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View Full Version : Who's the better player, Anna or Serena?


selesrules
Oct 14th, 2002, 05:34 AM
vote

BasicTennis
Oct 14th, 2002, 05:39 AM
this comparison is Blasphemy to Goddess Serena.:rolleyes:

CanadianBoy21
Oct 14th, 2002, 05:39 AM
There are no options to vote for this thread being the worst in the wtaworld history.
I can't believe I am posting in this stupid thread, but this is waste of space, don't u have anything better to do?

CanadianBoy21
Oct 14th, 2002, 05:40 AM
By the way, I did not vote, and will not vote.

l_hommeca
Oct 14th, 2002, 05:42 AM
Is there even any question....Anna of course!!!!!!!!!!!

BasicTennis
Oct 14th, 2002, 05:44 AM
LOL

~RedRose~
Oct 14th, 2002, 06:40 AM
Well better in what way?? They are both players ... but Anna is the better [looking] player ... so i chose her!! :)

kournikovafan13
Oct 14th, 2002, 06:41 AM
This is just an invitation to come in and bash Anna :rolleyes:

l_hommeca
Oct 14th, 2002, 06:50 AM
Originally posted by kournikovafan13
This is just an invitation to come in and bash Anna :rolleyes:

Have some faith.:cool:

DeniseM
Oct 14th, 2002, 06:51 AM
I agree that this thread is just an attempt to trash Anna.

Granted she's never won a singles title, but she's still a very good tennis player. Consider how many tennis players there are who are ranked lower than her and who aren't even ranked.

She's also played a lot of doubles tennis --- which she didn't at all need to do. So, despite what some say, she obviously has some dedication to or love of tennis.

l_hommeca
Oct 14th, 2002, 06:55 AM
Originally posted by DeniseM
I agree that this thread is just an attempt to trash Anna.

Granted she's never won a singles title, but she's still a very good tennis player. Consider how many tennis players there are who are ranked lower than her and who aren't even ranked.

She's also played a lot of doubles tennis --- which she didn't at all need to do. So, despite what some say, she obviously has some dedication to or love of tennis.

What a nice thing to say..thank you

persond
Oct 14th, 2002, 06:56 AM
:) :) You have entirely too much time on your hands!!:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Williams Rulez
Oct 14th, 2002, 06:56 AM
selesrules is at it again... :rolleyes:

~ The Leopard ~
Oct 14th, 2002, 06:57 AM
lmao, I'm sure Anna is better at something.... hmmm :confused:

(and yes the person who started this thread may well be an agent provocateur)

Dawn Marie
Oct 14th, 2002, 06:58 AM
I third that, this is to only bash Anna. I don't care for her off court activities and such, but sheesh she does have talent.

Serena won 3 slams this year, just ain't right tryin to compare that with Anna at the moment.

per4ever
Oct 14th, 2002, 07:03 AM
worst thread in history....nice thing selesrules..you have a record.

Williams Rulez
Oct 14th, 2002, 07:06 AM
Who's a better player, selesrules or Nancy The Bagel Girl?

Scotso
Oct 14th, 2002, 07:07 AM
This isn't a thread to bash Anna. What are you people on :confused:

You obviously don't understand.

If Anna wasn't a headcase, she'd be a better player. No doubt. She's more talented and fluid than Serena could ever hope to be.

l_hommeca
Oct 14th, 2002, 07:09 AM
Selesrules...Don't hate me coz Im beautiful:kiss:

TeeRexx
Oct 14th, 2002, 07:19 AM
Anna is the better playa.
Look at all of the guys that she's had and the parties that she goes to all the time.

Anna is the playas playa.
Play on Anna. :)

Dawn Marie
Oct 14th, 2002, 07:27 AM
Actually I am going to stick with my first assessment as well, this thread is here to make people who post on Wta World to look like fools.

I am looking at this poll and thinking just that. I didn't vote because of my opinion.:)

irma
Oct 14th, 2002, 07:29 AM
"What are you people on"


he obsessed with serena, according to him she won 3 grand slams this year and that means she is not a nobody anymore, if she had won 1 she would have been for sure. I think when she had won 2 she would have been average :rolleyes:

schris
Oct 14th, 2002, 07:42 AM
selesrules again.... I knew it :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

selesrules
Oct 14th, 2002, 02:28 PM
Well Anna is winning the poll and it's very close, so obviously my poll made sense, unless you guys are saying that the posters on wtaworld are all ignorant? Anna is an incredible player and that's just not my opinion, look at the results of the poll. GO ANNA!

Serendy Willick
Oct 14th, 2002, 02:33 PM
This poll is a joke right? On a good day (heck and even on a not so good one) Serena would serve and blast Kournikova off the court. BTW, please cut the excuses for Anna, its old the bottom line is she has had a zillion chances to win a title and she just hasnt. What makes her so special that we are not supposed to look at her results? Because shes pretty? PULEEZE

Volcana
Oct 14th, 2002, 02:39 PM
selesrules - Nobody saying ALL the posters on WTAWorld are ignorant. Just the half that ignored brains, talent, 4 GS titles, being #1, head-to-head record, power, speed and tennis playing ability when voting. :)

selesrules
Oct 14th, 2002, 02:43 PM
Part of those stats are because of Serena's physical attributes, not because how great of a PLAYER she is. When you can physically hit serves over 120mph, that doesn't make you a great player, it makes you a powerful player. I think that everyone here agrees that Anna has more natural talent, if you switch Anna's and Serena's body, then Serena would have weaker results then Anna and Anna would have won more then 4 slams. And let us not forget all the serious injuries that Anna had, while Serena was luckier in that departement.

Experimentee
Oct 14th, 2002, 02:50 PM
This thread is so obviously a joke...anyone who thinks Anna is better is deluded.

Serendy Willick
Oct 14th, 2002, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by selesrules
Part of those stats are because of Serena's physical attributes, not because how great of a PLAYER she is. When you can physically hit serves over 120mph, that doesn't make you a great player, it makes you a powerful player. I think that everyone here agrees that Anna has more natural talent, if you switch Anna's and Serena's body, then Serena would have weaker results then Anna and Anna would have won more then 4 slams. And let us not forget all the serious injuries that Anna had, while Serena was luckier in that departement.

Bullshyt, so we are supposed to excuse Kournikova because she was injured? How many finals did she make eariler in her career? If she has problems with injuries then she shouldve hired a good trainer. Serena has also had stress fractures, hamsting problems, and various other injuries. Natural Talent doesnt mean squat if you dont choose to utilize it. Iroda Tulyganova can hit in 115-120mph range on her serve and she has a build that is more like Annas (although with bigger boobs;) Serena has had to work harder than Anna in many areas, so should Serenas results not mean squat because Anna "supposetly" has more natural talent?:rolleyes:

Volcana
Oct 14th, 2002, 03:52 PM
I think that everyone here agrees that Anna has more natural talent

No, they don't.

if you switch Anna's and Serena's body, then Serena would have weaker results then Anna and Anna would have won more then 4 slams. And let us not forget all the serious injuries that Anna had, while Serena was luckier in that departement.

Serena's constant injuries were given as a reason why she'd never be #1 during 2000 and 2001. Suddenly, she's the picture of health, while Anna's career is devastated by injuries? Get real. The main difference in Serena and Anna's games is from the neck up. Switch their bodies and Anna would still be a head case. I don't know that Serena could have won 4 GS titles in Anna's body, but she certainly would have won several titles by now. I don't think Anna would win tournaments on the WTA tour if she had Marat Safin's body. Her problems aren't physical. Justine Henin's a twig, but she manages to constantly beat bigger, stronger opponents.

In tennis, those who strongest MENTALLY rise to the top.

Volcana
Oct 14th, 2002, 04:12 PM
Damn, you've lured me into bashing Anna!

Let me back up. Anna's an okay player, one of the 50 best in the world. And injuries HAVE retarded her development. But the worst thing that ever happened to her was making the Wimbledon semis. The hype out ran the skill, and people thought they were looking at the 'next great player'. It seems ludicrous NOW that she was compared favorably to Venus, but at the time the winless streak was four years shorter than it is now, and Venus hadn't won any Slams.

On talent, Anna is a top 30 player, maybe even top 25. It's been years since we saw any sign of the game that made her a top ten player. (The 2000 Tour Championships, to be precise)

She is what she is. A player who's singles career highlight is one GS semi. The player we should be comparing her to isn't Serena, it's Alexandra Stevenson. Both made their name on one semi. BOth were benficiaries, or maybe victims, of a hype machine on steroids. Both are settling into the #25-40 range, which is about their talent level. Either might make a run into the 'teens, but it won't last.

PhoenixStorm
Oct 14th, 2002, 04:13 PM
Bravo and well said. Maybe Anna K should go find momo's brain transplant surgeon because he certaintainly helped her.

I don't care for Anna K. shes not a nice person based on the things i've read and heard about her and seen and I could care less if she ever wins a title or not.

She is also not a better player than a four grand slam winning, multiple title winning, number one player in the world.

Maybe seles rules would like us to start discussing monica's current form and results of late?

Once again I do not like anna but I dont hate her, indifference would be the proper word I think.

serena is also prettier than anna k.:angel:

selesrules
Oct 14th, 2002, 04:15 PM
I didn't know that Alexandra Stevenson was in the top 10, made several tier 1 event finals, has won grandslam doubles titles and has beaten many times the likes of Seles, Graf, S.Vicario, Davenport, Hingis, Capriati, etc. :rolleyes:

Raisin
Oct 14th, 2002, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by selesrules
I didn't know that Alexandra Stevenson was in the top 10, made several tier 1 event finals, has won grandslam doubles titles and has beaten many times the likes of Seles, Graf, S.Vicario, Davenport, Hingis, Capriati, etc. :rolleyes:

LMAO, I hope you've realised how stupid your comparison is:rolleyes:

selesrules
Oct 14th, 2002, 04:19 PM
Stevenson has no talent. She just hits every ball hard without thinking at all. Anna is a better player.

Philip
Oct 14th, 2002, 04:21 PM
well Anna is one of mt dearest favourites, and always will be, but being serious, it obvious which player is the better out of the two at this current time.

i really dont understand why this thread was made :o

Philip
Oct 14th, 2002, 04:22 PM
still voted for anna tho ;)

Ryan
Oct 14th, 2002, 04:31 PM
Lmfao. What a retarted comparison. I like Anna a lot, but this thread is just tempting me to bash her. Serena is leaps and bounds, plus a couple football fields better then Anna is. Selesrules has topped all his stupid polls, with this absolutely pathetic attempt.

PhoenixStorm
Oct 14th, 2002, 04:38 PM
Wow Who knew that this board was so biased? I mean only a true anna k fanatic or a williams hater would vote for anna k. How on earth can you compare anna's doubles success with serenas singles and doubles success?
serena has won the grandslam career wise in doubles, has anna done that?

Serena has four gs trophies. How many does anna have? Serena has numerous tier one and two titles and olympic gold. Does annna have that? No, but somehow she's the better player? Riiiiiiiight. I suppose anna is also better than lindsay and jen since they have less grandslams than serena, right? Anna's also better than martina squared and everett put together. Lets also toss in monica and steffi because we all know that anna was routinely whipping steffis butt before she retired.:rolleyes:

apoet29
Oct 14th, 2002, 04:45 PM
I have a feeling that Selesrules made this thread for the sole purpose to bash Serena, who is the current world no. 1. If his obvious favorite Monica Seles was in the top spot, would this thread have been made? I doubt it.

I agree that Anna is a very talented tennis player and her doubles prowess goes a great deal towards proving that point. However, at the end of her career, it will be what she has accomplished as a singles player that her career will be measured by and at this point in time, Anna's singles results are not up to par with her talent. I hate to say it, but natural talent and turning that talent into championships are two different issues. Serena has gone a long way to fulfill her potential. Anna has not. Yes, Kournikova has suffered injuries, but so have many other players and their development has not been hurt as much as Anna's. What is holding Anna back on the court is between the ears and not anything from the neck down. In any case, I don't believe that exceptions should be made for Anna because of her injuries. Every player suffers through them and moves on. If Anna is being held back mentally by her injuries, then I would venture that she needs a sports psychologist to help her get over her on court fears. Anna is still young enough to realize her talent, but the ball is in her court (pardon the pun).

I've decided not to vote in the poll since I feel that it is biased in favor of one player over another. Selesrules, get over yourself.

Irish
Oct 14th, 2002, 05:09 PM
All around, including personality--Anna Kournikova

Glenn
Oct 14th, 2002, 05:29 PM
They're tied!

smally
Oct 14th, 2002, 05:41 PM
Doesn't Serena also have like three grand slam mixed doubles titles( with Marx Mirnyi) which are hardly ever mentioned???

A4
Oct 14th, 2002, 06:20 PM
Well, I voted for Anna. Just thought a ridiculous thread deserved a rather stupid answer. Poor Anna. Guess we'd all like to joke with her butt.

Meesh
Oct 14th, 2002, 06:46 PM
I refuse to vote on this topic but felt the need to reiterate what Jay said a few weeks back in his *** News Flash *** thread:

Selesrules is a TROLL :mad:

Dawn Marie
Oct 14th, 2002, 07:15 PM
LOL@Meesh and great post Apoet:)

l_hommeca
Oct 14th, 2002, 09:08 PM
If you're built like a linebacker no wonder she's much better. She just powers her way through matches. Pound for pound..Anna's got more talent granted she has focus problems, among other things thus the no titles...I'm sure (except W/S fans, of course) that most people have crossed that idea one time or another. Serena is a good player but without those pipes and legs I don't think shed be where she is. I know, I know..we'll thats not her problem, blah blah, blah. It's like saying Shaq is the best player in history..bs. Yes hes a good player through the help of P Jackson and Tex Winter crew of course, but he would not be as dominant in the NBA if it weren't for his monstrous dominating frame. Oh BTW, Venus' height and wingspan helps her as a player also. So pound of pound, height by height Anna, Clijsters, Capriati have more talent... Oh Ok W/S are still the best...sheesh. But yes that's the way it is, they have god given physical attributes so their winning. Well good for them they've used it well.

Lastly I would choose Chanda Rubin over these two. She's not big and tall but she beat Serena once at JP Morgan Chase and she almost beat Venus at the open. Now there's a player. If you want to find a hardworking player she is definitely one of them.

PhoenixStorm
Oct 14th, 2002, 09:18 PM
wow more bs about god given gifts. I am sorry but god didn't send them to the gym and to the tennis courts to practice and god didn't give them the disclipine to compete and get better. That all came from themselves and their parents. THEY WORKED FOR THAT.

I am so tired of people diminishing the qualities of other races based on some nonsense like God given whatever... it means nothing what you're born with if you dont put in the HARD WORK.

You make it sound like they came out of the womb swinging rakets and winners and pounding aces. No they worked for it. Maybe anna should take her butt to the gym! And dont give me that crap about she doesnt have the body, Im sorry but venus iS NOT MUSCULAR yet she does just fine because she does work out.

Muscles are earned through blood and sweat and tears maybe if people like anna put in the work they would see better results. Also anna is just as gifted as serena and venus and whoever. She's fast has instinct on the court but she is a head case. TENNIS IS MENTAL if your oh so great analysis were true then how do u explain the lack of grandslam success for venus and serena from when they first came on tour? If your assesment was anything more than biased racist drivel then you would have an answer, but its not.

why is it in sports peopel always try to put the black players down as if they didnt work twice as hard to get where they are! geezus!

l_hommeca
Oct 14th, 2002, 09:19 PM
I am not saying she's isnt a hard worker cause she is. And I have heard of your rebuttle before and it was expected

PhoenixStorm
Oct 14th, 2002, 09:20 PM
Please do us all a favor and read this and then continue to make your biased misinformed statements.

The Cerebral Nature of Venus Williams
How the Williams sisters and Eric Riley are changing the game


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by Larry Platt

The message was left on my voicemail in the wee hours. "Come by the courts at the University at 10 this morning," Eric Riley said. "There’s something you’ll want to see."

It was early August, about three weeks and change before the U.S. Open, and something about the tantalizing nature of the invitation, the mystery of it, drew me to the University of Pennsylvania’s outdoor tennis courts at the appointed time. There was the 39-year-old Riley, a striking African American man (he was once engaged to Robin Givens), the former coach of Pam Shriver, Kathy Jordan, Lisa Raymond and the Jensen brothers.

At 6'3," he stood at the net, where, in the most compact of motions, he methodically blocked back a torrent of groundstrokes that were whizzing off the racket of a bouncing blur of an opponent. Onlookers were flocking to the sight from their nearby offices, drawn by the high-pitched grunts coming from the court. Again and again, there Riley stood, silent, volleying back the bullets launched by this faceless dynamo of energy.

As I got closer, all of it – the gawking crowd, the on-court intensity – made sudden sense when I recognized who that was scurrying around the baseline. Martina Navratilova was hitting with her friend Riley, but this was no social call. She was working out. And working, and working, and working. She was tuning up for the Open, where she’d play doubles and mixed doubles.

For the next couple of hours, she’d rarely pause for a breather, her shirt soaked, muscles rippling. She even started to play to the crowd of slack-jawed onlookers. "Remember, nobody on their death bed ever said I should have done more paperwork and played less tennis!" she said.

During a Gatorade break, she told Riley’s assistant, a college player, that this type of workout was standard fare for her when she was number one in the world – followed, every day, by an hour of cardio and an hour of weightlifting. Riley looked at his pupil and only had to utter one word: "See?"

Riley, who tells his players that the most important part of a tennis player is the part you can’t see – the heart – would try and impart a similar lesson in work ethic to his newest acolyte a few weeks later. Just before the Open, he was hired to coach Alexandra Stevenson, the 19-year-old who had burst upon the scene during the 1999 Wimbledon fortnight when, as a qualifier, she made it all the way to the semifinals – an unheard of feat. That she’d been able to go from obscure high school graduate to the final four of the most pressure-packed, storied tournament in history was made all the more eye-opening by the fact that her streak took place while she was engulfed in a media maelstrom: Her tennis was in danger of being overshadowed by the secret of her parentage when it came out that she was Julius Erving’s daughter.

She lost to Lindsay Davenport that year, but not before charming the press with a sweet smile while watching her mother, Samantha, become the latest tennis parent to earn media scrutiny. Samantha made noise about racism and lesbianism on the tour, while Alexandra took care of business on the court.

"Nothing could have prepared Alexandra for what happened after that Wimbledon," Riley says today, after working with Stevenson for four days prior to her first round 6-3, 6-4 loss to Mary Pierce at the Open. "She was thrown into the lion’s den. After that, she was guaranteed to never have an easy tennis match again. That’s hard to deal with when you’ve just graduated high school."

Indeed, Stevenson came to Riley after compiling a dismal 9-22 record since her Wimbledon debut last year. Though she lost to Pierce last month, there were encouraging signs. In four days of preparation, Riley worked on only two facets of Stevenson’s game: her return of serve and her own big, but inconsistent, serve. Against Pierce, she missed only eight service returns and served at 62 percent. Were it not for a bevy of unforced errors, she would have upset the No. 4 seed.

Riley is mulling going on the road with Stevenson next year, so taken is he with her potential. "Alexandra has the best service motion in the world," he says. "She’s got the game’s hardest serve, but has to learn location and spin." He pauses. And then he says the one thing that every tennis coach has said, the one thing few ever find. "She can be the real thing. Top five talent."


Changing the face of tennis

It started with a paper plate in 1969. That’s how Eric Riley knew he’d be a professional tennis player. He was just nine years old and living in the suburbs of Philadelphia when he’d gone to a tennis match at Philadelphia’s Spectrum. There, he saw someone who looked like him kick ass on a tennis court, someone with dark skin, slightly kinky hair and a fragile build that masked a fiery zeal. He saw Arthur Ashe. And when Ashe kindly signed his paper plate, the kid was hooked.

Over the years, Ashe would serve as something of a mentor to Riley, pushing education – and not athletics. Ashe was why Riley eschewed the big-time scholarship offers and attended the Ivy League’s University of Pennsylvania, where he was captain of the tennis team while majoring in Oriental Studies.

After a stellar collegiate career, Riley decided to buck the odds and try the professional satellite tour. "Once I had some good results on tour, Arthur had some encouraging things to say, but he was always more concerned that I think about my future," says Riley, whose suburban Philadelphia home contains signed bound copies of Ashe’s history of the African American athlete, A Hard Road to Glory. In seven years on the tour, Riley peaked at No. 270 in the world, beating David Pate, then ranked 18th in the world, and David Wheaton in Hawaii.

As a coach, Riley has been more successful. In fact, he’s the first African American since Ashe captained the U.S. Davis Cup squad to coach marquee white players, having guided top-five singles player Pam Shriver to the 1991 U.S. Open doubles title. Raymond reached her highest singles ranking under Riley’s tutelage in 1997 (15th), and won the U.S. Open mixed doubles trophy in 1996.

Of late, he’s amassed an up-and-coming crew of tennis talent in Philadelphia, although, like their coach, they don’t look like tennis players. His students include 16-year-old African American Frankie Green and Asian Chelsea Glynn, also 16, who moved to Philly from Des Moines, Iowa, to train with Riley.

Riley, who was once approached by a fellow named Richard Williams when Williams was in search of a coach for his two pre-teen prodigies, believes that tennis is just now starting to change, to become open to new and darker skin tones. He sees it at tournaments now, when African American families fill the stands to see the Williams sisters.

But he knows that such change is slow and incremental; last year, for instance, at the Advanta Championships in Philadelphia, little black girls with beads in their hair were everywhere to be found in the audience during Venus Williams’s match. But when the final pitted Martina Hingis versus Davenport, the crowd again seemed all-white and country club.

That’s why Alexandra Stevenson can be so important; Riley knows that if he decides to go on the road with her and she makes it back to the elite, such an accomplishment can build on the goal instilled in him by his mentor, Ashe: To change the face of tennis.


Cerebral nature

The stereotypes still exist, of course. We saw them at Wimbledon, when Chris Evert talked about Venus Williams’s "natural athletic talent," characterized Martina Hingis as "smart," and conjured up memories of Howard Cosell’s infamous "little monkey" remark when she observed that Williams was "playing like a caged animal." Indeed, prior to the Open’s semifinal match between Venus Williams and Hingis, announcer Dick Enberg set up the battle thusly: "It’s the power of Williams versus the cerebral nature of Hingis."

"I remember in the ‘60s and ‘70s, how it was believed that black men couldn’t quarterback a football team because we weren’t cerebral enough and didn’t have leadership qualities," says Riley, when I tell him of Enberg’s remark. "That wasn’t true, and everybody knows it now. But football had a Doug Williams, a Randall Cunningham. Tennis still hasn’t had to deal with a lot of African Americans excelling in the sport."

Riley knows that the Williams sisters weren’t born already in possession of a tennis gene. Interestingly, John McEnroe knows this, too. During the Open, he was the lone voice – in contrast to the likes of Enberg, Tracy Austin, and Mary Carillo – to acknowledge that they’ve gotten where they are due to their work ethic, a trait normally assigned to the white athlete. (Think Larry Bird in contrast to Michael Jordan; both spent equivalent amounts of time in the gym, but which was depicted as a "workmanlike, lunch-pail gym rat" and which as a "natural athlete"?)

During one of Venus Williams’s matches, McEnroe said: "Venus works extremely hard at her game. The other day, she played Tauziat three tough sets, then played a doubles match and then was out on the practice court that night – all in the same day."

Why was this not mentioned sooner? Why did it take an aside from McEnroe – who has always been progressive on matters of race, once turning down $1 million to play an exhibition at Sun City in South Africa because of his opposition to apartheid – to remind us that what we see from black athletes isn’t easy?

In fact, Riley marvels at the cerebral nature of the Williamses’ respective games. They play with an all-out, aggressive abandon that is the product of the triumph of mind over matter. They go for their shots, aiming for the lines without regard to circumstance: a conscious, thought-out strategy, when the natural tendency is to tighten up and play it safer.

Against Hingis and Davenport, Venus actually played smarter than her opponents, using her exceptional speed to run down shots and hit aggressively defensive shots in reply. The result was that both Hingis and Davenport would have to hit three or four scorching shots from deep in their own court, often on the run – each one a winner against any other opponent – just to win one point. She forced them into errors.

"That’s what Alexandra and I talk about," Riley says. "How you don’t have to go for winners on every shot. How tennis is about drawing mistakes from your opponents."

Indeed, Riley sees the Williamses’ success as an inherently cerebral one. As he sees it, putting your talents to productive use is an intellectual endeavor. After all, there are plenty of players with talent – Stevenson is still one – who have yet to master the nuances of the game. But he also recognizes something else in the Williamses, something he’s also trying to nurture in Stevenson: the aggressiveness of the African American athlete.


Changing the game

"In every sport we enter in large numbers, we change how it's played and coached," Ashe wrote in A Hard Road to Glory. "Be it Billy ‘White Shoes’ Johnson changing the idea of celebration in football to how Black players changed the use of speed in baseball. Within five years of Jackie Robinson’s entry into the major leagues, Blacks took over the stolen base category and made it a weapon of intimidation it hadn’t been since the Ty Cobb era. We’re used to playing an in-your-face game."

It’s a style born of being locked out. When Riley was on the tour, countless white players, content to stay on the baseline, would ask him why the game’s few black players all played the same serve-and volley-style. He sensed then, and believes now, that the answer has something to do with environmental determinism.

"Coming up, you just knew that a passive person of color wouldn’t make it," he says. "To get to the top in a white dominated sport – or whatever field you’re in – you just have to work harder and be more driven than the next guy. You know this coming in."

And, as Ashe illustrates, that in-your-face style is smart in and of itself, because it can be wielded as a weapon, as lethal as a crosscourt forehand. A case in point was on display at the Open. The "alliance" between Hingis and Davenport – who pledged to each other that they’d stand in the way of an all-Williams final – had something to do with race; after all, no two players had ever conspired together to prevent a Hingis-Davenport final. (And Hingis and Davenport, at least prior to Venus Williams’s Open win, were ranked No. 1 and 2, respectively).

It was revealing of just how deep into their opponents’ psyches the Williamses had traveled. Talk about intimidation: Before they were even scheduled to play the Williamses, Davenport and Hingis were fretting about the eventuality.

And, then, once play began between Hingis and Venus Williams, Venus sent some clear signals during Hingis’s first service game. She swatted her first three service returns with all her might, standing inside the baseline. The balls careened wildly wide and long, but the point had been made and it was reminiscent of Patrick Ewing’s goaltends against North Carolina to start the 1982 NCAA championship game. It said, "Don’t take your shit in here." When Venus started rolling and hitting her surging forehand swinging volleys – maybe now the most intimidating shot in all of tennis, recalling Ashe’s prediction of how black athletes change the game – the upset was on.

When he was on tour, Eric Riley had to withstand racism. Of course, he has to withstand it to this day, too, as on those all too frequent days that he gets pulled over in his BMW and asked, "Whose car is this?"

But on tour, he had to train himself to turn the other cheek. It wasn’t that he was Gandhi-like or taking the moral high ground when, for instance, during one match, his German opponent called him the n-word. No, he knew enough from the example set by Arthur that it was simply smart, as a tennis player, to stay focused.

"That guy wanted to take me out of my game, make me mad," he recalls. Noting that Alexandra Stevenson has heard her share of racial epithets, Riley says, "If players know they can bother a player by talking about that player’s race, they’ll do it. This is war."

So has he spoken to Stevenson about race? No. "Alexandra’s battles are about Alex versus the ball," he says. "Throw that race stuff out the window, man. That’s a distraction. Keep your eyes on the prize."

l_hommeca
Oct 14th, 2002, 09:22 PM
Put black players down? I love Jordan he's a damn hard worker. He didn't have all the talent. And did mention Chanda Rubin but I guess you didn't read tha part

TSequoia01
Oct 14th, 2002, 09:23 PM
This thread did give me a good laugh so for that thanks Selesrule. It just goes to show you how far people will go to discredit the Sisters. Serena at 5'10" and 145 lbs the size of a linebacker? Clijsters is as big, Lindsay is much bigger, the same with Dokic, yet Serena dominates. Athletics is about the physical and the mental. Hey folks if you lack either than you cannot be the best. Talent incorporates both physical and mental attributes, one does not negate the other. Serena Williams is not only the most talented tennis player currently in the WTA, but probably in the history of tennis (ladies of course) period. So you do not have to like her, but get out of the need for this denial. All the denial in the world will not change one iota of truth. Thanks Selesrule, I am still laughing. :p :)

l_hommeca
Oct 14th, 2002, 09:25 PM
Yeah Selesrules thanks...coz it's out in the open now.

PhoenixStorm
Oct 14th, 2002, 09:25 PM
You make it seem as if just because you are born with a height advantage or whatever that you do not have to put in the work time patience and skill to develop your game. Just because someone is born with whatever advantage doesn't mean someone else who doesnt have it are somehow better or lesser. You have to look at way more than one freaking quality or aspect of a player. You did not do that. You went straight for the Oh serena is more muscular (she goes to the gym, u can have muscles too if you work for them), venus is soooo tall ( youre right she is, so is lindsay, so are a lot of people), venus and serena are soooo fast (because they train and eat right)

basically what youre doing is making excuses. Anna k could be a world class grand slam winning athelete right now today if she didnt have all those mental problems. Injuries can be overcome, look at chanda. so dont give me that crap.

l_hommeca
Oct 14th, 2002, 09:27 PM
Hey, everybody is at a disadvantange don't you think...Not an even level playing field.. But it's ok, they are actually good for the game.. I really do. It's more like the mens game its faster so I actually enjoy.. So really the W/S are put on this earth for a reason, to up the skills and speed for womens tennis that very good. So players and the public see that and will get to their level of game.

PhoenixStorm
Oct 14th, 2002, 09:31 PM
I realize you did mention chanda, but you fail to realize somehow that she is NOT the only hard worker on the tour. COUNTLESS players have returned from injuries, where is there glory and praises? Serena has done it, Lindsay has done it, Venus has done it, Kim has done it.....etc etc etc.....

The bottom line is that tennis is just as mental as it is physical. Anna has the physical not the mental which is why she loses and loses and loses. Therefore she is NOT the better player than a grandslam winning number one who KNOWS HOW TO WIN.


Serena losing all those matches to jen last year is a case in point. It was mental, jen was strong serena was weak mentally. IS that an excuse? No, if she wasn't strong enough to win then she deserved to lose.

PhoenixStorm
Oct 14th, 2002, 09:35 PM
Hey, everybody is at at disadvantange don't you think

Only losers think this way. Maybe that explains anna's singles career. Maybe she goes around saying, "poor me, what can I do against the big bag super amazon williams sisters who only win because god blessed them with those bodies. i bet miss williams had an awful time birthing serena with all those muscles that girl has. I bet she was benching her baby carriage! Wow She'll make great breeding stock! Maybe I should tell enrique to marry her so we can steal her baby and have a winner in the family so I can finally have a grand slam trophy in the family because god knows that I only lose because I am not built like serena and venus.. Poor me."

apoet29
Oct 14th, 2002, 09:36 PM
I have to agree with the other posts here. Physical advantages may help a player, but if that player does not possess mental toughness, tactical awareness and a shrewd game plan, then physical advantages will not help him or her one bit. So in that sense l'hommeca, your argument is moot. Venus and Serena may be tall and strong, but so are Davenport and Mauresmo and many other players on the tour. V/S are at the top because they have learned how to play the game and beat their opponents. Davenport didn't win three grand slams by being tall and strong; she incorporated many different facets to her game to win. Mauresmo got over her mental issues to win many big titles. If you don't like V/S l'hommeca, that's fine, but don't put down their results as merely being the efforts of big, strong women when these ladies are much more than that.

Whether or not one player is more gifted than another is also a moot point because fans tend to make that decision based on whether or not they like that particular player. One player may serve better than another. One player may volley better than another. One player may be more mentally tough than another. It is hard to measure it. That is why tournament wins, particularly the grand slams, count for so much in measuring a player's talent. At this point, no one can discount the Williams sisters talent. They have the grand slams to prove it. No one can discount Anna's talent; she has the doubles titles to prove it. What Anna needs to do is take that doubles prowess and apply it to her singles game.

Thank you Knopfler for you kind compliment. I have been a fan of yours for a long time since I am an active reader of the Anna board.

PhoenixStorm
Oct 14th, 2002, 09:40 PM
EXACTLY apoet29 you nailed it on the head! I just wish I could have calmly explained it like you did. Its just that drivel like that makes my blood boil because its so insulting and demeaning. Oh lets single out the williams sisters and cast them as mindless automatons. whatever.

As soon as read crap like that I know exactly where that person is coming from whether they know it themselves or not. Maybe they're just regurgitating some mindless negative crap they heard else where who knows, but its still wrong.

anna has talent. shes a good player. is she great? no, not until she masters the MENTAL part of tennis she wont' be.

l_hommeca
Oct 14th, 2002, 09:41 PM
Well thats what you think saying poor me and a loser but I can't say she feels too sorry for herself She doesn't seem to be a person who puts herself down and sulks all the time. I do think she does lack in confidence.

PhoenixStorm
Oct 14th, 2002, 09:43 PM
I dont really believe she believes that I think thats what you think she believes. I beleive that you believe that about her.

l_hommeca
Oct 14th, 2002, 09:45 PM
Its helps I didn't say its the sole reason, of course not. I did say they are good players. I said it helps to get where they are - dominant. The mental aspect ok. But as Navratilova said if you are quick player like Hewitt, you will get less flustered and of course more confident. Yes she has mental strength but she is barely tested. Thats not her fault but she needs to be tested. I know the mental aspect, I know it's not all physical.

l_hommeca
Oct 14th, 2002, 09:47 PM
I hear lots of things.. but two things that stick out for these two are coverage of court and quickness. Two that they do very well.

PhoenixStorm
Oct 14th, 2002, 09:50 PM
you hear the same things about jennifer. You hear the same things about kim and daniela just to name two more.

l_hommeca
Oct 14th, 2002, 09:52 PM
I don't think so. I personally don't hear that at least not to their level.

Serendy Willick
Oct 14th, 2002, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by l_hommeca
I don't think so. I personally don't hear that at least not to their level.

The reason why you dont hear this very much about them is because the BS media wants to put on this crap motion that the Williams have an unfair advantage due to their height and power. Hantcuova is tall with long legs and an great reach, but she doesnt get half the flack Vee gets. Davenport is taller than Venus, but you dont hear the media gawking over her height. Serena is 5'10 145 pounds with a full cheast but all you hear is about her power like shes the biggest, stongest on the tour. Anyone who has seen Serena in person knows that she is really alot smaller than the camera gives her credit for.

Sean
Oct 14th, 2002, 11:23 PM
LMAO Now I love Anna dearly but come on...

Volcana
Oct 14th, 2002, 11:26 PM
If you're built like a linebacker no wonder she's much better. She just powers her way through matches. Pound for pound..Anna's got more talent granted she has focus problems, among other things thus the no titles...I'm sure (except W/S fans, of course) that most people have crossed that idea one time or another. Serena is a good player but without those pipes and legs I don't think shed be where she is. I know, I know..we'll thats not her problem, blah blah, blah. It's like saying Shaq is the best player in history..bs. Yes hes a good player through the help of P Jackson and Tex Winter crew of course, but he would not be as dominant in the NBA if it weren't for his monstrous dominating frame. Oh BTW, Venus' height and wingspan helps her as a player also. So pound of pound, height by height Anna, Clijsters, Capriati have more talent...

l_hommeca - Why do you have to put down Monica like that? Sure she's taller and heavier than Anna and Chanda .. and Serena, but I think she earned those nine GS titles on skill. Sure her game LOOKS like its all power, all the time, but there's more to it than that.

Volcana
Oct 15th, 2002, 12:07 AM
Height, in the world of the WTA, is to be charitable, malleable. For the past couple years, I've been comparing the top tenners at the net, trying to figure out their real heights.

Lindsay is an inch, maybe an inch and a half taller than Venus.
Venus is an inch, maybe an inch and a half taller than Daniela.
Daniela is about a half inch, maybe a full inch taller than Monica.
Monica is about an inch to an inch and a half taller than Serena.

Then things get questionable. Serena, Jenn, Amelie, Kim and Jelena are LISTED at roughly the same height by the WTA.

I don't think so.

But watching Serena at net at the end of matches vs those players, she certainly isn't anything like INCHES taller. To my eyes, Kim and Serena are the tallest, then Jelena and Amelie, then Jenn. But Jelena slumps so much she could be six feet tall and we'd never know. THe 5'8" the WTA lists is ridiculous. But Serena isn't 5'10" either, not if Jenn is 5'8" and Kim is 5'8".

With all those caveats, here's the top ten, ordered by height

1.89 m Davenport
1.85 m Williams, V
1.82 m Hantuchova
1.81 m Seles
1.77 m Williams, S
1.75 m Mauresmo
1.75 m Dokic
1.74 m Clijsters
1.74 m Capriati
1.67 m Henin

Here are the other basketball players.

1.80 m Shaughnessy
1.80 m Dementieva
1.85 m Stevenson
1.89 m Bovina

Intersting thing about Serena. Whether you think she's 5' 8 1/2 or 5' 10 1/2", she winds up #5 in height order.

Should we make Lindsay and Monica return those Slams? :)

KoOlMaNsEaN
Oct 15th, 2002, 12:24 AM
serena

wongqks
Oct 15th, 2002, 12:42 AM
I couldn't believe this thread by selesrules actually provoke such long and sensible discussion LOL

Janet
Oct 15th, 2002, 12:46 AM
I feel sorry for all the people who think ana is a better then serena, you guys really don't know how to rank a champion!! but you know what serena is laughing all the way to the bank................she knows what takes to be a champion, ana on the other hand needs to re junvile her game soon!!!! before its too late for her..............and then what she have at end just her looks..............what a shame........

the cat
Oct 15th, 2002, 03:47 AM
Apoet, Anna's struggles are certainly partly mental as you point out. But she has physical problems too, from the neck down. She is unfortunately very injury prone like Tracy Austin and Andrea Jaeger were. And all the injuries have conspired to hold her back and keep her from even coming close to fulfilling her potential.

As for the poll. Why bother?

Cybelle Darkholme
Oct 15th, 2002, 04:06 AM
OoOOOOOOoooo Lordy I can't believe I missed all the drama up in here!

Equinox
Oct 15th, 2002, 04:13 AM
This is stupid

are u a hater or just a troll? :rolleyes:

deydreemyn
Oct 15th, 2002, 07:55 AM
Serena has more than just physical power. She also has skill. Those who say she is only winning only because of her power are wrong. In the beginning of her and Venus career they had the power but because they had not learned to harness it then, they were losing. It takes skill also and they developed that over the years. You can have power all day but if you can't keep the ball in play, you are going to lose.
http://www.smilies.org/basesmilies/yawn.gif

wave
Oct 15th, 2002, 08:25 AM
Obviously Selesrules wants to get negative feedback for both, Serena and Anna. Please don't mix him with other Monica fans. He's really different from most of us. But this is a free (internet) world. So his thread will stay and those who would like to vote should do so... I won't.

Raisin
Oct 15th, 2002, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by l_hommeca
[B Oh Ok W/S are still the best...sheesh. [/B]

You are so right:o

At the end of the day we all know serena and Venus are simply the best:kiss:

juggler
Oct 15th, 2002, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by Volcana
Damn, you've lured me into bashing Anna!

On talent, Anna is a top 30 player, maybe even top 25. It's been years since we saw any sign of the game that made her a top ten player. (The 2000 Tour Championships, to be precise)

Hmm top 30 talent hey? well that must mean anna has had a succesful year as she is ranked in the low 30s. :rolleyes:

anybody in their right mind knows anna's year has been nothing short of disasterous. so if she had even a reasonable year, i can tell u she would be ranked alot higher than the top 30.

and i like how you say its been years since anna showed top 10 form. well its been 18 months, and she missed 8 of those thru injury

She is what she is. A player who's singles career highlight is one GS semi. The player we should be comparing her to isn't Serena, it's Alexandra Stevenson. Both made their name on one semi. BOth were benficiaries, or maybe victims, of a hype machine on steroids. Both are settling into the #25-40 range, which is about their talent level. Either might make a run into the 'teens, but it won't last.

:rolleyes: ok let me ask u this. had anna not had an injury in feb 2001. where do u think she would be ranked at this point? would she have just naturally slid down the rankings to 25-40 anyway

:rolleyes:

Gowza
Oct 15th, 2002, 10:30 AM
i think if she didn't get injured she would already have that first title that she gets such a bashing for

l_hommeca
Oct 15th, 2002, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by Raisin


You are so right:o

At the end of the day we all know serena and Venus are simply the best:kiss:

C'mon you can do better than that. From Geneva Switzerland? Yeah I've been there too bad there's shrivled up prunes lyin about to dirty it up.:kiss:

I 've already predicted this, that's why I wrote it...TYPICAL, JUST TYPICAL AND PREDICTABLE..be more original. Like being humble that ain't gonna happen.

Give em some heat Venus, Give em some heat

reply: you got that right son

Predictable

Fans...sheesh

Raisin
Oct 15th, 2002, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by l_hommeca


C'mon you can do better than that. From Geneva Switzerland? Yeah I've been there too bad there's shrivled up prunes lyin about to dirty it up.:kiss:

I 've already predicted this, that's why wrote it...TYPICAL, JUST TYPICAL AND PREDICTABLE..be more original. Like being humble.


Where in Geneva were you? Maybe next time I can help you visit some places.:cool:

rioak1
Oct 15th, 2002, 06:11 PM
but serena and venus are the best also,but at this point there ain't nobody that can beat serena.:D :)you go ANNA GIRL

GrandSlammed
Oct 15th, 2002, 08:59 PM
Is there ANY hope of white folks EVER getting over their inferiority complex vs. blacks in sports????? This is what you should be polling selesrules.

Heaven and Hell will join forces before Kournikova catches up to the Williams sisters.

GrandSlammed
Oct 15th, 2002, 09:01 PM
LMAO!!! Say what joy??? ... now that's one sad mothersucker. lol

GrandSlammed
Oct 15th, 2002, 09:04 PM
AND by the way... I didn't vote. I'd be an even sorrier mother****** if I did. ;)

l_hommeca
Oct 15th, 2002, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by joy
And this is a SHOUT-OUT- I WANT EVERYONE TO KNOW THAT l-hommeca is so PITIFUL that he/she went on Anna's website to ask people to come vote here for her!! How pathetic is THAT? You would probably buy her a win too, if you could...get a life!!

Pathetic??? I don't think so. Hey just lettin' all the AK fans know - what the heck is wrong with that since this site is probably heavily infested with W/S fans. I am not forcing anyone to vote but only to ask...if they do - great! Just like the spirit of Americana... I guess that's something you don't know about. This is not exactly double votes and trashing out the other votes. A vote is vote and all the fans should know.

BTW, I think I have a life thank you. :rolleyes:
....geneva, ...lausanne, ny, paris for vacation. I just love to travel

tennischick
Oct 15th, 2002, 10:27 PM
the results of this poll are hilarious. LMAO. thanks for the laugh selesrules.

WhatTheDeuce
Oct 15th, 2002, 11:11 PM
Anna is honestly more talented...

apoet29
Oct 15th, 2002, 11:15 PM
Can we please close this thread? It has gone past the point of good taste.

jojoseph
Oct 16th, 2002, 03:17 AM
selesrules, if you really weren't trying to start anything, you would not have created this thread.

I don't know any objective person that would say that anna is better than serena right now. It just isn't possible.

If anything, creating a thread that asks who has more talent would be a more suitable poll.

IMHO, you should delete this thread.

just my opinion

selesrules
Oct 16th, 2002, 03:43 AM
jojoseph, if you haven't noticed the results, nearly half of the people here believe that Anna is a better player. So obviously my question is a good one. Unless you're calling half of the posters here as being stupid?

Equinox
Oct 16th, 2002, 03:48 AM
such stupid thread :rolleyes:

l_hommeca
Oct 16th, 2002, 05:17 AM
You might as well close this thread or please don't post anymore on this thread. It certainly has brought many different characters to this thread and their personalities. For the most part it was pretty fun for me and a learning experience about people and fans on this site. I personally have not started any provocation on a thread in my entire life. And what's so funny is that I would be the outsider looking in and posting this site as funny or maybe actually saying it to stop. In the end, this thread in my opinion is not a question of who is better between the players but actually what types of personalities and their beliefs exposed. So for me..this is the end and you can put any nasty remarks following this if you want and expose yourself again (ie grandslammed) cause it doesn't matter for me anymore. This site is still actually fun for me but boy it's also very divided just like in the real world. And as presumed its always on the issue of race which was not my intention but as expected it got to be that again. I'll still be around posting but I still have to do other things and actually playing some tennis like the rest in the real world.

jojoseph
Oct 16th, 2002, 05:23 AM
Originally posted by selesrules
jojoseph, if you haven't noticed the results, nearly half of the people here believe that Anna is a better player. So obviously my question is a good one. Unless you're calling half of the posters here as being stupid?

not quite. There are several people that would love to vote for anna, just cause she's anna. Normally, I would to, but not in this instance.

serena has won just about every match she's played this year. You can not possibly say the same thing about anna.

anna will be as good as serena some day, but creating this poll was, without a doubt, absurd. It actually calls attention to anna's record this year, which, compared to Serena, kinda makes her look bad.

Asking for this thread to be closed is nonsense, as you have as much right to post things that aren't objectionable as anyone, which is why I asked for you to delete it. You won't, apparently, and I'm not mad, as I was just stating my own opinion. I will now move on.

Raisin
Oct 16th, 2002, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by l_hommeca


Pathetic??? I don't think so. Hey just lettin' all the AK fans know - what the heck is wrong with that since this site is probably heavily infested with W/S fans. I am not forcing anyone to vote but only to ask...if they do - great! Just like the spirit of Americana... I guess that's something you don't know about. This is not exactly double votes and trashing out the other votes. A vote is vote and all the fans should know.

BTW, I think I have a life thank you. :rolleyes:
....geneva, ...lausanne, ny, paris for vacation. I just love to travel




LMAO @ you asking Anna K. fans to come and vote and you tell me you've got a life:rolleyes: . You're just pathetic, end of discussion:o

Williams Rulez
Oct 16th, 2002, 11:25 AM
This is just a pathetic thread, and I mean if facts are so obvious and people can't accept it, then there is nothing more to say.

ajayares
Oct 16th, 2002, 12:57 PM
You will be waiting all day for Volcana to reply Juggler, "it" seems to have the habit of posting Bullshit and when anyone questions the crap, "it" disappears, so I would take that as a win.. but in this case, like many others, was there any doubt?