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DOUBLEFIST
Feb 1st, 2010, 08:33 PM
If you could only have one and why?

I think it's an interesting choice. While not the only GOAT weapons, these were the ones that came to my mind quickest. Feel free to suggest others. In fact, maybe I'll edit the poll to include an "other" choice. (if that's possible)

Noctis
Feb 1st, 2010, 08:38 PM
choose what :scratch:

LudwigDvorak
Feb 1st, 2010, 08:43 PM
Serena's five Melbourne titles or Venus' five Wimbledon titles...after Paris we can include Justine's five Parisian titles. :bigclap:

DOUBLEFIST
Feb 1st, 2010, 08:44 PM
choose what :scratch:
:lol: Sorry, didn't get the poll up in time. :o

DOUBLEFIST
Feb 1st, 2010, 08:45 PM
Serena's five Melbourne titles or Venus' five Wimbledon titles...after Paris we can include Justine's five Parisian titles. :bigclap:
Ludwig!!!! Where have you been?

kiwifan
Feb 1st, 2010, 08:48 PM
Cheapest points in the game...Serena's Serve...

...I can beat most people on one leg with that serve.

All those other talents would also require me to move and I'm getting older. :hehehe:

-jenks-
Feb 1st, 2010, 08:49 PM
Hingis' court sense hands down.

^bibi^
Feb 1st, 2010, 08:51 PM
Anything that belongs to Martina, really :haha:

But Imagine someone with all those five :hearts:

Noctis
Feb 1st, 2010, 08:52 PM
The Dreaded Serena Serve.
cheap points,mentally break down your opponent easier like to mentally weak opponents henin.

DOUBLEFIST
Feb 1st, 2010, 08:54 PM
Anything that belongs to Martina, really :haha:

But Imagine someone with all those five :hearts:
Roger Federer. :shrug:

Dave.
Feb 1st, 2010, 08:55 PM
Lindsay's ball striking abilities. Hearing that sound every time. :drool:

From the poll, Serena's serve. Definitely for me because my serve is without question my worst shot. :sobbing:

Olórin
Feb 1st, 2010, 08:55 PM
Serena's serve, Graf's forehand are the superweapons of women's tennis - they have won both won not only matches but slam titles when the rest of their game was patchy.

The same can be said of Nav's volleys, but of course for her volleys to be working she had to be serving well...and she is a really a rival for Serena in terms of the greatest server of all time. So between those three things I would say, because I'm a biased and obssessive fan...Serena's serve.

^bibi^
Feb 1st, 2010, 08:56 PM
Roger Federer. :shrug:

I meant in women tennis :p :sad:

MrSerenaWilliams
Feb 1st, 2010, 09:02 PM
Serena's serve. A serve like that IMMEDIATELY puts fear into your opponent that they're going to be under pressure on their service games because they're (more than likely) not going to get into your service games, and they'd feel like they're playing from behind at the start.

If I ranked them:
1. Serena
2. Hingis
3. Navratilova
4. Henin
5. Graf

DOUBLEFIST
Feb 1st, 2010, 09:03 PM
Serena's serve, Graf's forehand are the superweapons of women's tennis - they have won both won not only matches but slam titles when the rest of their game was patchy.

The same can be said of Nav's volleys, but of course for her volleys to be working she had to be serving well...and she is a really a rival for Serena in terms of the greatest server of all time. So between those three things I would say, because I'm a biased and obssessive fan...Serena's serve.
Yeah, with Nav' it was a hard choice because she did a FEW things really well. I was considering putting her slice instead of volleys, but then I could have made an argument for Steffi's slice as well. Nav', of course had a great serve, but it wasn't as devastating and demoralizing as Serena's so I went with something else of hers. I didn't want to have two of anything in the poll. Also, I don't think you should minimize Hingis' court sense. It was, aside from perhaps her bh down the line, her greatest "weapon" and more dependable then her strokes. The stretch, for me, was Henin's backhand. It's not exactly a "weapon" so much as a "tool" of the highest order. It allows her to do a great many other things, but as far as being a match winning weapon, :shrug: , it's a stretch.

DOUBLEFIST
Feb 1st, 2010, 09:03 PM
I meant in women tennis :p :sad:
I know. ;) :p

ptitnavet
Feb 1st, 2010, 09:06 PM
The Cunning Hingis Court Sense
It must be awesome to see your opponent getting crazy because you play so clever with angles and you anticipate all his shots :devil:

Olórin
Feb 1st, 2010, 09:11 PM
Yeah, with Nav' it was a hard choice because she did a FEW things really well. I was considering putting her slice instead of volleys, but then I could have made an argument for Steffi's slice as well. Nav', of course had a great serve, but it wasn't as devastating and demoralizing as Serena's so I went with something else of hers. I didn't want to have two of anything in the poll. Also, I don't think you should minimize Hingis' court sense. It was, aside from perhaps her bh down the line, her greatest "weapon" and more dependable then her strokes. The stretch, for me, was Henin's backhand. It's not exactly a "weapon" so much as a "tool" of the highest order. It allows her to do a great many other things, but as far as being a match winning weapon, :shrug: , it's a stretch.

It's definitely not desireable to underestimate Martina H's tactical genius, but for all its brilliance her court sense often had to bow down to the superiority of the Serena (or more often Davenport) serve and Graf's forehand - so it's pretty clear to me that these two at least are superior assets.

2Black
Feb 1st, 2010, 09:13 PM
Well, since I play tennis in real life & my serve is the worst part of my game... (no brainer)

My forehand is already my best shot :cool:
I could care less about going to the net :lol:
My backhand is decent enough
And I don't want anything Hingis has!!!

BuTtErFrEnA
Feb 1st, 2010, 09:26 PM
serve....when you hold serve easily:

it allows you to go for more on return...you don't have to be an excellent returner, but good enough that you can pressure your opponent's serve

stemming from that is the pressure it puts on your opponent mentally...she's thinking "dam i can't even get a sniff on her serve while she seems to be in all of mine"...even the physically fit can't withstand that type of pressure since usually the mental effects then start to manifest themselves physically

as the server your ground game tends to pick up with your serve...if you can't serve you feel more pressure to have a great ground game...elena d has developed a great ground game and probably even better reflexes at handling the return of her serve but she seems more the exception than the rule...plus in big situations the inability to win cheap points and hold easily is still seen to be her downfall and probably still weighs on her mind....

BuTtErFrEnA
Feb 1st, 2010, 09:32 PM
It's definitely not desireable to underestimate Martina H's tactical genius, but for all its brilliance her court sense often had to bow down to the superiority of the Serena (or more often Davenport) serve and Graf's forehand - so it's pretty clear to me that these two at least are superior assets.

indeed....tactical genius required the point starting on even terms...as serena's serve developed she left hingis in the dust since she points hardly ever started on even terms with serena's games, and serena's power, speed and agility and dare i say anticipation put hingis in a bind...the turn around in their h-2-h didn't surprise me...

i know some may read that and say well venus has the same thing, but her serve, for all its power, was never as accurately placed as serena's and therefore hingis with her reflexes just had to read the ball toss, set up as best she could and bunt it back...

bandabou
Feb 1st, 2010, 09:42 PM
wow..tough one. When you watch some of Serena's matches and how her service games go like ace,ace, service winner, unreturned.. in like 1minute. It's cool!

Steff_forever
Feb 1st, 2010, 09:49 PM
Martina's court sense

DOUBLEFIST
Feb 1st, 2010, 09:58 PM
It's definitely not desireable to underestimate Martina H's tactical genius, but for all its brilliance her court sense often had to bow down to the superiority of the Serena (or more often Davenport) serve and Graf's forehand - so it's pretty clear to me that these two at least are superior assets.
I agree, but for the sake of argument, having no other superior weapons, Hingis managed to win 5 slams with that court sense. So I think it does rank as a "superior weapon." Of course, it all gets down to the matter of the DEGREE to which that weapon can dominate - especially in today's game. This is where Hingis falls short.

Lulu.
Feb 1st, 2010, 10:04 PM
1. Serve
2. Court Sense
3. Forehand
4. Backhand
5. Volleys

LightWarrior
Feb 1st, 2010, 10:09 PM
Evert and Seles gor nothing here ? :confused:

ptitnavet
Feb 1st, 2010, 10:13 PM
Evert and Seles gor nothing here ? :confused:

Evert's passing shot :hearts:

sweetpeas
Feb 1st, 2010, 10:20 PM
Serena serve,no doubt.

Chrissie-fan
Feb 1st, 2010, 10:31 PM
Evert's passing shot :hearts:
I would choose that, but the problem is that there are no serve and volleyers anymore to pass.

DOUBLEFIST
Feb 1st, 2010, 10:35 PM
Evert and Seles gor nothing here ? :confused:
Name their "weapon?"

I thought about Evert's down the line bh, as I did Hingis', but it wasn't really a weapon, per say. I guess it could be argue, but I just didn't think so.

When I think of Monica, no single weapon comes to mind. Just consistency, fight and relentless groundies.

Which just goes to show you that not every alltime great had a single defining weapon. But the poll was about just that - single defining weapons.

Olórin
Feb 1st, 2010, 10:37 PM
Evert and Seles gor nothing here ? :confused:

Evert does most things brilliantly, which is why it's harder to just pick one shot and say that it won for her when the rest of her game was not working (which it never was really).

I personally would have put Seles' mental tenacity up there instead of Hingis' all-court game (it won more slams imo).

I would choose that, but the problem is that there are no serve and volleyers anymore to pass.

:lol:

mdterp01
Feb 1st, 2010, 10:38 PM
Serena's serve HANDS DOWN!! Easy points after long rallies....you can count on it break points down or down in your own serve...and it sets up the rest of the game. Serena's serve sets up the rest of the point for her, particularly when she gets the first serve in. Even her second serve is AMAZE!!!

DOUBLEFIST
Feb 2nd, 2010, 10:35 AM
So based on everything people are saying, is it safe to say Serena's serve is the most dominant and devastating shot in the history of the Women's game?

dsanders06
Feb 2nd, 2010, 10:50 AM
Graf's forehand, without question. With that shot, she could win cheap points at will in EVERY game, unlike just half the games like Serena's serve can.

LoLex
Feb 2nd, 2010, 10:59 AM
Hingis all-court game. :o

Miranda
Feb 2nd, 2010, 11:04 AM
The Dreaded Serena Serve.
cheap points,mentally break down your opponent easier like to mentally weak opponents henin.

one cannot win 7 slams with a mentally weak mind:lol:

Golovinjured.
Feb 2nd, 2010, 11:13 AM
Hingis. Everytime I play I try and play like her, and I love seeing my opponents face after I completely puzzle them.

Hingis + Serena's serve would have been :drool: THAT would have been GOAT.

Raiden
Feb 2nd, 2010, 11:40 AM
I go for Henin's (or for that matter Federer's) backhand, despite the fact that a backhand may not win me as many easy points as a good serve, there is something spectacular about almost any (one handed) backhand that is well executed. It's an art form.

Lord Choc Ice
Feb 2nd, 2010, 12:00 PM
I voted for Hingis' court sense. But I'd also use a bit more power in it than Hingis did. So I'd put Graf forehand second.

I'd put Serena serve third. It would be a great weapon for sure, but no-one wants to watch matches where a player wins only with her serve. Thankfully this isn't a problem (usually) for Serena.

BuTtErFrEnA
Feb 2nd, 2010, 12:12 PM
would you be bothered about what people want to watch if you were winning slams with your serve only game? :confused:

Lord Choc Ice
Feb 2nd, 2010, 12:15 PM
would you be bothered about what people want to watch if you were winning slams with your serve only game? :confused:
Obviously not but I'm speaking from the POV of a spectator.

But it's not really a problem anyway. The only player in either ATP or WTA that truly has a serve-only game is Ivo Karlovic, and look at his results - not that great.

bandabou
Feb 2nd, 2010, 12:25 PM
Graf's forehand, without question. With that shot, she could win cheap points at will in EVERY game, unlike just half the games like Serena's serve can.

Surprising..NOT. Miracle you didn't pick Juju's backhand. :lol:

The Witch-king
Feb 2nd, 2010, 12:29 PM
Graf's forehand, without question. With that shot, she could win cheap points at will in EVERY game, unlike just half the games like Serena's serve can.

not if the ball is whizzing past her outstretched racket on serena's service games :tape:

BuTtErFrEnA
Feb 2nd, 2010, 12:51 PM
Obviously not but I'm speaking from the POV of a spectator.

But it's not really a problem anyway. The only player in either ATP or WTA that truly has a serve-only game is Ivo Karlovic, and look at his results - not that great.

but the pov of the spectator doesn't matter in what i want to develop as a player :lol: karlovic's problem, much like what roddick had at one point, is that there was no semblance of even a solid ground game...all an opponent does is get the serve back and once you're better of the ground you'll more likely than not win...karlovic served 78 aces in one match, i heard, and still lost...

78 aces = 19.5 games he could win which = 3 sets and a bit

no way someone should lose with all those free points...but if my serve was my only weapon, and i had a decent return, decent ground game that i could back it up and win, then surely i wouldn't care if people got bored of me serving all the time if i was winning

BuTtErFrEnA
Feb 2nd, 2010, 12:51 PM
not if the ball is whizzing past her outstretched racket on serena's service games :tape:

why don't you just ignore the troll...stop quoting it cause i have it on ignore :lol: although your comment is :spit:

Sexysova
Feb 2nd, 2010, 12:54 PM
Serena's serve

DOUBLEFIST
Feb 2nd, 2010, 01:20 PM
Graf's forehand, without question. With that shot, she could win cheap points at will in EVERY game, unlike just half the games like Serena's serve can.
Not "at will" which is the problem of that notion.

Even Steffi, The Great, needed a ball she could attack. That's why her slice was so necessary. That's why she'd run around her back hand. She'd have to try to put herself in a position to use that big forehand. Some times that was easier than others. The point is, her opponents ALWAYS had a say in the matter.

The serve, on the other hand, is the only shot you hit where you get to dictate the terms ENTIRELY. That's why the serve is, singularly speaking, the most important shot in the game, and in that arena, Serena's serve reigns supreme.

BuTtErFrEnA
Feb 2nd, 2010, 01:33 PM
indeed...graf's fh shot still had the element of dependency on her opponent...if her opponent could handle her slice bh (which was no easy feat mind you) then she lost some of her ability to set up her devastating fh...if graf is down bp, she has to depend on her opponent in a rally...

if i step up to the line on bp, serve an ace or get a service winner, or at least a short ball for an easy put away 1-2 punch, no rally needed, bp gone easily...:shrug: not dependent on my opponent, it's dependent on me solely

The Witch-king
Feb 2nd, 2010, 01:45 PM
why don't you just ignore the troll...stop quoting it cause i have it on ignore :lol: although your comment is :spit:
good idea. His posts are almost as predictable as matt01's :tape:
but the pov of the spectator doesn't matter in what i want to develop as a player :lol: karlovic's problem, much like what roddick had at one point, is that there was no semblance of even a solid ground game...all an opponent does is get the serve back and once you're better of the ground you'll more likely than not win...karlovic served 78 aces in one match, i heard, and still lost...

78 aces = 19.5 games he could win which = 3 sets and a bit

no way someone should lose with all those free points...but if my serve was my only weapon, and i had a decent return, decent ground game that i could back it up and win, then surely i wouldn't care if people got bored of me serving all the time if i was winning
so true. Great post. I mean, this whole poll rests on the assumption that aside from the main weapon you have a decent if good rest of your game. Cuz frankly who wants a Stephanie Graf forehand if you literally can't do anything with your backhand? Or you have a crap serve? Backhand errors and doublefaults galore aren't entertaining to spectators either.
Not "at will" which is the problem of that notion.

Even Steffi, The Great, needed a ball she could attack. That's why her slice was so necessary. That's why she'd run around her back hand. She'd have to try to put herself in a position to use that big forehand. Some times that was easier than others. The point is, her opponents ALWAYS had a say in the matter.

The serve, on the other hand, is the only shot you hit where you get to dictate the terms ENTIRELY. That's why the serve is, singularly speaking, the most important shot in the game, and in that arena, Serena's serve reigns supreme.

:worship:

Dave.
Feb 2nd, 2010, 01:51 PM
So based on everything people are saying, is it safe to say Serena's serve is the most dominant and devastating shot in the history of the Women's game?

So that is the purpose of this thread then?

hmm, I'm not sure we could say that seeing as Serena with her serve hasn't accomplished half of what Graf did with that forehand.


Not "at will" which is the problem of that notion.

Even Steffi, The Great, needed a ball she could attack. That's why her slice was so necessary. That's why she'd run around her back hand. She'd have to try to put herself in a position to use that big forehand. Some times that was easier than others. The point is, her opponents ALWAYS had a say in the matter.

The serve, on the other hand, is the only shot you hit where you get to dictate the terms ENTIRELY. That's why the serve is, singularly speaking, the most important shot in the game, and in that arena, Serena's serve reigns supreme.


I agree with the serve being the single most important shot. But more than any other rally shot (2nd shot onwards) the Graf forehand was probably the most dictating shot ever, almost the way a serve is. At times she did hit winners at will, regardless of what the opponent did. She actually preferred a deep ball, or one with something on it, over a short putaway on the FH side. And it is arguable the quality of return coming at you and where the returner positions themselves can have at least some effect on the server.

BuTtErFrEnA
Feb 2nd, 2010, 02:03 PM
i could argue that serena was looking on track until her injury which has never fully allowed her to get back to the level she was at...if she had continued on that trail she may have well been in graf territory :shrug:

if it were true, your argument about returners, then someone like hingis, lindsay etc should have better records against serena, but as it stands, they don't...they both dominated her before her serve fully developed, but once it did she turned the tables around drastically...serena even had a 100% record on serves in that us open 01 sf against a great returner like hingis....servers like serena and sampras weren't thrown off by where opponents stood since they knew that even if you guess where i'm going, it's coming hard and placed well enough that you probably can't do anything spectacular off it anyways so they will still be in control of any sort of rally...

might i add: graf was dependent on the rally and opponent playing her way...seles changed that to show how to break down that shot with a different game style :shrug: there's hardly anything an opponent can do to break down an excellent server's mentality, as serena, even on poor serving days and getting her serves returned with ease, still steps up and erases bps, mps etc with one good serve

bandabou
Feb 2nd, 2010, 02:07 PM
Not going there with Serena's serve over Graf's forehand.. but that people are even discussing it, is already amazing.

I mean, who would've thought that the next greatest shot in women's tennis would be a serve?!

Dave.
Feb 2nd, 2010, 02:16 PM
i could argue that serena was looking on track until her injury which has never fully allowed her to get back to the level she was at...if she had continued on that trail she may have well been in graf territory :shrug:

if it were true, your argument about returners, then someone like hingis, lindsay etc should have better records against serena, but as it stands, they don't...they both dominated her before her serve fully developed, but once it did she turned the tables around drastically...serena even had a 100% record on serves in that us open 01 sf against a great returner like hingis....servers like serena and sampras weren't thrown off by where opponents stood since they knew that even if you guess where i'm going, it's coming hard and placed well enough that you probably can't do anything spectacular off it anyways so they will still be in control of any sort of rally...

might i add: graf was dependent on the rally and opponent playing her way...seles changed that to show how to break down that shot with a different game style :shrug: there's hardly anything an opponent can do to break down an excellent server's mentality, as serena, even on poor serving days and getting her serves returned with ease, still steps up and erases bps, mps etc with one good serve

Ok but that doesn't change anything. Graf herself had plenty of injuries and setbacks. But that's a different topic.

Oh no, I agree the serve is the most dictating shot but I disagreed that it is ENTIRELY about the server which is what Doublefist said. I still think the returner can well be responsible for the odd double fault or taking some speed of the first serve. The greatest men's server Pete Sampras, while still coming out on top against the greatest men's returner (Agassi), still lost (and lost serve) plenty of times.

Lindsay never dominated Serena. When 16 y/o Serena beat no.3 ranked Lindsay from something like 1-6 2-5 MP down she was in her head forever. :sobbing:

Sombrerero loco
Feb 2nd, 2010, 02:24 PM
the intelligence from hingis!

dsanders06
Feb 2nd, 2010, 02:44 PM
Not "at will" which is the problem of that notion.

Even Steffi, The Great, needed a ball she could attack. That's why her slice was so necessary. That's why she'd run around her back hand. She'd have to try to put herself in a position to use that big forehand. Some times that was easier than others. The point is, her opponents ALWAYS had a say in the matter.

The serve, on the other hand, is the only shot you hit where you get to dictate the terms ENTIRELY. That's why the serve is, singularly speaking, the most important shot in the game, and in that arena, Serena's serve reigns supreme.


When Graf was at her best, she really could dictate with her forehand pretty much whenever she wanted. At her peak, she could reach anything her opponent threw at her and smack it back with her fh. I'll concede that perhaps we need to factor in her magnificent movement (the best movement ever for a female tennis player, by any measure, by a long distance). so perhaps Serena's serve is *technically* more dominant than Graf's fh, because Graf needed her great movement to unlock the potential of her fh. Still, in pratice, Graf's forehand was more devastating than Serena's serve.

belzebub
Feb 2nd, 2010, 02:45 PM
Serena's pummeling serve of course.

Serrayo
Feb 2nd, 2010, 03:07 PM
Serve. By far.

So many times she was beaten off the ground (Zheng in Wimby 07, Henin this year), but her serve bails her out over and over. I wish there wasn't a negative connotation attached to the term "bails out", because to get to her level requires a ridiculous level of skill.

I think a ridiculous serve is much harder to build than a strong forehand or backhand, which is why for the last couple years, we've seen nothing but puff serves (Jankovic, Safina, Ivanovic, Sharapova, and it goes on) but extremely strong groundstrokes. Yet, in the end, we find that serve really is much more important than all that.

The Dawntreader
Feb 2nd, 2010, 03:09 PM
Graf's athleticsm. It was the source of that stupendously good forehand.

The best athlete i've ever seen in tennis, WTA or ATP.

LudwigDvorak
Feb 2nd, 2010, 05:16 PM
Ludwig!!!! Where have you been?

My interest in the WTA has been dwindled to nothing. The mindless idiot in my avatar is the only thing that keeps me around. I'm still around though. :wavey:

Uranium
Feb 2nd, 2010, 05:19 PM
Hingis' court sense.

Bijoux0021
Feb 2nd, 2010, 06:21 PM
Serena's serve.

Mistress of Evil
Feb 2nd, 2010, 06:29 PM
Hingis's talent all the way.

Mary Cherry.
Feb 2nd, 2010, 06:33 PM
If you could only have one and why?

I think it's an interesting choice. While not the only GOAT weapons, these were the ones that came to my mind quickest. Feel free to suggest others. In fact, maybe I'll edit the poll to include an "other" choice. (if that's possible)

Forgive me for being n00b-ish, but I've seen it a few times on here and still don't understand. What does everyone mean by GOAT? :help:

DOUBLEFIST
Feb 2nd, 2010, 06:37 PM
Greatest Of All Time.

Mary Cherry.
Feb 2nd, 2010, 06:38 PM
...should've really worked that out by myself. heh.

BuTtErFrEnA
Feb 2nd, 2010, 06:47 PM
lol no worries...some here probably didn't know and just went with the flow :lol:

DOUBLEFIST
Feb 2nd, 2010, 06:50 PM
So that is the purpose of this thread then?

hmm, I'm not sure we could say that seeing as Serena with her serve hasn't accomplished half of what Graf did with that forehand.
That's simple, Dave. Serena has underachieved. Everybody knows this. Also, one great weapon does NOT win 22 majors - or 12 for that matter. You know that. The purpose of the thread is as stated. I said what I said about Serena serve because, of all the GOAT weapons, that seems to be the one people would want the most. Don't be resentful. :angel:

I agree with the serve being the single most important shot. But more than any other rally shot (2nd shot onwards) the Graf forehand was probably the most dictating shot ever, almost the way a serve is. At times she did hit winners at will, regardless of what the opponent did. She actually preferred a deep ball, or one with something on it, over a short putaway on the FH side. And it is arguable the quality of return coming at you and where the returner positions themselves can have at least some effect on the server.
I'd agree except about the return of serve.

The returner can position themselves where ever they want and can hit blind screaming winner after winner of it, but it is STILL up to the SERVER where and how they choose to serve the ball. That first strike can't be taken away. It can be MENTALLY assaulted, but it can't be directly, PHYSICALLY effected.

MaBaker
Feb 2nd, 2010, 06:52 PM
Elena's persistence.

DOUBLEFIST
Feb 2nd, 2010, 06:54 PM
My interest in the WTA has been dwindled to nothing. The mindless idiot in my avatar is the only thing that keeps me around. I'm still around though. :wavey:
:lol: :hug: Keep the faith, man! She's still playing well!

DontGetItTwisted
Feb 2nd, 2010, 07:00 PM
Henin's BH isn't all that.

I'd say Reena's serve cause you can play like shit, if your serve is official you still have some serious chances of winning the match.

hingis-seles
Feb 2nd, 2010, 07:15 PM
I'd go with either Martina's cunning court sense or Monica's mental toughness. They're both innate - you either have it or you don't. It's not a tennis stroke that can be learnt and mastered with insane amounts of practice and coaching.

Serenita
Feb 2nd, 2010, 07:18 PM
Forgive me for being n00b-ish, but I've seen it a few times on here and still don't understand. What does everyone mean by GOAT? :help:


http://www.ca.uky.edu/agcollege/4H/projects_events/core/animalscience/goat/images/goat.jpg

Dunlop1
Feb 2nd, 2010, 07:24 PM
What makes Serena's serve great isn't the sheer pace of it.
It is the pace and variety of the stroke.

A server who can flatten it up the T at 120mph or can hit a short angled slice serve out wide at 90mph with almost the same toss, makes life tremendously difficult for the returner.
She not only has the power on the serve, but can vary the spins and has pinpoint placement.
Truly the women's GSOAT (Greatest Serve Of All Time)

As a student of the game and a fan of the technical aspects of the game, I have a lot of respect for the Serena serve.
I love the simplicity of her technique on the shot.

Now there are other players with really good technique on the 1st and 2nd serve e.g Dani Hantuchova, but Serena is genetically blessed with really strong/big shoulders so that when she rotates them during the serve, she generates massive racquet head speed resulting in a powerful serve.

IMO, Stosur has a slightly better serve than Serena, but she has a C- ground game. Her lack of game off the ground and the fact that she doesn't S&V means that she has to go for more on her serve, thus making more mistakes.

Serena has the combo of being great off the ground and having a good serve.

(PS.
I still think Serena is a very obnoxious person and is full of herself.
That is all)

Nicolás89
Feb 2nd, 2010, 07:31 PM
I wish I could have Serena's serve and Martina's court sense, I would be unstoppable. :hearts:

DOUBLEFIST
Feb 2nd, 2010, 07:38 PM
What makes Serena's serve great isn't the sheer pace of it.
It is the pace and variety of the stroke.

A server who can flatten it up the T at 120mph or can hit a short angled slice serve out wide at 90mph with almost the same toss, makes life tremendously difficult for the returner.
She not only has the power on the serve, but can vary the spins and has pinpoint placement.
Truly the women's GSOAT (Greatest Serve Of All Time)

As a student of the game and a fan of the technical aspects of the game, I have a lot of respect for the Serena serve.
I love the simplicity of her technique on the shot.

Now there are other players with really good technique on the 1st and 2nd serve e.g Dani Hantuchova, but Serena is genetically blessed with really strong/big shoulders so that when she rotates them during the serve, she generates massive racquet head speed resulting in a powerful serve.

IMO, Stosur has a slightly better serve than Serena, but she has a C- ground game. Her lack of game off the ground and the fact that she doesn't S&V means that she has to go for more on her serve, thus making more mistakes.

Serena has the combo of being great off the ground and having a good serve.

(PS.
I still think Serena is a very obnoxious person and is full of herself.
That is all)
:lol: Don't worry, your Serena... "hating" (and I use that term in the nicest of ways) cred' is still intact. ;)

Are you saying that Stosur's serve is "technically" better or more effective?

BuTtErFrEnA
Feb 2nd, 2010, 08:04 PM
stosur's serve is not technically better...she may be a good server but let's not get carried away

BuTtErFrEnA
Feb 2nd, 2010, 08:06 PM
I'd go with either Martina's cunning court sense or Monica's mental toughness. They're both innate - you either have it or you don't. It's not a tennis stroke that can be learnt and mastered with insane amounts of practice and coaching.

my problem with martina's court sense is that, as i said, it needs the rally going...a serve takes that away from her, hence why serena and her serve beat martina

DOUBLEFIST
Feb 2nd, 2010, 08:12 PM
my problem with martina's court sense is that, as i said, it needs the rally going...a serve takes that away from her, hence why serena and her serve beat martina
Yeah, I totally agree. She had to have a point to "work." This was ultimately her down fall. In the age of "First Strike" tennis, you not going to get enough opportunities to "work" a point unless you have weapons enough to begin to dictate. Hingis did not/does not. :shrug: The game has evolved. The next great to play the game, will be the player that has hingis-like court sense (which is saying a lot) AND a devastating weapon, imo.

Olórin
Feb 2nd, 2010, 08:18 PM
Well Im completed surprised by this poll. I would have thought it would be serve and forehand 50/50 with Nav's volleys doing respectably despite the fact half the board has never seen her play and Hingis and Justine splitting the rest.

Obviously it's all just opinions. But, I think if we're going to go away from "shots" then Graf's athleticism was equal to her forehand and I would put Chris Evert's footwork above Martina Hingis' court-sense.

serenafann
Feb 2nd, 2010, 08:41 PM
A great Serve should be the foundation,of any Hall of Fame Tennis game.

Nicolás89
Feb 2nd, 2010, 09:04 PM
Well Im completed surprised by this poll. I would have thought it would be serve and forehand 50/50 with Nav's volleys doing respectably despite the fact half the board has never seen her play and Hingis and Justine splitting the rest.

Obviously it's all just opinions. But, I think if we're going to go away from "shots" then Graf's athleticism was equal to her forehand and I would put Chris Evert's footwork above Martina Hingis' court-sense.

I think this is the fourth or fifth time in this thread that you put all players' strenghts above Hingis'. You must really hate not like her game.

Dunlop1
Feb 2nd, 2010, 09:23 PM
If Steffi's movement/footwork was included in this poll this would have been my vote.
It was this that enabled her to get into position to pummel that GOAT forehand of hers.

Dunlop1
Feb 2nd, 2010, 09:44 PM
Are you saying that Stosur's serve is "technically" better or more effective?

Stosur's serve is technically a bit better than Serena's.
Stosur coils more in the loading phase. What you see is a deeper 'archer's bow'.
Doing this results in a more explosive throwing motion forward and upward when you are actually hitting the serve.
Translation: Less effort to hit a bigger serve.

What Sam does very well is use this extra juice to put a bit more spin on her serve. She possesses by far the best kick serve on the women's tour.

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dscho99
Feb 2nd, 2010, 10:06 PM
If you could only have one and why?

I think it's an interesting choice. While not the only GOAT weapons, these were the ones that came to my mind quickest. Feel free to suggest others. In fact, maybe I'll edit the poll to include an "other" choice. (if that's possible)

I can't imagine that anyone who had followed all these players during their careers and watched most of their greatest matches might chose something other than Graf's forehand. She was called "Miss Forehand" for a reason.
Her whole game was constructed around that devastating shot.

The only player who comes remotely close is Navratilova with her volley.

S. Williams (serve) and Henin (BH) are far behind.
While Serena's serve is the best ever it can't be used when her opponents serves. All the other player's weapons were/are in action all the time.
Hingis is a joke. Her "court sense" lost her in a lot of important matches.

The career winning percentage of those 5 players is revealing, BTW.

Graf 88.7 %
Navratilova 86.7 %
S. Williams 82.7 %
Henin 82.1 %
Hingis 80.5 %

dscho99
Feb 2nd, 2010, 10:09 PM
Serena's serve. A serve like that IMMEDIATELY puts fear into your opponent that they're going to be under pressure on their service games because they're (more than likely) not going to get into your service games, and they'd feel like they're playing from behind at the start.

If I ranked them:
1. Serena
2. Hingis
3. Navratilova
4. Henin
5. Graf


You obviously never have watched a Graf match.
Then why do you risk to embarrass yourself publicly? :confused:

Arnian
Feb 2nd, 2010, 10:10 PM
Serena's serve for sure, all though these are all great

dscho99
Feb 2nd, 2010, 10:11 PM
wow..tough one. When you watch some of Serena's matches and how her service games go like ace,ace, service winner, unreturned.. in like 1minute. It's cool!


Right, "some" of her matches.
Serena was far more often broken in her service games than Graf or Navratilova.

dscho99
Feb 2nd, 2010, 10:13 PM
Evert does most things brilliantly, which is why it's harder to just pick one shot and say that it won for her when the rest of her game was not working (which it never was really).

I personally would have put Seles' mental tenacity up there instead of Hingis' all-court game (it won more slams imo).



:lol:


Seles played a lot of matches during her career where there was not a lot to be seen of this "mental tenacity".

dscho99
Feb 2nd, 2010, 10:14 PM
So based on everything people are saying, is it safe to say Serena's serve is the most dominant and devastating shot in the history of the Women's game?

Only when you ask fan boys who were born post-1985 ...

Olórin
Feb 2nd, 2010, 11:48 PM
It's definitely not desireable to underestimate Martina H's tactical genius, but for all its brilliance her court sense often had to bow down to the superiority of the Serena (or more often Davenport) serve and Graf's forehand - so it's pretty clear to me that these two at least are superior assets.

Evert does most things brilliantly, which is why it's harder to just pick one shot and say that it won for her when the rest of her game was not working (which it never was really).

I personally would have put Seles' mental tenacity up there instead of Hingis' all-court game (it won more slams imo).



:lol:

Well Im completed surprised by this poll. I would have thought it would be serve and forehand 50/50 with Nav's volleys doing respectably despite the fact half the board has never seen her play and Hingis and Justine splitting the rest.

Obviously it's all just opinions. But, I think if we're going to go away from "shots" then Graf's athleticism was equal to her forehand and I would put Chris Evert's footwork above Martina Hingis' court-sense.

I think this is the fourth or fifth time in this thread that you put all players' strenghts above Hingis'. You must really hate not like her game.

:confused: Others have been far more persistent than me, that was the third post I made mentioning Hingis. And I just think other attributes are more important in big matches, big moments - as I explained. In fact, I really have trouble seeing Hingis' court-sense as an all-time great "weapon" - it was Hingis, it's like saying you would rather be Hingis, or saying Hingis herself is a weapon.
Her court sense is just so many intangibles - to use my example above, with Chris Evert's footwork it's an attribute of her game that you can subsume, it is an aspect that made her the ultimate backboard that you couldn't put away in Grand Slam Finals - you can take technical lessons watching videos of her, you can try to emulate her - you can't with Hingis' court-sense. I suppose that is also true of Monica's mentality, so upon review I retract my comment about that being superior to Hingis' court sense, because you can't really compare them.

I think we can have a whole other thread talking about Hingis' court sense, but I just don't feel it is necessarily the greatest weapon or really belongs in this poll. No offence Doublefist :lol:

FYI I actually really like Hingis' game - I have loads of her matches from the 90's and 00/01 on DVD.

DOUBLEFIST
Feb 3rd, 2010, 12:06 AM
Stosur's serve is technically a bit better than Serena's.
Stosur coils more in the loading phase. What you see is a deeper 'archer's bow'.
Doing this results in a more explosive throwing motion forward and upward when you are actually hitting the serve.
Translation: Less effort to hit a bigger serve.

What Sam does very well is use this extra juice to put a bit more spin on her serve. She possesses by far the best kick serve on the women's tour.
She definitely arches more, but bends her knees less than a healthy Serena. The advantage Sam gains with the arch (whip-like uncoiling), Serena accomplishes with a "a deeper knee bend and a "lively" arm (ie, relaxed, rubberier, whipier).

Serena serve is much more on the Sampras model. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buUs2xoEzI0 (How do you friggin' get a Youtube video to play in your post like you did?) :scratch:

However, all in all, I would say Sam's is great and really don't have a problem with it being argued that it's technically better - particularly her kick. I just thought you were saying it was more effective.


Only when you ask fan boys who were born post-1985 ...
:lol: I'm flattered, but relax, Günter. :rolleyes: This isn't a disparagement of Steffi's Goat status, So you can put you Monica hatin' six shooter back in its holster.

Steffi's still the greatest. There. You happy? Now go back to your cave.

youizahoe
Feb 3rd, 2010, 12:12 AM
Serena. just hit at the opponents so retire will show up and give the win. :lol:

spencercarlos
Feb 3rd, 2010, 12:48 AM
Some people in this thead think Serena´s serve is untouchable, sorry people its not like she is a Karlovic who´s first serve can´t e touched or that she serves 20+ aces per match :rolleyes:

Natalicious
Feb 3rd, 2010, 01:06 AM
serena's serve.
get easy points in tough situations

LightWarrior
Feb 3rd, 2010, 01:21 AM
It's an interesting thread but are you mention "weapons". Nowadays who needs:
- Evert's passing shots ? Nobody comes to the net anymore
- Nav's serve and volley game ? She would get passed by most players nowadays
- Graf's forehand ? It was devastating at the time but is matched nowadays by most players
- Hingis and Evert's consistency, no UE game ? But they were slower than most players today
etc etc...

All in all, Serena's serve is the best weapon ever. With that weapon she just needs to hold.

However you don't mention the mental weapon that Serena has (like Evert and Seles, but those two didn't have her amazing serve), which is probably more important nowadays than "weapons" per se.

Szavay #1
Feb 3rd, 2010, 01:28 AM
marti's court sense cause it totally dismantled the power game. :D

Potato
Feb 3rd, 2010, 01:48 AM
I want Jaja's and Kim Clijster's ability to slide and land in the splits on the hardcourts. :sad:

miss_molik
Feb 3rd, 2010, 01:56 AM
Roger Federer. :shrug:

:yeah::hearts:

Craig.
Feb 3rd, 2010, 02:17 AM
The Graf forehand is my all-time favorite shot and probably always will be. Serena's serve is a close second, followed by Hingis' court sense. No clue what the hell Justine's backhand's doing here.

PlayByPlay
Feb 3rd, 2010, 02:35 AM
Serena's dreaded Serve and then devasting Graf Forehand?:worship:

spencercarlos
Feb 3rd, 2010, 02:37 AM
The Graf forehand is my all-time favorite shot and probably always will be. Serena's serve is a close second, followed by Hingis' court sense. No clue what the hell Justine's backhand's doing here.
Exactly my feelings!

sorceress
Feb 3rd, 2010, 02:51 AM
The Graf forehand is my all-time favorite shot and probably always will be. Serena's serve is a close second, followed by Hingis' court sense. No clue what the hell Justine's backhand's doing here.

Yup agreed, although I think Serena's has to be the 1st because I feel like when her serve is on she is just untouchable.
The others need a serve return or successful serve for the most part to activate their power.
I agree about Justine, she's got quite the backhand but it's nowhere near as good as it should be to be listed.

DA FOREHAND
Feb 3rd, 2010, 03:58 AM
Anything that belongs to Martina, really :haha:

But Imagine someone with all those five :hearts:

Her name is Steffi Graf

DOUBLEFIST
Feb 3rd, 2010, 03:59 AM
It's an interesting thread but are you mention "weapons". Nowadays who needs:
- Evert's passing shots ? Nobody comes to the net anymore
- Nav's serve and volley game ? She would get passed by most players nowadays
- Graf's forehand ? It was devastating at the time but is matched nowadays by most players
- Hingis and Evert's consistency, no UE game ? But they were slower than most players today
etc etc...

All in all, Serena's serve is the best weapon ever. With that weapon she just needs to hold.

However you don't mention the mental weapon that Serena has (like Evert and Seles, but those two didn't have her amazing serve), which is probably more important nowadays than "weapons" per se.

Yeah, I know. There are a lot of things I could have used as weapons - Chrissy and Monica's mental strength, Monica's return of serve, Chrissy's bh down the line, Serena's mental strength, Steffi's athleticism, Nav's serve, etc ,etc, but - with the exception of Hingis - I wanted to limited it to stroke "weapons" that have been celebrated throughout the years. I included Hingis' court sense because it was all she had as a "weapon" and she did a lot with it, and upon reflection it continues to amaze most aficionados. So that's what I considered list worthy.
The Graf forehand is my all-time favorite shot and probably always will be. Serena's serve is a close second, followed by Hingis' court sense. No clue what the hell Justine's backhand's doing here. :lol:

Alright, Craig et al...

I included Henin's back hand for three reasons. One, it is friggin' pretty, and it's her signature, but most importantly, she is slowly (regrettably :rolleyes: ) playing her way toward All Time Great status. She is - aside from Vee, Serena - the only other ATG of this generation. Two, it's DAMNED effective. She uses it to do so many things - can opener angles, outright winners and, if we include the slice, it's a masterful set up for a very strong forehand. It's like her Swiss Army Knife. As a side note, personally, I think that's the shot to go after and try to break down. If you can pull that off, the match is likely yours. Anyway, Three, it's a bit of an olive branch ;)

dscho99
Feb 3rd, 2010, 05:28 AM
It's an interesting thread but are you mention "weapons". Nowadays who needs:
- Evert's passing shots ? Nobody comes to the net anymore
- Nav's serve and volley game ? She would get passed by most players nowadays
- Graf's forehand ? It was devastating at the time but is matched nowadays by most players ...

The most moronic post in years.
Unbelievable dumbness.:lol::lol:

mboyle
Feb 3rd, 2010, 06:24 AM
Where is Evert's backhand. Hers is much better than Justine's.

But I mean Serena's serve is to me the best shot in women's tennis history. It's so much better than anyone else's. Graf's forehand is probably just as good as Serena's serve, but other people have had good forehands that were just a bit behind Graf's. Serena's serve is untouched. Most women can't serve for some reason.

bandabou
Feb 3rd, 2010, 07:11 AM
Right, "some" of her matches.
Serena was far more often broken in her service games than Graf or Navratilova.

:lol: Of course...hey Calimero, r u back in town? :wavey:

PLP
Feb 3rd, 2010, 07:12 AM
Name their "weapon?"

I thought about Evert's down the line bh, as I did Hingis', but it wasn't really a weapon, per say. I guess it could be argue, but I just didn't think so.

When I think of Monica, no single weapon comes to mind. Just consistency, fight and relentless groundies.

Which just goes to show you that not every alltime great had a single defining weapon. But the poll was about just that - single defining weapons.

Evert's consistency and Monica's relentlessness, but I think you gave some really great options.

Martina's court sense for me, because when she was playing her best it was the most 'fun' I have every seen a champion have on the court...great to watch. Steffi's forehand was a very close second, such a scary and awesome shot.

bandabou
Feb 3rd, 2010, 07:17 AM
What makes Serena's serve great isn't the sheer pace of it.
It is the pace and variety of the stroke.

A server who can flatten it up the T at 120mph or can hit a short angled slice serve out wide at 90mph with almost the same toss, makes life tremendously difficult for the returner.
She not only has the power on the serve, but can vary the spins and has pinpoint placement.
Truly the women's GSOAT (Greatest Serve Of All Time)

As a student of the game and a fan of the technical aspects of the game, I have a lot of respect for the Serena serve.
I love the simplicity of her technique on the shot.

Now there are other players with really good technique on the 1st and 2nd serve e.g Dani Hantuchova, but Serena is genetically blessed with really strong/big shoulders so that when she rotates them during the serve, she generates massive racquet head speed resulting in a powerful serve.

IMO, Stosur has a slightly better serve than Serena, but she has a C- ground game. Her lack of game off the ground and the fact that she doesn't S&V means that she has to go for more on her serve, thus making more mistakes.

Serena has the combo of being great off the ground and having a good serve.

(PS.
I still think Serena is a very obnoxious person and is full of herself.
That is all)


You nailed it.. some other people might have lil bit better technique, hit harder, whatver.

But none has the total combo like Serena has: pace, technique, disguise, placement. When a great returner like Lindsay says she had no idea where you were gonna serve, then you know you're good.

Princeza
Feb 3rd, 2010, 09:01 AM
Hingis court sense.

AlwaysGraf
Feb 3rd, 2010, 09:06 AM
So based on everything people are saying, is it safe to say Serena's serve is the most dominant and devastating shot in the history of the Women's game?


Based on a few posts her errr no!
It's Graf's forehand! Serena ha got a great serve, but everyone talks about Graf's forehand as the greatest shot in women's tennis history.Case closed!

bandabou
Feb 3rd, 2010, 09:50 AM
Based on a few posts her errr no!
It's Graf's forehand! Serena ha got a great serve, but everyone talks about Graf's forehand as the greatest shot in women's tennis history.Case closed!

Uhum..but Serena's serve is a good/great second, right?

DOUBLEFIST
Feb 3rd, 2010, 09:54 AM
Uhum..but Serena's serve is a good/great second, right?
It's not second. It's first.

FrOzon
Feb 3rd, 2010, 10:10 AM
Some people in this thead think Serena´s serve is untouchable, sorry people its not like she is a Karlovic who´s first serve can´t e touched or that she serves 20+ aces per match :rolleyes:

And even Karlovic gets broken.

Break My Rapture
Feb 3rd, 2010, 12:36 PM
Serena's serve, by far.

Martina's court sense comes in second.

Thkmra
Feb 3rd, 2010, 04:22 PM
The most moronic post in years.
Unbelievable dumbness.:lol::lol:

No that pretty much done on actually. The games constantly evolves, and much of thier 'gifts' today would be nullified even void.

Sund7101
Feb 3rd, 2010, 04:39 PM
Hingis' court sense-nobody can learn that or practice that.

I would love to have Serena's serve though...

SerenaSlam
Feb 3rd, 2010, 07:25 PM
i match up the choices against eachother. at the end of the day serena's serve wins over all of them hands down. there is no point to graf's forehand because of serena's serve. just like henins backhand nav's volleys and hingis' court sense (she used her court sense very well against S. Williams in 2001 US Open :yikes: ) lol

fyi all of these peoples attributes are great...some are just better than others

serena's serve

SerenaSlam
Feb 3rd, 2010, 07:28 PM
Some people in this thead think Serena´s serve is untouchable, sorry people its not like she is a Karlovic who´s first serve can´t e touched or that she serves 20+ aces per match :rolleyes:

what is being said that her serve is thought to be "untouchable" or is it just the amount of people that chose serena's serve as the choice what makes you feel that way? and yes she doesn't serve 20+ aces a match but she averages about 10-15 a match...id take that over a forehand that can't touch my serve 10-15 times a match and if they do its a service winner or weak reply....IMO IMO IMO AGAIN my OPINION!

Chrissie-fan
Feb 3rd, 2010, 07:41 PM
The Graf forehand for me because I could use it throughout the match. Great as Serena's serve is, I could only use it for half of the match - namely my own service games.

dscho99
Feb 3rd, 2010, 08:47 PM
Where is Evert's backhand. Hers is much better than Justine's.

But I mean Serena's serve is to me the best shot in women's tennis history. It's so much better than anyone else's. Graf's forehand is probably just as good as Serena's serve, but other people have had good forehands that were just a bit behind Graf's. Serena's serve is untouched. Most women can't serve for some reason.


Navratilova and Graf had great serves, too.
Versatile, reliable and fast. With OLD racquets.
With today's racquets Graf would hit as fast as the best.
And more consistent than Serena. Serena had many matches in the last years when her serve lost her almost completely. She had matches against players outside of the top 20 in which she was broken multiple times.

dscho99
Feb 3rd, 2010, 08:50 PM
You nailed it.. some other people might have lil bit better technique, hit harder, whatver.

But none has the total combo like Serena has: pace, technique, disguise, placement. When a great returner like Lindsay says she had no idea where you were gonna serve, then you know you're good.


Then why did Serena lose to "all-time greats" like Testud (twice), Likhovtseva, Suarez, Shaughnessy, Schnyder (4 times), Rubin, Petrova (twice), Zvonareva (twice), Jidkova, Farina Elia, Schiavone (twice), Craybas, Sun, Hantuchova, Bammer (twice), Chan, Chakvetadse, Srebotnik, Wozniak, Na Li, Azarenka, Zakopalova, Stosur in 1999-2009?
Obviously they HAD an idea where Serena was going to serve ...:tape:

dscho99
Feb 3rd, 2010, 08:51 PM
Hingis court sense.


Right, that's why she won most of her slam finals!

Oh, wait ...
:lol::lol:

Federer&Hingis
Feb 3rd, 2010, 08:53 PM
Graf's forehand

dscho99
Feb 3rd, 2010, 08:55 PM
It's not second. It's first.


Then why was Serena's serve broken far more often than Navratilova's or Graf's?

dscho99
Feb 3rd, 2010, 08:58 PM
Serena's serve, by far.

Martina's court sense comes in second.


Yes, that's why they have a career winning percentage of 82 and 81 percentage respectively and Graf and Navratilova are only at 89 and 87 percent ...
:aparty:

DOUBLEFIST
Feb 3rd, 2010, 09:00 PM
Then why was Serena's serve broken far more often than Navratilova's or Graf's?
Stats please?
Yes, that's why they have a career winning percentage of 82 and 81 percentage respectively and Graf and Navratilova are only at 89 and 87 percent ...
:aparty:
You seem to operate under the illusion that all of these greats wins were ONLY because their primary weapon and thus you run to this winning percentage whenever you can. That's silly. These players had other advantages. But aside from all that, the depth of the Women's field has, by far, increased since back then. It was an easier prospect to rack up a large percentage of wins back in the day.

Anyhow, Congrats to Hingis. I never would have thought her Court Sense would be running second in this poll. :yeah:

Break My Rapture
Feb 3rd, 2010, 09:01 PM
:rolleyes:

Then why was Serena's serve broken far more often than Navratilova's or Graf's?
Because, the game has developped since their era and now players have better returns etc so that's why the women get broken more often now then in Nav and Graf era. :speakles:

dscho99
Feb 3rd, 2010, 09:12 PM
Stats please?


Serena lost 94 of 544 matches (17.3 percent).
Graf 115 of 1017 (11.3 percent).

Serena didn't lose to Testud (twice), Likhovtseva, Suarez, Shaughnessy, Schnyder (4 times), Rubin, Petrova (twice), Zvonareva (twice), Jidkova, Farina Elia, Schiavone (twice), Craybas, Sun, Hantuchova, Bammer (twice), Chan, Chakvetadse, Srebotnik, Wozniak, Na Li, Azarenka, Zakopalova, Stosur in 1999-2009 without being broken (several times mostly).

dscho99
Feb 3rd, 2010, 09:15 PM
:rolleyes:


Because, the game has developped since their era and now players have better returns etc ....


And that's why Kimiko Date, who was a top-5 player for only a few months in the mid-90ies, who retired in 1996 and who came back recently, has beaten several top-30 players at age 39 .... ?
:haha::haha::haha:

What a "development" .... :tape:

dscho99
Feb 3rd, 2010, 09:17 PM
Stats please?

You seem to operate under the illusion that all of these greats wins were ONLY because their primary weapon and thus you run to this winning percentage whenever you can. That's silly. These players had other advantages. But aside from all that, the depth of the Women's field has, by far, increased since back then. ...

And that's why Kimiko Date (39) has beaten several top-30 players recently, yes?

BTW, does your mom know that you keep on embarrassing yourself in a public internet forum? :tape:

Dodoboy.
Feb 3rd, 2010, 09:44 PM
Serena's serve, best shot in the history of the women's game.

DOUBLEFIST
Feb 3rd, 2010, 09:47 PM
Serena lost 94 of 544 matches (17.3 percent).
Graf 115 of 1017 (11.3 percent).

Serena didn't lose to Testud (twice), Likhovtseva, Suarez, Shaughnessy, Schnyder (4 times), Rubin, Petrova (twice), Zvonareva (twice), Jidkova, Farina Elia, Schiavone (twice), Craybas, Sun, Hantuchova, Bammer (twice), Chan, Chakvetadse, Srebotnik, Wozniak, Na Li, Azarenka, Zakopalova, Stosur in 1999-2009 without being broken (several times mostly).
YOU made a statement about how many times the serves were broken. I'm asking for THOSE stats. Find them and post them.

new-york
Feb 3rd, 2010, 09:49 PM
Serena's serve.

Making a statement from the first shot. :cool:

DOUBLEFIST
Feb 3rd, 2010, 10:02 PM
BTW, does your mom know that you keep on embarrassing yourself in a public internet forum? :tape:
Does your mom know if your restraining order still in place, Gunter? :tape:

dscho99
Feb 3rd, 2010, 10:18 PM
YOU made a statement about how many times the serves were broken. I'm asking for THOSE stats. Find them and post them.


YOU are suggesting that Serena's serve is the best ever and a stronger weapon than "Miss Forehand's" forehand.
Then YOU have to provide facts.
Especially the fact that Serena was broken less than the greatest players of the game (Graf, Navratilova).

DOUBLEFIST
Feb 3rd, 2010, 10:25 PM
YOU are suggesting that Serena's serve is the best ever and a stronger weapon than "Miss Forehand's" forehand.
Then YOU have to provide facts.
Especially the fact that Serena was broken less than the greatest players of the game (Graf, Navratilova).
Listen, Gunter.

I merely posted the poll and asked the question and offered an OPINION, and it would seem the people around here largely agree. Further, they don't even rank Steffi's forehand above Martina's Court Sense, but that's beside the point.

YOU the one who said she was broken MORE than Steffi. YOU made an assertion that implies you have EXACT KNOWLEDGE of HOW MANY TIMES the two were broken. Provide it or stfu. :shrug:

LDVTennis
Feb 4th, 2010, 02:57 AM
Anyhow, Congrats to Hingis. I never would have thought her Court Sense would be running second in this poll. :yeah:

You polled a bunch of half-wits and fanboys, what else do you expect? But, hey, don't let me deprive you of the validation you seek. --- :lol::lol::lol:

Nicolás89
Feb 4th, 2010, 03:14 AM
Anyhow, Congrats to Hingis. I never would have thought her Court Sense would be running second in this poll. :yeah:

Seriously, like seriously, what is this hate Serena's fans have on Hingis' game?
I'm sorry to burst some bubbles here but Serena's serve is something ANYONE with more dedication could emulate. No one would EVER emulate what Hingis did on court.

DOUBLEFIST
Feb 4th, 2010, 05:27 AM
Seriously, like seriously, what is this hate Serena's fans have on Hingis' game?
I'm sorry to burst some bubbles here but Serena's serve is something ANYONE with more dedication could emulate. No one would EVER emulate what Hingis did on court.
Aside from the fact that I disagree with your post, if anyone could emulate it, there would be a lot more girls with that serve, but here's what I really wanted to say...

I don't dislike Martina. I was trying to congratulate her and her fans. That result simply surprised me. That's all I was trying to express. If I REALLY hated her, I wouldn't have included her the poll. Her's IS the only "non-stroke" weapon, but I included it out of respect.











Though I do admit I am a recovered Hingis Hataholic from back in the Venus v/s Hingis war days. ;)

DOUBLEFIST
Feb 4th, 2010, 06:44 AM
You polled a bunch of half-wits and fanboys, what else do you expect? But, hey, don't let me deprive you of the validation you seek. --- :lol::lol::lol:
:rolleyes: Classic "hate the message, shoot the messenger." :shrug:

fightserena!!!
Feb 4th, 2010, 07:02 AM
I would take Serena's serve, but even more than that I'd take her mental strength - I wold argue it has won her more slams than even her serve.

WowWow
Feb 4th, 2010, 07:11 AM
Graf fh and Sharapova's grunts.

bandabou
Feb 4th, 2010, 07:21 AM
Then why did Serena lose to "all-time greats" like Testud (twice), Likhovtseva, Suarez, Shaughnessy, Schnyder (4 times), Rubin, Petrova (twice), Zvonareva (twice), Jidkova, Farina Elia, Schiavone (twice), Craybas, Sun, Hantuchova, Bammer (twice), Chan, Chakvetadse, Srebotnik, Wozniak, Na Li, Azarenka, Zakopalova, Stosur in 1999-2009?
Obviously they HAD an idea where Serena was going to serve ...:tape:

Lori Mcneil anybody? :lol: Good to have you back, Cali.

Now how many of those happened at MAJORS?

bandabou
Feb 4th, 2010, 07:24 AM
Navratilova and Graf had great serves, too.
Versatile, reliable and fast. With OLD racquets.
With today's racquets Graf would hit as fast as the best.
And more consistent than Serena. Serena had many matches in the last years when her serve lost her almost completely. She had matches against players outside of the top 20 in which she was broken multiple times.

Nobody said that Serena was the only good serve..but Serena does have the greatest serve. It ain't about hitting big..many players hit bigger serves than Serena.

Experimentee
Feb 4th, 2010, 10:37 AM
Serve is the most important shot in tennis, so I'd pick that.

BuTtErFrEnA
Feb 4th, 2010, 11:30 AM
it's amazing how everyone is downplaying the serena serve, when the all time greats have always said it's the best shot and serve in history :lol:

dsanders06
Feb 4th, 2010, 12:37 PM
This poll is ridiculous. The serve isn't even Serena's biggest weapon (her mental strength is), nevermind the biggest weapon in tennis history.

dsanders06
Feb 4th, 2010, 12:38 PM
it's amazing how everyone is downplaying the serena serve, when the all time greats have always said it's the best shot and serve in history :lol:

Name one great who has said Serena's serve is the best shot in history.

bandabou
Feb 4th, 2010, 01:22 PM
Plus for those who say that Serena's serve gets broken from time to time, so it can't be that good. Like Graf only hit winners with her forehand?! :lol:

BuTtErFrEnA
Feb 4th, 2010, 02:02 PM
graf NEVER missed a fh...never lost even with her fh :shrug: thought you knew that bandy

dsanders06
Feb 4th, 2010, 03:02 PM
Plus for those who say that Serena's serve gets broken from time to time, so it can't be that good. Like Graf only hit winners with her forehand?! :lol:

When Graf was at her best, her forehand really would only break down in about two matches a year, maximum. While Serena's serve is obviously very good, she has a lot more than two off-days a year with it.

bandabou
Feb 4th, 2010, 03:08 PM
When Graf was at her best, her forehand really would only break down in about two matches a year, maximum. While Serena's serve is obviously very good, she has a lot more than two off-days a year with it.

Ok..interesting. still to my knowledge Graf only had one year when she lost 2 matches or less. ;)

No, it's good..I'm not going so far to say that Serena's serve is greater shot than Graf's forehand. But it certainly is top 3 at least of biggest weapons in tennis history imo.

dscho99
Feb 4th, 2010, 06:00 PM
Listen, Gunter.

I merely posted the poll and asked the question and offered an OPINION, and it would seem the people around here largely agree. Further, they don't even rank Steffi's forehand above Martina's Court Sense, but that's beside the point.

YOU the one who said she was broken MORE than Steffi. YOU made an assertion that implies you have EXACT KNOWLEDGE of HOW MANY TIMES the two were broken. Provide it or stfu. :shrug:

People around here are mostly US teenagers, what do you expect?

We know that Graf won 902 of 1017 matches and Serena only 450 of 544 - a very significant difference. Graf's winning percentage is so much higher that it would be moronic to suggest she achieved this ONLY by winning more opponents' service games.

dscho99
Feb 4th, 2010, 06:04 PM
Seriously, like seriously, what is this hate Serena's fans have on Hingis' game?
I'm sorry to burst some bubbles here but Serena's serve is something ANYONE with more dedication could emulate. No one would EVER emulate what Hingis did on court.


Why did Hingis' court sense leave her in so many important matches?
Have you ever watched Evert, Navratilova or Graf apply THEIR court sense?
Hingis had ONLY court sense (and good placement); the really great players had it as well - and far more.

dscho99
Feb 4th, 2010, 06:06 PM
Lori Mcneil anybody? :lol: Good to have you back, Cali.

Now how many of those happened at MAJORS?


McNeil was top 20.
Those players who beat Serena weren't.

Bandy, you are my eternal rag-doll ...

dscho99
Feb 4th, 2010, 06:09 PM
it's amazing how everyone is downplaying the serena serve, when the all time greats have always said it's the best shot and serve in history :lol:

Which of the all times greats have said it is the best shot?
I don't think even one of the all-time AMERICAN greats have said this.
Not even speaking of Court or Graf.

dscho99
Feb 4th, 2010, 06:12 PM
This poll is ridiculous. The serve isn't even Serena's biggest weapon (her mental strength is), nevermind the biggest weapon in tennis history.


Mental strength?
Then why did she collapse mentally in so many matches?
Why did she win only two slams from August 2003 until August 2008 (that is five years!)? Obviously thinking too much about her movie career. That's not mental strength in my book ...:lol:

dscho99
Feb 4th, 2010, 06:13 PM
Name one great who has said Serena's serve is the best shot in history.


Venus Williams ... ?
:haha::haha:

dscho99
Feb 4th, 2010, 06:17 PM
Venus Williams ... ?
:haha::haha:

graf NEVER missed a fh...never lost even with her fh :shrug: thought you knew that bandy


When a 22-slam winner who has won a Golden Grand Slam is called "Miss Forehand" everywhere and a 12-slam winner is NOT called "Miss Serve" anywhere you really don't need to be a rocket scientist to know positively that the former's forehand was greater than the latter's serve. :angel:

*Jool*
Feb 4th, 2010, 07:03 PM
I'd go with Hingis's court sense

Steff_forever
Feb 4th, 2010, 07:31 PM
Why did Hingis' court sense leave her in so many important matches?
Have you ever watched Evert, Navratilova or Graf apply THEIR court sense?
Hingis had ONLY court sense (and good placement); the really great players had it as well - and far more.
Martina's and Monica's game was a shocker to most of us Graf fans. Martina's intelligence to open the court disabled Steffi's forehand in many matches as did Monica's ankle game. Don't get me wrong: Steffi's forehand was unique in the 80ies and early 90ies, made her a dominating threat to most of her opponents. But that changed with Monica at the end of '88 and in '96 when Martina came up.

Serena's serve is not that dominating as it seems. If she really wants to win the title, it's more her mental strength to get it in than the power itself.

I voted for Martina not because I don't love that forehand Steffi celebrated (which I enthusiastically gazed in amazement since 1984) but I saw just 2 players who really made it possible to cope with it...
So cudos to Monica and Martina here.

And that from a Graf fanatic like me :rolleyes:

Nicolás89
Feb 4th, 2010, 08:56 PM
Why did Hingis' court sense leave her in so many important matches?
Have you ever watched Evert, Navratilova or Graf apply THEIR court sense?
Hingis had ONLY court sense (and good placement); the really great players had it as well - and far more.

The topic is about players' individual weapons, Hingis' of course wouldn't be the favorite in a match against Serena or others.

IMO Hingis' unique feel for the game is something MUCH more valuable than a great serve, a forehand, volleys, etc.

dscho99
Feb 4th, 2010, 10:15 PM
Martina's and Monica's game was a shocker to most of us Graf fans. Martina's intelligence to open the court disabled Steffi's forehand in many matches as did Monica's ankle game. ...

:lol:
Graf is 7-2 H2H against Hingis.
After her knee surgery in 1997 Graf played three times against peak Hingis.
A win in Philadelphia 1998 with 62 46 60.
A loss in Tokyo 1999 with 63 26 46 (Graf lead 43 when she pulled her calf muscle).
A win at FO 1999 with 46 75 62.
Over-the-hill Graf against peak Hingis: 45-36 in games played.

Graf is 10-5 H2H against Seles.
3-2 when Seles was #1 pre-stabbing.
Slumping Graf against peak Seles.70-60 in games played.


Would you please change your name?:mad:

bandabou
Feb 4th, 2010, 10:20 PM
McNeil was top 20.
Those players who beat Serena weren't.

Bandy, you are my eternal rag-doll ...

Good one..:lol: But I'm out of it. Steffi's forehand..but Serena's serve ain't all too bad.

Steff_forever
Feb 4th, 2010, 10:52 PM
:lol:
Graf is 7-2 H2H against Hingis.
After her knee surgery in 1997 Graf played three times against peak Hingis.
A win in Philadelphia 1998 with 62 46 60.
A loss in Tokyo 1999 with 63 26 46 (Graf lead 43 when she pulled her calf muscle).
A win at FO 1999 with 46 75 62.
Over-the-hill Graf against peak Hingis: 45-36 in games played.

Graf is 10-5 H2H against Seles.
3-2 when Seles was #1 pre-stabbing.
Slumping Graf against peak Seles.70-60 in games played.


Would you please change your name?:mad:
Die Statistiken brauchst Du mir nicht um die Ohren zu schlagen, die kenn ich selbst :yawn:

We talk about the weapons here not ordinary numbers :rolleyes:

Your statistical overloads are still brainless; even if you change your name, your style dismantles your flatness.

Try and change you name again pls, it won't help ;)

dscho99
Feb 4th, 2010, 11:04 PM
Good one..:lol: But I'm out of it. Steffi's forehand..but Serena's serve ain't all too bad.


Probably the best ever. But Graf and others were/are not far behind.

Graf's forehand, though, was the best by far.

dscho99
Feb 4th, 2010, 11:08 PM
Die Statistiken brauchst Du mir nicht um die Ohren zu schlagen, die kenn ich selbst :yawn:

We talk about the weapons here not ordinary numbers ...


Sorry, but some joker didn't do that but posted this BS: "Martina's intelligence to open the court disabled Steffi's forehand in many matches as did Monica's ankle game. ... "

That about players who at their peaks had a LOSING record against an over-the-hill/slumping Graf. Un-be-lie-va-ble!!!:lol::tape::help:

Steff_forever
Feb 4th, 2010, 11:17 PM
Sorry, but some joker didn't do that but posted this BS: "Martina's intelligence to open the court disabled Steffi's forehand in many matches as did Monica's ankle game. ... "

That about players who at their peaks had a LOSING record against an over-the-hill/slumping Graf. Un-be-lie-va-ble!!!:lol::tape::help:
the same shitty old vomit as before ! :kiss:

Wahrscheinlich schmeissen sie Dich eh bald wieder raus :lol:

dscho99
Feb 4th, 2010, 11:24 PM
the same shitty old vomit as before ! :kiss:

Wahrscheinlich schmeissen sie Dich eh bald wieder raus :lol:


Well, in which of the 9 matches Hingis played against Graf did her "intelligence to open the court" disable Steffi's forehand?

Hingis won two matches against Graf.
1996 in Rome and 1999 in Tokyo. I bet you didn't watch those matches. Because the Rome match was not on TV in Germany and the Tokyo match was only a tape-relayed 20 min version.


I know, facts suck ...:nerner:

G1Player2
Feb 4th, 2010, 11:25 PM
Mental strength?
Then why did she collapse mentally in so many matches?
Why did she win only two slams from August 2003 until August 2008 (that is five years!)? Obviously thinking too much about her movie career. That's not mental strength in my book ...:lol:


You seem to forget the fact that Serena had a career threatening injury in August 2003 while she was No.1 and had just won 5 of the last 6 slams. Not to mention the devastating death of her sister just weeks after that and her movement has never been the sane again. She was also only 21 at the time. Kind of like Seles getting stabbed at just 19. ;). Besides, you should be happy about the surgery considering Henin won back to back slams after that where Serena was defending champ at both. :wavey:

DOUBLEFIST
Feb 5th, 2010, 03:55 AM
Martina's and Monica's game was a shocker to most of us Graf fans. Martina's intelligence to open the court disabled Steffi's forehand in many matches as did Monica's ankle game. Don't get me wrong: Steffi's forehand was unique in the 80ies and early 90ies, made her a dominating threat to most of her opponents. But that changed with Monica at the end of '88 and in '96 when Martina came up.

Serena's serve is not that dominating as it seems. If she really wants to win the title, it's more her mental strength to get it in than the power itself.

I voted for Martina not because I don't love that forehand Steffi celebrated (which I enthusiastically gazed in amazement since 1984) but I saw just 2 players who really made it possible to cope with it...
So cudos to Monica and Martina here.

And that from a Graf fanatic like me :rolleyes:
I appreciate your honesty. Obviously, I don't agree with your choice. I think, by most anybody's standards, Serena's serve is DAMN dominant. I shudder to think what would have happened in the third set of the AO final had she not begin to DOMINATE on serve. I'd take a look at that last game of the match again. Anyway, be that as it may, that's not the point of the thread. The point is to have people voice what THEY would rather have, NOT what's most dominant.

LightWarrior
Feb 5th, 2010, 04:07 AM
The topic is about players' individual weapons, Hingis' of course wouldn't be the favorite in a match against Serena or others.

IMO Hingis' unique feel for the game is something MUCH more valuable than a great serve, a forehand, volleys, etc.

She got so much feel that she got high.

Nicolás89
Feb 5th, 2010, 04:28 AM
She got so much feel that she got high.

.... Are you actually looking for response? :shrug:

Renalicious
Feb 5th, 2010, 08:04 AM
Serena's serve no doubt. But Graf's forehand as a second.

Caralenko
Feb 5th, 2010, 09:09 AM
I never realized how under-appreciated Martina Navratilova's perfectly timed volleys were.

dscho99
Feb 5th, 2010, 09:32 PM
You seem to forget the fact that Serena had a career threatening injury in August 2003 while she was No.1 and had just won 5 of the last 6 slams. Not to mention the devastating death of her sister just weeks after that ...

:eek:

G1Player2
Feb 5th, 2010, 09:35 PM
:eek:

Why so shocked? No doubt in my mind Serena would have ALOT more than 12 slams if not for that near career ending injury in August 2003 at AGE 21. She has not been the same consistently since. And, like I said, this is why Henin was able to win a few more slams during that absence. :)

Shinjiro
Feb 5th, 2010, 10:00 PM
Fraulein's forehand.

DA FOREHAND
Feb 6th, 2010, 02:20 AM
Hingis's court sense was hardly a weapon, and that "weapon" was often disarmed by a well placed big babe shot

Lord Choc Ice
Feb 6th, 2010, 02:33 AM
True, but then 80.5% of the time when she played, it didn't. So I think it's as good a weapon as any of the others.

sputnikmoments
Feb 6th, 2010, 02:49 AM
Can anyone elaborate on what Hingis' court sense encompasses? I know she was able to take the ball early, but what other things did she do that made her so effective at her peak?

dscho99
Feb 6th, 2010, 08:19 AM
Can anyone elaborate on what Hingis' court sense encompasses? I know she was able to take the ball early, but what other things did she do that made her so effective at her peak?


Good placement.
Hingis was the greatest pusher ever.

Monzanator
Feb 6th, 2010, 08:43 AM
Can't argue with that. Court sense leads straight to being a pusher game-wise. I wonder how many pusher bashers actually chose this option in the poll :lol:

Juanes
Feb 6th, 2010, 09:36 AM
navratilova´s volleys :D

AnywhereButHome
Feb 6th, 2010, 11:33 AM
Serena's serve

DOUBLEFIST
Feb 6th, 2010, 12:51 PM
Good placement.
Hingis was the greatest pusher ever.

Hingis wasn't a pusher. :rolleyes:

Can anyone elaborate on what Hingis' court sense encompasses? I know she was able to take the ball early, but what other things did she do that made her so effective at her peak?
Yes, she took the ball early (not something that I associate as being typical of a "pusher"), she "worked" the point, seemingly being at least 3 or 4 shots ahead of her opponent. It seemed like she knew where her opponent was going to be before they did, oftentimes.

BuTtErFrEnA
Feb 6th, 2010, 01:55 PM
hingis was good...but i'd have to agree with da forehand...


Hingis's court sense was hardly a weapon, and that "weapon" was often disarmed by a well placed big babe shot

this depended on her being in control, and it was easy against some opponents, but as i had stated previously: big serve or big return to draw the short ball - easy put away, thereby leaving hingis with hardly any time to use her guile...much like most weapons that have to come from rallying, that's why i would choose serena's serve

Donny
Feb 6th, 2010, 10:36 PM
You polled a bunch of half-wits and fanboys, what else do you expect? But, hey, don't let me deprive you of the validation you seek. --- :lol::lol::lol:

Hey, where have you been buddy? You've been gone since the AO final, I thought you might have done something bad to yourself.