PDA

View Full Version : The reaction to "slurs"


pov
Apr 14th, 2011, 03:23 PM
Kobe Bryant is the latest in a long line of people who have been told in firm terms that the thought police doesn't accept their choice of words. The idea that certain words are a - "bad" and b - always an indication that the user is anti something or the other are delusions that have a strong footing. It's as if the thought police and its supporters ignore that words in anger are meant to cause a reaction. A reaction that is the choice of the hearer not the one saying the word. I have used words that are considered slurs - across the board. I've run the table on it. And I'm okay with that. I've also had all sort of slurs thrown at me. And I'm okay with that too. Because really the only times those slurs have bothered me are the times in which I wasn't feeling good about myself in the first place.

People who consider themselves "marginalized" or discriminated against and continue to make themselves feel bad about what others think/say about them are perpetuating their own sense of less than. The outcomes of this PC nonsense are that people continue to make themselves beholding to others and that there will be no way to let out a moment of anger. Not letting people verbally blow of steam simply means that they internalize that moment of anger and are more likely to really build a feeling of anti- something or the other.

Super Dave
Apr 14th, 2011, 03:46 PM
I agree. The way I am, I need to get anger out in short bursts. I cannot keep it inside; I would spontaneously combust.

And I don't think Kobe should be crucified for what he did. Just because he used those words doesn't mean he hates certain groups of people. Right or wrong, men sometimes use that language in the heat of the moment and there is no deep meaning to it - it's an impulse reaction. It's playground trash talk. Hell, I've mouthed (i.e. under my breath) those words at my son's opposing Little League coach when he cheats. It may not be pretty but as pov said, it does not mean there is a hatred toward any group involved.

That may not be a nice answer, and it may not make total sense, but it's real at least.

ampers&
Apr 14th, 2011, 03:52 PM
What exactly did Kobe say? Oh, and I'll have more to add to this tomorrow morning but not tonight. Been a long, exhausting day and I want to think carefully about how I want to respond to the initial post. I do know I don't necessarily agree with certain points raised.

Super Dave
Apr 14th, 2011, 03:58 PM
What exactly did Kobe say? Oh, and I'll have more to add to this tomorrow morning but not tonight. Been a long exhausting day and I want to think carefully about how I want to respond to the initial post.

He stormed over to the bench after a technical foul and yelled the ref's name then said "F***ing f*ggot". Again, it's playground trash talk; younger guys throw that word around all the time ("fag") even when kidding around with friends. I can see how those in the gay community would be offended at the term, but as hard as it may be to understand, nothing anti-gay is meant by it. Trust me. Doesn't make it the most pleasant thing to do, but the intent behind it is not hateful.

Super Dave
Apr 14th, 2011, 04:11 PM
And I must say, though I have used that term in the past, it's not a habit. At all. I'm much more likely to use regular ol' 4- and 5- letter curse words when really angry. ;) (Though those also are almost never heard by anyone. I'm good and turning my head and grumbling them under my breath)

Drake1980
Apr 14th, 2011, 04:20 PM
Is the ref actually gay?

Super Dave
Apr 14th, 2011, 04:21 PM
Is the ref actually gay?

No, I don't think so.

ampers&
Apr 14th, 2011, 04:25 PM
He stormed over to the bench after a technical foul and yelled the ref's name then said "F***ing f*ggot". Again, it's playground trash talk; younger guys throw that word around all the time ("fag") even when kidding around with friends. I can see how those in the gay community would be offended at the term, but as hard as it may be to understand, nothing anti-gay is meant by it. Trust me. Doesn't make it the most pleasant thing to do, but the intent behind it is not hateful.
That assumption is absurd. In fact, it's absurd enough to make me not want to "trust" a word you have to say. :o In any event, to adamantly say that nothing anti-gay or hateful is meant by it shows a lack empathy and understanding towards the power of language and the history of discrimination and hurt that connotes with a word. Depending on its usage, yes it can be harmless (the connection you have with the person making that slur, situational circumstances, etc) but even then if I call a friend a "fag" jokingly (I don't, but still...), it would probably be associated with a negative behavior I want to insult. And when it's thrown about as an insult in a situation in which someone is livid and wanting an outward escape to express that anger at a person, then yes there is the good possibility that there is some loathing and prejudice present (whether it be subconscious or innate). To dismiss it simply as "playground trash talk" is not only disrespectful towards those who feel offended hearing certain terms (whether it be n*gger, f*ggot, etc.), but shows a certain amount of ignorance as well.

It's not always about being PC and making everyone feel happy. It's also not about people "perpetuating their own sense of less than" because they feel "marginalized" or discriminated against (LOL...this is another absurd point I'll have to address tomorrow). It's simply about realizing that what you say can have an affect on people. And when you use words that have been used to dehumanize and demean certain groups for ages, you better be prepared to deal with certain consequences.

Super Dave
Apr 14th, 2011, 04:33 PM
I understand your opinion. And my point remains that using those words isn't right, and it is immature, but it happens sometimes as a result of the sports culture you grew up in and the words that were thrown around. I never claim to be perfect; just being honest. Have you never used a slur in your life? And when you used it, did it mean you hated that group of people?

You don't have to trust me; you don't know me. But I believe that no one should be persecuted because of their sexual preference or the color of their skin. I believe if a person is straight, bi, gay, or asexual, they were born that way.

And I know words can hurt; I've had plenty of slurs come my way, too. Sadly, that's human, and that's life. Doesn't make it right. And although it can denote hatred, as you said, it doesn't always.

njnetswill
Apr 14th, 2011, 04:50 PM
Thought police? Excuse me, no one is being punished for their thoughts.

Actions should not be judged by their intentions, they should be judged by their consequences. Are you honestly trying to tell me that a man throwing the word "fag" at another man is not meant to injure the other by insinuating that he is an inferior male? If the word "******" wasn't offensive then people wouldn't use it when they are angry and trying to verbally attack someone else. Let's stop pretending that just because the person being described as a "******" isn't gay, that suddenly the word is completely harmless.

And please, don't ever belittle the efforts of people who are working toward the empowerment and protection of marginalized communities. Including putting the word marginalized in quotations. If you don't feel marginalized, that's fine. But don't go prancing around thinking that you can adequately quantify the level of oppression that others face.

ampers&
Apr 14th, 2011, 04:55 PM
I understand your opinion. And my point remains that using those words isn't right, and it is immature, but it happens sometimes as a result of the sports culture you grew up in and the words that were thrown around. I never claim to be perfect; just being honest. Have you never used a slur in your life? And when you used it, did it mean you hated that group of people?

You don't have to trust me; you don't know me. But I believe that no one should be persecuted because of their sexual preference or the color of their skin. I believe if a person is straight, bi, gay, or asexual, they were born that way.

And I know words can hurt; I've had plenty of slurs come my way, too. Sadly, that's human, and that's life. Doesn't make it right. And although it can denote hatred, as you said, it doesn't always. Oh it's good you acknowledge that it can denote hatred now because you certainly didn't in your initial post. In fact you seemed sure it didn't which is what was absurd to me.

And of course I have used slurs. But hatred? No. But I certainly connected those slurs with the negative characteristics of the groups normally associated with those slurs and I meant it as an insult. And I used those slurs knowing and realizing that if I said "fag" or "n*ggers" to certain people, there is the potential it could truly hurt and offend them. I'm not proud of it and I also realize it happens, but unlike you and pov, I don't dismiss it as "PC nonsense" when someone actually feels offended by it. Because it's NOT. It's different to insult someone by calling them ugly or fat or a loser as opposed to using a term associated with hatred and discrimination on entire groups of people. The kind of hatred and discrimination that still impacts them to this day. That's all I'm saying. Don't be so quick to dismiss the reaction to slurs as PC bullshit because it's not. Simple as that.

miffedmax
Apr 14th, 2011, 04:56 PM
You know, there was actually once a time when coarse language was frowned upon simply because it was uncouth, not because it was politically incorrect.

I can (and do) curse with the best of them, but I also think it's gotten to the point where it's just, as much as anything else, boring.

One of Dementieva's banshee wails was, in its primal agony, far more communicative and evocative of her emotions than any string of four-letter words could ever have been (though I understand even in her case their may have been occasions when Mommy Vera might have needed to take a bar of soap to Lena's mouth).

Anyway, regardless of personal feelings, most leagues from kiddie leagues on up have rules against using certain times of language on the court/field/pitch, and if you break those rules you're going to get fined.

I agree that in the heat of a situation, some of us say things we regret, and don't always really mean--we choose certain words because we know they hurt, not because of how we feel about a specific person or group of people. So I wouldn't judge Kobe by this one incident, but by an overall pattern of his behavior.

P.S. There were a couple of times my son appointed himself PC Police on the soccer pitch and you know what? I really didn't have a problem with it.

Super Dave
Apr 14th, 2011, 05:04 PM
Oh it's good you acknowledge that it can denote hatred now because you certainly didn't in your initial post. In fact you seemed sure it didn't which is what was absurd to me.

And of course I have used slurs. But hatred? No. But I certainly connected those slurs with the negative characteristics of the groups normally associated with those slurs and I meant it as an insult. And I used those slurs knowing and realizing that if I said "fag" or "n*ggers" to certain people, there is the potential it could truly hurt and offend them. I'm not proud of it and I also realize it happens, but unlike you and pov, I don't dismiss it as "PC nonsense" when someone actually feels offended by it. Because it's NOT. It's different to insult someone by calling them ugly or fat or a loser as opposed to using a term associated with hatred and discrimination on entire groups of people. The kind of hatred and discrimination that still impacts them to this day. That's all I'm saying. Don't be so quick to dismiss the reaction to slurs as PC bullshit because it's not. :shrug:

Again, I do completely understand your stance on the issue, and it's valid. I don't mean to dismiss the potential for hurt. Perhaps I'm oversimplifying it, as I have been known to do.

In sports, particularly in America (I guess; that's all I know) and DEFINITELY in the NBA, a lot of unpalatable words fly around in the heat of battle. Kevin Garnett this season called Charlie Villanueva a "cancer patient" because Charlie has alopecia and has no body hair at all. Though I wasn't bald in high school or anything, I had a high hairline and someone called me "chemo" on the basketball court once. Sure, it hurt. But I think in this case, I bet the ref wasn't even hurt by it; he hears it all the time.

But I do understand your opinion and I apologize if it seems I was trivializing it. It was not my intent to dismiss it as "PC bullshit".

ampers&
Apr 14th, 2011, 05:18 PM
Again, I do completely understand your stance on the issue, and it's valid. I don't mean to dismiss the potential for hurt. Perhaps I'm oversimplifying it, as I have been known to do.

In sports, particularly in America (I guess; that's all I know) and DEFINITELY in the NBA, a lot of unpalatable words fly around in the heat of battle. Kevin Garnett this season called Charlie Villanueva a "cancer patient" because Charlie has alopecia and has no body hair at all. Though I wasn't bald in high school or anything, I had a high hairline and someone called me "chemo" on the basketball court once. Sure, it hurt. But I think in this case, I bet the ref wasn't even hurt by it; he hears it all the time.

But I do understand your opinion and I apologize if it seems I was trivializing it.
It's cool. And I'm American and played basketball throughout high school and am very familiar with the NBA, so I know. I am temporarily volunteering in a country where I get slurs thrown out at me on a daily basis out of ignorance and curiosity (and maybe even anger once or twice). And it hurt at first, but not anymore. So yeah, I know that is also a possibility for the ref. But not viewers and fans who heard Kobe yell the slur in anger and felt offended. It's the same for my friends who visit me and hear someone yelling n*gger at me. They get more upset about it than me now. And I understand and appreciate it.

miffedmax
Apr 14th, 2011, 05:19 PM
Oh, for God's sake, stop acting like adults trying to have an intelligent conversation, DR and MM. Start calling each other names and escalate into incoherent hysterics.

Don't either of you know anything about TF ethics and rules of behavior?

njnetswill
Apr 14th, 2011, 05:19 PM
For me, the bottom line is that we should hold worldwide celebrities and people in the media spotlight to different standards. The reality is that their behavior has greater consequences. Meaningful change at the common everyday person's level can be facilitated by strong, clear stances at the top levels. This applies to a variety of issues, not just the use of slurs.

miffedmax
Apr 14th, 2011, 05:22 PM
It's cool. And I'm American and played basketball throughout high school and am very familiar with the NBA, so I know. I am temporarily volunteering in a country where I get slurs thrown out at me on a daily basis out of ignorance and curiosity (and maybe even anger once or twice). And it hurt at first, but not anymore. So yeah, I know that is also a possibility for the ref. But not viewers and fans who heard Kobe yell the slur in anger and felt offended. It's the same for my friends who visit me and hear someone yelling n*gger at me. They get more upset about it than me now. And I understand and appreciate it.

They say travel broadens the mind, but in your case it sounds like you are the one broadening the minds of others.

Super Dave
Apr 14th, 2011, 05:26 PM
For me, the bottom line is that we should hold worldwide celebrities and people in the media spotlight to different standards. The reality is that their behavior has greater consequences. Meaningful change at the common everyday person's level can be facilitated by strong, clear stances at the top levels. This applies to a variety of issues, not just the use of slurs.

I don't know; we're all the same - we're all human. And pro athletes have way more pressure on them than we do - tons of money on the line, their legacy, infinite scrutiny - it's almost unfair to hold them to a different standard. I'd probably crack way more often if I was under a microscope.

Still, athletes and celebs do screw up a lot :lol: I think at the root the money makes them crazi(er).

duhcity
Apr 14th, 2011, 05:34 PM
This is a totally different case.
Kobe can shout ****** wherever he wants in public, that's his right. The NBA has a conduct policy, and Kobe has to follow it.

pov
Apr 14th, 2011, 06:39 PM
Thought police? Excuse me, no one is being punished for their thoughts.

Actions should not be judged by their intentions, they should be judged by their consequences. Are you honestly trying to tell me that a man throwing the word "fag" at another man is not meant to injure the other by insinuating that he is an inferior male? If the word "******" wasn't offensive then people wouldn't use it when they are angry and trying to verbally attack someone else. Let's stop pretending that just because the person being described as a "******" isn't gay, that suddenly the word is completely harmless.

And please, don't ever belittle the efforts of people who are working toward the empowerment and protection of marginalized communities. Including putting the word marginalized in quotations. If you don't feel marginalized, that's fine. But don't go prancing around thinking that you can adequately quantify the level of oppression that others face.
Yes, people are being "punished" for their thoughts.

The idea that actions should be judged by their results is strange to me. So if someone pushes you into the river intending to drown you and somehow you survive and find a bar of gold - you'd want the person who tried to kill you to get a reward?

And are you saying that words are actions? Yet a person's re-action is not an action in and of itself?

Words are not harmful or harmless. A person's reactions are their own - generally based on what they have learned to think about the word and the mental associations they've formed with it.

My point isn't that someone angry isn't attempting to say something that the other will take offense. It is that certain groups have decided to expand the angry word and claim that usage of that shows that someone is anti- something or the other. They are attempting to say that "dumb f**gg*t" said in a moment of anger = "I hate homosexual people." They are excluding the context.

And I support those who I see as truly working for people's empowerment. I do not support the effort for those who I see as simply helping people identify with a self-defeating victim status. For me, counseling on how to respect self and not be overly bothered by what people think/say about them is helping people become empowered. Teaching them to take offense about every possible affront, convincing them that they need protection, and guiding them to see themselves as "marginalized" is dis-empowering them.

And . . I do many things but I don't prance. See that's the kind of stupid shite that in the moment of reading it makes me want to grace with you a choice "slur." ;)

pov
Apr 14th, 2011, 06:43 PM
For me, the bottom line is that we should hold worldwide celebrities and people in the media spotlight to different standards. The reality is that their behavior has greater consequences. Meaningful change at the common everyday person's level can be facilitated by strong, clear stances at the top levels. This applies to a variety of issues, not just the use of slurs.
A valid point. I'd agree with people in the media but someone who's a celebrity simply because they are talented at what they do? Not so much in my book. I also don't think that their behavior has greater consequences per se, although more people may be likely to emulate their behavior.

moby
Apr 14th, 2011, 06:48 PM
My point isn't that someone angry isn't attempting to say something that the other will take offense. It is that certain groups have decided to expand the angry word and claim that usage of that shows that someone is anti- something or the other. They are attempting to say that "dumb f**gg*t" said in a moment of anger = "I hate homosexual people." They are excluding the context.
No. They are saying that saying "dumb fagg-ot" = "homosexuals are inferior (men)".
This interpretation is obvious and independent from the context.

The consequences of this interpretation speak for themselves.

pov
Apr 14th, 2011, 06:57 PM
It's cool. And I'm American and played basketball throughout high school and am very familiar with the NBA, so I know. I am temporarily volunteering in a country where I get slurs thrown out at me on a daily basis out of ignorance and curiosity (and maybe even anger once or twice). And it hurt at first, but not anymore. So yeah, I know that is also a possibility for the ref. But not viewers and fans who heard Kobe yell the slur in anger and felt offended. It's the same for my friends who visit me and hear someone yelling n*gger at me. They get more upset about it than me now. And I understand and appreciate it.

I've had similar experiences with people actually getting pissed at because I didn't have the reaction they consider appropriate.

I maintain that a foundational part of self-empowerment is not giving power to things others say or think about you.

I also maintain that a person's reactions are their own responsibility. When someone gets angry at a slight and attacks someone else many people do in hold the attacker responsible for his/her actions. Yet when someone gets upset at a slight and "attacks themselves" many of us seem to take a different view of the situation.

pov
Apr 14th, 2011, 07:02 PM
No. They are saying that saying "dumb fagg-ot" = "homosexuals are inferior (men)".
This interpretation is obvious and independent from the context.

The consequences of this interpretation speak for themselves.
This is another example of my point. You hold the opinion that the interpretation is obvious. It isn't. If you choose to think that, that's on you. Let's be clear, of course the phrase can be used to convey that interpretation. However it isn't regularly used outside that meaning. And to say that anything is independent of context suggest a very black and white view of human interactions. A view that doesn't see the many shades of gray.

pov
Apr 14th, 2011, 07:05 PM
I'm liking this thread. :yeah: Clearly there are different and strongly held viewpoints but my take is that so far we're all discussing the issues rather than attacking each other. Thanks to all who've participated.

moby
Apr 14th, 2011, 09:22 PM
This is another example of my point. You hold the opinion that the interpretation is obvious. It isn't. If you choose to think that, that's on you. Let's be clear, of course the phrase can be used to convey that interpretation. However it isn't regularly used outside that meaning. And to say that anything is independent of context suggest a very black and white view of human interactions. A view that doesn't see the many shades of gray.If that interpretation does not exist, can you pray tell me how "dumb fagg-ot" is meant as an insult then?

CRNAGcP-gOA

égalité
Apr 14th, 2011, 11:45 PM
Kobe Bryant is the latest in a long line of people who have been told in firm terms that the thought police doesn't accept their choice of words. The idea that certain words are a - "bad" and b - always an indication that the user is anti something or the other are delusions that have a strong footing. It's as if the thought police and its supporters ignore that words in anger are meant to cause a reaction. A reaction that is the choice of the hearer not the one saying the word. I have used words that are considered slurs - across the board. I've run the table on it. And I'm okay with that. I've also had all sort of slurs thrown at me. And I'm okay with that too. Because really the only times those slurs have bothered me are the times in which I wasn't feeling good about myself in the first place.

People who consider themselves "marginalized" or discriminated against and continue to make themselves feel bad about what others think/say about them are perpetuating their own sense of less than. The outcomes of this PC nonsense are that people continue to make themselves beholding to others and that there will be no way to let out a moment of anger. Not letting people verbally blow of steam simply means that they internalize that moment of anger and are more likely to really build a feeling of anti- something or the other.

You've made comments like this before, and I still don't understand why you think it's OK for Kobe to use the word "f*ggot," but it's not OK for people to express their anger towards him for it. No one's policing his thoughts. They're reacting to them. Nobody's saying Kobe's not allowed to say "f*ggot." He's allowed, and everyone else is allowed to say, "I'm offended by that." My reaction to Kobe's charming word choice is that the context doesn't matter. When I'm angry at someone, in the heat of the moment, I don't spontaneously call the person the n-word. It's a lame-ass excuse.

Really, though, sad fucking world when people can't say "I'm offended" without you calling them "thought police." http://www.anchoredbygrace.com/smileys/icon_shake.gif

Sp!ffy
Apr 15th, 2011, 02:09 AM
It speaks to the unique ecosystem of professional sports, which has remained largely resistant to the rising American acceptance of homosexuality, say others.

“Professional sports seems to be the last bastion of homophobia in this country; Kobe Bryant’s antigay slur is just the tip of the iceberg,” says Robert Volk, a professor at Boston University’s School of Law with expertise in area of the law and sexual minorities. “A number of professional athletes that came out after they left their sport commented on the impossibility of coming out while a professional athlete, given the extremely homophobic atmosphere, and Bryant’s fine is not enough to change the atmosphere.”

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Sports/2011/0414/Kobe-Bryant-slur-A-window-into-last-bastion-of-homophobia

That being said, I'm glad such a big deal is being made out of this incident.

meyerpl
Apr 15th, 2011, 03:05 AM
Kobe Bryant is the latest in a long line of people who have been told in firm terms that the thought police doesn't accept their choice of words. The idea that certain words are a - "bad" and b - always an indication that the user is anti something or the other are delusions that have a strong footing. It's as if the thought police and its supporters ignore that words in anger are meant to cause a reaction. A reaction that is the choice of the hearer not the one saying the word. I have used words that are considered slurs - across the board. I've run the table on it. And I'm okay with that. I've also had all sort of slurs thrown at me. And I'm okay with that too. Because really the only times those slurs have bothered me are the times in which I wasn't feeling good about myself in the first place.

People who consider themselves "marginalized" or discriminated against and continue to make themselves feel bad about what others think/say about them are perpetuating their own sense of less than. The outcomes of this PC nonsense are that people continue to make themselves beholding to others and that there will be no way to let out a moment of anger. Not letting people verbally blow of steam simply means that they internalize that moment of anger and are more likely to really build a feeling of anti- something or the other.
What some people disdainfully call "political correctness" I've always thought of as simply good manners and consideration for other people's feelings. And if I've failed to be respectful and considerate, I'm not "okay with that." I've been known to "blow off steam" on occasion, but I don't have any difficulty doing so without stooping to "slurs" that target race, ethnicity or sexual orientation. I believe that the things that come out of a person's mouth in a state of drunkeness or anger reveal a great deal about what's really in that person's heart.

meyerpl
Apr 15th, 2011, 03:09 AM
You've made comments like this before, and I still don't understand why you think it's OK for Kobe to use the word "f*ggot," but it's not OK for people to express their anger towards him for it. No one's policing his thoughts. They're reacting to them. Nobody's saying Kobe's not allowed to say "f*ggot." He's allowed, and everyone else is allowed to say, "I'm offended by that." My reaction to Kobe's charming word choice is that the context doesn't matter. When I'm angry at someone, in the heat of the moment, I don't spontaneously call the person the n-word. It's a lame-ass excuse.

Really, though, sad fucking world when people can't say "I'm offended" without you calling them "thought police." http://www.anchoredbygrace.com/smileys/icon_shake.gifI couldn't agree with you more.

allhailwilliams
Apr 15th, 2011, 03:53 PM
I agree. The way I am, I need to get anger out in short bursts. I cannot keep it inside; I would spontaneously combust.

And I don't think Kobe should be crucified for what he did. Just because he used those words doesn't mean he hates certain groups of people. Right or wrong, men sometimes use that language in the heat of the moment and there is no deep meaning to it - it's an impulse reaction. It's playground trash talk. Hell, I've mouthed (i.e. under my breath) those words at my son's opposing Little League coach when he cheats. It may not be pretty but as pov said, it does not mean there is a hatred toward any group involved.

That may not be a nice answer, and it may not make total sense, but it's real at least.

What a stupid twit you are. I bet you don't play nice or fair with others. Why would he use that exact phrase? , could it be a lack of intelligence? , maybe. Why not say, damn stupid ref, you need glasses or whatever. People hate gay people, that's a fact, rapist, straight basketball players more than anyone.

Apoleb
Apr 15th, 2011, 04:13 PM
Oh, pov in another thread speaking in favor of homophobia. I'm so shocked, I don't know how to react. :rolleyes:

It really takes a total twit to think that someone calling another a "******" in a moment of anger or not isn't gay-hating. And this has nothing to do with "PC". Regardless of whether some are offended or not, it is gay-hating.

allhailwilliams
Apr 15th, 2011, 04:17 PM
I agree. The way I am, I need to get anger out in short bursts. I cannot keep it inside; I would spontaneously combust.

And I don't think Kobe should be crucified for what he did. Just because he used those words doesn't mean he hates certain groups of people. Right or wrong, men sometimes use that language in the heat of the moment and there is no deep meaning to it - it's an impulse reaction. It's playground trash talk. Hell, I've mouthed (i.e. under my breath) those words at my son's opposing Little League coach when he cheats. It may not be pretty but as pov said, it does not mean there is a hatred toward any group involved.

That may not be a nice answer, and it may not make total sense, but it's real at least.

What a stupid twit you are. I bet you don't play nice or fair with others. Why would he use that exact phrase? , could it be a lack of intelligence? , maybe. Why not say, damn stupid ref, you need glasses or whatever. People hate gay people, that's a fact, rapist, straight basketball players more than anyone.

Super Dave
Apr 15th, 2011, 04:19 PM
What a stupid twit you are. I bet you don't play nice or fair with others. Why would he use that exact phrase? , could it be a lack of intelligence? , maybe. Why not say, damn stupid ref, you need glasses or whatever. People hate gay people, that's a fact, rapist, straight basketball players more than anyone.
No, it isn't.

You can bet anything you want, you don't know shit about me. Human beings are way more complex than you think. You can't automatically assume that someone hates a whole group of people for an immature (yes, "immature", read all of my posts in this thread) comment said in a moment of anger.

Apoleb
Apr 15th, 2011, 04:23 PM
No, it isn't.

You can bet anything you want, you don't know shit about me. Human beings are way more complex than you think. You can't automatically assume that someone hates a whole group of people for an immature (yes, "immature", read all of my posts in this thread) comment said in a moment of anger.

Surely if someone says that slur in a moment of anger or not (though I agree the state could be more revealing) has problems with homosexuality at some level. I don't know why that needs a thread even. :lol:

Super Dave
Apr 15th, 2011, 04:24 PM
By the way, my college roommate, who became my best friend, confided to me that he was gay after knowing him for a year. He remained my best friend until he died of leukemia and I defended him to the death, literally. He couldn't even come out to his parents. I didn't even want to mention it because I didn't want to be accused of hyperbole or drama.

So don't anyone fucking tell me I hate gay people just because I have used that term in the past. It's not that black and white.

moby
Apr 15th, 2011, 04:29 PM
By the way, my college roommate, who became my best friend, confided to me that he was gay after knowing him for a year. He remained my best friend until he died of leukemia and I defended him to the death, literally. He couldn't even come out to his parents. I didn't even want to mention it because I didn't want to be accused of hyperbole or drama.

So don't anyone fucking tell me I hate gay people just because I have used that term in the past. It's not that black and white.Having problems with homosexuality at some level is not the same as hating gay people. It's not that black and white.

One of my closest friends is black, yet I would never claim to be not racist at all. Because homophobia and racism are precisely about generalisations and stereotypes, and these only work on categories of people, not actual individuals you know. Once you know someone personally, then the effect of generalisation wears off.

Super Dave
Apr 15th, 2011, 04:33 PM
Having problems with homosexuality at some level is not the same as hating gay people. It's not that black and white.

One of my closest friends is black, yet I would never claim to be not racist at all.

If that's your opinion, fine. I do not believe I have any problems with gay people. I don't know what else to say. Maybe a psychiatrist could prove me wrong (how could you prove that, anyway).

allhailwilliams
Apr 15th, 2011, 04:36 PM
By the way, my college roommate, who became my best friend, confided to me that he was gay after knowing him for a year. He remained my best friend until he died of leukemia and I defended him to the death, literally. He couldn't even come out to his parents. I didn't even want to mention it because I didn't want to be accused of hyperbole or drama.

So don't anyone fucking tell me I hate gay people just because I have used that term in the past. It's not that black and white.

Not the old don't call me a ----. Cause my best friend is gay line again. Go fool some other Guy with that crap. Not me, I've lived long enough to not be taken advantage of by the likes of you hiding him or herself behind a computer. I guess you're next statement will be " my best buddy now is black, we met rock climbing, or swimming, or figure skating ", yeah right.

moby
Apr 15th, 2011, 04:36 PM
If that's your opinion, fine. I do not believe I have any problems with gay people. I don't know what else to say. Maybe a psychiatrist could prove me wrong (how could you prove that, anyway).There's nothing much to say. If that's what you feel, fine.

But just think about this: if "damn fagg-ot" is such a generic and impulsive response, would you ever use it on a woman?

Then think about your answer to that question.

The other point is: whether you actually believe what you're saying or not, you're perpetuating an unhealthy meme.

Super Dave
Apr 15th, 2011, 04:39 PM
Not the old don't call me a ----. Cause my best friend is gay line again. Go fool some other Guy with that crap. Not me, I've lived long enough to not be taken advantage of by the likes of you hiding him or herself behind a computer.

Go to hell. Join a forum and call someone a liar and a twit and then say I'm the one with the problem. Fuck you.

By the way, your profile says you're 86. You're the liar.

Come to Dearborn, Michigan, and I'll show you his headstone.

allhailwilliams
Apr 15th, 2011, 04:56 PM
Go to hell. Join a forum and call someone a liar and a twit and then say I'm the one with the problem. Fuck you.

By the way, your profile says you're 86. You're the liar.

Come to Dearborn, Michigan, and I'll show you his headstone.

I think I just proven my case against you by you're last response. When people cannot lie and get their point across, then comes the daggers. A real person with any character would say..sorry I don't agree and move on. I don't think I called you any names. Other than twit, which that's the tone you set. I see why you're defense of Kobe is so intense. Go find a hobby to help your prejudices.

Super Dave
Apr 15th, 2011, 04:59 PM
I think I just proven my case against you by you're last response. When people cannot lie and get their point across, then comes the daggers. A real person with any character would say..sorry I don't agree and move on. I don't think I called you any names. I see why you're defense of Kobe is so intense. Go find a hobby to help your prejudices.

Your first words were "what a stupid twit you are". And you called me a liar, when I'm not lying. What do you expect? You are the one with the problem.

Super Dave
Apr 15th, 2011, 05:06 PM
And congratulations. After 25,000 posts on 2 boards, you are the first person I've ever even typed profanity at. I'm the nicest guy in the world until you call me a liar.

allhailwilliams
Apr 15th, 2011, 05:07 PM
Your first words were "what a stupid twit you are". And you called me a liar, when I'm not lying. What do you expect? You are the one with the problem.

Let's agree to disagree and move on. Clearly there is plenty room in this world for all kinds of bigots. Even you're kind. I will not respond to you anymore.

Super Dave
Apr 15th, 2011, 05:09 PM
Let's agree to disagree and move on. Clearly there is plenty room in this world for all kinds of bigots. Even you're kind. I will not respond to you anymore.

Sounds good.

bulava
Apr 15th, 2011, 06:46 PM
I think we shouldn't be surprised about what Kobe has said. Don't get me wrong, I mean these things have become part & parcel of people and their lifestyles (most, NOT all). Remember Serena's "shoving the ball into the throat" incident? Anyway, I've seen a lot in the US, EU, Russia but Asia is fast catching up with this crap (people just love to ape from the West, no flame or offense intended). I must say, big thanks to Globalization :)

miffedmax
Apr 15th, 2011, 08:30 PM
I thought this response by former NBA player John Amaechi was very eloquent and worth reading.

http://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/04/15/a-gay-former-player-responds-to-kobe-bryant/