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Or Levy
Oct 19th, 2009, 10:34 AM
Concern in the Israeli camp, as Shahar's Visa to Bali hasn't arrived yet.Indonesia has pulled out of Fed cup against Israel in 2006, and any refusal on their part to grant the Israeli the Visa wouldn't surprise anyone.

Amit Naor (Djoko's agent, who usually deals with all of those issues for the Israeli players) said he was promised the tournament would be canceled if Shahar won't get the visa.

Early days. To be continued...It would be a terrible shame if she couldn't play after qualifying.

(

Tanja8
Oct 19th, 2009, 10:37 AM
I agree that the tournament should be cancelled if they don`t give visa to Shahar.
I hope the WTA has another place to replace Bali in this case.

Sam L
Oct 19th, 2009, 10:40 AM
The tournament should be canceled if she doesn't get her visa. :mad:

Lord Choc Ice
Oct 19th, 2009, 10:48 AM
This rubbish again? :rolleyes:

ElusiveChanteuse
Oct 19th, 2009, 11:10 AM
Indeed. Again?:rolleyes: Bali should be banned from organising any events.:o

young_gunner913
Oct 19th, 2009, 11:12 AM
not again. :o

Meteor Shower
Oct 19th, 2009, 11:15 AM
not again. :o

x2

Although its not that surprising I guess.

Elwin.
Oct 19th, 2009, 11:30 AM
oh god :o
Not this shit again!

No more wta event in those countries please! :rolleyes:
Shahar deserves to play there

auntie janie
Oct 19th, 2009, 12:59 PM
Amit Naor (Djoko's agent, who usually deals with all of those issues for the Israeli players) said he was promised the tournament would be canceled if Shahar won't get the visa.

I hope her visa will come through soon, but if not, they really do have to cancel the tournament. It's horrible, and I hope the WTA is right on top of this.

pwayne
Oct 19th, 2009, 01:32 PM
Will be interesting to see what Stacey Allaster would do if Shahar is denied.

Mynarco
Oct 19th, 2009, 01:34 PM
I do hope shahar would be able to play

Wiggly
Oct 19th, 2009, 01:36 PM
The WTA must be secretly pissed Shahar won those two weaaak MM events. :lol:

youizahoe
Oct 19th, 2009, 01:46 PM
Foreign policy, it's not the tournament's fault if she doesn't get accepted, time to move on.

Tanja8
Oct 19th, 2009, 02:11 PM
Foreign policy, it's not the tournament's fault if she doesn't get accepted, time to move on.
Of course it`s not tournament fault. But WTA can`t have tournaments in countries which don`t allow all players to come there.

austennis
Oct 19th, 2009, 02:14 PM
i feel sorry for Shahar and she deserves the right to play a tournament like this :)
However, each country also has the right to grant and refuse visas and if the indonesian gov dosnt grant visas to Israelis in general then its not unusual or surprising... That said i still think she should b given the visa cause she can represent a different side of israel and wont b there promoting a Zionist cause or anything other than her sport and her ability

auntie janie
Oct 19th, 2009, 02:17 PM
Foreign policy, it's not the tournament's fault if she doesn't get accepted, time to move on.

Okay, sure. So you think it would have been fine for the WTA to hold tournaments in South Africa during apartheid? Even though Serena and Venus would have been denied visas because of South Africa's policies? Because after all, apartheid was "foreign policy, not the tournament's fault". :rolleyes:

People need to use their brains.

ZODIAC
Oct 19th, 2009, 02:28 PM
I hope Venus will not be forced to speak up,she did her part so someone else has to fight Shahar s battles ...I think this is becoming a cancer for the WTA everytime they are fighting Shahar s battles...

austennis
Oct 19th, 2009, 02:31 PM
Okay, sure. So you think it would have been fine for the WTA to hold tournaments in South Africa during apartheid? Even though Serena and Venus would have been denied visas because of South Africa's policies? Because after all, apartheid was "foreign policy, not the tournament's fault".
People need to use their brains.

whilst this is a good example - Indonesia is not aparthied South Africa, Indonesia has not yet rejected her visa, she will be playing in Bali a Hindu island which might make things easier for her and finally foreign policy and sport might not mix but often players function as ambasadors for their country and sometimes this will have a positive effect and other times a negative 1

Hachiko
Oct 19th, 2009, 02:33 PM
Should be canceled.

Randy H
Oct 19th, 2009, 02:35 PM
I hope Venus will not be forced to speak up,she did her part so someone else has to fight Shahar s battles ...I think this is becoming a cancer for the WTA everytime they are fighting Shahar s battles...

1. Venus was not forced to speak up, she's an eloquent, and intelligent woman who has always stood her ground - If she does or does not want to speak on any topic, she will let you know.

2. This is not Shahar's battle, this is the WTA Tour's battle. They are the ones who chose to hold tournaments in countries that do not grant all nations equal right to enter the country and compete...That is not Shahar's fault, nor should it be her problem. The WTA has an obligation to the players to put tournaments in places where there is not prejudice. If Bali or any other tournament told the WTA there would be no Visa issues for Shahar, or any other player based solely on the country they are from, then they need to be held accountable to that and penalized. The tournament needs to be canceled if that is the case, and Bali should not be used as a tournament site on the WTA until that is resolved.

youizahoe
Oct 19th, 2009, 02:37 PM
Of course it`s not tournament fault. But WTA can`t have tournaments in countries which don`t allow all players to come there.

Ofcourse, I do agree on that, but don't blame the organization is all that I'm saying.

Okay, sure. So you think it would have been fine for the WTA to hold tournaments in South Africa during apartheid? Even though Serena and Venus would have been denied visas because of South Africa's policies? Because after all, apartheid was "foreign policy, not the tournament's fault". :rolleyes:

People need to use their brains.

The tournament is only responsible for applying the visa's for their players, not for getting them granted, that's not within their legal power, the WTA and the Tournaments still aren't, above the law, or are they?

You should take the part in bold, as a good tip for yourself.

Randy H
Oct 19th, 2009, 02:38 PM
whilst this is a good example - Indonesia is not aparthied South Africa, Indonesia has not yet rejected her visa, she will be playing in Bali a Hindu island which might make things easier for her and finally foreign policy and sport might not mix but often players function as ambasadors for their country and sometimes this will have a positive effect and other times a negative 1

Just because you may be an ambassador to your country (and not all people feel they are surely), doesn't mean you agree with everything done in your country. I am proud to be a Canadian citizen, does that mean that I agree with everything my Government chooses to do? Do you agree with everything your Government does? Why should you, I, or anyone else be penalized for that, when we are merely trying to compete under fair circumstances in the profession we have? I'm shocked that this is even an issue of debate...

Yarden
Oct 19th, 2009, 02:38 PM
Shit. not again.
well I hope Shahar will get to play there and if not, it should be canceled.

Randy H
Oct 19th, 2009, 02:41 PM
Ofcourse, I do agree on that, but don't blame the organization is all that I'm saying.



The tournament is only responsible for applying the visa's for their players, not for getting them granted, that's not within their legal power, the WTA and the Tournaments still aren't, above the law, or are they?

You should take the part in bold, as a good tip for yourself.

If Peer personally did something, which caused just reason for rejecting her Visa, then that would be her fault and her penalty...This has happened for players before, and the WTA has not and cannot step in.

But when it is due to an issue of discrimination and prejudice, we are talking about a whole different game, and the WTA has a responsibility as an organization to let players and tournaments know that they will not accept that. If this means that they have to stop holding tournaments in countries where this is an issue, then that's what they need to do.

DragonFlame
Oct 19th, 2009, 02:43 PM
If she gets denied again Wta MUST cancel this tournament.:( We all know this, and there´s no denieing it. I´d be even more disappointed with the WTA if it didn´t get cancelled.

youizahoe
Oct 19th, 2009, 02:47 PM
If Peer personally did something, which caused just reason for rejecting her Visa, then that would be her fault and her penalty...This has happened for players before, and the WTA has not and cannot step in.

But when it is due to an issue of discrimination and prejudice, we are talking about a whole different game, and the WTA has a responsibility as an organization to let players and tournaments know that they will not accept that. If this means that they have to stop holding tournaments in countries where this is an issue, then that's what they need to do.

Once again, I do agree the WTA should not allow it, but the WTA knew about this being a possiblity since 2006, they gambled it, and they might end up being the fools, once again.

However, I'm just saying that the tournament has nothing to do with the visas being granted, that's not within their legal jurisdiction.

auntie janie
Oct 19th, 2009, 02:53 PM
If Peer personally did something, which caused just reason for rejecting her Visa, then that would be her fault and her penalty...This has happened for players before, and the WTA has not and cannot step in.

But when it is due to an issue of discrimination and prejudice, we are talking about a whole different game, and the WTA has a responsibility as an organization to let players and tournaments know that they will not accept that. If this means that they have to stop holding tournaments in countries where this is an issue, then that's what they need to do.

Exactly.

auntie janie
Oct 19th, 2009, 02:55 PM
I'm just saying that the tournament has nothing to do with the visas being granted, that's not within their legal jurisdiction.

Everyone knows that. The issue is whether tournaments should ever be held in countries with discriminatory policies. Get out your history books and read up on the international sporting boycott of apartheid-era South Africa.

Or Levy
Oct 19th, 2009, 03:01 PM
The thing is, there must be a policy in place.

Indonesia views against Israel were known for years now, they withdrew from Fed cup agaisnt Israel 3 years ago, there are no diplomatic relationship. That should have been handled months ago, not weeks before the tournament.

A condition to the tournament (which is brand new) should have been a comittmend that Israeli players would be granted a Visa, or else double the price money and give Shahar the same as the winner, at the very least.

shirgan
Oct 19th, 2009, 03:28 PM
many responses here are extremely hypothetical. The people who have to deal with this are working on it. there is no point in talking about "if this" and "if that". Let's just wait and see.

iceager
Oct 19th, 2009, 04:22 PM
The WTA holds tournaments on the understanding that all players who have earned the right to compete and are willing will be allowed to play. The Dubai fiasco damaged the credibility of the WTA because it failed to enforce this. So the test for the WTA is whether it can uphold this principle in Bali.

The WTA of course has no power over the policies of the Indonesian government. But it should make clear that hosting a WTA tournament is a privilege that can be taken away if the basic principles are not respected. If the tournament organizers can't guarantee all rightful competitors a place, then the tournament can't go on.

I hope this will be worked out in time; we should wait and see. I have faith that the Indonesian officials will be reasonable enough and able to find a diplomatic solution (like a special visa). The WTA should draw up contingency plans anyway (e.g. finding another host for the tournament), if only to instil a sense of urgency in the organizers. It may be costly to move the tournament in the worst-case scenario, but the damage to the tour's credibility this time around if Pe'er is not allowed to compete will be even costlier.

rockstar
Oct 19th, 2009, 04:42 PM
The WTA holds tournaments on the understanding that all players who have earned the right to compete and are willing will be allowed to play. The Dubai fiasco damaged the credibility of the WTA because it failed to enforce this. So the test for the WTA is whether it can uphold this principle in Bali.

The WTA of course has no power over the policies of the Indonesian government. But it should make clear that hosting a WTA tournament is a privilege that can be taken away if the basic principles are not respected. If the tournament organizers can't guarantee all rightful competitors a place, then the tournament can't go on.

I hope this will be worked out in time; we should wait and see. I have faith that the Indonesian officials will be reasonable enough and able to find a diplomatic solution (like a special visa). The WTA should draw up contingency plans anyway (e.g. finding another host for the tournament), if only to instil a sense of urgency in the organizers. It may be costly to move the tournament in the worst-case scenario, but the damage to the tour's credibility this time around if Pe'er is not allowed to compete will be even costlier.

contingency plan :spit:
it's not gonna be the greatest disaster if an insignificant tournament like bali does allow one play to enter, even if the entire tournament gets cancelled.

and no one will be willing to get ready tickets sales, stadium etc in the event an event somewhere else gets cancelled to be used as backup

HRHoliviasmith
Oct 19th, 2009, 04:44 PM
they wouldn't dare not issue her one.

SAISAI-GOAT
Oct 19th, 2009, 04:51 PM
no way that the entire tournament will be cancel :rolleyes:

LeonHart
Oct 19th, 2009, 06:13 PM
Indonesia...


Get it Together!!!!!11!!1!! :rolleyes:

*JR*
Oct 19th, 2009, 06:31 PM
Venus was not forced to speak up, she's an eloquent, and intelligent woman who has always stood her ground - If she does or does not want to speak on any topic, she will let you know.
Neither she (nor Serena, who played Charleston) "spoke up" much about the Confederate battle flag atop the SC state Capitol in 2002 (when it was a major issue in the Governors Race there). Who did? Chanda Rubin, who's never been shown that much love by blacks here, almost like she was just used by white W/S "haters" as a vehicle to say that they're not racists. :shrug:

Randy H
Oct 19th, 2009, 06:42 PM
Neither she (nor Serena, who played Charleston) "spoke up" much about the Confederate battle flag atop the SC state Capitol in 2002 (when it was a major issue in the Governors Race there). Who did? Chanda Rubin, who's never been shown that much love by blacks here, almost like she was just used by white W/S "haters" as a vehicle to say that they're not racists. :shrug:

Like I said - If she does, or does not want to speak on a topic, she won't be forced by anyone to do so :p Venus has spoken on a lot of issues, and there have been other cases where she has decided not to, for whatever the reason may be...That's her prerogative.

And I love Chanda ;)

youizahoe
Oct 19th, 2009, 07:07 PM
Everyone knows that. The issue is whether tournaments should ever be held in countries with discriminatory policies. Get out your history books and read up on the international sporting boycott of apartheid-era South Africa.

Go ask the WTA, they know this could have been an issue, and they know it since 2006 that Indonesia and Israel have issues going on, yet they didn't seem to realise that.

Also, I don't care about history, there's a reason why it's history, the past should stay wherever it is.

young_gunner913
Oct 19th, 2009, 08:12 PM
Foreign policy, it's not the tournament's fault if she doesn't get accepted, time to move on.

are you fucking kidding me? if a tournament wouldnt allow serena to play somewhere based off her ethnicity or nationality, you would be flipping the fuck out. take your foreign policy bullshit elsewhere.

mckyle.
Oct 19th, 2009, 08:51 PM
Why does the WTA have a desire to put tournaments in countries that are stuck in the 14th century? Jesus H. Christ.

hankqq
Oct 19th, 2009, 09:01 PM
WTA has to take a stance on this :shrug: Either everyone is allowed to play an event, or the event should not be held :shrug: Hopefully Shahar will get her visa :)

I'm sure there are many other countries that would love to host this event in the future.

Matt01
Oct 19th, 2009, 09:23 PM
Why does the WTA have a desire to put tournaments in countries that are stuck in the 14th century? Jesus H. Christ.


Answer: $$$

BTW, this tournament should be canceled even if Shahar does get her VISA :p

Mynarco
Oct 19th, 2009, 09:24 PM
Hey, why don't just move the whole thing to Hong Kong :p

moby
Oct 19th, 2009, 09:41 PM
Is this visa thing unidirectional? i.e. do travellers/players from Indonesia have trouble playing in Israel (assuming the existence of tournaments they would want to play in there)?

Anyway, I wouldn't be too quick to judge. There's still time for the visa to come.

fouc
Oct 19th, 2009, 10:12 PM
There is still time and visa will surely come (I hope)

The Jabberwock
Oct 19th, 2009, 10:14 PM
I really hope she will get the visa.

Meanwhile, I wanted to read the latest news about the tournament from the official site http://www.commbanktennis.com/ .
Surprise, surprise! In the last 4 articles that were published in the last week about all the players that will come to Bali, all the players that wish to come to Bali, all the players that dream about Bali and all the players that have some friend in Bali, Shahar Peer was not mentioned even a single time! :confused:

What a luck that the tournaments are listed on the site with their champions. It forced them to actually WRITE her name :tape::help::tape:

young_gunner913
Oct 19th, 2009, 10:28 PM
Is this visa thing unidirectional? i.e. do travellers/players from Indonesia have trouble playing in Israel (assuming the existence of tournaments they would want to play in there)?

Anyway, I wouldn't be too quick to judge. There's still time for the visa to come.

In 2006, Israel hosted a Fed Cup tie against Indonesia and the team would not make the trip, so they forfieted the tie. It doesnt seem like Israel would have a problem granting them visa, but it's obvious that Indonesia has no interest playing in Israel.

moby
Oct 19th, 2009, 10:31 PM
In 2006, Israel hosted a Fed Cup tie against Indonesia and the team would not make the trip, so they forfieted the tie. It doesnt seem like Israel would have a problem granting them visa, but it's obvious that Indonesia has no interest playing in Israel.In that case, this does not bode well for Bali. :tape: On the other hand, Bali is still a commercial tournament, with sponsors etc. We shall see.

Donny
Oct 19th, 2009, 10:38 PM
Okay, sure. So you think it would have been fine for the WTA to hold tournaments in South Africa during apartheid? Even though Serena and Venus would have been denied visas because of South Africa's policies? Because after all, apartheid was "foreign policy, not the tournament's fault". :rolleyes:

People need to use their brains.

Ironic. South African athletes were prohibited from playing in the Olympics for a time.

It's no different that what Indonesia is doing here, in fact- barring Israeli athletes for the actions of their nation.

KournikovaFan91
Oct 19th, 2009, 10:54 PM
Here we go again. :rolleyes:

Since Dubai hasn't been removed from next year calendar I am sure this won't be cancelled and it shouldn't be anyway imo.

If she can't get somewhere that is her issue not the WTA's. Her nationality is her problem.

Rezai's Iranain father was denied entry to the USA I believe and I don't see an issue in GM.

Or Levy
Oct 19th, 2009, 11:24 PM
Rezai father's entrence was denied, not Rezai's herself. Big difference.

Duabai wasn't canceled for next year because they gave Andy Ram the Visa, and promised (and there is a great deal of money involved) it wouldn't happen next year. Not that it is impossible that it would, but we shall wait and see.

MBM
Oct 19th, 2009, 11:26 PM
my feeling from what people said during dubai was that the only reason they chose not to boycott the event was that it was days (if not A day) from the tournament starting and they would be letting down sponsors and fans. I'm sure the players would have no problems boycotting this event given a few a week's notice!

I'll give Indonesia the benefit of the doubt and say that I think she will get her visa. The WTA has time to push the Indonesian Visa peeps. After Dubai, I am almost certain that no tournament will be allowed to take place if a player is not allowed to play.

All we can do now is speculate, but I can't imagine that there will be any problems...

AnnaK_4ever
Oct 19th, 2009, 11:26 PM
If this leads to abolishing the whole thing I'm all for not giving a visa to Peer. Oh, and Shahar should sue WTA Tour and that stupid Alaster or whatever her name is.

Volcana
Oct 19th, 2009, 11:30 PM
This is very lax of the WTA. After going through this once, would they not tell the tounaments to get written assurances from the govenments, and move the tournaments if those written assurances were not forthcoming. Foreign policy is what it is. The Indonesian governement is not compelled to grant Israelis visas. But how on earth can the WTA not have dealt with this long ago?

MBM
Oct 19th, 2009, 11:32 PM
This is very lax of the WTA. After going through this once, would they not tell the tounaments to get written assurances from the govenments, and move the tournaments if those written assurances were not forthcoming. Foreign policy is what it is. The Indonesian governement is not compelled to grant Israelis visas. But how on earth can the WTA not have dealt with this long ago?

For the drama! It's what the WTA is built upon.... on and off the court!! ;)

LeonHart
Oct 19th, 2009, 11:33 PM
Here we go again. :rolleyes:

Since Dubai hasn't been removed from next year calendar I am sure this won't be cancelled and it shouldn't be anyway imo.

If she can't get somewhere that is her issue not the WTA's. Her nationality is her problem.

Rezai's Iranain father was denied entry to the USA I believe and I don't see an issue in GM.

Does Rezai's father play for the WTA? :hearts:

Randy H
Oct 19th, 2009, 11:43 PM
Here we go again. :rolleyes:

Since Dubai hasn't been removed from next year calendar I am sure this won't be cancelled and it shouldn't be anyway imo.

If she can't get somewhere that is her issue not the WTA's. Her nationality is her problem.

Rezai's Iranain father was denied entry to the USA I believe and I don't see an issue in GM.

The issue is the WTA's. The WTA is the group who made the agreement to hold this tournament at this site, under the belief that all players who qualify will be allowed to play there. If the government cannot provide Visa's to law abiding athletes like Peer, then the tournament should not be telling the WTA that they will, and the WTA should in future, stop holding tournaments in these cities to prevent this kind of scenario from happening. Players who have not broken any rules, are all supposed to be able to play any tournament, regardless of their nationality. Anything less is discriminatory. How on earth is that Peer's fault? She didn't choose the location of this tournament, so why should she be penalized?

And comparing Rezai's father, who by all accounts has a history of violent behaviour, to Shahar Peer, is an absolute joke in itself :rolleyes:

KournikovaFan91
Oct 19th, 2009, 11:43 PM
The point is that Iranain players would potentially be treated in a similar manner to Rezai's father.

Like governments should change foreign policies for tennis players :rolleyes:

Blame the WTA if you wish, but she shouldn't be given a visa if it violates the country's foregin policy.


Peer associates herself with violent behaviour, she is a member of the Israeli military, even though she is no longer obliged to be :o

Randy H
Oct 19th, 2009, 11:47 PM
This is very lax of the WTA. After going through this once, would they not tell the tounaments to get written assurances from the govenments, and move the tournaments if those written assurances were not forthcoming. Foreign policy is what it is. The Indonesian governement is not compelled to grant Israelis visas. But how on earth can the WTA not have dealt with this long ago?

Amazing how everyday fans can figure out these concepts, yet not the people who are in charge of running the show...

Larry Scott :silly: :smash: :wavey:
Stacey Allaster :tape:

Randy H
Oct 19th, 2009, 11:52 PM
The point is that Iranain players would potentially be treated in a similar manner to Rezai's father.

Like governments should change foreign policies for tennis players :rolleyes:

Blame the WTA if you wish, but she shouldn't be given a visa if it violates the country's foregin policy.


Peer associates herself with violent behaviour, she is a member of the Israeli military, even though she is no longer obliged to be :o

Perhaps you missed the rest of this thread, but that is exactly what everyone is doing - Blaming the WTA.

No one here is blaming the Government. If the Indonesian Government has rules that prevent any Israeli from receiving a Visa under all circumstances, then that is their choice. But if that is the case, then the WTA should not be hosting tournaments here where they are supposed to provide equal opportunity for their players to compete. If they cannot ensure that environment for their players, then they need to face up to that.

young_gunner913
Oct 19th, 2009, 11:54 PM
The point is that Iranain players would potentially be treated in a similar manner to Rezai's father.

that's just speculation. has yet to happen to a player and since Rezai's father has nothing to do with the WTA, it doesnt relate to this topic at all.

Like governments should change foreign policies for tennis players :rolleyes:

Blame the WTA if you wish, but she shouldn't be given a visa if it violates the country's foregin policy.

if they country wants to hold a tournamnet, they HAVE to adhire to the WTA's rules. if a player qualies for a tournament, then she is allowed to play. and if that country's foregin policy wont issue visa's because of ignorant reasons, then that country should be banned from holding a tournament.

Peer associates herself with violent behaviour, she is a member of the Israeli military.

and last but not least, all israeli born citizens serve in the military for a mandatory 2 year session. do some research before you start pulling shit out your ass.

KournikovaFan91
Oct 19th, 2009, 11:59 PM
Yes and her time is up, that was my point.
I know military service is compulsory.
Not every Israeli is a member of the army forever.

Their foregin policy isn't ignorant it is protecting Muslims in a way the foregin policies of certain states towards South Africa was to show their disgust at the treatment of black people.

austennis
Oct 20th, 2009, 12:29 AM
Just because you may be an ambassador to your country (and not all people feel they are surely), doesn't mean you agree with everything done in your country. I am proud to be a Canadian citizen, does that mean that I agree with everything my Government chooses to do? Do you agree with everything your Government does? Why should you, I, or anyone else be penalized for that, when we are merely trying to compete under fair circumstances in the profession we have? I'm shocked that this is even an issue of debate...

Hey i agree with you that in an ideal world this shouldnt be an issue, and that Shahar and any player who wishes to anywhere in the world should be free to do so... However this is not a perfect world and to assume that politics and sport can ever be seperated is unrealistic. Therefore, if the Indonesian or any government wishes to take a stand against a player for the actions/ideologies of their country or government there is very little anyone can do to stop it.

Also, i dont think its possible for the WTA to only hold tournaments in countries that it believes reflect the values of the organisation, because the organisation is just that a global body of people who represent dozens if not hundreds of countries. Many of which have contrasting views. In addition to this Bali has long been home to a succsesful tournament which is loved by many players, and Indonesia is a fascinating country for anyone to visit.

I wonder whether this same debate would rage if Cara Black was denied a visa because of the behaviour of Mugabe and the Zimbabwean government? Or is this issue more about Israel vs Islamic states?

young_gunner913
Oct 20th, 2009, 12:49 AM
Their foregin policy isn't ignorant it is protecting Muslims in a way the foregin policies of certain states towards South Africa was to show their disgust at the treatment of black people.

so because other countries have foregin policies that are discriminatory, that makes it right?

MBM
Oct 20th, 2009, 12:51 AM
so because other countries have foregin policies that are discriminatory, that makes it right?

I'm not sure that kournikovafan stated his/her opinion over whether it is right, just that they are justified in some way of having their policies

mure
Oct 20th, 2009, 12:53 AM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_0tkTIeDkTAg/SZsEojP1sNI/AAAAAAAAA8g/GdI6Px5LpBM/s320/ShaharPeer.jpg

MBM
Oct 20th, 2009, 12:54 AM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_0tkTIeDkTAg/SZsEojP1sNI/AAAAAAAAA8g/GdI6Px5LpBM/s320/ShaharPeer.jpg

she looks a little chubby there, dont ya think!?

mure
Oct 20th, 2009, 12:55 AM
"As a 19-year-old, Pe'er joined the Israeli military, as military service is mandatory in Israel, where she excelled in rifle marksmanship during her elementary combat training.[4] When not abroad participating in tennis tournaments, she spends her mornings working as an administrative secretary for the Israeli military, and her afternoons practicing tennis."


She's still a member of Israeli army

KournikovaFan91
Oct 20th, 2009, 12:56 AM
So some people don't believe that countries should have severed ties with South Africa???
Maybe if Shahar was a little more neutral in her political beliefs I would have more sympathy for her.

She is a member of an army that commits war crimes, should she allowed play WTA tennis is the real question :o

Not all Israelis are in favour of their military killing people
EaSjoiGHOZk

moby
Oct 20th, 2009, 01:03 AM
Hey i agree with you that in an ideal world this shouldnt be an issue, and that Shahar and any player who wishes to anywhere in the world should be free to do so... However this is not a perfect world and to assume that politics and sport can ever be seperated is unrealistic. Therefore, if the Indonesian or any government wishes to take a stand against a player for the actions/ideologies of their country or government there is very little anyone can do to stop it.

Also, i dont think its possible for the WTA to only hold tournaments in countries that it believes reflect the values of the organisation, because the organisation is just that a global body of people who represent dozens if not hundreds of countries. Many of which have contrasting views. In addition to this Bali has long been home to a succsesful tournament which is loved by many players, and Indonesia is a fascinating country for anyone to visit.Nice post. But I think one of the points of contention here is that the WTA roadmap has made certain tournaments compulsory for players, e.g. Dubai . It makes no sense if they were not allowed to participate in these compulsory tournaments. Similarly for the season-ending championships, MM or otherwise.So some people don't believe that countries should have severed ties with South Africa???
Maybe if Shahar was a little more neutral in her political beliefs I would have more sympathy for her.

She is a member of an army that commits war crimes, should she allowed play WTA tennis is the real question :o

Not all Israelis are in favour of their military killing people I don't believe Shahar had any choice being in military service, so if you're using that as evidence for her not being neutral in her political beliefs, you'll have to work a little harder. Military service is mandatory for all Israelis.

Or Levy
Oct 20th, 2009, 01:05 AM
Shahar has completed her militery service a year and a half ago, she's no longer a soldior.

And Kornikovafan, you're clueless. Service in the army tells very little as to what Shahar political opinion are, not that it matters. I'd explain, but it would clearly go over your head.

KournikovaFan91
Oct 20th, 2009, 01:06 AM
I don't believe Shahar had any choice being in military service, so if you're using that as evidence for her not being neutral in her political beliefs, you'll have to work a little harder. Military service is mandatory for all Israelis.

Yes but she chose to remain in the military after her compulsory military service ended. Read Mure's post, she works in admin.

And lets not start about how military service is actually a violation of your rights anyway. Being in the military should be a choice not an obligation.

Donny
Oct 20th, 2009, 01:09 AM
Nice post. But I think one of the points of contention here is that the WTA roadmap has made certain tournaments compulsory for players, e.g. Doha. It makes no sense if they were not allowed to participate in these compulsory tournaments. Similarly for the season-ending championships, MM or otherwise.I don't believe Shahar had any choice being in military service, so if you're using that as evidence for her not being neutral in her political beliefs, you'll have to work a little harder. Military service is mandatory for all Israelis.

No it isn't.

moby
Oct 20th, 2009, 01:09 AM
Yes but she chose to remain in the military after her compulsory military service ended. Read Mure's post, she works in admin.Where does it say that? What I got from that was that her vocation in the military was administrative in nature. i.e. she was doing clerical work to fulfil her military service requirement.
No it isn't.Yes, you're right. I just looked it up. Thanks.

However, it's mandatory for Shahar, I believe. And that's what matters in this context.

Alizé Molik
Oct 20th, 2009, 01:12 AM
So because Shachar loves her country she's a bad person and doesn't get to play tennis? I'm confused with how that makes sense. Sure you can disagree with the country but don't take it out on one woman who doesn't decide the policy, and wasn't alive when the state of israel was created. Politics has no place in tennis. It just amuses me how because it's cool to hate whatever america supports everyone can say whatever they like about israelis. Once again the Jewish people lose out.

There is no way the tournament will go ahead without Shachar. The commonwealth bank is the major sponsor and they won't be involved with anything that's antisemetic.

KournikovaFan91
Oct 20th, 2009, 01:14 AM
She is 22. She began at 19. Therefore her service ended last year. Women only do 2 years. So I assume she no longer engages in the admin work.

Bar Refaeli avoided it for whatever reason, its not difficult to do if you wish to avoid it to further your career. All Peer had to do was get married and quickly divorced.

Or Levy
Oct 20th, 2009, 01:14 AM
No it isn't.

It isn't mandatory for Orthodox Jews, I won't bore you with the details. Regardless, it was mandatory for Shahar. Anyway, as I said, Shahar is no longer an soldior, she wouldn't have tried to get to Dubai last year if she was.

Or Levy
Oct 20th, 2009, 01:16 AM
She is 22. She began at 19. Therefore her service ended last year. Women only do 2 years.

Bar Refaeli avoided it for whatever reason, its not difficult to do if you wish to avoid it to further your career.

Bar got married (fake marriage) days before the day she was due to enlist. She did it so she can be a model in NY and make money.
Married women are exempt from an army service.

KournikovaFan91
Oct 20th, 2009, 01:19 AM
I wonder why Peer didn't do that, it would have been better for her tennis.

MBM
Oct 20th, 2009, 01:19 AM
Holy f*ckballs, this thread just went overboard!

#1 Has Shahar fulfilled the requirements to participate in Bali? YES!
#2 Is it fair for Shahar to be denied the right to participate? NO! (if you ask why...check #1 again!)

KournikovaFan91
Oct 20th, 2009, 01:21 AM
It probably isn't fair but then the WTA shouldn't have scheduled the tournament there, like once again people seem to expect Indonesia to change to suit Peer :rolleyes:

MBM
Oct 20th, 2009, 01:23 AM
It probably isn't fair but then the WTA shouldn't have scheduled the tournament there, like once again people seem to expect Indonesia to change to suit Peer :rolleyes:

UAE changed to suit Ram

KournikovaFan91
Oct 20th, 2009, 01:24 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if something to do with Uruguay was arranged there and not specified publically.

mure
Oct 20th, 2009, 01:26 AM
She might be a Mossad secret agent as well.She seems to be quite skilled with guns.Indonesia is right to take its precautions.

Alizé Molik
Oct 20th, 2009, 01:27 AM
It probably isn't fair but then the WTA shouldn't have scheduled the tournament there, like once again people seem to expect Indonesia to change to suit Peer :rolleyes:

No, people expect indonesia to fulfil the obligations they made when the tournament was sheduled to be held in Bali.

This is all speculation at this point, but I'm sure there was something put into that contract they would have signed that said the players have to be guarenteed the right to play. How many lawyers would the WTA have writing their contracts?! Enough surely to figure out something like that.

KournikovaFan91
Oct 20th, 2009, 01:32 AM
I also don't believe the government arranged the tournament either, its a private event, not a state run event.

Alizé Molik
Oct 20th, 2009, 01:44 AM
I also don't believe the government arranged the tournament either, its a private event, not a state run event.

things don't just happen. They would have to get the ok from some sort of local government or council before they could hold the event?

KournikovaFan91
Oct 20th, 2009, 01:48 AM
You really think that the local council scrutinises the WTA rule book, and thinks, ohh well on the off chance an Israeli might qualify we really shouldn't host this :rolleyes:

MBM
Oct 20th, 2009, 01:53 AM
You really think that the local council scrutinises the WTA rule book, and thinks, ohh well on the off chance an Israeli might qualify we really shouldn't host this :rolleyes:

oh dear... :rolleyes:

Dubai was fined $300,000 for denying Peer, so they clearly broke some sort of rule! And that was the tournament, not the government...

So there must be a rule that says that they can deny NO-ONE the right to participation

KournikovaFan91
Oct 20th, 2009, 01:59 AM
Yes but most tournaments are hardly thinking, ohh well IF an Israeli enters then they can't so we won't bother hosting.

Also that is a major IF, like they aren't a powerhouse and have one proper player. It is easy to see why tournaments would take the risk anyway.

Also I doubt Israel even crosses the mind of the tournament organisers.

Also the WTA only fined Dubai, notice they didn't remove it from the calendar, and I bet Peer will be in Memphis next year or having a rest. The Dubai thing won't be an issue again.

MBM
Oct 20th, 2009, 02:08 AM
Yes but most tournaments are hardly thinking, ohh well IF an Israeli enters then they can't so we won't bother hosting.

Also that is a major IF, like they aren't a powerhouse and have one proper player. It is easy to see why tournaments would take the risk anyway.

Also I doubt Israel even crosses the mind of the tournament organisers.

Also the WTA only fined Dubai, notice they didn't remove it from the calendar, and I bet Peer will be in Memphis next year or having a rest. The Dubai thing won't be an issue again.

Dubai also posted a $2million performance guarantee ensuring that nothing like this will ever happen again (whatever THAT means). So I guess that is why the event was NOT cancelled.

And I'm pretty sure the WTA is a sophisticated enough organisation to not host an event where they know certain players will be denied a visa... hence the fine to Dubai for not upholding such a guarantee.

And I don't think that tournaments overlook Israeli players and instead take a "gamble" by going ahead with the hope that no Israeli players enter as that is ludicrous! I am pretty sure the WTA would ask for a guarantee that all players who wish to participate will be allowed to, and if not, they will receive a nice little fine (of $300,000 apparently)

Golovinjured.
Oct 20th, 2009, 03:21 AM
Hopefully she gets a visa soon, it's probably in the mail. :hearts:


Btw, to those who say 'oh no, Indonesia will give her one, they have to after what happened with Dubai'. Well... I wouldn't count on it. As one of Indonesia's close neighbours, I've learnt they don't care what's morally right to (majority of) the rest of the world or being politically correct in regards to race, religion or nationality. They're there to look after themselves, and do what suits and pleases them. Any uproar regarding Shahar will go straight over their heads. They won't care at all.

hdfb
Oct 20th, 2009, 03:23 AM
I agree that the tournament should be cancelled if they don`t give visa to Shahar.
I hope the WTA has another place to replace Bali in this case.

Australia :inlove:

Wiggly
Oct 20th, 2009, 03:44 AM
Australia :inlove:

Well, Dubai can't host it. :haha:

duhcity
Oct 20th, 2009, 03:50 AM
This is a little different, no? The Dubai tournament is directed by someone who has power over giving Visas. As far as I know, Bali is not government run and they can only apply for a Visa for Shahar.

young_gunner913
Oct 20th, 2009, 04:52 AM
Yes but most tournaments are hardly thinking, ohh well IF an Israeli enters then they can't so we won't bother hosting.

Also that is a major IF, like they aren't a powerhouse and have one proper player. It is easy to see why tournaments would take the risk anyway.

Also I doubt Israel even crosses the mind of the tournament organisers.

Also the WTA only fined Dubai, notice they didn't remove it from the calendar, and I bet Peer will be in Memphis next year or having a rest. The Dubai thing won't be an issue again.

:spit: are you kidding me? everytime you respond you look more and more like a dipshit. just shut the fuck up while youre ahead kid.

Alizé Molik
Oct 20th, 2009, 04:56 AM
:spit: are you kidding me? everytime you respond you look more and more like a dipshit. just shut the fuck up while youre ahead kid.

he skated past that about 3 pages ago.

and yes I think the Dubai tournament had some links to someone connected to governement. Also it's not as though this tournament has the kind of financial backing that dubai has to put up vast amounts of money to hush the wta up.

Tanja8
Oct 20th, 2009, 07:46 AM
Ironic. South African athletes were prohibited from playing in the Olympics for a time.

It's no different that what Indonesia is doing here, in fact- barring Israeli athletes for the actions of their nation.
South Africa was under official ban (Olympic Committee, I`m not sure about UN)
It was the same with Yugoslavia which was boycotted by UNO.
There`s no official ban for Israel. It doesn`t matter if you and me think there should be one. (I think we shouldn`t mix sport and politics at all) Indonesia has no right to deny Shahar visa. Ok, they can deny it ... but they should lose the tournament immediately then.

The Jabberwock
Oct 20th, 2009, 09:30 AM
Holy f*ckballs, this thread just went overboard!

#1 Has Shahar fulfilled the requirements to participate in Bali? YES!
#2 Is it fair for Shahar to be denied the right to participate? NO! (if you ask why...check #1 again!)

:worship:

She might be a Mossad secret agent as well.She seems to be quite skilled with guns.Indonesia is right to take its precautions.

:fiery: I'm afraid you just revealed her cover. Now she will need to find an alternate one. Maybe as an international ballet dancer...

networthy
Oct 20th, 2009, 09:38 AM
What would be so awesome is if Peer plays--and wins the whole thing!

cosmoose
Oct 20th, 2009, 09:59 AM
Everyone is dancing around the subject but afraid to say it?

Indonesians are racist.

If Indonesia deny visa for a jew, only because she is a jew, then it is racism.
Doesn't matter if they hide behind the silly argument that it is their foreign policy.
If so, then Indonesia has a racist foreign policy.
Politicians that wrote such law are racist.
And the people that voted for those politicians support racism.

iceager
Oct 20th, 2009, 10:01 AM
There are a couple of things to understand about the sporting boycott of Apartheid-era South Africa before drawing facile analogies. South Africa was banned from the Olympics and team competitions like rugby and cricket because it refused to field racially integrated teams. Individual South African athletes including tennis players like Johan Kriek continued to compete in international competitions.

After all, banning athletes merely because they represent nations with unsavoury regimes is hardly productive. That is outside the realm of sport. South African teams were banned precisely because the South African regime allowed its racial policy to invade the domain of sport, blocking black or coloured athletes from competing in its national rugby or cricket teams for example.

The issue of a country refusing to grant nationals of certain other countries entry is nothing new, and Indonesia is hardly the worst culprit. But to suggest a comparison with boycotting South Africa is misguided.

Again, it is up to the governments all over the world to decide who to allow into their territories. If that means a sporting event to be held in that country is not able to guarantee the participation of all the athletes that are eligible to participate, then the event simply can't go on as advertised. A few years ago, when the US hosted the inaugural World Baseball Classic, it was discovered that allowing the Cuban team to compete would violate the US's sanctions against Cuba. It would have been ridiculous to hold a tournament advertised as determining the best baseball nation on the planet without Cuba, so the organizers scrambled and figured out a compromise that allowed them to compete and thus averted a monumental disaster. Cuba reached the final.

By the way, it is completely ridiculous to attack Shahar on the basis of her joining the Israeli military. I also completed my two-year mandatory military service for my own country not too long ago, not because I support violence or agree with everything my government does, but because it is my duty according to our laws. In fact, Shahar joining the Israeli military (like Jarkko Nieminen joining the Finnish military) would have been received as a welcome gesture that even a top athlete and celebrity is abiding by the rules like everyone else.

Like Shahar and everyone else who joins the military, I received basic combat training including marksmanship training; I also did well. It's not a big deal; if you have good concentration and coordination (as Shahar no doubt does as an athlete), you'll receive high marks. It's not like they trained Shahar to be a sniper or anything. Like Shahar, I also was put into administrative duty afterwards, working in an office every day like any regular office worker, except in military uniform.

For the record, Shahar completed her two years of military duty and was given official release documents, so whoever is claiming that Shahar is staying on past her required term is misinformed.

Tanja8
Oct 20th, 2009, 10:10 AM
Everyone is dancing around the subject but afraid to say it?

Indonesians are racist.

If Indonesia deny visa for a jew, only because she is a jew, then it is racism.
Doesn't matter if they hide behind the silly argument that it is their foreign policy.
If so, then Indonesia has a racist foreign policy.
Politicians that wrote such law are racist.
And the people that voted for those politicians support racism.
I`m not sure about the word racism in English ... but in my language this is not racism.
Indonesia doesn`t deny Shahar`s visa because she is a Jew but because she is a citizen of a country which violates human rights (at least Indonesians think so).
I don`t think Shahar can do anything to prevent Israel Army bombing Palestina etc. She is a tennis player and she has the right to play any Tournament she qualifies.
I`m on her side in this case. But still - it has nothing to do with racism. This word is being abused on this forum sometimes ...

I see more racism in the statement: Indonesians are racists. Because you generalize acts of their government to all citizens of Indonesia.

Matt01
Oct 20th, 2009, 10:19 AM
God, some people in this thread are so :weirdo:

(Most of them being Kournikova fans :tape:)

iceager
Oct 20th, 2009, 10:30 AM
Everyone is dancing around the subject but afraid to say it?

Indonesians are racist.

If Indonesia deny visa for a jew, only because she is a jew, then it is racism.
Doesn't matter if they hide behind the silly argument that it is their foreign policy.
If so, then Indonesia has a racist foreign policy.
Politicians that wrote such law are racist.
And the people that voted for those politicians support racism.

Don't be too quick to judge. It's true that Indonesia (like most countries, unfortunately) has a problem with racism, mostly against its Chinese and Indian minorities. But the fact that Indonesia does not recognize Israel as a state and denies visas for Israeli nationals does not automatically constitute racism. After all, not all Israelis are Jews and not all Jews are Israelis.

KournikovaFan91
Oct 20th, 2009, 01:28 PM
They wouldn't permit a Christian Israeli to enter, this is an Israel thing not a jew thing.

Why does Israel and Jew suddenly mean the same thing, millions of Jews aren't Israeli.

Miss Amor
Oct 20th, 2009, 02:00 PM
that's just speculation. has yet to happen to a player and since Rezai's father has nothing to do with the WTA, it doesnt relate to this topic at all.



if they country wants to hold a tournamnet, they HAVE to adhire to the WTA's rules. if a player qualies for a tournament, then she is allowed to play. and if that country's foregin policy wont issue visa's because of ignorant reasons, then that country should be banned from holding a tournament.



and last but not least, all israeli born citizens serve in the military for a mandatory 2 year session. do some research before you start pulling shit out your ass.

so because other countries have foregin policies that are discriminatory, that makes it right?

Owned :bowdown:

Alizé Molik
Oct 21st, 2009, 01:16 PM
They wouldn't permit a Christian Israeli to enter, this is an Israel thing not a jew thing.

Why does Israel and Jew suddenly mean the same thing, millions of Jews aren't Israeli.

:confused:

ZODIAC
Oct 21st, 2009, 02:09 PM
There is always trouble for Shahar when she travels in South Asia ,remember when she had problems in New Zealand and Australia with some groups and her fans at these events make it worse.I think the fact that she is in the military makes it even worse..

shirgan
Oct 21st, 2009, 02:52 PM
There is always trouble for Shahar when she travels in South Asia ,remember when she had problems in New Zealand and Australia with some groups and her fans at these events make it worse.I think the fact that she is in the military makes it even worse..
she is not in the military

pov
Oct 21st, 2009, 03:53 PM
she is not in the military
Yes. However, like "all" Israelis, she served a 2-year stint. Reportedly, she liked the combat traing and is a accomplished marksman with a rifle.

iceager
Oct 21st, 2009, 05:01 PM
Yes. However, like "all" Israelis, she served a 2-year stint. Reportedly, she liked the combat traing and is a accomplished marksman with a rifle.

You mean like all Israeli women. Men serve three years.

Excuse me for repeating myself, but it's not like they specially trained her as a sniper or anything. Everyone who enters military first gets basic combat training, including marksmanship training. Good for her that she did well in marksmanship, but you really wouldn't expect less from a professional athlete. I got a perfect mark in marksmanship during my basic training in the Korean army, which sounds way more impressive than it really is.

It is generally the media from countries without mandatory military service that are easily impressed with marksmanship records. The US media made a big deal about the fact that the spree-killing D.C. sniper from a few years back was certified an 'expert' in M16 marksmanship while enlisted in the US Army. Um, with enough practice, anyone can get achieve that distinction--it's not rare to see sections composed entirely of soldiers certified 'expert'.

This will be a cultural difference between countries that have mandatory military service and those that don't, but in the former, a top athlete and celebrity completing the military service like everyone else is received favourably by the public. Shahar obviously isn't going to spoil that by complaining about her experience in the military. Saying how much they enjoyed the training and how all of it was a character-building experience and time of self-discovery is the standard PR line used by celebrities who do their compulsory service.

AdeyC
Oct 21st, 2009, 06:19 PM
Yes but most tournaments are hardly thinking, ohh well IF an Israeli enters then they can't so we won't bother hosting.



Funny how they're so quick about denying the visa though - they must have heard about what happened in Dubai and been following the tennis calender.

Wannabeknowitall
Oct 21st, 2009, 06:30 PM
It's an interesting situation for Bali, Shahar, and the WTA.

Bali is a tournament that has gone out of it's way to stay on the tour with this new proposal.
It's gone out of it's way to upgrade.

Even in it's early years, for a smaller tourni, Bali was able to get some higher ranked players to it's court.
In fact, in sone cases the draw was deeper than some Tier IIs (now international primieres tournis I guess).
When Lindsay was there a few years ago she praised Bali for making her as comfortable as possible so I find it a total 180 that they are going the other route to make others including the WTA tour uncomfortable.

At some point though, the WTA should know better.
Their interactions with these kinds of tournis is certainly costing Shahar's development back into the top of the game.
This is something she shouldn't have to deal with.

Ranking points from Dubai and Bali could easily have Shahar in the top 32 and seeded at the Australian which has been her best slam.

You don't hinder any player's development on the tour for the progress of the WTA because in the end it generally hurts one of the biggest women's organization in the process.

For example, you have all these players saying "I Love Dubai" for years.
Have Lindsay and Sharapova in an indoor skiiing complex in the middle of the desert.
Have Venus, Serena, and other players shopping till they drop in the best shops the Middle East has to offer.
Have Kuznetsova and Henin playing tennis on a makeshift court in the desert.

Now that has changed when most people knew their stance against Israelis?
Sorry but it just looks like the WTA sold out for a great investment and they absolutely have to put their foot down.
If these countries are not willing to put their differences aside in a sort of gesture towards the sport in general, there's no chance that they should hold a tourni in their country.

And I feel it should be a two way street.

pov
Oct 21st, 2009, 06:31 PM
You mean like all Israeli women. Men serve three years.

Excuse me for repeating myself, but it's not like they specially trained her as a sniper or anything. Everyone who enters military first gets basic combat training, including marksmanship training. Good for her that she did well in marksmanship, but you really wouldn't expect less from a professional athlete. I got a perfect mark in marksmanship during my basic training in the Korean army, which sounds way more impressive than it really is.

It is generally the media from countries without mandatory military service that are easily impressed with marksmanship records. The US media made a big deal about the fact that the spree-killing D.C. sniper from a few years back was certified an 'expert' in M16 marksmanship while enlisted in the US Army. Um, with enough practice, anyone can get achieve that distinction--it's not rare to see sections composed entirely of soldiers certified 'expert'.

This will be a cultural difference between countries that have mandatory military service and those that don't, but in the former, a top athlete and celebrity completing the military service like everyone else is received favourably by the public. Shahar obviously isn't going to spoil that by complaining about her experience in the military. Saying how much they enjoyed the training and how all of it was a character-building experience and time of self-discovery is the standard PR line used by celebrities who do their compulsory service.

Real marksmanship is not easy. I know that from experience. Saying anyone can do it with enough training is akin to saying that anyone can be a top-10 tennis player with enough training. I don't know what levels they cover in Korea but it appears that the IDF does give different levels to those assigned combat training post basic training.

joyforall
Oct 21st, 2009, 06:49 PM
wowzieee..

this thread is so ON FIRE!

woohoo! (sorry for junking :D can't help but post something)

charmedRic
Oct 21st, 2009, 11:18 PM
The WTA must be secretly pissed Shahar won those two weaaak MM events. :lol:

touche.

charmedRic
Oct 21st, 2009, 11:20 PM
:-( tre' sad.

young_gunner913
Oct 21st, 2009, 11:22 PM
Ranking points from Dubai and Bali could easily have Shahar in the top 32 and seeded at the Australian which has been her best slam.

actually the Australian Open is her worst slam overall in terms of W/L. She made a QF there one time but her record there is 6-4, RG 8-4, Wimby 8-5, and the US Open is her best slam with an 11-5 record there and a QF appearence.

KournikovaFan91
Oct 21st, 2009, 11:30 PM
Funny how they're so quick about denying the visa though - they must have heard about what happened in Dubai and been following the tennis calender.

And were praying she wouldn't win anything probably.

iceager
Oct 22nd, 2009, 04:04 AM
Yes. However, like "all" Israelis, she served a 2-year stint. Reportedly, she liked the combat traing and is a accomplished marksman with a rifle.

Real marksmanship is not easy. I know that from experience. Saying anyone can do it with enough training is akin to saying that anyone can be a top-10 tennis player with enough training. I don't know what levels they cover in Korea but it appears that the IDF does give different levels to those assigned combat training post basic training.

If I remember correctly, one has to hit at least 38 targets out of 40 to qualify as an expert with the M16 in the US Army. That might not be 'real marksmanship', but that's the standard that the US Army maintains. I am speaking from experience as well, and I've gone out to the range with US soldiers for their marksmanship qualification. Most soldiers qualify at least as 'sharpshooter' (33+), and higher-ranked ones are likely to be 'expert', so it's a whole lot easier than becoming a top-10 tennis player.

Believe me, with enough time and bullets to train with, anyone who doesn't have concentration or coordination difficulties can become an 'expert'.

Wannabeknowitall
Oct 22nd, 2009, 04:14 AM
And were praying she wouldn't win anything probably.

And they would have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for those meddleing fall asian tournis.
(in the voice of a Villian off of Scooby Doo)

Milito22
Oct 22nd, 2009, 04:19 AM
She might be a Mossad secret agent as well.She seems to be quite skilled with guns.Indonesia is right to take its precautions.

mossad :scared:

Apoleb
Oct 22nd, 2009, 04:19 AM
There are a couple of things to understand about the sporting boycott of Apartheid-era South Africa before drawing facile analogies. South Africa was banned from the Olympics and team competitions like rugby and cricket because it refused to field racially integrated teams. Individual South African athletes including tennis players like Johan Kriek continued to compete in international competitions.

After all, banning athletes merely because they represent nations with unsavoury regimes is hardly productive. That is outside the realm of sport. South African teams were banned precisely because the South African regime allowed its racial policy to invade the domain of sport, blocking black or coloured athletes from competing in its national rugby or cricket teams for example.

The issue of a country refusing to grant nationals of certain other countries entry is nothing new, and Indonesia is hardly the worst culprit. But to suggest a comparison with boycotting South Africa is misguided.

Again, it is up to the governments all over the world to decide who to allow into their territories. If that means a sporting event to be held in that country is not able to guarantee the participation of all the athletes that are eligible to participate, then the event simply can't go on as advertised. A few years ago, when the US hosted the inaugural World Baseball Classic, it was discovered that allowing the Cuban team to compete would violate the US's sanctions against Cuba. It would have been ridiculous to hold a tournament advertised as determining the best baseball nation on the planet without Cuba, so the organizers scrambled and figured out a compromise that allowed them to compete and thus averted a monumental disaster. Cuba reached the final.

By the way, it is completely ridiculous to attack Shahar on the basis of her joining the Israeli military. I also completed my two-year mandatory military service for my own country not too long ago, not because I support violence or agree with everything my government does, but because it is my duty according to our laws. In fact, Shahar joining the Israeli military (like Jarkko Nieminen joining the Finnish military) would have been received as a welcome gesture that even a top athlete and celebrity is abiding by the rules like everyone else.

Like Shahar and everyone else who joins the military, I received basic combat training including marksmanship training; I also did well. It's not a big deal; if you have good concentration and coordination (as Shahar no doubt does as an athlete), you'll receive high marks. It's not like they trained Shahar to be a sniper or anything. Like Shahar, I also was put into administrative duty afterwards, working in an office every day like any regular office worker, except in military uniform.

For the record, Shahar completed her two years of military duty and was given official release documents, so whoever is claiming that Shahar is staying on past her required term is misinformed.

Don't be too quick to judge. It's true that Indonesia (like most countries, unfortunately) has a problem with racism, mostly against its Chinese and Indian minorities. But the fact that Indonesia does not recognize Israel as a state and denies visas for Israeli nationals does not automatically constitute racism. After all, not all Israelis are Jews and not all Jews are Israelis.

Two great posts. Refreshing to see reason on this board.

Still, like the Dubai issue, I put most of the blame on the WTA. I do think there are better ways to make political statements than banning individual players from competing, but the WTA should've dealt with earlierand came to a resolution with the organizers. The fact that the same thing already happened in Dubai makes them look even more incompetent.

hellas719
Oct 22nd, 2009, 04:56 AM
We can always move it to Athens :p

Buitenzorg
Oct 22nd, 2009, 05:20 AM
We can always move it to Athens :p

or Sydney Australia is better :p

*JR*
Oct 22nd, 2009, 04:51 PM
Real marksmanship is not easy. I know that from experience. Saying anyone can do it with enough training is akin to saying that anyone can be a top-10 tennis player with enough training. I don't know what levels they cover in Korea but it appears that the IDF does give different levels to those assigned combat training post basic training.
http://sarahpalintruthsquad.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/00sarahnra2.jpg

LeonHart
Oct 22nd, 2009, 05:22 PM
http://sarahpalintruthsquad.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/00sarahnra2.jpg

Someone just got owned :lol:

pov
Oct 22nd, 2009, 05:27 PM
http://sarahpalintruthsquad.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/00sarahnra2.jpg
lol. Great pic. She looks as if she's on drugs and like she can't quite figure out what she's looking at. What a dufus.

LeonHart
Oct 22nd, 2009, 05:48 PM
lol. Great pic. She looks as if she's on drugs and like she can't quite figure out what she's looking at. What a dufus.

She's sure as hell better at using that thing than you that I'm for sure.

pov
Oct 22nd, 2009, 05:57 PM
She's sure as hell better at using that thing than you that I'm for sure.
:haha: If you say so. Let's see her with it when she doesn't seem so drugged-up and clueless - maybe that will at least support your fawning.

winchester
Oct 22nd, 2009, 06:03 PM
Still not arrived:eek:

mboyle
Oct 22nd, 2009, 06:06 PM
lol. Great pic. She looks as if she's on drugs and like she can't quite figure out what she's looking at. What a dufus.

ZOMG! Don't insult Sexy Sarah! :p She might confuse you for a moose...

LeonHart
Oct 22nd, 2009, 10:39 PM
ZOMG! Don't insult Sexy Sarah! :p She might confuse you for a moose...

pov gets ownedx2. Ouch.

networthy
Oct 24th, 2009, 01:12 AM
Still hasn't arrived?

Pasta-Na
Oct 24th, 2009, 01:25 AM
http://sarahpalintruthsquad.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/00sarahnra2.jpg

her skin :tape:

shirgan
Oct 24th, 2009, 04:30 AM
Still hasn't arrived?
haven't heard anything new...

M.A.S.L.
Oct 24th, 2009, 05:42 PM
If the visa dont arrive, I hope all the players boicot this thing.

Jekyll
Oct 24th, 2009, 07:20 PM
I really doubt they'll deny this visa to shahar..

Or Levy
Oct 24th, 2009, 08:13 PM
As of today, no visa yet. They are hoping it would arrive next week.

And frankly, I don't think it is coming.

Golovinjured.
Oct 25th, 2009, 12:15 AM
They're leaving it a bit late, dontcha think?

shirgan
Oct 26th, 2009, 04:56 AM
according to local Israeli press she is excpected to fly to Singapore in a couple of days to pick up her visa for Indonesia, and then probably head to Bali. but it's still not confirmed she will in fact receive the visa.

Volcana
Oct 26th, 2009, 05:20 AM
It's a tennis tournament. And a women's tennis tournament, at that. It's not losing the Olympics. For a politician, this is a layup. They may well deny her the visa, and pretend it was driven by principle.

If Balinese politicians are anything like American politicians, that's a real possibility.

In The Zone
Oct 26th, 2009, 05:33 AM
If Shahar doesn't get her visa, the tournament should be cancelled.

P.S., sidenote. I also love how everyone got on Venus' and the women's case for having the Dubai tournament earlier this year but yet, the men's event was played despite one of the male Israeli players being denied a visa. :rolleyes: Just love to hate!

Rollo
Oct 26th, 2009, 02:39 PM
Posted by Volcana
It's a tennis tournament (http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=394076&page=10#). And a women's tennishttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/2.gif (http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=394076&page=10#) tournament, at that. It's not losing the Olympics. For a politician, this is a layup. They may well deny her the visa, and pretend it was driven by principle.

If Balinese politicians are anything like American politicians, that's a real possibility.


I'd wager you are spot on about politicians Volcana, but Balinese politicians doubtless have little say in the matter. In religion and outlook the Balinese are different from the Javanese who dominate Indonesian politics. Jakarta decides who does or doesn't get visas, not Bali.

If it were up to the Balinese they would welcome everyone with open arms.

Here's hoping Shahar gets her visa

Mynarco
Oct 26th, 2009, 02:50 PM
If shahar's visa is denied, all the rest of the players should boycott this tourny

ElusiveChanteuse
Oct 26th, 2009, 02:51 PM
If shahar's visa is denied, all the rest of the players should boycott this tourny

No they won't be that stupid.:p

Mynarco
Oct 26th, 2009, 03:00 PM
No they won't be that stupid.:p

at least every participant should issue a statement criticizing the organizer or something like that.

DragonFlame
Oct 26th, 2009, 03:11 PM
If the visa doesn't arrive and we get the same problem again i blame the tour for not foreseeing this and handling this issue in time. It's such a casesensitive issue that should have surely been prevented after dubai.

pov
Oct 26th, 2009, 04:20 PM
If Shahar doesn't get her visa, the tournament should be cancelled.

P.S., sidenote. I also love how everyone got on Venus' and the women's case for having the Dubai tournament earlier this year but yet, the men's event was played despite one of the male Israeli players being denied a visa.
You're confused about this. The ATP player was given a visa.

young_gunner913
Oct 26th, 2009, 04:50 PM
If shahar's visa is denied, all the rest of the players should boycott this tourny

i thought if she doesnt get her visa then the tournament is going to be canceled?

shirgan
Oct 27th, 2009, 09:07 AM
Shahar's agent says to a local Israeli news outlet today that there's no way Shahar will be excluded from Bali.
He said the Indonesian authorities informed him that her visa request was granted,
He said there are a couple of small procedural issues to sort out, but that the issue is practically resolved and will hopefully reach a conclusion in the next few days.

Golovinjured.
Oct 27th, 2009, 09:27 AM
:worship:


Good to hear. :)

itzhak
Oct 27th, 2009, 12:32 PM
Official: Shahar recieved the OK from Indonesia and she will get the Visa.

Shvedbarilescu
Oct 27th, 2009, 12:41 PM
Official: Shahar recieved the OK from Indonesia and she will get the Visa.

:yeah:

gaja kesari
Oct 27th, 2009, 12:43 PM
Official: Shahar recieved the OK from Indonesia and she will get the Visa.

Great news.

Harvs
Oct 27th, 2009, 01:04 PM
gooooooood

ce
Oct 27th, 2009, 01:08 PM
:yeah:

TS
Oct 27th, 2009, 01:11 PM
Good news :) Time to change the thread title then.

nashi
Oct 27th, 2009, 02:28 PM
Muslim countries :rolleyes:

HRHoliviasmith
Oct 27th, 2009, 05:40 PM
Official: Shahar recieved the OK from Indonesia and she will get the Visa.

great news!

Golindz
Oct 28th, 2009, 02:41 AM
Muslim countries :rolleyes:
Indonesia is not a muslim country ! :rolleyes:

Buitenzorg
Oct 28th, 2009, 02:44 AM
Muslim countries :rolleyes:

Indonesia is not a muslim country ! :rolleyes:

although approx 95% muslim, INDONESIA is NOT a muslim country :p

Buitenzorg
Oct 28th, 2009, 02:46 AM
Greate news for Shahar, Commonwealth International Tournament and BALI ;) :kiss:

Volcana
Oct 28th, 2009, 04:54 AM
although approx 95% muslim, INDONESIA is NOT a muslim country :pThat's like saying the USA is not Christian country. An awful lot of the residents would disagree with you.

Not saying you're wrong, but ....

Donny
Oct 28th, 2009, 05:07 AM
That's like saying the USA is not Christian country. An awful lot of the residents would disagree with you.

Not saying you're wrong, but ....

Pretty sure the poster you're responding to was being sarcastic.

Golindz
Oct 28th, 2009, 05:17 AM
although approx 95% muslim, INDONESIA is NOT a muslim country :p

Sarcastic? We are not a Muslim country. but well obviously indonesia has the largest population of muslims in the world, but the constitution etc is not "islamic". therefore ppl shouldn't call it a "muslim" country...
:p

Buitenzorg
Oct 28th, 2009, 05:22 AM
Sarcastic? We are not a Muslim country. but well obviously indonesia has the largest population of muslims in the world, but the constitution etc is not "islamic". therefore ppl shouldn't call it a "muslim" country...
:p

honestly, I was actually supporting your comment :help::lick::p

Apoleb
Oct 28th, 2009, 05:22 AM
Sarcastic? We are not a Muslim country. but well obviously indonesia has the largest population of muslims in the world, but the constitution etc is not "islamic". therefore ppl shouldn't call it a "muslim" country...
:p

By "Muslim country" it is simply meant that the large majority of the population is Muslim, which is of course true. This is not an irrelevant point to make for the sake of the discussion.

Golindz
Oct 28th, 2009, 05:34 AM
honestly, I was actually supporting your comment :help::lick::p
:awww: i'm so sorry
:wavey:
cape deh ngomong ama yang ga ngerti

pov
Oct 28th, 2009, 05:50 AM
Wiki Wonka states:
Although religious freedom is stipulated in the Indonesian constitution,[117] the government officially recognizes only six religions: Islam, Protestantism, Roman Catholicism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Confucianism.[118] Although it is not an Islamic state, Indonesia is the world's most populous Muslim-majority nation, with almost 86.1% of Indonesians declared Muslim according to the 2000 census.[88] 8.7% of the population is Christian,[119] 3% are Hindu, and 1.8% Buddhist or other. Most Indonesian Hindus are Balinese,[120] and most Buddhists in modern-day Indonesia are ethnic Chinese.[121] Though now minority religions, Hinduism and Buddhism remain defining influences in Indonesian culture. Islam was first adopted by Indonesians in northern Sumatra in the 13th century, through the influence of traders, and became the country's dominant religion by the 16th century.[122] Roman Catholicism was brought to Indonesia by early Portuguese colonialists and missionaries,[123] and the Protestant denominations are largely a result of Dutch Calvinist and Lutheran missionary efforts during the country's colonial period.[124] A large proportion of Indonesians—such as the Javanese abangan, Balinese Hindus, and Dayak Christians—practice a less orthodox, syncretic form of their religion, which draws on local customs and beliefs.

Buitenzorg
Oct 28th, 2009, 06:25 AM
:awww: i'm so sorry
:wavey:
cape deh ngomong ama yang ga ngerti

iya, kalo ngak ngerti yah bikin capek :lol: mendingan ngomong ama yg ngerti aja kaya gue :lick: