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fantic
Apr 1st, 2010, 11:29 PM
Don't get me wrong, Makiri and Vera are my favs, and as a NCAA fan I also like Anastasia Petukhova

and Maria Mosolova.

But what's wrong with these ladies? And in ATP you have..you know :tape: (who recently retired)

Is it because they ARE Russians? Hot-blooded...temper? (I just tend to remind myself of Dostoyevsky's novels :tape: )

Or their Russian Training?

Or is it just an individual problem?

Maybe they are not that good anyway?

Any insights, please? :)

BournemouthBoy
Apr 1st, 2010, 11:33 PM
i think being a headcase is a sterotype we label on most Russian players, most are no differnt from the rest of the world, it's the serbs i worry about

Slutiana
Apr 1st, 2010, 11:36 PM
Because they didn't move to France as a baby/become an American in everything but nationality.

rrfnpump
Apr 1st, 2010, 11:48 PM
Another important question would be "Why cant they serve?"

Cp6uja
Apr 2nd, 2010, 12:02 AM
i think being a headcase is a sterotype we label on most Russian players, most are no differnt from the rest of the world, it's the serbs i worry aboutIn last 25 years from under-10M Serbia coming 3 WTA#1 players. You should to worry about some big countries with big tennis tradition which don't have for example even any seeded WTA player at slams in last 25 years

:wavey:

tennisbum79
Apr 2nd, 2010, 12:04 AM
This is not limited to women either.
Youzny is curently melting down against soldering we speak

Safin, is probably the extreme of the men.

On the other extreme, Davidenko is always calm and collected.

goldenlox
Apr 2nd, 2010, 12:09 AM
There are 3 players holding majors. One is Russian. The only women who is currently the Gold medal Olympic SINGLES champion is Russian.
So 2 of the 4 women holding the biggest titles are Russian.

Why is the rest of the world such headcases?

SIN DIOS NI LEY
Apr 2nd, 2010, 12:11 AM
They are still doing better than other players from non-headcases countries

Melange
Apr 2nd, 2010, 12:11 AM
its the vodka and the long winter *hugs Chak protectively*

Cp6uja
Apr 2nd, 2010, 12:15 AM
Sharapova "head" is one of her biggest weapons and Myskina is player which won slam and reach WTA#2 against all odds so she knows obviously to use all possibility, Kuznetsova has so many headcase moments, but also fact is that Sveta won 2 slams when nobody take her seriously (+ one more unexpected USO final). Safina (former#1) and Dementieva (Olympic Champion) is headcases only at Grand Slam finals - at their best they both is examples of ultra-consistent players, including at all other non-GS finals.

Slutiana
Apr 2nd, 2010, 12:25 AM
There are 3 players holding majors. One is Russian. The only women who is currently the Gold medal Olympic SINGLES champion is Russian.
So 2 of the 4 women holding the biggest titles are Russian.

Why is the rest of the world such headcases?
they probably wouldn't be holding those trophies if the winners played a non-Russian in the final. :tape:

goldenlox
Apr 2nd, 2010, 12:38 AM
Then why were everyone else in those draws such headcases?
All the other countries in the world combined, the best they could do was win 2 QF's
In the Olympics, the rest of the world did not win ANY singles medal

fantic
Apr 2nd, 2010, 01:08 AM
ok, obviously I approached it too seriously :p my apologies ;)

clearly Russia produces LOTS of talented players, it's just..

maybe the recent Russian meltdowns at the slams made too big of an impression upon me :lol:

miffedmax
Apr 2nd, 2010, 02:35 AM
they probably wouldn't be holding those trophies if the winners played a non-Russian in the final. :tape:

Which begs the question of how did two Russians end up in the finals.

rjd1111
Apr 2nd, 2010, 04:25 AM
There are 3 players holding majors. One is Russian. The only women who is currently the Gold medal Olympic SINGLES champion is Russian.
So 2 of the 4 women holding the biggest titles are Russian.

Why is the rest of the world such headcases?


" The only women who is currently the Gold medal Olympic SINGLES
champion is Russian."


And that Woman has never won a GS and is one of
the biggest headcases in history

hellas719
Apr 2nd, 2010, 05:24 AM
Cp6uja and his statistics :haha:

PizzaMan
Apr 2nd, 2010, 10:00 AM
Safina (former#1) and Dementieva (Olympic Champion) is headcases only at Grand Slam finals - at their best they both is examples of ultra-consistent players, including at all other non-GS finals.

You must have missed the Olympic gold medal match between those two. Their head cases were clearly evident in that match, the worst gold medal match ever, both of them tried to lose multiple times, Dinara slammed rackets, and neither seemed to want to win what with all of the unforced errors and choking going on. I don't enjoy saying that, since I love Lena, but I have to call it like I see it. I was still quite pleased that she won, though.

I agree with you that Sharapova is mentally strong, but as someone posted above, she's American in all but nationality, and may therefore have a different mindset than her fellow Russians (not that Americans can't be headcases too, but those that are manifest it differently than the Russians do). (Although Kournicova becoming American in all but nationality didn't help her all that much, but I don't think she was a head case either, she just isn't as talented as Sharpie).

But I think the Russians are great players, be they headcases or not, or Americanized or not. And I think they're among the most interesting players too (in part because many of them ARE headcases).

silyaunWILLIAMS
Apr 2nd, 2010, 10:09 AM
I wouldn't say that Safina or Lena are headcases, it's just that their opponents in grand slam finals are so tough. Safina lost to an in form Ivanovic, serving goddess Serena and clay GOAT Svetlana. But Wimby vs Venus, I was expecting closer match than 6-1 6-0.

I'm gonna check up on Lena.

Slutiana
Apr 2nd, 2010, 10:11 AM
Then why were everyone else in those draws such headcases?
All the other countries in the world combined, the best they could do was win 2 QF's
In the Olympics, the rest of the world did not win ANY singles medal

Which begs the question of how did two Russians end up in the finals.
I know :weirdo: (The smilie was not aimed at you, Max :angel:). All i'm saying is that they're great players and that is how they made the finals but historically it is in the big finals where they really break down. Safina in all of her big finals, Demented in all of her big finals (sorry Max :sobbing:) & Kuznetsova in all of her big finals. The fact that the only time Russians who aren't named Maria Sharapova have won these big titles is when they played a Russian in a final has to count for something.

goldenlox
Apr 2nd, 2010, 10:14 AM
Kuznetsova has won 2 slams and 2 super tier I's.
She has played good finals.

As I said in another thread, Justine Serena and Venus have won about 26 of the last 40 majors.

None of the Russians are as good as those 3.
But they do pretty well.

Already this year, Lena has 2 titles, Vera, Alisa and Anastasia have titles.

Dinara is not even back on the tour yet. Its only early April.

Worry about the rest of the world. A lot of underachieving from every nook and cranny of the globe.

Daniel
Apr 2nd, 2010, 02:08 PM
"

And that Woman has never won a GS and is one of
the biggest headcases in history
Petrova or Dementieva? :confused:

AnnaK_4ever
Apr 2nd, 2010, 02:48 PM
The only women who is currently the Gold medal Olympic SINGLES champion is Russian.

Ok, "women" and "gold medal champion" are just typos, I suppose, but, by using "the only", are you implying there could've been 3 or 4 or 78 players who are currently gold medallists in singles?

brent-o
Apr 2nd, 2010, 02:54 PM
I think many players on the tour are headcases. But we label Russians as the headcases because there are so many on the tour.

Cp6uja
Apr 2nd, 2010, 03:12 PM
Many of Russian WTA stars deserved that "headcase" nickname time to time - but not in general.

From my point of view real BIG HEADCASE is player which reach much less titles or career high ranking than her talent deserved, or player which so often choke losing matches when result is totally in her favor at some point. So for me Kim Clijsters and Lindsay Davenport which reach (so far) just 5 GS titles together despite theirs potential is more "headcases" than any of Russians!

- 22yo Sharapova maybe deserve even more than 3 different GS titles so far, but reason why she not do that (so far) you should find in her shoulders, not in her head for sure.
- Sveta is so often called here like headcase, but are 2 slam titles from 4 GS finals so far really that bad from player of her level?
- Safina reach #1 and three slam finals. IMO its not that bad achievement at all for her.
- Dementieva is most successful tennis player in singles at Olympics in modern history (gold and silver), and she reach 2 GS finals and TOP3. Is that really so bad for Lena even if she really deserved 1 GS title and at least one week at #2?
- Myskina won slam at her worst surface and reach #2. It's miracle if You ask me.
- With no weapons Zvonareva reach TOP5, won Premier mandatory event, played in YEC final... what do You expected more of her, especially with her so often injury problems.
- Petrova at her best reach TOP3 and be real WTA treat in that half-season before hard injury finished that her "peak of" career episode.
- Chakvetadze is now example for headcase player, but that is more connected with gun robbery of her family house (something like Seles Hambourg experience which changed her mental game). Before that incident Chaky (with no weapons) reach TOP5 and won all of her 7 careers finals till that date.

laurie
Apr 2nd, 2010, 05:17 PM
Many of Russian WTA stars deserved that "headcase" nickname time to time - but not in general.

From my point of view real BIG HEADCASE is player which reach much less titles or career high ranking than her talent deserved, or player which so often choke losing matches when result is totally in her favor at some point. So for me Kim Clijsters and Lindsay Davenport which reach (so far) just 5 GS titles together despite theirs potential is more "headcases" than any of Russians!

- 22yo Sharapova maybe deserve even more than 3 different GS titles so far, but reason why she not do that (so far) you should find in her shoulders, not in her head for sure.
- Sveta is so often called here like headcase, but are 2 slam titles from 4 GS finals so far really that bad from player of her level?
- Safina reach #1 and three slam finals. IMO its not that bad achievement at all for her.
- Dementieva is most successful tennis player in singles at Olympics in modern history (gold and silver), and she reach 2 GS finals and TOP3. Is that really so bad for Lena even if she really deserved 1 GS title and at least one week at #2?
- Myskina won slam at her worst surface and reach #2. It's miracle if You ask me.
- With no weapons Zvonareva reach TOP5, won Premier mandatory event, played in YEC final... what do You expected more of her, especially with her so often injury problems.
- Petrova at her best reach TOP3 and be real WTA treat in that half-season before hard injury finished that her "peak of" career episode.
- Chakvetadze is now example for headcase player, but that is more connected with gun robbery of her family house (something like Seles Hambourg experience which changed her mental game). Before that incident Chaky (with no weapons) reach TOP5 and won all of her 7 careers finals till that date.

You make some very interesting points.

I think the Russians are noticed more simply because they are so animated on the Tennis court - they let their emotions all hang out, which can be highly amusing to watch, and highly frustrating to watch.

But there's a reason why they have won so many Fed cups in the last few years, they have strength in depth.

But in reality, as you said, when you analyze each player individually, none of these players have a game that defines great or legend status, the closest might be Svetlana; in her case you can make a case for not reaching her potential, she has never even made it to number 1 so far.

Nadia Petrova has the big weapons but her downfall has always been her relative lack of movement, she's not a naturally quick athletic player like a Mauresmo for instance. I think my opinions on Safina's "relative" talents are well documented so I won't bother to repeat them here.

The other thing, as someone else suggested, is the serve. The Russians just can't serve properly!! That's a huge issue for them, preventing them as a collective doing better than they have so far. Petrova has a good serve, Sharapova had a good serve (what a pity for her eh?).

Volcana
Apr 2nd, 2010, 05:49 PM
The Russians aren't headcases, at least not as we use the term in the northeastern USA. No more so than anybody else. The only one who really met that description was Kournikova.

Safina was a very consistent performer, who couldn't do a blessed thing if you could beat her 'plan A'. If you can reach her groundstrokes and return them, she couldn't do anything to hurt you. She reached #1 and made multiple slam finals because that's a big 'if'.

Kuznetsova, if anything, is an overachiever. She's only won 12 tournaments her whole career, but two of them are slams. Arguably a player who's tools aren't the best, but who really knows how to martial what she's got in a big spot.

Dementieva has a huge hole in her game. Her serve is very unreliable. Yet she's been a consistent top ten performer for a decade. And don't even start with 'why doesn't she fix it?' If it was that easy, Venus would have Serena's 2nd serve.

Zvonareva really had gotten her act together before she got injured last year.

Sharapova is coming off a serious injury to the primary joint in a tennis players body. For all intents and pruposes, she's learning to play tennis with another shoulder grafted onto her body in place of her own. That's a physical problem, not a mental one.

Petrova, to me, is a under-achiever, but nine career titles, including a couple Tier I's/Premiers, is actually a very good career.

Kleybanova is the furthest thing from a 'headcase'. Max effort every point, never quits.

Kirlienko is playing by far the best tennis of her career.

The only one of those players showing some mental defect in their game is Petrova. SOme of them, Sharapova and Safina notably, are inflexible. Very good 'A' game, but if you can beat it, they can't do anything else to stop you. But that's a physical problem, not a mental one. Look at Venus Williams 1999, and Venus Williams 2009. Completely different player, physically. Mentally, still as stubborn about sticking to her game as ever.

miffedmax
Apr 2nd, 2010, 06:06 PM
I love Lena. I worship Lena. I probably have an unhealthy borderline stalker obsession with Lena.

But she comes by her headcase reputation the old fashioned way. She's earned it. She loses tight matches, despite playing great tennis all the way through (see Wimby, last year). She loses by blowing huge leads for no apparent reason. (RG '08, AO '05 vs. Schynder). She blows leads because she lets her opponent mess with her head (USO '05). She shows up on big stages and simply vaporizes (Miami'04, there may have been another match that year where that happened by I don't remember it).

The fact that she turns around and guts out tough wins like Kremlin Cup in '07, the Olympics in '08 and the SF in Paris and New York in '04--I mean really hardcore stuff--or even administers beatdowns on occasions means she's EVEN more of a headcase.

Volcana
Apr 4th, 2010, 12:03 AM
I love Lena. I worship Lena. I probably have an unhealthy borderline stalker obsession with Lena.

But she comes by her headcase reputation the old fashioned way. She's earned it. She loses tight matches, despite playing great tennis all the way through (see Wimby, last year). She loses by blowing huge leads for no apparent reason. (RG '08, AO '05 vs. Schynder). She blows leads because she lets her opponent mess with her head (USO '05).Flaws, when they are obvious, loom large. Venus' second serve, for example.

Dementieva does NOT have an advantage when she serves. You're going to lose leads when that happens.Not a mental problem. A phsysical problem.

miffedmax
Apr 4th, 2010, 02:01 AM
I disagree. Her serve is often actually decent to pretty good in the early rounds of tournaments, or at smaller events. At practice sessions, it's reported she has amazing consistency and power.

It disappears and goes wonky at big events and big matches. Watch her enough, and you'll see that even now, when her serve has greatly improved, in big matches she'll still revert to that godawful slice circa 2004 second serve when she's nervous.

Her injury-altered serve motion is blamed for her service woes in the middle of her career (roughly '03-'07) but even in her early years she had a rotten second serve, famously remarking after her run to the semis of the '00 U.S. Open that her grandmother probably had a better second serve.

She gets the yips. It's not a physical problem at this point. It was in '03 when she was hurt, but it's not a case like Sharapova where the injury led to a permanent change in her serve. Lena's actually got a better serve now than before her injury. Until she's in the later stages of a big tournament. Or draws a former #1 in the second fucking round...

fantic
Apr 4th, 2010, 02:09 AM
I disagree. Her serve is often actually decent to pretty good in the early rounds of tournaments, or at smaller events. At practice sessions, it's reported she has amazing consistency and power.


Why do I find this funny :sobbing:

Lena D will win USO :rocker2:

Number19
Apr 4th, 2010, 02:28 AM
Why do I find this funny :sobbing:

Lena D will win USO :rocker2:

It does seem funny but I saw a video of her hitting all four corners taking out tennis ball containers with four shots. But put a tennis player there and a high tension match and she's fucked.

Apoleb
Apr 4th, 2010, 02:54 AM
Maybe the culture is not as individualistic as in other places? :p