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View Full Version : Venus Williams set to overtake Graf in all-time combined GS title list


Sam L
Sep 12th, 2009, 12:16 AM
EDIT: Serena's done it! And I was there for both! :D No. 24 and No. 25. Now it's Venus chasing Graf and a spot in the Top Ten. And Serena looks to overtake Elizabeth Ryan.

And don't tell me this list (or doubles and mixed doubles) doesn't matter. They kept on going about the 62-time Grand Slam champion Margaret Court at the final.

Some record books I've read have excluded doubles wins by Brough and duPont in the WWII years. I thought about this and left it in. It doesn't really change the overall picture, it's more for a discussion around competition during the war years.

1. Court - 62
2. Navratilova - 59
3. King - 39
4. duPont - 37
5. Brough - 35
5. Hart - 35
7. Wills-Moody - 31
8. Ryan - 26
9. S. Williams - 25
10. Graf - 23

---

V. Williams - 20

Havok
Sep 12th, 2009, 12:27 AM
22 of Steffi's 24 total GS titles came from the singles event. It easily trumps anything Serena has done in her career.

spencercarlos
Sep 12th, 2009, 12:29 AM
Amazing feet!

manu
Sep 12th, 2009, 12:31 AM
22 of Steffi's 24 total GS titles came from the singles event. It easily trumps anything Serena has done in her career.
I second that. But great achievement nonetheless by Serena!

Caralenko
Sep 12th, 2009, 12:34 AM
Amazing feet!
Indeed, Serena has extraordinary feet.

http://www.reasonforliberty.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/serena-williams.jpg

Bingain
Sep 12th, 2009, 12:34 AM
22 of Steffi's 24 total GS titles came from the singles event. It easily trumps anything Serena has done in her career.

While I also consider Graf's 22 singles titles a bigger achievement, the title of this thread says COMBINED TITLES. Serena therefore will pass Graf if she wins both USO titles.

MrSerenaWilliams
Sep 12th, 2009, 12:34 AM
22 of Steffi's 24 total GS titles came from the singles event. It easily trumps anything Serena has done in her career.

Obvious statement of the decade, but still an achievement nevertheless and better than anything that any player, Post-Graf has accomplished on the tennis court.

But also, Serena's still going, so there's a lot that she could still achieve before she hangs it all up.

While I also consider Graf's 22 singles titles a bigger achievement, the title of this thread says COMBINED TITLES. Serena therefore will pass Graf if she wins both USO titles.

It would be 7 correct? 4-2-1?

tennislover
Sep 12th, 2009, 12:35 AM
:cool:

Sam L
Sep 12th, 2009, 12:38 AM
22 of Steffi's 24 total GS titles came from the singles event. It easily trumps anything Serena has done in her career.
Historically, tennis has been about singles, doubles and mixed doubles.

The Wimbledon men's doubles and the US women's doubles championships are both older than the Australian singles championships for both men and women.

I think it's extremely naive to just simply rule out doubles as if it's another sport or something irrelevant.

If you're a serious fan of tennis, you shouldn't be saying something like that. And yes, it does matter in GOAT discussions.

Caralenko
Sep 12th, 2009, 12:41 AM
But playing doubles is like playing a completely different game. You cannot expect to do everything you do in singles and win a match in doubles - you have to adapt, this is why so many singles players suffer in doubles.

tennislover
Sep 12th, 2009, 12:43 AM
Historically, tennis has been about singles, doubles and mixed doubles.

The Wimbledon men's doubles and the US women's doubles championships are both older than the Australian singles championships for both men and women.

I think it's extremely naive to just simply rule out doubles as if it's another sport or something irrelevant.

If you're a serious fan of tennis, you shouldn't be saying something like that. And yes, it does matter in GOAT discussions.

true

on the other hand, since 90's unfortunately top players began to neglect the doubles stuff....

Dave.
Sep 12th, 2009, 12:45 AM
22 of Steffi's 24 total GS titles came from the singles event. It easily trumps anything Serena has done in her career.

22 of 23. ;)



I think it's extremely naive to just simply rule out doubles as if it's another sport or something irrelevant.

If you're a serious fan of tennis, you shouldn't be saying something like that. And yes, it does matter in GOAT discussions.

True.



Although, in the same way that doubles matters in GOAT discussions, so do tour titles, rankings history, w-l records etc. It is important not to overlook anything like that. But I'm sure this is just an observation/celebration thread, not a GOAT discussion thing.

Dave.
Sep 12th, 2009, 12:48 AM
true

on the other hand, since 90's unfortunately top players began to neglect the doubles stuff....

And? The only top singles players who began to neglect doubles were the ones who were never any threat in doubles in the first place, so it makes no difference. The top of the doubles game has been as strong as ever this decade.

tennisbear7
Sep 12th, 2009, 12:49 AM
Historically, tennis has been about singles, doubles and mixed doubles.

The Wimbledon men's doubles and the US women's doubles championships are both older than the Australian singles championships for both men and women.

I think it's extremely naive to just simply rule out doubles as if it's another sport or something irrelevant.

If you're a serious fan of tennis, you shouldn't be saying something like that. And yes, it does matter in GOAT discussions.

Consistency also matters in GOAT discussions :shrug:

Serena's huge 20+ GS haul will be the best thing since Graf, Evert, Navratilova and Seles. It's am amazing achievement. Serena will always be up there in talking about the greatest of all time, but she won't get the figures Navratilova did in all forms of the game, and she won't get 22 singles slams, and probably not 18 either.

You should be content with your favourites instead of trying to prove your case at every given juncture.

LightWarrior
Sep 12th, 2009, 12:52 AM
What a stupid irrelevant thread. Singles are singles. Doubles are doubles. Period.

tennislover
Sep 12th, 2009, 12:59 AM
And? The only top singles players who began to neglect doubles were the ones who were never any threat in doubles in the first place, so it makes no difference. The top of the doubles game has been as strong as ever this decade.

and so, while in the 80's John McEnroe & Navratilova topped the doubles rankings, in more recent days Virgina Ruano Pascal & Nenad Zimonjic (with all the respect) were at the top: something different IMHO

MrSerenaWilliams
Sep 12th, 2009, 01:08 AM
Consistency also matters in GOAT discussions :shrug:

Serena's huge 20+ GS haul will be the best thing since Graf, Evert, Navratilova and Seles. It's am amazing achievement. Serena will always be up there in talking about the greatest of all time, but she won't get the figures Navratilova did in all forms of the game, and she won't get 22 singles slams, and probably not 18 either.

You should be content with your favourites instead of trying to prove your case at every given juncture.

Why mention Seles? :shrug:

Her total of 9 majors (objectively) puts her firmly in Serena's rearview mirror. Seles may have a MUCH stronger TOUR record, but when it comes to the majors, Serena, it's safe to say, has left Seles behind (with one more AO title , Serena will have more Open Era Aussie Open titles than any PLAYER).

What a stupid irrelevant thread. Singles are singles. Doubles are doubles. Period.
then why a) read it b) comment on it.

And nowhere in the thread is an attempt to compare Serena's career to Graf's, it's just stating that should Serena win her next 3 matches @ the US Open this year, she will own more total major titles than Graf.

Sam L
Sep 12th, 2009, 01:13 AM
And nowhere in the thread is an attempt to compare Serena's career to Graf's, it's just stating that should Serena win her next 3 matches @ the US Open this year, she will own more total major titles than Graf.

Because facts are hurting some people. But granted, this hasn't happened yet, so I'm going to leave this gracefully until it does happen.

tennislover
Sep 12th, 2009, 01:16 AM
What a stupid irrelevant thread. Singles are singles. Doubles are doubles. Period.

Nope

LightWarrior
Sep 12th, 2009, 01:20 AM
Nope

Oh yes. Just ask Graf and Evert or even Seles. Doubles are just the icing on the cake.

Joana
Sep 12th, 2009, 01:26 AM
Amazing feet!

Indeed. All 5 people aware of this history in the making are thrilled!

fufuqifuqishahah
Sep 12th, 2009, 02:05 AM
What a stupid irrelevant thread. Singles are singles. Doubles are doubles. Period.

you find everything so threatening lol

Apoleb
Sep 12th, 2009, 02:07 AM
Indeed. All 5 people aware of this history in the making are thrilled!

:spit: :bowdown:

Donny
Sep 12th, 2009, 02:11 AM
I love when people find a thread they find irrelevant/unimportant, then actually take the time to post a reply. It reminds me of the kinds of things I did when I was five.

Anyway, I didn't know this Sam, thanks for the info.

moby
Sep 12th, 2009, 02:32 AM
I'm not really sure why this is significant in any way (it merely shows that Serena has a lot more doubles slam titles than Steffi), unless you're suggesting that Serena needs 7 more slam titles to become greater than Elizabeth Ryan.

moby
Sep 12th, 2009, 02:34 AM
I love when people find a thread they find irrelevant/unimportant, then actually take the time to post a reply. It reminds me of the kinds of things I did when I was five.No, the thread is irrelevant, but I think it's somewhat important (and more importantly, fun) to call people out on their stupidity and/or ridiculousness. When I'm in the mood anyway.

Also, it doesn't take that much time.

tennisbear7
Sep 12th, 2009, 02:45 AM
Why mention Seles? :shrug:

Her total of 9 majors (objectively) puts her firmly in Serena's rearview mirror. Seles may have a MUCH stronger TOUR record, but when it comes to the majors, Serena, it's safe to say, has left Seles behind (with one more AO title , Serena will have more Open Era Aussie Open titles than any PLAYER).

See, that's the point. Serena fans trying to convince others about how great she is and how further she is away from Seles, when in fact many tennis fans know that she has more slam titles.

Get a grip. We know how good Serena is. You don't need to prove it to us.

I know how insecure some Serena fans are when it comes down to comparing her to the greats and their consistent greatness as opposed to Serena's 8-weeks-a-year, but I for one will acknowledge that Serena Williams is the greatest player I have ever seen when she is on-song and dialled in.

Donny
Sep 12th, 2009, 02:48 AM
See, that's the point. Serena fans trying to convince others about how great she is and how further she is away from Seles, when in fact many tennis fans know that she has more slam titles.

Get a grip. We know how good Serena is. You don't need to prove it to us.

I know how insecure some Serena fans are when it comes down to comparing her to the greats and their consistent greatness as opposed to Serena's 8-weeks-a-year, but I for one will acknowledge that Serena Williams is the greatest player I have ever seen when she is on-song and dialled in.

I don't think Serena fans are the ones who are looking insecure in this thread.

Volcana
Sep 12th, 2009, 02:52 AM
You almost have to maintain two seperate lists. One for players who played a lot of doubles, and one for those who who only dabbled in it, or never played it at all. Graf barely played doubles. If you keep it to people who took it at all seriously, Serena's next target is Maria Bueno.

39 = 12 16 11 BJK ...........
37 = 06 21 10 Margaret Osbourne Dupont
35 = 06 21 08 Louise Brough
35 = 06 14 15 Doris Hart
31 = 19 06 06 Helen Wills Moody (Not sure)
31 = 12 11 08 Lenglen
25 = 07 11 07 Maria Bueno
22 = 11 09 02 Serena
22 = 00 18 04 Natasha Zvereva
22 = 00 21 01 Pam Shiver
18 = 07 09 02 Venus
14 = 07 06 01 Evonne Goalagong
13 = 08 02 03 Molla Mallory

tennisbear7
Sep 12th, 2009, 02:54 AM
I don't think Serena fans are the ones who are looking insecure in this thread.

They are when they find the need to constantly compare Serena to the powerhouses of women's tennis over the last three decades.

Donny
Sep 12th, 2009, 02:56 AM
They are when they find the need to constantly compare Serena to the powerhouses of women's tennis over the last three decades.

I wasn't aware that Court, duPont, Brough, Hart, Moody, and Ryan were "powerhouses of women's tennis over the last three decades."

Volcana
Sep 12th, 2009, 02:57 AM
Oh yes. Just ask Graf and Evert or even Seles. Doubles are just the icing on the cake.Couldn't I as easily ask Navratilova or Hingis or King? It's almost (almost) like Graf's dominance was an aberation. Of the four most accomplished singles players post Graf, three of them have significant doubles accomplishments.

NOTE: Serena and Venus each have 11 doubles and mixed titles. Hingis has ten. That's not right. Hingis needs to come back again. I know she's mad at the tour, but she could be winning doubles slams when she's 40.

tennisbear7
Sep 12th, 2009, 02:59 AM
I wasn't aware that Court, duPont, Brough, Hart, Moody, and Ryan were "powerhouses of women's tennis over the last three decades."

I started with Graf because that was the main comparison here.

Your posts in the (yet another) Henin vs Serena thread also showcases your insecurity. If I was as ardent a Serena fan as you were, I would have just steered clear and backed my eleven slams to Henin's seven. Poor you though, needing to defend Serena when she probably couldn't give a hoot about such comparisons herself :(

I know Serena's superior, as I said, to 99.9% of all players, of all time. She's my favourite player to watch when she's streamrolling the opposition. Is that not enough for you? Why do you need to keep reinforcing it? There's tennis outside one player.

Is all that good? Good. I'll leave this thread now, with full knowledge that Serena will win her 12th slam and be in reach of BJK's singles haul next. You should do the same.

Stamp Paid
Sep 12th, 2009, 03:10 AM
22 of Steffi's 24 total GS titles came from the singles event. It easily trumps anything Serena has done in her career.http://i29.tinypic.com/15hbh3d.jpg

thankfully thats not what this thread is about. Cool Sam, I didnt know this. Go Serena. :)

kiwifan
Sep 12th, 2009, 03:11 AM
Silly Goose, combined Slams don't count for Serena...they only count when you're talking about one of the Martinas. :tape:

mauresmofan
Sep 12th, 2009, 03:37 AM
And? The only top singles players who began to neglect doubles were the ones who were never any threat in doubles in the first place, so it makes no difference.

I absolutely wouldn't say that about Graf she was a very good doubles player but NEVER concentarated on it due to all the injuries.

DOUBLEFIST
Sep 12th, 2009, 03:39 AM
http://i29.tinypic.com/15hbh3d.jpg
:spit:

Pureracket
Sep 12th, 2009, 03:41 AM
I guess this makes Serena a better all around champion than Graf. I see nothing wrong with that. Graf was a great player in her own right. She was just not able to fully adjust her game to doubles like Serena obviously can.

AcesHigh
Sep 12th, 2009, 03:46 AM
Anything you can do to put Serena above Graf I guess

RVD
Sep 12th, 2009, 03:50 AM
Indeed, Serena has extraordinary feet.

http://www.reasonforliberty.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/serena-williams.jpgWhat feet?

I can't get past the cleavage. :lol: :o

RVD
Sep 12th, 2009, 03:55 AM
But playing doubles is like playing a completely different game. You cannot expect to do everything you do in singles and win a match in doubles - you have to adapt, this is why so many singles players suffer in doubles.Martina Navratilova is on the phone. :bolt:

spiritedenergy
Sep 12th, 2009, 04:02 AM
Serena > Graf in every possible way:wavey:

trufanjay
Sep 12th, 2009, 04:04 AM
Consistency also matters in GOAT discussions :shrug:

Serena's huge 20+ GS haul will be the best thing since Graf, Evert, Navratilova and Seles. It's am amazing achievement. Serena will always be up there in talking about the greatest of all time, but she won't get the figures Navratilova did in all forms of the game, and she won't get 22 singles slams, and probably not 18 either.

You should be content with your favourites instead of trying to prove your case at every given juncture.
To be honest, how can someone obtain 20+ grand slam SINGLES titles with the state of the women's game today? It's different. Think about it.

spencercarlos
Sep 12th, 2009, 04:25 AM
I guess this makes Serena a better all around champion than Graf. I see nothing wrong with that. Graf was a great player in her own right. She was just not able to fully adjust her game to doubles like Serena obviously can.
You master of delusion among others, Graf cared sh.t about doubles she only played them on her first few years of her carreer, when other doubles legends were around, Navratilova/Shriver, Mandlikova, and so on.

Serena is not better all around champion than Graf, on anything about singles play, titles, consisntecy, weeks at number one, all around consistency at slams (4 wins on each at least), and since Graf barely played or put main attention to doubles, this is seems to be THE ONLY WAY you can put Serena above Graf, sure in your deluded mind. :lol:

:wavey:

Donny
Sep 12th, 2009, 04:29 AM
You master of delusion among others, Graf cared sh.t about doubles she only played them on her first few years of her carreer, when other doubles legends were around, Navratilova/Shriver, Mandlikova, and so on.

Serena is not better all around champion than Graf, on anything about singles play, titles, consisntecy, weeks at number one, all around consistency at slams (4 wins on each at least), and since Graf barely played or put main attention to doubles, this is seems to be THE ONLY WAY you can put Serena above Graf, sure in your deluded mind. :lol:

:wavey:

Serena doesn't care about non slams or weeks at number one. So I guess we shouldn't count those either. Lulz.

And this from a guy who throws around the word 'delusional' like it's a frisbee.

Sam L
Sep 12th, 2009, 04:30 AM
Serena doesn't care about non slams or weeks or number one. So I guess we shouldn't count those either. Lulz.

And this from a guy who throws around the word 'delusional' like it's a frisbee.
Owned. :spit: :worship: :lol:

trufanjay
Sep 12th, 2009, 04:32 AM
We can try to make comparisons all we want, but the fact of the matter is, TENNIS is not a good sport to argue past and present. The game has evolved with different aspects and different depths of competition. I don't think it means the same to win 20 grand slam titles now as it did thirty of forty years ago. Thats my opinion.

Serenita
Sep 12th, 2009, 04:38 AM
Serena doesn't care about non slams or weeks or number one. So I guess we shouldn't count those either. Lulz.

And this from a guy who throws around the word 'delusional' like it's a frisbee.
:spit:
:lol::lol:

mdterp01
Sep 12th, 2009, 04:44 AM
Jesus Christ...do people know how to read. The thread didn't say anything about Serena's accomplishment being better than Graf's because Graf has more singles titles. It says that Serena is set to overtake Graf in ALL TIME COMBINED grand slam list. Thats all it said. Didn't say Serena was better than Graf did it? No...don't think so. Learn to read first before talking out of the side of your ass as usual. Kthanksbye. :wavey: :rolleyes:

Brooks.
Sep 12th, 2009, 05:00 AM
People are so hateful, when it comes to Serena.

When their favorite player wins some tier III in Mexico, they jump for joy. :tape: Serena is the best player since Graf. And she still has plenty of good years left. Deal with it.

disposablehero
Sep 12th, 2009, 05:30 AM
But playing doubles is like playing a completely different game. You cannot expect to do everything you do in singles and win a match in doubles - you have to adapt, this is why so many singles players suffer in doubles.
It amazes me how incredibly well Monica did on the rare occasions she played doubles. If anyone's game would seem entirely unsuited for it, it would be hers.

FrauleinSteffi
Sep 12th, 2009, 06:06 AM
no offense but wake me up when she has 22 Slam single titles ok...Serena is one of the best ever but She is not in Steffi's league quite yet

G1Player2
Sep 12th, 2009, 06:27 AM
Serena doesn't care about non slams or weeks at number one. So I guess we shouldn't count those either. Lulz.

And this from a guy who throws around the word 'delusional' like it's a frisbee.

:lol:

Stamp Paid
Sep 12th, 2009, 06:29 AM
People are so hateful, when it comes to Serena.

When their favorite player wins some tier III in Mexico, they jump for joy. :tape: Serena is the best player since Graf. And she still has plenty of good years left. Deal with it.OK!!!!

MrSerenaWilliams
Sep 12th, 2009, 06:44 AM
OK!!!!

or a Tier IX in Slovenia :rolleyes: bitch.boo.bye.

Stamp Paid
Sep 12th, 2009, 06:46 AM
Not a Tier 9. LMAO
Reginald the suspense is killing me.

RVD
Sep 12th, 2009, 06:50 AM
Serena doesn't care about non slams or weeks at number one. So I guess we shouldn't count those either. Lulz.

And this from a guy who throws around the word 'delusional' like it's a frisbee.:haha: :haha: Too true. :lol:

JackFrost
Sep 12th, 2009, 06:56 AM
Historically, tennis has been about singles, doubles and mixed doubles.

The Wimbledon men's doubles and the US women's doubles championships are both older than the Australian singles championships for both men and women.

I think it's extremely naive to just simply rule out doubles as if it's another sport or something irrelevant.

If you're a serious fan of tennis, you shouldn't be saying something like that. And yes, it does matter in GOAT discussions.
Write that to Eurosport, when they switch off or prefering taped matches before showing a single ball of a double match. :angel:
To the subject: I see it like the poster who said, that with 22 singles Graf had archived more than Serena.
In singles you can´t depend on your partner to get you through the match, if you have a bad day.
Serenas grand slam record is nontheless a great thing, which she and her fans can be proud of. ;)

RVD
Sep 12th, 2009, 06:57 AM
Jesus Christ...do people know how to read. The thread didn't say anything about Serena's accomplishment being better than Graf's because Graf has more singles titles. It says that Serena is set to overtake Graf in ALL TIME COMBINED grand slam list. Thats all it said. Didn't say Serena was better than Graf did it? No...don't think so. Learn to read first before talking out of the side of your ass as usual. Kthanksbye. :wavey: :rolleyes:This right here. :worship:

And apparently some people are also brain dead too because even after you posted this, they still don't...



...get



...it.


:smash: :banghead:

PLP
Sep 12th, 2009, 07:01 AM
A major is STILL a major.
That is one thing that I love about both Serena and Venus, the know how important GS titles are...& not just in singles, as their record(s) indicate.

MrSerenaWilliams
Sep 12th, 2009, 07:06 AM
Not a Tier 9. LMAO
Reginald the suspense is killing me.

I just sent you the most brilliant tweet ever.

Lindsayfan32
Sep 12th, 2009, 07:10 AM
What a stupid irrelevant thread. Singles are singles. Doubles are doubles. Period.

Totally agree with you. Serena is still 11 behind Steffi on the only slam list that matters and that's the singles titles won. Serena's fans just have to face the hard cold facts there are players or former players that are better than Serena.

MrSerenaWilliams
Sep 12th, 2009, 07:17 AM
Totally agree with you. Serena is still 11 behind Steffi on the only slam list that matters and that's the singles titles won. Serena's fans just have to face the hard cold facts there are players or former players that are better than Serena.

Where in the OP is anything about the word "better"?

Serena haters just have to face the cold hard facts, that while Serena is far from being the single-greatest player in the history of tennis, she is on the short list of some of the greatest singles players of the Open Era and is 1/2 of one of the best doubles teams in the Open Era* :wavey:






*and with every win, she's only getting better and better and adding more to her hall-of-fame resume.

JackFrost
Sep 12th, 2009, 07:25 AM
A major is STILL a major.
That is one thing that I love about both Serena and Venus, the know how important GS titles are...& not just in singles, as their record(s) indicate.
So why do people call jankovic and safina then slamless number 1?

MrSerenaWilliams
Sep 12th, 2009, 07:39 AM
So why do people call jankovic and safina then slamless number 1?

because they're not #1 in mixed doubles. there's no ranking for that.

Chairpersons
Sep 12th, 2009, 07:49 AM
What a stupid irrelevant thread. Singles are singles. Doubles are doubles. Period.

Yes,doubles are only for fun.There is no hardwork,no inspiration...,

Steffi is the best ever and won most GS than anyone in open era.

for more visit my site: Steffi Graf fansite (http://s-m-graf.blogspot.com)

DOUBLEFIST
Sep 12th, 2009, 08:02 AM
I don't understand why this is stupid and irrelevant.

No one said there isn't a distinction between the two. The OP merely said Serena's going to have more overall GS titles. Which is fact- an interesting fact AND noteworthy achievement.

Why all the animus?

Caralenko
Sep 12th, 2009, 08:06 AM
because they're not #1 in mixed doubles. there's no ranking for that.

Exactly, they've both won a doubles Slam, (Dinara - USO '07) (Jankovic - Wimbly '07) - they still count as Grand Slams, so the argument about slamless n#1's is pointless in this thread.

Which, I might remind everyone, is about Serena's achievement, NOT comparing her play to Graf's.

MrSerenaWilliams
Sep 12th, 2009, 08:07 AM
Yes,doubles are only for fun.There is no hardwork,no inspiration...,

Steffi is the best ever and won most GS than anyone in open era.

for more visit my site: Steffi Graf fansite (http://s-m-graf.blogspot.com)

Most inane post I've EVER read.

Talula
Sep 12th, 2009, 09:18 AM
Steffi profitted from having her closest rival stabbed and out of action for over 2 years. Serena has not had that advantage. So in my view Steffi's 'record' always has a question mark over it. Serena's doesn't. It would have been like Henin having been stabbed and out of action for the best 2 years of her careeer.

ce
Sep 12th, 2009, 09:32 AM
:hearts:

Dodoboy.
Sep 12th, 2009, 10:18 AM
Why are people getting so defensive about ANYTHING that DARES defy Graf! There are other women above Graf to in THIS SPECIFIC list :wavey:

Suan le! After this tournament hopefully Serena > Graf in COMBINED SLAM TITLES! Is that really all that hard to understand? No it doesn't mean Serena is a better player or is GOAT. :lol:

Lindsayfan32
Sep 12th, 2009, 10:22 AM
Steffi profitted from having her closest rival stabbed and out of action for over 2 years. Serena has not had that advantage. So in my view Steffi's 'record' always has a question mark over it. Serena's doesn't. It would have been like Henin having been stabbed and out of action for the best 2 years of her careeer.

Steffi won 22 slams end of story. She could only beat the players that were put in front of her and she didn't ask for Seles to be stabbed. The same could be said for Serena now the tour is a lot weaker now she winning again.

sammy01
Sep 12th, 2009, 10:34 AM
And nowhere in the thread is an attempt to compare Serena's career to Graf's, it's just stating that should Serena win her next 3 matches @ the US Open this year, she will own more total major titles than Graf.

i suggest you look up the word compare, because pitting someones achievements against someone elses is comparing them lol

if the thread was 'serena might end the us open with 24 slams combined', that is not comparing, so don't be suprised when graf fans snap back, as they could open a million threads with meaningless stats that are better than serena's and compare the two. i can garentee you'd be all up in that thread telling people total weeks at #1 or titles don't have much relevance, like doubles doesn't anymore.

die_wahrheit
Sep 12th, 2009, 10:37 AM
Winning doubles is today even easier than at the times when Navratilova/Shriver cruised through the draws.
Doubles have no prestige left. Nothing.
Mixed is a pure show event, doubles is on the way. It is even already for the men.

die_wahrheit
Sep 12th, 2009, 10:42 AM
Serena should be ashamed to take away the prize money from the lower class doubles players.
It is like Federer competing in future tournaments.

Bijoux0021
Sep 12th, 2009, 10:54 AM
Serena should be ashamed to take away the prize money from the lower class doubles players.
It is like Federer competing in future tournaments.
I doubt Venus and Serena are playing doubles because of the money.

Matt01
Sep 12th, 2009, 11:09 AM
Serena doesn't care about non slams or weeks at number one. So I guess we shouldn't count those either. Lulz.

And this from a guy who throws around the word 'delusional' like it's a frisbee.


Your logic is so f*cked up I don't even know where to start. Spencercarlos is right. You are wrong. AS ALWAYS.

Pureracket
Sep 12th, 2009, 12:16 PM
I'm sure Graf regrets not working harder on her doubles game. She really could have been the best all around champion in womens tennis. As it stands, she is going to be seen as a phenomenal singles player but falling way short of "total" champion when the conversation starts. I'm glad Serena is taking the records seriously. Unfortunately, Graf did not.

AcesHigh
Sep 12th, 2009, 12:23 PM
I'm sure Graf regrets not working harder on her doubles game. She really could have been the best all around champion in womens tennis. As it stands, she is going to be seen as a phenomenal singles player but falling way short of "total" champion when the conversation starts. I'm glad Serena is taking the records seriously. Unfortunately, Graf did not.

:spit: Yea, sure. I'm sure Steffi loses sleep at night over this.

volta
Sep 12th, 2009, 12:29 PM
Serena should be ashamed to take away the prize money from the lower class doubles players.
It is like Federer competing in future tournaments.

:spit:

yeah, Serena ,Venus, Lindsay , Hingis etc they should all be banned from playing doubles and should give the prize money back :(

sammy01
Sep 12th, 2009, 12:36 PM
I'm sure Graf regrets not working harder on her doubles game. She really could have been the best all around champion in womens tennis. As it stands, she is going to be seen as a phenomenal singles player but falling way short of "total" champion when the conversation starts. I'm glad Serena is taking the records seriously. Unfortunately, Graf did not.

lol and when serenas retires and looks back she will regret not trying to win every title she enters and putting in the effort to be #1 for many more weeks. just a few things that will make serena fall short of a 'total' champion when the coversation starts. those are records serena obviously takes seriously :help:

Pureracket
Sep 12th, 2009, 12:39 PM
lol and when serenas retires and looks back she will regret not trying to win every title she enters and putting in the effort to be #1 for many more weeks. just a few things that will make serena fall short of a 'total' champion when the coversation starts. those are records serena obviously takes seriously :help:Seems like you may need to start another thread, then. We're talking about GS all around champions. The discussion of smaller titles and weeks @ #1 are simply distractions to this thread. Most intelligent people would be able to stay on topic.

mdterp01
Sep 12th, 2009, 01:18 PM
Jesus Christ...do people know how to read. The thread didn't say anything about Serena's accomplishment being better than Graf's because Graf has more singles titles. It says that Serena is set to overtake Graf in ALL TIME COMBINED grand slam list. Thats all it said. Didn't say Serena was better than Graf did it? No...don't think so. Learn to read first before talking out of the side of your ass as usual. Kthanksbye. :wavey: :rolleyes:

Apparently the above needed to be repeated Now Steffi Graf is my all time #1 favorite tennis player (male or female) so I wouldn't say that Serena is better than she is, but again...thats not what the original poster said. Worked on phonics.... :rolleyes:

Miss Atomic Bomb
Sep 12th, 2009, 01:22 PM
lol and when serenas retires and looks back she will regret not trying to win every title she enters and putting in the effort to be #1 for many more weeks. just a few things that will make serena fall short of a 'total' champion when the coversation starts. those are records serena obviously takes seriously :help:

This is what Serena had to say again , when she was asked about the number 1 rank -

LoihaiElyOk

MistyGrey
Sep 12th, 2009, 01:41 PM
Congrats Serena! :)
doesnt matter much though.. Graf is still >>>> Serena! ;)

die_wahrheit
Sep 12th, 2009, 01:41 PM
I doubt Venus and Serena are playing doubles because of the money.

But lower class players do. And they need the money because they are to weak for singles.

volta
Sep 12th, 2009, 01:46 PM
But lower class players do. And they need the money because they are to weak for singles.

the entire top 10 , 20 , 30 , 40, 50 etc in singles should retire as well i mean there are lower class players out there loosing money because of them...it's only fair :rolleyes:

Bijoux0021
Sep 12th, 2009, 01:58 PM
This is what Serena had to say again , when she was asked about the number 1 rank -

LoihaiElyOk
:lol: @ Andy Roddick and Serena. "Oh, whatever."

She needs to stop torturing Andy and give him that rematch. Now she's saying she beats him in baseball, tennis and everything. "I'm just a better athlete than Andy Roddick." :lol: Poor Andy!

Bijoux0021
Sep 12th, 2009, 02:04 PM
But lower class players do. And they need the money because they are to weak for singles.
So all great players should not enter competitions that pay money because other players are weak? And is this solely apply to Venus and Serena?:confused:

SerenaSlam
Sep 12th, 2009, 02:21 PM
22 of Steffi's 24 total GS titles came from the singles event. It easily trumps anything Serena has done in her career.

i have a question...out of those 22 singles titles she only has the two doubles titles. did she ever win both singles and doubles in the same event? like serena has done many of times? serena has 9 doubles titles. and i think over half of those she also won the singles. amazing if you ask me. to physically be able to go out there and make it to the final weeks in both events. and win. IMO a physical level that is clearly above that of when steffi was playing...IMO IMO IMO!!!!

cant stress the IMO part (i've come to learn the age group of people on this board...have to reinterrate some times...lmao)

SerenaSlam
Sep 12th, 2009, 02:28 PM
lol and when serenas retires and looks back she will regret not trying to win every title she enters and putting in the effort to be #1 for many more weeks. just a few things that will make serena fall short of a 'total' champion when the coversation starts. those are records serena obviously takes seriously :help:

this is a true statement. but at the end of the day if i were serena i would feel like this. out of the 100's currently on the tour who else is going to even get part of that conversation. id rather be apart of something then nothing at all. i.e. do we think 10 years down the line we are going to be talking about how great Penetta is? or Schnyder, petrova, kuznetsova, ivanovic, jankovic etc etc etc. lets not talk about a "total" champion when the candidates you have for that category right now soley cover ONE person out of an entire tour...IMO at the end of the day when safina retires i guess she won't regret the below par slam count if any because she will have had the "effort" to show her "weeks at number 1"???? ummm....OK!! lmao

Olórin
Sep 12th, 2009, 03:01 PM
After reading this thread I am yet again asking myself, why do some people have this "Serena-fan" complex? It's as if everything any Serena fan does must have a negative motive behind it, or must be rooted in some psychological insecurity brought about by...blah blah blah. :rolleyes: You people are boring!

An interesting if unimportant stat. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

disposablehero
Sep 12th, 2009, 03:07 PM
Steffi won 22 slams end of story. She could only beat the players that were put in front of her and she didn't ask for Seles to be stabbed. The same could be said for Serena now the tour is a lot weaker now she winning again.
She did, however, ask for Seles to recieve no protection of her ranking should she come back. And proceeded to go on a massive heater including a "Consecutive Grand Slam". So apparently she was too upset about it.

Caillou
Sep 12th, 2009, 03:53 PM
GOATRENA! Keep collecting the hardware serena...prove the haters wrong and make your fans proud! She is really seperating her accomplishments from venus'..as a fan of both its sad to see. I WANNA SEE THEM TIE IN EVERY STAT;) Kinda got distracted, but yeah great stuff serena, keep it up throughout the next few years, and we will look back and be amazed we thought 22 grand slams was a lot..

Lulu.
Sep 12th, 2009, 04:17 PM
:bowdown:

fammmmedspin
Sep 12th, 2009, 05:17 PM
i have a question...out of those 22 singles titles she only has the two doubles titles. did she ever win both singles and doubles in the same event? like serena has done many of times? serena has 9 doubles titles. and i think over half of those she also won the singles. amazing if you ask me. to physically be able to go out there and make it to the final weeks in both events. and win. IMO a physical level that is clearly above that of when steffi was playing...IMO IMO IMO!!!!

cant stress the IMO part (i've come to learn the age group of people on this board...have to reinterrate some times...lmao)

Yes but Graf played a full tour and chalked up figures for tournament wins and weeks at number one that Serena could never get near with her schedule. Its a lot easier to do well at GS when you don't do much outside them and your opponents do and when playing doubles may help add the match experience you are otherwise missing. Its impractical when you are going very deep and winning in singles all over the place for all of the year - Kim and Martina tried both and look what happened to them .

There's also a more difficult question about the quality of the doubles tour then and now - its certainly got fewer top players playing at all on it and its debatable if the doubles specialists are also weaker or whether the Williams sisters would blow anyone away anyway.

hingis-seles
Sep 12th, 2009, 05:50 PM
When their favorite player wins some tier III in Mexico, they jump for joy. :tape:

http://www.reuters.com/resources/r/?m=02&d=20090301&t=2&i=8457333&w=450&r=2009-03-01T031631Z_01_BTRE520093Y00_RTROPTP_0_TENNIS

Oh.

Stamp Paid
Sep 12th, 2009, 05:51 PM
Oh.if the shoe fits, LMAO

Donny
Sep 12th, 2009, 05:53 PM
Your logic is so f*cked up I don't even know where to start. Spencercarlos is right. You are wrong. AS ALWAYS.


You giving lectures on logic is like the Klan giving lectures on race relations.

Markus
Sep 12th, 2009, 05:59 PM
i have a question...out of those 22 singles titles she only has the two doubles titles. did she ever win both singles and doubles in the same event? like serena has done many of times? serena has 9 doubles titles. and i think over half of those she also won the singles. amazing if you ask me. to physically be able to go out there and make it to the final weeks in both events. and win. IMO a physical level that is clearly above that of when steffi was playing...IMO IMO IMO!!!!

cant stress the IMO part (i've come to learn the age group of people on this board...have to reinterrate some times...lmao)

Actually Steffi has 23 gs titles in total, Steffi has only 1 grand slam doubles title which is 1988 Wimbledon with Sabatini. And yes she did win the singles event as well, for the first time in Wimbledon.

Anyway as I am a big fan of both players I think it is a great achievement for Serena to be that successful both in singles and doubles. A pity that she stopped playing mixed.

Thanx4nothin
Sep 12th, 2009, 06:31 PM
After reading this thread I am yet again asking myself, why do some people have this "Serena-fan" complex? It's as if everything any Serena fan does must have a negative motive behind it, or must be rooted in some psychological insecurity brought about by...blah blah blah. :rolleyes: You people are boring!

An interesting if unimportant stat. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

:worship: As usual the most intelligent poster on this forum!

If this was ANY OTHER PLAYER, the achievement would be noted without all the nonsense in this thread...it is a PHENOMENAL ACHIEVEMENT.

serenus_2k8
Sep 12th, 2009, 06:39 PM
Serena :worship: And people still question if Justine is better :tape:

Matt01
Sep 12th, 2009, 06:44 PM
Serena :worship: And people still question if Justine is better :tape:


And this thread has exactly what to do with Justine? :weirdo:

Slammer7
Sep 12th, 2009, 07:21 PM
Nice stat about Serena. :yeah: :hearts:

Goodness every time Graf's name is mentioned here people get so damned defensive. Graf's accomplishments speaks for themselves. Steffi isn't really worried about her place in history, so why should it bother some that Serena has achieved so much in singles, doubles and mixed? :shrug: Navratilova is the all time queen in the open era in this statistic anyway, so why are Graf fans and others so offended? :scratch: As much as I'm not a fan of Navratilova I give her a great deal of :worship: :worship: :worship: and respect to her for being excellent in all 3 disciplines of tennis. :yeah:



Oh.

http://onthebaseline.com/uploads/venus_doha_trophy.jpg

OH.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_0M_KdlZIAtk/SaA-AeUU7gI/AAAAAAAAPxo/ZSKem6xKJ8M/s400/610x.jpg

OH.

http://kc009.k12.sd.us/images/jump%20smiley.gif :ras:

SoClose
Sep 12th, 2009, 07:44 PM
:worship:Serena:worship:

serenus_2k8
Sep 12th, 2009, 07:46 PM
And this thread has exactly what to do with Justine? :weirdo:

Nothing, she is irrelevant. Its all about Serena :drool:

tennislover
Sep 12th, 2009, 07:50 PM
I'm sure Graf regrets not working harder on her doubles game

True

add that it would have helped her to improve her net game ( :tape: )

Bijoux0021
Sep 12th, 2009, 07:51 PM
Nothing, she is irrelevant. Its all about Serena :drool:
:D

RVD
Sep 12th, 2009, 07:54 PM
Serena should be ashamed to take away the prize money from the lower class doubles players.
It is like Federer competing in future tournaments.I can NOT be reading this right!!!!

So are you saying that the weak players should rule the WTA or get special treatment, or not have to play the stronger players, purely on the basis that they are weak? :haha: :haha:

Oh my goodness!
This has been an interesting 2 days. :lol: :lol:

MistyGrey
Sep 13th, 2009, 03:13 AM
well maybe at the AO! ;)

MrSerenaWilliams
Sep 13th, 2009, 03:37 AM
she'll probably still (at least) tie her here :wavey:

Sam L
Jan 26th, 2010, 02:08 AM
She's equal right now. One more will do it. :D Venus closing in. Some record books I've read have excluded doubles wins by Brough and duPont in the WWII years. I thought about this and left it in. It doesn't really change the overall picture, it's more for a discussion around competition during the war years.

1. Court - 64
2. Navratilova - 56
3. King - 39
4. duPont - 37
5. Brough - 35
5. Hart - 35
7. Wills-Moody - 31
8. Ryan - 26
9. Graf - 23
9. S. Williams - 23 (Can win up to 2 this slam)

---

V. Williams - 19 (Can win up to 2 this slam)

Bump. It's slam time and you know what that means. RECORDS! :D

This is exciting! :bounce:

PlayByPlay
Jan 26th, 2010, 03:58 AM
Serena is definitely a hard worker when it comes to her game. A very passionate player if she does overtake Graf Kudos to her.

new-york
Jan 26th, 2010, 04:23 AM
It's just a cool feat.

Nobody said Serena was the new Navratilova.

Mrs. Peel
Jan 26th, 2010, 04:45 AM
Serena:worship::worship::worship:

friendsita
Jan 26th, 2010, 06:07 AM
Go Ree!

Uranium
Jan 26th, 2010, 06:08 AM
She is probably going to once she wins Doubles on Friday.

kyk710
Jan 26th, 2010, 06:12 AM
Totally agree with you. Serena is still 11 behind Steffi on the only slam list that matters and that's the singles titles won. Serena's fans just have to face the hard cold facts there are players or former players that are better than Serena.

Better?
Better serve, better backhand, better movement, better fight, better forehand, better return. Yeah I can think of a lot of current and former players that fit this description... If there is only one slam list that matters, why are doubles and mixed doubles even contested at the majors? Better yet, they should just abolish all doubles from tennis. Maybe then I would be able to face the "hard cold facts" that Serena just isn't that great. ;)

BlameSerena
Jan 26th, 2010, 07:50 AM
^^Haters exit to the left.

markdelaney
Jan 26th, 2010, 07:53 AM
I wonder if the atp forums have the same boast from the Mike Bryan fans. He's gonna be better than Federer soon !

Patrick345
Jan 26th, 2010, 07:58 AM
I wonder if the atp forums have the same boast from the Mike Bryan fans. He's gonna be better than Federer soon !

:lol::lol::lol::worship:

For real. Thread.

BlameSerena
Jan 26th, 2010, 08:02 AM
^^"Overtaking," as in having numerically more slams or another way to say it is Serena will surpass Graf in slam count. That is what the title states, not that Serena is "better" than Graf, or are you guys threatened that will be the case someday? Hmmmm....

A little reading comprehension goes a long way.

Patrick345
Jan 26th, 2010, 08:09 AM
I absolutely wouldn't say that about Graf she was a very good doubles player but NEVER concentarated on it due to all the injuries.

Almost every great singles player can be a great doubles player. Many just don´t give a sh*t. Does anybody really think Black, Huber, Llagostera Vives, Stubbs, Ruano-Pascual, Garrigues, Hsieh and Peng would be in the top 12 in doubles, if all the top singles players bothered to play doubles regularly. Every doubles specialist would change the paycheck of a doubles title for that of a singles title, if they could. Doubles are only relevant at the Olympics, because Gold is Gold.

End of thread pt.2 :p

JJPower
Jan 26th, 2010, 09:25 AM
Is this just a desperate try to level Serena with Graf? Cause Serena is good, but please. Serena is almost nobody compared to GOAT GRAF. She couldn't even win calendar slam, so she got quasi-slam called Serena slam, unlike Graf who has GOLDEN one. Singles titles count! NOT to mention that Serena basically got bunch of titles recently cause WTA currently sucks.

Sam L
Jan 26th, 2010, 09:31 AM
I wonder if the atp forums have the same boast from the Mike Bryan fans. He's gonna be better than Federer soon !

For real? He only has nine. And yes Todd Woodbridges and Elizabeth Ryans aren't looked upon with that much respect in these lists because of their lack of singles success but nonetheless they are still part of Grand Slam tennis history. And interestingly, only one of the top ten in each list has never had singles Grand Slam success.

Almost every great singles player can be a great doubles player. Many just don´t give a sh*t. Does anybody really think Black, Huber, Llagostera Vives, Stubbs, Ruano-Pascual, Garrigues, Hsieh and Peng would be in the top 12 in doubles, if all the top singles players bothered to play doubles regularly. Every doubles specialist would change the paycheck of a doubles title for that of a singles title, if they could. Doubles are only relevant at the Olympics, because Gold is Gold.

End of thread pt.2 :p

But they don't. To have singles and doubles success in a Grand Slam is a special thing. It's been part of tennis history from the very beginning. Ignoring it is just pure ignorance.

dsanders06
Jan 26th, 2010, 09:41 AM
I'm sure Graf loses sleep every night because she didn't ever get to beat up on the likes of Cara Black and Virginia Ruano Pascual.


But they don't. To have singles and doubles success in a Grand Slam is a special thing. It's been part of tennis history from the very beginning. Ignoring it is just pure ignorance.

Cincinnati is older than the Australian Open (singles and doubles), so I guess by your logic that age is what matters, a Cincy title > AO.

Patrick345
Jan 26th, 2010, 09:47 AM
I'm sure Graf loses sleep every night because she didn't ever get to beat up on the likes of Cara Black and Virginia Ruano Pascual.

:lol:


Cincinnati is older than the Australian Open (singles and doubles), so I guess by your logic that age is what matters, a Cincy title > AO.

:lol:

davgis
Jan 26th, 2010, 10:41 AM
Well done Serena but no one will ever get anywhere near close to Margaret and Martina. 64 and 56!:eek:

Volcana
Jan 26th, 2010, 01:12 PM
What a stupid irrelevant thread. Singles are singles. Doubles are doubles. Period.What a stupid irrelevant post. If you don;t like it, leave the thread.

Some players have attempted to excel at tennis as a team sport, and as an individual sport. Obviously more difficult than only exceling at one or the other, but not wholely unrelated. A bit like attmpting to excel at sixes volleyball, and doubles beach volleyball. Not the same sport, but not entirely seperate either. And a very few people have excelled at both. There's an outside shot Serena could catch BJK, but she'd probably have to play til she's 35. Or play mixed regularly.

Serena's done well, but the top two are probaby unreachable. (Wikipedia has those totals as 59 and 62, but it's hardly an unimpeachable source.) It's amazing that an Open Era player got as close to Court as Nav did.

thrust
Jan 26th, 2010, 01:49 PM
Historically, tennis has been about singles, doubles and mixed doubles.

The Wimbledon men's doubles and the US women's doubles championships are both older than the Australian singles championships for both men and women.

I think it's extremely naive to just simply rule out doubles as if it's another sport or something irrelevant.

If you're a serious fan of tennis, you shouldn't be saying something like that. And yes, it does matter in GOAT discussions.

That used to be the case, however, since the Court-King Era most top singles players do not play doubles. The Williams are great singles players who are competing against tier two singles players, at best. Therefore, doubles wins were much more significant then than they are today.

Lulu.
Jan 26th, 2010, 02:06 PM
GOATrena. :bowdown:

Pureracket
Jan 26th, 2010, 02:23 PM
Congrats to Serena. Great achievement!

BuTtErFrEnA
Jan 26th, 2010, 03:30 PM
amazing how much doubles doesn't count when martina n. came back a few years ago just so she could break bjk's record of total slams won...not all that unimportant to the GOATs now is it??? if you don't like doubles, just say that...but don't say it's not important when CLEARLY it is

RVD
Jan 26th, 2010, 10:16 PM
Serena is simply an AMAZING talent.

What's even more amazing is how just much she threatens the fans of past greats as well.
That's when you KNOW you've reached critical aclaim and the highest echelons of your craft. Serena is justly worthy of worship. :worship: :cool:

mdterp01
Jan 26th, 2010, 10:23 PM
22 of Steffi's 24 total GS titles came from the singles event. It easily trumps anything Serena has done in her career.

Jesus Christ how about reading first? The title didn't talk about it being better than Graf's accomplishment. It simply stated A FACT about COMBINED career grand slams. People always rushin to throw haterade on the party. Get a life!!! :wavey:

tennisbear7
Jan 26th, 2010, 10:31 PM
Amazing achievement from Serena. :worship::worship:

Lindsayfan32
Jan 27th, 2010, 01:39 AM
There's only one grand slam total that counts and that singles titles. Graf 22 Serena 11 enough said.

Thanx4nothin
Jan 27th, 2010, 01:56 AM
There's only one grand slam total that counts and that singles titles. Graf 22 Serena 11 enough said.

To whom?

Don't state this stuff as though it were fact.

Tennisforum.com not Singlestennisforum.com

Plenty of players care about doubles, as do many of the fans. So stop being so ridiculous.