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Elisse
Sep 10th, 2009, 10:37 PM
Don't know if this has been posted already or not - just found this on the The Sun's website....

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2631482/Runner-is-a-hermaphrodite.html


Runner is a 'hermaphrodite'

THE controversy over gender row champion runner Caster Semenya deepened today — after reports claimed sex swap tests have shown she is a HERMAPHRODITE.

South African gold-medallist Semenya, 18, has both male and female organs, it was claimed.

And sources close to the International Association of Athletics Federations — who ordered extensive tests on the teen after her amazing 800m win at the World Athletics Championships last month — say the results mean she could still be stripped of her medal.

Semenya is claimed to have no womb or ovaries — and has internal testes, the male sexual organs which produce testosterone. The row over Semenya's biology has caused huge divisions — with South African politicians calling slurs she is a man "racist and sexist." Her birth certificate has the teen listed as female and urine tests showed that, despite her having higher than average male hormone levels, they are within the official limits for a woman.

But an IAAF source was today quoted as saying: "There certainly is evidence now that Semenya is a hermaphrodite. "But the trouble is the IAAF now have the whole ANC and the whole of South Africa on their backs. "Everything is going to have to be done absolutely by the book, no question of a challenge to our findings. "There's all sorts of scans you do. This is why it's complicated. "In the past you used to do a gynaecological exam, blood test, chromosome test, whatever. "That's why the findings were challenged, because it's not quite so simple. "So what they do now is they do everything, and then they can say look, not only has she got this, she's got that and the other. "The problem for us is to avoid it being an issue now which is very personal: of the organs being a hermaphrodite, of not being a 'real' woman. "It's very dramatic."

IAAF spokesman Nick Davies was not immediately available to comment on the story.

The organisation confirmed this morning that it had received the test results back and was processing the data. Semenya was ordered to take tests straight after her 800 metres gold at the World Championships in Berlin. The athlete received a heroine's welcome when she arrived back home in South Africa following the backlash. And Semenya's family have slammed the claims, saying: "It is God who made her look that way but she IS a girl." The runner was last week given a make-over by YOU magazine — and called the row over her gender "a joke" as she posed in make-up and a dress.

South Africa's athletics chiefs this evening said they stood by her amid the claims. Athletics South Africa president Leonard Chuene said the organisation would advise the teenager to ignore all media speculation until she had been officially informed of the results of the tests. He said: "We are ignoring these claims. We cannot comment on them as we know nothing about them. "We will wait for the due process to be followed. The authorities have made a statement to say we will be informed about the results and we await that development. "We cannot get involved in gossip of this sort. Our people will speak to Caster this evening and ensure that she puts these rumours from her mind. "She is at university at the moment. She must concentrate on her studies. "We stand fully behind her as our athlete."

Semenya's family also angrily disputed the claims. The athlete's uncle Lesiba Rammabi, 51, said her relatives were 'very humiliated' by the reports. He said: "I believe Caster is normal, inside and out. "What does it matter whether she can have babies or not? Many people cannot have children, why else do parents adopt? Are those women not women also? "We are a normal family who looked at a child when she was born, saw that she was a girl and raised her as any other family would do. Are we now being told that we are wrong? "We are very humiliated by what has been said and do not understand how it can be true. "This is a woman who was raised a female. She will always be female, no matter what people say."

HRHoliviasmith
Sep 10th, 2009, 10:41 PM
kind of expected but wow.

youizahoe
Sep 10th, 2009, 10:44 PM
I wonder how they will handle this.

Steffica Greles
Sep 10th, 2009, 10:48 PM
Girl? Boy? Poor person, either way. Who cares about the gender. I feel terrible for Caster Semanya.

When I see some of the fat lumps on the WTA tour, high in the the rankings, I think it's a travesty that women who are hard-working and athletic like Caster get this type of scrutiny.

Stamp Paid
Sep 10th, 2009, 10:52 PM
Humiliating enough already. :(

drake3781
Sep 10th, 2009, 10:52 PM
With that body she cannot fairly compete with women. So what are they to do?

drake3781
Sep 10th, 2009, 10:54 PM
D

But an IAAF source was today quoted as saying: "There certainly is evidence now that Semenya is a hermaphrodite. "But the trouble is the IAAF now have the whole ANC and the whole of South Africa on their backs. "Everything is going to have to be done absolutely by the book, no question of a challenge to our findings. "There's all sorts of scans you do. This is why it's complicated. "In the past you used to do a gynaecological exam, blood test, chromosome test, whatever. "That's why the findings were challenged, because it's not quite so simple. "So what they do now is they do everything, and then they can say look, not only has she got this, she's got that and the other. "The problem for us is to avoid it being an issue now which is very personal: of the organs being a hermaphrodite, of not being a 'real' woman. "It's very dramatic."




:tape:

Steffica Greles
Sep 10th, 2009, 11:06 PM
With that body she cannot fairly compete with women. So what are they to do?

Nor could Serena, or Mauresmo, or Navratilova.

We all have different testosterone levels, from what I understand. Genitalia is not the sole definition of gender, and a straight line between male and female cannot be drawn.

Elisse
Sep 10th, 2009, 11:08 PM
Yeah I think most of us pretty much expected this result. Now it's gonna create so many problems and issues......what happens if and when she gets striped of her medal, what's gonna be the reaction of South African Federation etc... In some ways it would have been so much easier for IAAF if she had proved to be using a banned substance or had actually been male,.....rather than this conclusion.

In the future this is gonna always be a controversal issue....she is still so young with her whole career in front of her....but if she stays as hermaphrodite there is no way she will be able to compete...meaning she will either have to give up her career as a pro athlete or choose which gender she wants to be and have surgery. This also will create further problems...imagine if she does have the male parts removed and has hormone treatment to be able to complete officially amongst the women.....if she is still so much faster than the others, her gender will always be a issue for her fellow athletes....difficult for all sides involved.

Will be interesting to see what happens next.

Bezz
Sep 10th, 2009, 11:26 PM
It was to be expected the minute she blitzed the rest of the field. It shuts the south africans up and mutes the typical "its racism cos she doesn't adhere to western beauty" crap aswel. There are lots of other female black athletes out there but its blatantly obvious they are women, with caster it was obvious she wasn't.There has always been some female athletes that have masculine features.....but semenya took the biscuit....its unfair on the rest of the girls if she is allowed to compete as a woman....if she wants to be one in her private life then thats up to her.

Monica_Rules
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:02 AM
Not really a shock after seeing her jog to win the 800m.

Wigglytuff
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:02 AM
Nor could Serena, or Mauresmo, or Navratilova.

We all have different testosterone levels, from what I understand. Genitalia is not the sole definition of gender, and a straight line between male and female cannot be drawn.

exactly. i think this is sick and humiliating.

KournikovaFan91
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:43 AM
I dont believe the term hermaphrodite is PC these days.

DiscoStick
Sep 11th, 2009, 01:22 AM
What is this? Human hermaphrodites don't exist :o

The Prophet
Sep 11th, 2009, 02:14 AM
Genitalia is not the sole definition of gender, and a straight line between male and female cannot be drawn.

Semenya has testes and no womb or ovaries. Not. A. Woman. :tape:

delicatecutter
Sep 11th, 2009, 02:19 AM
She apparently has no penis either. :confused:

Tennis Fool
Sep 11th, 2009, 02:46 AM
It was to be expected the minute she blitzed the rest of the field. It shuts the south africans up and mutes the typical "its racism cos she doesn't adhere to western beauty" crap aswel. There are lots of other female black athletes out there but its blatantly obvious they are women, with caster it was obvious she wasn't.
Not according to some people, who wrap their prejudices in "humor"--

http://www.thespoof.com/news/spoof.cfm?headline=s6i59478

Harvs
Sep 11th, 2009, 06:49 AM
so she should be stripped of the medal... would suck, but its only fair thing to do for her competitors.

gentenaire
Sep 11th, 2009, 07:17 AM
Nor could Serena, or Mauresmo, or Navratilova.

We all have different testosterone levels, from what I understand. Genitalia is not the sole definition of gender, and a straight line between male and female cannot be drawn.

In that case, we may as well drop the whole women's competition entirely.

As sad a case as it is for Caster, I do feel she cannot compete with women. It's unfair. The people surrounding seem to be in denial. This whole thing could have been avoided had they been upfront from the start.

TheBoiledEgg
Sep 11th, 2009, 08:03 AM
this was pointed out in Athletics thread 2 weeks before the World champs

Beat
Sep 11th, 2009, 08:18 AM
The athlete's uncle Lesiba Rammabi, 51, said (...) "What does it matter whether she can have babies or not? Many people cannot have children, why else do parents adopt? Are those women not women also?"

well said! :yeah:

p.s.
for a moment, and fittingly enough, i thought this man was called "lesbia" :angel:

gentenaire
Sep 11th, 2009, 09:06 AM
he athlete's uncle Lesiba Rammabi, 51, said (...) "What does it matter whether she can have babies or not? Many people cannot have children, why else do parents adopt? Are those women not women also?"

well said! :yeah:

p.s.
for a moment, and fittingly enough, i thought this man was called "lesbia" :angel:

As a woman in general, it doesn't matter. As an athlete, however, it most certainly does.

Marcelo.
Sep 11th, 2009, 11:11 AM
What is this? Human hermaphrodites don't exist :o

Says who? :confused:



___


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinanci_Silva

Wigglytuff
Sep 11th, 2009, 11:31 AM
Semenya has testes and no womb or ovaries. Not. A. Woman. :tape:

the question is does she have two X chromosomes, if she does she is a woman. and your disgusting claim that women who have had hysterectomies are not women is both ignorant and malicious

Wigglytuff
Sep 11th, 2009, 11:37 AM
if she has two X chromosomes she is a woman. if not than she is not.

people who would say that she can have two X chromosomes and still not be a woman are not talking about gender. they are talking about race, class, both, fashion, the weather, something else but not gender.

mariahdg
Sep 11th, 2009, 11:56 AM
they did not released sex-chromosome test results.
XX, XY, XXY or XYX........

no womb means no menstruation, no way parents have never been aware of that. :rolleyes:
female sex hormone is produced mainly by the ovaries. male sex hormone is produced mainly by the testis.

anyway, the gender of ID shows the social attribute of the person.

BuTtErFrEnA
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:59 PM
if they can admit that the level of testosterone found is within the limits for a woman, then what's all this fuss about...she's a woman...leave her alone...i can guarantee you if this was some european or american woman under investigation, this wouldn't have been a discussion

Scotso
Sep 11th, 2009, 02:19 PM
I dont believe the term hermaphrodite is PC these days.

What is this? Human hermaphrodites don't exist :o

The correct term is intersex.

Sam L
Sep 11th, 2009, 02:32 PM
if she has two X chromosomes she is a woman. if not than she is not.

people who would say that she can have two X chromosomes and still not be a woman are not talking about gender. they are talking about race, class, both, fashion, the weather, something else but not gender.

I agree. Look at the chromosomes and be done with it.

they did not released sex-chromosome test results.
XX, XY, XXY or XYX........


And why haven't they done that? This should be the only thing looked at.

Beat
Sep 11th, 2009, 02:54 PM
As a woman in general, it doesn't matter. As an athlete, however, it most certainly does.

absolutely. i just pointed this out from a gender topic view. it has nothing to do with sports. there, other things have to be taken into account.

brickhousesupporter
Sep 11th, 2009, 02:59 PM
I agree. Look at the chromosomes and be done with it.



And why haven't they done that? This should be the only thing looked at.

If there are testes present it is most obvious a Y chromosome is in there somewhere....

Bezz
Sep 11th, 2009, 03:10 PM
Some ppl are so caught up in there own little struggle they can't see the obvious.....She is not fully a woman so shouldnt be competing with women!.....if yu were a woman in her discipline you would be pissed if she was allowed to play in your sport.
To solve all the problems....she could just switch to the mens events.....but then maybe ppl would argue that they had an advantage over her.....she chose the womens events becuase she knows it would be easier and more likely to win....which she did by a mile....maybe they need an intersex category in athletics ;)

gentenaire
Sep 11th, 2009, 04:24 PM
i can guarantee you if this was some european or american woman under investigation, this wouldn't have been a discussion

Oh really? Can you?

drake3781
Sep 11th, 2009, 04:26 PM
Some ppl are so caught up in there own little struggle they can't see the obvious.....She is not fully a woman so shouldnt be competing with women!.....if yu were a woman in her discipline you would be pissed if she was allowed to play in your sport.
To solve all the problems....she could just switch to the mens events.....but then maybe ppl would argue that they had an advantage over her.....she chose the womens events becuase she knows it would be easier and more likely to win....which she did by a mile....maybe they need an intersex category in athletics ;)


ITA.

Wigglytuff
Sep 11th, 2009, 04:27 PM
they did not released sex-chromosome test results.
XX, XY, XXY or XYX........

no womb means no menstruation, no way parents have never been aware of that. :rolleyes:
female sex hormone is produced mainly by the ovaries. male sex hormone is produced mainly by the testis.

anyway, the gender of ID shows the social attribute of the person.

plenty of XX women have really bad period problems. extreme irregularities, one or twice a YEAR or less, and plus being an athlete means she is more likely to have period problems.

anyway, until the chromosome info is released i think it is REALLY unfair for people to say she is not a woman.

Beat
Sep 11th, 2009, 04:28 PM
she chose the womens events becuase she knows it would be easier and more likely to win.

that's rubbish. she was raised as a woman and in her mind - at least - she is one. she certainly didn't sit there and had a big masterplan that she could sneak into the women's event.

look at the chormosomes and be done with it? i think it's way more complicated than that. i just recently read jeffrey eugenides' "middlesex" and can recommend the book. one thing i learned was that there are many different kinds of "intersex", so it's not that easy to specify - that is exactly why it is called intersex.

Wigglytuff
Sep 11th, 2009, 04:32 PM
Some ppl are so caught up in there own little struggle they can't see the obvious.....She is not fully a woman so shouldnt be competing with women!.....if yu were a woman in her discipline you would be pissed if she was allowed to play in your sport.
To solve all the problems....she could just switch to the mens events.....but then maybe ppl would argue that they had an advantage over her.....she chose the womens events becuase she knows it would be easier and more likely to win....which she did by a mile....maybe they need an intersex category in athletics ;)


so are you saying that women who have survived cancer and hard hysterectomy should not be allowed to complete in womens sports?
i also dont see you going after all those male athletics in golf and other sports with B cup breasts? i dont see you saying that THEY should not be able to complete. or do you have a different stand for her than you do for others.

Wigglytuff
Sep 11th, 2009, 04:36 PM
I agree. Look at the chromosomes and be done with it.



And why haven't they done that? This should be the only thing looked at.


you know what i think. i think they DID look at the chromosomes but some people have a vendetta and they are finishing for other reasons to disqualify her because they are sore losers at best, racists at worst, but most likely something in between.

Joana
Sep 11th, 2009, 04:39 PM
This wouldn't be a problem if she was a librarian or an economist or whatever. But, she chose a profession where gender DOES matter, and very much. It sucks for her, but that's just the way it is.

mariahdg
Sep 11th, 2009, 04:42 PM
plenty of XX women have really bad period problems. extreme irregularities, one or twice a YEAR or less, and plus being an athlete means she is more likely to have period problems.

anyway, until the chromosome info is released i think it is REALLY unfair for people to say she is not a woman.

no womb => no period R
no period => no womb F

Bezz
Sep 11th, 2009, 04:49 PM
so are you saying that women who have survived cancer and hard hysterectomy should not be allowed to complete in womens sports?
i also dont see you going after all those male athletics in golf and other sports with B cup breasts? i dont see you saying that THEY should not be able to complete. or do you have a different stand for her than you do for others.

Actual women who were born with wombs and ovaries are a different story....semenya wasn't born with any..she was born with testicles....so she is infact a man more so than a woman....Her build and features are that of a man becuase of the lack of ovaries and a womb.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8250609.stm- i would give this a read. ;)

As for the overweight guys who have man boobs....they just need to drop a few pounds.;)
Wiggly ive noticed yu really are an irrational person sometimes.....yu make silly arguments in order to defend something yu know deep down is a legitmate concern :confused:

drake3781
Sep 11th, 2009, 04:52 PM
you know what i think. i think they DID look at the chromosomes but some people have a vendetta and they are finishing for other reasons to disqualify her because they are sore losers at best, racists at worst, but most likely something in between.


Look, calm down, you are right as far as her "womanhood" in social terms, if you please, and while there may be a few who would take that away from her, most would not. But as far as the separation in sport of athletes by what body they bring to the sport, this is a case where it does matter, and so obviously. Somewhere between sore loser and racist? Really you are wrong on this count and should reconsider before throwing these derogatory terms around.

gentenaire
Sep 11th, 2009, 04:57 PM
plenty of XX women have really bad period problems. extreme irregularities, one or twice a YEAR or less, and plus being an athlete means she is more likely to have period problems.

anyway, until the chromosome info is released i think it is REALLY unfair for people to say she is not a woman.

No matter the outcome, she is a woman.

That's not what's under discussion here.

The issue is about whether or not she has male organs that give her an unfair advantage over other women when she's competing.

Kart
Sep 11th, 2009, 05:00 PM
if she has two X chromosomes she is a woman. if not than she is not.
Well she could have two Xs and a Y. Where would you put her then ?

My opinion on this:

1. Sex and gender are not the same thing.

2. The easiest way to decide this is to karyotype her which they've almost certainly done already. However, there are more than just two chromosomal variations - there can be XX, XY, XXY, XXX etc - so you still need to define what you consider male and female.

The simplest way to define it IMHO is to say (for the purposes of competition) that anyone with a Y chromosome is a 'man,' anyone without is a 'woman.'

If this lady has a Y chromosome then she should not be able to compete further with the women. She should not, however, be stripped of any medals or anything else. You can't bring in retrospective laws with these kind of things - all this male/female discussion is not new. It should have been legislated for long ago.

It's such a shame this lady has had to be humiliated like this - totally unnecessary :(.

Incidentally, to those of you that are saying that her having a womb or having testicles defines her sex, it is not that easy. We all develop as females in utero until we're exposed to testosterone type hormones that give us male characteristics. The Y chromosome is responsible for this. However, there are some XY persons that are testosterone insensitive and hence will not develop male genitals etc and look like women even if, on the tests, they're technically men.

So it's far from clear cut.

Steffica Greles
Sep 11th, 2009, 05:14 PM
Well she could have two Xs and a Y. Where would you put her then ?

My opinion on this:

1. Sex and gender are not the same thing.

2. The easiest way to decide this is to karyotype her which they've almost certainly done already. However, there are more than just two chromosomal variations - there can be XX, XY, XXY, XXX etc - so you still need to define what you consider male and female.

The simplest way to define it IMHO is to say that anyone with a Y chromosome is a man, anyone without is a woman.

If this lady has a Y chromosome then she should not be able to compete further with the women. She should not, however, be stripped of any medals or anything else. You can't bring in retrospective laws with these kind of things - all this male/female discussion is not new. It should have been legislated for long ago.

It's such a shame this lady has had to be humiliated like this - totally unnecessary :(.

Incidentally, to those of you that are saying that her having a womb or having testicles defines her sex, it is not that easy. We all develop as females in utero until we're exposed to testosterone type hormones that give us male characteristics. The Y chromosome is responsible for this. However, there are some XY persons that are testosterone insensitive and hence will not develop male genitals etc and look like women even if, on the tests, they're technically men.

So it's far from clear cut.

:worship:

nevetssllim
Sep 11th, 2009, 05:22 PM
Some ppl are so caught up in there own little struggle they can't see the obvious.....She is not fully a woman so shouldnt be competing with women!.....if yu were a woman in her discipline you would be pissed if she was allowed to play in your sport.
To solve all the problems....she could just switch to the mens events.....but then maybe ppl would argue that they had an advantage over her.....she chose the womens events becuase she knows it would be easier and more likely to win....which she did by a mile....maybe they need an intersex category in athletics ;)

That's rubbish. Semenya competed in the women's 800m because she has been raised as a woman since her birth and has been competing against women all of her life. It's not like she deliberately cheated and entered the women's event with the knowledge she wasn't eligible (which is what that arrogant Michael Johnson idiot suggested).

Semenya competing against men will not 'solve all the problems' either. She 'only' has a PB of 1:55 and there is no way in hell she will be able to make a living running against men so this destroys her livelihood.

However, from what I understand, Semenya will be allowed to keep the gold medal because she did not voluntarily cheat, regardless of the definitive verdict.

gentenaire
Sep 11th, 2009, 05:28 PM
Well she could have two Xs and a Y. Where would you put her then ?

My opinion on this:

1. Sex and gender are not the same thing.

2. The easiest way to decide this is to karyotype her which they've almost certainly done already. However, there are more than just two chromosomal variations - there can be XX, XY, XXY, XXX etc - so you still need to define what you consider male and female.

The simplest way to define it IMHO is to say that anyone with a Y chromosome is a man, anyone without is a woman.

If this lady has a Y chromosome then she should not be able to compete further with the women. She should not, however, be stripped of any medals or anything else. You can't bring in retrospective laws with these kind of things - all this male/female discussion is not new. It should have been legislated for long ago.

It's such a shame this lady has had to be humiliated like this - totally unnecessary :(.

Incidentally, to those of you that are saying that her having a womb or having testicles defines her sex, it is not that easy. We all develop as females in utero until we're exposed to testosterone type hormones that give us male characteristics. The Y chromosome is responsible for this. However, there are some XY persons that are testosterone insensitive and hence will not develop male genitals etc and look like women even if, on the tests, they're technically men.

So it's far from clear cut.

I think it's quite clear that they've discovered she has male features, either XXY , male organs, etc. I presume that what they're currently trying to figure out in what way it's giving her an unfair advantage and if it can be treated.

In any case, the timing of it all has been terrible. They really should have been more diplomatic. But they were right in submitting her to these tests.

brickhousesupporter
Sep 11th, 2009, 05:29 PM
Well she could have two Xs and a Y. Where would you put her then ?

My opinion on this:

1. Sex and gender are not the same thing.

2. The easiest way to decide this is to karyotype her which they've almost certainly done already. However, there are more than just two chromosomal variations - there can be XX, XY, XXY, XXX etc - so you still need to define what you consider male and female.

The simplest way to define it IMHO is to say that anyone with a Y chromosome is a man, anyone without is a woman.

If this lady has a Y chromosome then she should not be able to compete further with the women. She should not, however, be stripped of any medals or anything else. You can't bring in retrospective laws with these kind of things - all this male/female discussion is not new. It should have been legislated for long ago.

It's such a shame this lady has had to be humiliated like this - totally unnecessary :(.

Incidentally, to those of you that are saying that her having a womb or having testicles defines her sex, it is not that easy. We all develop as females in utero until we're exposed to testosterone type hormones that give us male characteristics. The Y chromosome is responsible for this. However, there are some XY persons that are testosterone insensitive and hence will not develop male genitals etc and look like women even if, on the tests, they're technically men.

So it's far from clear cut.
you forgot XO but I won't hold it against you.:) ITA

drake3781
Sep 11th, 2009, 05:36 PM
That's rubbish. Semenya competed in the women's 800m because she has been raised as a woman since her birth and has been competing against women all of her life. It's not like she deliberately cheated and entered the women's event with the knowledge she wasn't eligible (which is what that arrogant Michael Johnson idiot suggested).

Semenya competing against men will not 'solve all the problems' either. She 'only' has a PB of 1:55 and there is no way in hell she will be able to make a living running against men so this destroys her livelihood.

However, from what I understand, Semenya will be allowed to keep the gold medal because she did not voluntarily cheat, regardless of the definitive verdict.

Not rubbish. Common sense test says that she would have known before competing that her times were well above the standards of the top women performers in the sport. Nobody comes onto the scene and blows away records like that, and doesn't ask herself why would that happen, and combined with the facts that she knows about her body, she had ample cause to discuss it with her family, coaches, and the sports authorities. That being said, surely she was pressured to enter these events.

Kart
Sep 11th, 2009, 05:36 PM
I think it's quite clear that they've discovered she has male features, either XXY , male organs, etc. I presume that what they're currently trying to figure out in what way it's giving her an unfair advantage and if it can be treated.

In any case, the timing of it all has been terrible. They really should have been more diplomatic. But they were right in submitting her to these tests.
I don't dispute the need for tests if there is doubt but it could definitely have been handled better and been predicted IMHO.

If she has a Y chromosome, she should not be allowed to compete further in women's athletics.

That does not make her a man by any means - despite the way the sensationalist media want to portray it. Her gender is female, it's just that her sex isn't ... and that is the only objective way to determine who is and isn't eligible to enter which competition.

Tennis Fool
Sep 11th, 2009, 05:37 PM
The simplest way to define it IMHO is to say (for the purposes of competition) that anyone with a Y chromosome is a 'man,' anyone without is a 'woman.'

This could still be potentially dicey. What if you were discovered intersex at birth but had the operation to be fully female? Would you still be banned from women's sports even if you have the Y chromosome?

I'm thinking of Sarah Gronert, who is currently racing up the ITF rankings... Should she be banned because she carries the Y-chromosome?

Kart
Sep 11th, 2009, 05:38 PM
you forgot XO but I won't hold it against you.:) ITA
Thank you ;).

Kart
Sep 11th, 2009, 05:44 PM
This could still be potentially dicey. What if you were discovered intersex at birth but had the operation to be fully female? Would you still be banned from women's sports even if you have the Y chromosome?

I'm thinking of Sarah Gronert, who is currently racing up the ITF rankings... Should she be banned because she carries the Y-chromosome?
Yes it is still problematic.

However, if Gronert were threatening for the no.1 ranking, there would be plenty of people claiming her Y chromosome gives her an unfair advatage because she has more hormones / whatever.

I don't see how you can argue that not to be true but I think it depends mainly on the people that are competing. If the women have no problem competing with her then let her play with them.

However, we all know how cut throat it is at the top - I doubt any of them would be particularly nice about it.

Remember Mauresmo - she's totally a woman but the women were still bitching about her. I think we'd see the same with Gronert if it gets to that stage, only worse.

The important point here is to be clear that these women / men are not being banned from competing - just that they have to choose to play on the other side. It's far from ideal but until we see an Intersex Tennis Association, it's inevitable IMHO.

Bezz
Sep 11th, 2009, 05:59 PM
That's rubbish. Semenya competed in the women's 800m because she has been raised as a woman since her birth and has been competing against women all of her life. It's not like she deliberately cheated and entered the women's event with the knowledge she wasn't eligible (which is what that arrogant Michael Johnson idiot suggested).

Semenya competing against men will not 'solve all the problems' either. She 'only' has a PB of 1:55 and there is no way in hell she will be able to make a living running against men so this destroys her livelihood.

However, from what I understand, Semenya will be allowed to keep the gold medal because she did not voluntarily cheat, regardless of the definitive verdict.
I am not saying this was a massive conspiracy put together by her family and the South african authorties.....i believe she is the innocent person in all this. What i dont believe is that either herself or family didnt know she wasnt like all the other girls or that the athletics body in south africa didnt ask any questions. These are the ppl at fault....not her. But since sport is the one domain where there is an obvious difference in the performance of men and women she should not be allowed to compete if her 'condition' (for want of a better word) gives her an unfair advantage over the other female athletes.

Wigglytuff
Sep 11th, 2009, 06:04 PM
Actual women who were born with wombs and ovaries are a different story....semenya wasn't born with any..she was born with testicles....so she is infact a man more so than a woman....Her build and features are that of a man becuase of the lack of ovaries and a womb.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8250609.stm- i would give this a read. ;)

As for the overweight guys who have man boobs....they just need to drop a few pounds.;)
Wiggly ive noticed yu really are an irrational person sometimes.....yu make silly arguments in order to defend something yu know deep down is a legitmate concern :confused:

you need to look up chromosomes what they are and how they work because you dont seem to understand that. if she has XX chromosomes she is a woman, even if she was born with a defect that left her without a womb.

Wigglytuff
Sep 11th, 2009, 06:10 PM
No matter the outcome, she is a woman.

That's not what's under discussion here.

The issue is about whether or not she has male organs that give her an unfair advantage over other women when she's competing.

you do know that both men and women make testosterone AND estrogen naturally and EVERY person makes them at a different level right?

if the argument is that she IS a woman but should be forced to compete as a man because she is faster than other women is um silly. at that rate we should not even have womens sports at all and just have all women who are faster than average compete as men. on its VERY face it is irrational to say that she IS woman but should be forces to compete otherwise because she is different from other women. NOT ONE of these athletes at this level are like other women. they are for whatever reason vastly different from other women, that is very reason they get to that level and they get medals.

the idea that she IS female but should not be able to complete as one is silly and makes no sense.

if she is genetically a woman she should be allowed to compete as one.

in truth i dont know what her genetic make up is. she could be XY, i take issue with the very idea that should could be XX, X, XXX and thus female and be forced to compete as a man. this is foolishness.

Wigglytuff
Sep 11th, 2009, 06:18 PM
Well she could have two Xs and a Y. Where would you put her then ?

My opinion on this:

1. Sex and gender are not the same thing.

2. The easiest way to decide this is to karyotype her which they've almost certainly done already. However, there are more than just two chromosomal variations - there can be XX, XY, XXY, XXX etc - so you still need to define what you consider male and female.

The simplest way to define it IMHO is to say (for the purposes of competition) that anyone with a Y chromosome is a 'man,' anyone without is a 'woman.'

If this lady has a Y chromosome then she should not be able to compete further with the women. She should not, however, be stripped of any medals or anything else. You can't bring in retrospective laws with these kind of things - all this male/female discussion is not new. It should have been legislated for long ago.

It's such a shame this lady has had to be humiliated like this - totally unnecessary :(.

Incidentally, to those of you that are saying that her having a womb or having testicles defines her sex, it is not that easy. We all develop as females in utero until we're exposed to testosterone type hormones that give us male characteristics. The Y chromosome is responsible for this. However, there are some XY persons that are testosterone insensitive and hence will not develop male genitals etc and look like women even if, on the tests, they're technically men.

So it's far from clear cut.

i agree completely. i think that i should have said it different. if she has a Y chromosome as you stated she should be considered male. so if she is XXY she would be male. i agree with you that stripping her of medals is wrong and should only be done if the person did something wrong or against the rules at the time they completed. if she didnt do anything wrong or against the rules then there should not even be talk about stripping her of her medals.

as i said before i think this idea that she doesnt have a womb makes her not a woman is silly and malicious, we are not talking about sexual characteristics primary, secondary or other. we are talking about the SEX not the sexual characteristics.

Tennis Fool
Sep 11th, 2009, 07:09 PM
Yes it is still problematic.

However, if Gronert were threatening for the no.1 ranking, there would be plenty of people claiming her Y chromosome gives her an unfair advatage because she has more hormones / whatever.

I don't see how you can argue that not to be true but I think it depends mainly on the people that are competing. If the women have no problem competing with her then let her play with them.

However, we all know how cut throat it is at the top - I doubt any of them would be particularly nice about it.


Well, it's already happened. She wasn't even in the Top 500 and was thinking of quitting in 2007 because she was getting beef from some Russian players.


(There's a length thready on it in GM, but the stupid search function won't pull it up for me.)



in truth i dont know what her genetic make up is. she could be XY, i take issue with the very idea that should could be XX, X, XXX and thus female and be forced to compete as a man. this is foolishness.

The problem with this is that males DON'T have XX chromosomes. If she is XX+Y I can see her being banned from men's tournaments for the same reason.

drake3781
Sep 11th, 2009, 07:14 PM
It is more than genetics. Hormones are produced by the organs. Testes produce male hormones which make "male" musculature. She has testes. Ovaries, which produce female hormones. She has no ovaries. For the purposes of sport, this is a male body. Let's KISS it here.

Destiny
Sep 11th, 2009, 07:37 PM
I hate this whole situation and it's out in public :o

~Cherry*Blossom~
Sep 11th, 2009, 07:59 PM
Not rubbish. Common sense test says that she would have known before competing that her times were well above the standards of the top women performers in the sport. Nobody comes onto the scene and blows away records like that, and doesn't ask herself why would that happen, and combined with the facts that she knows about her body, she had ample cause to discuss it with her family, coaches, and the sports authorities. That being said, surely she was pressured to enter these events.

LOL. Do you know anything about athletics and the 800m?

It was only a year ago another 18 year old girl from Kenya burst on the scene and set some of the fastest times ever by a woman. She ran faster races than Semenya, has a quicker PB than Semenya, won the Olympics last year and I believe was undefeated last year. That was Kenyan Pamela Jelimo. So Semenya's results can't be that shocking as this type of speed by an 18 year old girl was seen last year but in much more convincing fashion.

And if Jelimo didn't party it up and the end of last year and trained for this season Semenya probably wouldn't have won the gold and this wouldn't be as big a story as it is.

Bijoux0021
Sep 11th, 2009, 08:27 PM
Some ppl are so caught up in there own little struggle they can't see the obvious.....She is not fully a woman so shouldnt be competing with women!.....if yu were a woman in her discipline you would be pissed if she was allowed to play in your sport.
To solve all the problems....she could just switch to the mens events.....but then maybe ppl would argue that they had an advantage over her.....she chose the womens events becuase she knows it would be easier and more likely to win....which she did by a mile....maybe they need an intersex category in athletics ;)
This was/is not anybody's fault. She didn't choose the women's event in order to cheat. She was born with a female genitalia. And rightly so, she was raised as a girl. Obviously, no one knew she also has internal male sexual organs until those test results.

http://www.rr.com/sports/sports/article/9000/8887580/IAAF_to_release_Semenyas_test_results_in_November

gentenaire
Sep 11th, 2009, 08:30 PM
if the argument is that she IS a woman but should be forced to compete as a man because she is faster than other women is um silly.

It would be silly if someone actually used this argument. But this is not what people are saying.


if she is genetically a woman she should be allowed to compete as one.

Well du-uh!
This thread is about what if she's NOT genetically a woman, but a mix of male/female?

take issue with the very idea that should could be XX, X, XXX and thus female and be forced to compete as a man. this is foolishness.

Again, can you show me who uses this argument?

Dodoboy.
Sep 11th, 2009, 09:53 PM
That's sad!

davidmario
Sep 11th, 2009, 10:01 PM
Nor could Serena, or Mauresmo, or Navratilova.

We all have different testosterone levels, from what I understand. Genitalia is not the sole definition of gender, and a straight line between male and female cannot be drawn.

serena is very feminin, she has got some damn big boobs:lick:

Kart
Sep 11th, 2009, 11:26 PM
i agree completely. i think that i should have said it different. if she has a Y chromosome as you stated she should be considered male. so if she is XXY she would be male. i agree with you that stripping her of medals is wrong and should only be done if the person did something wrong or against the rules at the time they completed. if she didnt do anything wrong or against the rules then there should not even be talk about stripping her of her medals.

as i said before i think this idea that she doesnt have a womb makes her not a woman is silly and malicious, we are not talking about sexual characteristics primary, secondary or other. we are talking about the SEX not the sexual characteristics.

Agreed.

Wigglytuff
Sep 12th, 2009, 12:11 AM
It would be silly if someone actually used this argument. But this is not what people are saying.



Well du-uh!
This thread is about what if she's NOT genetically a woman, but a mix of male/female?



Again, can you show me who uses this argument?

but that is EXACTLY what was said.

No matter the outcome, she is a woman.

That's not what's under discussion here.

The issue is about whether or not she has male organs that give her an unfair advantage over other women when she's competing.

she is a woman but should not be able to compete as one? that is EXACTLY what you are saying (unless you misspoke when you said "No matter the outcome, she is a woman.") if she is a woman she should be able to compete as one. period.

if she is not a woman and has XXY or XY or something with a Y in it, than it is a different.

drake3781
Sep 12th, 2009, 12:56 AM
LOL. Do you know anything about athletics and the 800m?

It was only a year ago another 18 year old girl from Kenya burst on the scene and set some of the fastest times ever by a woman. She ran faster races than Semenya, has a quicker PB than Semenya, won the Olympics last year and I believe was undefeated last year. That was Kenyan Pamela Jelimo. So Semenya's results can't be that shocking as this type of speed by an 18 year old girl was seen last year but in much more convincing fashion.

And if Jelimo didn't party it up and the end of last year and trained for this season Semenya probably wouldn't have won the gold and this wouldn't be as big a story as it is.


Hardly do you need to LOL and claim that I know nothing, because there is a single rare case of something supposedly happening once already. :rolleyes: Rude and poor way to make your point. Any time somebody can come newly to a sport in which athletes have been setting down slowly decreasing times, and blow away these results, it is noteworthy to say the least. And the reason I mention it is that this is only part of what is/was going on with her to indicate that she and her family/coaches/national officials knew what was going on and did not get to the root of it. And now claim bias and other things. :rolleyes:

Frode
Sep 12th, 2009, 01:32 AM
Well, it's already happened. She wasn't even in the Top 500 and was thinking of quitting in 2007 because she was getting beef from some Russian players.


(There's a length thready on it in GM, but the stupid search function won't pull it up for me.)


That thread has been moved to the German forum:)

It's been merged with another and is now her cheering thread.

irma
Sep 12th, 2009, 05:55 AM
The problem is that if she is an intersex, and would be allowed to compete with the other women, everytime she would win (some) opponents would claim that it is unfair, because she has too much testosteron. But on the other hand it's also unfair to ban her, because she can't help to be born this way either.

It seems that she probably can't win in any case. That makes it a sad story imho!

gentenaire
Sep 12th, 2009, 06:55 AM
but that is EXACTLY what was said.



she is a woman but should not be able to compete as one? that is EXACTLY what you are saying (unless you misspoke when you said "No matter the outcome, she is a woman.") if she is a woman she should be able to compete as one. period.

if she is not a woman and has XXY or XY or something with a Y in it, than it is a different.

*headdesk*
How about reading what I wrote (this is like Harry Potter all over again)

Read what Kart wrote about gender and sex.
Socially, she's a woman!
But physically, she's a mix. And if she has a physical advantage over athletes because of that, she shouldn't be allowed to compete with other woman.

Do you feel someone who was born a man but underwent a sex operation to become a woman should be allowed to compete with women?

~Cherry*Blossom~
Sep 12th, 2009, 12:44 PM
Hardly do you need to LOL and claim that I know nothing, because there is a single rare case of something supposedly happening once already. :rolleyes: Rude and poor way to make your point. Any time somebody can come newly to a sport in which athletes have been setting down slowly decreasing times, and blow away these results, it is noteworthy to say the least. And the reason I mention it is that this is only part of what is/was going on with her to indicate that she and her family/coaches/national officials knew what was going on and did not get to the root of it. And now claim bias and other things. :rolleyes:

I just find it funny that someone gets on their high horse without even realising that only a year earlier we saw a newcomer do even faster times and better performances in their same event.

But as usual you always like to think you know something but when it comes done to it you know nothing! It's a common trend in your posts :kiss:

MyskinaManiac
Sep 12th, 2009, 01:05 PM
From what I've read, Semenya was raised as a female, however, many close to her have openly said that she prefered hanging with the 'boys'. That's not to say she is one, but i'll get back to that point.

Firstly, her levels of testerone are THREE times the avarage for a female. This for one is unfair for all the other athletes. To the other woman, it's as though another athlete is doping, winning and getting away with it (testosterone doping is of course banned, pretty clear).

Secondly, SA athletics knew about her case before she left to Berlin, however it has been shown recently that is was 'swept under the rug'... apparently the doctor involved is in hiding. SA athletics should be punished for this. Irregardless, it should have been addressed and a failure to do so should give way to punishment for SA athletics.

Thirdly, Semenya may be in a female event, although may not identify as a female. This brings up such issues as "am I competing in a female event despite feeling as though I am a male? Am I doing this because Im winning?" My previous comment in relation to her preferring to socialise with males relates to this, however it is of course not the basis of this point. She has the mannerisms, the appearence, the build, the voice and sadly the facial hair that liken her to a male. There is very little evidence to suggest she is a female despite her entering in a female athletics event and her family claiming she is female.

Basically, sadly Semenya is required to fit in one of either two categories "male" or "female".

Personally, I sadly think her athletics career is over. She should be compensated by SA athletics for the public humiliation she suffered and IAAF should let her keep her medal.

So Disrespectful
Sep 12th, 2009, 02:19 PM
I'm utterly disgusted by how this has been handled. The officials should have informed Caster alone of her test results and advised her as to whether competing in women's athletics would or would not be fair. From there she could decide on holding a press conference, or keeping quiet. This could absolutely ruin her, imagine finding out your 'gender' directly from the media along with the rest of the world.

Marshmallow
Sep 12th, 2009, 04:55 PM
LOL. Do you know anything about athletics and the 800m?

It was only a year ago another 18 year old girl from Kenya burst on the scene and set some of the fastest times ever by a woman. She ran faster races than Semenya, has a quicker PB than Semenya, won the Olympics last year and I believe was undefeated last year. That was Kenyan Pamela Jelimo. So Semenya's results can't be that shocking as this type of speed by an 18 year old girl was seen last year but in much more convincing fashion.

And if Jelimo didn't party it up and the end of last year and trained for this season Semenya probably wouldn't have won the gold and this wouldn't be as big a story as it is.

I was wondering what happened to Jelimo. She looked set to dominate the event after the Olympics. Then I see her looking as though she's passed out from a huge night of binge drinking after an early 800m heat. :o Would have been interesting to see Semenya race an in form Jelimo.

As for the thread on the whole, this is just such a disgrace. Semenya's not only been humiliated in a major way, her whole quality of life might take a hit from all this. Her Athletics career might be over, and what sort of life is she going to lead in her poor community, with everyone knowing her 'abnormality'. Absolutely horrible thing to happen as it has.

She ought to be compensated.

Wigglytuff
Sep 12th, 2009, 05:58 PM
*headdesk*
How about reading what I wrote (this is like Harry Potter all over again)
No matter the outcome, she is a woman.



i think YOU need to read what you wrote and ask yourself what you meant to say and then make any needed corrections. because YOU dont seem to understand what you said or what you meant to say.


Do you feel someone who was born a man but underwent a sex operation to become a woman should be allowed to compete with women?)

are you being retarded on purpose for the sake of a joke or are truly this dense. as i said before if she is XX, X, or otherwise not having a Y chromosome she is female if she has a Y she is a male. someone who is XY, XXY or otherwise has a Y and chose to change how they look and are seen, should NOT be allowed to compete as a female.

gentenaire
Sep 12th, 2009, 06:43 PM
are you being retarded on purpose for the sake of a joke or are truly this dense. as i said before if she is XX, X, or otherwise not having a Y chromosome she is female if she has a Y she is a male. someone who is XY, XXY or otherwise has a Y and chose to change how they look and are seen, should NOT be allowed to compete as a female.

So you consider XXY to be male?

If Caster turns out to be XXY, I'll still consider her female since that's how she's lived her entire life. But I don't think she should compete with other women.

Wigglytuff
Sep 12th, 2009, 06:54 PM
So you consider XXY to be male?

If Caster turns out to be XXY, I'll still consider her female since that's how she's lived her entire life. But I don't think she should compete with other women.

for the sake of competition if she is XXY i dont think she should compete with other women. she would be considered male.

MBM
Sep 12th, 2009, 06:59 PM
OK, I have pretty much NO knowledge on this (biology as well as Caster Semenya), except from reading what everyone else has wrote, so can someone tell me:

- Doesn't the presence of internal testes mean she must have a Y???
- If she has these internal testes removed (that is possible right??), will she become more feminine or is the effect of extra testosterone permanent?
- Will HRT help in anyway to make her "more feminine" if the ultimate decision is that she is "too masculine"to compete as a woman??

Frode
Sep 12th, 2009, 07:05 PM
Do you feel someone who was born a man but underwent a sex operation to become a woman should be allowed to compete with women?

That's actually happened at ITF level this year;)

gentenaire
Sep 12th, 2009, 07:08 PM
for the sake of competition if she is XXY i dont think she should compete with other women. she would be considered male.

Well then, you're pretty much saying what everyone else in this thread is saying. So why the attacks?

Diesel
Sep 12th, 2009, 07:14 PM
I'm utterly disgusted by how this has been handled. The officials should have informed Caster alone of her test results and advised her as to whether competing in women's athletics would or would not be fair. From there she could decide on holding a press conference, or keeping quiet. This could absolutely ruin her, imagine finding out your 'gender' directly from the media along with the rest of the world.

Horrible what's been done to her. How this could get out before it being told to her. Lawyers get a bad rap but reporters are no better.

ED fan forever
Sep 12th, 2009, 07:19 PM
I feel very sorry for this poor girl.
If she has the external genitalia of a woman then of course she is a woman by society's standards.
I do understand how her testosterone levels give her a decided advantage in athletics and I too unfortunately think her athletics career is over. But I think it is deplorable how she has been treated in the media and to have these very private matters about her published in newspapers around the world. The South African community have said they stand by her 100% and both regard and accept her as a woman. For her sake I hope this is true.

drake3781
Sep 12th, 2009, 07:25 PM
OK, I have pretty much NO knowledge on this (biology as well as Caster Semenya), except from reading what everyone else has wrote, so can someone tell me:

- Doesn't the presence of internal testes mean she must have a Y???
- If she has these internal testes removed (that is possible right??), will she become more feminine or is the effect of extra testosterone permanent?
- Will HRT help in anyway to make her "more feminine" if the ultimate decision is that she is "too masculine"to compete as a woman??


She looks like this. The body was developed with the testosterone making it a male's body. Nothing is going to change that.

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20090911/capt.68986da7ffba497ea1194a20061619b1.athletics_se menya_gender_test_th102.jpg?x=247&y=345&q=85&sig=GxzqdsltjBgiCzvFTnongg--

gentenaire
Sep 12th, 2009, 07:39 PM
I feel very sorry for this poor girl.
If she has the external genitalia of a woman then of course she is a woman by society's standards.
I do understand how her testosterone levels give her a decided advantage in athletics and I too unfortunately think her athletics career is over. But I think it is deplorable how she has been treated in the media and to have these very private matters about her published in newspapers around the world. The South African community have said they stand by her 100% and both regard and accept her as a woman. For her sake I hope this is true.

I agree. On the BBC website there's an interview with an Indian athlete who had the same thing happen to her. She too failed a gender test and was stripped of her medal. But in her case, it was only Asian games, not WC and by all accounts, they handled the whole case a lot better than in Semenya's case.
But I do feel that SA's athletics is partly to blame for the whole thing. They must have known or at least suspected something was up. They should have tested her and not send her to the WC like this.

Bijoux0021
Sep 19th, 2009, 04:58 PM
http://www.rr.com/news/topic/article/rr/9000/8950575/S Africa_track_chief_apologizes_for_runner_sex_test/1

SAfrica track chief apologizes for runner sex test

Published - Sep 19 2009 12:04PM EDT

By CELEAN JACOBSON - Associated Press Writer

South Africa's top track official apologized Saturday for denying knowledge of gender tests done on runner Caster Semenya in the country, saying he lied to protect her privacy.

Athletics South Africa president Leonard Chuene told reporters his constant denials of the tests, which he said he was aware of when they were done in early August, were an "error of judgment" and never meant to "deceive" the public.

South African officials repeatedly said tests were done on the 18-year-old runner only abroad, not in South Africa.

"I can no longer stand before you and say that I am not aware of gender tests conducted on Caster Semenya," Chuene said. "I felt that at the time I was acting in the best interests of Caster Semenya as a person. I believed at the time my consistent denials would help protect her."

Semenya won the 800-meter race at the world championships on Aug. 19 in Berlin in 1 minute, 55.45 seconds, finishing 2.45 seconds ahead of her closest competitor. It was the fastest time in the world this year.

The International Association of Athletics Federations ordered more tests done on the runner in Berlin, saying questions had been raised about her muscular physique and recent stunning improvement in times.

The IAAF has refused to confirm or deny Australian media reports that Semenya has both male and female characteristics, saying it is reviewing test results and will issue a decision in November on whether the athlete will be allowed to compete in women's events.

Chuene said tests had been done at a Pretoria hospital on Aug. 7 at the behest of the IAAF, adding that it was unclear whether Semenya was informed of the nature of the examinations.

Chuene said that despite medical advice and a request from the IAAF, he refused to withdraw Semenya from the race because there were no results yet from the tests.

"I was not going to stop her talent because of rumors," he said. "On what basis should I have withdrawn her? My only crime committed was to take a decision that she must run, and she won."

Chuene also accused the IAAF of violating her rights and privacy.

"The IAAF publicly revealed her name. The IAAF betrayed her. The IAAF has a lot to answer for," he said.

Chuene is returning to the IAAF board after he resigned over the handling of the matter, but Saturday's news conference is unlikely to ease tensions between the ASA and the international body.

The IAAF has said Semenya probably would keep her medal because she is not accused of cheating by trying to mask her gender.

On Saturday, Chuene repeated his claims that he saw no reason for Semenya to be tested and said he would not accept the outcome of results.

He said the ASA was not in possession of any test results and he could not confirm media reports about her gender.

Semenya, who has dropped out of sight, grew up in a poor village in northern South Africa. Her impressive performances in meets this year caught the attention of track officials.

Chuene denied that Semenya _ seen as the team's best chance for a gold medal _ had been "sacrificed for a medal."

He said he stays in contact with Semenya, a university student in Pretoria who is sitting for her final exams.

"It has been deeply disturbing for me to bear witness to the relentless and ongoing controversy surrounding Caster Semenya," he said. "Tell me someone who has not lied to protect a child."

Wigglytuff
Sep 19th, 2009, 06:11 PM
it looks like everyone around her screwed that girl over for one reason or another, i feel really bad for her.