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View Full Version : Who is better on hardcourt:Venus or Justine?


Lin Lin
May 3rd, 2011, 01:56 AM
I think it's hard to say:confused::confused:

KBlade
May 3rd, 2011, 01:59 AM
I love Venus, but Justine has slams at both the US Open and Australian Open. :shrug:

Doully
May 3rd, 2011, 02:18 AM
AO is a deal sealer. Justine.

AcesHigh
May 3rd, 2011, 02:20 AM
resumes? Justine
Who was better on hardcourts at their peak? Venus probably would have demolished Henin.

danieln1
May 3rd, 2011, 02:22 AM
Venus obviously...

VeeJJ
May 3rd, 2011, 02:32 AM
We need stats to back up these threads. Venus has a better HC resume right?

young_gunner913
May 3rd, 2011, 02:38 AM
Whats with all these thread? :lol:

Venus.

AcesHigh
May 3rd, 2011, 02:40 AM
We need stats to back up these threads. Venus has a better HC resume right?

Unfortunately.. no. :mad:

VeeJJ
May 3rd, 2011, 02:43 AM
Whats with all these thread? :lol:

Venus.

It's off season duh!

In The Zone
May 3rd, 2011, 02:49 AM
I don't think it is as black and white to say Justine has an AO title so therefore she is better.

2004? No Serena and Vee's first tournament back from injury after 7 months off. No, that is not an asterisk for Justine's win but it is just a valid thing to say.

Venus has only lost in slam finals to Serena (other than her rookie debut versus Hingis). Whereas Justine has lost to a number of persons.

Like Aces said, Venus' 2000-2002 form would have beaten Justine from 2007 in 2.

Monzanator
May 3rd, 2011, 02:51 AM
Venus :shrug:

Stonerpova
May 3rd, 2011, 03:41 AM
This is a tough one. Yes Justine has one more hard court major, but Venus leads the head to head and at her best would beat Henin pretty convincingly. So actually it's not a tough one :lol:

starin
May 3rd, 2011, 04:01 AM
Justine with the better record at hc slams but Venus at her peak would've routined Justine in straight sets on US hc. In Australia I could imagine Justine pulling through while Venus pretends she's playing Pironkova and implodes.

Mistress of Evil
May 3rd, 2011, 04:30 AM
Lin Lin :sobbing:

thrust
May 3rd, 2011, 04:39 AM
AO is a deal sealer. Justine.

I agree, though it is close.

rimon
May 3rd, 2011, 04:48 AM
Justine, and it's not even close. She has a very solid record at both AO and USO. Venus had a very poor record at the AO. Just look at her losses since 2004:

2004: Raymond. :rolleyes:
2005: Molik, although to be fair, she was in the form of her life.
2006: Pironkova. :lol:
2007: DNP.
2008: Ivanovic. :shrug:
2009: Suarez Navarro. :tape:
2010: Li. :rolleyes:
2011: Petkovic, although that can be overlooked, seeing that she retired after one game.

Lord Choc Ice
May 3rd, 2011, 04:49 AM
I like Venus better but I think the answer is Christine.

young_gunner913
May 3rd, 2011, 06:05 AM
Justine, and it's not even close. She has a very solid record at both AO and USO. Venus had a very poor record at the AO. Just look at her losses since 2004:

2004: Raymond. :rolleyes:
2005: Molik, although to be fair, she was in the form of her life.
2006: Pironkova. :lol:
2007: DNP.
2008: Ivanovic. :shrug:
2009: Suarez Navarro. :tape:
2010: Li. :rolleyes:
2011: Petkovic, although that can be overlooked, seeing that she retired after one game.

It's a good thing the Australian Open isn't the only hardcourt tournament there is huh?

Henpova
May 3rd, 2011, 06:13 AM
It's a good thing the Australian Open isn't the only hardcourt tournament there is huh?

But Justine Has a high winning % on hard and she has more slams.....Also Venus dose lead the head to head...with all but one meeting before Justine hit her peak...and Venus was at hers...so I don't think that really say a whole lot....

So I think It is Justine....but then again...on this forum...despite all of Justine stats...most people will say Venus....

faboozadoo15
May 3rd, 2011, 06:23 AM
Henin. Duh.

KBlade
May 3rd, 2011, 06:40 AM
I think I'm beginning to change my mind. Australian Open Semi-final 03' anyone? Peak Venus totally routined Justine in that match.

VeeJJ
May 3rd, 2011, 06:41 AM
But Justine Has a high winning % on hard and she has more slams.....Also Venus dose lead the head to head...with all but one meeting before Justine hit her peak...and Venus was at hers...so I don't think that really say a whole lot....

So I think It is Justine....but then again...on this forum...despite all of Justine stats...most people will say Venus....

The two met when Henin was at her Peak: USO SF 2007. Venus was no where near her peak and Justine squeezed out a very tough competitive win 7-6, 6-4 in probably the best 2 set match of all time. What does that make you think would have happened if Venus was at her peak.

thegreendestiny
May 3rd, 2011, 06:51 AM
Juju Heng. No AO no glory for Venus.

justineheninfan
May 3rd, 2011, 07:01 AM
I would go with Justine since her overall record is better. She has done much better at both the Australian Open and WTA Championships. Venus has done much better in Miami. At the U.S Open and even Olympics they are comparable (Venus has a better overall U.S Open record but still only same # of titles despite many more attempts). Still Henin has performed more consistently over more of the hard court events than Venus.

justineheninfan
May 3rd, 2011, 07:05 AM
resumes? Justine
Who was better on hardcourts at their peak? Venus probably would have demolished Henin.

LOL Venus at her "peak" in 2001-2002 had to go 3 sets with Henin in almost every match they played when Henin herself was nowhere near her peak.

doomsday
May 3rd, 2011, 07:12 AM
Justine, no doubt.

justineheninfan
May 3rd, 2011, 07:24 AM
Venus has only lost in slam finals to Serena (other than her rookie debut versus Hingis).


Making your (thus far anyway) last slam final outside of Wimbledon at only 22 certainly helps that stat. :lol: If Justine never made another slam final outside of the French Open after 2004 we could say she lost slam finals nowhere to anyone except her rookie debut versus Venus.

kwilliams
May 3rd, 2011, 12:20 PM
But Justine Has a high winning % on hard and she has more slams.....Also Venus dose lead the head to head...with all but one meeting before Justine hit her peak...and Venus was at hers...so I don't think that really say a whole lot....

So I think It is Justine....but then again...on this forum...despite all of Justine stats...most people will say Venus....

Do Justine fans ever get tired of this excuse? Justine won their first ever encounter and their second encounter was the Wimbledon Final (where Henin pushed Venus to a third set!). They are 4-1 on hardcourts, 1-1 on clay and 2-0 on grass. Venus was just a poor match-up for Henin. It doesn't mean Venus was far superior to Henin but in two careers as close as theirs in accomplishments it can be used to illustrate a particular advantage for Venus (along with her longevity, prize money, larger number of slam finals and overall finals and her doubles career) just as Justine's larger number of weeks at number one and slam wins at three venues are advantages for her.

Venus' head to head over Justine has a little to do with Justine not quite being at her peak the first couple of times they played - but she was also no longer an up-and-comer. Venus was a poor match-up for her and there's no shame in that for Henin.

The Witch-king
May 3rd, 2011, 12:28 PM
Venus obviously.

Olórin
May 3rd, 2011, 12:32 PM
Unlike the other Belgian-Williams poll, this one is a toughie.

Mightymirza
May 3rd, 2011, 12:40 PM
heng... :)

rimon
May 3rd, 2011, 12:44 PM
Do Justine fans ever get tired of this excuse? Justine won their first ever encounter and their second encounter was the Wimbledon Final (where Henin pushed Venus to a third set!). They are 4-1 on hardcourts, 1-1 on clay and 2-0 on grass. Venus was just a poor match-up for Henin. It doesn't mean Venus was far superior to Henin but in two careers as close as theirs in accomplishments it can be used to illustrate a particular advantage for Venus (along with her longevity, prize money, larger number of slam finals and overall finals and her doubles career) just as Justine's larger number of weeks at number one and slam wins at three venues are advantages for her.

Venus' head to head over Justine has a little to do with Justine not quite being at her peak the first couple of times they played - but she was also no longer an up-and-comer. Venus was a poor match-up for her and there's no shame in that for Henin.

:help: ALL of Venus's wins were before Justine won a single slam. There's no getting around that. This, IMO, is THE most misleading H-2-H in WTA history. Venus one led Kim 6-2, now Kim leads 7-6.

The Witch-king
May 3rd, 2011, 12:48 PM
:help: ALL of Venus's wins were before Justine won a single slam. There's no getting around that. This, IMO, is THE most misleading H-2-H in WTA history. Venus one led Kim 6-2, now Kim leads 7-6.

Because as everyone knows Kim and Justine are the same players and play the exact same style of tennis. Naturally Venus's matches with Kimberley are indicative of what her matches with Justine would be.

Olórin
May 3rd, 2011, 12:54 PM
:help: ALL of Venus's wins were before Justine won a single slam. There's no getting around that. This, IMO, is THE most misleading H-2-H in WTA history. Venus one led Kim 6-2, now Kim leads 7-6.

The only thing that there is no "getting around" is the fact that the H2H is 7-2. A highly dominant one. It probably should be a bit closer, and Kim probably shouldn't lead both Justine and Venus in the H2H. But that's the way it is.

bandabou
May 3rd, 2011, 01:02 PM
No oz open titles, hurts Vee...because Juju at u.s. open same record..2 titles, 1 F...but Juju's more solid at the Oz open. 1 title, 2 F's. Plus of course 2 YEC's.
Wow, who would've guessed this after ' 01 season when Vee cruised through both Wimbledon and U.S. open barely breaking a sweat.

skanky~skanketta
May 3rd, 2011, 01:29 PM
Venus has a game so much better suited for hardcourts. I love Justine and agree that accomplishment wise, she's better, but Venus played better on HCs.

Venus' game is tailor made for hardcourts while Justine's is for clay. That said, both are/were immensely gifted players who managed to translate their games to other surfaces and win accordingly!

doooma6816
May 3rd, 2011, 01:35 PM
It's close...but Justine.

new-york
May 3rd, 2011, 01:36 PM
:help: ALL of Venus's wins were before Justine won a single slam. There's no getting around that. This, IMO, is THE most misleading H-2-H in WTA history. Venus one led Kim 6-2, now Kim leads 7-6.

Justine trashed Venus in straight sets the first time they played. Every win counts and 7-2 it is.

I do feel like they would have close matches on every surface playing their best. :drool:

Matt01
May 3rd, 2011, 01:42 PM
^ Yes, both playing at their peaks, it would be close.

But because of Henin's consistancy and thus better results, the answer is now Henin. Obviously.

Betten
May 3rd, 2011, 01:45 PM
I don't know. It still baffles me that these two met only nine times.

justineheninfan
May 3rd, 2011, 05:31 PM
The only thing that there is no "getting around" is the fact that the H2H is 7-2. A highly dominant one. It probably should be a bit closer, and Kim probably shouldn't lead both Justine and Venus in the H2H. But that's the way it is.

Actually that only proves further how irrelevant head to head is. Otherwise you are conceding Clijsters is a better player than both Justine and Venus. And that Sharapova is a way better player than Davenport (5-1 head to head).

As for those idiots who say it isnt a misleading H2H, Lindsay Davenport led Henin 6-1 at the same time Venus and Henin played their 2nd last ever match, Clijsters also owned Henin at that point, I believe freaking Hantuchova had a winning record, and even granny Seles led 4-1 at that point. I guess in that case Venus's head to head with Jana Novotna (1-3) isnt misleading at all either though.

I dont agree with New York they would have close matches on every surface playing their best. They would have close matches on everything but grass and clay with both playing their best. Henin at her best would thrash Venus at her best on clay, but Venus at her best would thrash Henin at her best on grass. A neutral hard court especialy would be very close.

justineheninfan
May 3rd, 2011, 05:32 PM
Venus has a game so much better suited for hardcourts. I love Justine and agree that accomplishment wise, she's better, but Venus played better on HCs.

Venus' game is tailor made for hardcourts while Justine's is for clay. That said, both are/were immensely gifted players who managed to translate their games to other surfaces and win accordingly!

Venus's game is tailor made for grass is more like. With 2 hard court slams a year she has managed to win only 2 in her long career, with 1 grass court slam she has managed to win 5. She has gone over 8 years without reaching a hard court slam final now. I wonder which surface her game is tailor made to.

Olórin
May 3rd, 2011, 05:47 PM
Actually that only proves further how irrelevant head to head is. Otherwise you are conceding Clijsters is a better player than both Justine and Venus. And that Sharapova is a way better player than Davenport (5-1 head to head).




No-one claimed the H2H is the one defining factor in determining who is better. Read more carefully. Of course, like any stat it is open to interpretation, but that doesn't change the stat itself which remains as an indicator.

And the fact Kim has been able to edge Venus and Justine in the H2H doesn't mean she is better than either - but when you look at titles and now slam wins it reflects the fact that in several areas Kim has become very close or surpassed the 7-slam champs in recent years. Further, when you look at the fact that a lot of Kim's meetings with Venus and Justine were on hardcourts, the H2H shows that Kim has been a better elite player on hardcourts for longer than those two.

I was making a point that you can't explain away a H2H so easily as it may first seem possible to do so. Of course the data is often biased - doesn't mean it's entirely useless. Perhaps a little more thoughtful critical analysis wouldn't go amiss.

Apoleb
May 3rd, 2011, 05:54 PM
As for those idiots who say it isnt a misleading H2H, Lindsay Davenport led Henin 6-1 at the same time Venus and Henin played their 2nd last ever match, Clijsters also owned Henin at that point, I believe freaking Hantuchova had a winning record, and even granny Seles led 4-1 at that point. I guess in that case Venus's head to head with Jana Novotna (1-3) isnt misleading at all either though.



Exactly. At the time Justine was losing to Venus, she was getting overpowered on hard courts left, right and center including Hantuchova!!!$#!@31

That h-2-h means practically nothing. It only means that Venus was better in 2001-2002, and we all knew that.

If we can somehow imagine both playing their best (2007 USO Henin vs 2002 Venus), it will be a very tight match. We will have to go with their accomplishments, and Henin clearly wins there. The h-2-h can only be useful as a tie-breaker anyway, and we're not even there.

Next.

Smitten
May 3rd, 2011, 06:36 PM
Henin has won the biggest tournament on Rebound Ace. Venus has not.
They've both succeeded at the U.S. Open.
Henin has been to the Australian Open F on Plexicushion. Venus hasn't made a SF.
Henin has THREE hardcourt slams. Venus has TWO at the same venue.
Henin has better statistics.

The answer is Henin.