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pov
Feb 23rd, 2011, 04:34 PM
. . .then how come "pushing" is winning so often? Hit lots of winners and lose the match :haha:

The players that are likely to beat Wozniacki have defensive abilities as developed as their aggressive game.

cellophane
Feb 23rd, 2011, 04:35 PM
Well, Nadia is woeful off the ground these days :shrug:

TennisFan66
Feb 23rd, 2011, 04:37 PM
. . .then how come "pushing" is winning so often? Hit lots of winners and lose the match :haha:

The players that are likely to beat Wozniacki have defensive abilities as developed as their aggressive game.

Because thats how you play tennis on the Xbox and thats how a lot of posters here have their tennis 'knowledge' from.

FORZA SARITA
Feb 23rd, 2011, 04:37 PM
brain def brainless :shrug:
luckily there are players who have brain and can hit winners :lol:

Jane Lane
Feb 23rd, 2011, 04:39 PM
Just because you're capable of hitting winners, doesn't mean you'll win. You have to have half a brain like Sucketta said and know what kind of winner to go for. You don't always have to hit the lines, you have to place your shots.

You're seriously basing this arguement off Nadia; one of the most inconsistent players in the history of forever?

Mr.Sharapova
Feb 23rd, 2011, 04:48 PM
As soon as Caro faces a consistent big hitter she is done :shrug:.

RenaSlam.
Feb 23rd, 2011, 04:57 PM
Let's see what happens when she faces someone like Kvitova on the hardcourts of Miami or Indian Wells. :)

pov
Feb 23rd, 2011, 05:05 PM
I'll repeat: The players that are likely to beat Wozniacki have defensive abilities as developed as their aggressive game.

S.Williams, who may have the most aggressive game on tour, can retrieve like nobody's business. Clijsters, who can also bring the heat, may be even better at retrieving.


Yeah Wozniacki's game isn't as entertaining to watch but hey . . .

Patrick345
Feb 23rd, 2011, 05:08 PM
Who was the last pusher to win a Grand Slam?

But I would not mind having 10 million dollars in my bank account, so it can´t be that wrong.

pov
Feb 23rd, 2011, 05:12 PM
Who was the last pusher to win a Grand Slam?

Nadal did sort of okay. Hingis maybe. Yeah, if Wozniacki is a pusher, Hingis is a pusher.

FYI I think the term "pusher" is inane.

tkutsaar
Feb 23rd, 2011, 05:26 PM
I have been puzzled by this attitude amongst the posters here as well. Last time I looked an UE counts the same as a winner i.e. One Point. To win a match by having less UEs than your opponent is a legitimate way to win a tennis match. Remember when Wozniacki beat Schiavone at ’11 AO? As it was pointed out to Caro that Fran had hit many more winners and she was asked wasn’t she alarmed and to that Caro retorted who won the match?

MB.
Feb 23rd, 2011, 05:36 PM
"If I don't have a weapon, what do the others have?" -- Caroline Wozniacki

cellophane
Feb 23rd, 2011, 05:37 PM
Nadal did sort of okay. Hingis maybe. Yeah, if Wozniacki is a pusher, Hingis is a pusher.

FYI I think the term "pusher" is inane.

Hingis a pusher ? :help:

MakarovaFan
Feb 23rd, 2011, 05:42 PM
Sure pushing can win matches but any time a pusher comes up against
a confident and aggressive big hitter they are literally at the mercy of that
player.....generally it isn't such a smart plan to base you game
On how your opponent is playing,most players and athlete's
Prefer to have the ability to step up and take things into their
own hands and not have another person hold your fate in their hands.
So again sure pushing can win,and when your opponent cant keep two balls in
a row into the court,it looks down right smart,but at the end of the day true
Champiosnhips prefer to have things in their own hands

slamchamp
Feb 23rd, 2011, 05:42 PM
Nadal a pusher???:spit:

Ballbasher
Feb 23rd, 2011, 05:46 PM
It's probably more consistent and better for deep runs consistently, but tennis fans want to be entertained. I appreciate Caro's game, but I would prefer a Dokic/Lucic match even if they hit 80 UEs each. :shrug: And I know Caro's a better player than they are!

Burisleif
Feb 23rd, 2011, 05:48 PM
As soon as Caro faces a consistent big hitter she is done :shrug:.

You mean Like Maria? :D

Let's see what happens when she faces someone like Kvitova on the hardcourts of Miami or Indian Wells. :)

Last time they met on HC Caro one convincingly 6-3 6-2... Go figure. :)

Irute
Feb 23rd, 2011, 05:53 PM
The terms pusher and unforced error are misleading. Successful "pushers" are not just pushing ball back anywhere (at least not most of the time) and therefore most of errors are not unforced; they are as good as winners to which opponent can't get. Try to feed the ball to a "ballbasher" in the middle and leave them entire field open then you will see how many unforced errors she will make. As long as someone plays a game which suits them it is fine with me. I don't think anyone can play just one dimensional game, the balance lies at various points for different players.

pov
Feb 23rd, 2011, 06:05 PM
The terms pusher and unforced error are misleading. Successful "pushers" are not just pushing ball back anywhere (at least not most of the time) and therefore most of errors are not unforced; they are as good as winners to which opponent can't get. Try to feed the ball to a "ballbasher" in the middle and leave them entire field open then you will see how many unforced errors she will make. As long as someone plays a game which suits them it is fine with me. I don't think anyone can play just one dimensional game, the balance lies at various points for different players.
:yeah:

L'Enfant Sauvage
Feb 23rd, 2011, 06:08 PM
I have been puzzled by this attitude amongst the posters here as well. Last time I looked an UE counts the same as a winner i.e. One Point. To win a match by having less UEs than your opponent is a legitimate way to win a tennis match. Remember when Wozniacki beat Schiavone at ’11 AO? As it was pointed out to Caro that Fran had hit many more winners and she was asked wasn’t she alarmed and to that Caro retorted who won the match?

*sigh* I keep seeing these arguments and it drives me insane because it totally misses the point. No one's saying Caro's style isn't effective. Her rapidly growing resume would beg to differ. And yes, an UE is worth the same as a winner. Fans just don't like it. It's not enjoyable to watch someone scrambling around the court until their opponent dumps a shot into the net. People aren't making fun of her for her bad results, because she's getting great results. It's just her style that's visually unimpressive.

Jorn
Feb 23rd, 2011, 06:09 PM
Vera 4 and Caro 7 winners :)


But it works best against error machines... ;)

Irute
Feb 23rd, 2011, 06:12 PM
*sigh* I keep seeing these arguments and it drives me insane because it totally misses the point. No one's saying Caro's style isn't effective. Her rapidly growing resume would beg to differ. And yes, an UE is worth the same as a winner. Fans just don't like it. It's not enjoyable to watch someone scrambling around the court until their opponent dumps a shot into the net. People aren't making fun of her for her bad results, because she's getting great results. It's just her style that's visually unimpressive.
For some here it is probably true, however it would be better for them to go to a circus or watch WWE to be entertained. They also have those basketball matches where they score baskets from impossible positions, but these people would be very ineffective in a real league.

TennisFan66
Feb 23rd, 2011, 06:18 PM
It's probably more consistent and better for deep runs consistently, but tennis fans want to be entertained. I appreciate Caro's game, but I would prefer a Dokic/Lucic match even if they hit 80 UEs each. :shrug: And I know Caro's a better player than they are!

and I wouldn't :lol: .. I prefer to watch players who can actually play tennis and not just serve like a man and play non-stop high risk strikes. Might as well just go to a casino then and put it all on 17.

Mynarco
Feb 23rd, 2011, 06:23 PM
*sigh* I keep seeing these arguments and it drives me insane because it totally misses the point. No one's saying Caro's style isn't effective. Her rapidly growing resume would beg to differ. And yes, an UE is worth the same as a winner. Fans just don't like it. It's not enjoyable to watch someone scrambling around the court until their opponent dumps a shot into the net. People aren't making fun of her for her bad results, because she's getting great results. It's just her style that's visually unimpressive.

Amen.

miffedmax
Feb 23rd, 2011, 06:24 PM
What it really boils down to for me is the distressing inability of many of today's players to use their playing style--whatever it may be--to actually CONSTRUCT a point.

IMHO, that's why the old ladies continue to dominate at the slams. When push comes to shove, the Renas, Kims, and yeah, the Francesca's of the world know how to construct a goddam point. The Caros, Vikas, Anas and so forth just use whatever physical tools they have over and over and over again.

I like Caro, but I can't tell you how many times my son and I have wanted her to step up and finish a point just to see her put the ball back in play. And with Vika, it's the exact opposite--we wonder why the hell she was going for a winner on a shot that Pete Sampras and Martina Navratilova's genetically engineered superchild with Satan for a godparent couldn't hit back for a winner.

Again, it says something when Aga Radwanska is hailed around here as being a tactical genius. Okay, she's better at tactics than a lot of her peers, but really, that's like being better at tactics than Varus or Weygand.

backhandsmash
Feb 23rd, 2011, 06:31 PM
What it really boils down to for me is the distressing inability of many of today's players to use their playing style--whatever it may be--to actually CONSTRUCT a point.

IMHO, that's why the old ladies continue to dominate at the slams. When push comes to shove, the Renas, Kims, and yeah, the Francesca's of the world know how to construct a goddam point. The Caros, Vikas, Anas and so forth just use whatever physical tools they have over and over and over again.

I like Caro, but I can't tell you how many times my son and I have wanted her to step up and finish a point just to see her put the ball back in play. And with Vika, it's the exact opposite--we wonder why the hell she was going for a winner on a shot that Pete Sampras and Martina Navratilova's genetically engineered superchild with Satan for a godparent couldn't hit back for a winner.

Again, it says something when Aga Radwanska is hailed around here as being a tactical genius. Okay, she's better at tactics than a lot of her peers, but really, that's like being better at tactics than Varus or Gamelin.

:lol::lol:


Sorry, I have nothing else to add.

Bingain
Feb 23rd, 2011, 06:35 PM
You people have no clue how WTA works.

Every time before Caro's match, Piotr will buy a disposable phone and call up Caro's opponent. He will threaten to upload her sex tapes (real or shopped ones) to WikiLeaks, unless they tank like a moron. They will comply.

There is a reason Mario Ancic is retiring from tennis to practice law. The tennis worlds, both of them, have been so corrupted that they can't be tackled from within by beating, pushing, or serving. Do you guys really believe Murray lost by being a headcase? Law and order can only be restored from the outside with insane hourly fees and compensation sharing. Sad news is this is gong to take a long while. Except...

Except, the WTA can and will be saved by a real heroine to stand up against this jerk. She shalt bravely acknowledge to be a slut (with a great body.) Until then, sorry, folks, the WTA is hopeless.

The only good news for non-pushing fans is that the ITF has Francesco Ricci Bitti, who has as many of Piotr's personal sex tapes as Piotr has on the girls. Therefore Piotr is always silent and a non-factor during slams. But rumor has it that Bitti ain't gonna remain at ITF for long. The dark age is imminent. Once again, we need a slut (with a great body.)

Amen.

Mynarco
Feb 23rd, 2011, 06:37 PM
I would prefer a Dokic/Lucic match even if they hit 80 UEs each. :shrug:

After watching Lucic play in USO last year, NO.

Ballbasher
Feb 23rd, 2011, 06:38 PM
and I wouldn't :lol: .. I prefer to watch players who can actually play tennis and not just serve like a man and play non-stop high risk strikes. Might as well just go to a casino then and put it all on 17.
See there's the difference. :p These risks make tennis so enjoyable for me!

MakarovaFan
Feb 23rd, 2011, 06:42 PM
You mean Like Maria? :D



Last time they met on HC Caro one convincingly 6-3 6-2... Go figure. :)
Yep,let's not get cute because Maria still leads their H2H(including a 60 61 spanking)......

Olórin
Feb 23rd, 2011, 06:45 PM
I've watched Caro play live, and yes she retrieves and perhaps is "pushing" compared to her opponent. It's fine to sit there and watch her for a couple of hours, yes she may not have little flair and imagination in her game, but she certainly works the court and makes all the shots (which is a nice change from seeing "loser after loser" as Virginia Wade calls UEs).

That said, effective as it clearly is, I don't think this game translates well to TV. Especially if you have it on in the background, like during the finals or semis of Wimbledon or the Australian Open - we are used to being treated to to players with lots of flair, panache, precision and attacking prowess in these kinds of matches - well for at least a few games in each match.And this is why I think many hardcore fans at least, are turned off. Besides the whole number one thing.

Olórin
Feb 23rd, 2011, 06:46 PM
Might as well just go to a casino then and put it all on 17.

What kind of imbecile are you that can't tell the difference between watching a tennis match and going into a casino and gambling with your own hard earned money? :lol:

madmax
Feb 23rd, 2011, 06:51 PM
You mean Like Maria?

what is your beef with Maria anyway? Isn't she leading the H2H between the two or what now? Or are you so desperate that a win over self-destructing opponent is worth some kind of celebration? Maria is in another league than dane anyway, so any comparisons between her and Wozniacka are moot.

AcesHigh
Feb 23rd, 2011, 06:52 PM
The term "pusher" is for lazy people and idiots.

And whoever demeans Caro and calls her a pusher or tries to discredit her probably has never played competitive tennis.
The point is to win matches..not hit winners.

slamchamp
Feb 23rd, 2011, 06:58 PM
what is your beef with Maria anyway? Isn't she leading the H2H between the two or what now? Or are you so desperate that a win over self-destructing opponent is worth some kind of celebration? Maria is in another league than dane anyway, so any comparisons between her and Wozniacka are moot.exactly

frenchie
Feb 23rd, 2011, 07:00 PM
People don't realise that it's extremely difficult to play against a player that makes very few unforced errors.
Have you ever faced a ball machine yourself??

Wozniacki is very impressive.
Her opponents start to think too much when they see their balls coming back again and again. And they go for too much.

BTW how often does a ballbasher play her A-game??
2-3 weeks a year : ask Rezai, Safarova, Dokic....

mariavikafan
Feb 23rd, 2011, 07:06 PM
Pushers don't win majors so obviously sth is wrong with their game.

TennisFan66
Feb 23rd, 2011, 07:12 PM
what is your beef with Maria anyway? Isn't she leading the H2H between the two or what now? Or are you so desperate that a win over self-destructing opponent is worth some kind of celebration? Maria is in another league than dane anyway, so any comparisons between her and Wozniacka are moot.

We certainly agree this time. I'd say Sharapova is currently about 6 levels below Caro :lol:

Soliloque
Feb 23rd, 2011, 07:16 PM
We certainly agree this time. I'd say Sharapova is currently about 6 levels below Caro :lol:

Yeah but Caro will never be able to reach something close to Maria's peak.

Bismarck.
Feb 23rd, 2011, 07:23 PM
Can we stay away from the inevitable Caro fanbase vs. other fanbases, please? For once let's have a constructive thread and not just endless mudslinging.

ChrisWilliams and Olórin :worship:

mariavikafan
Feb 23rd, 2011, 07:29 PM
We certainly agree this time. I'd say Sharapova is currently about 6 levels below Caro :lol:

You always want to turn every thread into a battle between Maria and Pushniacki but that's not gonna work, come to us the day your precious pusher win a Slam;)

Havok
Feb 23rd, 2011, 07:42 PM
What it really boils down to for me is the distressing inability of many of today's players to use their playing style--whatever it may be--to actually CONSTRUCT a point.

IMHO, that's why the old ladies continue to dominate at the slams. When push comes to shove, the Renas, Kims, and yeah, the Francesca's of the world know how to construct a goddam point. The Caros, Vikas, Anas and so forth just use whatever physical tools they have over and over and over again.

I like Caro, but I can't tell you how many times my son and I have wanted her to step up and finish a point just to see her put the ball back in play. And with Vika, it's the exact opposite--we wonder why the hell she was going for a winner on a shot that Pete Sampras and Martina Navratilova's genetically engineered superchild with Satan for a godparent couldn't hit back for a winner.

Again, it says something when Aga Radwanska is hailed around here as being a tactical genius. Okay, she's better at tactics than a lot of her peers, but really, that's like being better at tactics than Varus or Weygand.

Bingo! Wozniacki has the perfect gamestyle to actually construct points and finish lots of them off with winners, even though they will likely lack the power of, say, a Serena winner. All these up and coming girls just seem to hit the crap out of the ball and have no idea on where to hit the ball in order to get a weak reply and finish off the point. Their train of thought is smack the shit out of the ball anywhere on the courts and either hope it lands in for a winner or get a weak reply which can be punished. Heck most don't even know how to put away a short reply and get all nervous about it.:o

¤CharlDa¤
Feb 23rd, 2011, 07:58 PM
We've got four interesting examples today with Vera over Cibulkova, Caro over Nadia, Jelena over Mirza and Pennetta over Safarova.

I think what's important is to remember that if you don't like Caro because her game is 'boring' to you on TV (which I can understand up to a point), it doesn't mean she doesn't deserve her ranking, or to win a Grand Slam. You just don't like watching her play.

I never liked watching Justine play, and never liked her personnality either, but I wouldn't go in every single thread to bitch about her and say she didn't deserve what she got. Cause if she got it, its cause she deserved it.

Matt01
Feb 23rd, 2011, 08:02 PM
*sigh* I keep seeing these arguments and it drives me insane because it totally misses the point. No one's saying Caro's style isn't effective. Her rapidly growing resume would beg to differ. And yes, an UE is worth the same as a winner. Fans just don't like it. It's not enjoyable to watch someone scrambling around the court until their opponent dumps a shot into the net. People aren't making fun of her for her bad results, because she's getting great results. It's just her style that's visually unimpressive.


*sigh* There are some fans who prefer longer rallies, some fans prefer players who hit the winner as soon as possible. You cannot objectively that one of these styles of play is "visually unimpressive". It's a question of personal taste.

Nicolás89
Feb 23rd, 2011, 08:05 PM
Because thats how you play tennis on the Xbox and thats how a lot of posters here have their tennis 'knowledge' from.

Exactly.

Shvedbarilescu
Feb 23rd, 2011, 08:12 PM
Reading through this thread is actually quite uplifting. For the most part common sense prevails and, quite unusually these days in a thread like this, the good posts seem to be out numbering the shall we say not so good posts by around a 2 to 1 margin. Wow. Could it be TennisForum is starting to turn a corner in terms of their attitudes towards Wozniacki?

Like a lot of posters Wozniacki isn't one of the players I most enjoy watching. I don't hate her and I have certainly seen matches of hers that had me quite entertained but she is never going to be a big favourite with me. My taste will always be for the slightly more unorthodox player who plays more of a finess game and shows more skills at the net. MJMS is my kinda gal. But we all like different things and look for different styles and that's cool.

Thing is whether Wozniacki is exactly to one's taste or not, and as she isn't really to my taste I can totally relate to others who feel the same, she is a great player who commands respect. The way Wozniacki plays is not easy and does require tremendous ability. Wozniacki regularly beats players who are fully capable of winning matches by blowing players off the court. Contrary to popular tennis forum opinion she doesn't do this by simply "pushing" the ball back until they makes errors, she does this by hitting each and every groundstroke with a consistency and purpose that makes it very tough for her opponents to blast winners past her.

When you are playing a player of the quality of a Kleybanova, or a Petrova, or a Kuznetsova, or some many of the other tour players Wozniacki regularly beats you can't afford to hit one weak shot or the next one will be blasted past you for a winner. Wozniacki's skill is that she has consistency and court awareness to not only retrieve a great many difficult shots but to get them back in a way that will allow her to stay in the rally and prevent her opponent from being able to hit an easy winner of her. She does this better than anyone in the game and this simply has to be respected by anyone who understands tennis. Players make errors off her because they are unable to create the openings that will allow them to finish points off with winners without taking huge risks that lead to low percentage play. Hence, her opponents will end up well ahead in the winner count but the risks they are forced to take in order to make those winners will result in a disproportionate amount of errors which normally end up their undoing.

I don't by any means by intend to suggest she is in any way unbeatable. Far from it. But you got to play a damn good match to do it. You simply can not beat Wozniacki without playing great tennis. To beat her you simply have to be able to be able to find a way to hit winners without making masses of errors. And against someone who never gives you the easy winner this is bloody difficult. Na Li did it at the Australian Open, Kim Clijsters did it at YEC. Kvitova very effectively at Wimbledon. Zvonareva, Bartoli and Stosur also have recent wins against her.

Thing is they all had to play at a very high level to beat her. When Wozniacki is on, and as she is now just about as consistent as anyone in the game that is 90% of the time, you have to play at very high level to beat her. Probably the only two poor matches Wozniacki has played since Wimbledon were against Bartoli in Cincinati and her 1st match of the year against Cibulkova at Sydney. Two bad matches in 8 months, hell, speaking personally, that is something as a tennis fan I have got to respect.

I don't think we as tennis fans need to all rally round and start loving Wozniacki. Of course we don't. There are plenty of posters in this forum who genuinely do not like her and never will, but also understand and appreciate her ability and why she is successful. And that is totally cool. I do however think it is time we showed a little more understanding for her skill and simply gave her the respect her achievements warrant. These desparate attempts to disparage her every victory and success do nothing except make the posters who do so look very foolish. I also believe in order to find ways to disparage Wozniacki many posters have felt it necessary to simply disparage the whole WTA tour. The argument being, well if Wozniacki is beating everyone then everyone must be crap. I think that's a pretty pathetic argument myself.

Is Wozniacki as good as Serena Williams? Justine Henin? Kim Clijsters? Venus? I don't think so. I don't think many posters here do. But if we start using those four as a benchmark for who in the game deserves respect then that actually rather means we preclude virtually the entire tour of being deserving of respect.

Personally I think all those players who diligently slog away on the ITF circuit without any of the luxury's those in the top 30 are accustomed to, fighting week after week to be the best they can be, even if that simply mean trying to raise their game up to the level that will get them into the main draw of Grand Slams deserve huge admiration and respect. Sadly this is not always forthcoming from a lot of the posters in this forum. But to me these girls are the heart and soul of the WTA tour. But if these girls deserve our respect, and I totally think they do, then surely a player of the ability of Wozniacki does too.

bandabou
Feb 23rd, 2011, 08:16 PM
a win against Nadia is the pinacle and epitah to convince everybody to become pushers? :lol: :spit:
The thing with Caro's this: This is her game, there's no more to it and that's why she hasn't won a major yet, heck hasn't even been to a F in more than a year now.

Consistently good, but doesn't have the weapons to beat the truly elite yet when people when they're playing well. She's just what the WTA has for Andy Murray.

bandabou
Feb 23rd, 2011, 08:20 PM
Caro's success is just showing that players aren't great strategist or thinkers anymore on the court. EVERYbody should've seen by now: There's no sane reason to not keep pounding that forehand of Caroline. You don't go to her backhand, you go to the forehand..because you WILL get a short ball eventually.

And when you get the weak reply...keep her off balance, hit behind her sometimes, then to the open corner..it's really easy.

Shvedbarilescu
Feb 23rd, 2011, 08:38 PM
a win against Nadia is the pinacle and epitah to convince everybody to become pushers? :lol: :spit:
The thing with Caro's this: This is her game, there's no more to it and that's why she hasn't won a major yet, heck hasn't even been to a F in more than a year now.

Consistently good, but doesn't have the weapons to beat the truly elite yet when people when they're playing well. She's just what the WTA has for Andy Murray.

We get it. She is not as good as the great Serena Williams. We know this. But thanks again for reminding us. :yawn:

Clearly for you players of the level of Andy Murray and Caroline Wozniacki are mediocrities in the shadow of the true elites of which Serena Williams is head and shoulders above the rest. Fine. If you want to channel all your respect to one single individual go ahead, but I'm inclined to believe as great as Serena Williams is there are other players, many other players, who are also deserving of my admiration.

Bingain
Feb 23rd, 2011, 09:34 PM
And when you get the weak reply...keep her off balance, hit behind her sometimes, then to the open corner..it's really easy.

It's actually true that it's freaking easy to beat Caro. Hit thunderous strokes to her sides--how fast can she run? Wrong-foot the hell outta her. She'll lose balance and fall and cry after a couple strokes. Attack her FH, then go for an easy DTL. Serve aces, then serve wide kickers and go for 1-2 punch. Hit 50 winners and don't hit more than 48 UEs (ie to maintain positive ratio.) Caro will fold in no time.

Why the heck aren't they doing this easy tactic all the time is beyond me.

sammy01
Feb 23rd, 2011, 09:34 PM
i just wanna see players that are capable of this kind of tennis -

krUzMVKMl6M

or this

QpNqx4CJ1gA

or this

VVElJ3_3Dso

or this

c3JOFmmaz8I

no these players didn't always play classic matches, but they had the capabilities of playing amazing tennis like this. not only that but could/can pull it out in slam semi/finals.

you just wont get quality tennis like this from caro, vera, vika or aga, they just aren't able to produce it, let alone deep in a slam.

ptitnavet
Feb 23rd, 2011, 09:38 PM
Nadal did sort of okay. Hingis maybe. Yeah, if Wozniacki is a pusher, Hingis is a pusher.

FYI I think the term "pusher" is inane.

How dare you? :mad:

ivanban
Feb 23rd, 2011, 09:38 PM
Because thats how you play tennis on the Xbox and thats how a lot of posters here have their tennis 'knowledge' from.

This. :o

"If I don't have a weapon, what do the others have?" -- Caroline Wozniacki

:spit: True

Shvedbarilescu
Feb 23rd, 2011, 09:40 PM
i just wanna see players that are capable of this kind of tennis -
no these players didn't always play classic matches, but they had the capabilities of playing amazing tennis like this. not only that but could/can pull it out in slam semi/finals.

you just wont get quality tennis like this from caro, vera, vika or aga, they just aren't able to produce it, let alone deep in a slam.

Well you still have youtube. Enjoy it. :)

sammy01
Feb 23rd, 2011, 09:49 PM
Well you still have youtube. Enjoy it. :)

i do, i watch more youtube tennis these days than live matches. sad really as i am the type of viewer the wta cant affrd to lose, i am one of the crazies.

Shvedbarilescu
Feb 23rd, 2011, 09:55 PM
i do, i watch more youtube tennis these days than live matches. sad really as i am the type of viewer the wta cant affrd to lose, i am one of the crazies.

I agree. It is sad really. But do tell me, what is it about you that makes you the type of viewer the wta cant afford to lose. If there a premium on individuals who get off on feeling superior to the people that actually play this game?

Matt01
Feb 23rd, 2011, 10:01 PM
i do, i watch more youtube tennis these days than live matches. sad really as i am the type of viewer the wta cant affrd to lose, i am one of the crazies.


:lol: Sammy, you know I love you, but you're trolling around quite a lot these days, aren't you :p

égalité
Feb 23rd, 2011, 10:03 PM
Nadal did sort of okay. Hingis maybe. Yeah, if Wozniacki is a pusher, Hingis is a pusher.

FYI I think the term "pusher" is inane.

DEATTTHHHHHH :spit: :haha: :hysteric:

debby
Feb 23rd, 2011, 10:05 PM
@Sammy :

Henin and Mauresmo were playing a rare kind of game.... I don't think we are going to see loads of mini Henin and mini Mauresmo later :awww: Navratilova said so, the younger tennis pupils would have to work much harder to have Henin's or Mauresmo's kind of tennis....

Sammo
Feb 23rd, 2011, 10:07 PM
As someone said brain def. brainless. But when you have a poweful game and you have brain, you steamroll pushers, no matter how much brain they have.

pav
Feb 23rd, 2011, 10:08 PM
Good ol days good ol days, hit a winner or be a sinner, Cappy and Rena hit winners from their f*ckin chairs during the breaks, didn't have these boring bloody pushers when I was a kid, I just don't know anything anymore, either gunna go kill myself or whack myself :sad:

debby
Feb 23rd, 2011, 10:09 PM
As someone said brain def. brainless. But when you have a poweful game and you have brain, you steamroll pushers, no matter how much brain they have.

Who is Ivana Lusjak ?

sammy01
Feb 23rd, 2011, 10:10 PM
I agree. It is sad really. But do tell me, what is it about you that makes you the type of viewer the wta cant afford to lose. If there a premium on individuals who get off on feeling superior to the people that actually play this game?

i mean that i am one of the tennis fans that did watch each turnament week in week out. i am the kind of viewer that keeps eurosport signing up wta tournaments. the slams will always be well supported (as casual fans will always watch them) but the wta lives in a world of the cut throat entertainment business, where its niche market it needs to hold onto.

i have watched a set here and there from doha this week via livestream, i haven't even bothered t flick on british eurosport downstairs to sit and watch matches as they just aren't worth it.

you may think i am only one person and what does it matter, but i talk to a lot of TF posters from here outside of the forum, they are also the crazies and they are also nt as intrested and reducing the amount they watch and follow to.

i'll give yo an example me, dawnteader and reetard stayed up ne night and put on the semi? final of tokyo, caro vs vika, we jst gave up after a set and went to bed as it was just plain bad. this happens all too often these days.

maybe the wta is thriving, but the fact that it is leaching off any atp tornament it can, not standing alne pleasing its own niche market more now than ever says to me it isn't.

sammy01
Feb 23rd, 2011, 10:14 PM
:lol: Sammy, you know I love you, but you're trolling around quite a lot these days, aren't you :p

i am just fucked off with womens tennis, you may see it as trolling but i am just venting. the sport i have followed to the point of my friends take the piss out of me for it is fast losing my intrest. old habits die hard and you can say dn't come on here and post then, but i have been psting on here and checking it daily for 4 years.

¤CharlDa¤
Feb 23rd, 2011, 10:15 PM
Personally I think all those players who diligently slog away on the ITF circuit without any of the luxury's those in the top 30 are accustomed to, fighting week after week to be the best they can be, even if that simply mean trying to raise their game up to the level that will get them into the main draw of Grand Slams deserve huge admiration and respect. Sadly this is not always forthcoming from a lot of the posters in this forum. But to me these girls are the heart and soul of the WTA tour. But if these girls deserve our respect, and I totally think they do, then surely a player of the ability of Wozniacki does too.

:hearts: :worship: People tend to forget we are talking about girls who have been working their asses off for years trying to get where they are now. We are literally on our asses criticizing them. I wonder who wins, huh?

And I can't believe you said you don't consider yourself a good writer. The entire post was spot on. :)

new-york
Feb 23rd, 2011, 10:15 PM
because spectacular tennis cannot be expected.

¤CharlDa¤
Feb 23rd, 2011, 10:18 PM
i mean that i am one of the tennis fans that did watch each turnament week in week out. i am the kind of viewer that keeps eurosport signing up wta tournaments. the slams will always be well supported (as casual fans will always watch them) but the wta lives in a world of the cut throat entertainment business, where its niche market it needs to hold onto.

i have watched a set here and there from doha this week via livestream, i haven't even bothered t flick on british eurosport downstairs to sit and watch matches as they just aren't worth it.

you may think i am only one person and what does it matter, but i talk to a lot of TF posters from here outside of the forum, they are also the crazies and they are also nt as intrested and reducing the amount they watch and follow to.

i'll give yo an example me, dawnteader and reetard stayed up ne night and put on the semi? final of tokyo, caro vs vika, we jst gave up after a set and went to bed as it was just plain bad. this happens all too often these days.

maybe the wta is thriving, but the fact that it is leaching off any atp tornament it can, not standing alne pleasing its own niche market more now than ever says to me it isn't.

Maybe you are just getting older? More various interests? Getting over something you maybe were too intense about?

I know I was a tennis freak, and still am, but in a totally different manner. I don't feel bad for results of my fave anymore. And I won't wake up in the middle of the night to watch matches. But it's MY vision of tennis that changed, not the sport itself.

sammy01
Feb 23rd, 2011, 10:21 PM
Maybe you are just getting older? More various interests? Getting over something you maybe were too intense about?

I know I was a tennis freak, and still am, but in a totally different manner. I don't feel bad for results of my fave anymore. And I won't wake up in the middle of the night to watch matches. But it's MY vision of tennis that changed, not the sport itself.

maybe so :sad:

Matt01
Feb 23rd, 2011, 10:25 PM
i am just fucked off with womens tennis, you may see it as trolling but i am just venting. the sport i have followed to the point of my friends take the piss out of me for it is fast losing my intrest. old habits die hard and you can say dn't come on here and post then, but i have been psting on here and checking it daily for 4 years.


Well, I understand how you feel, to a certain degree.

But OTOH, as tennis fans we should think positive and we also should not make the (IMO very common) mistake of glorifying the past. I remember the months after Seles got stabbed when I was always reading how boring tennis was because of Graf's domination and how predictable the results were. I remember 2003/2004 when each of the "Big Four" were out with injury for a long time (the WS a bit earlier than the Belgians). Women's tennis (or any other sport) is not always high quality but when you look closely, there should be still lots of things in today's tennis that you be able to enjoy as a tennis fan. :wavey:

young_gunner913
Feb 23rd, 2011, 10:26 PM
POV get off the crack.

Volcana
Feb 23rd, 2011, 10:58 PM
. . .then how come "pushing" is winning so often? Hit lots of winners and lose the match
The players that are likely to beat Wozniacki have defensive abilities as developed as their aggressive game.I'm not sure how that sentence was supposed to come out, but it reads like you think Wozniacki HAS an aggressive game.

As for 'pushing' being better than 'ball-bashing', defense, in most sports, beats offense. That's not news.

Why has this so-called 'pushing', failed at the slams so badly? Having seen a pusher in a slam final since the 2009 US.

KBlade
Feb 23rd, 2011, 10:59 PM
Let's see what happens when she faces someone like Kvitova on the hardcourts of Miami or Indian Wells. :)

It doesn't even require a player of Kvitova's caliber. Anyone who can be blatantly over powered and hit off a slow hard court by a 5'2 player like Cibulkova needs help.

And to answer the question, Yes, hitting winners is better than pushing, because when it comes down to the crunch, if you want to win a slam, you have to go out there and WIN it, not wait for your opponent to lose it,

zhengjieforever
Feb 23rd, 2011, 11:18 PM
It doesn't even require a player of Kvitova's caliber. Anyone who can be blatantly over powered and hit off a slow hard court by a 5'2 player like Cibulkova needs help.

And to answer the question, Yes, hitting winners is better than pushing, because when it comes down to the crunch, if you want to win a slam, you have to go out there and WIN it, not wait for your opponent to lose it,

5'3" :crying2:

PMBH
Feb 24th, 2011, 12:24 AM
i mean that i am one of the tennis fans that did watch each turnament week in week out. i am the kind of viewer that keeps eurosport signing up wta tournaments. the slams will always be well supported (as casual fans will always watch them) but the wta lives in a world of the cut throat entertainment business, where its niche market it needs to hold onto.

i have watched a set here and there from doha this week via livestream, i haven't even bothered t flick on british eurosport downstairs to sit and watch matches as they just aren't worth it.

you may think i am only one person and what does it matter, but i talk to a lot of TF posters from here outside of the forum, they are also the crazies and they are also nt as intrested and reducing the amount they watch and follow to.

i'll give yo an example me, dawnteader and reetard stayed up ne night and put on the semi? final of tokyo, caro vs vika, we jst gave up after a set and went to bed as it was just plain bad. this happens all too often these days.

maybe the wta is thriving, but the fact that it is leaching off any atp tornament it can, not standing alne pleasing its own niche market more now than ever says to me it isn't.

I agree with you to some point. But the cause of the problem is neither Caro nor average tour players nor the WTA per se. It's the lack of responsibility shown by top players like Clijsters, Venus and Serena. They skip large parts of the tour even when they're fit, and spend all their energy on preparing for the four slams. It may help them win more of the big titles but it diminishes the tour's reputation and attractiveness. Similar to how Lance Armstrong used to only focus on riding the Tour de France for three weeks every summer but wasn't seen anywehere for the rest of the year. Great for him but bad for cycling.

AkademiQ
Feb 24th, 2011, 01:04 AM
We get it. She is not as good as the great Serena Williams. We know this. But thanks again for reminding us. :yawn:

Clearly for you players of the level of Andy Murray and Caroline Wozniacki are mediocrities in the shadow of the true elites of which Serena Williams is head and shoulders above the rest. Fine. If you want to channel all your respect to one single individual go ahead, but I'm inclined to believe as great as Serena Williams is there are other players, many other players, who are also deserving of my admiration.



who is stopping you? people like you act like because you don't have a top player in your sig or you support an unknown you've passed some imaginary test for the true tennis fan. admire who you want and keep it moving


:yawn:

spencercarlos
Feb 24th, 2011, 01:11 AM
Nadal did sort of okay. Hingis maybe. Yeah, if Wozniacki is a pusher, Hingis is a pusher.

FYI I think the term "pusher" is inane.
Don´t dare to put Hingis up there with Caroline :lol:

Hingis was a talented player capable of doing anything on the court, yeah even smack the ball. Hingis is the kind of player that plays power tennis against pushers like Wozniacki, Coetzer.... , and so on..

The pushers of the 90ties like Conchita and Arantxa would just toy with Wozniacki, they were capable of doing much more with the ball than Caro IMO.

Anyway it is that it is, Wozniacki is the most consistent player from the lot today, plays more events and is rightfully ranked number one. Another thing is that today you have about 3 players that are way better tennis players than Wozniacki is ATM.

And to answer your question, its just that the level is so poor nowadays, that Wozniacki is good enough to win most of her matches despite doing nothing espectacular out there. Simple as that.. That is not Caro´s fault really.

bandabou
Feb 24th, 2011, 04:25 AM
We get it. She is not as good as the great Serena Williams. We know this. But thanks again for reminding us. :yawn:

Clearly for you players of the level of Andy Murray and Caroline Wozniacki are mediocrities in the shadow of the true elites of which Serena Williams is head and shoulders above the rest. Fine. If you want to channel all your respect to one single individual go ahead, but I'm inclined to believe as great as Serena Williams is there are other players, many other players, who are also deserving of my admiration.

:lol: Actually Murray IS worthy of respect..he does have 3 finals, including back to back appearances at the Oz open, to his credit. Just has come up short against opponents in uber-form.

Pops Maellard
Feb 24th, 2011, 04:57 AM
I can't believe people are still talking about this shit. :lol:

If you don't like Caro being #1 in the WTA, then don't watch.

tkutsaar
Feb 24th, 2011, 05:51 AM
*sigh* I keep seeing these arguments and it drives me insane because it totally misses the point. No one's saying Caro's style isn't effective. Her rapidly growing resume would beg to differ. And yes, an UE is worth the same as a winner. Fans just don't like it. It's not enjoyable to watch someone scrambling around the court until their opponent dumps a shot into the net. People aren't making fun of her for her bad results, because she's getting great results. It's just her style that's visually unimpressive.

Let’s visualize a rally between Player “S” and Player “W”. Near the end of the point Player “S” smashes a shot down the line looks like an outright winner, but Player “W” gets there and returns it. On the third stroke Player “S” smashes cross-cut for what looks like another sure wire winner but Player “W” gets there as well and returns it. On the fifth stroke Player “S” again smashes a sure fire winner but once again Player “W” gets there and returns it. Now on the seventh stroke two scenarios end the point:

Scenario A- Player “S” finally smashes a winner Player “W” cannot return;

Scenario B- Player “S” in trying for the winner hits it out; a mere centimeters out.

I suggest these conclusions. In either scenario the player winning the point definitely deserved the point. The point is probably as exciting as women’s tennis gets. Player “W” has been the more exciting player to watch.

BTW my example was a point in the Sharapova vs Wozniacki USO ’10 QF (I believe). Scenario A was the actual result as replay showed that the shot hit (stroke 7 in my example) just caught the line

¤CharlDa¤
Feb 24th, 2011, 08:25 AM
:lol: Actually Murray IS worthy of respect..he does have 3 finals, including back to back appearances at the Oz open, to his credit. Just has come up short against opponents in uber-form.

Murray comes short against in-form opponents, but Caro doesn't? I think we have clearly concluded from this thread that you have to be quite in-form and on your game to beat Caro. She, also, just came short from a Us Open title, a final in AO and a YEC....

Vikapower
Feb 24th, 2011, 08:44 AM
Another pathetic comparision between Caro Woz and Andy Murray... :o

¤CharlDa¤
Feb 24th, 2011, 08:51 AM
Why are people here so scared of 'comparisons'?

Comparisons include the word COMPARE, which means look at similiarities and differences between people or things.

As anyone here mentionned that Caro and Murray are exactly the same player? Or Caro and Hingis? Or Caro and Nadal?

Is it so hard to accept that they have similarities in the way they win matches? Does that make them EXACTLY the same player automatically?

Like, really. Bring the thought-process up another notch.

Mr.Sharapova
Feb 24th, 2011, 08:55 AM
You mean Like Maria? :D



Last time they met on HC Caro one convincingly 6-3 6-2... Go figure. :)

Well I guess you're not a follower of Tennis :shrug:. Cause if you were you would know that Maria is far from her consistent self :)

Mr.Sharapova
Feb 24th, 2011, 08:56 AM
We certainly agree this time. I'd say Sharapova is currently about 6 levels below Caro :lol:

I didn't know that Caro's pushing abilities are so high :eek:

Mr.Sharapova
Feb 24th, 2011, 08:58 AM
because spectacular tennis cannot be expected.

And This :rolleyes:

Celest
Feb 24th, 2011, 09:51 AM
Why are people here so scared of 'comparisons'?


As Wozniacki drags everyone down with her.

Wozniacki trolls haven't realised yet that she has quite a lot of 'haters' from people who are fans of some very defensive players.

bandabou
Feb 24th, 2011, 10:13 AM
Murray comes short against in-form opponents, but Caro doesn't? I think we have clearly concluded from this thread that you have to be quite in-form and on your game to beat Caro. She, also, just came short from a Us Open title, a final in AO and a YEC....

Murray most of the time loses to Djokovic, Nadal or Federer..established players.

Caro loses to Kvitova ( whom she otherwise owns), Vera ( whom she beat just a month prior at Montreal, right?) and Li. Not exactly mega elite players imo, no?!

Vikapower
Feb 24th, 2011, 10:30 AM
Why are people here so scared of 'comparisons'?

Comparisons include the word COMPARE, which means look at similiarities and differences between people or things.

As anyone here mentionned that Caro and Murray are exactly the same player? Or Caro and Hingis? Or Caro and Nadal?

Is it so hard to accept that they have similarities in the way they win matches? Does that make them EXACTLY the same player automatically?

Like, really. Bring the thought-process up another notch.

It's not the first time that Caro Woz is compared to Andy Murray and it's really tiring at the end to compare players who have absolutely NOTHING in common other than speed... Andy Murray is a genius...

And as mentionned, Murray only losses to the best players of all time by the names of Raf and Fed - then after Djokovic... nothing shamefull to come up short to such caliber players.

¤CharlDa¤
Feb 24th, 2011, 11:44 AM
Murray most of the time loses to Djokovic, Nadal or Federer..established players.

Caro loses to Kvitova ( whom she otherwise owns), Vera ( whom she beat just a month prior at Montreal, right?) and Li. Not exactly mega elite players imo, no?!

Kvitova won two tournaments this year including one against the best player actually on tour, Vera has reached two singles GS finals and one semi-final in her last three GS and Li was unbeaten for the year at that point and challenged for a GS title. Really, I don't see anything wrong with those losses. And, well, they are the elite of the tour right now :confused:

The main difference between Murray and Caro are that they are both in different eras of their respective tours. ATP has rarely been that good with Roger and Nadal, while WTA might be in a low. That still doesn't mean that a comparison can be made, and it's in no way offensive for either :shrug:

MakarovaFan
Feb 24th, 2011, 11:54 AM
People don't realise that it's extremely difficult to play against a player that makes very few unforced errors.
Have you ever faced a ball machine yourself??

Wozniacki is very impressive.
Her opponents start to think too much when they see their balls coming back again and again. And they go for too much.

BTW how often does a ballbasher play her A-game??
2-3 weeks a year : ask Rezai, Safarova, Dokic....
Okay and how many pushers/walls make it to the top??? Lets not be hypocrites here people because the same thing can be said in reverse. Just because we have ONE glorified pusher is at the top of the game doesn't mean that pushers rule ballbashers. And in reality check the statistically but who has a better chance to have more success/reach the top of the game.....pushers or ballbashers. I can gaurantee you 9/10 "brainless ballbashers" will have a better career than a pusher!

MakarovaFan
Feb 24th, 2011, 12:06 PM
]Kvitova won two tournaments this year including one against the best player actually on tour[/B], Vera has reached two singles GS finals and one semi-final in her last three GS and Li was unbeaten for the year at that point and challenged for a GS title. Really, I don't see anything wrong with those losses. And, well, they are the elite of the tour right now :confused:

The main difference between Murray and Caro are that they are both in different eras of their respective tours. ATP has rarely been that good with Roger and Nadal, while WTA might be in a low. That still doesn't mean that a comparison can be made, and it's in no way offensive for either :shrug:
But Caro didnt lose to her this year:confused:. Kvitova beat her last summer when Kvitova was a mid level ranked player coming in with an avergae year, and even after her big breakthrough, and had an even worse finish to last year. So that loss still stands as bad.

bandabou
Feb 24th, 2011, 12:20 PM
Kvitova won two tournaments this year including one against the best player actually on tour, Vera has reached two singles GS finals and one semi-final in her last three GS and Li was unbeaten for the year at that point and challenged for a GS title. Really, I don't see anything wrong with those losses. And, well, they are the elite of the tour right now :confused:

The main difference between Murray and Caro are that they are both in different eras of their respective tours. ATP has rarely been that good with Roger and Nadal, while WTA might be in a low. That still doesn't mean that a comparison can be made, and it's in no way offensive for either :shrug:

How many GS's do you see there combined or even career titles there? Not many..see Kvitova and Li both beat Kimmy this year, but when it was money season; Kim ruled the roost.

Caro's the other way around..when it's money season she crumbles and against players who aren't even that much of a big match players.

angliru
Feb 24th, 2011, 12:21 PM
The criticism is ridiculous. Wozniacki does what she has to do to win matches, and wins more often than anyone else at the moment (Clijsters probably being the only exception). Caroline had a 25-1 winning streak in a span of two months in August to October 2011. This streak included three so-called Tier I's (according to the "old" WTA terminology), and a Grand slam, plus more (including four finals - all won by Caro!). Caroline defeated fourteen top 20 players during this streak (beating Zvonareva twice, among others. Zvonareva was the only player Wozniacki lost to during this streak, btw). Caro must be doing something right!

Winners and unforced errors usually go hand in hand. An increase in winners means more unforced errors. This is obvious. In order to hit a winner you must hit harder, with more angle, closer to the lines etc. This means a more risky game, hence also more unforced errors. We all know that Wozniacki doesn't make a lot of unforced errors - often 10 to 15 per match. But I'm sure she could increase her amount of winners significantly if she wanted to. I'm sure she could hit 25-30 winners per match on average if she wanted to. However, her amount of UE's would also increase from the usual 15 to maybe 30 or 40 or even 50. And she wouldn't have a winning game any more.

Another thing is that Wozniacki hits very clever shots. She hits lots of service winners, for instance, especially during the last year or so; shots which aren't aces or winners, but which the opponent can't do much about (usually returning it into the net or out). These shots are not listed at the winners stats, but they count on the scoreboard! The same goes for forced errors (i.e. errors she's forcing her opponent to make).

Yet another factor to consider is that Wozniacki's opponents rarely wants to rally with her. They often "go flat out" on all shots trying to "kill it" on the first opportunity - or rather before a real opportunity arises! They always hits a lot of errors and sometimes also many winners. But such a game takes away any chances for Caro to build up to a winner. For instance, if Caro hits so-so serves, and the opponent consistently returns it in the net or hits a return winner in an attempt to kill it right away, then there's not many chances for Wozniacki to hit a winner. Caroline has played so many matches where the opponents were barely able to hit the ball over the net two times in a rally. Wozniacki always gets a lot of criticism here after such matches. She didn't do anything, says the "experts". She only waited for her opponents to make the errors. What could she possibly do, I ask?

Finally, there's an implicit paradox in this entire discussion about winners and Caro's game. The hater's statements goes like this:

A)
Wozniacki doesn't hit any winners.
She doesn't put her opponents under any kind of pressure.
She doesn't build or construct the points.
She only keeps the ball in play - usually returning it at the T.
She waits for her opponent to make mistakes.

B)
The opponents hits lots of winners, and put Wozniacki under all kinds of pressure.
They construct nice points.
But they also make too many errors.

Here's the paradox(es): How come Caro, being put under such heavy pressure, is able to return so many balls, while her opponents, who only have to stand at the T with no pressure at all, are making all the errors? And, the big question, why exactly does this make Wozniacki a worse player?

Maybe she's doing something right after all, and maybe she's not that easy to play against! And maybe she's putting her opponents under a lot more pressure than anyone is willing to acknowledge and admit. Which brings me to the conclusion of this lengthy post with a quote from Sofia Arvidsson's blog (http://answermyquestionjerk.se/sofia/) today:

I really like Caroline Wozniacki's reply to a journalist on the question if it's unfair that she's a world no. 1 without any weapons:
- No weapons, what do the other ones have then...?

Young 8
Feb 24th, 2011, 12:31 PM
. . .then how come "pushing" is winning so often? .

Like Federer or Sampras ??

bandabou
Feb 24th, 2011, 01:05 PM
The criticism is ridiculous. Wozniacki does what she has to do to win matches, and wins more often than anyone else at the moment (Clijsters probably being the only exception). Caroline had a 25-1 winning streak in a span of two months in August to October 2011. This streak included three so-called Tier I's (according to the "old" WTA terminology), and a Grand slam, plus more (including four finals - all won by Caro!). Caroline defeated fourteen top 20 players during this streak (beating Zvonareva twice, among others. Zvonareva was the only player Wozniacki lost to during this streak, btw). Caro must be doing something right!

Winners and unforced errors usually go hand in hand. An increase in winners means more unforced errors. This is obvious. In order to hit a winner you must hit harder, with more angle, closer to the lines etc. This means a more risky game, hence also more unforced errors. We all know that Wozniacki doesn't make a lot of unforced errors - often 10 to 15 per match. But I'm sure she could increase her amount of winners significantly if she wanted to. I'm sure she could hit 25-30 winners per match on average if she wanted to. However, her amount of UE's would also increase from the usual 15 to maybe 30 or 40 or even 50. And she wouldn't have a winning game any more.

Another thing is that Wozniacki hits very clever shots. She hits lots of service winners, for instance, especially during the last year or so; shots which aren't aces or winners, but which the opponent can't do much about (usually returning it into the net or out). These shots are not listed at the winners stats, but they count on the scoreboard! The same goes for forced errors (i.e. errors she's forcing her opponent to make).

Yet another factor to consider is that Wozniacki's opponents rarely wants to rally with her. They often "go flat out" on all shots trying to "kill it" on the first opportunity - or rather before a real opportunity arises! They always hits a lot of errors and sometimes also many winners. But such a game takes away any chances for Caro to build up to a winner. For instance, if Caro hits so-so serves, and the opponent consistently returns it in the net or hits a return winner in an attempt to kill it right away, then there's not many chances for Wozniacki to hit a winner. Caroline has played so many matches where the opponents were barely able to hit the ball over the net two times in a rally. Wozniacki always gets a lot of criticism here after such matches. She didn't do anything, says the "experts". She only waited for her opponents to make the errors. What could she possibly do, I ask?

Finally, there's an implicit paradox in this entire discussion about winners and Caro's game. The hater's statements goes like this:

A)
Wozniacki doesn't hit any winners.
She doesn't put her opponents under any kind of pressure.
She doesn't build or construct the points.
She only keeps the ball in play - usually returning it at the T.
She waits for her opponent to make mistakes.

B)
The opponents hits lots of winners, and put Wozniacki under all kinds of pressure.
They construct nice points.
But they also make too many errors.

Here's the paradox(es): How come Caro, being put under such heavy pressure, is able to return so many balls, while her opponents, who only have to stand at the T with no pressure at all, are making all the errors? And, the big question, why exactly does this make Wozniacki a worse player?

Maybe she's doing something right after all, and maybe she's not that easy to play against! And maybe she's putting her opponents under a lot more pressure than anyone is willing to acknowledge and admit. Which brings me to the conclusion of this lengthy post with a quote from Sofia Arvidsson's blog (http://answermyquestionjerk.se/sofia/) today:

Of course it's a working game..a bit a la Murray as has already been stated. Not a fair comparison to Murray, but still.
But..the playing-style is obviously proving not to be good enough for winning the BIG BIG tournaments either. No coincidence that Caro's losses ( apart from Sydney) in the last months have come at: U.S. open, YEC and Oz open.

kman
Feb 24th, 2011, 01:18 PM
Yeah but Caro will never be able to reach something close to Maria's peak.

Said the same about Clijsters when she was on one slam and Sharapova was on 3. Clijsters comes back from retirement and BOOM she has 4 and Pova still has only 3. Caroline is only 20... who knows what the future holds.

mariavikafan
Feb 24th, 2011, 01:20 PM
Said the same about Clijsters when she was on one slam and Sharapova was on 3. Clijsters comes back from retirement and BOOM she has 4 and Pova still has only 3. Caroline is only 20... who knows what the future holds.

Why do you have Maria in your sig:confused:

kman
Feb 24th, 2011, 01:24 PM
Why do you have Maria in your sig:confused:

So because I state a mere fact (Sharapova having 3 slams, 1 less than Clijsters), you're confused as to why I could possibly have Sharapova in my sig? But yea, I'm a bigger Wozniacki fan, in case you were wondering.

mariavikafan
Feb 24th, 2011, 01:35 PM
So because I state a mere fact (Sharapova having 3 slams, 1 less than Clijsters), you're confused as to why I could possibly have Sharapova in my sig? But yea, I'm a bigger Wozniacki fan, in case you were wondering.

Just asking.

Mr.Sharapova
Feb 24th, 2011, 01:45 PM
Its sad to admit but still Caro has to win a slam in her career sooner or latter :shrug:.

It will come a time on WTA where all the stars and the great player will be out and will not be playing anymore. Sadly thats the time for action for Caroline :sad:

Mynarco
Feb 24th, 2011, 01:51 PM
Its sad to admit but still Caro has to win a slam in her career sooner or latter :shrug:.

It will come a time on WTA where all the stars and the great player will be out and will not be playing anymore. Sadly thats the time for action for Caroline :sad:

It will be just like Beyonce winning Grammy.

mariavikafan
Feb 24th, 2011, 02:08 PM
It will be just like Beyonce winning Grammy.

What? Be careful:lol:

Mynarco
Feb 24th, 2011, 02:08 PM
What? Be careful:lol:

No better options

Dodoboy.
Feb 24th, 2011, 02:32 PM
Chrono = Dumbass

Vikapower
Feb 24th, 2011, 02:33 PM
:lol: Seriously I just can't understand why people are still persistently trying to tuck in Caro Woz and Andy Murray in a same phrase... and tennis discussion...

Murray is said to be a "pusher" in comparision to Fed, Djokovic, Raf and Del po who all play very aggressive tennis and by fans who wants to decrebilize him... but his game isn't that at all.. end of discussion...

Murray's game works very well against anybody than the elites of his era... and again this is arguable because his main issue is his mental strength... and his counter-punching or game in rhythme changes would be working perfectly against for example Federer in majors just like when it works in non major events if he only had a better mental game... compare her to Roddick or Ferrer or any other siblings.

Furthermore Caro Woz still hasn't persistently beaten the elite players of the era : Serena, Venus, Clijsters against whom she has only negative H2Hs... Murray him has done that regularly. Enough said.

debby
Feb 24th, 2011, 02:38 PM
Just asking.

No, I know you too well :lol: you are thinking "how on earth can someone support Sharapova and Pushiacki at once ? They are not in the same league at all" . Am I right? ;) I know I am. :p

:lol: Seriously I just can't understand why people are still persistently trying to tuck in Caro Woz and Andy Murray in a same phrase... and tennis discussion...

Murray is said to be a "pusher" in comparision to Fed, Djokovic, Raf and Del po who all play very aggressive tennis and by fans who wants to decrebilize him... but his game isn't that at all.. end of discussion...

Murray's game works very well against anybody than the elites of his era... and again this is arguable because his main issue is his mental strength... and his counter-punching or game in rhythme changes would be working perfectly against for example Federer in majors just like when it works in non major events if he only had a better mental game... compare her to Roddick or Ferrer or any other siblings.

Furthermore Caro Woz still hasn't persistently beaten the elite players of the era : Serena, Venus, Clijsters against whom she has only negative H2Hs... Murray him has done that regularly. Enough said.

Tu vois quand tu veux ! :lol:
It is rare but we both agree about that. :yeah: Muzza :cheer:

Mixal
Feb 24th, 2011, 02:39 PM
It's over, guys. Woz hit 20 winners in just one set :sad:

vixter
Feb 24th, 2011, 02:41 PM
Isn't it about time to stop calling Wozniacki a pusher? She is improving her attacking game all the time...

L'Enfant Sauvage
Feb 24th, 2011, 02:41 PM
No better options

http://www.gifsoup.com/imager.php?id=36138&t=o (http://www.gifsoup.com/view/36138/beyonce-says-you-talk-too-much.html)

It's over, guys. Woz hit 20 winners in just one set :sad:

Well she's a ballbasher now :drool:

Mr.Sharapova
Feb 24th, 2011, 02:43 PM
Isn't it about time to stop calling Wozniacki a pusher? She is improving her attacking game all the time...

Yeah right:lol:

Bismarck.
Feb 24th, 2011, 02:48 PM
She's not a pusher any more. :lol:

mariavikafan
Feb 24th, 2011, 02:48 PM
No, I know you too well :lol: you are thinking "how on earth can someone support Sharapova and Pushiacki at once ? They are not in the same league at all" . Am I right? ;) I know I am. :p

:lol: well, they are both blondes :lol:

Vikapower
Feb 24th, 2011, 02:53 PM
It's over, guys. Woz hit 20 winners in just one set :sad:

The stats of Doha are false. ;)

Mixal
Feb 24th, 2011, 02:55 PM
The stats of Doha are false. ;)

Honey, I'm watching the match :lol:

SVK
Feb 24th, 2011, 02:55 PM
No they aren´t I counted it and was posting after every single game the winners stats in OOP thread, we were almost the same I have just one winner less in both Wozniacki - Pennetta (18-20) and the official were 19-21 and I missed the last 4 points of first set because the stream didn´t work:)

Curcubeu
Feb 24th, 2011, 03:01 PM
Stunning Caro! :eek:

debby
Feb 24th, 2011, 03:02 PM
:lol: well, they are both blondes :lol:

Is that enough? :lol: Your hate of Wozniacki is too funny, tbh :lol:

Vikapower
Feb 24th, 2011, 03:03 PM
No they aren´t I counted it and was posting after every single game the winners stats in OOP thread, we were almost the same I have just one winner less in both Wozniacki - Pennetta (18-20) and the official were 19-21 and I missed the last 4 points of first set because the stream didn´t work:)

Ok.