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View Full Version : When will Caroline Wozniacki learn that pushing will not make the cut?


BepaMaria
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:29 AM
Despite worldwide condemnation on her playing style, Caroline Pushniacki still insists on pushing in matches. In her AO semifinal against Li Na, she was 2 times a break up in the 2nd set and was in winning position but pushed. Eventually, Li won 3-6,7-5,6-3. Her pushing was evident in the 3rd set whereby she had 0 winners. So now the question here is: will Pushniacki ever learn that such a style of play will not win her majors? And if she does wake up, when will it be? Will it be too late?

RenaSlam.
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:29 AM
Wonder what her press conference will be like. This one is going to sting no matter what front she puts up.

Vee Williams
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:30 AM
She had a number of opportunities to put a ball away with her forehand, but hit a high ball instead. These kind of decisions will hurt her in the future as well. Relying on other people's mistakes should not be a strategy.

J.Bravo
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:32 AM
I'm not even a big fan of hers but that was tough.
I just don't understand it.
Even Murray goes for his shots when need be.

pancake
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:33 AM
I don't know, I actually think she's improving, but against players like Li Na she will always look like a pusher because of how aggressive these players are. Of course there's still a lot of room for her to improve, though, it's just not really her nature to go for winners, I guess.

RenaSlam.
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:34 AM
She won't.

Sp!ffy
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:34 AM
The bridesmaid in your avatar should learn also.

Raiden
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:36 AM
Caro did (accidentally?) ripped one forehand crosscourt in th first or second set that blasted past Na. But like I said it looked almost accidental, so I'm not convinced that right now Caro can hit such hard yet accurate shots at will even if she wants to.

BepaMaria
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:36 AM
I don't know, I actually think she's improving, but against players like Li Na she will always look like a pusher because of how aggressive these players are. Of course there's still a lot of room for her to improve, though, it's just not really her nature to go for winners, I guess.

Yes you have a point on Li's aggressive style, but 0 winners in a set is really too extreme and no way anyone is gonna win a match playing like that.

goldenlox
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:37 AM
Caro might feel bad she lost with a match point, but this match was all Caro until she was broken at 54, otherwise its a routine 63 64 win.

rockstar
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:37 AM
she had matchpoint, so she's not far

Vee Williams
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:38 AM
The bridesmaid in your avatar should learn also.

I think Vera does a better job with shorter balls and hits bigger when in good position. Caro, on the other hand, is patiently staying back the whole time and just puts the ball back in court.

BepaMaria
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:39 AM
The bridesmaid in your avatar should learn also.

At least she doesn't hit 0 winners in a set. She attacks when needed.

Timariot
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:39 AM
Caro actually didn't push much in the first two sets. She was taking the ball earlier than usual and hit it away from Li, also she hit some nice counter-punch winners. But she reverted back to her usual game, which is to hit deep but conservative. It works against many players, but doesn't work against Li, since her shots have such penetration. In fact against Na Li you may want to hit short balls, as she is prone to over-hit them. Li is a bad matchup for Caro...

azinna
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:40 AM
I think deep down she knows this already.
It's just hard to play against your instinctive style in tight points and matches.

Melange
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:40 AM
When Piotr says so

pancake
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:41 AM
Caro might feel bad she lost with a match point, but this match was all Caro until she was broken at 54, otherwise its a routine 63 64 win.

I don't like her haters spreading the same shit over and over again, BUT we get it, you like her, you think she's great. Next.

Melange
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:42 AM
Caro might feel bad she lost with a match point, but this match was all Caro until she was broken at 54, otherwise its a routine 63 64 win.

Yes she had it won

Melange
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:43 AM
I don't like her haters spreading the same shit over and over again, BUT we get it, you like her, you think she's great. Next.

People cant accept she's number one. Next

pancake
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:43 AM
Yes you have a point on Li's aggressive style, but 0 winners in a set is really too extreme and no way anyone is gonna win a match playing like that.

That I simple can't understand, she has a decent serve, she's strong, sure she can go for more if needs be, I don't know why she's holding herself back a bit, I mean in her early rounds she sure can try to be much more aggressive to find out how it feels like.

Mary Cherry.
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:45 AM
Doesn't she typically have a poor start to the year? If this was her poor start, I'm 99% certain she can win the US Open.

hablo
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:45 AM
I think deep down she knows this already.
It's just hard to play against your instinctive style in tight points and matches.

Ditto.

pancake
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:45 AM
People cant accept she's number one. Next

And? So S/he can change people's opinion by repeating how great s/he thinks s/he is? Don't think so.
Haters gonna hate, forget it.

Vee Williams
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:45 AM
Caro might feel bad she lost with a match point, but this match was all Caro until she was broken at 54, otherwise its a routine 63 64 win.

Nice post. Now go back and time and write: the match was all Vika until Serena made mash potatoes with her. You should know better: in tennis, it's not over until it's over. So no, was not a routine win for Caro.

freeandlonely
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:46 AM
She was more aggressive 3 years ago. Now?:confused:

goldenlox
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:47 AM
Doesn't she typically have a poor start to the year? If this was her poor start, I'm 99% certain she can win the US Open.This was her best AO so far, but she's only 20.
When you have match point on your serve for a slam final, thats a big point, big service game. She was very close to it.

Moveyourfeet
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:49 AM
Her stroke production on her forehand is not conducive to hitting through the ball. It is very loopy and her contact point is everywhere so the faster her racquet head speed, the less cleanly she hits the shot so she ends up hitting more errors.

She has compensated by settling on a slower racquet head speed, but more height over the net to achieve depth. She needs to work on that forehand because it is not cutting it against the very top players.

young_gunner913
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:49 AM
Yes she had it won

Apparently not.

kman
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:49 AM
Nice post. Now go back and time and write: the match was all Vika until Serena made mash potatoes with her. You should know better: in tennis, it's not over until it's over. So no, was not a routine win for Caro.

He said "otherwise". Reading comprehension for the win.

Smitten
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:50 AM
Doesn't she typically have a poor start to the year? If this was her poor start, I'm 99% certain she can win the US Open.

Wozniacki is not winning any slam this year.

NA-GOAT
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:50 AM
actually in WTA today, pushing is enough to win GS :help: Caro will win one soon ... maybe later this year

moby
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:51 AM
I think deep down she knows this already.
It's just hard to play against your instinctive style in tight points and matches.The funny thing is, she is so defensive about her defensive game.

You have players like Hingis who used to admit she lacked power and wanted to work on that. Or Henin was she was coming up, acknowledging that she lacks aggression on important points. Or Schiavone now. These are all players who are naturally more "defensive-minded".

The difference being, IMO, that all these players had weapons and courtcraft they can use, or force themselves to execute even when under pressure. Wozniacki literally has none. She tries so hard to rationalise that.

Bonfire
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:52 AM
If I never hear the word "push" again...it will be too soon :help:

hablo
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:52 AM
The funny thing is, she is so defensive about her defensive game.

You have players like Hingis who used to admit she lacked power and wanted to work on that. Or Henin was she was coming up, acknowledging that she lacks aggression on important points. Or Schiavone now. These are all players who are naturally more "defensive-minded".

The difference being, IMO, that all these players had weapons and courtcraft they can use, or force themselves to execute even when under pressure. Wozniacki literally has none. She tries so hard to rationalise that.

On the other hand, she can't admit to such a weakness while being #1! :shrug:

SelesFan70
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:53 AM
As long as the rankings reward her, why change?

tennisbum79
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:55 AM
Had La Lionessa Francesca been 100% , she could have beaten Caro.

hablo
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:56 AM
Had La Lionessa Francesca been 100% yesterday, she could have beaten Caro.

No doubt about it.

Smitten
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:58 AM
The funny thing is, she is so defensive about her defensive game.

You have players like Hingis who used to admit she lacked power and wanted to work on that. Or Henin was she was coming up, acknowledging that she lacks aggression on important points. Or Schiavone now. These are all players who are naturally more "defensive-minded".

The difference being, IMO, that all these players had weapons and courtcraft they can use, or force themselves to execute even when under pressure. Wozniacki literally has none. She tries so hard to rationalise that.

Yes Hingis had a few key plays to hit winners. Namely deuce court play of: slice serve, short & early FHDTL, volley winner.

Had La Lionessa Francesca been 100% yesterday, she could have beaten Caro.

Wozniacki is 3-0 against Schiavone on outdoor hard. All slow to neutral surfaces. The right player won.

scoobz
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:59 AM
Even the most defensive, pushing-minded player has to be able to finish points with a winner now and then, especially big points where if you don't step up and take it, your opponent will.

10 winners in a 2.5 hours match and a whole set with absolutely none - it just won't get it done against really good players. You need to be prepared to be the boss *sometimes* even if this goes against natural instinct.

No player is all one thing or another - pusher, counterpuncher, aggressive baseliner, whatever - you have a natural style but you need to be able to do more than just play that natural style.

Caro is the most defensive minded top player I have ever seen, and in her case it's just too much of that for her to beat the top aggressive players because they will just take it out of her hands.

WTA rankings reward consistency and that's why she's got to #1. Consistency is her trademark. But consistency alone does not win you majors. You need to be able to do a little bit more.

Pops Maellard
Jan 27th, 2011, 05:00 AM
Her technique won't allow her to do much else. :shrug: She needed to be taught her strokes properly, not just by her Dad who has no tennis background.

Her forehand is never going to be a good shot. Her backhand is a solid shot and she still won't go for it in clutch moments. Her serve is OK but nothing special, and probably isn't going to get much better. I won't even comment about her net game.

I think her game has mostly fully matured and in order to win a slam she's gonna have to get VERY lucky. So far she's found that running into an in-form player over 7 grand slam matches is almost a certainty.

sorceress
Jan 27th, 2011, 05:01 AM
She pulled her head in about half way through the last set and was trying to hit winners so the promise is there.
Thing is she's in the middle of up and comers and she'll have to lift her game, Na has had the talent to get this far for a long time but she's never got it together.

tennisbum79
Jan 27th, 2011, 05:01 AM
As long as the rankings reward her, why change?
I don't think she enjoys the position she is in.

She could go the way of Safina and Lady Jaja.

Being #1 w/o having won a GS makes one's press conference unpleasant.

All palyers who have been this position, have to spend so much time answering the same nagging question that te pressure builds and builds as time goes on, to such a point that the palyers feel relieved when someone else takes over the top ranking.

goldenlox
Jan 27th, 2011, 05:03 AM
She had match point today. Its not like she was blown out. One good 1st serve from the final.
Why would any 20 year old think that means she has redo her style of play?

Polikarpov
Jan 27th, 2011, 05:04 AM
Unless she completely overhaul her stroke production and technique, or improve her transition and net play, her game will remain on plateau. You can't just go up to a defensive player like Karolina and tell her, "Go for your shots. Hit harder. Be more aggressive," because it just doesn't work that way. It's like telling a ballbasher to be more patient, contruct the points, and mix things up.

And the fact that she doesn't have enough court sense compound her problems.

simonsaystennis
Jan 27th, 2011, 05:06 AM
If Wozniacki just adds a little more power to her game, she will REALLY be a force. She's this good lacking power, but if she can consistently perform how she did against Schiavone this summer in Toronto (if I'm thinking of the right match) then I feel like she'd gain a lot more respect, and be able to reach that next level of a serious slam contender.

goldenlox
Jan 27th, 2011, 05:06 AM
She is not going to change her style. This is her 2nd slam semi in a row, and she had match point.
Nobody would change their style in that situation.
Just play one or 2 points better and you're in a slam final.

Slight improvements here & there. Everyone is trying to improve, not only Caroline.

Spring Pools
Jan 27th, 2011, 05:07 AM
I don't know, I actually think she's improving, but against players like Li Na she will always look like a pusher because of how aggressive these players are. Of course there's still a lot of room for her to improve, though, it's just not really her nature to go for winners, I guess.
Wonder what would happen in a match of Caro and Radwanska

young_gunner913
Jan 27th, 2011, 05:08 AM
She had match point today. Its not like she was blown out. One good 1st serve from the final.
Why would any 20 year old think that means she has redo her style of play?

Because waiting for her opponents to lose isn't going to cut it all the time.

PLP
Jan 27th, 2011, 05:08 AM
She is not going to change her style. This is her 2nd slam semi in a row, and she had match point.
Nobody would change their style in that situation.
Just play one or 2 points better and you're in a slam final.

I don't think she has to change her style, just step it up in big points.
She just needs to go for it a tad more. She has the power.

darrinbaker00
Jan 27th, 2011, 05:08 AM
Despite worldwide condemnation on her playing style, Caroline Pushniacki still insists on pushing in matches. In her AO semifinal against Li Na, she was 2 times a break up in the 2nd set and was in winning position but pushed. Eventually, Li won 3-6,7-5,6-3. Her pushing was evident in the 3rd set whereby she had 0 winners. So now the question here is: will Pushniacki ever learn that such a style of play will not win her majors? And if she does wake up, when will it be? Will it be too late?

When will you learn that "pushers" never make it past the club level, let alone #1 on the WTA computer? Will it be too late?

kman
Jan 27th, 2011, 05:09 AM
She had match point today. Its not like she was blown out. One good 1st serve from the final.
Why would any 20 year old think that means she has redo her style of play?

This. Wrong time to make this thread.

Perhaps Caroline choked a little bit after missed MP, but not more than she was able to break back in the third and keep it tight till the end. Most WTA players would've choked much worse after that missed MP, regardless of their playing style.

Up until that matchpoint Caroline was flawless.

madmax
Jan 27th, 2011, 05:09 AM
She is not going to change her style. This is her 2nd slam semi in a row, and she had match point.
Nobody would change their style in that situation.
Just play one or 2 points better and you're in a slam final.

Slight improvements here & there. Everyone is trying to improve, not only Caroline.

you are still in denial I see...
I guess your case is even more severe than I ever thought:confused:

Serenita
Jan 27th, 2011, 05:10 AM
http://i717.photobucket.com/albums/ww173/prestonjjrtr/Avatar/AvatarAustraliaKangarooJumping.gif

Never

goldenlox
Jan 27th, 2011, 05:17 AM
you are still in denial I see...
I guess your case is even more severe than I ever thought:confused:I might look back a few years from now & say it was denial. But right now I think Caro is right there, just has to be more solid on her 1st serve.
Its hard to win majors, but you keep getting match points in slam semis, you should be okay

silverwhite
Jan 27th, 2011, 05:23 AM
The bridesmaid in your avatar should learn also.

Come on. Don't insult Vera like that. She can hit hard!

BepaMaria
Jan 27th, 2011, 05:25 AM
Unless she completely overhaul her stroke production and technique, or improve her transition and net play, her game will remain on plateau. You can't just go up to a defensive player like Karolina and tell her, "Go for your shots. Hit harder. Be more aggressive," because it just doesn't work that way. It's like telling a ballbasher to be more patient, contruct the points, and mix things up.

And the fact that she doesn't have enough court sense compound her problems.

But the problem is that she can play attacking tennis as well. If you saw her 2nd round match against King, she was attacking very well. However, she was pushing too much today and you cannot do that against the better players if you want to win. Why is it that she wasn't aggressive today like in her match against King?

azinna
Jan 27th, 2011, 05:31 AM
The funny thing is, she is so defensive about her defensive game.

You have players like Hingis who used to admit she lacked power and wanted to work on that. Or Henin was she was coming up, acknowledging that she lacks aggression on important points. Or Schiavone now. These are all players who are naturally more "defensive-minded".

The difference being, IMO, that all these players had weapons and courtcraft they can use, or force themselves to execute even when under pressure. Wozniacki literally has none. She tries so hard to rationalise that.

Unfortunately for Caro the tour hasn't made it impossible for her to be #1 with her 5-winner style (as it certainly did during Henin's, Hingis', even ASV's time). So in press conferences, she gets those pressure-laced questions about that missing slam, etc. And she's right to defend her style and protect her confidence...while quietly working to improve that aspect of her game.

I say it's obvious to the objective eye that she's been trying to incorporate pace, conviction and winner-producing opportunism in her strokes. But it's also clear that despite her steely sunshine in pressers, the #1 thing is proving a terrible distraction. Truthfully, she should be in the final upswing of her formative period. Instead, her play through much of this month has been shoulder-heavy.

sammy01
Jan 27th, 2011, 05:46 AM
could goldenlox tell me how old caro is again, it has been 30 seconds since the last time i might have forgotten

John.
Jan 27th, 2011, 05:47 AM
Is goldenlox Caro's cheerleader :cheer:

Sp!ffy
Jan 27th, 2011, 05:48 AM
Come on. Don't insult Vera like that. She can hit hard!

Not in the big matches.

AcesHigh
Jan 27th, 2011, 05:50 AM
When will you learn that "pushers" never make it past the club level, let alone #1 on the WTA computer? Will it be too late?

:lol: this cannot be said enough

kman
Jan 27th, 2011, 05:51 AM
But the problem is that she can play attacking tennis as well. If you saw her 2nd round match against King, she was attacking very well. However, she was pushing too much today and you cannot do that against the better players if you want to win. Why is it that she wasn't aggressive today like in her match against King?

She had 5 out of 6 succesful net approaches early in the match. She was playing controlled aggression and it was working beautifully. The hinges just came off after the squandered MP.

hablo
Jan 27th, 2011, 05:54 AM
She had 5 out of 6 succesful net approaches early in the match. She was playing controlled aggression and it was working beautifully. The hinges just came off after the squandered MP.

Her demise started at *4-3 in the second set imo. Li Na started playing better from then. :p

Sure Caro broke back and served for the match but the Chinese was already getting it together.

Pops Maellard
Jan 27th, 2011, 06:17 AM
could goldenlox tell me how old caro is again, it has been 30 seconds since the last time i might have forgotten

:spit:

bandabou
Jan 27th, 2011, 06:27 AM
It only gets you so far...and until she learns it. I mean come on: 0 winners in a 3rd set of a SF?! :help:

A Magicman
Jan 27th, 2011, 06:30 AM
It only gets you so far...and until she learns it. I mean come on: 0 winners in a 3rd set of a SF?! :help:

It's the nature of moonballing that they don't get you too many direct winners. So give the poor girl a break.



:spit:

AnomyBC
Jan 27th, 2011, 06:33 AM
There was nothing wrong with the way she was playing in general, she just choked at the end of the 2nd set. I have no doubt that she can win slams playing the way she's been playing though. I expect her to eventually win several, and without changing that much about her game.

PMBH
Jan 27th, 2011, 06:46 AM
could goldenlox tell me how old caro is again, it has been 30 seconds since the last time i might have forgotten

But it's obviously a valid point. Age and experience matters. As Clijsters has pointed out, the first step for a young player towards being a champion is to be in contention every time. Eventually, taking the last step won't seem so difficult. No one can deny that Caro takes small steps forward all the time. This was her sixth consecutive top-4 finish in a Premium Five tournament or better.

Pops Maellard
Jan 27th, 2011, 06:49 AM
There was nothing wrong with the way she was playing in general, she just choked at the end of the 2nd set. I have no doubt that she can win slams playing the way she's been playing though. I expect her to eventually win several, and without changing that much about her game.

:weirdo: Stick to babe-watching.

Potato
Jan 27th, 2011, 06:51 AM
Wozniacki is not winning any slams until Kim and Serena retire.. she can't even beat Li Na (whom I love :hearts:) on the big stage. I know that pushing is her game, but she should know that this isn't going to get her anywhere against the top players. Hopefully she will work on it so she will get less shit from people like me.

Unfortunately, most of her play this tournament has not been impressive. Only the Vania match was a consistently good match from Caroline.

Bonfire
Jan 27th, 2011, 06:54 AM
Honestly...Caro was one point away from the finals. She was playing very well up until she was just about to win and then she freaked out. Na raised her level and is in the final. Stop trying to make it sound like Caro has a hopeless game that will never get her anywhere. She is currently performing better than most of the poster's faves who are trolling about how useless Caro is. :lol:

scoobz
Jan 27th, 2011, 06:56 AM
So, even though she's already been to one Grand Slam final, she's now freaking out and choking even at the prospect at reaching another one.

She played an awful match against Vera at the US Open and choked away this match against Li here.

Sounds to me like she's going backwards mentally, whatever her game situation might be :shrug: :D

Potato
Jan 27th, 2011, 07:02 AM
So, even though she's already been to one Grand Slam final, she's now freaking out and choking even at the prospect at reaching another one.

She played an awful match against Vera at the US Open and choked away this match against Li here.

Sounds to me like she's going backwards mentally, whatever her game situation might be :shrug: :D

Pressure of being number one :shrug: Same story with all the rest of the slamless #1's.

Bonfire
Jan 27th, 2011, 07:02 AM
So, even though she's already been to one Grand Slam final, she's now freaking out and choking even at the prospect at reaching another one.

She played an awful match against Vera at the US Open and choked away this match against Li here.

Sounds to me like she's going backwards mentally, whatever her game situation might be :shrug: :D

slipping through to a final drawing the likes of Oudin and Wickmayer with almost no attention being paid to you is a bit different than trying to validate a #1 ranking by getting to the finals. Considering her current situation...I would say getting a bit nervous is completely understandable...but she will learn from this situation and move forward.

scoobz
Jan 27th, 2011, 07:05 AM
slipping through to a final drawing the likes of Oudin and Wickmayer with almost no attention being paid to you is a bit different than trying to validate a #1 ranking by getting to the finals. Considering her current situation...I would say getting a bit nervous is completely understandable...but she will learn from this situation and move forward.
Oh I expect so.

Jankovic did.

Oh wait, that's not a good example.

Safina did.

No wait...

Never mind.

Bonfire
Jan 27th, 2011, 07:10 AM
Oh I expect so.

Jankovic did.

Oh wait, that's not a good example.

Safina did.

No wait...

Never mind.

yeah and Clijsters did.
oh yeah and
Venus Williams did
and I forgot
Justine Henin did
and also
well never mind:p

silverarrows
Jan 27th, 2011, 07:12 AM
Caro should watch Fed-Murray final last year. Pushing will not cut it indeed!

Betten
Jan 27th, 2011, 07:13 AM
Why would she need to drastically change her game now? The only people giving her trouble are older players like Schiavone, Li, Clijsters and the Williams sisters. The younger crop doesn't really pose much of a threat to her so far, so in a few years (once her older rivals have retired) she could be dominating with her game.

CloudAtlas
Jan 27th, 2011, 07:14 AM
Oh I expect so.

Jankovic did.

Oh wait, that's not a good example.

Safina did.

No wait...

Never mind.



Jankovic majorly lost interest in tennis in 2009 by her own admittance and Safina got a serious back injury. Granted there were heavy expectations on them but their fall from the top wasn't simply due to too much pressure.

PMBH
Jan 27th, 2011, 07:15 AM
Wozniacki is not winning any slams until Kim and Serena retire...

Wanna take a bet on that one?

I really wish you 'Caro non-believers' on this forum would put your money where your mouth is. I could have made a nice little nest egg from betting against all the dour predictions stated here in the past 2-3 years about Caro's potential and future :-)

Pops Maellard
Jan 27th, 2011, 07:16 AM
Why would she need to drastically change her game now? The only people giving her trouble are older players like Schiavone, Li, Clijsters and the Williams sisters. The younger crop doesn't really pose much of a threat to her so far, so in a few years (once her older rivals have retired) she could be dominating with her game.

Look at her losses in the slams. It's the simply on-fire players of the moment beating her, not the elite.

BepaMaria
Jan 27th, 2011, 07:20 AM
Why would she need to drastically change her game now? The only people giving her trouble are older players like Schiavone, Li, Clijsters and the Williams sisters. The younger crop doesn't really pose much of a threat to her so far, so in a few years (once her older rivals have retired) she could be dominating with her game.

In case you forgot...Wimbledon 2010 Round 4:Petra Kvitova def. Caroline Wozniacki 6-2,6-0

Khelvors
Jan 27th, 2011, 07:21 AM
li na wasn't even on fire, really; she made a trillion UEs, and i'm barely exaggerating. woz would've won if her mental strength didn't fail her.

(i'm going to assume all those uncharacteristic UEs were the result of her lack of this)

amaze
Jan 27th, 2011, 07:42 AM
This loss has nothing to do with her gamestyle. She just couldn't implement it fully, as much as she's able to, because if she did she would've pushed Na Li off the court easily.

bandabou
Jan 27th, 2011, 08:04 AM
Honestly...Caro was one point away from the finals. She was playing very well up until she was just about to win and then she freaked out. Na raised her level and is in the final. Stop trying to make it sound like Caro has a hopeless game that will never get her anywhere. She is currently performing better than most of the poster's faves who are trolling about how useless Caro is. :lol:

The problem with Caro, she hit only what 10 winners at most? Can't win many matches when you're so dependant on ufe from your opponents.
It's good when your opponent is missing, but when they raise their level...you must be able to respond and become aggressive yourself.

With Caro this never happens..it's just the same waiting game. Once Li found her range, that was it.

Alejandrawrrr
Jan 27th, 2011, 08:09 AM
To answer the OP's question, she will learn when that gamestyle doesn't get her thousands of points, millions of dollars and a #1 ranking. She has no reason to change now.

Betten
Jan 27th, 2011, 08:20 AM
In case you forgot...Wimbledon 2010 Round 4:Petra Kvitova def. Caroline Wozniacki 6-2,6-0

:angel:

That was pretty bad, but Kvitova was playing the tournament of her life and grass isn't really a good surface if you're playing a big hitter. But after that result she reached the final in six of her next seven tournaments, winning four times (beating Kvitova along the way). So she's definitely improving. I also think she's still learning how to play some of her opponents - with her game she needs to be able to anticipate, and that goes better if you know how your opponent plays. She was much more competitive against Clijsters in their second match, and she defeated Zvonareva twice after her loss to her in the US Open. Same with Schiavone.

BepaMaria
Jan 27th, 2011, 08:23 AM
To answer the OP's question, she will learn when that gamestyle doesn't get her thousands of points, millions of dollars and a #1 ranking. She has no reason to change now.

Yes she does. Now her focus isn't on money, points or the ranking. It is to win a slam so I still don't get why she doesn't play more aggressively. Pushing will not help her succeed in her goal.

Andreas
Jan 27th, 2011, 08:23 AM
In case you forgot...Wimbledon 2010 Round 4:Petra Kvitova def. Caroline Wozniacki 6-2,6-0

And then Caro improved and pretty much didn't lose a single match the rest of the year. I don't get why you have to find comfort in results from before Caro became no. 1 :lol: I don't see anyone bringing up the fact that Zvonareva had also lost in 2 with a bagel to Kvitova.

BlueTrees
Jan 27th, 2011, 08:27 AM
She's going to win multiple slams in the future anyway, like it or not :shrug: Personally I dont like her or her game but I dont see how she could NOT win a Slam, I mean, she's only 20.

BepaMaria
Jan 27th, 2011, 08:31 AM
And then Caro improved and pretty much didn't lose a single match the rest of the year. I don't get why you have to find comfort in results from before Caro became no. 1 :lol: I don't see anyone bringing up the fact that Zvonareva had also lost in 2 with a bagel to Kvitova.

I was just addressing Appleflen's point that the younger crop does not trouble Caro, which obviously isn't the case. And since when did Bepa got bagelled by Kvitova? It must have been at a time when Bepa was totally insignificant on the tour because I don't remember that at all.

BepaMaria
Jan 27th, 2011, 08:34 AM
She's going to win multiple slams in the future anyway, like it or not :shrug: Personally I dont like her or her game but I dont see how she could NOT win a Slam, I mean, she's only 20.
I'm sure you foresaw Safina winning multiple slams as well when she reached no.1 at a young age, but it wasnt meant to be.

bandabou
Jan 27th, 2011, 08:35 AM
:angel:

That was pretty bad, but Kvitova was playing the tournament of her life and grass isn't really a good surface if you're playing a big hitter. But after that result she reached the final in six of her next seven tournaments, winning four times (beating Kvitova along the way). So she's definitely improving. I also think she's still learning how to play some of her opponents - with her game she needs to be able to anticipate, and that goes better if you know how your opponent plays. She was much more competitive against Clijsters in their second match, and she defeated Zvonareva twice after her loss to her in the US Open. Same with Schiavone.


Time will tell...

sorceress
Jan 27th, 2011, 08:36 AM
There was nothing wrong with the way she was playing in general, she just choked at the end of the 2nd set. I have no doubt that she can win slams playing the way she's been playing though. I expect her to eventually win several, and without changing that much about her game.
Yes because your opinion is terribly accurate....considering your sig:rolleyes:
Honestly...Caro was one point away from the finals. She was playing very well up until she was just about to win and then she freaked out. Na raised her level and is in the final. Stop trying to make it sound like Caro has a hopeless game that will never get her anywhere. She is currently performing better than most of the poster's faves who are trolling about how useless Caro is. :lol:
If the shoe fits....
Oh I expect so.

Jankovic did.

Oh wait, that's not a good example.

Safina did.

No wait...

Never mind.
Bahaha so true!
She's going to win multiple slams in the future anyway, like it or not :shrug: Personally I dont like her or her game but I dont see how she could NOT win a Slam, I mean, she's only 20.

Well, that would be because of the lack of decent WTA players and not Wozniacki's...'talent'...
If we get some girls like Na Li or Sam Stosur, with decent mind strength....she'll go nowhere near a GS.

If she develops an attacking game then yes, she can contend but people are going to become aware of her style of play eventually.

AlwaysGraf
Jan 27th, 2011, 09:15 AM
I think Wozniacki will be this decade's transitional player a la Martina Hingis. She'll likely capitalise on the williams and clijsters departing, but she won't be the star of the next decade. Others, once they get their act together will push her aside. Just like what happened to Hingis. I don't think she'll win 5 slams though. I actually think if Kvitova and Lisicki, yes Lisicki should be one of the best players of the net generation!, get challenging soon, then the WOZ will struggle.

FIN

MB.
Jan 27th, 2011, 09:17 AM
Despite worldwide condemnation on her playing style, Caroline Pushniacki still insists on pushing in matches. In her AO semifinal against Li Na, she was 2 times a break up in the 2nd set and was in winning position but pushed. Eventually, Li won 3-6,7-5,6-3. Her pushing was evident in the 3rd set whereby she had 0 winners. So now the question here is: will Pushniacki ever learn that such a style of play will not win her majors? And if she does wake up, when will it be? Will it be too late?

Is this thread a joke? "worldwide condemnation"...wow. People would KILL to be able to "push" like Caro--getting to #1, mutlitple Slam SFs, a runner up, and millions of prize and sponsorship money.

Andreas
Jan 27th, 2011, 09:20 AM
I was just addressing Appleflen's point that the younger crop does not trouble Caro, which obviously isn't the case. And since when did Bepa got bagelled by Kvitova? It must have been at a time when Bepa was totally insignificant on the tour because I don't remember that at all.

Selective memory? Last year in Rome.

BepaMaria
Jan 27th, 2011, 09:25 AM
Selective memory? Last year in Rome.

All players have off days so I think Bepa just couldn't feel the ball that day. Heck even Nadal got bagelled by Lacko this year. Pushniacki on the other hand gets thrashed all the time.

Njalle
Jan 27th, 2011, 09:40 AM
With a matchpoint today, I would say that your argument is invalid, OP.

BepaMaria
Jan 27th, 2011, 09:45 AM
With a matchpoint today, I would say that your argument is invalid, OP.

Who won the match in the end? Not Pushniacki. So obviously pushing won't do it for her.

Njalle
Jan 27th, 2011, 09:50 AM
Who won the match in the end? Not Pushniacki. So obviously pushing won't do it for her.

Because there was no way she was ever gonna win that match point let alone possibly have a new one... right, this one's for the mental :lol:

sorceress
Jan 27th, 2011, 10:01 AM
The match point was only because Na had made unforced errors, no errors no GS final for Wozniacki.
It's like circles with you people!

Njalle
Jan 27th, 2011, 10:15 AM
The match point was only because Na had made unforced errors, no errors no GS final for Wozniacki.
It's like circles with you people!

Oh and it is just a coincidence that every player makes heaps of UEs against Wozniacki, I guess?

pro-tip: It's actually how she rolls.

Mistress of Evil
Jan 27th, 2011, 10:16 AM
If she keeps playing like this, she will eventually burn out. She is tall enough and have some muscles to be a hard-hitter but she seems to like her style and does not have any intentions to change it.

goldenlox
Jan 27th, 2011, 10:44 AM
Caro went as far the last 2 majors as Federer.
As far this major as Fed & Nadal.
How can back to back slam semis be bad, for anyone but Kim right now?

What kind of standard is Caro being held to?

She HAS to have the best results at every major, or her style of play is invalid?
She is doing very very good. Only Kim is doing better.
Vera isnt, she has no titles. Caro is winning Tier I's and 1 point from this slam final.

BepaMaria should worry about Vera & Maria, who both win only Mckey Mouse events, and both have lost 4 of 5 to Caro since that green clay injury Caro had.

Beat
Jan 27th, 2011, 11:38 AM
The bridesmaid in your avatar should learn also.

this.
it's really quite silly to - mabye rightly - attack wozniacki for these things, being a zvonareva fan.

CWTennis
Jan 27th, 2011, 11:46 AM
BepaMaria should worry about Vera & Maria, who both win only Mckey Mouse events, and both have lost 4 of 5 to Caro since that green clay injury Caro had.
+1 Mickey Mouse queen Vera! :lol:

goldenlox
Jan 27th, 2011, 11:52 AM
I'm a Vera fan, and she didnt play well in her semi.
She doesnt win any titles.
Every player except Kim has issues now.
Caro is doing as well as anyone except Kim.

homogenius
Jan 27th, 2011, 12:01 PM
Caro went as far the last 2 majors as Federer.
As far this major as Fed & Nadal.
How can back to back slam semis be bad, for anyone but Kim right now?

What kind of standard is Caro being held to?

She HAS to have the best results at every major, or her style of play is invalid?
She is doing very very good. Only Kim is doing better.
Vera isnt, she has no titles. Caro is winning Tier I's and 1 point from this slam final.

BepaMaria should worry about Vera & Maria, who both win only Mckey Mouse events, and both have lost 4 of 5 to Caro since that green clay injury Caro had.

Hot mess of a post :lol:
She did well during the HC season and at the YEC but her results in slams are questionnable.Kim, Serena, Franny, Vera, Sam and possibly Li had similar and/or better results in the last 4 slams.

The Kaz
Jan 27th, 2011, 12:05 PM
Nice post. Now go back and time and write: the match was all Vika until Serena made mash potatoes with her. You should know better: in tennis, it's not over until it's over. So no, was not a routine win for Caro.

That match just proved that Serena is a major opputunist in GS. She would of been lucky to win 5 slams if the tour wasn't such a bunch of mental retards.

At least Caro has a brain and a solid head on her shoulders. I wish her well this year :yeah:

Mr.Sharapova
Jan 27th, 2011, 12:13 PM
Well pushing doesn't require such a huge use of the brain after all :shrug:.

Anyway It seems like Brainless Ballbashers have more brain that Pushers after all :)

bandabou
Jan 27th, 2011, 12:30 PM
Caro went as far the last 2 majors as Federer.
As far this major as Fed & Nadal.
How can back to back slam semis be bad, for anyone but Kim right now?

What kind of standard is Caro being held to?

She HAS to have the best results at every major, or her style of play is invalid?
She is doing very very good. Only Kim is doing better.
Vera isnt, she has no titles. Caro is winning Tier I's and 1 point from this slam final.

BepaMaria should worry about Vera & Maria, who both win only Mckey Mouse events, and both have lost 4 of 5 to Caro since that green clay injury Caro had.

Are you serious? Nadal was on a 3-major winning streak, Roger is a legend... how are they comparable to Caro? when Roger of Nadal don't reach F it's called a bad result. And you want people to say: good job Caro! when she only reached the SF and still hasn't won a major...and hasn't even reached a F while being no.1?! :haha: :rolls:

debby
Jan 27th, 2011, 12:32 PM
Are you serious? Nadal was on a 3-major winning streak, Roger is a legend... how are they comparable to Caro? when Roger of Nadal don't reach F it's called a bad result. And you want people to say: good job Caro! when she only reached the SF and still hasn't won a major...and hasn't even reached a F while being no.1?! :haha: :rolls:

especially that Nadal had to wait for 5 slams and Olympics to get that #1 spot

BepaMaria
Jan 27th, 2011, 12:33 PM
this.
it's really quite silly to - mabye rightly - attack wozniacki for these things, being a zvonareva fan.

This thread has nothing to do with Zvonareva. Everything I've said is valid and in no way am I attacking her. If you have nothing constructive to say, do not pollute this thread with your rubbish.

Caro went as far the last 2 majors as Federer.
As far this major as Fed & Nadal.
How can back to back slam semis be bad, for anyone but Kim right now?

What kind of standard is Caro being held to?

She HAS to have the best results at every major, or her style of play is invalid?
She is doing very very good. Only Kim is doing better.
Vera isnt, she has no titles. Caro is winning Tier I's and 1 point from this slam final.

BepaMaria should worry about Vera & Maria, who both win only Mckey Mouse events, and both have lost 4 of 5 to Caro since that green clay injury Caro had.

Pushniacki is the world #1, the best player in the world according to the rankings. Hence, she is expected to win grand slams that she participates in and not lose any matches. Anything less would equate to falling short of expectations. By losing to Li Na in the semis, she has not met the mark for a world #1.

And I do not need to worry about my idols. I strongly believe Bepa will win a slam this year and Masha has won 3 already while Pushniacki has none. As a fan of Masha, deep down I know that she's done after that shoulder injury and am thankful that she is still playing and not retired like Justine or Elena.

bandabou
Jan 27th, 2011, 01:09 PM
especially that Nadal had to wait for 5 slams and Olympics to get that #1 spot

Exactly..:lol:

young_gunner913
Jan 27th, 2011, 01:13 PM
That match just proved that Serena is a major opputunist in GS. She would of been lucky to win 5 slams if the tour wasn't such a bunch of mental retards.

At least Caro has a brain and a solid head on her shoulders. I wish her well this year :yeah:

Bitch please. Serena's beat all the players Caro is losing to bar her 1 match vs Kim. Go off and cry about Stosur failing before her country yet again. The poor mug. :awww:

Caralenko
Jan 27th, 2011, 01:14 PM
What kind of standard is Caro being held to?

World #1 standard. Her slam results are abysmal.
She isn't even as harshly criticized as Safina and Jankovic were. Wonder why. :rolleyes:

goldenlox
Jan 27th, 2011, 01:14 PM
Kim deserves the #1 spot. Getting to the last 2 slam semis, YEC final, winning 4 of the last 5 premiers she entered, is pretty good. Caro's style of play doesnt need to change.
Federer just lost the last 2 slam semis. Match point in one of them.
It happens to the best.

Ellery
Jan 27th, 2011, 01:16 PM
There aren't that many players who have the ability to actually beat Caro, and hold it in a slam mentally. She was a bit unlucky here, and she will win a Slam sooner or later, I think. :)

bandabou
Jan 27th, 2011, 01:27 PM
Kim deserves the #1 spot. Getting to the last 2 slam semis, YEC final, winning 4 of the last 5 premiers she entered, is pretty good. Caro's style of play doesnt need to change.
Federer just lost the last 2 slam semis. Match point in one of them.
It happens to the best.

Ah please stop making a fool out of yourself. Federer already has 16 majors, is in the final stages of his career.
And isn't even world no.1 like Caro is.

goldenlox
Jan 27th, 2011, 01:34 PM
There aren't that many players who have the ability to actually beat Caro, and hold it in a slam mentally. She was a bit unlucky here, and she will win a Slam sooner or later, I think. :)I think she will be competing, maybe winning some, for majors for years. Of course, the dropoffs of so many players, like Dinara, Maria, Jelena, Ana..
A lot can happen, but right now, Caro is close. Kim is still the player to beat at majors now.

Njalle
Jan 27th, 2011, 01:51 PM
World #1 standard. Her slam results are abysmal.
She isn't even as harshly criticized as Safina and Jankovic were. Wonder why. :rolleyes:

:haha:

2xSF, 1xQF and 1xR4 in pretty good in fact. Could be better, but hey - how many players have made it past R4 in every slam during the past year?

Mynarco
Jan 27th, 2011, 02:01 PM
Kim deserves the #1 spot. Getting to the last 2 slam semis, YEC final, winning 4 of the last 5 premiers she entered, is pretty good. Caro's style of play doesnt need to change.
Federer just lost the last 2 slam semis. Match point in one of them.
It happens to the best.

You compared Federer with Wozniacki :o:tape::tape::tape::tape::tape:

bandabou
Jan 27th, 2011, 02:07 PM
:haha:

2xSF, 1xQF and 1xR4 in pretty good in fact. Could be better, but hey - how many players have made it past R4 in every slam during the past year?

Make it: SHOULD be better.

kman
Jan 27th, 2011, 02:09 PM
Kim deserves the #1 spot. Getting to the last 2 slam semis, YEC final, winning 4 of the last 5 premiers she entered, is pretty good. Caro's style of play doesnt need to change.
Federer just lost the last 2 slam semis. Match point in one of them.
It happens to the best.

both Federer and Nadal lost their semis. So yea, it happens to the best. At least Caro was 1 point away from reaching the final and they didn't even win a set.

hehe

Vikapower
Jan 27th, 2011, 02:15 PM
But the problem is that she can play attacking tennis as well. If you saw her 2nd round match against King, she was attacking very well. However, she was pushing too much today and you cannot do that against the better players if you want to win. Why is it that she wasn't aggressive today like in her match against King?
This is completely irrelevant, King worths nothing and anybody, for instance any pusher would hit 20+ winners against the Asian-american (...) Caro Woz faced Li Na a much more offensive player watch how much winners she stroke in the match ! :lol:

That match just proved that Serena is a major opputunist in GS. She would of been lucky to win 5 slams if the tour wasn't such a bunch of mental retards.

At least Caro has a brain and a solid head on her shoulders. I wish her well this year :yeah:
Your post started so well to end like a complete mess. :rolleyes: Definitively Serena has taken advantage on the huge weaknesses of the tour which are returns of serve and mental to pile up the majors (...) but where the difference is that Caro Woz does the same and doesn't win any of them that's where the respect for Serena has to come from each and every one of us (...) at least she's winning the bigger events, Sushine Caro can't aspire for that since with her push push style of play !

Mistress of Evil
Jan 27th, 2011, 02:15 PM
both Federer and Nadal lost their semis. So yea, it happens to the best. At least Caro was 1 point away from reaching the final and they didn't even win a set.

hehe

I am not hating or sth. :angel: But really :o Comparing two of the all-time greats tennis player to Wozniacki :spit: I am even mentioning them plus her in the same sentence is a blasphemy. :tape:

Brena
Jan 27th, 2011, 02:22 PM
both Federer and Nadal lost their semis. So yea, it happens to the best. At least Caro was 1 point away from reaching the final and they didn't even win a set.

hehe

*DEAD* You're actually a Woz-hater posing as fan, admit it!
Anyway, your post reminded me of this:

So That’s Who I Remind Me Of
By Ogden Nash

When I consider men of golden talents,
I’m delighted, in my introverted way,
To discover, as I’m drawing up the balance,
How much we have in common, I and they.

Like Burns, I have a weakness for the bottle,
Like Shakespeare, little Latin and less Greek;
I bite my fingernails like Aristotle;
Like Thackeray, I have a snobbish streak.

I’m afflicted with the vanity of Byron,
I’ve inherited the spitefulness of Pope;
Like Petrarch, I’m a sucker for a siren,
Like Milton, I’ve a tendency to mope.

My spelling is suggestive of a Chaucer;
Like Johnson, well, I do not wish to die
(I also drink my coffee from the saucer);
And if Goldsmith was a parrot, so am I.

Like Villon, I have debits by the carload,
Like Swinburne, I’m afraid I need a nurse;
By my dicing is Christopher out-Marlowed,
And I dream as much as Coleridge, only worse.

In comparison with men of golden talents,
I am all a man of talent ought to be;
I resemble every genius in his vice, however heinous—
Yet I write so much like me

goldenlox
Jan 27th, 2011, 02:31 PM
I am not hating or sth. :angel: But really :o Comparing two of the all-time greats tennis player to Wozniacki :spit: I am even mentioning them plus her in the same sentence is a blasphemy. :tape:It is not comparing them as players, or their place in history.
Its saying this can happen to even the best, so its not a panic sitaution.
Its part of a 20 year old's learning process.
Any good player will be in a lot of these matches, and will lose some of them.

Vikapower
Jan 27th, 2011, 02:31 PM
both Federer and Nadal lost their semis. So yea, it happens to the best. At least Caro was 1 point away from reaching the final and they didn't even win a set.

hehe
Yeah well Fed has 16 majors and has nothing to prove anymore - he lost to a big 4 player who was playing greatness not to some useless Berdick head, Nad got out with injury and has 9 majors - Ferrer played mesmerizing tennis though if it wasn't the relentless Ferrer, Nad could have still pull up the win, Caro Woz has 10+ MMs got outplayed, what a great comparison, indeed these things happens to the best !

BepaMaria
Jan 27th, 2011, 02:41 PM
both Federer and Nadal lost their semis. So yea, it happens to the best. At least Caro was 1 point away from reaching the final and they didn't even win a set.

hehe

Just like others have said, comparing Wozniacki to Federer and Nadal is really an insult to both of them. They are GOAT contenders and all time greats with multiple slams while Pushniacki hasnt even won a slam. Heck she doesnt even have the right to be compared to Murray and Soderling who both have reached 2 slam finals while she herself has only reached one:o.

homogenius
Jan 27th, 2011, 02:51 PM
It is not comparing them as players, or their place in history.
Its saying this can happen to even the best, so its not a panic sitaution.
Its part of a 20 year old's learning process.
Any good player will be in a lot of these matches, and will lose some of them.

and like Fed or Nadal, they manage to win some as well, while Caro...

Gdsimmons
Jan 27th, 2011, 02:55 PM
I think the most evident point was pretty much that match point and pretty much everything in the 3rd set. HAd any of the other top players had that MP, they would have taken it by an ace or a great winner. But not Caroline. She was content on just pushing the ball back in and waiting for Li Na to make the error. Thats not how you win a Slam Semi. And damn sure its not how you win a final

Njalle
Jan 27th, 2011, 03:06 PM
Make it: SHOULD be better.

Either way, they sure as hell ain't abysmal. 98 percent of the tour will never get those kind of results.

n1_and_uh_noone
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:00 PM
Na was feeling the pressure to win this match, not only because of the history, but because she knew she should win based on quality of play alone. That is why the match was even this close. Of course, Wozniacki did her part by serving well and prolonging rallies.

Fact remains that no matter how strong Wozniacki is mentally (and this is great for her, she really shows superb resolve to hang in there whenever she can), if her opponent can control rallies, she has no options except to hope they miss. She must have sliced about 2-3 times in the whole match, despite winning the point every time she did so. Each time she is pulled wide, she just pats the ball down the middle at a tempting height for Na to swat away.

Early on, Wozniacki tried to go for winners but missed surprisingly often. It either means she is not feeling confident to convert such chances because she doesn't do it enough, or (IMO) her racket is really hurting the penetration on her shots, especially her forehand. Either way, she needs to address it.

oomph
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:20 PM
Despite worldwide condemnation on her playing style, Caroline Pushniacki still insists on pushing in matches. In her AO semifinal against Li Na, she was 2 times a break up in the 2nd set and was in winning position but pushed. Eventually, Li won 3-6,7-5,6-3. Her pushing was evident in the 3rd set whereby she had 0 winners. So now the question here is: will Pushniacki ever learn that such a style of play will not win her majors? And if she does wake up, when will it be? Will it be too late?

She is playing more offensively. She actually went up the line and hit BH DTL winners. Her FH CC had some steam behind it. Against Schiavone, when she was losing, she suddenly wen't ball basher mode and showed some emotion. Her best tennis I've seen in this tournament.

She is obviously trying to improve but it's hard to fight your instincts. Her fore hand still sucks and her serve and return game is way too creampuff to put pressure on people. Add to that the lack of a killer instinct and this is what you see.

Caro actually didn't push much in the first two sets. She was taking the ball earlier than usual and hit it away from Li, also she hit some nice counter-punch winners. But she reverted back to her usual game, which is to hit deep but conservative. It works against many players, but doesn't work against Li, since her shots have such penetration. In fact against Na Li you may want to hit short balls, as she is prone to over-hit them. Li is a bad matchup for Caro...

Actually it worked against Li or else she wouldn't have had MPs. :lol:

Wozniacki is not winning any slams until Kim and Serena retire.. she can't even beat Li Na (whom I love :hearts:) on the big stage. I know that pushing is her game, but she should know that this isn't going to get her anywhere against the top players. Hopefully she will work on it so she will get less shit from people like me.

Unfortunately, most of her play this tournament has not been impressive. Only the Vania match was a consistently good match from Caroline.

She isn't winning any slams anymore because she lost to the most in form player of the tournament at the age of 20. :lol:

Kim deserves the #1 spot. Getting to the last 2 slam semis, YEC final, winning 4 of the last 5 premiers she entered, is pretty good. Caro's style of play doesnt need to change.
Federer just lost the last 2 slam semis. Match point in one of them.
It happens to the best.

He lost to a beast of a player called Djokovic. Caro lost to Vera and Na.

:haha:

2xSF, 1xQF and 1xR4 in pretty good in fact. Could be better, but hey - how many players have made it past R4 in every slam during the past year?

Ahem. NO FINALS.

I am not hating or sth. :angel: But really :o Comparing two of the all-time greats tennis player to Wozniacki :spit: I am even mentioning them plus her in the same sentence is a blasphemy. :tape:

Well they lost in the same round, so... :lol:

Just like others have said, comparing Wozniacki to Federer and Nadal is really an insult to both of them. They are GOAT contenders and all time greats with multiple slams while Pushniacki hasnt even won a slam. Heck she doesnt even have the right to be compared to Murray and Soderling who both have reached 2 slam finals while she herself has only reached one:o.

Honestly, she is way too young to be compared to those guys anyway.

VishaalMaria
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:25 PM
That last point sums up why I just can't cheer for Caroline in her matches! She had a great opportunity to save the match point against her and ultimately take the game to deuce: She hit a great backhand down the line putting Na on the defensive but instead of somehow finishing at the net, she played a shot which made the rally neutral again.

It's too frustrating!

Majority of players would have won that point. But it's still a testament to Caroline in a good respect, the fact she doesnt have any oomph and can still be in with a chance of winning.

MisterMan
Jan 27th, 2011, 04:31 PM
"making the cut"? How many weeks and counting is she Number 1 in the world?? there aint any higher she can go. It looks like every single other player in the world isn't "making the cut" LoL

Jorn
Jan 27th, 2011, 05:21 PM
Caro has been no 1 since oct and stays there more weeks. She reached no 2 playing like today, and may not change much...

LightWarrior
Jan 27th, 2011, 11:08 PM
Caro has been no 1 since oct and stays there more weeks. She reached no 2 playing like today, and may not change much...

Well that's sad, don't you think ?
I'm horrified when I take a look at the 3rd set stats. 0 (zero) winners. No guts, still desperately hoping to capitalize on Li's errors. This is not maths we're talking about, we're talking about what it takes to win a 3rd set GS semi final. Woz needs to overhaul her game completely. I suspect her $$$ father as a coach is no good to her.

Corswandt
Jan 27th, 2011, 11:19 PM
Despite worldwide condemnation on her playing style, Caroline Pushniacki

I can't even begin to tell you how much I love this sentence. "Worldwide condemnation".

goldenlox
Jan 27th, 2011, 11:20 PM
... Woz needs to overhaul her game completely. I suspect her $$$ father as a coach is no good to her.I think if you have match point in a slam semi, she doesnt need to 'overhaul her game completely'.
Just keep improving. Li and Kim are around 7,8 years older than Caro.

Pops Maellard
Jan 27th, 2011, 11:24 PM
My God, everytime she loses in the slams with her sub-5 winner performances (in this case in 2/3 sets) the same excuses roll in.

"She's young" "She's improving". Well clearly she's not.

How many losses is it going to take? :lol: No slam finals for Caro besides her '09 USO cakewalk. She doesn't have "it" people. :wavey:

Like someone said before, Nadal needed 5 slams and the olympics before he became #1. Caro doesn't even need a slam final. :happy:

The Dawntreader
Jan 27th, 2011, 11:28 PM
That matchpoint was indicative of Caro's inability to win these kind of matches. Dropping her forehand shot and allowing Li to play offensively. Surely the greater subtext is that Li WENT for her shot. Something the world number 1 is palpably unable to do.

It's tragic, and i have no idea how anyone can contest it.

goldenlox
Jan 27th, 2011, 11:33 PM
When you are serving at match point,there is the ability to win the match.
We will see over time, but right now, Caro is 6,7,8 years younger than the other semifinalists.

MakarovaFan
Jan 27th, 2011, 11:33 PM
Caro might feel bad she lost with a match point, but this match was all Caro until she was broken at 54, otherwise its a routine 63 64 win.
Yea because Na Li couldnt keep a ball in the court until that point......regardless if she had a match point or not,that has nothing to do with the thread's question.

LightWarrior
Jan 27th, 2011, 11:37 PM
I think if you have match point in a slam semi, she doesnt need to 'overhaul her game completely'.
Just keep improving. Li and Kim are around 7,8 years older than Caro.

"keep improving" her pushing game ? How do you do that ? Besides she's 20, which is not that young in women's tennis. By the age of 20, Seles had already won 8 slams.

goldenlox
Jan 27th, 2011, 11:40 PM
20 is young now. The last time a teen won a major was 2004. Most slam winners are over 25 recently, including this slam.

debby
Jan 27th, 2011, 11:46 PM
When you are serving at match point,there is the ability to win the match.
We will see over time, but right now, Caro is 6,7,8 years younger than the other semifinalists.

I am sorry but when you have MP, you don't keep playing like you did in the whole match (except if you have taken your chances by yourself), you HAVE TO take this. It is the most important point of the match.

madmax
Jan 27th, 2011, 11:47 PM
20 is young now. The last time a teen won a major was 2004. Most slam winners are over 25 recently, including this slam.

she is not gonna be 20 forever. And eventually younger, more talented players will arise from juniors and kick her pushing ass down the rankings. She doesn't have the talent or willingness to change her limited game, so she has no room to improve. Soon she will follow in the footsteps of Safina and Jankovic.

goldenlox
Jan 27th, 2011, 11:48 PM
I remember Henin blowing some matches. One on green clay against Venus, a bunch of them. And she went on to win majors.
She enjoys playing this style, she believes in it, and she is going to have a career with her style.
I cant imagine Caro making major style changes to her game now.
She might come to net more, or go for more on her serve, but the basic style is working for her so far.

debby
Jan 27th, 2011, 11:50 PM
I agree with Goldie, she is young, so don't need to act like she is done with her pushing game. She can be more aggressive. She can improve a lot. She is 20, that's very young.

So it's wrong to say that.
Justine has started winning Slams at 21/22.... Fran won her first Slam at 29....


I don't buy that age thing.

Pops Maellard
Jan 27th, 2011, 11:50 PM
I remember Henin blowing some matches. One on green clay against Venus, a bunch of them. And she went on to win majors.

Henin's matches are not out of her hands, dependant 100% on how the opponent plays. :lol:

debby
Jan 27th, 2011, 11:51 PM
I remember Henin blowing some matches. One on green clay against Venus, a bunch of them. And she went on to win majors.

lol

we are talking about SF in Slams ^^ of course it happened to Justine not to take all her chances in SF (Bartoli lol) , but I don't think we can say she was relying on the opponent's mistakes in GS SF.

sorceress
Jan 27th, 2011, 11:57 PM
she is not gonna be 20 forever. And eventually younger, more talented players will arise from juniors and kick her pushing ass down the rankings. She doesn't have the talent or willingness to change her limited game, so she has no room to improve. Soon she will follow in the footsteps of Safina and Jankovic.
Exactly.
But her age isn't the factor, sooner or later players will cotton onto how she wins matches and will adapt themselves to her game.
Defensive teams in sport only last a season or two, before they are beaten soundly and pulled back into the pack.
And that's usually because if there's a way to get through the defence...the soft underbelly is exposed.

I remember about 2 years ago in a main sport in Australia (Rugby League) we had a team that was at the top of the competition with maily defence....they just didn't let the opposition score any points....but they were poor with offence themselves and people hated watching their games.

The following year, however, they were found out and actually finished bottom of the ladder because with their defence figured out...they had no attack to fall back on.
I remember Henin blowing some matches. One on green clay against Venus, a bunch of them. And she went on to win majors.
Can you please stop comparing her to players that are much much better than her?
If she needs to be compared...it's a Dinara or particularly a Jankovic...who also plays a defensive game but actually uses her athleticism and placement to win points.
But those are the most accurate to compare to and even with these two they have abilities that they work on and still....they feature poorly.

Yorker
Jan 28th, 2011, 12:00 AM
I remember Henin blowing some matches. One on green clay against Venus, a bunch of them. And she went on to win majors.
She enjoys playing this style, she believes in it, and she is going to have a career with her style.
I cant imagine Caro making major style changes to her game now.
She might come to net more, or go for more on her serve, but the basic style is working for her so far.



The basic style is getting her only so far though. She can win all the outside tournaments she wants and run with them. Tennis while a year long sport is about the 4 prestigous slams. Caro will ALWAYS run into an in form player during a slam, and she will be screwed every time she plays them. Na Li was utter SHIT for a set and a half but you and others aren't even addressing how bad she was. What happened when she started playing remotely well? The match turned.

I'm not a psychic, when the williams and clijsters retire, obviously her slam chances go way up but if she keeps this style until the day she retires her slam wins will be low and you can book that. Some players turn it on during slams, they're capable of going to another level while Caro continuosly stays at the same level playing as a consistent backboard. The only thing it will take to beat her is one player having an on day, until then she relies on errors for a lot of her points. That kind of tennis only gets you so far.

goldenlox
Jan 28th, 2011, 12:03 AM
Lets take a negative view. Say she stops winning matches, and falls off like Jankovic.
Caro will still play this style, this is the way she grew up. This style already won 12 tournaments, $8 million in prizemoney. And she feels she is still on the rise. This was only her 3rd slam semi, but 2nd in a row.

She's not going to change her style because some people on a message board prefer ball bashing

azinna
Jan 28th, 2011, 12:16 AM
^I actually think many who you're arguing with will agree with this last post. Some would even say that she has no choice heed or not heed the advice from boards and pressers: that she is simply not able to change or effectively improve upon her style. We'll have to see.

Beny
Jan 28th, 2011, 12:19 AM
I really dont get it why she should change her style. Should have Clijsters changed her style after having lost so many GS finals?

Today´s WTA is so about hit&miss. You have badly moving/tall/fat girls dominating with hitting the lines, going for it on the 2nd, 3rd shot. Caro would be really stupid if she- with her strengths and talent she has- tried to do what they do. She is using her assets in her favour tremendously.

With her game, she can wear down Schiavone! Just re-watch the YEC match. Schiavone was alright coming into the match. First set she dominated with her FO final-like tennis. In the second set the games got extremely long, long tough rallies. Caro was patient, loads of top spin, Schiavone had to run and earn every point really hard. In the third she was out of energy.

Also the Beijing final, that was really far from pushing.

Caro is very sensible. She knows what she has to do in order to win.
She was one point away from the final. Next time she might hit an ace on MP and there will be no room for threads like this

n1_and_uh_noone
Jan 28th, 2011, 12:30 AM
One thing that works against Caro's gameplan at the majors is that players prepare extra hard for these events, physically as well as mentally (motivation is higher). The day off means they are willing to get into a scrap, which they are likely to against her, but they are also going to go more for their shots in an effort to go deeper into the tournament wile conserving energy i.e. take initiative early against her.

I think it is instructive to see what someone like Vera is doing with her game. She is making a conscious effort to serve better, approach the net more, play with more variety. She is also defending much better now, which she sometimes falls in love with a little too much :lol:. However, Vera is not a big girl herself, so she lacks the killer punch of Serena/Venus/Kim. Still, she gives herself the best shot to take charge of points any way she is capable of.

It is stupid to go for broke all the time (see how Na struggled to stay in the match when missing everything in sight), but Caro should learn tactical and positional aggression i.e. hitting severe angles (with plenty of height and margin, which is fine) combined with short low balls, and an occasional drive which she is perfectly capable of at least off her backhand. Her rally forehand was actually quite good at the end of last year. Don't know what happened to it. Right now, the steady diet of constant pace balls she hits allows opponents (even those who are missing badly to start with) to find their rhythm during the course of the match.

azinna
Jan 28th, 2011, 12:51 AM
I really dont get it why she should change her style. Should have Clijsters changed her style after having lost so many GS finals?
....She was one point away from the final. Next time she might hit an ace on MP and there will be no room for threads like this

Well, the Clijsters of 2005 was a significant improvement on her base game, striking a better, slam-winning balance between aggression and defense. I'd say the comeback version is even better. Folks will look for that in Caro.

Unless you're just lucky, you need to be hitting aces or winners with some frequency during previous points, big and small, to expect to execute on MP. Anyway, Caro was two very difficult matches away from silencing her critics. Losing another final wouldn't have appeased.

sorceress
Jan 28th, 2011, 12:56 AM
She's not going to change her style because some people on a message board prefer ball bashing

I'm pretty sure it's not just this forum....

Anyway, I'm sure she'll change her style once she continues to go slamless..
She only dominates at the small tournaments (like Jankovic did) but at the GS where there are some serious contenders she will continue to fall.

Beny
Jan 28th, 2011, 01:02 AM
Well, the Clijsters of 2005 was a significant improvement on her base game, striking a better, slam-winning balance between aggression and defense. I'd say the comeback version is even better. Folks will look for that in Caro.

Unless you're just lucky, you need to be hitting aces or winners with some frequency during previous points, big and small, to expect to execute on MP. Anyway, Caro was two very difficult matches away from silencing her critics. Losing another final wouldn't have appeased.

I dont see any significant improvement between Kim 2003 and 2005.

You know, beating Pierce (with the performance she put up that day) might be slightly easier than beating peak Henin in a slam final. I dont think a 2003 Clijsters wouldnt beat Pierce.

And about Caro, the way she played against Zvonareva in Beijing final and against Schiavone at YEC is agressive enough to win a slam IMO. We shall see in next years. If there will be some significant or slight improvement/change in Caro´s game winning her a slam.

Lachy
Jan 28th, 2011, 01:04 AM
It won't as she doesn't go out and win matches, she waits for her opponent to win or lose the matches themselves. She's incredibly consistent and it wins her a lot of matches, but she is always going to be exposed to in-form players that have big weapons. She needs to develop a weapon herself that isn't in the movement/defensive category. Major technical problems with her forehand, so maybe she should work on making her backhand a bigger weapon.

azinna
Jan 28th, 2011, 01:47 AM
I dont see any significant improvement between Kim 2003 and 2005...

That's fine, but it's there. As borne out by her clear dominance on hard court that year, and her success at turning around her poor head-to-head against Venus.

...And about Caro, the way she played against Zvonareva in Beijing final and against Schiavone at YEC is agressive enough to win a slam IMO. We shall see in next years. If there will be some significant or slight improvement/change in Caro´s game winning her a slam.

As I posted earlier, there are clear indications that Caro is trying to incorporate aggression into her game. The next big step is for her not to revert or even regress in the biggest matches and highest-stakes points. And again she has to avoid this with the added pressure of being #1. Tough, but her slam success depends on her ability to negotiate this last set of tricky hurdles.

Steven.
Jan 28th, 2011, 02:13 AM
She knows this is the only way she'll get deeper in tournaments. You all see how she gets under pressure, starts trying to overpower the opponent but ends up making UE after UE after UE and then reverts back to Plan A aka playing not to lose when she finds out she can't do anything else. :wavey:

edit: honestly though, I miss early 09 Woz.

Steven.
Jan 28th, 2011, 02:30 AM
both Federer and Nadal lost their semis. So yea, it happens to the best. At least Caro was 1 point away from reaching the final and they didn't even win a set.

hehe

hahahaha Danes these days.

Roookie
Jan 28th, 2011, 02:37 AM
What I want to know is what it will take to get her the hell out of number one. Kim can't do it by winning AO and will be defending Miami soon..while I believe Caro only defends a few MM points in the next months and can gain much more at RG and WI :o

Leo_DFP
Jan 28th, 2011, 02:40 AM
What else is she gonna do? It's not like her technique is going to change anytime soon. She can't sustain aggression on the court, it's not her game.

She'll likely be a consistent Slam performer but there's no certainty she's going to win any.

Leo_DFP
Jan 28th, 2011, 02:43 AM
I remember Henin blowing some matches. One on green clay against Venus, a bunch of them. And she went on to win majors.
She enjoys playing this style, she believes in it, and she is going to have a career with her style.
I cant imagine Caro making major style changes to her game now.
She might come to net more, or go for more on her serve, but the basic style is working for her so far.

I don't see the parallels at all. That 2002 Amelia Island final, Justine was hitting winners from everywhere. All parts of the court. Justine was a choker for years but always had the talent and the ability to attack. Meanwhile, Caroline actually does pretty well mentally. She just doesn't have much of these matches in her own hands.

Pops Maellard
Jan 28th, 2011, 02:46 AM
What I want to know is what it will take to get her the hell out of number one. Kim can't do it by winning AO and will be defending Miami soon..while I believe Caro only defends a few MM points in the next months and can gain much more at RG and WI :o

If Kim wins AO and reaches SF of Paris Indoors she's #1.

Roookie
Jan 28th, 2011, 03:06 AM
If Kim wins AO and reaches SF of Paris Indoors she's #1.

Let's hope Kim does win the final :bounce:

Journeywoman
Jan 28th, 2011, 04:57 AM
La Borz is not that good.

mauresmofan
Jan 28th, 2011, 05:19 AM
In fairness she was 1 point from making another Slam final so her style of play isn't that terribe and she's also no.1 with that style of play. It's squash tennis but yes she does need to attack a bit more - she could run around her forehand and go for a few backhand winners when needs be but that forehand does need a drastic overhall.

Khelvors
Jan 28th, 2011, 05:31 AM
it's the outcome that matters in the end; it doesn't matter if you had 10 match points if you blew them all. i don't like giving too much credit to people for [I]almost[I] succeeding.

mauresmofan
Jan 28th, 2011, 05:48 AM
it's the outcome that matters in the end; it doesn't matter if you had 10 match points if you blew them all. i don't like giving too much credit to people for [i]almost[i] succeeding.

Well what's being questioned here in this thread is whether or not Carolines game is good enough to make the cut and if you can get within 1 point of making the final and are no.1 in the world with that style of play then clearly her game isn't that bad. Li Na could just have easily missed that shot she went for such is her game. I just think too many people are jumping on Caroline including the press just because she doesn't go for her shots and in fact I believe that her game will force the ballbashers to think about what they're doing more and play smarter and with more margin for error rather than just belt the ball as hard as can be and try and hit their opponent off the court because when they try that with Caroline they often come up short because she'll make them play shot after shot.

Beny
Jan 28th, 2011, 09:53 AM
That's fine, but it's there. As borne out by her clear dominance on hard court that year, and her success at turning around her poor head-to-head against Venus.



As I posted earlier, there are clear indications that Caro is trying to incorporate aggression into her game. The next big step is for her not to revert or even regress in the biggest matches and highest-stakes points. And again she has to avoid this with the added pressure of being #1. Tough, but her slam success depends on her ability to negotiate this last set of tricky hurdles.

She was good on hard courts in 2003 too. And since when do we measure a player´s improvement by their H2H record against Venus? :shrug:
So every player who turns their H2H against Venus is improved, while everyone who has 3 consecutive losses to Venus has got worse.. :worship: great logic


With the rest I agree, but it´s not a condition. You can have a Cibulkova in a slam semi one day against her and you and Caro know what she has to do against her. As well as she beat her this AO, comfortably in two sets, she can beat her playing that patiently (or passively if you want) again in a slam semi.

Then there can be a player in the final who might not be as dominant as Clijsters or Serena, or has a bad day. She again can only play her game, which will make her opponent self-destruct.

Remember that Caro´s tactic is winning her loads of matches. Some days there are players better on that day than her. But she still has a chance of winning a slam playing like this.

Betten
Jan 28th, 2011, 10:13 AM
Meanwhile, Caroline actually does pretty well mentally. She just doesn't have much of these matches in her own hands.

In all fairness, it isn't that hard to appear mentally strong when you're game is defensive and focused on bringing the ball back into play. On the other hand, an agressive player will find this much harder, since she'll have to make that final shot rather than depend on her opponent's errors.

thegreendestiny
Jan 28th, 2011, 10:39 AM
As long as pushing brings home the bacon, Piotr is :yeah:

Jorn
Jan 28th, 2011, 04:07 PM
As long as pushing brings home the bacon, Piotr is :yeah:
Her dad say she shall not listen to the media crictics. But just play the game she can, and now have earn them millions.

Serenita
Jan 28th, 2011, 04:14 PM
Her problem is she need to win 7 matches, and not meet a hot ball basher. If she meets one she's gonna lose the match. :shrug:

On a positive note at least she's trying to beef up her serve.

Ivanovic2008
Jan 28th, 2011, 04:31 PM
When she not World number 1 anymore moron?

Brena
Jan 28th, 2011, 06:25 PM
Her problem is she need to win 7 matches, and not meet a hot ball basher. If she meets one she's gonna lose the match. :shrug:

On a positive note at least she's trying to beef up her serve.

Not necessarily. She can lose to a quality non-ballbasher just fine. Vera played well at the USO, somehow managed to keep her crazy head, and it was bye-bye WozWoz in 2. JJ in a decent form also beats her in 2.
OTOH, with the consistency she has, she's bound to go deep in the draws thanks to her high ranking (she'll have easy draws as long as she's top4), so she's bound to stay at the top for long even without slams or big titles.

Serenita
Jan 28th, 2011, 06:33 PM
Not necessarily. She can lose to a quality non-ballbasher just fine. Vera played well at the USO, somehow managed to keep her crazy head, and it was bye-bye WozWoz in 2. JJ in a decent form also beats her in 2.
OTOH, with the consistency she has, she's bound to go deep in the draws thanks to her high ranking (she'll have easy draws as long as she's top4), so she's bound to stay at the top for long even without slams or big titles.
Fortunately for her, there are not so many consistent players like Vera in top 50, who can defend like no other. So making it to QF of slam is rather easy for her with this ranking.

Brena
Jan 28th, 2011, 06:36 PM
Fortunately for her, there are not so many consistent players like Vera in top 50, who can defend like no other. So making it to QF of slam is rather easy for her with this ranking.

I know. Others either don't play enough or aren't consistent enough to remove her from the top. So, high ranking -> easy draw -> reaching Qfs or SFs -> staying on top for a long, long time. :awww:

Fuzzylogic
Jan 28th, 2011, 07:47 PM
I've always thought that 85-90% of a player's style is formed when they're still in their teens or early twenties. If Wozniacki isn't aggressive now, I really don't see her being able to transform her game to all out aggressiveness, she can add or improve on the weapons she currently has, but I doubt we'll ever see her as an all out aggressive player.

goldenlox
Jan 28th, 2011, 09:23 PM
Here's an opinion of Caro from someone in the sport -

Head of TA's women's tennis program, Craig Morris, says the tennis community, like any sport, dislikes seeing their superstars fade away. No one liked seeing Martina Navratilova, Steffi Graf, Monica Seles and Jennifer Capriati bow out.
But after a season or two, no one seemed to mind either.
"The tennis community gets accustomed to seeing their superstars and they're always concerned when they start losing or retiring," Morris said.
"Wozniacki is the No 1 player in the world but only 20. So she'll lead that next charge and she'll start to win grand slams through that transition period.
"Now the excitement comes because we want to know not only who this next generation look like, but what style of game will they play? Will it become more like the men's game with the heavy spinning balls like Sam Stosur plays?
"There is a change coming certainly with the older players moving out." Morris said the increased athleticism of players like Kvitova, Petkovic, Wickmayer and Stosur mean the shot-making capabilities will improve as well.
"What champions bring is there own touch on the sport. The tennis community is looking forward to what is coming through in the women's particularly. We're already getting to see with (Novak) Djokovic, (Andy) Murray and even Bernard Tomic what is coming through with the men's."

Corswandt
Jan 28th, 2011, 09:56 PM
Morris said the increased athleticism of players like Kvitova, Petkovic, Wickmayer and Stosur mean the shot-making capabilities will improve as well.

And we're supposed to listen to someone who uses the words "athleticism" and "Kvitova" in the same sentence?

ranfurly
Jan 28th, 2011, 10:01 PM
And we're supposed to listen to someone who uses the words "athleticism" and "Kvitova" in the same sentence?

Yes, much more than douchebag arm chair tennis fans.

LightWarrior
Jan 29th, 2011, 12:10 AM
When she not World number 1 anymore moron?

We're talking about being #1 AND winning slams, "moron" if I may...You sound nice btw.

azinna
Jan 29th, 2011, 12:13 AM
She was good on hard courts in 2003 too. And since when do we measure a player´s improvement by their H2H record against Venus? :shrug: So every player who turns their H2H against Venus is improved, while everyone who has 3 consecutive losses to Venus has got worse.. :worship: great logic....

Sigh. Kim was better in 2005, more decisive about being aggressive on her forehand and in her court-positioning. You know I wouldn't agree with that last sentence (and didn't say that at all). But you made a thin-ice assessment of 2003 Kim's ability to beat Pierce in 2005. Though that sort of conjecture has all sorts of problems, I was willing to respond in kind, by suggesting that Kim's run in 2005 was dependent on beating a post-Wimbledon Venus -- even if it was the '05 version -- and the 2003 Kim wouldn't have been as successful.

Note that the difference between the two Kims does not entail a radical transformation of her style. But an improvement in pace and positional aggression, and a firm decision to go for winners, even when the errors accumulate. That difference is significant, especially when you compare '03 and '09/10/11 Kims. That would be "all" Caro would have to do.

...With the rest I agree, but it´s not a condition. You can have a Cibulkova in a slam semi one day against her and you and Caro know what she has to do against her. As well as she beat her this AO, comfortably in two sets, she can beat her playing that patiently (or passively if you want) again in a slam semi....Remember that Caro´s tactic is winning her loads of matches. Some days there are players better on that day than her. But she still has a chance of winning a slam playing like this.

Well, the issue isn't whether Caro will win loads of matches, reach loads of semis or reach another handful of slam finals. It's that players peak for the slams. And in those seven matches she'll come up against an extremely well-playing opponent, even two, who are in the zone or close to it. So if Caro doesn't continue developing her own aggression, the crucial points and games will likely be taken from her. We can wish for an alternate future. But that's been the story with Caro thus far. And it's been the story of women's tennis for a good long while now.

Mynarco
Jan 29th, 2011, 12:29 AM
I hope the emergence of Caro as #1 without slams at the age of 20 won't encourage younger tennis players copying her pushing tennis, thinking that pushing is a way to the top. One pusher is enough. WTA will be sad enough after all the champions retire one by one, we don't need a buncha Wozniackis mugging up WTA

goldenlox
Jan 29th, 2011, 12:40 AM
I hope the emergence of Caro as #1 without slams at the age of 20 won't encourage younger tennis players copying her pushing tennis, thinking that pushing is a way to the top....
No one gets to #1 without winning a lot of matches. If you watch juniors or 10k's, you'll see all kinds of styles.
The styles you see in the top 10 are because those players win matches, not because of a style. There's plenty of players with whatever style you like who are not in the top 100

Nico_E
Jan 29th, 2011, 01:43 AM
I would like to take back all my bad words about Wozniacki,

i find out that i somehow like her, and miss that she wont be playing

good to see her support Murray also, but in future she will have me as a fan in GS's and her tennis is excellent, just needs to make a few more winners.

she is also hot but i thought that anyway when i didnt like her

sorceress
Jan 29th, 2011, 03:45 AM
Yes, much more than douchebag arm chair tennis fans.

I think that quite a lot of people in here play tennis themselves...

BepaMaria
May 27th, 2011, 02:41 PM
:shrug:

Mr.Sharapova
May 27th, 2011, 02:57 PM
Never. Or probably when everyone starts beating her convincingly as Daniela did today. She was helpless out there. No game at all, waiting for the errors of her opponent. Such a bad thing to have this world number 1.

At least Safina and Jankovic had the game :shrug:.