PDA

View Full Version : Henin Has become So Mentally Fragile.


Noctis
Jan 21st, 2011, 04:13 AM
When it gets tight
her Bh breaks down: her serve goes away. Her fh goes short
No and I don't think it's her elbow.

Her trade mark Bh seems to be her weakness now. She gets better with fh

Temperenka
Jan 21st, 2011, 04:15 AM
She looked like a lost child.

It's surprising she doesn't get more coaching warnings.

tennisphilia
Jan 21st, 2011, 04:18 AM
Svetlana was just the superior player today. I hope Justine bounces back!

Volcana
Jan 21st, 2011, 04:21 AM
When it gets tight .....What happened to your 'typical Kuznetsova choke' thread?

How about starting out admitting you were totally wrong about Kuznetsova?

mdterp01
Jan 21st, 2011, 04:22 AM
Beginning to look like Hingis in her comeback.

Potato
Jan 21st, 2011, 04:23 AM
No matches, no big wins, no confidence :shrug: Same case with many players on the tour.

VishaalMaria
Jan 21st, 2011, 04:24 AM
I think her elbow really did hinder her to be totally honest.

I've never seen her ground game so ineffective at points.

goldenlox
Jan 21st, 2011, 04:25 AM
Justine is not as good as she used to be.
For whatever reasons, Kim came back at the same level, Justine didn't. But maybe she can get back there.

Conor
Jan 21st, 2011, 04:25 AM
She'll get there eventually. Just wait :)

nicidle
Jan 21st, 2011, 04:27 AM
Is it just mental? She seems to have lost her shot-making abilities..
She can do nothing there.

Tennisation
Jan 21st, 2011, 04:28 AM
Justine is not as good as she used to be.
For whatever reasons, Kim came back at the same level, Justine didn't. But maybe she can get back there.Kim came back to the same level because she didn't enhance herself before retirement.

eck
Jan 21st, 2011, 04:29 AM
TS would know wouldn't him, being a big Justine hater and all.

Sailor Vee
Jan 21st, 2011, 04:30 AM
SMH! It's soooo sad!

Polikarpov
Jan 21st, 2011, 04:30 AM
When Kuzzy was choking badly and spraying backhands all over, Justine only needed to keep the ball in play and be more patient. But for some reason, Justine went for too much and ended up dumping everything into the net, even midcourt sitters. Her serve is another glaring weakness for her these days -- serving double faults in the most crucial moments.

Terrible.

How low is she dropping in the rankings? #25-30?

RenaSlam.
Jan 21st, 2011, 04:32 AM
Mentally she isn't the same.

Kim came back refreshed after her hiatus, Justine came back lost.

Volcana
Jan 21st, 2011, 04:32 AM
And of course, the crowd was totally behind the favorite in this match, as usual.

Noctis
Jan 21st, 2011, 04:33 AM
What happened to your 'typical Kuznetsova choke' thread?

How about starting out admitting you were totally wrong about Kuznetsova?

Sorry I dont know what you talk about
and this thread is about Justine

AcesHigh
Jan 21st, 2011, 04:35 AM
Beginning to look like Hingis in her comeback.

Well Hingis had an excuse.. she was gone a LONG time and physically, she could have been in a lot better condition.

Mentally she isn't the same.

Kim came back refreshed after her hiatus, Justine came back lost.

I think a difference is that Kim came back to play with nothing to prove and hopefully just a love for the game and a love for playing. She's happy whether she wins or loses b/c she has different priorities now.

Maybe Henin came back for wrong reasons...

ExXotikal
Jan 21st, 2011, 04:35 AM
Kim came back to the same level because she didn't enhance herself before retirement.

You did not

http://i56.tinypic.com/2po1cg2.gif

Cp6uja
Jan 21st, 2011, 04:35 AM
Mentally???

In hers case problem is so obviously Physical!
That is reason for all hers big problems since start of 2008 (including "retirement"). That is reason why she fire hers medical team after 2010 comeback but still very struggle in all long matches (3-setters) and thats why she finished 2010 season already in june... and that is reason why former defensive GOAT since start of this new season (she played Hopman Cup also) so insist on short points even at medium-fast AO surface and trying to hit winner so early all the time.

She has proven mentality (and technique) of true champion, but hers current body is obviously not the same which she use before.

Volcana
Jan 21st, 2011, 04:37 AM
Sorry I dont know what you talk aboutSad. Pathetic.

ExXotikal
Jan 21st, 2011, 04:38 AM
Maybe Henin came back for wrong reasons...

Eitheir Justine came back cause it was a suspension in disguise for doping, or/and she came back cause she was jealous of Kim's success.

Those who don't agree will stay mad cause I'm sure spot on.

Tennisation
Jan 21st, 2011, 04:38 AM
You did not

http://i56.tinypic.com/2po1cg2.gifGuh I did, snatchin Pierre-Yves' wig

Noctis
Jan 21st, 2011, 04:43 AM
Sad. Pathetic.

I didn't even make a post in that thread till after the match
I am hoping that you didn't think I was the one who made the thread
for your eyes sake

tennisphilia
Jan 21st, 2011, 04:43 AM
Well Hingis had an excuse.. she was gone a LONG time and physically, she could have been in a lot better condition.

Don't compare HINGIS to HENIN. Henin has 7 Grand Slam titles. Only Serena and Venus has a better Grand Slam collection than Henin.

Anyway, Henin is injured right now. SO, no one expected her to do well at the Australian Open.

thrust
Jan 21st, 2011, 04:45 AM
What happened to your 'typical Kuznetsova choke' thread?

How about starting out admitting you were totally wrong about Kuznetsova?

Get real! Justine was, at best, 70 per cent physically. She has not played a tournament in 6 months, still, Sveta nearly blew it.

DemWilliamsGulls
Jan 21st, 2011, 04:50 AM
Mentally she isn't the same.

Kim came back refreshed after her hiatus, Justine came back lost.

Exactly...and now they see what we go through with Venus...just seemed like when they missed the US Open in 2003 and came back, they weren't the same. Serena eventually played herself back into shape and somehow stayed mentally strong. Venus just came back VERY VERY patchy. Good thing for her is that she remembered who she was and was able to win some Wimbledon titles.....question is...can Justine do the same? One thing I do know is that she's not winning the Austrilain 2011 ;)

tennisphilia
Jan 21st, 2011, 04:51 AM
Get real! Justine was, at best, 70 per cent physically. She has not played a tournament in 6 months, still, Sveta nearly blew it.

And, Sveta was playing at 50% her level. C'mmon. Let's admit it. Sveta was the better player today. She won. Besides, Sveta's latest Grand Slam was more recent than Justine's.

tennisphilia
Jan 21st, 2011, 04:52 AM
One thing I do know is that she's not winning the Austrilain 2011 ;)

You're a genius! How did you know?

Frontin
Jan 21st, 2011, 04:56 AM
Don't compare HINGIS to HENIN. Henin has 7 Grand Slam titles. Only Serena and Venus has a better Grand Slam collection than Henin.

Anyway, Henin is injured right now. SO, no one expected her to do well at the Australian Open.

Henin and Venus have both won 7 grand slams :) But I think you meant Venus has Wimbledon. But meh about that lol

DemWilliamsGulls
Jan 21st, 2011, 06:11 AM
You're a genius! How did you know?

Because I'm a genius thats why ;)

eck
Jan 21st, 2011, 06:27 AM
And, Sveta was playing at 50% her level. C'mmon. Let's admit it. Sveta was the better player today. She won. Besides, Sveta's latest Grand Slam was more recent than Justine's.

So what was Sveta's level when she played Justine in the past? 10%?

edificio
Jan 21st, 2011, 07:00 AM
I think her elbow really did hinder her to be totally honest.

I've never seen her ground game so ineffective at points.

I agree. But I also think that, even with Sveta's choking, Sveta was looking to win this thing come hell or high water.

dechygirl
Jan 21st, 2011, 07:39 AM
I agree with these points. Some people do say Henin wass addicted to substances, but I tihnk it's false!

The news reports all state that Myskina was the one to blame, not Henin!

_Cell-chuk
Jan 21st, 2011, 07:55 AM
Justine playing arm is injured. She doesn't trust herself with the shots which makes her vulnerable mentally compared to how she used to play before her retirement.

spartanfan
Jan 21st, 2011, 02:44 PM
Justine playing arm is injured. She doesn't trust herself with the shots which makes her vulnerable mentally compared to how she used to play before her retirement.

It's been 7 months since her arm injury. Will it ever be the same as pre-injury, this isn't good for her.

Claycourter
Jan 21st, 2011, 02:54 PM
I'd like to see you clowns playing with an injured elbow. :zzz: Funny seeing a bunch of dumb armchair analysts in this thread speculating about shit they know nothing about. :sad: :zzz:

Noctis
Jan 21st, 2011, 02:56 PM
I'd like to see you clowns playing with an injured elbow. :zzz: Funny seeing a bunch of dumb armchair analysts in this thread speculating about shit they know nothing about. :sad: :zzz:

http://i.imgur.com/eyiaF.gif

Miss Amor
Jan 21st, 2011, 02:57 PM
I thought that her RG match against Stosur was just a fluke and that she might still be a big match player; but after watching her against Sveta I am not so sure.

ClijstersGOAT
Jan 21st, 2011, 02:58 PM
What happened to your 'typical Kuznetsova choke' thread?

How about starting out admitting you were totally wrong about Kuznetsova?

Kuznetsova DID choke, BADLY at the end. But Henin was even worse.

eck
Jan 21st, 2011, 03:01 PM
Kuznetsova DID choke, BADLY at the end. But Henin was even worse.

Yes. Try as she might to gift Justine the second set, Justine just decided to give Sveta the finger and DF her way to give Sveta the victory. :help:

LUVMIRZA
Jan 21st, 2011, 03:01 PM
Oh for God's shake...she's returning after a long injury break:o give her a break plssss. Justine is a type of player who gets her rhythm & metal strength from matches. She doesnt have the body or mind of a power player.

Serenita
Jan 21st, 2011, 03:07 PM
Oh for God's shake...she's returning after a long injury break:o give her a break plssss. Justine is a type of player who gets her rhythm & metal strength from matches. She doesnt have the body or mind of a power player.

She's very weak mentally and needs reassurance from her box every single point.

debby
Jan 21st, 2011, 03:13 PM
Her elbow injury is the final nail in the coffin.

LUVMIRZA
Jan 21st, 2011, 03:49 PM
She's very weak mentally and needs reassurance from her box every single point.

Justine is a reserved & quiet type of person and she looks at her box for support coz she feels close to them and not to the fans(who are strangers to her). She used to be under circumstances where she's gonna lose the match literally against great players...but she bounces back & wins those matches. That cannot be done by everybody jus by looking at the box. She is very aware of her body size & she is not confidant rite now due to lack of match play. I am sure she'll play much better in RG....Future will tell us.

Moveyourfeet
Jan 21st, 2011, 04:12 PM
You did not

http://i56.tinypic.com/2po1cg2.gif

:haha:

Moveyourfeet
Jan 21st, 2011, 04:20 PM
Mentally???

In hers case problem is so obviously Physical!
That is reason for all hers big problems since start of 2008 (including "retirement"). That is reason why she fire hers medical team after 2010 comeback but still very struggle in all long matches (3-setters) and thats why she finished 2010 season already in june... and that is reason why former defensive GOAT since start of this new season (she played Hopman Cup also) so insist on short points even at medium-fast AO surface and trying to hit winner so early all the time.

She has proven mentality (and technique) of true champion, but hers current body is obviously not the same which she use before.

This is precisely spot on.
Justine was at an amazing physical level in 2007, peaking at the US Open that yar, and I can confidently say she will not reach that level again.

goldenlox
Jan 21st, 2011, 04:21 PM
She is not as mentally tough as 2003-7. Sharapova isnt, Venus isnt.
Its Serena & Kim, and they are winning all the majors except the FO, where Fran & Sveta won the last 2.

goldenboi356
Jan 21st, 2011, 04:27 PM
i think the mentality is still there but she has difficulty channeling that because of worries of injury. people must realize that mind needs body also to function.

sweetpeas
Jan 21st, 2011, 04:30 PM
Kim came back refreshed after her hiatus, Justine came back lost.


Not only that,but Kim finally put together a team that love her not Hewitt.I always felt Kim was more into her man's game then hers.Now Kim has a group of great guys on her side.Plus one that truly loves Kim.I'm happy for Kim.

Moveyourfeet
Jan 21st, 2011, 04:32 PM
i think the mentality is still there but she has difficulty channeling that because of worries of injury. people must realize that mind needs body also to function.

Precisely. There is a lot of emphasis placed on mentality here, but if you've played the game, you know you need your body to be able to execute. Henin has the mentality. I could see it in her face in the 2nd set tb.
The double fault she hit wasn't a choke. She was going for it on the second delivery and taking a risk that would have paid off. In fact all the shots she hit that she made errors she was trying to create and force the issue, she just missed. I believe that physically she just isn't the same and the injury is not allowing her fully execute her game like she knows she can.

It remains to be seen whether she can physically get there. I am doubtful though.

Noctis
Jan 21st, 2011, 04:33 PM
Surely 9 df got to do with Mentally

DefyingGravity
Jan 21st, 2011, 04:36 PM
Precisely. There is a lot of emphasis placed on mentality here, but if you've played the game, you know you need your body to be able to execute. Henin has the mentality. I could see it in her face in the 2nd set tb.
The double fault she hit wasn't a choke. She was going for it on the second delivery and taking a risk that would have paid off. In fact all the shots she hit that she made errors she was trying to create and force the issue, she just missed. I believe that physically she just isn't the same and the injury is not allowing her fully execute her game like she knows she can.

It remains to be seen whether she can physically get there. I am doubtful though.

So when Maria double faults 11 times in a match, it's because her serve sucks...but if Justine DF's 9 times...it's because she can't trust her body. W/e. They BOTH have had terrible tennis injuries, but there's a severe double standard in the two cases.

I'm not insinuating that you said that, because you didn't. But I just noticed that you mentioned that mentality and body performance are key (which I agree).

The Crow
Jan 21st, 2011, 04:42 PM
What happened to your 'typical Kuznetsova choke' thread?

How about starting out admitting you were totally wrong about Kuznetsova?

Kuznetsova did choke. From 5-4 in the second set on (the first game she served for the match) she played much worse than before in that match. The end of the tiebreak was a bit better again.

Justine kept playing like she was playing the whole match. Not good. She couldn't take advantage of Sveta's choke. How she gave her service game away at 5-5 says it all really... So it's not that she is mentally fragile imo, she just couldn't improve her level when it mattered (like she used to). Not sure if that's mentally, physically, of just not enough matchplay...

Serenita
Jan 21st, 2011, 04:57 PM
Justin, whole game is gone. It's not only the FH, but its the Serve, BH, movement.
Normally she would take advantage of choking opponents, but not Justin 2.0 she chokes herself to death. Even her Allez's suck.

Maybe she should try a comeback at singing. :D

ZgiphQhY6SE

LightWarrior
Jan 21st, 2011, 05:06 PM
Her elbow is obviously not healed and looks career-threatening at this point. Hence the DFs, forehand UEs. Hence low confidence. And no "allez!". The end of an era.

ClijstersGOAT
Jan 21st, 2011, 05:27 PM
^
She was DF-ing a lot last year also. The elbow doesn't help, but it's definately not the cause. The only excuse for Justine is that Sveta actually played quite good for 1,5 set (the forehand especially), but the ending was really bad from both. I think I never saw TWO great players play so badly at the same time.

sweetpeas
Jan 21st, 2011, 06:21 PM
Love love Justine video.Its so cute.Go Girl!:wavey::bounce::kiss::cool:

Conor
Jan 21st, 2011, 06:40 PM
Actually, from when Sveta went 6-4 up in the breaker, there after the points were very good, other than Justine's df.

justineheninfan
Jan 21st, 2011, 07:59 PM
I dont know what to make of her anymore. She played pretty well her first two rounds. If she had played the same way as her first couple rounds against Kunzetsova she would have won easily. Kuznetsova's performance was nothing special and in fact mediocre quality tennis at best (even before the choke) but Henin just comes out and looks like 10% the player she used to be some days like yesterday, while other days she looks like she is approaching her old level. It cant all be physical, as her wild flucuations from match to match make no sense. Some of it must be mental too.

goldenlox
Jan 21st, 2011, 08:08 PM
They had matches like this where Sveta was close to winning and got nervous. But like the FO Stosur match, Justine couldn't hold her level when she had the opportunities. She played some great points. But too up & down to win these matches.

Moveyourfeet
Jan 21st, 2011, 08:25 PM
Henin played matches like yesterday even in her peak year 2007. Off the top of my head I remember Stuttgart final against Golovin, where Henin was trying to be uber aggressive off every ball and was catching the tape and Golovin cruised to a 6-2 first set.
But Justine started hitting topspin balls and playing GOAT defense to get herself back in the match and get her timing on the forehand and won the match.

I believe Justine doesn't have the physicality to play that sort of defense anymore and she wants to play every match like USO 07 vs Venus. Not going to happen.

LindsayRulz
Jan 21st, 2011, 08:39 PM
The girl didn't play any event for 6 months, you have to give her a break. :o

She wasn't mentally weak at all when she saved the first three MPs against her, and these were quite tight moments. She's just still rusty and needs time to get her rhythm back.

justineheninfan
Jan 21st, 2011, 08:43 PM
She was playing full time when she did poorly at the French and Wimbledon last year too, and nearly lost to nearly every opponent in Australia. Sorry she just isnt that good anymore. Even her fans need to accept she is a tiny fraction of what she once was.

PLP
Jan 21st, 2011, 08:58 PM
The girl didn't play any event for 6 months, you have to give her a break. :o

She wasn't mentally weak at all when she saved the first three MPs against her, and these were quite tight moments. She's just still rusty and needs time to get her rhythm back.

Yes, she is quite rusty. I think given some time she will find her groove, also her injury is still bothering her.

But I think if you are expecting her to win every match she plays, you are going to be disappointed.

justineheninfan
Jan 21st, 2011, 09:01 PM
She is just a mediocre regular tour player now. I dont think I have seen a player ever so far below their former best before turning 35. The only players she can be expected to beat are weak nobodies. If she plays even a just somewhat competent player who in her prime she would destroy (eg- Kunzetsova, Peer, Wickmayer, Schiavone) put money on her losing the match now. That is how she has fallen from the old Justine. She is even further from her former best than Safina (of course best Justine is light years better than best Safina so she still will be far higher ranked).

The Crow
Jan 21st, 2011, 09:04 PM
She is just a mediocre regular tour player now. I dont think I have seen a player ever so far below their former best before turning 35. The only players she can be expected to beat are weak nobodies. If she plays even a just somewhat competent player who in her prime she would destroy (eg- Kunzetsova, Peer, Wickmayer, Schiavone) put money on her losing the match now. That is how she has fallen from the old Justine. She is even further from her former best than Safina (of course best Justine is light years better than best Safina so she still will be far higher ranked).

Maybe you should change your username?

it-girl
Jan 21st, 2011, 09:07 PM
Justine is not as good as she used to be.
For whatever reasons, Kim came back at the same level, Justine didn't. But maybe she can get back there.This.

azinna
Jan 21st, 2011, 09:07 PM
Mentally she isn't the same.

Kim came back refreshed after her hiatus, Justine came back lost.

...I think a difference is that Kim came back to play with nothing to prove and hopefully just a love for the game and a love for playing. She's happy whether she wins or loses b/c she has different priorities now. Maybe Henin came back for wrong reasons...

I was gong to follow up RenaSlam's post with something similar. Those assertions about coming back to win Wimbledon (and of course be the best) may have amounted to too much pressure too early.

Meanwhile, Clijsters has just written the new textbook on un-retiring in tennis.

justineheninfan
Jan 21st, 2011, 09:08 PM
I am still her fan but I am also a realist. It is foolish to not see the truth. When you continue for such a long period to play to 10-20% of your former level and lose to scrubs in slams you used to be able to beat left handed, especialy in big matches, it is time to just accept you are in that phase of your career.

Gdsimmons
Jan 21st, 2011, 09:37 PM
She clearly is not the same player. I think she just tries way to hard to be aggresive. It just doesn't seem to work for her.

And I am shocked she doesn't get coaching warnings. Every two seconds she looks up there.

n1_and_uh_noone
Jan 21st, 2011, 09:44 PM
Waiting for justinehenin"fan" to come up with the incredibly detailed and incredibly dense post about how Justine was just untalented and overranked because of a vaccuum in the game, that she really won everything she did because superior players choked, that she was a mental midget made to look like a giant because of fellow midgets. Then he would truly have come full circle. :yeah:

Shvedbarilescu
Jan 21st, 2011, 09:58 PM
The thing about mental strength is that it is not so dissimilar to physical strength in that it is something that is not a constant. A player's physical fitness can fluctuate wildly thoughout a player's career and the same can be said for a player's mental strength. A player who is mentally strong at 22 may not necessarily be strong mentally at 28. Likewise a player who is weak mentally at 22 may not necessarily be weak mentally at 28. We all know that a player who works hard on their physical condition will become physically strong. Likewise a player who works hard on their mental strength often with the help of sports psychologists will improve that aspect of their game. Some players will be more naturally strong mentally than others and will need to put less attention into strengthening this aspect of their game but for all mental strength is something that will fluctuate to some degree throughout a players career.

Even players who are labeled weak will often have periods where they are able to overcome those tendencies and win a series of tight and important matches. Likewise a player who has been regarded as mentally strong throughout their career can have period where for whatever reason they become fragile.

For these reasons it is always a mistake to pigeonhole a player by their mental strength in a way that assumes this is an aspect of them that will never change. In some way or another, it will change. Everything changes.

thrust
Jan 21st, 2011, 10:06 PM
She was playing full time when she did poorly at the French and Wimbledon last year too, and nearly lost to nearly every opponent in Australia. Sorry she just isnt that good anymore. Even her fans need to accept she is a tiny fraction of what she once was.

True, she is not at her best, but to say she is a tiny fraction of what she was is extreme and wrong. She will never be as good as she was, at her best but if her elbow regains its full strength she could be a top 5 or 10 player again. With a very limited schedule, she could maintain her health and win another slam or two. Best case scenerio, for sure, but possible.

Apoleb
Jan 21st, 2011, 10:09 PM
Too many "fools" in this thread getting paranoid after 2 weeks from a comeback off a very serious injury. The writing was on the wall if you had seen her play the exhibition. Yes, it was an exhibition, but she was so so so so bad, that it would be foolish to expect her to come back to her winning ways straight off in a GS. Justine now is a different player. I only saw a few points of the match, but I've never seen the forehand so weak. She totally knows where she's at, but the important thing is that she's motivated. New road, new challenges.

Oh, the record might be very biased for Justine, but Kuznetsova game-wise is not a good match up for her. The top spin bothers her. A lot of their matches have gone the distance and Justine had won them purely due to her mental advantages and her determination to pull off victories.

KV
Jan 21st, 2011, 10:11 PM
True, she is not at her best, but to say she is a tiny fraction of what she was is extreme and wrong. She will never be as good as she was, at her best but if her elbow regains its full strength she could be a top 5 or 10 player again. With a very limited schedule, she could maintain her health and win another slam or two. Best case scenerio, for sure, but possible. I'd be more optimistic top 3. I think the bashing on Henin is too harsh, people seem to forget her elbow problems.

Lapaco
Jan 21st, 2011, 10:18 PM
Too many "fools" in this thread getting paranoid after 2 weeks from a comeback off a very serious injury. The writing was on the wall if you had seen her play the exhibition. Yes, it was an exhibition, but she was so so so so bad, that it would be foolish to expect her to come back to her winning ways straight off in a GS. Justine now is a different player. I only saw a few points of the match, but I've never seen the forehand so weak. She totally knows where she's at, but the important thing is that she's motivated. New road, new challenges.

Oh, the record might be very biased for Justine, but Kuznetsova game-wise is not a good match up for her. The top spin bothers her. A lot of their matches have gone the distance and Justine had won them purely due to her mental advantages and her determination to pull off victories.
It's true that she doesn't like to play Kuznetsova, but out of 16 wins only three were three-setters (the two Kuznetsova's wins were both three-setters) and at least 5 were routs.

moby
Jan 21st, 2011, 10:23 PM
It's true that she doesn't like to play Kuznetsova, but out of 16 wins only three were three-setters (the two Kuznetsova's wins were both three-setters) and at least 5 were routs.I just want to add that's she's always had trouble with Kuznetsova on slow courts. Many of her wins on slow courts (clay, or slow hard courts) are in 3 sets or two tough sets. Mid-pace courts usually yield a tight two-set battle with Justine triumphing.

She's never lost to Svetlana on a fast court. Usually she wins those in easy straight sets.

Why is this so? Slower courts give Sveta time to set up her shots. She also mishits less.

Apoleb
Jan 21st, 2011, 10:26 PM
I was gong to follow up RenaSlam's post with something similar. Those assertions about coming back to win Wimbledon (and of course be the best) may have amounted to too much pressure too early.

Meanwhile, Clijsters has just written the new textbook on un-retiring in tennis.

It's probably true that she put too much expectations on herself but I think there are better reasons. Clijsters is overall a much stronger athlete. She's taller, better built, and her game is better suited to her physical abilities than Justine's. Even at her physical peak, Justine's game proved too much for her to handle. She periodically had those energy drains (2006 at 2007), because relative to her built and natural strength, her game takes too much from her. So it's not surprising that Kim's game would hold better in time. And maybe Justine was "aware" of that or probably not consciously when she decided to retire in 2008.

I don't think she should have messed with the forehand when she came back. Too much playing around with her technique, and she just can't afford to do that anymore. Add a terrible injury, a crucial decrease in physical stamina/strength for the demands of her game - and she's where she's at. She still played though in the final of the AO last year - end of second set - the best tennis she's ever played. Up there with the USO 07.

Ryan
Jan 21st, 2011, 10:31 PM
Double faulting in pressure situations is 100% mental, absolutely not physical. That shows a big difference between Henin now, and Henin 2007. Why is it such a horrible thing to say that she'll never be at that level again? It's looking kind of likely that she won't.

n1_and_uh_noone
Jan 21st, 2011, 10:41 PM
Double faulting in pressure situations is 100% mental, absolutely not physical. That shows a big difference between Henin now, and Henin 2007. Why is it such a horrible thing to say that she'll never be at that level again? It's looking kind of likely that she won't.

It is not. What is, however, is calling her washed-up and clamoring for her retirement.

But why am I surprised? After all, just a few days back, a freak loss had everyone baying for Sharapova's blood, and now a decent run at a Slam has them all pacified again.

jrollaneres25
Jan 21st, 2011, 11:08 PM
I don't think she's become mentally fragile. She just needs more matches under her belt. She'll be fine once she's relatively healthy again;)

hingisGOAT
Jan 21st, 2011, 11:16 PM
It took what, four years, and a total body transformation for Henin to go from a solid player to a dominant force. (99-03) I suspect she will have to put in a similar amount of work to reach the top again.

She was struggling w/Kuznetsova's topspin, especially w/the forehand. This suggests to me she still needs to become physically stronger.

Helen Lawson
Jan 21st, 2011, 11:20 PM
I recall Justine used to thrash Sveta with ease, not sure Sveta's game is a bad match up.

Her body has failed her, she cannot train like she used to and it's no wonder she's mentally losing it, she cannot rely on her body and fitness anymore. She's going to fade out now, het comeback brought her to a slam final and a tour title, but that's about it. Sad, but that's how I see it. She had major physical limitations that she's just too old to overcome now, I think we all forget that.

The Dawntreader
Jan 21st, 2011, 11:25 PM
I recall Justine used to thrash Sveta with ease, not sure Sveta's game is a bad match up.

Her body has failed her, she cannot train like she used to and it's no wonder she's mentally losing it, she cannot rely on her body and fitness anymore. She's going to fade out now, het comeback brought her to a slam final and a tour title, but that's about it. Sad, but that's how I see it. She had major physical limitations that she's just too old to overcome now, I think we all forget that.

Too true. I got the feeling that many critics, posters etc just expected her to comeback and slot right back into place, maintaining her high level of conditioning from '07.

The body ages, and the mind with it.

Matt01
Jan 21st, 2011, 11:31 PM
She was playing full time when she did poorly at the French and Wimbledon last year too, and nearly lost to nearly every opponent in Australia. Sorry she just isnt that good anymore. Even her fans need to accept she is a tiny fraction of what she once was.


I remember few days ago you were saying that Justine is the favorite from the top half to reach the final :tape:


Maybe you should change your username?


:rolls:

Matt01
Jan 21st, 2011, 11:33 PM
Too true. I got the feeling that many critics, posters etc just expected her to comeback and slot right back into place, maintaining her high level of conditioning from '07.

The body ages, and the mind with it.


She isn't that old. She also had some bad luck last year with her pinky and her fall in Wimbledon.

n1_and_uh_noone
Jan 21st, 2011, 11:44 PM
I remember few days ago you were saying that Justine is the favorite from the top half to reach the final :tape:

IKR. That troll is so absolutely convinced of anything he throws up that he is blinded to everything else.

Now watch him embark on a crusade to tear her down from the foundations. She won't pass the round of 16 again. Imagining anything else is 'comical, 'laughable', 'foolhardy'.

Lucemferre
Jan 22nd, 2011, 12:09 AM
It's not mental fragilty.She was very good on match points and break points yesterday. Fearlesly saved those mps in the tiebreak with winners but the problem is her serve. It cost her both times vs clijsters last year. Double faulted similar to this match on big points after working hard to save mps.It's usually the serve that leaves you first when you take a break. Clijster's serve breaks down too sometimes but henin's is nowhere near her best.

azinna
Jan 22nd, 2011, 12:10 AM
It's probably true that she put too much expectations on herself but I think there are better reasons. Clijsters is overall a much stronger athlete. She's taller, better built, and her game is better suited to her physical abilities than Justine's. Even at her physical peak, Justine's game proved too much for her to handle. She periodically had those energy drains (2006 at 2007), because relative to her built and natural strength, her game takes too much from her. So it's not surprising that Kim's game would hold better in time. And maybe Justine was "aware" of that or probably not consciously when she decided to retire in 2008.

I don't think she should have messed with the forehand when she came back. Too much playing around with her technique, and she just can't afford to do that anymore. Add a terrible injury, a crucial decrease in physical stamina/strength for the demands of her game - and she's where she's at. She still played though in the final of the AO last year - end of second set - the best tennis she's ever played. Up there with the USO 07.

I agree, except I don't see the above as better reasons; they're inseparable. For instance, the change in technique and game plan seem to come from a new focus on Wimbledon (her admission) as well as a likely awareness of the physical costs of defense (has she admitted this herself?). And the rushed urgency we saw yesterday in her ground-stroking and poor decision-making likely stems from a desire to be aggressive, maintain her dominance over Sveta, and match her performance of last year as well as worries about her physical state and being rusty from a lay-off. And double-faulting at bad times is about feeling the pressure.

Kim, when playing well, is also being more aggressive than before. And she's certainly not been immune to the pressure of big moments. But when she's been able to recover and win big tournaments, it's been because she's recognized that her opponent is feeling more pressure than she. It was striking, yesterday, to watch Justine not recognize that.

Anyway, strategy-wise Justine looks truly confused out there, which couldn't possibly help matters.

Apoleb
Jan 22nd, 2011, 12:18 AM
It was striking, yesterday, to watch Justine not recognize that.

Anyway, strategy-wise Justine looks truly confused out there, which couldn't possibly help matters.

She did though. She mentioned it in her press conference.

I think she has no confidence in her game at the moment, in terms of shot making and physical tenacity, and it reflects in the way she approaches things strategically. Anyway, I guess her decision is to attack and attack, and honestly, I can't fault it much because her movement is not what it used to be. It will take a huge effort to pull it off.

Post-retirement Kim definitely worked out some confidence issues. She built some self-belief. Still, those matches with Henin last year in Brisbane and Miami were totally hilarious. I think she had Henin nightmares that she needed to get over. :lol:

LightWarrior
Jan 22nd, 2011, 12:22 AM
It's usually the serve that leaves you first when you take a break.

Err no. Just ask Serena. ;)

Lucemferre
Jan 22nd, 2011, 12:24 AM
Err no. Just ask Serena. ;)

Err yes. Serena is an exception. Her technique is perfect so it's easier for her.

The Dawntreader
Jan 22nd, 2011, 12:46 AM
She isn't that old. She also had some bad luck last year with her pinky and her fall in Wimbledon.

Relatively speaking, she is old now in the context of tennis. It happens to a lot of players around this age. It's hard to compensate mentally, when the cracks begin to show physically.

She's not 'done' in a final sense, but it's hard to see her recapturing the kind of form she once had, particularly at this stage in her career. The incentive to try and recapture it will probably start to recede too.

goldenlox
Jan 22nd, 2011, 12:56 AM
I dont think its her age. Her game doesn't have the consistency it used to have.
Since she came back, over a year ago, her results dont reflect the skillset she has.

And to me, that is the player's main job, to get the best results they can with their skillset. Justine is making too many unforced errors on key points. Even going back to the 3rd set against Serena in last year's final, she had a chance to really put Serena under pressure. But she made the same loose errors she made late in the Brisbane final, and they still continue to this day.

azinna
Jan 22nd, 2011, 01:06 AM
She did though. She mentioned it in her press conference. I think she has no confidence in her game at the moment, in terms of shot making and physical tenacity, and it reflects in the way she approaches things strategically. Anyway, I guess her decision is to attack and attack, and honestly, I can't fault it much because her movement is not what it used to be. It will take a huge effort to pull it off....

Of course, she could see Sveta was nervous. Which player wouldn't when her opponent serves for the match twice and fails? But as in the case of other players lacking mental clarity, Justine's game showed no recognition of that fact. The defense and steady, medium-risk strokes she needed to snatch that 2nd set would not have sapped her. Nor were they beyond her current form.

Also, I'm not so sure Justine is physically unable to win with her more balanced 2007 game plan (which wasn't that passive to begin with). The injuries are unfortunate, but it isn't yet clear that she couldn't develop the stamina and movement to support her '07 game plan, over a significantly attenuated season, with the aim being to peak for certain slams. That's basically been Kim's strategy. Where exactly is the evidence that Justine couldn't do something equivalent? I don't think she has really tried.

Matt01
Jan 22nd, 2011, 01:51 AM
Relatively speaking, she is old now in the context of tennis.


No, she isn't.

Miranda
Jan 22nd, 2011, 01:57 AM
i think its not her mental that is fragile, its her little body:sad:

i wish her elbrow injury will go soon and gonna play better. Even if she does not win any more title, her achievements are still a lot better than 90% of most players:devil:

mykarma
Jan 22nd, 2011, 02:02 AM
I agree, except I don't see the above as better reasons; they're inseparable. For instance, the change in technique and game plan seem to come from a new focus on Wimbledon (her admission) as well as a likely awareness of the physical costs of defense (has she admitted this herself?). And the rushed urgency we saw yesterday in her ground-stroking and poor decision-making likely stems from a desire to be aggressive, maintain her dominance over Sveta, and match her performance of last year as well as worries about her physical state and being rusty from a lay-off. And double-faulting at bad times is about feeling the pressure.

Kim, when playing well, is also being more aggressive than before. And she's certainly not been immune to the pressure of big moments. But when she's been able to recover and win big tournaments, it's been because she's recognized that her opponent is feeling more pressure than she. It was striking, yesterday, to watch Justine not recognize that.

Anyway, strategy-wise Justine looks truly confused out there, which couldn't possibly help matters.
No problem there because Carlos is still coaching from the players box.

goldenlox
Jan 22nd, 2011, 02:04 AM
i think its not her mental that is fragile, its her little body:sad:

i wish her elbrow injury will go soon and gonna play better. Even if she does not win any more title, her achievements are still a lot better than 90% of most players:devil:Her achievements are better than around 99% She's one of the top 3 of the last 10 years. That's why we want to see her best

Miranda
Jan 22nd, 2011, 02:11 AM
Her achievements are better than around 99% She's one of the top 3 of the last 10 years. That's why we want to see her best

you are right, of course we all want to see her best, but sometimes life is not always perfect. Her days of domination were gone and she is getting a bit older, her body is not as strong as Kim's, so we can't ask for too much:sad:

Lapaco
Jan 22nd, 2011, 08:34 PM
When a great like Henin declines like this, it's sad for tennis, but c'est la vie.

Her peak was short-lived, but boy was it good. I will always remember it as some of the best sport moments I witnessed :worship:

Slutiana
Jan 22nd, 2011, 09:05 PM
It really doesn't help that she's playing a completely different gamestyle to the one that brought her 7 slams. Can't imagine it brings her much confidence in the tight moments. Yes, in her very last slam win she was as aggressive as anyone, but it took practically her whole career to rise to playing that brand of tennis and at that high of a level.

If she wants to win, she has to go back to what she knows. Sadly for her, she seems to have caught the Venus stubborness virus.

Lapaco
Jan 22nd, 2011, 09:26 PM
It really doesn't help that she's playing a completely different gamestyle to the one that brought her 7 slams. Can't imagine it brings her much confidence in the tight moments. Yes, in her very last slam win she was as aggressive as anyone, but it took practically her whole career to rise to playing that brand of tennis and at that high of a level.

If she wants to win, she has to go back to what she knows. Sadly for her, she seems to have caught the Venus stubborness virus.

I don't think she does it on purpose, but out of necessity. She is much slower than before and gets easily outhit due to a terrible lack of depth of her rallying shots.

thrust
Jan 22nd, 2011, 10:06 PM
No, she isn't.

Well, she is close to being 29 YO. Most, especially women in today's game, are just past their tennis prime, at this age. That is not to say that a 29-32 YO female can't play great tennis, but they usually will not do so consistantly. For Justine, who is smaller than most and who was away from the game for 18 months, a great return was bound to be very difficult. Kim, about 1 year younger, bigger and stronger, had a better chance to have the great return that she has. Venus, at 30, is still a great player but not consistantly. She has done rather well the past two years, but she is much bigger and stronger than Justine. I can't think of another player past 28 recently who has won tournaments, never mind Slams.

moby
Jan 22nd, 2011, 11:34 PM
Of course, she could see Sveta was nervous. Which player wouldn't when her opponent serves for the match twice and fails? But as in the case of other players lacking mental clarity, Justine's game showed no recognition of that fact. The defense and steady, medium-risk strokes she needed to snatch that 2nd set would not have sapped her. Nor were they beyond her current form.That's what I thought, but there were a few points late in the second set where Justine recognised Sveta's anxiety and tried to just put that forehand into play. This happened most notably on her own set point. The result was laughable. Even a nervous Sveta had no problem dictating off the sort of weak pushing Justine was throwing up.

I think her forehand is just a blasted stroke at this point. She makes terrible errors into the net when being aggressive with it, but at least she has a shot at a winner. When she's trying to just keep it in play though (yes, not even medium-risk strokes!), it's not significantly more consistent, but it is a very weak shot. She has very poor control of direction and depth with that shot thanks to terrible timing. A couple of her rally forehands didn't even make it to the net. And with her current movement and defence, it's just not good enough.

Tennisstar86
Jan 22nd, 2011, 11:40 PM
She has alwaybe been mentally fragile......She either wins big or loses.....

Tennisstar86
Jan 22nd, 2011, 11:42 PM
Well, she is close to being 29 YO. Most, especially women in today's game, are just past their tennis prime, at this age. That is not to say that a 29-32 YO female can't play great tennis, but they usually will not do so consistantly. For Justine, who is smaller than most and who was away from the game for 18 months, a great return was bound to be very difficult. Kim, about 1 year younger, bigger and stronger, had a better chance to have the great return that she has. Venus, at 30, is still a great player but not consistantly. She has done rather well the past two years, but she is much bigger and stronger than Justine. I can't think of another player past 28 recently who has won tournaments, never mind Slams.

:secret: Schiavone, though you do have an arguement because Justine puts all her weight behind her shot..... the older she gets the harder it will be for her to do that.....as she loses muscle mass......

tommyk75
Jan 22nd, 2011, 11:54 PM
I don't think the issue is with her mind as much as it is with that elbow. Her forehand swing looks different now (she doesn't take the racket back enough, and she has a "slapping" motion instead of a circular one), which is probably due to compensating for her arm pain. I actually think once she's pain-free, she'll be back in the Top 5.

VishaalMaria
Jan 23rd, 2011, 12:03 AM
People love to over analyse things.

I'm happy that Svetlana won but it was obvious to me that Henins elbow isn't 100% healed. Whether it worsened throughout her previous matches, who knows? I've just never seen her dump as many balls as she did into the net.

And I agree with the poster about her forehand.

Svetlana should have won this easier, but her choking nearly put the match at one set all.

Tennisstar86
Jan 23rd, 2011, 12:13 AM
People love to over analyse things.

I'm happy that Svetlana won but it was obvious to me that Henins elbow isn't 100% healed. Whether it worsened throughout her previous matches, who knows? I've just never seen her dump as many balls as she did into the net.

And I agree with the poster about her forehand.

Svetlana should have won this easier, but her choking nearly put the match at one set all.

Yeah, I dont get this all of a sudden shes mentally fragile now... The only player on tour who isnt mentally fragile is Serena...theres a reason she has 13 majors...... Venus and Maria were at one point not mentally fragile but they've both had one two many WTF gave the match away moments in the latter part of their careers. They def. lost the edge...... Henin has always won matches or just gone away though.... nothing new.... She usually either has her shit together or she doesnt... she doesnt find it mid match like that damn Serena does over and over....

Marionated
Jan 23rd, 2011, 12:19 AM
The biggest problem for Justine since her comeback is the whole going for shots that are simply not on style of play.

She needs to remember who she is and how she played to win those seven slams.

goldenlox
Jan 23rd, 2011, 12:35 AM
Most of the tour is fucked in the head. All you have to do is watch Wozniacki opponents implode.
Even if her ultimate goal is to win Wimbledon, all these errors in key moments is a self defeating way of playing.

AcesHigh
Jan 23rd, 2011, 12:53 AM
Whoever says that Henin never finds herself midmatch has obviously never followed her career. She has some VERY very impressive comebacks and the way she just totally caved against Sveta was very uncharacteristic.

Volcana
Jan 23rd, 2011, 12:55 AM
The biggest problem for Justine since her comeback is the whole going for shots that are simply not on style of play.

She needs to remember who she is and how she played to win those seven slams.By her own words, she didn't come back to 'more slams'. She came back to win Wimbledon. And she believes, rightly or wrongly, that she needs to play a certain way to do that.

Far from being mentally fragile, she's actually displaying a mental strength. She's sticking to what she feels she needs to do, and how she feels she needs to play, to attain the goal she's set for herself, regardless of the interim results. This is, in many ways, a finesse player who ONLY came back to see if she could win as a power baseliner.

If she goes back to her old style of play, she has no reason to be on the tour at all. If you believe what she said when she came back, her current style of play, and her persisitence with it, makes total sense.

Marionated
Jan 23rd, 2011, 01:06 AM
By her own words, she didn't come back to 'more slams'. She came back to win Wimbledon. And she believes, rightly or wrongly, that she needs to play a certain way to do that.

Far from being mentally fragile, she's actually displaying a mental strength. She's sticking to what she feels she needs to do, and how she feels she needs to play, to attain the goal she's set for herself, regardless of the interim results. This is, in many ways, a finesse player who ONLY came back to see if she could win as a power baseliner.

If she goes back to her old style of play, she has no reason to be on the tour at all. If you believe what she said when she came back, her current style of play, and her persisitence with it, makes total sense.

But didn't she also say "I will never sacrifice Paris for London"?

hablo
Jan 23rd, 2011, 01:16 AM
She should have stayed retired.

Her decline started right before she retired anyway.

colt13
Jan 23rd, 2011, 02:09 AM
:secret: Schiavone, though you do have an arguement because Justine puts all her weight behind her shot..... the older she gets the harder it will be for her to do that.....as she loses muscle mass......

Schiavone is an anomaly. She is the oldest player left in the draw, but is an obvious late bloomer, unlike most Slam winners. She lost her first 8 tour finals. Schiavone, Pennetta, and Li Na are the only 28 and over left.

Justine is more fragile mentally now because she hasnt had the same success as before, so no belief. Her other problem is the inconsistency. If you look at how on Clijsters was against Safina, or Sharapova for the last two sets against Goerges, they maintained peak level for 2 sets. Justine seems to max out at one, see Clijsters at Wimbledon or Sharapova at the French.

Volcana
Jan 23rd, 2011, 02:15 AM
But didn't she also say "I will never sacrifice Paris for London"?If you spend the whole year preparing for London, you can give 150% when you get to Paris, but you prep isn't there. You play like you train.

justineheninfan
Jan 23rd, 2011, 04:20 AM
She should have stayed retired.

Her decline started right before she retired anyway.

This is sadly true. People forget in early 2008 her level of tennis went way down. I actually thought one of her best performances of the year was her 6-4, 6-0 loss to Sharapova in Australia as funny as that sounds. :lol: Maria just played probably her best match or one of her best matches ever that day, but it was one of the only times that year Henin looked pretty good. Nearly every other match she played that year, and especialy her 6-2, 6-0 loss to Serena in Miami, her losses to Schaivone and Safina, her various 3 setters vs some obscure opponents, even her solid wins, she looked nothing like her 2003-2007 level. Maybe she thought it was a mirage of sorts, but it turns out it wasnt. Sadly she was already past her prime at THAT point, so her return after 2 years off and 2 years older was doomed for failure from the start. In the end I am happy she just made one slam final and gave Serena a decent match. Anything else seems unlikely now.

Chance
Jan 23rd, 2011, 06:17 AM
I think people are expecting Justine to be playing her 2007 level, which i think is unrealistic. Back in the day it took a few years for her to be mentally strong.
I think with more match play,not only will her form return but so will her mental toughness.

BlueTrees
Jan 23rd, 2011, 06:24 AM
Against Kuznetsova she fought hard when she was down (mind you, Svetlana was choking like crazy) but she also made easy bad errors to keep Svetlana in the set when she was trying so hard to throw it away

Tennisstar86
Jan 23rd, 2011, 05:09 PM
Schiavone is an anomaly. She is the oldest player left in the draw, but is an obvious late bloomer, unlike most Slam winners. She lost her first 8 tour finals. Schiavone, Pennetta, and Li Na are the only 28 and over left.

Justine is more fragile mentally now because she hasnt had the same success as before, so no belief. Her other problem is the inconsistency. If you look at how on Clijsters was against Safina, or Sharapova for the last two sets against Goerges, they maintained peak level for 2 sets. Justine seems to max out at one, see Clijsters at Wimbledon or Sharapova at the French.

Regardless if she is an anomaly...the poster said they couldnt think of any slam winner over 28 and it just happened last year.....

This is sadly true. People forget in early 2008 her level of tennis went way down. I actually thought one of her best performances of the year was her 6-4, 6-0 loss to Sharapova in Australia as funny as that sounds. :lol: Maria just played probably her best match or one of her best matches ever that day, but it was one of the only times that year Henin looked pretty good. Nearly every other match she played that year, and especialy her 6-2, 6-0 loss to Serena in Miami, her losses to Schaivone and Safina, her various 3 setters vs some obscure opponents, even her solid wins, she looked nothing like her 2003-2007 level. Maybe she thought it was a mirage of sorts, but it turns out it wasnt. Sadly she was already past her prime at THAT point, so her return after 2 years off and 2 years older was doomed for failure from the start. In the end I am happy she just made one slam final and gave Serena a decent match. Anything else seems unlikely now.

People don't forget....I remember sayin how horrible she looked. Justine looked a mess after her US Open 2007 win until she retired save for 1 match against Sharapova... She just kept winning off the fear" oh this is the #1 player mentality" I dont think people realize how much being #1 gives you a benefit over the others... aside from the cakewalk draws you get...

Volcana
Jan 23rd, 2011, 06:10 PM
I can't think of another player past 28 recently who has won tournaments, never mind Slams.Three of the four slams last year were won by players 28 or older. Venus won a couple tournaments last year too. Elena Dementieva as well.

goldenlox
Jan 23rd, 2011, 08:40 PM
I think people are expecting Justine to be playing her 2007 level, which i think is unrealistic. Back in the day it took a few years for her to be mentally strong.
I think with more match play,not only will her form return but so will her mental toughness.There's a big difference between her 2003-7 form and getting thru the Sveta match.
Sveta was giving her a big window to take that match.

Lapaco
Jan 23rd, 2011, 09:01 PM
Seems like she will play in Doha, so she plans to play more.