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Terpsichore
Feb 2nd, 2010, 07:28 AM
When Justine got her racquet on to a Serena first serve she won the point 60.2% of the time.

Who sez Serena's serve dominated?

Other interesting fact: Justine won a higher percentage of points off BOTH the first and second serves.

Note for those viewing the match statistics: yes, the stats do say that Serena won 47% on the second serve and Justine only 45% but this is misleading because those stats include double-faults. As Justine had three more DF's than Serena the true stat for winning percentage on the second serve (when the ball was in - same as for the first serve) is Serena:51%; Justine: 53%!

BTW whoever did the statistical framework for the ITF stats should be sacked!

MrSerenaWilliams
Feb 2nd, 2010, 07:36 AM
There's no way that Justine should have lost. She was CLEARLY the better player.

Sectumsempra
Feb 2nd, 2010, 07:36 AM
Who cares. The only stat that matters is that Serena won 6-4 3-6 6-2.

duhcity
Feb 2nd, 2010, 07:49 AM
Wickmayer had better stats than Henin.
Thus Henin should have lost to Wickmayer

:rolleyes:

The Witch-king
Feb 2nd, 2010, 08:11 AM
The trouble is the whole "getting her racket onto Serena's first serve" thing :help:
12 aces will do that to ya :p

practiceboy
Feb 2nd, 2010, 08:24 AM
Sooooo basically, if you ignore aces and double faults, which obviously have nothing to do with the quality of one's serve, then Justine was actually the more dominant server.

Riiiiight.......

Avid Merrion
Feb 2nd, 2010, 09:20 AM
Damn, better get Serena to hand the trophy over to Justine seeing she was obviously the real winner....:lol:

skanky~skanketta
Feb 2nd, 2010, 09:35 AM
Well, it doesn't matter what anyone says, at the end of the day, Serena won the match.

That said, one slam is enough! Justine and Venus can do a swap and win Wimby and the FO respectively. Kim can take the USO!

madmax
Feb 2nd, 2010, 09:40 AM
well, it's obvious that without her serve Serena is journeywoman level player...Justine was the real winner, everyone knows it

Lucemferre
Feb 2nd, 2010, 09:42 AM
well, it's obvious that without her serve Serena is journeywoman level player...Justine was the real winner, everyone knows it

:lol:

Olórin
Feb 2nd, 2010, 09:47 AM
It's *says, not sez.

debby
Feb 2nd, 2010, 10:10 AM
Lol @ the "who cares Serena won period" comments.

That stat actually shows Justine read Serena's serve very well but had a poor tactics (on her second serves) despite the fact Serena was serving really well during the Oz Open. It actually shows Justine can challenge Serena everywhere, if she improves her serve, she might become very dangerous for Serena. ;)

LoLex
Feb 2nd, 2010, 10:25 AM
Allez.

Matt01
Feb 2nd, 2010, 10:27 AM
There's no way that Justine should have lost. She was CLEARLY the better player.


Please elaborate.

bandabou
Feb 2nd, 2010, 10:43 AM
:lol: But that was the thing...she WASN'T getting her racket on the ball most of the time. 12 aces, countless service winners. So we're gonna stop counting aces and service winners?

How many majors would Pete Sampras have won, then?!

BlameSerena
Feb 2nd, 2010, 10:56 AM
well, it's obvious that without her serve Serena is journeywoman level player...Justine was the real winner, everyone knows it
Drugs. I guess the serve is not a part of the game of tennis. If you have a great serve then you're not a real tennis player then :rolleyes:. If Serena was all serve all the time then she'd be Sam Stosur. Serena played excellent defense and hit some lovely, clean winners from the baseline.

:lol: But that was the thing...she WASN'T getting her racket on the ball most of the time. 12 aces, countless service winners. So we're gonna stop counting aces and service winners?

How many majors would Pete Sampras have won, then?!

This.

trufanjay
Feb 2nd, 2010, 11:05 AM
:rolleyes:

BuTtErFrEnA
Feb 2nd, 2010, 11:07 AM
Lol @ the "who cares Serena won period" comments.

That stat actually shows Justine read Serena's serve very well but had a poor tactics (on her second serves) despite the fact Serena was serving really well during the Oz Open. It actually shows Justine can challenge Serena everywhere, if she improves her serve, she might become very dangerous for Serena. ;)

serena had a poor serving day by her standards...and yes who cares, serena won...if you lose but have better stats then you still lost the important points...only one loser and one winner

tennisbear7
Feb 2nd, 2010, 11:16 AM
It's not how many points you won or what %, it's WHICH points you won.

bandabou
Feb 2nd, 2010, 11:20 AM
:lol: Exactly...bp for Juju? Ace..deuce. Just like that. It's easy.

BuTtErFrEnA
Feb 2nd, 2010, 11:23 AM
ask roddick who had a better serving day at last year's wimbledon final....then ask him who won

reminder: fed had 50 aces but was broken twice; roddick had less and was broken once....guess when he ONLY got broken

Sectumsempra
Feb 2nd, 2010, 01:47 PM
Another fascinating stat: Serena has 12 Grand Slams, Henin has 7

Sectumsempra
Feb 2nd, 2010, 01:52 PM
Lol @ the "who cares Serena won period" comments.

That stat actually shows Justine read Serena's serve very well but had a poor tactics (on her second serves) despite the fact Serena was serving really well during the Oz Open. It actually shows Justine can challenge Serena everywhere, if she improves her serve, she might become very dangerous for Serena. ;)

If she read it so well then how come Serena served 12 aces. :spit: And when Justine had 1-0* 40-15 she didn't make a return in four points. Oh not to mention Serena serving for the championship Justine failed to return three serves in a row.

Yep she read Serena's serve great. :eek: HAND OVER THE TROPHY NOW SERENA! :rolls:

jefrilibra
Feb 2nd, 2010, 01:53 PM
http://i0.simplest-image-hosting.net/168bf183b2abe8bc9188aacc163dd507/twins-wahwahwah-gif.gifhttp://i0.simplest-image-hosting.net/168bf183b2abe8bc9188aacc163dd507/twins-wahwahwah-gif.gifhttp://i0.simplest-image-hosting.net/168bf183b2abe8bc9188aacc163dd507/twins-wahwahwah-gif.gifhttp://i0.simplest-image-hosting.net/168bf183b2abe8bc9188aacc163dd507/twins-wahwahwah-gif.gif

tennnisfannn
Feb 2nd, 2010, 03:13 PM
I guess serena must have a forehand, backhand, slice, angles and a game plan outside of her serve!

BuTtErFrEnA
Feb 2nd, 2010, 03:36 PM
I guess serena must have a forehand, backhand, slice, angles and a game plan outside of her serve!

obviously not cause that would imply she could play tennis

PatrickRyan
Feb 2nd, 2010, 03:44 PM
Good for her! But that didn't help her to win!

Harju.
Feb 2nd, 2010, 03:47 PM
Justine also had a better return of serve stats when she held her hand up. Oh wait. That was in RG.

Stamp Paid
Feb 2nd, 2010, 06:45 PM
is this what Henin fans are telling themselves now? :lol:
future matches will be well contested on both sides, don't worry. lol

Donny
Feb 2nd, 2010, 07:22 PM
The only stat that truly matters is who held more in each set. Serena happened to hold more in two out of three sets. Hence, she won.

Donny
Feb 2nd, 2010, 07:25 PM
Lol @ the "who cares Serena won period" comments.

That stat actually shows Justine read Serena's serve very well but had a poor tactics (on her second serves) despite the fact Serena was serving really well during the Oz Open. It actually shows Justine can challenge Serena everywhere, if she improves her serve, she might become very dangerous for Serena. ;)

It's ironic that Henin fans, who usually gush over the 'craftiness' and 'court sense' of their fave are now reduced to saying Henin turned into a ballbasher.

Also:

Azarenka broke Serena five times. Does that suddenly mean she's 'reading' Serena's well? Lol.

And if she was reading Serena's serve well, 12 serves wouldn't have flown right by her without her even touching them. That is all.

DOUBLEFIST
Feb 2nd, 2010, 07:27 PM
If she read it so well then how come Serena served 12 aces. :spit: And when Justine had 1-0* 40-15 she didn't make a return in four points. Oh not to mention Serena serving for the championship Justine failed to return three serves in a row.

Yep she read Serena's serve great. :eek: HAND OVER THE TROPHY NOW SERENA! :rolls: :spit:
PWND!

It's ironic that Henin fans, who usually gush over the 'craftiness' and 'court sense' of their fave are now reduced to saying Henin turned into a ballbasher.

Also:

Azarenka broke Serena five times. Does that suddenly mean she's 'reading' Serena's well? Lol.

And if she was reading Serena's serve well, 12 serves wouldn't have flown right by her without her even touching them. That is all.

Agreed. I think there is a a general lack of understanding of the words "READ" v/s the word "GUESSED."

Juju GUESSED well a couple of times. And it was pretty clear that she was guessing, given how many times she got caught leaning.

Donny
Feb 2nd, 2010, 07:40 PM
:spit:
PWND!



Agreed. I think there is a a general lack of understanding of the words "READ" v/s the word "GUESSED."

Juju GUESSED well a couple of times. And it was pretty clear that she was guessing, given how many times she got caught leaning.

Indeed. The game point to go up 4-2 on Serena's serve was telling. She hit down the T with slice to the ad court. It was called an ace, Justine challenged, Serena, on a second serve hit the same exact serve, this time clearly in, for the ace. Justine was fooled twice, on the same exact serve. She had no clue where it was gonna land.

Justine has good racket control, which allows her to get a greater number of serves in play- when she guesses right, like you said. But the idea that she has some uncanny spider sense when it comes to Serena's serve is silly. Petrova and Wickmayer were both giving Justine fits with their first serves.

cehowardrx7
Feb 2nd, 2010, 07:49 PM
When Justine got her racquet on to a Serena first serve she won the point 60.2% of the time.

Who sez Serena's serve dominated?

Other interesting fact: Justine won a higher percentage of points off BOTH the first and second serves.

Note for those viewing the match statistics: yes, the stats do say that Serena won 47% on the second serve and Justine only 45% but this is misleading because those stats include double-faults. As Justine had three more DF's than Serena the true stat for winning percentage on the second serve (when the ball was in - same as for the first serve) is Serena:51%; Justine: 53%!

BTW whoever did the statistical framework for the ITF stats should be sacked!

FYI, WHO WON THE A0 WOMEN'S FINAL??

I don't see how you haters can come with these SOUR GRAPE THREADS, and think people are going to think they are credible.

That are BULLCHIT, and that is being KIND!!!:lol:

Who won the AO Women's Final?? That is the STAT!! And that is a FACT!! :lol:

kiwifan
Feb 2nd, 2010, 07:50 PM
The trouble is the whole "getting her racket onto Serena's first serve" thing :help:
12 aces will do that to ya :p Saved me a post :cool:...but I posted anyway cuz I can't be stopped!!! :armed:

Nicolás89
Feb 2nd, 2010, 08:08 PM
There's no way that Justine should have lost. She was CLEARLY the better player.

Specially because Serena wasn't playing well.

Dodoboy.
Feb 2nd, 2010, 08:18 PM
The most fascinating stat - Serena def Justine 6-4 3-6 6-2

edificio
Feb 2nd, 2010, 08:23 PM
Just watching the match, you could see that Justine was playing Serena's serve relatively well. Obviously, it wasn't enough.

Noctis
Feb 2nd, 2010, 08:30 PM
oh please Henin only plays well if her opponent scream he ass off.
Serena waited to 5-2 an screamed the Allez up her ass and serve the bombs.
Smarter,mentally better,better serve,better player.

BuTtErFrEnA
Feb 2nd, 2010, 08:30 PM
No one said otherwise.

Stop trying to shove Justine down everyone's throats.

thiefer!! you stole my avie :(

Craig.
Feb 2nd, 2010, 08:32 PM
thiefer!! you stole my avie :(

I had it first ;)

And I remember seeing you had it and going "Fail, Kimmy" :p

AcesHigh
Feb 2nd, 2010, 08:32 PM
Disregarding the expected responses, the stat actually is interesting.

I predicted that Serena's strength of serve and Henin's serving issues would result in a straight sets win for Serena(I was off by a set), but I wasnt expecting how well Henin handled her serve.

This bodes well for Justine in future matchups. The biggest advantage Serena has is that serve. To make matters worse(for Henin), the serve is the most important stroke in tennis (IMHO). But if you can neutralize Serena's serve, your chances of winning are dramatically increased.

Henin can outplay (and most of the time WILL outplay) Serena, along with most players, if she can only neutralize the serve and the Serena's penchant for that big first strike off the ground. Once rallies are in play, Serena's movement and footwork become an issue along with the fact that her strokes will most likely be less steady than the Belgian's.

After last Saturday's final, Henin needs to improve her tactics on attacking the serve and Serena... well Serena doesnt need to work on much, but her footwork and conditioning can always be worked on along with some erratic play off the ground she showed in the final.

BuTtErFrEnA
Feb 2nd, 2010, 08:33 PM
:ras: you're fired craig :hysteric:

BuTtErFrEnA
Feb 2nd, 2010, 08:36 PM
Disregarding the expected responses, the stat actually is interesting.

I predicted that Serena's strength of serve and Henin's serving issues would result in a straight sets win for Serena(I was off by a set), but I wasnt expecting how well Henin handled her serve.

This bodes well for Justine in future matchups. The biggest advantage Serena has is that serve. To make matters worse(for Henin), the serve is the most important stroke in tennis (IMHO). But if you can neutralize Serena's serve, your chances of winning are dramatically increased.

Henin can outplay (and most of the time WILL outplay) Serena, along with most players, if she can only neutralize the serve and the Serena's penchant for that big first strike off the ground. Once rallies are in play, Serena's movement and footwork become an issue along with the fact that her strokes will most likely be less steady than the Belgian's.

After last Saturday's final, Henin needs to improve her tactics on attacking the serve and Serena... well Serena doesnt need to work on much, but her footwork and conditioning can always be worked on along with some erratic play off the ground she showed in the final.

serena had an off serving day by her standards even with 12 aces...

and i'm sure one match like this doesn't mean she will ALWAYS have this scary ability to read serena's serve...ask elena the difference in serve in her loss at wimbledon and her loss at the YEC...even in an off serving day she got aces on big points and STILL won...why does that bode well for jh or do you just hope so

Volcana
Feb 2nd, 2010, 08:46 PM
When Justine got her racquet on to a Serena first serve she won the point 60.2% of the time.

Who sez Serena's serve dominated?Perhaps some comments from a totally impartial observer, regarding how Henin handled Serena's serve.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news...-1225825231730 (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news...-1225825231730)

He (Carlos Rodriguez) did want to make one thing very clear in the corridors of Rod Laver Arena, just an hour after the match had finished.

"I think the best player won today. That is the important thing to say," he said. "Justine and I now will work together to find how we're going to do better in the next match, the next moment."

He knows that will entail finding a way to break the Williams serve. The Belgian and the American had not met before in a grand slam final until Melbourne 2010 but it seems they are destined for a few more.

"We need to take some time to manage Justine's serve, manage the emotions and the tactics she has on big points," Rodriguez said. "I cannot say we will make her better but we will make her smarter on the important points."

Rodriguez, who has coached Henin since she was 14, knew exactly when Saturday's final did a 360-degree turn: second game of the third set.

"I started to play much better at the end of the second set, really aggressive. She (Williams) was under pressure," Henin said. "She served unbelievable in that game."

Down two break points on her serve, Williams sent down a 197km/h ace, followed by a 196km/h serve that Henin just got her racquet on but the pop-up return allowed Williams to fire down a forehand winner. Williams held serve with a 194km/h ace.

"She serves superbly (to stop going down 2-0) and mentally and emotionally I could see Justine fall," Rodriguez said.

"She is thinking `I work like a dog to have two break points and then gone'," Rodriguez said. "I think the match turned there. There was only one player on the court then, Serena."

cecilija
Feb 2nd, 2010, 08:52 PM
That's obviously some poppycock from Carlos, because Justine was 2-2 and 30-15 up and then completely collapsed :o

Arnian
Feb 2nd, 2010, 09:09 PM
The stat is interesting and despite what some people want to admit here, Justine did read/guess Serena's serve well and honestly better than some people thought she would on this forum.
Now, Serena still won the match and I acknowledge that, but at the same time this stat bodes well for Henin's match ups against Williams possibly later this year.
Justine is only going to improve and get faster and those BH topspin returns will probably start landing in more often. The overall point is that the stat shows that Justine did really well for having just come back to the tour and she only has room for improvement.

DOUBLEFIST
Feb 2nd, 2010, 09:10 PM
That's obviously some poppycock from Carlos, because Justine was 2-2 and 30-15 up and then completely collapsed :o
:lol: Now the Henin fan tactic is to discredit the Carlos, The Svengali, Rodriguez himself. :eek: That's desperate, indeed.

Could it be that Carlos knows Justine just a shade BETTER than you?

bandabou
Feb 2nd, 2010, 09:12 PM
Disregarding the expected responses, the stat actually is interesting.

I predicted that Serena's strength of serve and Henin's serving issues would result in a straight sets win for Serena(I was off by a set), but I wasnt expecting how well Henin handled her serve.

This bodes well for Justine in future matchups. The biggest advantage Serena has is that serve. To make matters worse(for Henin), the serve is the most important stroke in tennis (IMHO). But if you can neutralize Serena's serve, your chances of winning are dramatically increased.

Henin can outplay (and most of the time WILL outplay) Serena, along with most players, if she can only neutralize the serve and the Serena's penchant for that big first strike off the ground. Once rallies are in play, Serena's movement and footwork become an issue along with the fact that her strokes will most likely be less steady than the Belgian's.

After last Saturday's final, Henin needs to improve her tactics on attacking the serve and Serena... well Serena doesnt need to work on much, but her footwork and conditioning can always be worked on along with some erratic play off the ground she showed in the final.

Keep praying...mzybe someday God will hear your prayers.

So many people hating on Serena's serve like it's some ilegal shot or something.

Donny
Feb 2nd, 2010, 09:12 PM
Disregarding the expected responses, the stat actually is interesting.

I predicted that Serena's strength of serve and Henin's serving issues would result in a straight sets win for Serena(I was off by a set), but I wasnt expecting how well Henin handled her serve.

This bodes well for Justine in future matchups. The biggest advantage Serena has is that serve. To make matters worse(for Henin), the serve is the most important stroke in tennis (IMHO). But if you can neutralize Serena's serve, your chances of winning are dramatically increased.

Henin can outplay (and most of the time WILL outplay) Serena, along with most players, if she can only neutralize the serve and the Serena's penchant for that big first strike off the ground. Once rallies are in play, Serena's movement and footwork become an issue along with the fact that her strokes will most likely be less steady than the Belgian's.

After last Saturday's final, Henin needs to improve her tactics on attacking the serve and Serena... well Serena doesnt need to work on much, but her footwork and conditioning can always be worked on along with some erratic play off the ground she showed in the final.

Justine handled Serena's serve worse- CONSIDERABLY worse- than Azarenka did in the first set and a half of their quarters match.

Most of Serena's serves are put back into play, especially when she has a low first serve percentage. Serena dipped below 50% in the second set, I believe, so Serena was reduced to winning her service points off the ground, when she was clearly struggling for the first two sets. Justine was better than Serena off the ground for most of the match. I'm not seeing how Henin 'read' Serena's serve better than Azarenka or even Na did. She was completely wrongfooted on a sizable portion of Serena's first serves.

cecilija
Feb 2nd, 2010, 09:13 PM
:lol: Now the Henin fan tactic is to discredit the Carlos, The Svengali, Rodriguez himself. :eek: That's desperate, indeed.

Could it be that Carlos knows Justine just a shade BETTER than you?
I am not discrediting Carlos and I am not desperate, thank you very much.
I am just stating the fact. Serena saving those bps might have been the turning point, but Justine was still in it and, like I said, 2-2 30-15 up serving so what he is saying is factually wrong.

youizahoe
Feb 2nd, 2010, 09:18 PM
When Justine got her racquet on to a Serena first serve she won the point 60.2% of the time.

Who sez Serena's serve dominated?

Other interesting fact: Justine won a higher percentage of points off BOTH the first and second serves.

Note for those viewing the match statistics: yes, the stats do say that Serena won 47% on the second serve and Justine only 45% but this is misleading because those stats include double-faults. As Justine had three more DF's than Serena the true stat for winning percentage on the second serve (when the ball was in - same as for the first serve) is Serena:51%; Justine: 53%!

BTW whoever did the statistical framework for the ITF stats should be sacked!

Serena won 54/99 serves (55%) while Justine won 40/76 serves (53%). 55 >>> 53.

Also the stat is correct for counting the double faults. Point lost is point lost, doesn't matter if you hit the second serve in and the player hits a winner of it or you hit the error, it's still a point lost and SHOULD and WILL be counted as a lost 2nd serve.

Volcana
Feb 2nd, 2010, 09:27 PM
I am not discrediting Carlos and I am not desperate, thank you very much.
I am just stating the fact. Serena saving those bps might have been the turning point, but Justine was still in it and, like I said, 2-2 30-15 up serving so what he is saying is factually wrong.I think you're misreading Rodriguez. When he says 'there was only one player on the court' he's obviously not being literal.

The thing is, YOU think she was still in it at 2-2, 30-15. HE didn't.

DOUBLEFIST
Feb 2nd, 2010, 09:34 PM
I am not discrediting Carlos and I am not desperate, thank you very much.
I am just stating the fact. Serena saving those bps might have been the turning point, but Justine was still in it and, like I said, 2-2 30-15 up serving so what he is saying is factually wrong.

Carlos was commenting on what he saw in Justine - the mentality, the "belief" not the scoreline.

cecilija
Feb 2nd, 2010, 09:38 PM
Carlos was commenting on what he saw in Justine - the mentality, the "belief" not the scoreline.

After that lob to go 30-15 up it didn't look to me that she lacked belief. On the contrary, it was Serena who looked a bit rattled. But maybe he thinks she had no gas left in the tank.

Anyhow, she faded away at that point, not after the second game.

DontGetItTwisted
Feb 2nd, 2010, 09:41 PM
All I know is that Reena's ground game, footwork and movement were SHIT ON STICK and yet she still found a way to claim it.
Nay sayers, step back and don't hate, appreciate :wavey:

DOUBLEFIST
Feb 2nd, 2010, 09:44 PM
But maybe he thinks she had no gas left in the tank.


I think he already said what he thinks. :shrug:

mdterp01
Feb 2nd, 2010, 09:46 PM
Stats can be spun in many ways but the end result was still 6-4, 3-6, 6-2 :wavey:

mboyle
Feb 2nd, 2010, 09:59 PM
serena had an off serving day by her standards even with 12 aces...

and i'm sure one match like this doesn't mean she will ALWAYS have this scary ability to read serena's serve...ask elena the difference in serve in her loss at wimbledon and her loss at the YEC...even in an off serving day she got aces on big points and STILL won...why does that bode well for jh or do you just hope so

This is just not true. She had a good not great serving day, but she served well nonetheless.

youizahoe
Feb 2nd, 2010, 10:01 PM
This is just not true. She had a good not great serving day, but she served well nonetheless.

She had I think, 2 games where she couldn't hit a 1st serve in at all. That's mediocre in Serena's terms. If She had served like she served in the earlier rounds, Serena wouldn't have been broken :)

Roookie
Feb 2nd, 2010, 10:41 PM
Impressive stat for Rustine :eek:

mdterp01
Feb 2nd, 2010, 10:45 PM
The stat is interesting and despite what some people want to admit here, Justine did read/guess Serena's serve well and honestly better than some people thought she would on this forum.
Now, Serena still won the match and I acknowledge that, but at the same time this stat bodes well for Henin's match ups against Williams possibly later this year.
Justine is only going to improve and get faster and those BH topspin returns will probably start landing in more often. The overall point is that the stat shows that Justine did really well for having just come back to the tour and she only has room for improvement.

But also, Serena didn't serve nearly how well she often serves for major finals so that also bodes well for Serena in the future. Justine wasn't ready and Serena wasn't even 100% so we can all spin the match each way we want to favor the player we wanted to win. So while Justine may have read Serena's serve well doesn't mean thats the way it will be the next match as Serena's serving stats may be 10 x's better. And whats so "fascinating" about that stat anyway? I mean really....anything for people to make themselves feel better I guess. Glass half full instead of empty is it?

Arnian
Feb 2nd, 2010, 11:20 PM
But also, Serena didn't serve nearly how well she often serves for major finals so that also bodes well for Serena in the future. Justine wasn't ready and Serena wasn't even 100% so we can all spin the match each way we want to favor the player we wanted to win. So while Justine may have read Serena's serve well doesn't mean thats the way it will be the next match as Serena's serving stats may be 10 x's better. And whats so "fascinating" about that stat anyway? I mean really....anything for people to make themselves feel better I guess. Glass half full instead of empty is it?

You would probably find it interesting if you were a Justine fan ;)

DOUBLEFIST
Feb 2nd, 2010, 11:32 PM
I am not discrediting Carlos and I am not desperate, thank you very much.
I am just stating the fact. Serena saving those bps might have been the turning point, but Justine was still in it and, like I said, 2-2 30-15 up serving so what he is saying is factually wrong.
Oh, btw...

Here's what JUSTINE said:

...And then the big opportunity in the beginning of the third set, I started to play much better at the end of the second, really aggressive.

She was under pressure. She served unbelievable in that game. I was up 1‑Love in the third, and what happened if I could break her at that time.

But she's a real champion. She plays the right shot at the right time. She served great at that time. After that, mentally was a little bit harder to stay in the match.

Carlos knows Justine. 'nuff said.

tennisbum79
Feb 3rd, 2010, 12:04 AM
Oh, btw...

Here's what JUSTINE said:
...And then the big opportunity in the beginning of the third set, I started to play much better at the end of the second, really aggressive.

She was under pressure. She served unbelievable in that game. I was up 1‑Love in the third, and what happened if I could break her at that time.

But she's a real champion. She plays the right shot at the right time. She served great at that time. After that, mentally was a little bit harder to stay in the match. Carlos knows Justine. 'nuff said.


Carlos knows Justine. 'nuff said.
Carlos knew no amount emotional support/gesture could help at that time.

It is like a doctor looking at a patient and saying it is time to disconnet all the tubes.
Nothing can be done at this point


But hey, there is no stats for the mental game.

AcesHigh
Feb 3rd, 2010, 12:18 AM
Justine handled Serena's serve worse- CONSIDERABLY worse- than Azarenka did in the first set and a half of their quarters match.

Most of Serena's serves are put back into play, especially when she has a low first serve percentage. Serena dipped below 50% in the second set, I believe, so Serena was reduced to winning her service points off the ground, when she was clearly struggling for the first two sets. Justine was better than Serena off the ground for most of the match. I'm not seeing how Henin 'read' Serena's serve better than Azarenka or even Na did. She was completely wrongfooted on a sizable portion of Serena's first serves.

I didn't see the Azarenka match.. i havent even brought that match up in any of my posts.

I did see the Na match and that's debatable who read the serve better.
Anyway, I just said Henin did a better job than I expected her to. And remember being 5'5" with such a small wingspan gives her a huge disadvantage as a receiver. She has to guess on a lot of serves or read them extremely well b/c of her inability to get to many serves, especially those out wide.

davidmario
Feb 3rd, 2010, 12:42 AM
When Justine got her racquet on to a Serena first serve she won the point 60.2% of the time.

Who sez Serena's serve dominated?

Other interesting fact: Justine won a higher percentage of points off BOTH the first and second serves.

Note for those viewing the match statistics: yes, the stats do say that Serena won 47% on the second serve and Justine only 45% but this is misleading because those stats include double-faults. As Justine had three more DF's than Serena the true stat for winning percentage on the second serve (when the ball was in - same as for the first serve) is Serena:51%; Justine: 53%!

BTW whoever did the statistical framework for the ITF stats should be sacked!

Hm there are just those weird shots called 'aces' which are pretty important in tennis. You can wikipedia that if you don't know what that is.

2. You are a math genius aren't you? Of course all double faults should be cut out the stats. Yay!! bring back the female Karlovic called Anna Kournikova!! She had a damn good second serve in your stats.

trufanjay
Feb 3rd, 2010, 01:04 AM
What a brilliant thread........

OsloErik
Feb 3rd, 2010, 03:46 AM
That's obviously some poppycock from Carlos, because Justine was 2-2 and 30-15 up and then completely collapsed :o

That's the game where she fell apart, but the game prior (the one Carlos referenced) is the game where Serena lifted. It was the last game that Henin made inroads on Serena's serve. And in the 3rd set of a major, you NEED to make inroads on an opponents serve to win. Once Serena showed she was going to serve like Serena from that point on (ace, set-up putaway, service winner, ace was the sequence of the last four points that game, no?), Henin's last chance was gone. And he was right; from that point on, Henin never had a chance to go agead. Being on serve and ahead one game isn't being ahead in the 3rd set; you need a break. Even had Henin won the 2-2 game, she wouldn't have a decisive lead in the match because the 3rd set of non-US slams require a break.

Carlos, for all his faults and his big mouth, knows Henin very, very well. I'm going with him, not just because he knows what he's talking about, but because the actual story of the match bears out his comments.

matty
Feb 3rd, 2010, 04:44 AM
The trouble is the whole "getting her racket onto Serena's first serve" thing :help:
12 aces will do that to ya :p

:lol: :yeah:

matty
Feb 3rd, 2010, 04:46 AM
I didn't see the Azarenka match.. i havent even brought that match up in any of my posts.

I did see the Na match and that's debatable who read the serve better.
Anyway, I just said Henin did a better job than I expected her to. And remember being 5'5" with such a small wingspan gives her a huge disadvantage as a receiver. She has to guess on a lot of serves or read them extremely well b/c of her inability to get to many serves, especially those out wide.

isn't she 5'6"--and she may be a better mover because of that height.

matty
Feb 3rd, 2010, 04:48 AM
besides, all that really will be in the "history books" is the the Slam Win, not so much the stats of the match.

The Witch-king
Feb 3rd, 2010, 06:47 AM
Hm there are just those weird shots called 'aces' which are pretty important in tennis. You can wikipedia that if you don't know what that is.

2. You are a math genius aren't you? Of course all double faults should be cut out the stats. Yay!! bring back the female Karlovic called Anna Kournikova!! She had a damn good second serve in your stats.

:haha: :rolls: so funny

Sectumsempra
Feb 3rd, 2010, 07:18 AM
You would probably find it interesting if you were a Justine fan ;)

Um riiiiight...While Serena fans find it interesting that she won the trophy, Henin fans find it interesting that their champ can apparently read Serena's serve really well. :lol: Good for you :yeah:

bandabou
Feb 3rd, 2010, 07:22 AM
:lol: Hey...Justine HAD to found a way to win points, no? I mean..no way she was gonna win the serving battle. So if she were to lose the ground-battle too, then we wouldn't have a match, no?!

Sectumsempra
Feb 3rd, 2010, 07:23 AM
Now, Serena still won the match and I acknowledge that, but at the same time this stat bodes well for Henin's match ups against Williams possibly later this year.
Justine is only going to improve and get faster and those BH topspin returns will probably start landing in more often. The overall point is that the stat shows that Justine did really well for having just come back to the tour and she only has room for improvement.

That doesn't even make sense :confused: If stats foreshadow the outcome of future matches, I expect you were quite shocked Justine managed to win a few games, let alone a set after this.......

B4czzU-JUcw

:shrug:

DOUBLEFIST
Feb 3rd, 2010, 07:50 AM
The stat is interesting and despite what some people want to admit here, Justine did read/guess Serena's serve well and honestly better than some people thought she would on this forum.
Now, Serena still won the match and I acknowledge that, but at the same time this stat bodes well for Henin's match ups against Williams possibly later this year.
Justine is only going to improve and get faster and those BH topspin returns will probably start landing in more often. The overall point is that the stat shows that Justine did really well for having just come back to the tour and she only has room for improvement.
Don't conflate "read" and "guess." They are two different things. She "guessed" well on some points, but the odds caught up with her at crucial times, and she guessed wrong - particularly the barrage at the end of the 2nd game in the third and the final game.

Na READ her serve. She was on it, as was Vika. Juju was just "okay."

Slutiana
Feb 3rd, 2010, 08:02 AM
Another fascinating stat: Serena has 12 Grand Slams, Henin has 7
AJDE!


Henin fans make me laugh too much. :spit: Just sit down and get over the fact that she lost rather than finding a million ways to disprove it EVEN THOUGH SERENA WON THE SLAM. :help:

Slutiana
Feb 3rd, 2010, 08:02 AM
That doesn't even make sense :confused: If stats foreshadow the outcome of future matches, I expect you were quite shocked Justine managed to win a few games, let alone a set after this.......

B4czzU-JUcw

:shrug:
Step to this.

cehowardrx7
Feb 3rd, 2010, 08:18 AM
Maybe if we had the LINE JUDGE who called the INFAMOUS FOOT FAULT in the US OPEN working in this match. the OUTCOME MIGHT HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT!!http://www.cehoward.net/badteeth%5b1%5d.gif

Does the OP have any FASCINATING STATS on FOOT FAULTS BEING CALLED AT CRUCIAL PARTS OF A MATCH??

I wanna know!!http://www.cehoward.net/badteeth%5b1%5d.gif

debby
Feb 3rd, 2010, 08:21 AM
Almost all these Serena fans (on this thread) are laughable.

I don't even find an excuse, I am just saying Serena served very well (buterrfrena makes me laugh also, despite 12 aces, she didn't serve well? :spit: What do you expect her ? To be Karlovic ? Thank god, she would be unbearable -- I can't stand Karlovic) and Henin read her serve very well but got unlucky and had a poor tactic, so next time, both of them will have a hard time.

And I am getting loads of badreps "Justine isn't gonna win Wimbledon HAHAHA BITCH " "BITCH SERENA WON HAHAHAHA" and negatives posts (see Craig's) .. Wow, how mature you are :weirdo:

bandabou
Feb 3rd, 2010, 08:45 AM
:lol: Don't take it personal, debby. I mean if Bartoli can reach the finals at Wimbledon, certainly Juju has a shot to win it someday. But...who's gonna take out BOTH sister out for her?

Matt01
Feb 3rd, 2010, 08:52 AM
serena had an off serving day by her standards even with 12 aces...


Yeah, Serena had on "off-day" regarding her serve. I've also been told by another WS-fan that Justine's serve had on "on-day", meaning that's usually much worse.

It's all :bs:

Matt01
Feb 3rd, 2010, 09:02 AM
:lol: Don't take it personal, debby. I mean if Bartoli can reach the finals at Wimbledon, certainly Juju has a shot to win it someday. But...who's gonna take out BOTH sister out for her?


Serena always beats herself anyway.

And Venus? She's very inconsistant, even at her best Slam :lol:

mashafann
Feb 3rd, 2010, 09:20 AM
:lol: Don't take it personal, debby. I mean if Bartoli can reach the finals at Wimbledon, certainly Juju has a shot to win it someday. But...who's gonna take out BOTH sister out for her?

Anything is possible, even at Wimbledon. You shouldn't be so confident, Serena already lost against Sharapova, against Henin too. Venus on the other hand, it's more complicated but who knows? I never thought Mauresmo could win Wimbledon, and Im sure you didn't expect to see Sharapova beating Serena in the final, anything can happen in tennis, especially with ladies:lol:

cehowardrx7
Feb 3rd, 2010, 09:28 AM
Another "FASCINATING STAT FROM A0 FINAL"

Justine Henin LOST, Serena Williams WON!!]!!http://www.cehoward.net/badteeth%5b1%5d.gif

Why can't the HATERS understand that stat/fact/reality??!!http://www.cehoward.net/badteeth%5b1%5d.gif

Renalicious
Feb 3rd, 2010, 09:37 AM
OMG!! Give the trophy to Justine NOW!!!!.

cecilija
Feb 3rd, 2010, 09:40 AM
Overdefensive much? I don't think the OP's intention was to discredit Serena's win, but just to point out an interesting stat :tape:

bandabou
Feb 3rd, 2010, 09:40 AM
Anything is possible, even at Wimbledon. You shouldn't be so confident, Serena already lost against Sharapova, against Henin too. Venus on the other hand, it's more complicated but who knows? I never thought Mauresmo could win Wimbledon, and Im sure you didn't expect to see Sharapova beating Serena in the final, anything can happen in tennis, especially with ladies:lol:

THAT was Juju's best chance, against Momo..alas.

I already said, anything's possible..what with Bartoli reaching the finals?!

Maria, who? ;)

bandabou
Feb 3rd, 2010, 09:42 AM
Serena always beats herself anyway.

And Venus? She's very inconsistant, even at her best Slam :lol:

:lol: Since then she has 1 title and 1 final, so it's good.

And Vee, is on a 3 final.including 2 titles streak.

bandabou
Feb 3rd, 2010, 09:48 AM
Overdefensive much? I don't think the OP's intention was to discredit Serena's win, but just to point out an interesting stat :tape:

Interesting to whom?

mashafann
Feb 3rd, 2010, 09:51 AM
THAT was Juju's best chance, against Momo..alas.

I already said, anything's possible..what with Bartoli reaching the finals?!

Maria, who? ;)

:lol: better forget that I know.:lol:
Anyway it's true it was her chance in 06 but if she came back it's because she thinks she can have another one, and why are you guys so defensive, if Henin coudnt win Wimbledon, we wouldn't be here arguing about that.

cecilija
Feb 3rd, 2010, 09:54 AM
Interesting to whom?

I guess to everyone who likes to discuss and analyse tennis matches?

The Witch-king
Feb 3rd, 2010, 10:03 AM
:lol: Since then she has 1 title and 1 final, so it's good.

And Vee, is on a 3 final.including 2 titles streak.

she is 29-2 since 2005 :worship: but apparently that means nothing as it's *just* wimbledon

BlameSerena
Feb 3rd, 2010, 10:04 AM
Another "FASCINATING STAT FROM A0 FINAL"

Justine Henin LOST, Serena Williams WON!!]!!http://www.cehoward.net/badteeth%5b1%5d.gif

Why can't the HATERS understand that stat/fact/reality??!!http://www.cehoward.net/badteeth%5b1%5d.gif

Thee most important stat :rocker2: :lol:

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j319/Elisser/flaminghotred2004_7-1.gif

Sectumsempra
Feb 3rd, 2010, 10:12 AM
Overdefensive much? I don't think the OP's intention was to discredit Serena's win, but just to point out an interesting stat :tape:

How is it interesting? :confused: It didn't help her win, did it :spit: If her reading/return of serve is so GOAT then how come Serena managed to break Henin's serve not once, but twice more? I don't see you raving about how great Serena's return is. :wavey:

cehowardrx7
Feb 3rd, 2010, 10:21 AM
Overdefensive much? I don't think the OP's intention was to discredit Serena's win, but just to point out an interesting stat :tape:

It is very obvious that Ya can't think!http://www.cehoward.net/badteeth%5b1%5d.gif

It is very plain that these SOUR GRAPES THREADS are to discredit Serena..


However,we have more fair people on this board, then nutcases...http://www.cehoward.net/badteeth%5b1%5d.gif

cecilija
Feb 3rd, 2010, 10:23 AM
How is it interesting? :confused: It didn't help her win, did it :spit: If her reading/return of serve is so GOAT then how come Serena managed to break Henin's serve not once, but twice more? I don't see you raving about how great Serena's return is. :wavey:

I am not raving about anything, certainly not Justine's return. Those errors cost her the match IMO. And I doubt the OP was raving about Justine's return either.

It is interesting precisely because she didn't win you know.
She had more break points than Serena despite having a weaker delivery. It just goes to show that she failed on the key points.

bandabou
Feb 3rd, 2010, 10:27 AM
:lol: better forget that I know.:lol:
Anyway it's true it was her chance in 06 but if she came back it's because she thinks she can have another one, and why are you guys so defensive, if Henin coudnt win Wimbledon, we wouldn't be here arguing about that.

The match that never took place. :lol:

Of course she can..when did I say anything different? I only say it's gonna be VERY difficult, considering the strangehold that the sisters have at Wimbledon. 8 of the last 10 titles there, 5 all-Williams finals, etc..

BlameSerena
Feb 3rd, 2010, 10:30 AM
I am not raving about anything, certainly not Justine's return. Those errors cost her the match IMO. And I doubt the OP was raving about Justine's return either.

It is interesting precisely because she didn't win you know.
She had more break points than Serena despite having a weaker delivery. It just goes to show that she failed on the key points.

Serena had more break points than Venus in the Wimby 08 final. I don't remember any threads about that.

bandabou
Feb 3rd, 2010, 10:35 AM
I am not raving about anything, certainly not Justine's return. Those errors cost her the match IMO. And I doubt the OP was raving about Justine's return either.

It is interesting precisely because she didn't win you know.
She had more break points than Serena despite having a weaker delivery. It just goes to show that she failed on the key points.

:lol: But that's the thing...Serena won the key points on serve and the key points on return.

Why's nobody talking about that?

Sectumsempra
Feb 3rd, 2010, 10:37 AM
I am not raving about anything, certainly not Justine's return. Those errors cost her the match IMO. And I doubt the OP was raving about Justine's return either.

It is interesting precisely because she didn't win you know.
She had more break points than Serena despite having a weaker delivery. It just goes to show that she failed on the key points.

What do you mean "it's interesting because she didn't win"? Of course if a match goes to three sets the stats aren't always going to favour the victor. How is it so interesting that one stat favours Justine when so many others favour Serena?

She had more break points because Serena capitalised on her opportunities usually on the first or second chance, whereas Justine often missed several chances before breaking. Yet you're impling that because she needed opportunities to break each game, it means she returned better? So you're saying that if Justine took five break point opportunities before breaking, that is a more convincing return game than a Serena game where she broke to love on her first opportunity? Doesn't make sense at all. It's not rocket science. :shrug:

cecilija
Feb 3rd, 2010, 11:08 AM
What do you mean "it's interesting because she didn't win"? Of course if a match goes to three sets the stats aren't always going to favour the victor. How is it so interesting that one stat favours Justine when so many others favour Serena?

She had more break points because Serena capitalised on her opportunities usually on the first or second chance, whereas Justine often missed several chances before breaking. Yet you're impling that because she needed opportunities to break each game, it means she returned better? So you're saying that if Justine took five break point opportunities before breaking, that is a more convincing return game than a Serena game where she broke to love on her first opportunity? Doesn't make sense at all. It's not rocket science. :shrug:

You are misreading me or just inventing things? That's exactly what I am saying, Justine's return errors did her in but don't you think that Serena's serve is much more difficult to return? The opponent is constantly under great pressure and that's why it is impossible to compare their returning since they don't return the same delivery.

Sectumsempra
Feb 3rd, 2010, 11:16 AM
You are misreading me or just inventing things? That's exactly what I am saying, Justine's return errors did her in but don't you think that Serena's serve is much more difficult to return? The opponent is constantly under great pressure and that's why it is impossible to compare their returning since they don't return the same delivery.

She goes from being a GOAT returner and now you're saying her return of serve lost her the match? :confused: You do realise this "Fascinating Stat" is about how good Justine returns...and now you're saying this fabulous return is the reason she lost. I don't understand what you're saying :shrug:

bandabou
Feb 3rd, 2010, 11:18 AM
:lol: It's just crazy...where do these guys come from!? :rolls:

cecilija
Feb 3rd, 2010, 11:21 AM
She goes from being a GOAT returner and now you're saying her return of serve lost her the match? :confused: You do realise this "Fascinating Stat" is about how good Justine returns...and now you're saying this fabulous return is the reason she lost. I don't understand what you're saying :shrug:

I never said it was fabulous, if it had been fabulous as in 2007, she would have stood a great chance of winning.

As it is, it was promising and definitely not hopeless as many here would make us think. As long as she manages to eradicate the wild errors and shanks, it will be fine.

Sectumsempra
Feb 3rd, 2010, 11:57 AM
I never said it was fabulous, if it had been fabulous as in 2007, she would have stood a great chance of winning.

As it is, it was promising and definitely not hopeless as many here would make us think. As long as she manages to eradicate the wild errors and shanks, it will be fine.

The OP said her return stats were fascinating :shrug: Just look at the title. In other words she returned really well to get those stats.

It's funny how you're now calling her ROS simply "promising" and "not hopeless". Those are strange words to use for a player who apparently has a great read on the greatest player of this generation's serve.

cecilija
Feb 3rd, 2010, 12:09 PM
The OP said her return stats were fascinating :shrug: Just look at the title. In other words she returned really well to get those stats.

It's funny how you're now calling her ROS simply "promising" and "not hopeless". Those are strange words to use for a player who apparently has a great read on the greatest player of this generation's serve.

You obviously haven't even read the post (there is more to it than the title) so there is no point in discussing it with you.

You are just a certified hater, so I won't bother from now on.

As for your bad rep, you need help :help:

Sectumsempra
Feb 3rd, 2010, 12:31 PM
You obviously haven't even read the post (there is more to it than the title) so there is no point in discussing it with you.

You are just a certified hater, so I won't bother from now on.

As for your bad rep, you need help :help:

What on earth are you talking about? :confused: The OP described the stat as "fascinating". What was in the post isn't exactly relevant...he still described them as "fascinating" in the title. And if we are to look at the post we'd see that all he talks about is how well Justine returns, and saying Serena's serve isn't so dominating after all, and that the ITF statisticians should be sacked.

Bai bai :bigwave: :bigwave: :bigwave:

HippityHop
Feb 3rd, 2010, 12:42 PM
Indeed. The game point to go up 4-2 on Serena's serve was telling. She hit down the T with slice to the ad court. It was called an ace, Justine challenged, Serena, on a second serve hit the same exact serve, this time clearly in, for the ace. Justine was fooled twice, on the same exact serve. She had no clue where it was gonna land.

Justine has good racket control, which allows her to get a greater number of serves in play- when she guesses right, like you said. But the idea that she has some uncanny spider sense when it comes to Serena's serve is silly. Petrova and Wickmayer were both giving Justine fits with their first serves.

This!

HippityHop
Feb 3rd, 2010, 12:55 PM
Disregarding the expected responses, the stat actually is interesting.

I predicted that Serena's strength of serve and Henin's serving issues would result in a straight sets win for Serena(I was off by a set), but I wasnt expecting how well Henin handled her serve.

This bodes well for Justine in future matchups. The biggest advantage Serena has is that serve. To make matters worse(for Henin), the serve is the most important stroke in tennis (IMHO). But if you can neutralize Serena's serve, your chances of winning are dramatically increased.

Henin can outplay (and most of the time WILL outplay) Serena, along with most players, if she can only neutralize the serve and the Serena's penchant for that big first strike off the ground. Once rallies are in play, Serena's movement and footwork become an issue along with the fact that her strokes will most likely be less steady than the Belgian's.

After last Saturday's final, Henin needs to improve her tactics on attacking the serve and Serena... well Serena doesnt need to work on much, but her footwork and conditioning can always be worked on along with some erratic play off the ground she showed in the final.

There's an old saying: "If a frog had a glass ass it would hop only once."

These esoteric arguments are fine. However they are trying to mask the fact that in tennis it's not how many points you win but which points you win. If you hold your serve everytime in each set, you only need to break once. Then guess what, that's all she wrote.

And we all know that in a major, when Serena has a chance for a crucial break, she is going to turn the pressure up so high that everybody in the stadium is going to feel it.

HippityHop
Feb 3rd, 2010, 01:06 PM
she is 29-2 since 2005 :worship: but apparently that means nothing as it's *just* wimbledon

:lol:

brickhousesupporter
Feb 3rd, 2010, 01:15 PM
KDm0PqjAF78

bandabou
Feb 3rd, 2010, 01:26 PM
There's an old saying: "If a frog had a glass ass it would hop only once."

These esoteric arguments are fine. However they are trying to mask the fact that in tennis it's not how many points you win but which points you win. If you hold your serve everytime in each set, you only need to break once. Then guess what, that's all she wrote.

And we all know that in a major, when Serena has a chance for a crucial break, she is going to turn the pressure up so high that everybody in the stadium is going to feel it.

:lol: Exactly...take away Serena's serve..why not take away Juju's forehand too? Then what?

cehowardrx7
Feb 3rd, 2010, 01:55 PM
You obviously haven't even read the post (there is more to it than the title)

Anybody with 2nd grade reading skills can tell you that the post is a SOURGRAPES POST, contains BULLCHIT in the title, and as you have so kindly pointed out, contains even more BULLCHIT inside the post.http://www.cehoward.net/badteeth%5b1%5d.gif
so there is no point in discussing it with you.

You are just a certified hater, so I won't bother from now on.

As for your bad rep, you need help :help:

Ha, you callin somebody a Certified Hater??http://www.cehoward.net/badteeth%5b1%5d.gif

Excuse me while I choke!!http://www.cehoward.net/badteeth%5b1%5d.gif
This post was started by a HATER, the OP is a HATER!! These same HATERS would be basting in Joy if Serena had lost, ..However, Justine lost, and now all you hear is SOUR GRAPES..

Dam, at least you HATERS should MAN UP!!http://www.cehoward.net/badteeth%5b1%5d.gif

The Witch-king
Feb 3rd, 2010, 02:03 PM
Anybody with 2nd grade reading skills can tell you that the post is a SOURGRAPES POST, contains BULLCHIT in the title, and as you have so kindly pointed out, contains even more BULLCHIT inside the post.http://www.cehoward.net/badteeth%5b1%5d.gif


Ha, you callin somebody a Certified Hater??http://www.cehoward.net/badteeth%5b1%5d.gif

Excuse me while I choke!!http://www.cehoward.net/badteeth%5b1%5d.gif
This post was started by a HATER, the OP is a HATER!! These same HATERS would be basting in Joy if Serena had lost, ..However, Justine lost, and now all you hear is SOUR GRAPES..

Dam, at least you HATERS should MAN UP!!http://www.cehoward.net/badteeth%5b1%5d.gif

:spit: LAWD have mercy, hallelujah!! :haha: :sobbing:

Sectumsempra
Feb 3rd, 2010, 02:20 PM
http://www.cehoward.net/badteeth%5b1%5d.gif

Hi Justine :bigwave:

Serena y Monica
Feb 3rd, 2010, 05:34 PM
Lol @ the "who cares Serena won period" comments.

That stat actually shows Justine read Serena's serve very well but had a poor tactics (on her second serves) despite the fact Serena was serving really well during the Oz Open. It actually shows Justine can challenge Serena everywhere, if she improves her serve, she might become very dangerous for Serena. ;)
Serena had quite a few UE's. So how many contributed to that 60%...lol. Actually what that stat shows is that Serena played scared...missed a lot of shots and still beat Justine. Next time they meet up the dynamics won't be the same...Serena won't have the same redicules burden (wta legitamacy) on her shoulders...Justine will have more expectations on her shoulders and we will see how it turns out.

Arnian
Feb 3rd, 2010, 06:00 PM
That doesn't even make sense :confused: If stats foreshadow the outcome of future matches, I expect you were quite shocked Justine managed to win a few games, let alone a set after this.......

B4czzU-JUcw

:shrug:

Actually, I don't even care about the Miami 08 match. It's such an outlier of a match that I wasn't even worried about something like that happening in the final. Justine played terribly in Miami and Serena played amazingly, thus the outcome. That match doesn't phase me.

There's nothing wrong with being pleased with stats in certain areas of how your favorite played a match. It's a positive note from a loss, and there's nothing wrong with finding positive aspects of any loss.

BuTtErFrEnA
Feb 3rd, 2010, 06:29 PM
that's an outlier but 07 wasn't?? strange argument

Arnian
Feb 3rd, 2010, 06:32 PM
that's an outlier but 07 wasn't?? strange argument

It's an outlier from how their matches typically go, and 4 matches from a single year can not equal an outlier.

cehowardrx7
Feb 3rd, 2010, 06:57 PM
I am not raving about anything, certainly not Justine's return. Those errors cost her the match IMO. And I doubt the OP was raving about Justine's return either.

It is interesting precisely because she didn't win you know.
She had more break points than Serena despite having a weaker delivery. It just goes to show that she failed on the key points.

But, everybody already knows that, that is one of the reason Justine lost!! I mean come on now, in every tennis match, there has got to be a WINNER and a LOSER. It just so happens that Serena wasn't the loser.

Those other stats don't mean a hill of beans..

Now Let It Go....:lol::lol:

VeeReeDavJCap81
Feb 3rd, 2010, 07:03 PM
Gotta love these discrediting threads :lol:

Matt01
Feb 3rd, 2010, 07:19 PM
But, everybody already knows that, that is one of the reason Justine lost!! I mean come on now, in every tennis match, there has got to be a WINNER and a LOSER. It just so happens that Serena wasn't the loser.

Those other stats don't mean a hill of beans..



When other people are interested in those "other stats", why don't you let them discuss them? In this case, I don't really see the relevance of those stats, either, but as long the comments are not disrespectful to the players, I have no problem with that.

cehowardrx7
Feb 3rd, 2010, 07:35 PM
When other people are interested in those "other stats", why don't you let them discuss them? In this case, I don't really see the relevance of those stats, either, but as long the comments are not disrespectful to the players, I have no problem with that.

Matt01, I have NO PROBLEM either, however, I WILL call a spade a spade. It is pure de SOUR GRAPES. Their favorite lost, and here comes a bunch of EXCUSES. Lose, and lose with some pride. Justine got beat. Next match, instead of WHINING, WHINING, AND WHINING.

One very real interesting stat is there are a bunch of SORE LOSERS/HATERS on this board, I tell you that!!! :cool:

AcesHigh
Feb 3rd, 2010, 07:40 PM
RenA dA BeSttt EvaAAaAA!!!!!>!!

That seems to be the only appropriate response to this thread for some people.

Stamp Paid
Feb 3rd, 2010, 07:41 PM
RenA dA BeSttt EvaAAaAA!!!!!>!!

That seems to be the only appropriate response to this thread for some people.Look at you, starting your shit again.

AcesHigh
Feb 3rd, 2010, 07:46 PM
Look at you, starting your shit again.

Not my fault a completely legitimate thread was derailed by uber-defensive posters.

Olórin
Feb 3rd, 2010, 07:47 PM
Look at you, starting your shit again.

True story.

Donny
Feb 3rd, 2010, 07:48 PM
Not my fault a completely legitimate thread was derailed by uber-defensive posters.

Derailed how? I don't see people breaking any forum rules in here.

AcesHigh
Feb 3rd, 2010, 07:48 PM
Derailed how? I don't see people breaking any forum rules in here.

So you have to break forum rules to derail a thread? :rolleyes:
You know what I'm talking about.

Stamp Paid
Feb 3rd, 2010, 07:49 PM
Not my fault a completely legitimate thread was derailed by uber-defensive posters.
And the contribution of that post will only lead to further derailment and antagonism. Good work Aces :)

VishaalMaria
Feb 3rd, 2010, 07:51 PM
Serena's the best EVAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA A!

AcesHigh
Feb 3rd, 2010, 07:52 PM
And the contribution of that post will only lead to further derailment and antagonism. Good work Aces :)

I and a few other posters tried to take the thread seriously but we were swamped with 12>>7 or SHE LOST, GET OVER IT

So aparently analysis of a tennis match isn't allowed unless you're praising Serena.

Donny
Feb 3rd, 2010, 07:56 PM
So you have to break forum rules to derail a thread? :rolleyes:
You know what I'm talking about.

Afraid not. What counts as 'derailment' is subjective. That's why I never engage in those kind of arguments.

Le Bon Vivant just accused you of trying to derail a thread. So who's right; them, or you?

DOUBLEFIST
Feb 3rd, 2010, 07:58 PM
I and a few other posters tried to take the thread seriously...
No, you and a few other posters offered up your thoughts and they were roundly BLASTED by others and now you're whining about it and making inflammatory remarks because your arguments are falling on deaf ears, except for maybe that garish forum clown we all know and love.

BuTtErFrEnA
Feb 3rd, 2010, 08:02 PM
:rolls: gotta love aces

in every serena bashing thread there's always some technicality that must be discussed!!!

and @ arnian...it's amazing you don't see those matches as outliers since they fell within a time period where serena was now getting back into tennis after virtually all of 06 and 05 off :lol: but as usual...there's always some thread like this to take away credit from serena and send praise her opponents' way...

AcesHigh
Feb 3rd, 2010, 08:09 PM
No, you and a few other posters offered up your thoughts and they were roundly BLASTED by others and now you're whining about it and making inflammatory remarks because your arguments are falling on deaf ears, except for maybe that garish forum clown we all know and love.

I could care less if anyone paid attention to me or not. However I am disappointed by the inability of some people to take a nonantagonistic thread seriously and take part in simple analysis.

AcesHigh
Feb 3rd, 2010, 08:12 PM
Afraid not. What counts as 'derailment' is subjective. That's why I never engage in those kind of arguments.

Le Bon Vivant just accused you of trying to derail a thread. So who's right; them, or you?

:lol: can't believe you're asking that.

Donny
Feb 3rd, 2010, 08:14 PM
I could care less if anyone paid attention to me or not. However I am disappointed by the inability of some people to take a nonantagonistic thread seriously and take part in simple analysis.

The 'analysis' is frivolous and superficial. Any evaluation of serve performance that does not take into account aces and double faults is idiotic and decietful. There's no other way to describe it.

It'd be akin to evaluating baseline rallies and discarding unforced errors or winners. 'Well if you only count the shots that went IN the court...'

How's THIS for analysis: Of the serves Justine did not get her racket on, Serena won 100% of them! Of the serves Justine did not manage to land in the service box, Serena also won 100% of them! AMAZE! Do you see how ridiculous that sounds?

2Black
Feb 3rd, 2010, 08:26 PM
So we're gonna stop counting aces and service winners?

How many majors would Pete Sampras have won, then?!

THIS!!!

cecilija
Feb 3rd, 2010, 08:35 PM
:rolls: gotta love aces

in every serena bashing thread there's always some technicality that must be discussed!!!

and @ arnian...it's amazing you don't see those matches as outliers since they fell within a time period where serena was now getting back into tennis after virtually all of 06 and 05 off :lol: but as usual...there's always some thread like this to take away credit from serena and send praise her opponents' way...

It seems like you forgot that Justine didn't play for nearly two years. So I guess we should declare every Justine's loss this year null and void according to your logic. :tape:

DOUBLEFIST
Feb 3rd, 2010, 08:41 PM
I could care less if anyone paid attention to me or not...
:rolleyes: Oh, so that's why you posted thiss...


RenA dA BeSttt EvaAAaAA!!!!!>!!

That seems to be the only appropriate response to this thread for some people.

That, around here, is the ultimate CRY for ATTENTION.

Diesel
Feb 3rd, 2010, 09:15 PM
I could care less if anyone paid attention to me or not.

Proper usage of the term = I couldn't care less.

You do care, at least a little bit, as you're attention grabbing posts highlight :wavey:

Stamp Paid
Feb 3rd, 2010, 09:36 PM
Get her!! :lol:

bandabou
Feb 4th, 2010, 07:17 AM
Aces, now playing the innocent? :lol: The whole premise of the thread is silly.

To prove what? That Justine was hanging in there in the rallies, that she won the ground battle. Ok, good. Fine.
But since when is hitting aces and service winners illegal? Making it sound like Serena had an unfair advantage or something.

Arnian
Feb 5th, 2010, 01:46 AM
:rolls: gotta love aces

in every serena bashing thread there's always some technicality that must be discussed!!!

and @ arnian...it's amazing you don't see those matches as outliers since they fell within a time period where serena was now getting back into tennis after virtually all of 06 and 05 off :lol: but as usual...there's always some thread like this to take away credit from serena and send praise her opponents' way...

No you're missing the overall point which is, their matches rarely are so drastic of a score as 2 & 0, this is what I was referencing. This is why I wasn't worried about it happening again, because it's not a common scoreline. I think it's a total joke that you come up with all these excuses for why she lost. Just accept it, she lost and got beat, get over it.
She was good enough to play the best tennis of her life and win a major in 07, she sure as hell was good enough to win those matches :rolleyes:

I don't think anyone is trying to take anything away from Serena, we are simply analyzing a positive stat for Justine.

BuTtErFrEnA
Feb 5th, 2010, 11:37 AM
rigggghhht lol...it's not a common scoreline but you think serena gets beaten 3 times in a row in slams because of what...

and i can claim that AO 07 was an outlier simply because serena was dedicating that to the memory of yetunde...or do you not remember that almost no one thought she would win that...she won AO 07 on pure mentality alone...

why must there be stats to analyse for you but no one can analyse a serena loss positively without it being an excuse??? :lol: we have to accept a loss but everyone wants to degrade a serena win....just accept the fact that in 2007 serena wasn't in good shape and those losses are an outlier the same way you want to make 08 an outlier...and just so you know, serena beat jh at wimbledon after your famous hand incident losing 5 games...so the score isn't an outlier...when serena comes to play with revenge on her mind she'll thrash jh

here's my interesting stat...it took 3 sets for jh to beat serena with one hand and one leg on grass...

if you want to analyse jh's game and her "positive" stats then you have a forum for that

serenafan08
Feb 5th, 2010, 12:44 PM
The desperate attempts to blunt Serena's victory never cease to amaze me. Justine fans can't accept the fact that she lost, hence all these backhanded compliments. The point is tennis is all about four points in a game, six games in a set, two sets in a match. Serena won the points she needed to and won the title. Period.

VishaalMaria
Feb 5th, 2010, 01:27 PM
WOW! It seems like the Serena fan forum.

Arnian
Feb 5th, 2010, 03:56 PM
rigggghhht lol...it's not a common scoreline but you think serena gets beaten 3 times in a row in slams because of what...

and i can claim that AO 07 was an outlier simply because serena was dedicating that to the memory of yetunde...or do you not remember that almost no one thought she would win that...she won AO 07 on pure mentality alone...

why must there be stats to analyse for you but no one can analyse a serena loss positively without it being an excuse??? :lol: we have to accept a loss but everyone wants to degrade a serena win....just accept the fact that in 2007 serena wasn't in good shape and those losses are an outlier the same way you want to make 08 an outlier...and just so you know, serena beat jh at wimbledon after your famous hand incident losing 5 games...so the score isn't an outlier...when serena comes to play with revenge on her mind she'll thrash jh

here's my interesting stat...it took 3 sets for jh to beat serena with one hand and one leg on grass...

if you want to analyse jh's game and her "positive" stats then you have a forum for that

Delusional as always Butterena and a failed attempt to retort what I said.

My point being is that I view it as an outlier, however I give Serena do credit for playing better that day and winning the match. You on the other hand, can't do the same thing, you have to pull out your large bag of excuses for whenever Justine beats Serena.
Getting beat 3 times in a row, during a year where she won a major is not an outlier, they are just losses :rolleyes: Justine played better and won, just like Serena played better in 08 and won, get over yourself.

Also, provided Serena won quite convincingly at Wimbledon in 03, the scoreline still wasn't as drastic.
If you wanna spread false :bs: about why Serena lost a match and never give any player credit for their wins, you also have a forum for that.

Olórin
Feb 5th, 2010, 04:00 PM
If one loss can be called an outlier then any loss can. You can contextualise any loss to whatever degree suits you - at the end of the day it's reducing yourself to making excuses.

Now, if someone is clearly badly injured to the point where it is inhibiting their gamestyle - then we can put legitimate stars by those losses.

BuTtErFrEnA
Feb 5th, 2010, 04:56 PM
:lol: arnian is so transparent it's not funny...

so one match is an outlier because jh "lost her motivation"...but other matches aren't outliers because jh is better and won :rolls: why did you even pose as a serena fan to begin with??? and as i said...here's a stat for you that you can't refute...

one leg one hand serena took 3 sets to go down....took all of summer off and loss again...isn't that the same :bs: you're trying to pull with the "08 is an outlier"??? plz arnian come off it

AcesHigh
Feb 5th, 2010, 05:05 PM
When Justine got her racquet on to a Serena first serve she won the point 60.2% of the time.

Who sez Serena's serve dominated?

Other interesting fact: Justine won a higher percentage of points off BOTH the first and second serves.

Note for those viewing the match statistics: yes, the stats do say that Serena won 47% on the second serve and Justine only 45% but this is misleading because those stats include double-faults. As Justine had three more DF's than Serena the true stat for winning percentage on the second serve (when the ball was in - same as for the first serve) is Serena:51%; Justine: 53%!

BTW whoever did the statistical framework for the ITF stats should be sacked!

The 'analysis' is frivolous and superficial. Any evaluation of serve performance that does not take into account aces and double faults is idiotic and decietful. There's no other way to describe it.

It'd be akin to evaluating baseline rallies and discarding unforced errors or winners. 'Well if you only count the shots that went IN the court...'

How's THIS for analysis: Of the serves Justine did not get her racket on, Serena won 100% of them! Of the serves Justine did not manage to land in the service box, Serena also won 100% of them! AMAZE! Do you see how ridiculous that sounds?

:lol: idiotic and deceitful??? It's a VERY important statistic as it judges who gets the upper hand when the ball is in play. You know... actual rallies?

And you're comparison is ridiculous and illogical.

Aces, now playing the innocent? :lol: The whole premise of the thread is silly.

To prove what? That Justine was hanging in there in the rallies, that she won the ground battle. Ok, good. Fine.
But since when is hitting aces and service winners illegal? Making it sound like Serena had an unfair advantage or something.

The premise is silly? Why?
It doesnt attempt to prove anything. It's just a fucking statistic but some people here are so defensive, anything not praising Serena is bad.

I've quoted the original post to just show everyone how harmless it was.

trufanjay
Feb 5th, 2010, 05:12 PM
When Justine got her racquet on to a Serena first serve she won the point 60.2% of the time.

Who sez Serena's serve dominated?

Other interesting fact: Justine won a higher percentage of points off BOTH the first and second serves.

Note for those viewing the match statistics: yes, the stats do say that Serena won 47% on the second serve and Justine only 45% but this is misleading because those stats include double-faults. As Justine had three more DF's than Serena the true stat for winning percentage on the second serve (when the ball was in - same as for the first serve) is Serena:51%; Justine: 53%!

BTW whoever did the statistical framework for the ITF stats should be sacked!
This is just brilliant. You are very smart :worship:

They should hire you to keep up with the statistics, seriously. You are amazing. Very intelligent. :-)

Arnian
Feb 5th, 2010, 08:38 PM
:lol: arnian is so transparent it's not funny...

so one match is an outlier because jh "lost her motivation"...but other matches aren't outliers because jh is better and won :rolls: why did you even pose as a serena fan to begin with??? and as i said...here's a stat for you that you can't refute...

one leg one hand serena took 3 sets to go down....took all of summer off and loss again...isn't that the same :bs: you're trying to pull with the "08 is an outlier"??? plz arnian come off it

You're missing my whole point as usual :rolleyes:

I'm not discrediting Serena's win like you are Justine's and that's the HUGE difference between what I'm saying and what you are saying. For me personally (my opinion) I wasn't concerned with the same scoreline happening, because to me it was a fluke of a scoreline. That's not saying I didn't think Serena would win, I just knew it would be close. I am in no way making excuses or trying to take away or completely diminishing a win of Serena's. On the other hand, that's all you have when it comes to Justine, you can't as so much imagine in your head that Justine is more than capable of beating Serena, without there needing to be some lame excuse. That is the major difference between you and I.

As for the Wimbledon match you oh so love to allude to, grass is Serena's best surface, her serve was just as potent as usual, and her movement really wasn't hindered in that match. You make it sound as if she rolled out in a wheel chair and gave Justine a battle, you're a joke :lol:

DOUBLEFIST
Feb 5th, 2010, 09:03 PM
When Justine got her racquet on to a Serena first serve she won the point 60.2% of the time.

Who sez Serena's serve dominated?
Quick question...,

exactly HOW MANY TIMES did Justine "get her racket on" Serena's serve? THAT is likely, a more telling stat as far as her service dominance, and please DEFINE "get her racket on?" Does that include or exclude service winners? There is a surprising and, dare I say, "convenient" amount of gray in this for someone who seems to fancy himself a tennis "theorist," of sorts.

AcesHigh
Feb 5th, 2010, 09:08 PM
Quick question...,

exactly HOW MANY TIMES did Justine "get her racket on" Serena's serve? THAT is likely, a more telling stat as far as her service dominance, and please DEFINE get her racket on? Does that include or exclude service winners? There is a surprising amount of gray in this for someone who seems to fancy himself a tennis "theorist," of sorts.

Good question.. I'd like to see that answered as well.

hablo
Feb 9th, 2010, 03:16 AM
Well, this was an entertaining thread. :spit:

bandabou
Feb 9th, 2010, 04:24 AM
:lol: idiotic and deceitful??? It's a VERY important statistic as it judges who gets the upper hand when the ball is in play. You know... actual rallies?

And you're comparison is ridiculous and illogical.



The premise is silly? Why?
It doesnt attempt to prove anything. It's just a fucking statistic but some people here are so defensive, anything not praising Serena is bad.

I've quoted the original post to just show everyone how harmless it was.

If it's just a damned statistic then why are you twisting yourself around defending Juju's record in non-clay finals, then? Desperately wanting to prove that Juju is actually an all-surface player, while her record indicates otherwise?

Just a stat too, no? Juju doesn't do as well in non-clay finals as she does in clay finals. Just like people wanna imply that Serena won mostly because of her serve and couldn't hang with Juju off the ground..

Arnian
Feb 9th, 2010, 04:26 AM
If it's just a damned statistic then why are you twisting yourself around defending Juju's record in non-clay finals, then? Desperately wanting to prove that Juju is actually an all-surface player, while her record indicates otherwise?

Just a stat too, no? Juju doesn't do as well in non-clay finals as she does in clay finals. Just like people wanna imply that Serena won mostly because of her serve and couldn't hang with Juju off the ground..

I think its comical how you think this thread and the other thread have anything in common :haha: They really don't, but you just can't see it sadly

cecilija
Feb 9th, 2010, 05:53 AM
I think its comical how you think this thread and the other thread have anything in common :haha: They really don't, but you just can't see it sadly

Paranoia does that to you.

And Justine's record does indicate that she is an all-surface player :o

I never knew that reaching 8 non-clay grand slam finals (twice as many as on clay) and winning 3 of those indicates she is a mug on non-clay surfaces.

bandabou
Feb 9th, 2010, 06:11 AM
Now it's paranoia, huh? I still fail to see what people want to prove with this thread, but ok. Doesn't change the result, so it's good.

bandabou
Feb 9th, 2010, 06:12 AM
And Serena who HAS won all four isn't a all-surface player?

Cookie Power
Feb 9th, 2010, 09:02 AM
http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/29/interesting-thread.gif