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tennisbum79
Mar 18th, 2010, 11:56 PM
Three of the 4 semi-finalist will be pushers, at varying degree.

What is about Indian Wells that has propelled a category of players, usually flushed out in mid rounds in other tournaments, to rise to the top at the last stage of the tournament?

spencercarlos
Mar 19th, 2010, 12:18 AM
Yeah Indian Wells "sucks" :rolleyes:

Volcana
Mar 19th, 2010, 12:34 AM
Three of the 4 semi-finalist will be pushers, at varying degree.

What is about Indian Wells that has propelled a category of players, usually flushed out in mid rounds in other tournaments, to rise to the top at the last stage of the tournament?My guess would be your premise is flawed. All three of the players already in the semis of this tournament are top ten players. So, by definition, they do NOT represent "a category of players, usually flushed out in mid rounds in other tournaments". They represent a category of player often found in the later rounds of other tournaments. Otherwise they wouldn't have the rankings they have.

SIN DIOS NI LEY
Mar 19th, 2010, 12:46 AM
Mary Joe Fernandez won twice here

Pushers Paradise

tennisbum79
Mar 19th, 2010, 01:16 AM
My guess would be your premise is flawed. All three of the players already in the semis of this tournament are top ten players. So, by definition, they do NOT represent "a category of players, usually flushed out in mid rounds in other tournaments". They represent a category of player often found in the later rounds of other tournaments. Otherwise they wouldn't have the rankings they have.
You are wrong. You are assuming as a group they have done this consistently in the same tournament.
One or maybe 2 of them may have reached semi in different tournaments, rarely 3 out of the 4-semi fainlists.

delicatecutter
Mar 19th, 2010, 01:20 AM
There's only one pusher left in the draw. :weirdo: :wavey:

goldenlox
Mar 19th, 2010, 01:21 AM
Jankovic and Wozniacki were in the last 2 USO finals.
If they're playing well, they are both threats on this surface.
One of them was 2008 #1, and the other is #2 any week now

Rafito.
Mar 19th, 2010, 01:21 AM
There's only one pusher left in the draw. :weirdo: :wavey:

Wozniacki and Radwanska. ;)

iPatty
Mar 19th, 2010, 01:21 AM
There's only one pusher left in the draw. :weirdo: :wavey:

Two pushers and one girl who can hit the ball hard but would rather run around and push the ball while falling on the court and complaining about everything when she is losing.

And then there's Stosur. :o

SIN DIOS NI LEY
Mar 19th, 2010, 01:49 AM
There's only one pusher left in the draw. :weirdo: :wavey:

3 pushers

DOUBLEFIST
Mar 19th, 2010, 01:55 AM
Three of the 4 semi-finalist will be pushers, at varying degree.

What is about Indian Wells that has propelled a category of players, usually flushed out in mid rounds in other tournaments, to rise to the top at the last stage of the tournament?
:lol:

Well, I don't know about 3 of them, but certainly Caro', imho. JJ pushes sometimes but, also can aggressively counter punch. Radwanska has real variety and guile and is quite capable of taking the ball early, using her opponents pace and counter punching.

The only one who's game I find comprehensively boring in there is Caro. JJ to a lesser extent.

nicidle
Mar 19th, 2010, 02:23 AM
the surface is very slow indeed. favouring pushers.

delicatecutter
Mar 19th, 2010, 02:25 AM
Poor Sara. What could have been! :bigcry:

AcesHigh
Mar 19th, 2010, 02:27 AM
JJ and Aga aren't "pushers" Anyway, that term is so ignorant

delicatecutter
Mar 19th, 2010, 02:31 AM
JJ and Aga aren't "pushers" Anyway, that term is so ignorant

I like it when it it used correctly. Sadly, it's just thrown all over the place on this forum. :sad: Any girl who doesn't routinely dictate play is labeled a "pusher" and that is so unfortunate. :o

Volcana
Mar 19th, 2010, 02:51 AM
You are wrong. You are assuming as a group they have done this consistently in the same tournament.
One or maybe 2 of them may have reached semi in different tournaments, rarely 3 out of the 4-semi fainlists.I'm not making that assumption. What I'm saying is, top ten players, on average, make the later rounds of tournaments. Especially without quality points. Remember, you said "usually flushed out in mid rounds". It's not possible to be a top ten player, and 'usually' lose in the mid rounds of tournaments unless you do REALLY well in the slams. And the only player doing really well in all the slams is Serena.Not possible.


Well, wait, if EVERYBODY is usually losing in the mid rounds of tournaments, then the top ten players could be doing that too. But in that case, the style of play has nothing to do with it, so the premise is still flawed.


Before I pursue that, however, IS your argument that players of other styles make the late rounds of tournaments more frequently?

miffedmax
Mar 19th, 2010, 12:08 PM
I don't throw the word pusher around, but I think it's fair to say that JJ, Aga and Caro all prefer a similar (though not identical), more defensive, counterpunching style and that the surface at Indian Wells is more user friendly to them than some other venues. Most of the big bangers are gone, the exception being Stosur and that's in part due to her draw.

You and Tennisbum are both right. All of the remaining players are strong players in their own right, but you rarely see all three of them going this deep at the same tournament and I think the surface (and the fact the WS aren't here) are important factors.

That, and Dementieva being an idiot.

M.P
Mar 19th, 2010, 01:20 PM
the only pusher is Sam Stosur

Shvedbarilescu
Mar 19th, 2010, 01:24 PM
You are wrong. You are assuming as a group they have done this consistently in the same tournament.
One or maybe 2 of them may have reached semi in different tournaments, rarely 3 out of the 4-semi fainlists.

Of course as a group they have not had a history of doing well in the same tournament. But you tell me one single threesome that is consistently getting to the later stages of the same tournaments. Just one.

As it happens Radwanska is becoming the most consistent player in women's tennis for getting to the later stages of what used to be called Tier I events and are now called Premier Mandatory and Premier 5 events. Over the last 4 Premier Mandatory and 5 events, namely Dubai, Tokyo and Beijing along with Indian Wells, 12 names have reached the semi finals. Only two players have reached more than one semifinal. They are Jankovic who has reached two semis and Radwanska who has reached all four.

Crater718
Mar 19th, 2010, 01:24 PM
Not sure if this was posted already:

PUSHER!

Is there any word more dismissive in tennis? Sometimes it's wrapped in a nicer bow. Counter-punching they call it. Defensive. Sometimes it even comes with the compliment that the player really gets so many balls back. They're a "wall." But really what they're saying is, I have guts and try to make things happen and you're passive, you wait for mistakes and you suck.

Or simply, I play real tennis and you don't.

The word carries up the ranks to the very top of the pro tour. Caroline Wozniacki? Pusher. Andy Murray? Pusher. Agnieszka Radwanska? Pusher. But here's the thing I can't help but notice on the ground in Indian Wells. Caroline Wozniacki? Still in the tournament. Andy Murray? Still in the tournament. Agnieszka Radwanska? Still in the tournament. A stark contrast to the bloodbath of heavy hitters - Azarenka, Sharapova, Verdasco, Cilic - who've grossly overhit their way out of the desert.

http://www.tennischannel.com/news/NewsDetails.aspx?newsid=7192

Marilyn Monheaux
Mar 19th, 2010, 01:28 PM
Two pushers and one girl who can hit the ball hard but would rather run around and push the ball while falling on the court and complaining about everything when she is losing.

And then there's Stosur. :o

That's my girl!:inlove:

:lol:

Well, I don't know about 3 of them, but certainly Caro', imho. JJ pushes sometimes but, also can aggressively counter punch. Radwanska has real variety and guile and is quite capable of taking the ball early, using her opponents pace and counter punching.

The only one who's game I find comprehensively boring in there is Caro. JJ to a lesser extent.

Brena
Mar 19th, 2010, 02:03 PM
But Jelena has traditionally done very poorly in IW. She reached a SF in 2008 but lost in early rounds every other time. So I don't know if one can call this surface JJ-friendly.

Beat
Mar 19th, 2010, 02:05 PM
tennisbum79's threads: always a joy and a fountain of intelligence.

tennisbum79
Mar 20th, 2010, 06:40 AM
Believe it or not, when 2 pushers players against each other, they are not immune of the frustration they inflict on power players.

And when it become too much to take, they try to break the monotony by going to moon balling.
And we certainly saw a display of that today.
Although Aga, the one allegedly too gifted to indulge in that kind of play, was the one who constantly lifted the ball at volleyball height when it became too tedious to continue the 30-shots monotonous rallies.

tennisbum79
Mar 20th, 2010, 06:48 AM
You and Tennisbum are both right. All of the remaining players are strong players in their own right, but you rarely see all three of them going this deep at the same tournament and I think the surface (and the fact the WS aren't here) are important factors..
Except for the word "strong", you hit the nail on the head.

Some posters are resolute to promote the tournament above what it achieved on the tennis court, so I don't expect them to acknowledge in this thread.
Wait for another thread where this tournament is no longer in the news, and the same posters would argue this very position.

Lord Choc Ice
Mar 20th, 2010, 06:58 AM
PUSHER!

Is there any word more dismissive in tennis? Sometimes it's wrapped in a nicer bow. Counter-punching they call it. Defensive. Sometimes it even comes with the compliment that the player really gets so many balls back. They're a "wall." But really what they're saying is, I have guts and try to make things happen and you're passive, you wait for mistakes and you suck.

Or simply, I play real tennis and you don't.

The word carries up the ranks to the very top of the pro tour. Caroline Wozniacki? Pusher. Andy Murray? Pusher. Agnieszka Radwanska? Pusher. But here's the thing I can't help but notice on the ground in Indian Wells. Caroline Wozniacki? Still in the tournament. Andy Murray? Still in the tournament. Agnieszka Radwanska? Still in the tournament. A stark contrast to the bloodbath of heavy hitters - Azarenka, Sharapova, Verdasco, Cilic - who've grossly overhit their way out of the desert.

Sharapova was injured, and Verdasco was actually beaten by a player (Berdych) who's just as much a ballbasher. Maybe he should do some research.

It's also a bit funny, Murray, a pusher was beaten today by ballbasher Soderling. :lol:

Ballbashers rule. :lol::rocker:

kman
Mar 20th, 2010, 06:59 AM
constantly lifted the ball at volleyball height when it became too tedious to continue the 30-shots monotonous rallies.

To be fair, she probably did it because she was getting tired or getting dictated to. It's a way to take the pace out of the ball, change the pace etc.

I doubt it was because she was getting bored of it like you imply with the word "monotonous".

To me those long hard-fought rallies were the most exciting part.

tennisbum79
Mar 20th, 2010, 07:14 AM
To be fair, she probably did it because she was getting tired or getting dictated to. It's a way to take the pace out of the ball, change the pace etc.

I doubt it was because she was getting bored of it like you imply with the word "monotonous".

To me those long hard-fought rallies were the most exciting part.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying all long rallies are boring.
Dementieava-Serena ralies always entertaining.

Why?
Because the momentum constantly shift (from one player to another player) when a player who seems to have the other out of position, has to scramble to defent against an equally offencsibe shot she did not expect to come back. In these rallies, the specators are very involved and on the edge of their seats.

Some of the rallies today resemble drills

égalité
Mar 20th, 2010, 07:41 AM
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying all long rallies are boring.
Dementieava-Serena ralies always entertaining.

Why?
Because the momentum constantly shift (from one player to player) when a player who seems to have the other out of position, has to scramble to defent against an equally offencsibe she did not expect to come back. In these rallies, the specator are very involved and on the edge of their seats.

Some of the rallies today resemble drills

So it's a matter of taste and not whether one style of tennis is more valid than the other, yes?

Lord Choc Ice
Mar 20th, 2010, 07:43 AM
So it's a matter of taste and not whether one style of tennis is more valid than the other, yes?
If we take a poll, at least 70% of people would prefer aggressive players to defensive players.

tennisbum79
Mar 20th, 2010, 07:47 AM
So it's a matter of taste and not whether one style of tennis is more valid than the other, yes?
Not really. Pas d'egalite sur cet aspect(nu pun intended)
I would say the vast majority of tennis fans, casual or purist, prefer the Dementieva-Serena style tennis rallies to Aga-Caro style.

Marilyn Monheaux
Mar 20th, 2010, 09:22 AM
Not really. Pas d'egalite sur cet aspect(nu pun intended)
I would say the vast majority of tennis fans, casual or purist, prefer the Dementieva-Serena style tennis rallies to Aga-Caro style.

Probably.
I just randomly decided yesterday to re-watch the Charleston match between Serena and Maria after the IW semi between JJ and Sam.
Now that was some entertaining tennis. Both were hitting so hard, but not just brainlessly into the court. You could see that they were actually thinking about their shots (at least at times:p). The pace, precision and angles were unreal during certain points.
This match really made me miss Serena and pre-injury Maria. The way they were going for their shots, fully committed at all times!:worship::drool:
And all that on clay.:lol:

miffedmax
Mar 20th, 2010, 01:11 PM
Probably.
I just randomly decided yesterday to re-watch the Charleston match between Serena and Maria after the IW semi between JJ and Sam.
Now that was some entertaining tennis. Both were hitting so hard, but not just brainlessly into the court. You could see that they were actually thinking about their shots (at least at times:p). The pace, precision and angles were unreal during certain points.
This match really made me miss Serena and pre-injury Maria. The way they were going for their shots, fully committed at all times!:worship::drool:
And all that on clay.:lol:

Go back even further in history, and watch some of those actual " '80s style" matches between players like Evert and Austin where they're routinely playing 20+ stroke rallies, and every shot has a plan and method behind it--they're actually constructing points over entire 20-stroke rallies. Much as I like some of the modern retrievers, ol' Chrissie would have eaten them alive, one tiny bite at a time. It's something of a lost art, unfortunately, and all too often just being able to keep a ball in play is enough to befuddle modern players who have grown up either playing or opposing the modern power-based game (Lena being a prime, but hardly the only offender).

tennisbum79
Mar 20th, 2010, 03:31 PM
Probably.
I just randomly decided yesterday to re-watch the Charleston match between Serena and Maria after the IW semi between JJ and Sam.
Now that was some entertaining tennis. Both were hitting so hard, but not just brainlessly into the court. You could see that they were actually thinking about their shots (at least at times:p). The pace, precision and angles were unreal during certain points.
Thank God Mary Caillo was not commenting on these matches,
She has no patience for rallies that looks like the players are praticing he precision of their back-hand (or FH). In these of kind of drill rallies, power has no place, only precision is important.
This match really made me miss Serena and pre-injury Maria. The way they were going for their shots, fully committed at all times!:worship::drool:
And all that on clay.:lol:

Venus-Serena had some good hardcourt rallies where each shot drew a hahhh from the stand.
And much earlier, Martina H. vs Venus had their moment of unbelievabe rallies as well.

goldenlox
Mar 20th, 2010, 03:37 PM
This final will have some looong rallies.
But these pushers are consistent players. It takes stamina to do this all week. Caro is very fit

fantic
Mar 20th, 2010, 04:48 PM
And when it become too much to take, they try to break the monotony by going to moon balling.
And we certainly saw a display of that today.
Although Aga, the one allegedly too gifted to indulge in that kind of play, was the one who constantly lifted the ball at volleyball height when it became too tedious to continue the 30-shots monotonous rallies.

Aga moonballed first AND THEN later changed pace and tried to attack.

The problem is that most of them(eh..mostly BH?) sank into the net.

Clearly Wozniacki was the more powerful one..

égalité
Mar 21st, 2010, 06:16 AM
Not really. Pas d'egalite sur cet aspect(nu pun intended)
I would say the vast majority of tennis fans, casual or purist, prefer the Dementieva-Serena style tennis rallies to Aga-Caro style.

OK. That still doesn't mean that the Aga-Caro style players play a lower form of tennis. What people prefer to watch and how much talent the players have are two different things.