on clay" Sharapova as proven in the past, not against a real clay courter. Safina has got to be one of the most overrated players on this forum and her fans are the biggest idiots outside of the worst Sharapova fans as this thread proves.

Sigh. Seriously get a life. And look at the poll result anyway and see who's winning. :wavey:

Bobisa
May 4th, 2011, 03:03 PM
Voted for Safina :)

Jajaloo
May 4th, 2011, 03:16 PM
Safina won Rome AND Madrid :oh:

Soliloque
May 4th, 2011, 03:19 PM
Sigh. Seriously get a life. And look at the poll result anyway and see who's winning. :wavey:

Cause polls ont TF are always reflecting the truth. That's why Sharapova wins almost every WWW poll. :wavey:

Fact is that Kim has beaten the best players of her time on clay, she has played 2 Roland Garros final, being two points away of winning one. Safina has embarrassed herself during her two finals, against average players. Clijsters at 70% will always be better than peak Safina on any surface.

Beat
May 4th, 2011, 03:29 PM
The Empress.
Thread Closed.

yeah, because she reached so many finals at RG.

C. Drone
May 4th, 2011, 03:36 PM
Cause polls ont TF are always reflecting the truth. That's why Sharapova wins almost every WWW poll. :wavey:


Maria has one of the biggest fanbase here, while Dinara has maybe... 5 fans? :lol:

Caralenko
May 4th, 2011, 04:13 PM
Clijsters at 70% will always be better than peak Safina on any surface.

Cincinnati 2009 Quarterfinal: [1] Dinara Safina def. [WC] Kim Clijsters 6-2 7-5.

American Hardcourt, Kim's best surface, and she was 3 weeks away from defeating both Williams sisters to win the US Open. How do you define what percentage ~Mistress Saint of Saints GOAT Kim~ is at? Do you carry a little dial? Do you have a formometer? Or will you go back to the ever-predictable "She only cares bout slams in her second career"?
Dinara wasn't even at her peak (the startings of a hairline fracture) in that match and still beat Kim, who was somewhat rusty, in straights (not on clay, but on Kim's turf).
Your (subjective) claims are as wild as Osama's beard. There is no point comparing results nearly a decade apar, with completely different players at completely different stages of their careers.

Just like there's not much to gain from using this match to answer the thread's question. But Dinara has bigger titles than Kim on clay, so that pretty much solidifies my answer- and by the looks of it, the answer of the majority of readers.

And Justineheninfan operating as usual.
(And for the record, I love them both but I still believe peak Justine would eat Dinara on clay... That's just how match ups work in tennis- but once again you show that you'll take even the most random of occasions to be a ****).

hurricanejeanne
May 4th, 2011, 04:20 PM
Dina.

Matt01
May 4th, 2011, 04:22 PM
Fact is that Kim has beaten the best players of her time on clay, she has played 2 Roland Garros final, being two points away of winning one.


And Safina `didn't?



Safina has embarrassed herself during her two finals, against average players. Clijsters at 70% will always be better than peak Safina on any surface.


Well, Clijsters embarassed herself as well in her final against Henin, and her other RG final wasn't much better :tape:

Soliloque
May 4th, 2011, 04:35 PM
Cincinnati 2009 Quarterfinal: [1] Dinara Safina def. [WC] Kim Clijsters 6-2 7-5.

American Hardcourt, Kim's best surface, and she was 3 weeks away from defeating both Williams sisters to win the US Open. How do you define what percentage ~Mistress Saint of Saints GOAT Kim~ is at? Do you carry a little dial? Do you have a formometer? Or will you go back to the ever-predictable "She only cares bout slams in her second career"?
Dinara wasn't even at her peak (the startings of a hairline fracture) in that match and still beat Kim, who was somewhat rusty, in straights (not on clay, but on Kim's turf).
Your (subjective) claims are as wild as Osama's beard. There is no point comparing results nearly a decade apar, with completely different players at completely different stages of their careers.

Just like there's not much to gain from using this match to answer the thread's question. But Dinara has bigger titles than Kim on clay, so that pretty much solidifies my answer- and by the looks of it, the answer of the majority of readers.

And Justineheninfan operating as usual.
(And for the record, I love them both but I still believe peak Justine would eat Dinara on clay... That's just how match ups work in tennis- but once again you show that you'll take even the most random of occasions to be a ****).


Kim was not even playing at 20% of her level during that match in Cincinati (her third match after her come back, but if you really think that your example is good, well, good for you...). I think you've never seen Kim Clijsters best level, even on clay if you truly believe that Safina can compete with her. I've nothing against Safina, I'm a fan and she was one of my faves during Kim's retirement. I know them both very well and I know that Safina is not in Kim's league, even on clay. Just watch the Rome 2003 final against Mauresmo or the Berlin final against Henin, you'll see than when on, Kim Clijsters is a really, really good claycourter.

Soliloque
May 4th, 2011, 04:41 PM
And Safina `didn't?

She did, I was not talking about her in this sentance.



Well, Clijsters embarassed herself as well in her final against Henin, and her other RG final wasn't much better :tape:


Losing 12/10 in the third against Jennifer Capriati. At 18. What an embarassement. I know you don't like Kim, but stop being stupid just to diss her.

Betten
May 4th, 2011, 04:41 PM
Well, Clijsters embarassed herself as well in her final against Henin, and her other RG final wasn't much better :tape:

How exactly is stretching the world number one and reigning AO champion to 12-10 in the third set in your first major final embarassing yourself?

Caralenko
May 4th, 2011, 04:44 PM
Kim was not even playing at 20% of her level during that match in Cincinati (her third match after her come back, but if you really think that your example is good, well, good for you...). I think you've never seen Kim Clijsters best level, even on clay if you truly believe that Safina can compete with her. I've nothing against Safina, I'm a fan and she was one of my faves during Kim's retirement. I know them both very well and I know that Safina is not in Kim's league, even on clay. Just watch the Rome 2003 final against Mauresmo or the Berlin final against Henin, you'll see than when on, Kim Clijsters is a really, really good claycourter.

Of course I don't believe that was Peak Kim. But dude, you can't just make these statements as facts since we have NEVER seen Peak Kim vs. Peak Dinara, on clay or otherwise. I'm not saying Kim is some hack on clay, nobody is, but someone's level against say, Mauresmo in 2003, is very specific and impossible to replicate (especially with a different opponent). There is no way to say who would win between 2003 Kim and 2008~09 Dinara, but as of right now Dinara's titles on clay beat Kim's and that is ultimately what the OP was looking for.

Betten
May 4th, 2011, 04:44 PM
Just watch the Rome 2003 final against Mauresmo or the Berlin final against Henin, you'll see than when on, Kim Clijsters is a really, really good claycourter.

A lot of people on this board have never even seen Clijsters at her peak on clay, so it isn't too surprising that Safina is leading this poll.

Betten
May 4th, 2011, 04:48 PM
There is no way to say who would win between 2003 Kim and 2008~09 Dinara, but as of right now Dinara's titles on clay beat Kim's and that is ultimately what the OP was looking for.

If this type of discussion was all about counting titles then it wouldn't be a discussion at all. And as has become apparent from this thread, the matter is certainly debatable beyond merely counting titles.

Caralenko
May 4th, 2011, 04:49 PM
If this type of discussion was all about counting titles then it wouldn't be a discussion at all. And as has become apparent from this thread, the matter is certainly debatable beyond merely counting titles.
(I hope you realize these 'better' discussions stem from boredom and the majority of the forum feeling the need to 'protect' their favourites?)

The question was: Who's better on clay- Clijsters or Safina?

Clearly the one with the most success on the surface, which I'd imagine would be measurable in titles. But a GREAT match with Mauresmo in 2003 makes up for the other 2 Tier Is, for sure!

Soliloque
May 4th, 2011, 04:50 PM
Of course I don't believe that was Peak Kim. But dude, you can't just make these statements as facts since we have NEVER seen Peak Kim vs. Peak Dinara, on clay or otherwise. I'm not saying Kim is some hack on clay, nobody is, but someone's level against say, Mauresmo in 2003, is very specific and impossible to replicate (especially with a different opponent). There is no way to say who would win between 2003 Kim and 2008~09 Dinara, but as of right now Dinara's titles on clay beat Kim's and that is ultimately what the OP was looking for.

The 2008/2009 clay seasons were nothing compared to the 2001/2003 clay seasons with Venus, Serena, Kim, Justine, Mauresmo, etc, at their best on clay. Sure Dinara has more clay titles, but her opponents were not the same.

Caralenko
May 4th, 2011, 04:52 PM
The 2008/2009 clay seasons were nothing compared to the 2001/2003 clay seasons with Venus, Serena, Kim, Justine, Mauresmo, etc, at their best on clay. Sure Dinara has more clay titles, but her opponents were not the same.

I've never seen you take this stance when people say the same thing about Kim winning the majority of her slams because of the tour's "slump"? :confused:

duhcity
May 4th, 2011, 04:53 PM
Kim was not even playing at 20% of her level during that match in Cincinati (her third match after her come back, but if you really think that your example is good, well, good for you...). I think you've never seen Kim Clijsters best level, even on clay if you truly believe that Safina can compete with her. I've nothing against Safina, I'm a fan and she was one of my faves during Kim's retirement. I know them both very well and I know that Safina is not in Kim's league, even on clay. Just watch the Rome 2003 final against Mauresmo or the Berlin final against Henin, you'll see than when on, Kim Clijsters is a really, really good claycourter.

Lord. When she beat Bartoli after her Stanford win in her comeback it was all SHE'S TOP 10, KIM WILL SAVE THE TOUR, etc.
Except clearly it was clearly 20% Kim. Hell Bartoli is such a shit player to lose to 20% Kim.

And how is it absolutely impossible for Safina to compete with Kim? In the same vein, I think you've never seen Safina's best level on clay. I don't think Dinara would win, but a tight 3 setter isn't out of the question. Dinara has more weight on her shots, and a peak Dinara wouldn't miss. Kim would have to defend awfully well and take her chances. If they were at the best, I'd see something like 2-6 6-3 7-5 for Kim, Dinara having led 4-1 in the 3rd.

Matt01
May 4th, 2011, 04:54 PM
Losing 12/10 in the third against Jennifer Capriati. At 18. What an embarassement. I know you don't like Kim, but stop being stupid just to diss her.

How exactly is stretching the world number one and reigning AO champion to 12-10 in the third set in your first major final embarassing yourself?


Read again, I did not say that that match was embarassing. I said it wasn't "much better". And that is because it was a horrible, horrible match.

Mistress of Evil
May 4th, 2011, 05:01 PM
Kimberly easily :awww: Her game is just made for clay, too bad she lacks the self-belief on the surfaces and hate to play on it.

Betten
May 4th, 2011, 05:02 PM
(I hope you realize these 'better' discussions stem from boredom and the majority of the forum feeling the need to 'protect' their favourites?)

The question was: Who's better on clay- Clijsters or Safina?

Clearly the one with the most success on the surface, which I'd imagine would be measurable in titles. But a GREAT match with Mauresmo in 2003 makes up for the other 2 Tier Is, for sure!

Yes, of course, but that doesn't mean people can't bring good arguments to the table, instead of reducing it to counting titles. Mauresmo has more carpet titles than Serena Williams - does that simple fact automatically make her the better player on the surface?

Betten
May 4th, 2011, 05:07 PM
Read again, I did not say that that match was embarassing. I said it wasn't "much better". And that is because it was a horrible, horrible match.

And the next eight French Open finals were such classics? :lol:

I would rather watch a match of that quality than any of the forgettable finals we've had since.

Matt01
May 4th, 2011, 05:11 PM
And the next eight French Open finals were such classics? :lol:

I would rather watch a match of that quality than any of the forgettable finals we've had since.


Safina vs. Ivanovic was of higher quality IMO :shrug:

Soliloque
May 4th, 2011, 05:37 PM
I've never seen you take this stance when people say the same thing about Kim winning the majority of her slams because of the tour's "slump"? :confused:

As a Caro disliker, I'm the first one to say that the tour is in a slump for years.

justineheninfan
May 4th, 2011, 06:38 PM
Ivanovic and Kuznetsova are class players.

Prime Henin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Prime Ivanovic and Kuznetsova on clay or any surface. Ivanovic and Kuznetsova spank "peak Safina" at RG, Henin slaughters her. Capiche.


The same Kuznetsova breezed past some one called Justine Henin at AO this year.

And the cow on ice on clay you were talking about almost defeated Clay GOAT Henin last year.

LOL so you bring up matches of Henin WAY past her prime to try to make a point. Idiot. Prime Henin of 2003-2007 thrashed Kuznetsova regularly on hard courts, grass, everywhere. Prime Henin destroyed Sharapova both times they met on clay.

If you are going to reference post prime Henin she still made a slam final and ranked top 15, while post prime Safina loses regularly to 40 year old Date, a former top 10 player 15 years ago and struggles to stay top 100. Next.


And Safina lost mentally to Kuzzy ,its the mental pressure which got better of her.

LOL being a mental midget is part of the game. Safina cant handle the pressure playing Kuznetsova yet she would playing Henin. :lol:

Even your "peak" Henin has been thrashed at her peak,remember how Maria thrashed your Henin 6-4 6-0 at AO,ending her winning streak.

Peak Maria on hard courts >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ivanovic or Kuznetsova on clay. And Henin isnt a hard court specialist, she is a clay specialist like Safina (but is still way better on hard courts too then Safina is on any surface, including clay). BTW Henin has a winning H2H even with your beloved Maria on hard courts.