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tennisbum79
Mar 31st, 2010, 08:23 PM
This tournament has shown that IW was an exception.
As you may recall, Woznicki, Jankovic, and A. Radwanska were all in the semi at IW.

At the time, a discussion thread was created to underline the fact this was a rare occurence.

Needless to say , many disagree.
Miami has confirmed my assertion.


Here is the original disucssion thread
http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?p=17445780#post17445780

goldenlox
Mar 31st, 2010, 08:25 PM
Next week starts the clay season. I thought Caro played huge. Lets see how she does on clay.

LoLex
Mar 31st, 2010, 08:25 PM
Overall they did better than Henin and Clijsters who both lost early in California.

changel
Mar 31st, 2010, 08:26 PM
Next week starts the clay season. I thought Caro played huge. Lets see how she does on clay.

As if she was the player to beat, give US a break.

Chloť&TheRubySun
Mar 31st, 2010, 08:38 PM
What is a pusher? I know everyone probably already knows but I can't seem to find out :shrug:

LoLex
Mar 31st, 2010, 08:39 PM
What is a pusher? I know everyone probably already knows but I can't seem to find out :shrug:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pusher_(tennis)

AcesHigh
Mar 31st, 2010, 08:41 PM
Radwanska and DEFINITELY Jankovic are not pushers.

Aravanecaravan
Mar 31st, 2010, 08:41 PM
What is a pusher? I know everyone probably already knows but I can't seem to find out :shrug:

A derogatory term for a player who has a consistent baseline game but no really big weapons to end points.

People here toss around the words "pusher" and "ball basher" to pigeon-hole players they don't like, without really taking into account that players adopt game styles that take best advantage of their physical tools.

They're just labels for people who feel the need to have labels.

Hugh.
Mar 31st, 2010, 08:42 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pusher_(tennis)

Obviously written by people off here.

Chloť&TheRubySun
Mar 31st, 2010, 08:44 PM
A derogatory term for a player who has a consistent baseline game but no really big weapons to end points.

People here toss around the words "pusher" and "ball basher" to pigeon-hole players they don't like, without really taking into account that players adopt game styles that take best advantage of their physical tools.

They're just labels for people who feel the need to have labels.

Thank you.

fouc
Mar 31st, 2010, 08:55 PM
This tournament has shown that IW was an exception.
As you may recall, Woznicki, Jankovic, and A. Radwanska were all in the semi at IW.

At the time, a discussion thread was created to underline the fact this was a rare occurence.
Needless to say , many disagree.
Miami has confirmed my assertion.

Here is the original disucssion thread
http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?p=17445780#post17445780

It's more you jumping to the conclusions after each and every tourney, than some relevant discussion. :o

The fact is that ballbashers are prone to make more unforced errors, so it's not that it's all under their racket. Wickmayer is a good example here. When she is all over the place and makes relatively high amount of UEs, you can't really say she played bad - it is precisely her tennis. If she can raise her level high enough to avoid the mistakes, she's going far. If "the pushers" raise their level to take control of the points, they're winning.

And as we can see they are both power players, and "pushers" in the top 20, so it's not like ones are dominating the others :shrug:

madmax
Mar 31st, 2010, 09:01 PM
It's more you jumping to the conclusions after each and every tourney, than some relevant discussion. :o

The fact is that ballbashers are prone to make more unforced errors, so it's not that it's all under their racket. Wickmayer is a good example here. When she is all over the place and makes relatively high amount of UEs, you can't really say she played bad - it is precisely her tennis. If she can raise her level high enough to avoid the mistakes, she's going far. If "the pushers" raise their level to take control of the points, they're winning.

And as we can see they are both power players, and "pushers" in the top 20, so it's not like ones are dominating the others :shrug:

Ok then, let's look at it from other perspective...when was the last time a TRUE pusher won a Grand Slam?:rolleyes: Everyone knows that pushers biggest weapon is consistency, but in order to win something big you need to take destiny into your own hands and dictate the play, otherwise you'll run into some hot ballbasher and get blown off the court. That's the fact of life actually - fortune favours the brave, not the coward ones

tennisbum79
Mar 31st, 2010, 09:03 PM
It's more you jumping to the conclusions after each and every tourney, than some relevant discussion. :o
It is not jumping to concluion if it is borne out to be true most of the time

It's The fact is that ballbashers are prone to make more unforced errors, so it's not that it's all under their racket. Wickmayer is a good example here. When she is all over the place and makes relatively high amount of UEs, you can't really say she played bad - it is precisely her tennis. If she can raise her level high enough to avoid the mistakes, she's going far. If "the pushers" raise their level to take control of the points, they're winning.
I did not say ball bashers, I said power players. there is a difference.
The currently remaining players are all power players.

Stamp Paid
Mar 31st, 2010, 09:05 PM
dxYRRiDhEYg

You got to push until you get it right!

kman
Mar 31st, 2010, 09:05 PM
Overall they did better than Henin and Clijsters who both lost early in California.

This.

Caro = final + quarter final = best overall

tennisbum79
Mar 31st, 2010, 09:08 PM
Overall they did better than Henin and Clijsters who both lost early in California.
That is why IW results were such an abberation

Serena y Monica
Mar 31st, 2010, 09:09 PM
A derogatory term for a player who has a consistent baseline game but no really big weapons to end points.

People here toss around the words "pusher" and "ball basher" to pigeon-hole players they don't like, without really taking into account that players adopt game styles that take best advantage of their physical tools.

They're just labels for people who feel the need to have labels.


Every player uses the skill set they possess. The truth is not derogatory.


There have to be words that describe a players stlye of play. Truth be told every top player is a pusher...in that they all have great defensive skills...But the great players are the ones who turn defense into offense and have the added ability to control their own fate. Serena Kim Venus and Justine.

Players pigeon hole themselves. I like Caroline...but I don't like to watch her play...to me she is the worst kind of pusher...one who has the skill set to play aggressively but lacks the courage to take aggressive shots when the chips are down. I dislike Justine who is primarily a pusher as well... the only thing I like about her is her heart...at the first oppurtunity she trys to take her fate in her own hands and will pull the trigger.

tennisbum79
Mar 31st, 2010, 09:20 PM
From wikipedia entry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pusher_(tennis)

In tennis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennis), a pusher is a player who "pushes" back any shot they can chase down, without deliberately hitting a winner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennis_terminology#W). This style of play, likened to a "human backboard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backboard_(tennis))", often tires and frustrates more offensive opponents. Pushers tend to have great success at the lower NTRP rating (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennis_terminology#N) levels. However, they are usually beaten by players with a more aggressive strategy or possess serve-and-volley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serve-and-volley) skills which rob pushers of the time they require to chase down a shot.
The pusher's strategy can sometimes be effective even at the upper levels of the pro game. Brad Gilbert (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brad_Gilbert) is often referred to as the greatest pusher of all time, reaching the top 10 in 1990.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pusher_(tennis)#cite_note-0)

Aravanecaravan
Mar 31st, 2010, 09:22 PM
Every player uses the skill set they possess. The truth is not derogatory.


There have to be words that describe a players stlye of play. Truth be told every top player is a pusher...in that they all have great defensive skills...But the great players are the ones who turn defense into offense and have the added ability to control their own fate. Serena Kim Venus and Justine.

Players pigeon hole themselves. I like Caroline...but I don't like to watch her play...to me she is the worst kind of pusher...one who has the skill set to play aggressively but lacks the courage to take aggressive shots when the chips are down. I dislike Justine who is primarily a pusher as well... the only thing I like about her is her heart...at the first oppurtunity she trys to take her fate in her own hands and will pull the trigger.

The mere suggestion that the use of the word "pusher" is not intended to degrade is laughable. Ludicrous.

LoLex
Mar 31st, 2010, 09:22 PM
That is why IW results were an abberation

This tournament has shown that IW was an exception.

What's your point, really? What would you say if Indian Wells was played after Miami? This is just different tournament. We have seen this many times that players who did well in IW then lose early in Miami. Wozniacki and Radwanska still managed to go deep in this tournament. Clijsters and Henin proved they are not capable of playing like this constantly.

aisha
Mar 31st, 2010, 09:24 PM
Brad Gilbert? :tape:

I need to seek his match highlights (or lowlights) right now. :bolt:

tennisbum79
Mar 31st, 2010, 09:28 PM
Brad Gilbert? :tape:

I need to seek his match highlights (or lowlights) right now. :bolt:
He talked so much... I bet he keeps talking during rallies in pratice.
Which fits very well with being content to return the ball.

tennisbum79
Mar 31st, 2010, 09:32 PM
What's your point, really? What would you say if Indian Wells was played after Miami? This is just different tournament. We have seen this many times that players who did well in IW then lose early in Miami. Wozniacki and Radwanska still managed to go deep in this tournament. Clijsters and Henin proved they are not capable of playing like this constantly.
The point was made in the original thread during IW.

That it is rare that pushers, as group, survive in great number as they did in IW ,to reach the quarter or semi-final of any tourenament that include power players.
It is not the indivual players, it the class of players. Pushers vs. Power Players.

Venus, Serena, Carpriati, Davenport, Henin, Clijster, Maria VS. Jankovic, A. Radwanska, Caro, Conchita Martinez, MJF

You can easily see the first group(in any combo of 4) in semi most of the time, but not the second group

That is the point.

Serena y Monica
Mar 31st, 2010, 09:40 PM
The mere suggestion that the use of the word "pusher" is not intended to degrade is laughable. Ludicrous.

I disagree w/you...I don't degrade players whose personalities I like...yet I use the word pusher to describe some players I like.

Now words have connotations that are good and bad and admittedly pusher has negative connatations. But to say Caro is a pusher does not deminish her accomplishments but the fact that she is a pusher limits them.

AcesHigh
Mar 31st, 2010, 09:50 PM
The term "pusher" is degrading and has no place in tennis.

It's obviously degrading especially b/c there are so many other words you could use....and it's popularity is something new.
I don't really quite get it to be honest.

Serena y Monica
Mar 31st, 2010, 10:01 PM
We could use retriever...that word has negative connotations as well. There are no words w/postitive connotations that describe what a pusher does. But if you find it...I'll use it.

AcesHigh
Mar 31st, 2010, 10:03 PM
We could use retriever...that word has negative connotations as well.

No... it doesnt and never has.

Noctis
Mar 31st, 2010, 10:08 PM
This.

Caro = final + quarter final = best overall

your so desparate

tennisforadults
Mar 31st, 2010, 10:09 PM
A derogatory term for a player who has a consistent baseline game but no really big weapons to end points.

People here toss around the words "pusher" and "ball basher" to pigeon-hole players they don't like, without really taking into account that players adopt game styles that take best advantage of their physical tools.

They're just labels for people who feel the need to have labels.

Great post. :clap2:

If the term 'pusher' can be loosely applied to Jankovic, Radwanska and Wozniacki or anyone else with a defensive baseline game, then Martina Hingis will certainly be another 'pusher'.

LoLex
Mar 31st, 2010, 10:11 PM
The point was made in the original thread during IW.

That it is rare that pushers, as group, survive in great number as they did in IW ,to reach the quarter or semi-final of any tourenament that include power players.
It is not the indivual players, it the class of players. Pushers vs. Power Players.

Venus, Serena, Carpriati, Davenport, Henin, Clijster, Maria VS. Jankovic, A. Radwanska, Caro, Conchita Martinez, MJF

You can easily see the first group(in any combo of 4) in semi most of the time, but not the second group

That is the point.

That's a generalization. You try to put players in the groups and compare their achievements. I don't see how it makes Indian Wells the exception.

Serena y Monica
Mar 31st, 2010, 10:12 PM
No... it doesnt and never has.

Huh? U think the word retriever has positive connotations. It doesn't. Dogs retrieve. It's a passive action...it connotes one who acts at the behest of another. OK...it doesn't matter.

kman
Mar 31st, 2010, 10:12 PM
your so desparate

you're so desperately in need of better counter-arguments

AnnaK_4ever
Mar 31st, 2010, 10:14 PM
This tournament has shown that IW was an exception.
As you may recall, Woznicki, Jankovic, and A. Radwanska were all in the semi at IW.

At the time, a discussion thread was created to underline the fact this was a rare occurence.

Needless to say , many disagree.
Miami has confirmed my assertion.


Here is the original disucssion thread
http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?p=17445780#post17445780

Your theory will be confirmed only when/if Roddick loses.

homogenius
Mar 31st, 2010, 10:19 PM
This.

Caro = final + quarter final Jelena = title + 4th round = best overall

Fixed


on topic : these threads are getting OLD

Noctis
Mar 31st, 2010, 10:25 PM
you're so desperately in need of better counter-arguments

I don't need to when the whole forum is lining up to bash her.

AcesHigh
Mar 31st, 2010, 10:33 PM
Huh? U think the word retriever has positive connotations. It doesn't. Dogs retrieve. It's a passive action...it connotes one who acts at the behest of another. OK...it doesn't matter.

:lol: Using dogs as a comparison? A defensive style of play has never inherently been perceived negatively.
It is simply a different style of play and being a "backboard" was often a COMPLIMENT.

This is why people say those who constantly use the term "pusher" don't know tennis very well. A "retriever" implies good defensive skill, good court coverage, and consistency.

A "pusher" means that all a player does is "push" which is a ridiculous term.. implying that somehow "pushing" is not tennis, or not a skill... it does not imply DEFENSE or any kind of skill at all but rather a player only puts the ball back into play.

fantic
Mar 31st, 2010, 10:39 PM
yeah, some does say here that pushing is not tennis :rolleyes:

kman
Mar 31st, 2010, 10:43 PM
Fixed


on topic : these threads are getting OLD

I was talking in comparison to Clijsters and Henin and the other "power players"

Jankovic is a "pusher" too so it does nothing to help TS' case.

Wiggly
Mar 31st, 2010, 10:50 PM
I was talking in comparison to Clijsters and Henin and the other "power players"

Jankovic is a "pusher" too so it does nothing to help TS' case.

Jelena is a counter-pusher. Big difference.
She'll attack once in a while. She'll not wait to be forced to hit a winner to do so.
She will take some risks. A pusher rarely does.

And if someone has a REALLY good day, she has more to offer than her defense altought it's pretty much a lost cause anyways.

But if you're counter-pusher or a true pusher, if someone shows up and put every ball in the court, you're packing your bags in the next hour.

kman
Mar 31st, 2010, 10:59 PM
Jelena is a counter-pusher. Big difference.
She'll attack once in a while. She'll not wait to be forced to hit a winner to do so.
She will take some risks. A pusher rarely does.

And if someone has a REALLY good day, she has more to offer than her defense altought it's pretty much a lost cause anyways.

But if you're counter-pusher or a true pusher, if someone shows up and put every ball in the court, you're packing your bags in the next hour.

The premise of this thread and the referenced thread established Caroline, Jankovic, Radwanska as belonging in the "pusher group" and Henin, Clijsters et al as belonging in the "power group". We're discussing based on that premise. Stop trying to spin things with your made-up terms and pendantic nonsense.

Shvedbarilescu
Mar 31st, 2010, 10:59 PM
A derogatory term for a player who has a consistent baseline game but no really big weapons to end points.

People here toss around the words "pusher" and "ball basher" to pigeon-hole players they don't like, without really taking into account that players adopt game styles that take best advantage of their physical tools.

They're just labels for people who feel the need to have labels.

:bowdown:

This along with AcesHigh's usual outstanding contributions pretty much sum up all my feelings on this topic.

There are a lot of people in this forum who love the idea of a "pusher" vs "ballbasher" debate. I'd say a much better debate would be whether pigeonholing players as either "pushers" or "ballbashers" is an insightful or clever way of looking at tennis or not. And were this 2nd debate to take place I know exactly which side I would take.

Serena y Monica
Mar 31st, 2010, 11:07 PM
:lol: Using dogs as a comparison? A defensive style of play has never inherently been perceived negatively.
It is simply a different style of play and being a "backboard" was often a COMPLIMENT.

This is why people say those who constantly use the term "pusher" don't know tennis very well. A "retriever" implies good defensive skill, good court coverage, and consistency.

A "pusher" means that all a player does is "push" which is a ridiculous term.. implying that somehow "pushing" is not tennis, or not a skill... it does not imply DEFENSE or any kind of skill at all but rather a player only puts the ball back into play.


Good defense is great and all great players need it. But once ur tagged a retriever or pusher or whatever word u choose to use it's perceived as a liability because it denotes that u cannot aggresively challenge ur opponent.

Language changes. So the more modern term pusher does not indicate a lack of understanding of the game nor does it imply a lack of defensive skills. In fact the only thing on display here is ur fundamental lack of understanding the secondary meaning of words.

Black has negative connotations...white has positive connotations. Any word you use that indicates an inability to take charge in sports has a negative submeaning. Aggresive players (bashers) love retrievers (pushers) Because they are in control of the game. ps...many professionals have truly demeaning words for retrievers like pigeon and user friendly...and I would think they have the best understanding of the game.

Burisleif
Mar 31st, 2010, 11:14 PM
your so desparate

you're so desperately in need of better counter-arguments

Dosn't that qualify Wolfy as, well basically, a PUSHER!!!? :confused:

Tennisstar86
Mar 31st, 2010, 11:19 PM
Radwanska and DEFINITELY Jankovic are not pushers.

Jankovic has pushing tendencies.....but i agree she isnt always a pusher...

lestat111
Mar 31st, 2010, 11:32 PM
another "venus/serena has power and should be on atp tour"-thread? :rolleyes: next.