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View Full Version : Who is greater? Safina vs Dementieva


Ralph214
Jan 12th, 2011, 05:16 AM
Let the debate begin!

Safina
Highest Ranking: no. 1
Achievements: 3 GS finals (AO '08, FO '08-'09), Silver at 2008 Olympics
Career titles: 12 WTA, 4 ITF

Dementieva
Highest Ranking: no. 3
Achievements: 2 GS finals (FO '04, UsO '04), Gold at 2008 Olympics
Career titles: 16 WTA, 3 ITF

Vartan
Jan 12th, 2011, 05:19 AM
http://i46.tinypic.com/4kcg1z.gif

Josh.
Jan 12th, 2011, 05:19 AM
Safina made the FO final in 08', not 09'.

But to answer question: Dementieva.

Ralph214
Jan 12th, 2011, 05:20 AM
Safina made the FO final in 08', not 09'.

But to answer question: Dementieva.

Whoops, corrected now. Thanks :)

austennis
Jan 12th, 2011, 05:29 AM
Safina made only 1 AO final and 2 RG finals in 08 losing to Ana and 09 losing to kuzy
and the answer is easy Elena D by a lot

jimmy_the_greek
Jan 12th, 2011, 05:31 AM
Dementieva

AcesHigh
Jan 12th, 2011, 05:31 AM
Safina IMHO
She has #1, she has more slam finals, more Premier titles, and she has a doubles slam

Actually it's not even close. Being #1 should make this an easy answer.

Ralph214
Jan 12th, 2011, 05:32 AM
Safina made only 1 AO final and 2 RG finals in 08 losing to Ana and 09 losing to kuzy
and the answer is easy Elena D by a lot

Oh god, I really need some sleep o.o
Corrected.

SELVEN
Jan 12th, 2011, 06:13 AM
Elena by far

Freshi
Jan 12th, 2011, 06:31 AM
the answer is easy: Elena Dementieva

vixter
Jan 12th, 2011, 07:27 AM
Safina IMHO
She has #1, she has more slam finals, more Premier titles, and she has a doubles slam

Actually it's not even close. Being #1 should make this an easy answer.

Excactly, it't not even close. Dementieva by far. :smooch:

BartoliBabes
Jan 12th, 2011, 09:14 AM
Dementieva

AnDrEi.b
Jan 12th, 2011, 09:15 AM
Dementieva

edificio
Jan 12th, 2011, 09:17 AM
Well, I might have said Elena, considering she had such sustained success and Safina was a shooting star, but...the numbers show them much closer than I ever would have thought. Too close, but sustained success could possibly win out.

benbest
Jan 12th, 2011, 09:20 AM
Elena

GoofyDuck
Jan 12th, 2011, 09:24 AM
to all the people that vote Safina... is 2 years of succes better than 10 JECS?!?!?

Elena D by 2 miles IMO

Pops Maellard
Jan 12th, 2011, 10:08 AM
Elena.

A couple more years as a top player and Safina might've clinched it but it kinda seems like her days a top player are all but over. :sad:

Andy.
Jan 12th, 2011, 10:10 AM
Elena's consistancy and longevity at the top puts her ahead in my book.

Potato
Jan 12th, 2011, 10:11 AM
I would rather have OG than #1 :shrug:

redsonja
Jan 12th, 2011, 10:16 AM
A couple more years as a top player and Safina might've clinched it but it kinda seems like her days a top player are all but over. :sad:

Exactly. The numbers are super close, and Dinara's been in more Slam finals and been ranked higher, but even as a huge Dinara fan IMO there's no way 14-15 months of brilliance can compare to nearly a decade of sustained success. :shrug:

King Halep
Jan 12th, 2011, 11:34 AM
Typical well thought out poll involving a player who is only halfway through career.

Mistress of Evil
Jan 12th, 2011, 12:33 PM
Lena :sobbing: But Safina has time to make it otherwise.

brickhousesupporter
Jan 12th, 2011, 12:50 PM
Exactly. The numbers are super close, and Dinara's been in more Slam finals and been ranked higher, but even as a huge Dinara fan IMO there's no way 14-15 months of brilliance can compare to nearly a decade of sustained success. :shrug:
Where......can you point that out to me. Are you talking about hanging around in the top 10?

Ellery
Jan 12th, 2011, 12:51 PM
Dinara.

miffedmax
Jan 12th, 2011, 12:55 PM
What a surprise. I voted for Lena.

MH0861
Jan 12th, 2011, 01:07 PM
Dinara had a great streak in 08-09, but it remains to be seen if she can return to a Top 10 level, let alone the Top 5 standard that Elena had for so long. Elena's consistency was amazing.

Matt01
Jan 12th, 2011, 01:14 PM
to all the people that vote Safina... is 2 years of succes better than 10 JECS?!?!?



When you only reach the semis twice out of these ten times, then yes ;)

Safina reached more Slam finals and got to #1, so she is greater.

homogenius
Jan 12th, 2011, 02:24 PM
Dementieva

Rollo
Jan 12th, 2011, 02:56 PM
When you only reach the semis twice out of these ten times, then yes ;)

Safina reached more Slam finals and got to #1, so she is greater.

Safina got to exactly one more slam final. That's got to be more than balanced out by Dementieva's numerous semis and regular tour events.

Any cachet Safina has from being a faux slamless #1 has got to be more than balanced out by Elena being in the top ten for far longer.

In the end the difference comes down to Dementieva having one thing Safina doesn't-a major title. Dementieva took home the 2008 Olympics Games-beating Safina in the final.

Unless things change (Safina could always win a major) that's the difference between them. I'd say Dementieva by a good margin.

BepaMaria
Jan 12th, 2011, 03:19 PM
Elena duh

justineheninfan
Jan 12th, 2011, 03:33 PM
Dementieva IMO. The Olympic Gold is a bigger title than any Safina has won. Dementieva has an overall stronger slam record despite Safina having 1 more slam final. Dementieva has more titles and tier 1s I am pretty sure. Dementieva had alot more longevity near the top. So Elena obviously.

justineheninfan
Jan 12th, 2011, 03:36 PM
Typical well thought out poll involving a player who is only halfway through career.

The best days of Safina's career have already happened. Which is plainly obvious to 99% of the tennis viewing public. Anything that might happen from here would only make her career look worse if anything.

AcesHigh
Jan 12th, 2011, 03:41 PM
The best days of Safina's career have already happened. Which is plainly obvious to 99% of the tennis viewing public. Anything that might happen from here would only make her career look worse if anything.

She's had one bad year due mostly to injury complications. There is nothing that indicates that she cannot come back.

And I'm not surprised how many people are voting Dementieva.. but I'm also sure they're voting mostly with their hearts and not their heads.

Claycourter
Jan 12th, 2011, 03:44 PM
Elena. Better achievements, more talent, smooth and effortless shotmaking, she'll be remembered as a best player without a major. Safina will be remembered as the worst #1 in history and a blight on WTA tour.

Sammo
Jan 12th, 2011, 03:46 PM
Dementieva is both better and greater

Belmont Lad
Jan 12th, 2011, 03:50 PM
Elena's sustained success over the course of her career gives her the win by a country mile.

miffedmax
Jan 12th, 2011, 04:03 PM
Nobody won more WTA matches from 2000-2010 than one Elena Viatcheslavovna Dementieva. Interestingly, that stat was cited by a number of sportwriters who rated her ahead of Safina, Myskina, Baby Anci, JJ and others when rating the best players of the decade.

Monzanator
Jan 12th, 2011, 04:12 PM
Have to go with Dementieva... :shrug:

Scola
Jan 12th, 2011, 04:14 PM
Elena. Better achievements, more talent, smooth and effortless shotmaking, she'll be remembered as a best player without a major. Safina will be remembered as the worst #1 in history and a blight on WTA tour.


actually this title belongs to Wozniacki

King Halep
Jan 12th, 2011, 04:15 PM
Nobody won more WTA matches from 2000-2010 than one Elena Viatcheslavovna Dementieva. Interestingly, that stat was cited by a number of sportwriters who rated her ahead of Safina, Myskina, Baby Anci, JJ and others when rating the best players of the decade.

She was the only one of those who played the whole decade, the others have a disadvantage

Sund7101
Jan 12th, 2011, 04:15 PM
Elena's consistancy and longevity at the top puts her ahead in my book.

This.

brickhousesupporter
Jan 12th, 2011, 04:16 PM
Nobody won more WTA matches from 2000-2010 than one Elena Viatcheslavovna Dementieva. Interestingly, that stat was cited by a number of sportwriters who rated her ahead of Safina, Myskina, Baby Anci, JJ and others when rating the best players of the decade.
Max,
How about some perspective.......matches/tournament played. That would really show how great that stat is, or if she was just playing losts of tournaments and winning a few matches here and there.

brickhousesupporter
Jan 12th, 2011, 04:17 PM
actually this title belongs to Wozniacki
or Jankovic....take your pic. At least Safina had achieved to slam finals when she became #1.

justineheninfan
Jan 12th, 2011, 04:18 PM
She's had one bad year due mostly to injury complications. There is nothing that indicates that she cannot come back.

And I'm not surprised how many people are voting Dementieva.. but I'm also sure they're voting mostly with their hearts and not their heads.

I dont like either player so it is quite easy for me to be objective. I have gotten annoyed at some of the Dementieva overpraise on this forum and think it is a complete joke she is dominating polls here about best player ever to never win a slam over people like Sukova, Shriver, or even Fernandez. However I would still rather her career than Safina's anyday. You mention Safina being #1 but her legacy will be of one of the most mocked and ridiculed #1s ever so I doubt Dementieva misses much having experienced that. I would rather the Olympic Gold in singles, being a top player for a whole decade or more, having so many strong performances in slams over the years (even with 1 less final), having so many wins over top players including an almost equal head to head with Serena Williams, having over twice the # of career titles (Safina winning a few more minor tournies is possible I guess but she wont ever reach 17 I dont think) than Safina's career. If you feel differently fine, but it isnt wishful thinking on my part as I dont like either player. I would never rather Safina's career than Dementieva's at this point anyway.

If you want to think Safina can come back to significant success, adding onto things at all comparable to what she has already achieved, then fine. Again I disagree, and most others would as well at this point. All that I see indicated is that she will never fully recover from her back injury, that mentally she is a complete mess now, that her game already reached its peak and the whole tour has figured her out, and that she is a non exceptional talent with mechanical strokes and a one dimensional game who overachieved through extremely hard work and determination (which is to be admired). I dont see the slighest bit of indication of her coming back to being a top player in the future.

Here is another way to look at it. Serena, Venus, and Henin worry atleast a bit about playing Elena. They dont worry about playing Safina period, except maybe on clay only (and Venus and Serena only since they arent even that good on it).

Sombrerero loco
Jan 12th, 2011, 04:28 PM
dementieva by far

AcesHigh
Jan 12th, 2011, 04:30 PM
Well you don't really dictate the legacy of a player by how much you worry about playing them.

People keep saying Dementieva was a top player for so long.. that's a little misleading. Dementieva has been a player that has hung around the top 10
Even with a shorter career, Safina almost has as many titles and has more Tier I titles. And it wasn't until recently during this lull we've had that Dementieva has started to make semi's regularly and has entered the top 5. Before 2008, in 9 years of uninterrupted slam play, Dementieva had only made the quarters 6 times in 36 tries.

And it's fine if you think Safina will never return to form, but no one saw her initial run coming either... I wouldnt be surprised to see her dig herself out. The problem is she needs to smart small at minor events and build herself back up. It's silly to think that at the age of 24, Dinara Safina is done.

Anyway, I really don't mind anyone voting Dementieva b/c a long career may be preferred over a short burst of greatness. However, that she is better by miles is somewhat ridiculous.

Smitten
Jan 12th, 2011, 04:34 PM
I dont like either player so it is quite easy for me to be objective. I have gotten annoyed at some of the Dementieva overpraise on this forum and think it is a complete joke she is dominating polls here about best player ever to never win a slam over people like Sukova, Shriver, or even Fernandez. However I would still rather her career than Safina's anyday. You mention Safina being #1 but her legacy will be of one of the most mocked and ridiculed #1s ever so I doubt Dementieva misses much having experienced that. I would rather the Olympic Gold in singles, being a top player for a whole decade or more, having so many strong performances in slams over the years (even with 1 less final), having so many wins over top players including an almost equal head to head with Serena Williams, having over twice the # of career titles (Safina winning a few more minor tournies is possible I guess but she wont ever reach 17 I dont think) than Safina's career. If you feel differently fine, but it isnt wishful thinking on my part as I dont like either player. I would never rather Safina's career than Dementieva's at this point anyway.

If you want to think Safina can come back to significant success, adding onto things at all comparable to what she has already achieved, then fine. Again I disagree, and most others would as well at this point. All that I see indicated is that she will never fully recover from her back injury, that mentally she is a complete mess now, that her game already reached its peak and the whole tour has figured her out, and that she is a non exceptional talent with mechanical strokes and a one dimensional game who overachieved through extremely hard work and determination (which is to be admired). I dont see the slighest bit of indication of her coming back to being a top player in the future.

Here is another way to look at it. Serena, Venus, and Henin worry atleast a bit about playing Elena. They dont worry about playing Safina period, except maybe on clay only (and Venus and Serena only since they arent even that good on it).

Safina was only a legitimate top player for the total span of +/- 1.5 years. RG 2008 - Wimbledon 2009 is what I will give her yet still managed to amass more slam Fs, the world #1 ranking, and more tier I titles than Dementieva. I'm sure, ridicule or not, Dementieva would have taken being world #1 at some point in her career.

Their career W/L record is almost exactly the same. The only argument for Dementieva is consistency/longevity because Safina's best accomplishments trump Dementieva's. The longevity argument is such a double-edged sword to use.

Also some of your points are closer to describing Dementieva than Safina.

mechanical strokes and a one dimensional game

Smitten
Jan 12th, 2011, 04:39 PM
Even with a shorter career, Safina almost has as many titles and has more Tier I titles. And it wasn't until recently during this lull we've had that Dementieva has started to make semi's regularly and has entered the top 5. Before 2008, in 9 years of uninterrupted slam play, Dementieva had only made the quarters 6 times in 36 tries.



So true and must we point out that despite Dementieva being "nearer to the top longer" she had her best results during the 2008-2009 season when she was able to reach the latter stages slams consistently and reach her high rank of #3.

Coincidentally, this is when Safina was at her best too and was posting better results than Elena over this period of time.

From the 2005 US Open until the end of Dementieva's career she never beat a top 10 player in a slam for a full five years.

miffedmax
Jan 12th, 2011, 04:45 PM
Max,
How about some perspective.......matches/tournament played. That would really show how great that stat is, or if she was just playing losts of tournaments and winning a few matches here and there.

Her career record is 68%. Not GOATly, but still pretty good.

brickhousesupporter
Jan 12th, 2011, 04:46 PM
Well you don't really dictate the legacy of a player by how much you worry about playing them.

People keep saying Dementieva was a top player for so long.. that's a little misleading. Dementieva has been a player that has hung around the top 10
Even with a shorter career, Safina almost has as many titles and has more Tier I titles. And it wasn't until recently during this lull we've had that Dementieva has started to make semi's regularly and has entered the top 5. Before 2008, in 9 years of uninterrupted slam play, Dementieva had only made the quarters 6 times in 36 tries.

And it's fine if you think Safina will never return to form, but no one saw her initial run coming either... I wouldnt be surprised to see her dig herself out. The problem is she needs to smart small at minor events and build herself back up. It's silly to think that at the age of 24, Dinara Safina is done.

Anyway, I really don't mind anyone voting Dementieva b/c a long career may be preferred over a short burst of greatness. However, that she is better by miles is somewhat ridiculous.
This

Steff_forever
Jan 12th, 2011, 04:50 PM
has Safina already resigned ???

Smitten
Jan 12th, 2011, 04:51 PM
Her career record is 68%. Not GOATly, but still pretty good.

And Safina's is only .5 below this. Your point?

brickhousesupporter
Jan 12th, 2011, 04:55 PM
For all of Dementieva's careers, she has only had 5 weeks in the top three, whereas Safina has had a small but respectable 88 weeks in the top three. For weeks in the top 5, Dementiva has the slight advantage, but for somone who has been playing for over 10 years, she is not leading by that much.

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=399275&highlight=weeks

miffedmax
Jan 12th, 2011, 06:17 PM
And Safina's is only .5 below this. Your point?

Elena did it for 10 years, and won more matches than anybody else over a 10-year period. She also did a lot of her damage during the much-hyped (around here anyway) '99-'07 period. I wouldn't say Lena is miles better, but yeah, being really good for a long time counts for something.

n1_and_uh_noone
Jan 12th, 2011, 06:45 PM
You mention Safina being #1 but her legacy will be of one of the most mocked and ridiculed #1s ever so I doubt Dementieva misses much having experienced that. I would rather the Olympic Gold in singles, being a top player for a whole decade or more, having so many strong performances in slams over the years (even with 1 less final), having so many wins over top players including an almost equal head to head with Serena Williams, having over twice the # of career titles (Safina winning a few more minor tournies is possible I guess but she wont ever reach 17 I dont think) than Safina's career. If you feel differently fine, but it isnt wishful thinking on my part as I dont like either player. I would never rather Safina's career than Dementieva's at this point anyway.

she is a non exceptional talent with mechanical strokes and a one dimensional game who overachieved through extremely hard work and determination (which is to be admired).

Here is another way to look at it. Serena, Venus, and Henin worry atleast a bit about playing Elena. They dont worry about playing Safina period, except maybe on clay only (and Venus and Serena only since they arent even that good on it).

1. the mocking and ridiculing has happened in the media only. Players rever the top spot because they dream of attaining it all career-long. It is something she should cherish, and something Dementieva could never attain, despite her longevity. I personally would rather have a brief brilliant spell than a long and satisfying but mediocre career.

2. She has never beaten the big guns at Slams and could not capitalize on 2 giveaway opportunities to win a Slam. In fact, I'd argue that she never entered a Slam as a serious threat, just one of those perennial dark horses. While Safina performed abysmally in at least 2 of her finals, she was THE major contender for one of them.

3. Game-wise, there is little to say. Both are one-dimensional and mechanical. Elena was a much better mover and had the more airtight ground game, but Safina was just a more forceful presence on court, and IMO was a bigger threat overall during her brief spell at the top.

If Safina can get back into the top 10 and stay there for 3-4 seasons, I would rate Safina better. Right now, Dementieva gets a slight nod.

Mr.Sharapova
Jan 12th, 2011, 07:16 PM
If the Question is who's achievements would you rather have I would definitely pick Safina :shrug:

Orbis
Jan 12th, 2011, 07:49 PM
Wow, Dementieva with 4x as many votes is just not right. So much for objectivity. It's really close and I would personally give Dementieva a very very slight edge because of the longevity/consistency but this discrepancy is insane considering how close their achievements are :rolleyes:

n1_and_uh_noone
Jan 12th, 2011, 08:13 PM
Wow, Dementieva with 4x as many votes is just not right. So much for objectivity. It's really close and I would personally give Dementieva a very very slight edge because of the longevity/consistency but this discrepancy is insane considering how close their achievements are :rolleyes:

IKR. It is just like how everybody sympathises with Dementieva for her awful serve for most of her career, when it was clearly what cost her the ultimate prizes, but they ridicule Safina for double-faulting so much and collapsing in the Slam finals. Guess it has something to do with Dementieva just being more likeable.

Smitten
Jan 12th, 2011, 08:15 PM
Yes it is true that Dementieva gets a lot of sentimental favoritism for being a perennial loser her whole career. I don't understand it either.

Bobisa
Jan 12th, 2011, 08:17 PM
Lena :kiss:

Ferg
Jan 12th, 2011, 08:20 PM
Safina :shrug:


Elena's popularity will always ensure she wins these things.

Alejandrawrrr
Jan 12th, 2011, 08:34 PM
I like Safina, but Elena wins this. Had Safina managed a slam win in any of those three finals(Well 09 AO was just not happening,) There would be no discussion. As it stands, however, She has less singles titles, and one silver medal to Elena's Gold. Plus Elena managed years upon years in the upper ranks, whereas Dina's just been struggling. Dina may have had #1, but when was the last time Lena was ranked in the sixties?

brickhousesupporter
Jan 12th, 2011, 08:39 PM
Safina :shrug:


Elena's popularity will always ensure she wins these things.
Not true, she almost lost the bangs poll, even with max stacking the deck in her favor. If I remember correctly, the margin with which she won would have been withing the margin of error.

Nicolás89
Jan 12th, 2011, 08:41 PM
Safina for me.

Matt01
Jan 12th, 2011, 09:42 PM
Safina got to exactly one more slam final. That's got to be more than balanced out by Dementieva's numerous semis and regular tour events.

Any cachet Safina has from being a faux slamless #1 has got to be more than balanced out by Elena being in the top ten for far longer.

In the end the difference comes down to Dementieva having one thing Safina doesn't-a major title. Dementieva took home the 2008 Olympics Games-beating Safina in the final.

Unless things change (Safina could always win a major) that's the difference between them. I'd say Dementieva by a good margin.


A Slam final is not worth less than an Olympic title in my book.
And Safina's #1 ranking is more important than a few more Slam semis of Dementieva, so Safina > Dementieva.

miffedmax
Jan 12th, 2011, 10:42 PM
Not true, she almost lost the bangs poll, even with max stacking the deck in her favor. If I remember correctly, the margin with which she won would have been withing the margin of error.

She stormed to a crushing victory, sweeping all before her.

justineheninfan
Jan 12th, 2011, 11:18 PM
Yes it is true that Dementieva gets a lot of sentimental favoritism for being a perennial loser her whole career. I don't understand it either.

Better than being a perennial loser for just a year and half and a perennial tour regular journeywomen the rest of your career (Safina).

justineheninfan
Jan 12th, 2011, 11:23 PM
Anyway, I really don't mind anyone voting Dementieva b/c a long career may be preferred over a short burst of greatness.

If Safina actually had a short burst of greatness I would see your point. However I dont think either Safina or Dementieva had any true burst of greatness ever. I dont consider a year like Safina's 2009- reaching 2 slam finals while riding a cakewalk draw before getting humiliated by Serena in one, and getting only 6 games off a marginal champion like Kuznetsova in the other, and getting to a ridiculed and disrespected #1 rank for awhile by virtue of those bad slam final losses and a few bigger non-slam clay titles, before losing it at years end with a slew of losses to people outside the top 100, as a burst of greatness. I would call it a burst of very good play, not great, and Dementieva has had about 3 bursts of very good play like that in her career.

If Safina had actually won a slam, had performed admirably in most of her big matches win or loss, had actually beaten some top players on a surface other than clay, had won atleast one of the bigger non slam events on hard courts, and had ended the year decently, I could see it called a burst of greatness, but as it is definitely not.

Cp6uja
Jan 12th, 2011, 11:29 PM
Under 5% vote so far Too close to call which is IMO most correct answer :tape:

BTW OP is pretty useless and if someone want to open new thread or poll about something, why is so hard to make some research about subject (longer than 3 minutes)???
Let the debate begin!

Safina
Highest Ranking: no. 1
Achievements: 3 GS finals (AO '08, FO '08-'09), Silver at 2008 Olympics
Career titles: 12 WTA, 4 ITF

Dementieva
Highest Ranking: no. 3
Achievements: 2 GS finals (FO '04, UsO '04), Gold at 2008 Olympics
Career titles: 16 WTA, 3 ITFTalking about OG medals, together with Beijing Gold, Dementieva also achieve OG silver medal in past (Sydney 2000). Also, what is importance of useless fact how many challengers two players won when we compare two elite WTA players? But on other hand information how many of player career titles belong to tier-I level will be very helpful in this discussion: Dinara won 5 titles of T1 level, and Elena won 3. Number of GS SF and tier-1 finals is also relevant: Safina 5xGS-SF (reach 3xF) and 8 tier-I level finals (won 5), where Dementieva reach 9xGS-SF (2xF) and 10 tier-I level finals (won 3). H2H facts are also interesting when we compare two players (in this case Elena lead 6-5)...

For me they are pretty close ATM, which means that in next 5 years Safina has good opportunity to make clean difference.

Matt01
Jan 12th, 2011, 11:31 PM
If Safina had actually won a slam, had performed admirably in most of her big matches win or loss, had actually beaten some top players on a surface other than clay, had won atleast one of the bigger non slam events on hard courts, and had ended the year decently, I could see it called a burst of greatness, but as it is definitely not.


Canadian Open?

goldenlox
Jan 12th, 2011, 11:39 PM
Safina was on the tour for a few years before Berlin 2008, which is when she started playing like a potential #1. Then she had the back problems only a year later, summer of 2009.
So 3 slam finals & Olympic silver, but all that was in 12 months. FO 08- FO 09.

Lena was a solid top 10 player for a decade.
If Dinara never had the back problems, I think she would still be top 2 right now, but she she had the problems and her comeback is proceeding very slowly and unevenly.

MakarovaFan
Jan 12th, 2011, 11:43 PM
Safina made the FO final in 08', not 09'.

But to answer question: Dementieva.
Umm she made the Finals BOTH years:rolleyes:

MakarovaFan
Jan 12th, 2011, 11:46 PM
Safina got to exactly one more slam final. That's got to be more than balanced out by Dementieva's numerous semis and regular tour events.

Any cachet Safina has from being a faux slamless #1 has got to be more than balanced out by Elena being in the top ten for far longer.

In the end the difference comes down to Dementieva having one thing Safina doesn't-a major title. Dementieva took home the 2008 Olympics Games-beating Safina in the final.

Unless things change (Safina could always win a major) that's the difference between them. I'd say Dementieva by a good margin.
Safina also has a few other Semis(USO 08,Wimby 09) sooooo....and considering the general consensus on the board is slams mean more than anything,then im gonna nudge the favor to Dinara(plus she is still active so technically she has the potential to surpass Elena's longeivity)

MakarovaFan
Jan 12th, 2011, 11:56 PM
Also to note Safina basically achieved/matched Elena's 10 year career,all in the span of 1.5 years!!!........

goldenlox
Jan 12th, 2011, 11:58 PM
She didn't match Elena's consistency. She had a very good 15 months. Which included some losses to Lena, like the Gold medal match.

brickhousesupporter
Jan 12th, 2011, 11:59 PM
Also to note Safina basically achieved/matched Elena's 10 year career,all in the span of 1.5 years!!!........
I did not want to say it, but this......

DragonFlame
Jan 13th, 2011, 12:01 AM
Safina has every oppertunity to pass elena in the next years and is very close behind. I'm saying behind because elena's gold medal really makes the difference here IMO.

Slutati
Jan 13th, 2011, 12:07 AM
Elena obviously, easily, clearly, definitely, absolutely, no doubt etc etc. :inlove:

Slutati
Jan 13th, 2011, 12:08 AM
I just checked the top 60 rankings...who is this Safina you speak of? :confused:

justineheninfan
Jan 13th, 2011, 12:13 AM
Canadian Open?

I am talking about her 2009 year which was obviously by far her best ever and the one in which she reached her much maligned #1 ranking for awhile. She did not win the Canadian Open or any of the more important non slam hard court events in 2009. I could speak of her 2008 but her 2008 was obviously overall even less "great" than her 2009.

swissmr
Jan 13th, 2011, 12:16 AM
To be honest, I think if Elena hadn't recently retired and didn't have everyone missing her, this poll would be a lot closer.

Matt01
Jan 13th, 2011, 12:19 AM
I am talking about her 2009 year which was obviously by far her best ever and the one in which she reached her much maligned #1 ranking for awhile. She did not win the Canadian Open or any of the more important non slam hard court events in 2009. I could speak of her 2008 but her 2008 was obviously overall even less "great" than her 2009.


She reached the #1 ranking in 2009 because (also) of her good results in 2008. And in 2009 she had good results on non-clay events, too. You're splitting hairs here.

Matt01
Jan 13th, 2011, 12:20 AM
I just checked the top 60 rankings...who is this Safina you speak of? :confused:


At least Safina is still on the rankings (somewhere); Dementieva on the other hand :p :lol:

Pops Maellard
Jan 13th, 2011, 12:22 AM
In the end I chose Elena because at least she has the gold medal, and she had to beat Serena to get it. Safina failed epically on the big stage every time.

Lena would've had a chance in the '04 USO final had she not been injured, but I guess we'd never know. :shrug:

miffedmax
Jan 13th, 2011, 12:24 AM
At least Safina is still on the rankings (somewhere); Dementieva on the other hand :p :lol:

is still in the Top 10, actually.

Slutati
Jan 13th, 2011, 12:26 AM
At least Safina is still on the rankings (somewhere); Dementieva on the other hand :p :lol:
Number 9 bb :kiss: Safina is ranked lower than retired players :sad:

Matt01
Jan 13th, 2011, 12:28 AM
is still in the Top 10, actually.


Then stupid WTA forgot to take her out :rolleyes: ;)

goldenlox
Jan 13th, 2011, 12:34 AM
Even in that 15 months when Dinara was very good, was she playing better than Lena's Wimbledon SF against Serena? Or Olympics against Serena?

A lot of times the difference between a slam final & SF is that Lena was in Serena's half in the 2009 AO, & Dinara played Vera in the other half. Another of Dinara's slam SF wins was against Cibulkova.

I'm not saying Dinara wasn't very good, she was. But Lena was around that good for 10 years.

kfh_9118
Jan 13th, 2011, 12:36 AM
I am actually quite surprised with the vote results.
I thought Dinara would have led the voting by miles.

I am a big Elena fan, but for me Dinara still has a better career, for getting to #1 and 3 GS finals, not to mention Elena has retired and Dinara hasn't.
For me Elena is a more talented player, too bad she's just an underachiever in her tennis career :sad:

duhcity
Jan 13th, 2011, 12:49 AM
Where......can you point that out to me. Are you talking about hanging around in the top 10?

Kind of have to agree. While a decade of consistent top 10 play is impressive, that stat doesn't scream great.
For now, it's still Lena D simply because of the gold medal, but a few more deep slam runs and Premier titles for Dinara (which is very possible) would trump the medal

goldenlox
Jan 13th, 2011, 01:04 AM
Lena is about the same age as Kim, Justine, Venus & Serena.
That's a reason she didn't get to #1.
Dinara took #1 in between Jankovic, 2008 YE #1, & Wozniacki, 2010 YE #1, when a younger player who plays a lot of good tennis & who stayed healthy had a great chance to be #1.

AcesHigh
Jan 13th, 2011, 01:09 AM
Lena is about the same age as Kim, Justine, Venus & Serena.
That's a reason she didn't get to #1.
Dinara took #1 in between Jankovic, 2008 YE #1, & Wozniacki, 2010 YE #1, when a younger player who plays a lot of good tennis & who stayed healthy had a great chance to be #1.

I think you're wrong. Elena had her best years at the same time Safina was #1

goldenlox
Jan 13th, 2011, 01:16 AM
Lena had a good year in 2004 too. Plenty of good years. 2000 she was in the USO SF & Olympic Gold medal match.

AcesHigh
Jan 13th, 2011, 01:20 AM
Lena had a good year in 2004 too. Plenty of good years.


In 2004 Elena lost in the 1st round of both AO and Wimbledon. She had 1 title and her record was 39-23.

In 2008 and 2009, she was ranked higher, had more titles, won her gold medal and reached semi's in half the slams she played. 2008 and 2009 were also the only times she went over 50 wins.

Your argument doesn't hold up.

EDIT: you bring up 2000 but she didn't finish in the top 10 that year and she didn't win a single title.

goldenlox
Jan 13th, 2011, 01:24 AM
2004 she was in the finals of USO, FO, Miami, Moscow, SF of LA, SD, NH, Zurich.
And she was beating Venus, Lindsay, Amelie, Jennifer, Jankovic, Sveta, Vera, among others.

Marc23
Jan 13th, 2011, 02:34 AM
Elena,of course!

Roookie
Jan 13th, 2011, 02:46 AM
I want to go for Lena...but the thing is Dinara doesn't make her look any good, does she? :lol:. Safina has that extra slam final, she played terrible in all three but so did Elena in hers. Then there's the number of titles. Dementieva leads but for a player who was for so long in the top 10 its actually pretty low. I couldn't care less for the Gold Medel TBH.

justineheninfan
Jan 13th, 2011, 03:03 AM
I think you're wrong. Elena had her best years at the same time Safina was #1

So that just shows the womens field the last 2 years (the period the Safinas of the World took turns at #1 of course) has become so weak that aging players past their physical primes like Elena somehow have their "best results" far past their actual best tennis. Really puts things into perspective even more. Just imagine if Elena were in her physical prime the last 2 years.

I dont usually like to come down so hard on a player but this topic is inviting discussion on these two players, and I think some of you need a reality check on Safina. This is a girl who less than a year after reaching #1 is owned by Kimiko Date, a 40 year old former World #6 who is 14 years past her peak. During her #1 year (though she still failed to end it at #1 despite Serena seemingly doing everything she could from non slam WDs, from non slam tanks, from layoffs, to try and give it to her) she loses slam finals 6-0, 6-3, slam semis 6-1, 6-0, and loses to various people outside the top 100 including at the U.S Open. So Safina is a good player for the regular tour but she is an absolutely horrible #1, by far the worst ever, regardless of her 3 slam finals. She is even a horrible top 10 player really. When people look back at this era and talk about how bad it is she is one of the first people who will come up, sorry to any Safina fans I might offend, but that is the truth.

Dementieva who I btw am anything but a fan of is just the opposite. People who want to defend this era in womens tennis would point out that Dementieva who is many peoples choice as the best player to not win a slam (I totally disagree with that btw, but still many do think that) played in this era. That is actually one of the few things that could make this era look half respectable to the critics.

On that note is Safina ever brought up as a candidate for best ever (not just active) to never win a slam? No. Dementieva is brought up as a candidate for best ever to not win a slam and gets alot of support, while Safina is only brought up on the topic of worst ever #1. That already says it all.

justineheninfan
Jan 13th, 2011, 03:20 AM
Even in that 15 months when Dinara was very good, was she playing better than Lena's Wimbledon SF against Serena? Or Olympics against Serena?

Exactly. Can Safina play tennis to that level ever even while she was ranked #1? No.

A lot of times the difference between a slam final & SF is that Lena was in Serena's half in the 2009 AO, & Dinara played Vera in the other half. Another of Dinara's slam SF wins was against Cibulkova.

Exactly as well. This whole 1 more slam final is a big thing is silly when you look at it in more detail. Dementieva loses to Serena in a respectable semifinal match at the 2009 Australian Open, and Safina beats Zvonareva when she wasnt that good yet and then gets drubbed badly by Serena. Yet Safina is credited for an extra slam final = supposably better. Please, the only reason Safina was in the final and not Dementieva was one was playing Serena in the semis (who no way in hell Safina was beating in the semis obviously) while Safina was playing Vera.

Dementieva has beaten Capriati on hard courts to make a slam final, and has lost slam semis over the years to Davenport, Venus, Serena twice, and Pierce. One of the Serena losses in a classic, all of the matches having atleast 1 tiebreak set at worst. Safina has only been in 5 slam semis. She beat Cibulkova and Zvonareva to make 2 of her 3 finals. She lost bagel and breadstick to Venus while ranked #1 in one and another bad drubbing to Serena in another. Safina had one good semifinal win to make a final over Kuznetsova and Dementieva an easy semifinal opponent in Saurez to make 1 of her 2 slam finals but beyond that.


I'm not saying Dinara wasn't very good, she was. But Lena was around that good for 10 years.

Exactly. Rankings aside (which are nothing but a silly joke these days anyway) Safina was only at best about equal to Dementieva in 2008 and 2009, and was way worse than Dementieva every other year they were on tour together.

n1_and_uh_noone
Jan 13th, 2011, 03:42 AM
Anyone saying Elena was a better player before 2008 is nuts. No way was she ever winning a Slam with her pre-'08 serve. At her peak, Safina was a far bigger Slam contender than Elena ever was. And all the 'classic' losses to other players and multiple-Slam winners only prove Elena never won when it mattered. Her good H2H against Serena was entirely due to meaningless wins in matches Serena barely woke up for.

The 2nd Law
Jan 13th, 2011, 05:37 AM
Agreed with just about everyone who argued for Dinara, but I still think it's too close right now. Elena gets too many sympathy votes though.

Pops Maellard
Jan 13th, 2011, 06:00 AM
Anyone saying Elena was a better player before 2008 is nuts. No way was she ever winning a Slam with her pre-'08 serve. At her peak, Safina was a far bigger Slam contender than Elena ever was. And all the 'classic' losses to other players and multiple-Slam winners only prove Elena never won when it mattered. Her good H2H against Serena was entirely due to meaningless wins in matches Serena barely woke up for.

Safina's serve was at times just as bad as pre-2008 Dementieva. :lol:

Need I remind you of her 17 DFs in the Olympic final, or the Wimbledon '09 QF?

Caralenko
Jan 13th, 2011, 06:03 AM
So that just shows the womens field the last 2 years (the period the Safinas of the World took turns at #1 of course) has become so weak that aging players past their physical primes like Elena somehow have their "best results" far past their actual best tennis. Really puts things into perspective even more. Just imagine if Elena were in her physical prime the last 2 years.

I dont usually like to come down so hard on a player but this topic is inviting discussion on these two players, and I think some of you need a reality check on Safina. This is a girl who less than a year after reaching #1 is owned by Kimiko Date, a 40 year old former World #6 who is 14 years past her peak. During her #1 year (though she still failed to end it at #1 despite Serena seemingly doing everything she could from non slam WDs, from non slam tanks, from layoffs, to try and give it to her) she loses slam finals 6-0, 6-3, slam semis 6-1, 6-0, and loses to various people outside the top 100 including at the U.S Open. So Safina is a good player for the regular tour but she is an absolutely horrible #1, by far the worst ever, regardless of her 3 slam finals. She is even a horrible top 10 player really. When people look back at this era and talk about how bad it is she is one of the first people who will come up, sorry to any Safina fans I might offend, but that is the truth.

Dementieva who I btw am anything but a fan of is just the opposite. People who want to defend this era in womens tennis would point out that Dementieva who is many peoples choice as the best player to not win a slam (I totally disagree with that btw, but still many do think that) played in this era. That is actually one of the few things that could make this era look half respectable to the critics.

On that note is Safina ever brought up as a candidate for best ever (not just active) to never win a slam? No. Dementieva is brought up as a candidate for best ever to not win a slam and gets alot of support, while Safina is only brought up on the topic of worst ever #1. That already says it all.


I sometimes wonder if you've ever watched anu of these girls play tennis. Probably haven't sat through a match since 1998, right? Your judgements are so skewed, not just on this topic but everywhere I've seen you post.

homogenius
Jan 13th, 2011, 09:10 AM
Anyone saying Elena was a better player before 2008 is nuts. No way was she ever winning a Slam with her pre-'08 serve. At her peak, Safina was a far bigger Slam contender than Elena ever was. And all the 'classic' losses to other players and multiple-Slam winners only prove Elena never won when it mattered. Her good H2H against Serena was entirely due to meaningless wins in matches Serena barely woke up for.

Based on what ? All the times she got trashed in SF/finals of slams ?

Safina had a very good run in 08/09 but nearly nothing before or after that.Lena was never a top3 player but she was one of the most consistent top player of the last decade (WAY more years in top10 than Safina, more titles and finals, more top10 wins etc...).And she did beat Safina to get the Gold medal in Bejing.

Lena's consistency and longevity at the top >>>Safina's run (would be different had Dinara actually managed to win something big and/or beat other top players more often) imo.

brickhousesupporter
Jan 13th, 2011, 11:15 AM
Based on what ? All the times she got trashed in SF/finals of slams ?

Safina had a very good run in 08/09 but nearly nothing before or after that.Lena was never a top3 player but she was one of the most consistent top player of the last decade (WAY more years in top10 than Safina, more titles and finals, more top10 wins etc...).And she did beat Safina to get the Gold medal in Bejing.

Lena's consistency and longevity at the top >>>Safina's run (would be different had Dinara actually managed to win something big and/or beat other top players more often) imo.

1. Lena was number 3 for 5 weeks.

2. People need to realize, when they say this, it is actually hurting Lena. For all her consistancy, Safina achieved almost everything Lena earned in a decade, within 15 months.

samsam4087
Jan 13th, 2011, 11:54 AM
Elena Dementieva

The 2nd Law
Jan 13th, 2011, 12:12 PM
1. Lena was number 3 for 5 weeks.

2. People need to realize, when they say this, it is actually hurting Lena. For all her consistancy, Safina achieved almost everything Lena earned in a decade, within 15 months.

I have to agree. If Dinara can overcome this injury fully and add even a little more to her accomplishments, in my mind there would be no doubt as to who is greater.

homogenius
Jan 13th, 2011, 01:41 PM
1. Lena was number 3 for 5 weeks.

2. People need to realize, when they say this, it is actually hurting Lena. For all her consistancy, Safina achieved almost everything Lena earned in a decade, within 15 months.

I meant she wasn't a top3 kind of player on a consistant basis (not that she never achieved it).She was more the top5/10 type of player but doing it for almost your entire career is a big achievement.Who else managed to do that in the last 10 years ?

And I disagree on Safina's achievements.A career is not only your 2 or 3 best moments in my view.As I said, Dinara had a great run for 1,5 year but she couldn't sustain it and it cost her her back.For me what lena did in her career is more impressive than Dinara's resume.
Also, it's not a question of being sentimental cause she recently retired but I wish some people would show more respect when talking about Lena.She had weaknesses and failed to win the slam(s) she should have win but she wasn't a journeywoman or a loser like some are trying to induce in this thread.

TennisFan66
Jan 13th, 2011, 02:00 PM
For me, being #1 > #3 and 3 slam finals > 2 slam finals Vs Olympic gold > silver... Safina by quite a margin.

n1_and_uh_noone
Jan 13th, 2011, 03:26 PM
And I disagree on Safina's achievements.A career is not only your 2 or 3 best moments in my view.As I said, Dinara had a great run for 1,5 year but she couldn't sustain it and it cost her her back.For me what lena did in her career is more impressive than Dinara's resume.
Also, it's not a question of being sentimental cause she recently retired but I wish some people would show more respect when talking about Lena.She had weaknesses and failed to win the slam(s) she should have win but she wasn't a journeywoman or a loser like some are trying to induce in this thread.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Elena's career; she achieved exactly what she should have. I don't think she was good enough to win a Slam, no matter how well she played or fought, her serve always got in the way. There have been surprise winners recently, but they all performed their best on the big stage when they needed to, she couldn't.

However, there are certain milestones every player aims for: no.1, a Slam. Despite her consistency, Elena never put together enough good results to make that final push to no. 1, being outranked by Sharapova, Petrova, Myskina, Zvonareva, Safina i.e. 5 fellow-countrywomen from her own generation. Don't delude yourself, she wanted it very badly, as much as a Slam, but she just lacked that little extra (and I do believe all the 5 mentioned rightfully achieved what they did; Petrova maybe I'll make an exception for, she was always hindered by her mental fragility despite having the game to win majors).

I liked her very much, and hoped she could master her serve enough to go all the way at a Slam, but it just wasn't to be.

Wiggly
Jan 13th, 2011, 03:45 PM
Elena.

I'ld rather have an Olympic Gold that anything else Dinara has achieved.

TennisMindCamp
Jan 13th, 2011, 04:16 PM
I would say Safina... just looking at results.

justineheninfan
Jan 13th, 2011, 04:17 PM
Anyone saying Elena was a better player before 2008 is nuts. No way was she ever winning a Slam with her pre-'08 serve.

Tennis wise her peak was 2004-2006. Yeah her serve was worse but her ground game was alot more punishing, her movement was better, her returning was better, basically everything except the serve. Of course her results became better in 2008-2009 since the field sucked alot more by then, the reason even mediocre players like Safina who were lucky enough to peak at that exact time, and who as we see now are interchangeable from top 5 to top 100 did very well. In 2004 she was able to hit players like Capriati and Mauresmo off the court in big matches. She couldnt do that in 2008 and 2009.


At her peak, Safina was a far bigger Slam contender than Elena ever was.

BS. Safina has only shown the ability to get completely destroyed in slam semis or finals. You know if Safina plays Serena in a slam semi or final she has NO chance at all, you could bet your house on Serena winning. Whereas if Dementieva plays Serena in a slam semi or final she atleast has a fighting chance. You can easily say there is no slam she was close to winning given that the final matches she lost she never had a hope of winning in any of them. Granted in a sense Dementieva wasnt that close either but she was still probably closer to winning Wimbledon 2009, Australian Open 2009, U.S Open 2004, than Safina was to winning any slam.

n1_and_uh_noone
Jan 13th, 2011, 04:49 PM
Tennis wise her peak was 2004-2006. Yeah her serve was worse but her ground game was alot more punishing, her movement was better, her returning was better, basically everything except the serve.

All that got her was 2 straight set beatdowns at the hands of 1st time Slam finalists, neither of which she ever threatened to win.


BS. Safina has only shown the ability to get completely destroyed in slam semis or finals. You know if Safina plays Serena in a slam semi or final she has NO chance at all, you could bet your house on Serena winning. Whereas if Dementieva plays Serena in a slam semi or final she atleast has a fighting chance. You can easily say there is no slam she was close to winning given that the final matches she lost she never had a hope of winning in any of them. Granted in a sense Dementieva wasnt that close either but she was still probably closer to winning Wimbledon 2009, Australian Open 2009, U.S Open 2004, than Safina was to winning any slam.

:lol:. Her record against Venus certainly attests to the logic of the former, and clearly a straight-set beating by Serena could have gone either way. Besides, she didn't have that great a record against Safina anyway, although I think she won all the matches on hard: this would be a Slam final, remember?.

Still, for all your assertions Elena was past her prime in 2008-2009, that was the time she came closest to competing with Serena (beat her at the Olympics), and even collected a win over Venus too.

Vincey!
Jan 13th, 2011, 04:51 PM
Dementieva of course, She's been at the top more consistently.

justineheninfan
Jan 13th, 2011, 05:00 PM
All that got her was 2 straight set beatdowns at the hands of 1st time Slam finalists, neither of which she ever threatened to win.

Atleast Dementieva won more games in the 2004 U.S Open final than Safina did in any of her 3 slam finals. Elena need not worry about the most embarassing performances in slam finals, Safina has that title locked up for many years to come.


:lol:. Her record against Venus certainly attests to the logic of the former, and clearly a straight-set beating by Serena could have gone either way.

Elena was still closer to winning the 2009 Australian semi vs Serena than Safina was any of the slam finals or semis she lost (maybe tied with only the 2008 French). And of course we all know Safina would have been a walkover for Dementieva given she turned in her usual pathetic slam final performance in taking only 3 games off Serena in the final (vs the 7 Elena took in the semis).

Dementieva posted a win over Venus later in 2009 so beating an injured and subpar Venus in the 2009 Wimbledon final wouldnt have been impossible, though I still would have picked Venus to win. Still since the final never took place and she had match point on the eventual winner in the semis, it is fair to say she was closer to possibly winning there as well then Safina in any of the slams she made the semis or finals she was in.

All Safina has done is played some finals where the real final was already held in the semis. 2008 French where the real final of Ivanovic-Jankovic had already taken place with the winner moving to the walkover exhibition "final" vs Safina. 2009 Australian Open was the same thing, the real final between Serena and Dementieva in the semis, followed by the final match exhibition vs a poor sorely overmatched Safina. She was never some huge threat for slam titles, certainly not anymore than Elena. The only slam anyone thought she even had a real shot to win was the 2009 French, and even there she got spanked by Kuznetsova in the final even worse than an injured Dementieva lost to Kuznetsova in the 2004 U.S Open, and began crying and throwing a fit during the smackdown.


Besides, she didn't have that great a record against Safina anyway, although I think she won all the matches on hard: this would be a Slam final, remember?.

This would be a slam final remember you say!?! Are you suggesting this is to Safina's benefit. :lol: Safina is the all time queen of big match suckiness, even Elena cant touch her there, and anyway Safina is Elena's bitch on hard courts. Dementieva is 6-5 lifetime vs Safina. However she is 5-0 vs Safina on hard courts and 1-0 on carpet. Safina is 4-0 up on clay and 1-0 on grass. So Safina the all time big match clown is going to win a slam final on hard courts against someone she is 0-5 lifetime against on hard courts. :haha: Funny stuff.


Still, for all your assertions Elena was past her prime in 2008-2009, that was the time she came closest to competing with Serena (beat her at the Olympics), and even collected a win over Venus too.

She played Serena first in 2003-2004 when Serena and Henin were the dominant player in a then stellar womens game. Of course she wasnt going to beat Serena then, the Serena then was so much more powerful, fit, fast, and consistent than the Serena of today. She then had a long gap without playing Serena. When she started playing Serena again from 2007-2010 Serena despite returning to winning slams vs the recent pitiful womens field is now older, slower, more error prone, and most importantly is now half assing all the non major events where (except for the 08 Olympics) all Elena's wins over Serena come. Of course Elena is posting more wins, evne if she is worse (tennis wise), Serena is even moreso compared to her first half 2000s level despite still being the best player of the abysmal field left the last 2-3 years, and Serena now only tries in about 6 events a year. Even so Safina cant even make competitive matches even vs this version of Serena, except on clay.

As for Venus, Elena has 3 wins. 2 of those 3 are in 1999 and 2004.

Matt01
Jan 13th, 2011, 05:34 PM
Atleast Dementieva won more games in the 2004 U.S Open final than Safina did in any of her 3 slam finals. Elena need not worry about the most embarassing performances in slam finals, Safina has that title locked up for many years to come.



Safina's first Slam was hardly embarassing, it was actually a good match. Overall, I'd say Dementieva's Slam final performances weren't much better than Safina's.

n1_and_uh_noone
Jan 13th, 2011, 05:43 PM
Atleast Dementieva won more games in the 2004 U.S Open final than Safina did in any of her 3 slam finals. Elena need not worry about the most embarassing performances in slam finals, Safina has that title locked up for many years to come.

1 and 2 vs Myskina on clay :tape: begs to differ.


Elena was still closer to winning the 2009 Australian semi vs Serena than Safina was any of the slam finals or semis she lost (maybe tied with only the 2008 French). And of course we all know Safina would have been a walkover for Dementieva given she turned in her usual pathetic slam final performance in taking only 3 games off Serena in the final (vs the 7 Elena took in the semis).

BS. Safina has always played her fellow countrywomen hard, and you can bet Dementieva would have found a way to lose that even if Safina served up a nightmare.

The 7 games vs 3 is such a joke. Would you say that FEderer is a clown for taking only 4 games off Rafa in RG 2008 vs 12 taken by GOAT Djokovic in the semis :weirdo: ?


Dementieva posted a win over Venus later in 2009 so beating an injured and subpar Venus in the 2009 Wimbledon final wouldnt have been impossible, though I still would have picked Venus to win. Still since the final never took place and she had match point on the eventual winner in the semis, it is fair to say she was closer to possibly winning there as well then Safina in any of the slams she made the semis or finals she was in.

Conveniently ignoring the 0 and 1 mauling she suffered at Venus' hands immediately after Wimbledon? And :help: at the statement that a semifinal loss is closer to a Slam title than a final spot. Who cares whether it was 8-6 in the 3rd set or 6-0, 6-0? She still lost.


All Safina has done is played some finals where the real final was already held in the semis. 2008 French where the real final of Ivanovic-Jankovic had already taken place with the winner moving to the walkover exhibition "final" vs Safina. 2009 Australian Open was the same thing, the real final between Serena and Dementieva in the semis, followed by the final match exhibition vs a poor sorely overmatched Safina. She was never some huge threat for slam titles, certainly not anymore than Elena. The only slam anyone thought she even had a real shot to win was the 2009 French, and even there she got spanked by Kuznetsova in the final even worse than an injured Dementieva lost to Kuznetsova in the 2004 U.S Open, and began crying and throwing a fit during the smackdown.

Lets leave that out of this. No one wants to be reminded of tearful speeches about how someone cannot serve :) .

And just to remind you, the same injured DEmentieva was also the same one, who, in your own words, hit Mauresmo and Capriati off the court. The only thing that was injured that day (or forever) was her serve.

I feel bad for all these arguments which make it look like I think Elena was a loser. On the contrary, I liked her a lot, just never thought her no. 1 or Slam material.

Alejandrawrrr
Jan 13th, 2011, 05:53 PM
To everyone saying Elena is only winning by such a large amount out of sympathy, I do honestly agree that her overall achievements WERE by a small margin. However, it's a margin that most of the voters agree on. Neither of them have Grand Slam Singles titles, but elena has Olympic Gold in singles. While she also has 4 more titles, the history books will only show that one medal vs Safina's nothing(well, so far.) That's really all there is to it.

And to everyone saying Olympic Gold isn't significant, I'd like to see you say the same thing if YOUR faves won it. If it weren't significant, players like the Williamses and the Belgians wouldn't be working so hard for it, and/or playing Fed Cup(Cuz we know neither WS could give a damn about it otherwise.) I don't think Olympics are as valuable as a Grand Slam title, but it's definitely right under them in importance.

Anabelcroft
Jan 13th, 2011, 05:55 PM
most of us think Dementieva...just look at the poll results!

oomph
Jan 13th, 2011, 06:32 PM
I like how the one actually having reached no. 1 and having more slam finals in a span of two years (which the other one didn't manage in her entire career) is "by far" below Elena.

Fanwanking at it's finest.

justineheninfan
Jan 13th, 2011, 06:41 PM
1 and 2 vs Myskina on clay :tape: begs to differ.

So Dementieva played one horrible slam final. She played atleast reasonable tennis in every other slam final or slam semi she was ever in, and stellar tennis in one of those (2009 Wimbledon). Safina played arguably reasonable tennis in only one slam final and one slam semi she won, horrible tennis in every one of the other 4 slam finals or semis she lost, and mediocre tennis in the other 2 slam semis she won.


BS. Safina has always played her fellow countrywomen hard, and you can bet Dementieva would have found a way to lose that even if Safina served up a nightmare.

ROTFL!! You can bet more on Dementieva finding a way to lose a big match than you can on Safina. You are delusional my friend. There is nobody you can bet more on to lose a big match than Safina, including Dementieva. Add to that Elena's 5-0 head to head with Safina on hard courts (3 of those during Safina's peak) and only someone living in an alterior universe can think Safina would have won that final vs Elena.

We already saw Safina managed to outsuck Elena in the Olympic final which is the biggest match they ever faced head to head, and in a slam final the worst big match player in history Safina would have mucked it up even worse.


The 7 games vs 3 is such a joke. Would you say that FEderer is a clown for taking only 4 games off Rafa in RG 2008 vs 12 taken by GOAT Djokovic in the semis :weirdo: ?

The point is Elena actually played good tennis vs Serena in the semis and it was a pretty good match, and Safina as always in a big match played like a clown in the final vs Serena.

Conveniently ignoring the 0 and 1 mauling she suffered at Venus' hands immediately after Wimbledon?

Atleast she didnt suffer that humiliating scoreline in the Wimbledon semis like the the so called #1 Safina did, which made her the most ridiculed and disrespected #1 player in history at that point.

And :help: at the statement that a semifinal loss is closer to a Slam title than a final spot. Who cares whether it was 8-6 in the 3rd set or 6-0, 6-0? She still lost.

If you lose to the eventual champion after having a match point in the semis yes it is closer to a slam title than getting destroyed in a slam final by the eventual winner. Safina's slam finals are merely exhibitions for the winner after the real finals takes place in the semis anyway like I said. Every slam final Safina was in one knew she was going to lose before the first ball was hit except possibly the 2009 French which she still got her ass kicked in easily anyway (and it is far worse getting drubbed by a marginal champion like Kuznetsova in your 3rd slam final as the World #1, then in your first ever slam final as a top 10 player).

And just to remind you, the same injured DEmentieva was also the same one, who, in your own words, hit Mauresmo and Capriati off the court. The only thing that was injured that day (or forever) was her serve.

Safina's serve is nothing impressive in the least either. Basically both cant serve, both cant volley. The strength of both is their baseline games and Dementieva has the better groundstrokes and light years better movement. So Safina is inferior to Elena in the only thing either do well. And Elena is mentally by far the tougher of the two. How anyone can conclude Safina is the better player is beyond any comprehension.

And an injury tends to get worse when you are on your 7th and 8th sets of tennis in the last 80 hours, than on your 2nd and 3rd. Not to mention the fatigue factor. To anyone who watched the 2004 U.S Open final it is clear Elena suffered from both being injured and fatigued by that point. Yet inspite of it she still gave a more competitive match than Safina did in any of her 3 slam finals.

I feel bad for all these arguments which make it look like I think Elena was a loser. On the contrary, I liked her a lot, just never thought her no. 1 or Slam material.

And do you actually think Dinara Safina is real #1 material or even slam winning material, LOL!

tonybotz
Jan 13th, 2011, 06:46 PM
this isnt even close! what a joke thread - Lena D was SOMEBODY. Safina was a kid sister foot note

Sharapowerr
Jan 13th, 2011, 07:46 PM
Elena, if she would had a better serve in the earlier stages of her career she would have won a lot more.

n1_and_uh_noone
Jan 13th, 2011, 09:04 PM
Safina's serve is nothing impressive in the least either. Basically both cant serve, both cant volley. The strength of both is their baseline games and Dementieva has the better groundstrokes and light years better movement. So Safina is inferior to Elena in the only thing either do well. And Elena is mentally by far the tougher of the two. How anyone can conclude Safina is the better player is beyond any comprehension.

:haha: cool story, bro!

And yes, Elena was the kind of player who could not win a big match on her own terms, she depended greatly on the opponent's form (mostly because of her serve, but also because she didn't have the punch of Serena or Lindsay or Sharapova, or variety. Safina IMO could take a match out of an opponent's hands, her serve used to be a weapon, and her heavy groundstrokes could beat players into submission.

Her injury was a terrible thing to happen, in conjunction with the cruel comments the media and other players made when she was no. 1, making her doubt herself when she should have been ecstatic to achieve something all players dream of. If she gets back to the top 10, I can certainly see her winning an RG down the line.

I just find it sad that getting to no. 1 is considered a curse for Safina when so many failed to do it, better players even.

justineheninfan
Jan 13th, 2011, 11:26 PM
:haha: cool story, bro!


LOL you actually dispute Dementieva being mentally much tougher than Safina. :lol: Safina is the epitome of a headcase. Dementieva is one of the best fighters on tour, but you will continue to milk how she played a really bad slam final against Myskina and never look beyond that. According to you Dementieva did not have the game to win a slam so you cant even bring up her failure to win a slam as a sign of mental weakness by your own logic.


And yes, Elena was the kind of player who could not win a big match on her own terms, she depended greatly on the opponent's form (mostly because of her serve, but also because she didn't have the punch of Serena or Lindsay or Sharapova, or variety. Safina IMO could take a match out of an opponent's hands, her serve used to be a weapon, and her heavy groundstrokes could beat players into submission.

Dementieva hit many more groundstroke winners in that Wimbledon semi with Serena, but unfortunately for her was more than balanced out by all the aces and service winners of Serena. She was over double Serena on forehand winners at one point. Do you have any idea how hard that is to do on a fast surface.

Safina can take the match out of an opponents hands? It depends what kind of opponents you are talking about. She certainly could never take the match out of the hands of Serena, Venus, Sharapova, or Davenport types. When they played her Safina was mostly a spectator, they either hit or they missed. She even needed them to play poorly and make a ton of errors in her wins over them on clay, I cant even imagine what it would take on the other surfaces (not that we ever found out). In fact at her peak she couldnt even really take the match out of the hands of the next level down of power hitters like Kuznetsova, Ivanovic, or Dementieva herself either. If you watch her matches with those players she only won a match or even went 3 sets with them when they made enough errors to cause the match to go 3 sets. She could never overwhelm them with her power game or take the match away from them completely. Heck when she plays Kimiko Date so far the match is up to Date, look at their stats in their matches, Date hits many more winners and many more errors, so apparently the outcome of the match depends on 39 year old Date not on Safina. :lol: (and yeah I know Safina isnt at her best anymore, yada yada).

Yeah Safina at her best can take a match out of the hands of say Radwanska, Chakvatedze, Bartoli, Patty Schnyder. So can Dementieva with ease, big deal.


Her injury was a terrible thing to happen, in conjunction with the cruel comments the media and other players made when she was no. 1, making her doubt herself when she should have been ecstatic to achieve something all players dream of.

She brought on some of it herself by getting involved and saying being #1 was worth far more than winning a slam, slam winners are forgetting, all #1s are remembered forever. Defending her #1 ranking is fine, but saying things like that was ridiculous and made her an easy target. Especialy when she goes on to lose to players outside the top 100 after saying this.

I agree her injury is unfortunate as all players injuries are. I am not of the opinion her decline is solely or even mostly based on injury though, it is just one of multiple factors IMHO.


If she gets back to the top 10, I can certainly see her winning an RG down the line.

That shows you have a far higher opinion of her abilities than I do. That is all I will say. I put her chances of winning a future slam at this point about par with Seles returning to win Wimbledon.


I just find it sad that getting to no. 1 is considered a curse for Safina when so many failed to do it, better players even.

Well you are certainly right on one thing. Many better players than Safina did fail to reach #1. In fact such a long list it would break the computer if I tried to type it all out, one including even Dementieva IMO. And it is one reason why I dont think it is such a big deal in comparing the two, especialy in this era where nobody takes the rankings seriously anymore. Even Jankovic said she didnt feel that excited to get to #1 when she first reached it and didnt feel she deserved it yet since she hadnt won an important enough title.

Matt01
Jan 13th, 2011, 11:43 PM
Justineheninfan :help:

brickhousesupporter
Jan 13th, 2011, 11:46 PM
Y'all, we need to end this thread. There is no right answer, and no one wants to be labeled an apopletic hater that does not recognize greatness.:haha::haha::haha::haha:

LightWarrior
Jan 14th, 2011, 12:00 AM
Safina had a horrible rigid game. It was unbearable to watch. Plus the acne all over her face a couple of years ago (how could she even show up in tournaments having huge acne ? like we don't know where acne come from). This woman was a disgrace to women's tennis. Always bored on the court. Seriously I hope she retires soon for the tennis sake and her sanity. Now compare that to sweet Elena...Just the fact that there is an ongoing thread about it is insulting to Dementieva.

Orbis
Jan 14th, 2011, 02:19 AM
Safina had a horrible rigid game. It was unbearable to watch. Plus the acne all over her face a couple of years ago (how could she even show up in tournaments having huge acne ? like we don't know where acne come from). This woman was a disgrace to women's tennis. Always bored on the court. Seriously I hope she retires soon for the tennis sake and her sanity. Now compare that to sweet Elena...Just the fact that there is an ongoing thread about it is insulting to Dementieva.

:haha:

Stonerpova
Jan 14th, 2011, 02:28 AM
Safina has better stats, but Dementieva had a more consistent career and she never went into a tailspin like Safina.

n1_and_uh_noone
Jan 14th, 2011, 02:52 AM
LOL you actually dispute Dementieva being mentally much tougher than Safina. :lol: Safina is the epitome of a headcase. Dementieva is one of the best fighters on tour, but you will continue to milk how she played a really bad slam final against Myskina and never look beyond that. According to you Dementieva did not have the game to win a slam so you cant even bring up her failure to win a slam as a sign of mental weakness by your own logic.

Likewise, buddy. You keep citing how poorly Safina played in finals to say how mentally weak she was. That should not be a bone of contention here. Neither of them will win prizes in this category, although I thought Safina handled her brief stint at the top very well, until being derailed by the back injury. Don't make me list all the WTF losses Dementieva has had over the course of her super-consistent career, as well.

Meanwhile, keep talking of that wimbledon semi Elena played (well done, I respect her for putting up a great fight there) like it was the norm. That was her lightning in a bottle moment, simple as that.


Well you are certainly right on one thing. Many better players than Safina did fail to reach #1. In fact such a long list it would break the computer if I tried to type it all out, one including even Dementieva IMO. And it is one reason why I dont think it is such a big deal in comparing the two, especialy in this era where nobody takes the rankings seriously anymore. Even Jankovic said she didnt feel that excited to get to #1 when she first reached it and didnt feel she deserved it yet since she hadnt won an important enough title.

That does not mean she was not excited about it, per se.

http://www.asapsports.com/show_interview.php?id=53242

"I mean, how many people or girls would have loved to be in my shoes in the moment. I'm finishing No. 1 and I can just smile. I don't care (smiling). I mean, everybody wants to be the No. 1 player in the world, and I have that spot, so I'm keeping it warm for the winter days, you know. During the winter days, it's mine (laughing). "

Sure sounds excited to me.

Ciarán
Jan 14th, 2011, 03:37 AM
Also, Safina made the AO final in 2009, not 2008! What a hot tranny mess of a thread.

Dementieva because of her gold medal.