PDA

View Full Version : International series SEC, Bali


ma re
Jul 6th, 2010, 04:32 PM
Since it would be only logical that we also play this event in Tipping, we have to figure out how we'll apply the rules to our game, so I created this thread where all of us will give our opinions, suggestions and ideas to make this event a great one.

The problem is that we can't copy the exact rules for qualifying for this event from real tennis, cause there only those winners of IS events that are ranked outside of top20 are allowed to play Bali. Applying that rule in Tipping wouldn't really be possible, cause probably only about 2-3 players would fit that criteria by the end of the year, and that's not enough players to make the tournament interesting. So here are a few ideas, feel free to say if you like any of them or express your own if you think you've come up with something better;)

a) Only winners of IS (international series) events qualify, if someone wins two such events it doesen't matter, we'll have less players qualifying.

b) Winners of IS events qualify, but if someone wins more than one such event, we allow the best runner-up of the season (the one with the most points won in an event in which he/she was ranked 2nd) to qualify, so that there is the same number of players in Bali as there is international series events.

c) In case of someone winning his second IS event, the runner-up from that particular event gets to qualify, even if he's not the best runner-up of the season.

d) Only winners of IS events who haven't qualified for Doha and those players who have earned the most points overall on IS events get to play Bali, for a total of 11 players (same as the number of IS events) - so if 4 IS winners qualify, the other 7 places will go to players who have earned the most points playing IS events.

So give your votes for a), b) or c), or give an idea on the subject if you have one.

---

Another problem is that we never decided if players will be allowed to qualify for both, Bali and Doha (in real tennis that's not possible), so here are some options/ideas:

1) Anyone can qualify for both.

2) If you play Doha you can't play Bali.


Those are all of the ideas I came up with, so cast your votes (a simple post with something like "a and 2" or "c and 1" will do) or give some opinions if you think things should be done otherwise.

:wavey:

Here's how a list of qualifiers by tournament looks at the moment (I'm also listing runner-ups, just in case we decide to allow some of them to qualify as well):

Brisbane
1st *Jean*, 2nd Drake1980
Acapulco
1st Lover_of_myskina, 2nd *Jean*
Monterrey
1st Elle-marie, 2nd Tennisfan_77
Ponte Vedra Beach
1st Tennisfan_77, 2nd Tales
Birmingham
1st Tennisfan_77, 2nd Gemeos
Bastad
1st Ma re, 2nd Sasja
Prague
1st KittyTennis, 2nd Volume3d
Portoroz
1st Broseghini, 2nd Drake1980

WhoAmI?
Jul 6th, 2010, 05:14 PM
My 2 cents: only winners would qualify to Bali. The ones qualifying for Doha, can't play Bali, but if someone in the top 8 has won an International, then give it's place to the runner-up.

2) Anyone can qualify and qualifiers for Doha are decided after Bali has been played (not before, like in option 1).
I don't understand this one. Isn't Bali played after Doha? Or what did you mean??

ma re
Jul 6th, 2010, 05:22 PM
^^ I had a brain-freeze, so disregard the quoted part, I corrected my post. So your vote would be C and 2, right?

WhoAmI?
Jul 6th, 2010, 05:51 PM
Yes it's C* 2 :)


*runner-up qualifies if the person who won the event qualifies for Doha.

Sasja
Jul 11th, 2010, 09:18 AM
I also like C and 2 :

C: In case of someone winning his second IS event, the runner-up from that particular event gets to qualify, even if he's not the best runner-up of the season.

2: If you play Doha you can't play Bali.


Txs for the great ideas ma re. I think it's great to work towards Doha and Bali :D

Tales
Jul 11th, 2010, 10:49 AM
A2 + if the winner plays Doha, the runner up takes the place, but not if one player(who will play Bali) won two events.

We need to decide for bonus points distribution for both YEC and Bali and possible someway to not have everyone end up with the same points. Especially in Bali where there are only 7 matches to pick. I was thinking we guess the games for every match, YEC too, and the one who got closes recieves one additional point(only one person), doubling the amount of points you can get. That would increase the chances for not ending up with a lot of ties. I haven't thought about bonus points yet, but in the real tour, YEC and Bali are worth more than Premier 5 and International tournaments respectively.

ma re
Jul 11th, 2010, 04:07 PM
Tales, what about the case when both, winner and runner up, will play Doha (it's possible that'll happen with at least some of the events)? Get the third best to qualify?

As for bonus points, there's still plenty of time to decide on that, but I remember coming up with point distribution for these events some months ago and posting it in one of the threads, but I'll have to find it. I remember I made them in such a way that both tournaments are larger than Premier events, and that Doha gives more points than even grand slams (if I remember correctly).

And what do you mean by "only 7 matches to pick" in Bali? Last year they had 4 groups, 3 round-robin matches was played in each group and then semis and finals - that's a total of 15 matches.

About picking games for every match - what do you think about guessing the number of sets in which a player will win? For example, if you say someone will win in two and you get it right, you win 2 points, but if you say it'll be in three and she wins in two, you get only 1 point (you get nothing if you miss it entirely, of course). That should lower the chance of ties.

WhoAmI?
Jul 11th, 2010, 04:29 PM
And what do you mean by "only 7 matches to pick" in Bali? Last year they had 4 groups, 3 round-robin matches was played in each group and then semis and finals - that's a total of 15 matches.



Bali isn't in round-robin format this year:
Instead of the round-robin format used during the 2009 event, players will now have just one opportunity to advance to the semi-finals in an all-or-nothing knockout. The Tournament shall consist of a singles draw of 8 players (including two (2) wild card spots) in a single elimination format to be determined by the WTA.

So it's indeed just 7 matches.

ma re
Jul 11th, 2010, 05:48 PM
^^ Missed that bit of info. Thnx!

I guess we'll have to figure something out to make this tourney as interesting as possible, but I think guessing sets could still be implemented to reduce the chance of ties.

Anyway, two votes for C and 2 and one for A and 2. I guess we'll see what majority thinks in the weeks to come before we decide on anything.

ma re
Jul 12th, 2010, 06:00 PM
Here's an idea for point distribution in Bali. It's something similar to what Tales suggested. Players try to guess the number of games in ever of the seven matches played, and those who guess the winner get the points.

But how much...my suggestion is that if we, for example have 12 players in Tipping Bali, the one who got closest with the number of games (but also gets the winner right) gets 12 points. The one who was second best gets 11 and so on. We do that for every match and there's a very small chance of ties.

In the end, we add bonus points to those already won during the tournament, and my suggestion is that the winner gets 300, the runner up 225, those placed 3rd and 4th 175 each, those ranked between #5 and #8 125 each and all the rest 100 each. That way players could earn more points in Bali than on premier tournaments, but less than on grand slams.

Håkon
Jul 18th, 2010, 12:03 PM
Here's an idea for point distribution in Bali. It's something similar to what Tales suggested. Players try to guess the number of games in ever of the seven matches played, and those who guess the winner get the points.

But how much...my suggestion is that if we, for example have 12 players in Tipping Bali, the one who got closest with the number of games (but also gets the winner right) gets 12 points. The one who was second best gets 11 and so on. We do that for every match and there's a very small chance of ties.

n00b thoughts :angel:

I think you'd get more than 75 % who gets the winner right in most matches, so if someone has say 4 & 6 points they're beaten by someone who only tips one match and gets 12. It may even out, but I think you're likely to get a winner with fewer tips correct...

May I suggest we tip sets instead? But as 2-0 is more common than 2-1, you get more points for tipping 2-1 right? Something like

3pts if 2-1 win correct
2pts if 2-0 win

(and then 4/3 for SF and 6/4 for the final?)

Personally I'd slightly prefer A2 as qualifying rule, but I don't mind C2 either

ma re
Jul 18th, 2010, 02:03 PM
Sam, I see your concers about my idea of point distribution and you may be right to some degree.

However, what you suggest at the end of your post is very similar to the idea I proposed in post #7, last paragraph. What do you think about that?

Håkon
Jul 18th, 2010, 02:35 PM
However, what you suggest at the end of your post is very similar to the idea I proposed in post #7, last paragraph. What do you think about that?

Must not have read that post properly :o I like that system too, it depends how complicated you want it :) And then the final can have the normal 'games' tiebreaker that we use in all other tournaments. :)

ma re
Aug 27th, 2010, 04:19 PM
I got another idea and edited the initial post with an "option d)", so feel free to say what do you think about it. I think that this would probably be the best solution as to whom to let play Bali. So that one would suggest any winner of IS event that doesen't end the season inside top8, and that other places are filled with the most successful players of IS events for a total of 11.

Hele.
Aug 27th, 2010, 05:44 PM
I think the best option is that best 8 ranked players who not play YEC play here. If there will not be enough players then there should play the best ranked players without an international title who not play YEC. ;)

ma re
Aug 27th, 2010, 05:55 PM
^^ But the whole point is that winners of IS events are the ones who play this tournament...:confused: If best 8 ranked who don't qualify for Doha play here, than some of the people who won IS titles won't get in and I don't think that's a really good idea.

WhoAmI?
Aug 27th, 2010, 06:02 PM
I like option d) :)

elle-marie
Aug 28th, 2010, 10:27 AM
I choose option d) too.

And:
2) If you play Doha you can't play Bali.

I agree.

Hele.
Aug 28th, 2010, 12:08 PM
^^ But the whole point is that winners of IS events are the ones who play this tournament...:confused: If best 8 ranked who don't qualify for Doha play here, than some of the people who won IS titles won't get in and I don't think that's a really good idea.

I think on best 8 ranked players who won an international tournament but not playing YEC! ;)

ma re
Aug 28th, 2010, 12:16 PM
I think on best 8 ranked players who won an international tournament but not playing YEC! ;)

We probably wouldn't get 8 players that way, cause so far we've played 8 such events, but four of those were won by people who are currently inside top8 (and another one by a player very close to top8:)), and there's only 3 IS tournaments to go so...

Hele.
Aug 28th, 2010, 12:19 PM
We probably wouldn't get 8 players that way, cause so far we've played 8 such events, but four of those were won by people who are currently inside top8 (and another one by a player very close to top8:)), and there's only 3 IS tournaments to go so...

If there will not be enough players then there should play the best ranked players without an international title who not play YEC.

Gêmeos
Aug 28th, 2010, 12:48 PM
D is ok for me: )

no-hay-igual
Aug 28th, 2010, 12:51 PM
I do agree with what Helena is saying in parts, and regarding rule D, I was thinking if it is still possible to do race points of IS events only and the top 8 players qualify (or more as this way it would be possible), that way you have the people in Bali who have performed the best in IS events. I'm not sure whether I like the idea of if the winner and runner up of an IS event play Doha then the third person gets a shot, because this person might have only played one tournament and ranked around 50 in the world. I'm just not sure about that one, as there would be more *dedicated* players who deserve it. However, I definately agree with rule 2. If you play Doha you cannot play Bali.

no-hay-igual
Aug 28th, 2010, 12:52 PM
^^ when i say top 8 players qualify, i mean after the winners have qualified.

ma re
Aug 28th, 2010, 01:05 PM
and regarding rule D, I was thinking if it is still possible to do race points of IS events only and the top 8 players qualify (or more as this way it would be possible), that way you have the people in Bali who have performed the best in IS events.

That's basically what I suggested under "option d" - those who have earned the most points on IS events + winners of IS events that haven't qualified for Doha. As to how many players to have in Bali, we might have 8 as that many will play the actual tournament, or we might have 11, like one player representing each IS event that we've played (I'm fine with either, or if there's another idea...).

no-hay-igual
Aug 28th, 2010, 01:10 PM
oooooo i like 11, each one representing an IS. Yes I like that a lot. I agree with this rule, one of the fairest ways to do it.

ronim1
Aug 28th, 2010, 02:04 PM
[QUOTE=Gêmeos;18403145]D is ok for me: )[/QUOTE


I second this.

ma re
Aug 28th, 2010, 05:17 PM
SUMMARY OF THE IDEAS SO FAR:

- generally, we all agree that if a player qualifies for Doha, he/she shouldn't be allowed to play Bali, so unless someone shows up to object this, consider this to be settled.

- Sasja: only winners of IS events that finish the year outside of top8 qualify; if a winner of an IS qualifies for Doha, his runner-up takes his place
- Tales: same as Sasja, but also: if a player that plays Bali won 2 events, no runner-up qualifies instead of him
- SamR03A: only and exclusively winnners of IS events qualify for Bali (except those who play Doha), regardless of anything
- ma re, WhoAmI?, elle-marie, Gemeos, no-hay-igual, ronim1: winners of IS events who don't play Doha get to qualify, other spots are fulfilled with the players who earned the most points playing IS events
- tennisfan_77: 8 best ranked winners of IS events who don't play Doha get to qualify; if there's not enough of them, those best ranked without an IS title get to play.

Just wanted to sum up everything that was suggested so far. Looks like one of the ideas is so far favored by the most players, and if it stays like that I'll soon post "Road to Bali", where we'll have weekly updates of potential qualifiers.

Hele.
Aug 28th, 2010, 09:28 PM
d) is also ok for me! :)

Jose.
Aug 29th, 2010, 02:45 PM
D and 2 are the best options. ;)

Inktrailer
Sep 1st, 2010, 02:22 AM
I find it hard to udnerstand all of this:(

But fo rme, I know we have the rankings for how we've all scored over the year, I'd have thought that top 8 play Doha and next 8 play Bali, regardless of who won IS series. Some people may only have played a few times all year and get in to Bali, whilst others who have played every week miss out because someone happened to have won a particular tournament.

Hope that makes some kind of sense:)

ma re
Sep 1st, 2010, 08:00 AM
^^ That's a good argument Ink, but winning an IS event is crucial for qualifying for this tournament even in real tennis. As it's stated on the WTA site: "Eight players who have captured at least one International tournament during the year and who are not participating in singles at the year-end Sony Ericsson Championships - Doha 2010 will qualify for the event.".
Anyway, it will most likely be a system where those who have earned the most points on IS events get to qualify (sort of like a race) alongside the IS winners, so it's unlikely that many of the top16 will miss out (and we'll let 11 players in instead of 8 so...). And there's still three IS tournaments left to be played so a lot of opportunities to get in.

Inktrailer
Sep 2nd, 2010, 08:03 AM
That's grand, just wanted to put my thoughts forward, seeing as you put so much effort into running all of this:)

ma re
Oct 9th, 2010, 12:45 PM
After much thought and discussions I think I have figured out a good point distribution system for Bali:

- we guess not only the winner of the match, but also the score of the match in sets (example, 2:1 for Jankovic, 2:0 for Petrova...)
- in the quarterfinal matches; getting both, the winner and the score right, gets you 5 points, getting just the winner right but not the score 4 points, and not getting either the winner nor the score, 3 points
- in the semifinals; winner+score 6 points, just the winner 5 points, neither of the two, 4 points
- in the finals; winner+score 7 points, just the winner 6 points, neither of the two, 5 points
- we also guess the number of games in the finals, like we usually do, to use as a tie-breaker (example: 2:0 for Dementieva, 19 games)
- bonus points are as follows...180 for the winner (more than for IS, less than for Premier), 150 for the runner-up, 120 for 3rd and 4th, 75 for 5th to 8th place and 25 for those ranked between 9th and 11th.

Now to explain a few things. There will be only 7 matches played in Bali, so using our standard system would get us some problems. For instance, if some players don't get bonus points in Bali, there's a risk that those players will (for example, for finishing 9th) get less points in Bali than for finishing at the same place in some ordinary IS event like Brisbane or Tashkent (because there's less matches to play). That's why I wanted to make sure that players don't "go home" with less points than they would get for the same finish on one of the tournaments we played leading up to Bali, cause after all this is kind of an exclusive event for which you have to qualify by being great during the whole year, so it's only fair to reward that. So with this system, no one will end up with less than 50 points (25 for picks and 25 bonus points), even if they don't get anything right and finish last, but also there's no chance that someone wins more than 219 (39 for picks, 180 bonus) points, which is between what we get in IS/Premier 5 events and Premier Mandatory events with large draws.

Also, because we will be guessing the number of sets in all those matches, there's a lesser chance of ties, cause there are 4 possibilities (player A in 2, player B in 2, player A in 3 or player B in 3) to choose from for every match instead of two.

If no one objects, I'd like to make this official.

WhoAmI?
Oct 9th, 2010, 05:50 PM
I was just about to ask why reward points to the one that got no correct picks, but you explained it. No objections:)

Tales
Oct 9th, 2010, 09:37 PM
I'm too tired/lazy to understand it all but I guess it is ok. Since this is the first time it's impossible to know what works best right now, so we should review after the tournament. Same with Doha.

Just one thing, why give points for guessing wrong?

ma re
Oct 10th, 2010, 07:57 AM
Just one thing, why give points for guessing wrong?

Because there's so little matches to be played here, and because this is one of those tournaments for which you work all year to qualify, so as a reward there's this "guarantee" that you'll at least earn some points here.

ma re
Oct 11th, 2010, 07:50 AM
Tales and I were just writing eachother about points for Doha and Bali and he noticed (which I haven't) that I made some mistakes in my suggestion for this point distribution system, like giving more bonus points than what we get for winning a Premier series event, which is really too much for this tournament. So here are some changes...:

1. Five, seven and ten points for QF matches.
2. Seven, ten and twelve points for SF matches.
3. Ten, twelve and fifteen points for the finals.
4. Bonus points, 140 for the winner, 100 for the runner-up, 70 for 3rd & 4th and 50 for 5th to 8th.

No bonus points for 9th to 11th, but because of more points given for tipping matches that's not really a problem now, cause no player can win less than 44 points. The largest number of points one can win stays at previously mentioned 219.

ronim1
Oct 15th, 2010, 07:30 AM
Looking good