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dsanders06
Sep 10th, 2009, 03:40 PM
I realise this issue has probably been touched upon many times on this forum previously, but I am genuinely curious as to people's thoughts.

Seriously, I can't see how anyone can logically say Serena is a better player than Henin was by the end of her career. I mean, Serena has not won a Slam when Henin wasn't in the draw since 2003, and in 2007, Serena simply had no idea how to beat Henin. I can see that Serena's serve is maybe a bit better than Henin's (Henin could almost match Serena in the top serve speed, but she typically had a low 1st serve %). But in terms of groundstrokes, they were at best equal, movement-wise Henin was infinitely better, and of course there was no contest in terms of finesse. I can see that maybe Serena remained generally the better player on grass, even if Henin won their last Wimbledon meeting, but on hard courts Serena was generally unable to beat a top-form Henin, and clay would never have been a contest.

I realise this is all moot in the wide scheme of things; personally, I don't think we'll ever see Henin come back, and even if she did, it's highly unlikely she'd ever return to her 2007 level again. But I'm still interested to hear people's thoughts.

Julian.
Sep 10th, 2009, 03:42 PM
I don't think Serena is better than Henin.

Sund7101
Sep 10th, 2009, 03:44 PM
Yes, more slams in singles and doubles and leads in their head-to-head 7-6.

SM
Sep 10th, 2009, 03:45 PM
Henin has retired, so can we keep these comparisons with only active players?? What next , compare Serena with Suzanne Lenglen??

good points nonetheless.

tennnisfannn
Sep 10th, 2009, 03:45 PM
if yiu think Justine is better than serena you are delusional.

DOUBLEFIST
Sep 10th, 2009, 03:47 PM
I realise this issue has probably been touched upon many times on this forum...

Stop right there. Turn around. Go back.

Volcana
Sep 10th, 2009, 03:48 PM
I realise this issue has probably been touched upon many times on this forum previously, but I am genuinely curious as to people's thoughts.

Seriously, I can't see how anyone can logically say Serena is a better player than Henin was by the end of her career.Consider that it is far likelier that the limitation lies with you, rather than others. YOU can't see it. Fine. But 11 slam singles titles > 7 slam singles titles is a difficult arguement to overcome.

As for your other arguements, your problem is that you're trying to relegate the arguement to a narrow period in the careers of two players of roughly equal age. If I narrow the arguement to 2002-3, Henin had already made a lam final by then, but who was having better results? Or, to take two other players, who was better in 2006? Elena Dementieva or Venus Williams?

Had your statement been, 'there was a period in Justine Henin's career when she was better than Serena' I would have to agree. This is also true of Venus, Jennifer Capriati,Martina Hingis and Amelie Mauresmo. They all had periods, lasting a year or more, than they were better than Serena. AFTER Serena won her first slam. The difference with Henin is that when she saw she wans't going to be the best anymore, she retired.

Serena has persevered through every period of somebody else seeming better for a while. And look who's on top now.

NOTE: movement-wise Henin was infinitely better,I could as easily change that statement to 'Serena was infinitely better'.NOTE: in 2007, Serena simply had no idea how to beat HeninIn 2008, she beat Henin 6-2 6-0, possibly contributing to Henin decision to retire instead of finding her game again.

Miss Atomic Bomb
Sep 10th, 2009, 03:49 PM
Peak Serena will def. peak henin 6-1 6-1

Flawless
Sep 10th, 2009, 03:49 PM
Of course Serena is better than Henin. Serena is one of the greatest tennis players of all time. You should be comparing Henin to Venus NOT Serena

shell
Sep 10th, 2009, 03:50 PM
If you do a search, there are tons of threads on this. One of the more recent ones that I remember was regarding "who has more talent" between the two. You will find it similar to this one.

Personally, I agree with you.

hdfb
Sep 10th, 2009, 03:50 PM
If Henin didn't retire, the Henin vs Serena rivalry and competition to be best of this generation would have been what this generation'd be remembered for.

2Black
Sep 10th, 2009, 03:51 PM
Yes Yes & Yes - Serena is better than Henin.

I still say, Henin would not have won the US Open in 2003 had the Williams sisters played. They owned her at that point. This would've continued to deflate her confidence when playing them.

But it's all a mute point. Serena has 11 slams and leads the H2H.

PEACE

shell
Sep 10th, 2009, 03:54 PM
Peak Serena will def. peak henin 6-1 6-1

Maybe, if Justine does indeed come back, we can start the non-peak vs. non-peak rivalry :devil:

Dawson.
Sep 10th, 2009, 03:55 PM
Justine was consistently and technically a better player. Her average is much better than Serena’s average. However, Serena at 100% (ie. AO 07) is unplayable. So I guess it’s all down to interpretation. By better player, do you mean whilst both at their best or consistency?

And yes, this topic has been done to death and this thread will turn into all out war later on as always :yawn:

kiwifan
Sep 10th, 2009, 03:55 PM
All the objective evidence points in the direction of Serena...

...including the last time they played, who's ass was kicked?

Almost every time Henin scored a major victory over Serena the next time they played Serena set the record straight (usually a Henin win on Clay followed by a Serena win on another surface).

Henin on Clay...that's the qualifier, but I'd take Serena tomorrow, next week, next year or in 2012 against Henin.

VeeReeDavJCap81
Sep 10th, 2009, 03:55 PM
It's hard to say who is/was better because they were at their peaks 5 years apart. Too bad they couyldn't have peaked at the same exact time.

kiwifan
Sep 10th, 2009, 03:59 PM
Peak Serena will def. peak henin 6-1 6-1

Come on, Peak Serena deserves a bagel - just like the last time she played "non-Peak Serena"...

...score it 6-2, 6-0 for Serena!!! :lol:

FYI - this is a silly thread, Henin is gone so let her rest in peace.

Serena has to focus on "other Bell-Gims" these days. :cool:

dsanders06
Sep 10th, 2009, 04:00 PM
Consider that it is far likelier that the limitation lies with you, rather than others. YOU can't see it. Fine. But 11 slam singles titles > 7 slam singles titles is a difficult arguement to overcome.

It was 8 to 7 when Henin retired.

And do you really think Serena has improved since 2007? Which areas of her game are better? I don't see any improvements at all: I think she's still playing at a high level, but a level that is nevertheless not good enough to beat an in-form Henin.

In what ways do you consider Serena to be technically a better player?

tea
Sep 10th, 2009, 04:00 PM
Please let me know if this thread changes one's opinion in the end.:)

youizahoe
Sep 10th, 2009, 04:03 PM
We never saw a peak Henin vs Peak Serena match yet, so I can't judge. Miami came closest to Serena peak, but then again people will say Henin was shit, but the point is Henin was shit because Serena pushed her behind the baseline.

If Serena manages to move better and hit a bit less errors, she'll never lose again to Henin.

AcesHigh
Sep 10th, 2009, 04:04 PM
Yes. Serena is playing. Henin isn't. Next

spartanfan
Sep 10th, 2009, 04:06 PM
The answer is obvious. Serena is head and shoulders ABOVE Justine. As someone stated earlier Justine should be compared to Venus or even Martina Hingis, but not Serena. I can see why you would want to elevate the legacy of Justines career, but she flamed out and lost out.
Consider this Serena is the ONLY ACTIVE PLAYER on tour - mens or womens- who has held ALL FOUR GRAND SLAMS AT THE SAME TIME. What's the most that Justine ever held at once? Hell even at Justines peak as a player she could never WIN WIMBLEDON. SERENA HELD ALL FOUR MAJORS AT ONCE. Even the GOAT Roger Federer hasn't done that. This argument is really silly when you look at their accomplishments objectively.

spartanfan
Sep 10th, 2009, 04:09 PM
Justine never won Wimbledon. Serena has won all the slams, Justine hasn't. Even at her very best Justine couldn't win Wimbledon. Serena has won all the single and double Grand Slams and two mixed double GS titles. Justine - not even close.
And I forgot to mention: SERENA HELD ALL FOUR GRAND SLAMS AT THE SAME TIME! Justine couldn't win Wimbledon. Case closed.

dsanders06
Sep 10th, 2009, 04:10 PM
The answer is obvious. Serena is head and shoulders ABOVE Justine. As someone stated earlier Justine should be compared to Venus or even Martina Hingis, but not Serena. I can see why you would want to elevate the legacy of Justines career, but she flamed out and lost out.
Consider this Serena is the ONLY ACTIVE PLAYER on tour - mens or womens- who has held ALL FOUR GRAND SLAMS AT THE SAME TIME. What's the most that Justine ever held at once? Hell even at Justines peak as a player she could never WIN WIMBLEDON. SERENA HELD ALL FOUR MAJORS AT ONCE. Even the GOAT Roger Federer hasn't done that. This argument is really silly when you look at their accomplishments objectively.
I'm not even an Henin fan. Neither her nor Serena are among my favourites, although I appreciate both are great players, and far and away the two best players of the decade. I'm just giving my objective opinion. And Henin may have never won Wimbledon, but no-one could seriously claim that Serena was a better player on clay than Henin was on grass.

Matt01
Sep 10th, 2009, 04:15 PM
:timebomb:

spartanfan
Sep 10th, 2009, 04:16 PM
I'm not even an Henin fan. Neither her nor Serena are among my favourites, although I appreciate both are great players, and far and away the two best players of the decade. I'm just giving my objective opinion. And Henin may have never won Wimbledon, but no-one could seriously claim that Serena was a better player on clay than Henin was on grass.
If Henin were the greater player she would have found a way to Wimbledon. She didn't. Even on her worse surface Serena still managed to win the French Open. How could you even consider her greater than Serena when she, Henin, couldn't win Wimbledon - even when she was #1 and at her so-called peak. Your assertion is laughable and not based on facts or player accomplishment.:lol: If you love Henin, so what. Love her with all your heart, but she's just not a better player than Serena. Oh, did I mention that Serena held all FOUR GRAND SLAM TITLES AT THE SAME TIME? Did Henin accomplish this? Nope, she didn't. She couldn't, even at her all time best Henin couldn't win Wimbledon. At Serena's best she won all Four GS titles- in a row.

Polikarpov
Sep 10th, 2009, 04:17 PM
I think Henin has a better game overall, but Serena was/is a better match player.

Groenefelder25
Sep 10th, 2009, 04:18 PM
i think Serena was better than Justine at one point and then Justine was better than Serena at another point.

Cookie Power
Sep 10th, 2009, 04:19 PM
Henin on clay.

Serena everywhere else.

rockstar
Sep 10th, 2009, 04:20 PM
kk discussion should stop now or things will get messy

dsanders06
Sep 10th, 2009, 04:23 PM
If Henin were the greater player she would have found a way to Wimbledon. She didn't. Even on her worse surface Serena still managed to win the French Open. How could you even consider her greater than Serena when she, Henin, couldn't win Wimbledon - even when she was #1 and at her so-called peak. Your assertion is laughable and not based on facts or player accomplishment.:lol: If you love Henin, so what. Love her with all your heart, but she's just not a better player than Serena. Oh, did I mention that Serena held all FOUR GRAND SLAM TITLES AT THE SAME TIME? Did Henin accomplish this? Nope, she didn't. She couldn't, even at her all time best Henin couldn't win Wimbledon. At Serena's best she won all Four GS titles- in a row.

Why do you seem to think the world is divided into Serena fans and Serena haters? I stated explicitly in that post that I'm not an Henin fan, and that I have a lot of respect for both players (even if Serena's sportsmanship leaves a lot to be desired).

And my entire point is that, had Henin not lost motivation at the end of 2007 and kept playing, she would have won Wimbledon one day as part of her domination, based on the fact she was cleaning up at the Slams and that Serena was clueless on how to beat her.

Volcana
Sep 10th, 2009, 04:28 PM
It was 8 to 7 when Henin retired.Forgive me, but, so what? When Henin retired is just a point in time. Would Henin have maintained that level of play? SHE didn't think so, and her results certainly didn't look like she would. The last set they ever played Serena bageled Henin.In what ways do you consider Serena to be technically a better player?Serve. Higher percentage on first, bette variety and much better second. Angled forehand winners. Forehand velocity.

Hard to compare backhands, since they were completely dissimilar. Serena's went faster, but then, double handed backhands tend to do that. Henin could produce way more sin but then, single handed backhands tend to do that.

To reverse things, the two areas where I see Henin as technically better were volleys, Serena has very avergae volleys, and backhand slice.

But this is an argument that, were I to change the names fro any other two players, within three years of each in age, where there was a four slam singles title differenc, would be laughed out of the building. Look Navratilova. She was not a better SINGLES player than Graf. Davenport was not a better singles player than Venus. You're talking about an entire Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario with of slam singles titles.

Forget the trees. Look at the forest.

Valanga
Sep 10th, 2009, 04:29 PM
Although Henin would have more slams if not the sudden retirement last year, as a non-fans of both serena and justine. Serena is a better hands down. Look at the doubles.

Apoleb
Sep 10th, 2009, 04:31 PM
Almost every time Henin scored a major victory over Serena the next time they played Serena set the record straight (usually a Henin win on Clay followed by a Serena win on another surface).

Henin on Clay...that's the qualifier, but I'd take Serena tomorrow, next week, next year or in 2012 against Henin.

Errr....

Three consecutive victories on three different surfaces in Grand Slams including a major kickass on home ground with a breadstick. Followed by a kickass of her sister.

Justine 2006 - on > Serena 2006 - on. And it's Serena who needs to set the track right. Justine in 2008 was losing to everyone, and she's already retired in my mind.

dsanders06
Sep 10th, 2009, 04:34 PM
Forgive me, but, so what? When Henin retired is just a point in time. Would Henin have maintained that level of play? SHE didn't think so, and her results certainly didn't look like she would. The last set they ever played Serena bageled Henin.

Both these points are two of the biggest hypocrisies that come from Serena fans (and note, I'm not saying you are necessarily a Serena fan). Many say that she should be considered among the GOAT debate; when people point out she has far less Slams than Graf, Navratilova, Evert, they say that Slam totals aren't as important, and that it just matters who is the best on any given day. So then, in this particular debate, why should Serena having more Slams then Henin be the be-all and end-all?

And as for Serena bagelling Henin - as Serena fans are so quick to point out, it's the Slams that matter. Therefore, surely Henin's 3 wins in Slams in 2007 are far more important than Serena's win in Miami?

spartanfan
Sep 10th, 2009, 04:34 PM
Why do you seem to think the world is divided into Serena fans and Serena haters? I stated explicitly in that post that I'm not an Henin fan, and that I have a lot of respect for both players (even if Serena's sportsmanship leaves a lot to be desired).

And my entire point is that, had Henin not lost motivation at the end of 2007 and kept playing, she would have won Wimbledon one day as part of her domination, based on the fact she was cleaning up at the Slams and that Serena was clueless on how to beat her.
Now you motive has been revealed. And yet you made no mention of Justine's lack of sportsmanship at the 03 French Open where she cheated and lied and the entire world saw her do it. Unbiased my ass. If you hate Serena, fine you hate Serena. No big deal, this site if full of Serena haters and bashers. She's still the best and better player than Justine.
And could of, would of, should of..if Henin was all that she would have won Wimbledon. But at Justine's absolute best she COULDN"T win WIMBLEDON. She's not even Serena's equal on the subject on who's the better player, much less better than Serena. And it's obvious you either didn't watch Serena's and Justine's last match against each other in Miami or you just chose to black it all out like I'm sure Justine has.:lol:

spartanfan
Sep 10th, 2009, 04:39 PM
Both these points are two of the biggest hypocrisies that come from Serena fans (and note, I'm not saying you are necessarily a Serena fan). Many say that she should be considered among the GOAT debate; when people point out she has far less Slams than Graf, Navratilova, Evert, they say that Slam totals aren't as important, and that it just matters who is the best on any given day. So then, in this particular debate, why should Serena having more Slams then Henin be the be-all and end-all?

And as for Serena bagelling Henin - as Serena fans are so quick to point out, it's the Slams that matter. Therefore, surely Henin's 3 wins in Slams in 2007 are far more important than Serena's win in Miami?
Billy Jean King has 12 Grand Slam singles titles and she's one of the faces of tennis and held to be one of the tennis greats. Serena has 11 GS titles and hopefully on Saturday will win her 12th. How can you not consider her amoung the elite greats of the sport. Only true bias and hatered would keep you or anyone from admitting that fact of truth.

Apoleb
Sep 10th, 2009, 04:40 PM
As for the question, define "better."

If it's purely in terms of who'll come out the winner, then I'd give an edge to Serena. Even though the tables were turned in the latter stage of the career.

However, the major reason why I think it goes out that way is the difference in physique. It's like a heavyweight in a battle against a lightweight. We know that tall and big gets a huge advantage in today's tennis. So just for hanging in, Justine already receives tons of credit. Whether that means her "tennis" is better becomes open to debate. I certainly tend to think her stroke dynamics are more impressive and her brand of tennis is more enjoyable.

V's a star
Sep 10th, 2009, 04:42 PM
people dont think she is......... its a fact

bandabou
Sep 10th, 2009, 04:43 PM
Look at their distibution 1402 for Juju.. 4133 for Serena. That's it...only surface Juju is better is clay and she wins there. Everywhere else, peak Serena beats peak Juju.

Serena just most dominating.

The Daviator
Sep 10th, 2009, 04:45 PM
Serena has the bare facts on her side, more majors and a lead in the H2H, plus wins over Henin on all surfaces.

Olórin
Sep 10th, 2009, 04:46 PM
Nearly everyone, knows that Serena is a better tennis player than Henin.

There's not even a serious debate. There never was except from the end of 2007, while Henin was dominant, until she retired as an inferior player.

mboyle
Sep 10th, 2009, 04:46 PM
Serena Williams would not have blown a 6-0; 5-3 lead in the Wimbledon semi-finals to Marion freakin Bartoli. Justine may have had (slightly) better strokes overall, but Serena's mind was just on a different level.

The Daviator
Sep 10th, 2009, 04:48 PM
As for the question, define "better."

If it's purely in terms of who'll come out the winner, then I'd give an edge to Serena. Even though the tables were turned in the latter stage of the career.

However, the major reason why I think it goes out that way is the difference in physique. It's like a heavyweight in a battle against a lightweight. We know that tall and big gets a huge advantage in today's tennis. So just for hanging in, Justine already receives tons of credit. Whether that means her "tennis" is better becomes open to debate. I certainly tend to think her stroke dynamics are more impressive and her brand of tennis is more enjoyable.

Henin didn't seem to have much trouble with other 'tall and big' players like Davenport, Sharapova and Ivanovic. Serena's tennis was Henin's problem.

Apoleb
Sep 10th, 2009, 04:49 PM
Nearly everyone, knows that Serena is a better tennis player than Henin.

There's not even a serious debate. There never was except from the end of 2007, while Henin was dominant, until she retired as an inferior player.

"Pound for pound, Henin is the best player of her generation" - Billie Jean King

bandabou
Sep 10th, 2009, 04:49 PM
And my entire point is that, had Henin not lost motivation at the end of 2007 and kept playing, she would have won Wimbledon one day as part of her domination, based on the fact she was cleaning up at the Slams and that Serena was clueless on how to beat her.


Really? She can't even beat Bartoli on grass...so you think she'd beat either Vee in '08 or Serena this year on grass?!

Apoleb
Sep 10th, 2009, 04:53 PM
Henin didn't seem to have much trouble with other 'tall and big' players like Davenport, Sharapova and Ivanovic. Serena's tennis was Henin's problem.

She did have tons of trouble against both Sharapova and Davenport. Only later did she turn the tables against Davenport. As for Sharapova, she does lead comfortably the h2h, but she lost to her a GS final in 2006. That's besides the point anyway. Tall having an advantage does not mean she'd lose to all tall players. Tall players also come with a different set of skills, and no doubt Serena has tons of them. But they get a very big automatic advantage everytime they step on the court, simply because of their height.

Olórin
Sep 10th, 2009, 04:53 PM
"Pound for pound, Henin is the best player of her generation" - Billie Jean King

Yes, shame you have no points of your own. As you say, BJK knows Serena is the best player, otherwise why would she have given Henin that backhanded compliment. :shrug:

As other people have said, let's not debate the obvious.
This isn't an Evert/Navratilova debate, it's a Graf/Seles back and forth. We know who comes out on top.

Apoleb
Sep 10th, 2009, 04:55 PM
As you say, BJK knows Serena is the best player, otherwise why would she have given Henin that backhanded compliment. :shrug:

As other people have said, let's not debate the obvious.
This isn't an Evert/Navratilova debate, it's a Graf/Seles back and forth. We know who comes out on top.

Yeah right. :lol:Like BJK had a gun in her head and was forced to mention that JH was the best player in her generation. She obviously sees a thing or two in tennis that you don't, unsurprisingly.

2Black
Sep 10th, 2009, 04:59 PM
"Pound for pound, Henin is the best player of her generation" - Billie Jean King

Text without context is pretext!!!

I could also quote where Billie Jean King has said Serena Williams is "one of the best players of all time"

Context people! Context people!! Context people!!!

Olórin
Sep 10th, 2009, 04:59 PM
Yeah right. :lol:Like BJK had a gun in her head and was forced to mention that JH was the best player in her generation. She obviously sees a thing or two in tennis that you don't, unsurprisingly.

Yes let's make this about me vs BJK. Again, compensating for your weak arguments with over the top analogies. She was forced to comment on Henin's retirement, she was asked what she thought about it, she imo gave her a backhanded compliment. She was word number one and embarrassing the sport by retiring as such. She was drawing attention the fact that Henin was a fragile player. Unlike say Serena Williams, Margaret Court or, guess who? BJK, world renowned athletes known for their strength and power.

Vaidisova Ruled
Sep 10th, 2009, 05:00 PM
NOTE: In 2008, she beat Henin 6-2 6-0, possibly contributing to Henin decision to retire instead of finding her game again.
I don't think that Henin is better than Serena at all. But what you wrote is totally wrong. Henin didn't retire because she lost 62 60 against Serena or 64 60 against maria. That has nothing to do with that.

matty
Sep 10th, 2009, 05:01 PM
Well, since I think GS Titles are very important, I would say she's had a more prolific career, so far.

bandabou
Sep 10th, 2009, 05:05 PM
Yeah pound for pound mayweather is better than Ali too, but he's still getting his ass kicked if he is foolish enough to fight Ali.

shell
Sep 10th, 2009, 05:07 PM
Ahhhh, just like old times. :)

spartanfan
Sep 10th, 2009, 05:08 PM
Where is Justine Wimbledon title(s)?

Matt01
Sep 10th, 2009, 05:11 PM
Serena Williams would not have blown a 6-0; 5-3 lead in the Wimbledon semi-finals to Marion freakin Bartoli. Justine may have had (slightly) better strokes overall, but Serena's mind was just on a different level.


Bullshit. Justine is mentally one of the best and strongest player the tour as ever seen (Serena, too, by the way).

And Justine never blew a 6-0,5-3 lead either, I don't know which match you were watching.

Matt01
Sep 10th, 2009, 05:12 PM
Where is Justine Wimbledon title(s)?


Where is your brain?

MBM
Sep 10th, 2009, 05:14 PM
I realise this issue has probably been touched upon many times on this forum previously, but I am genuinely curious as to people's thoughts.

Seriously, I can't see how anyone can logically say Serena is a better player than Henin was by the end of her career. I mean, Serena has not won a Slam when Henin wasn't in the draw since 2003, and in 2007, Serena simply had no idea how to beat Henin. I can see that Serena's serve is maybe a bit better than Henin's (Henin could almost match Serena in the top serve speed, but she typically had a low 1st serve %). But in terms of groundstrokes, they were at best equal, movement-wise Henin was infinitely better, and of course there was no contest in terms of finesse. I can see that maybe Serena remained generally the better player on grass, even if Henin won their last Wimbledon meeting, but on hard courts Serena was generally unable to beat a top-form Henin, and clay would never have been a contest.

I realise this is all moot in the wide scheme of things; personally, I don't think we'll ever see Henin come back, and even if she did, it's highly unlikely she'd ever return to her 2007 level again. But I'm still interested to hear people's thoughts.

Peak Serena will def. peak henin 6-1 6-1

This is as simple as it gets. You are comparing PEAK Justine to 2007 Serena, who was far from peak Serena. Even as a fan of Serena, I like to pretend that, apart from the AO, 2007 NEVER happened!! I haven't rewatched a single match aside from SEOpen final from the rest of the year since.

Sure, Justine was the better clay-courter, but Serena could and did beat/push her on this surface (2002 Justine wasn't too shabby and Serena beat her in Rome and took her to 3 sets at RG in 03 (the second best Justine we saw).

Maybe the score wouldn't have been 1 and 1, but reetard is right that peak Serena would have beaten peak Justine 4 times in 5 (that 1 time would have been on clay)

And to acknowledge the sentence I put in bold... Justine NEVER beat an in-form Serena on hard. (H2H on hard was 4-1 to Serena, the 1 was at the US Open in 2007...NOT an in form Serena)

MBM
Sep 10th, 2009, 05:17 PM
I don't think that Henin is better than Serena at all. But what you wrote is totally wrong. Henin didn't retire because she lost 62 60 against Serena or 64 60 against maria. That has nothing to do with that.

From what Justine said, it had a lot to do with when she BEAT Maria in the SEC. This match and that match with Dinara were the two she specifically picked out.

frenchie
Sep 10th, 2009, 05:34 PM
Serena is soooo much better than Henin it's even laughable

just another league

Pengwin
Sep 10th, 2009, 05:37 PM
Serena is a gajillion times better.

Uranium
Sep 10th, 2009, 05:38 PM
Yes.

vml
Sep 10th, 2009, 05:39 PM
OMG ! Here we go again but nonetheless, i'm gonna try to convice a few people that Serena is better than Justine ! First of all she's won more slams than the Belgian 7 v 11. By the time Justine retired, Serena had won more slams than Justine. More over Justine has won 4 of her 7 slam titles at the French Open ! Serena is way more eclectic when it comes to her Grand slam titles ! Plus Serena leads their H2H ! MOST OF ALL, Justine has never won Wimbledon !

MrSerenaWilliams
Sep 10th, 2009, 05:42 PM
Bullshit. Justine is mentally one of the best and strongest player the tour as ever seen (Serena, too, by the way).

And Justine never blew a 6-0,5-3 lead either, I don't know which match you were watching.

what was the lead, then?

DOUBLEFIST
Sep 10th, 2009, 05:43 PM
Generational greatness must be seen through the filter of generational LONGEVITY.

The Queater doesn't play anymore. The Queater quit.

Perhaps, if she hadn't quit and ran up her slam totals to 9 or 10 an argument could be made(provided she'd won a Wimby). But the fact is she QUIT late in the race, so it's not even a PLAUSIBLY debatable issue. She obviously never held all four slams at the same time nor does she have a career slam.

RenaSlam.
Sep 10th, 2009, 05:46 PM
Generational greatness must be seen through the filter of generational LONGEVITY.

The Queater doesn't play anymore. The Queater quit.

Perhaps, if she hadn't quit and ran up her slam totals to 9 or 10 an argument could be made(provided she'd won a Wimby). But the fact is she QUIT late in the race, so it's not even a PLAUSIBLY debatable issue. She obviously never held all four slams at the same time nor does she have a career slam.

Queater :lol: :dead:

Serenita
Sep 10th, 2009, 06:02 PM
Yes

spartanfan
Sep 10th, 2009, 06:02 PM
Where is your brain?
Where is yours?:lol: Oops, that's right, you're probably sitting on it.:lol: Or stroking it with lotion.:lol:

Kworb
Sep 10th, 2009, 06:04 PM
Henin is better in all areas except serve. Serena's GOAT serve makes her better than Henin.

frenchie
Sep 10th, 2009, 06:06 PM
short term memory anyone??

Serena in 2002 2003 was simply unplayable including for Venus and Henin!
Most of you were just not watching tennis at that time

spartanfan
Sep 10th, 2009, 06:09 PM
short term memory anyone??

Serena in 2002 2003 was simply unplayable including for Venus and Henin!
Most of you were just not watching tennis at that time
I was watching. And I'll go back to one of my earlier points that the Henin fans and supporters have failed to answer: If Henin is all that and a greater player than Serena, than why at her all-time peak and domination:lol: did Henin fail to win Wimbledon?:lol: Serena at her peak, not only won on her worse surface at the French, but she then went on to win Wimbledon, the US Open and the Australian Open and held them all at the same time. Henin, can't say she ever did any of this.

Pengwin
Sep 10th, 2009, 06:19 PM
Henin is better in all areas except serve. Serena's GOAT serve makes her better than Henin.


Let's be serious for a second:

Forehand: Serena - more power, better angles, especially compared to early Henin, whose forhand sucked

Backhand: Serena - more power, dominates better. Less variety but Serena has a great slice as well, very reliable. Justine's can break down, and was worse in the later stage of her career.

Serve: Serena is goat

Volleys: Justine

Movement: Both great. Serena is better at turning defence into attack

Mental: Serena

Cheat factor: Serena doesn't cheat.

MaBaker
Sep 10th, 2009, 06:19 PM
Text without context is pretext!!!

I could also quote where Billie Jean King has said Serena Williams is "one of the best players of all time"

Context people! Context people!! Context people!!!
Context ?

supergrunt
Sep 10th, 2009, 06:25 PM
Henin moved and volleyed better than Serena... but everything else is all Serena.

G1Player2
Sep 10th, 2009, 06:25 PM
As for the question, define "better."

If it's purely in terms of who'll come out the winner, then I'd give an edge to Serena. Even though the tables were turned in the latter stage of the career.

However, the major reason why I think it goes out that way is the difference in physique. It's like a heavyweight in a battle against a lightweight. We know that tall and big gets a huge advantage in today's tennis. So just for hanging in, Justine already receives tons of credit. Whether that means her "tennis" is better becomes open to debate. I certainly tend to think her stroke dynamics are more impressive and her brand of tennis is more enjoyable.


Justine barely beat a one handed Serena at Wimbledon in 2007. Serena could not hit a backhand and sliced everything back. That injury took her out that entire summer and she did not play another match UNTIL the US Open. Justine won fair and square, but Justine fans and Serena haters are very delusional if they are taking those wins as a barometer of their rivalry. Serena would have won that Wimbledon match easily if not for the thumb and ankle injuries she sustained in that Hantuchova match.

gmokb
Sep 10th, 2009, 06:34 PM
I think the question is really do people seriously think Henin is a better player than Serena?

ED fan forever
Sep 10th, 2009, 06:39 PM
Both of them combined are nothing compared to the one and only Dementieva.
If i had to pick between the 2 of them.....I would still only pick Elena.

Seriously though, in 2007 Justine was unplayable. If she was still playing who knows how many more grand slams she'd have by now. But she's not so no point trying to guess.

Donny
Sep 10th, 2009, 06:39 PM
Yeah pound for pound mayweather is better than Ali too, but he's still getting his ass kicked if he is foolish enough to fight Ali.
Troof.

Donny
Sep 10th, 2009, 06:40 PM
Both of them combined are nothing compared to the one and only Dementieva.
If i had to pick between the 2 of them.....I would still only pick Elena.

Seriously though, in 2007 Justine was unplayable. If she was still playing who knows how many more grand slams she'd have by now. But she's not so no point trying to guess.

Except when she lost to GOAT Bartoli at Wimbledon of course.

dreamgoddess099
Sep 10th, 2009, 06:40 PM
short term memory anyone??

Serena in 2002 2003 was simply unplayable including for Venus and Henin!
Most of you were just not watching tennis at that time

*Henin fan voice* Henin wasn't at her best yet in 2002 so that doesn't count. :lol:

Seriously, Henin committed tennis suicide, why are her fans still trying to keep her in the conversation when she herself didn't even stick around to seal her legacy? Serena the trooper is still in the fight for better or for worse. Her champion's mettle has always been the biggest difference between her and Justine, and everybody else on tour for that matter.

thrust
Sep 10th, 2009, 06:41 PM
Of course Serena is better than Henin. Serena is one of the greatest tennis players of all time. You should be comparing Henin to Venus NOT Serena

As much as I love Justine's game, I would agree that peak Serena would have the advantage on grass and fast hard courts. Justine would have the advantage on clay. Slower hard courts, very close, with Serena having the slight advantage. I never root for Serena, but have to admire her skill, determination, and mental toughness. She is, without a doubt, the top player of her era.

Galsen
Sep 10th, 2009, 06:48 PM
when Serena is at her peak she moves as well as everyone else
and Serena 07'GS is totally different than Serena 09'GS

Marshmallow
Sep 10th, 2009, 06:50 PM
short term memory anyone??

Serena in 2002 2003 was simply unplayable including for Venus and Henin!
Most of you were just not watching tennis at that time

I was just going to say!!! 2007 seriously went to the heads of some people. Even though Serena won the AO in 2007 (almost put out by Petrova and struggling a whole lot), that whole time period til maybe earlier this year Serena was the most beatable she has ever been. It was just Henin who wasn't getting the better of Serena, there was Dementieva who beat her with several very easy sets. Her movement really suffered after what happened in 2005 and the weight issues.

I’d like Serena and Henin of 2007 to play today, considering how Serena’s movement has improved since then.
But in short Serena at her best > Henin of 2007 or whatever year you want to choose.

Serena at her best scared the whole tour and commentators alike. I don’t think Henin managed that same level of invincibility that wasn’t contextual (relevant to the state of the tour at the time). Sharapova, Mauresmo (who when they played well kept Henin from total dominance – while the Serena was in her weakened state) and I guess Bartoli developed no fear at all.

Aesthetics aside, put Henin and Serena on a court both fit and healthy… I chose Serena to come out on top just about every time. Best player of the generation, undisputed.

Bijoux0021
Sep 10th, 2009, 06:58 PM
Justine barely beat a one handed Serena at Wimbledon in 2007. Serena could not hit a backhand and sliced everything back. That injury took her out that entire summer and she did not play another match UNTIL the US Open. Justine won fair and square, but Justine fans and Serena haters are very delusional if they are taking those wins as a barometer of their rivalry. Serena would have won that Wimbledon match easily if not for the thumb and ankle injuries she sustained in that Hantuchova match.
They know the facts, but as always, they have to deny them in order to make Justine look better than she really was. We all saw in Miami what a healthy Serena can do to Justine. 6-2 6-0.

Tennis Ball
Sep 10th, 2009, 07:00 PM
No, Justine is better and more talented.

BuTtErFrEnA
Sep 10th, 2009, 07:03 PM
let's just end this...


the fact that you have to pick out select years for henin to even show that she's competition shows how worthless she is...we have to discount almost every year of henin, discount almost all her losses, just because "she wasn't ready yet"....so let's only focus on 2007 because from the time she came on tour (ironically didn't she come on tour the same time as serena or just after?) until then she was getting beat by serena even on clay....

so you henin fans/serena haters can hold on to 2007...serena fans have 99 - 09 AND COUNTING! keep holding on to 2007 :wavey:

BuTtErFrEnA
Sep 10th, 2009, 07:05 PM
No, Justine is better and more talented.

yes and that talent got her 7 slams and no wimbledon title...


serena's lack of talent got her 11 slams and counting and all 4 slams including at least 1 on her worst surface...

serena didn't retire because she didn't feel like she could compete at RG...but some other person did..

Donny
Sep 10th, 2009, 07:07 PM
Point of fact: Serena's career as an elite player began years before Henin, and will end years after. Serena won 3 slams in a year before Justine won ONE, and is two matches away from winning three AFTER Justine retired. Because Nadal had a year where he was clearly superior than Fed doesn't make him > Federer. Yet that is exactly what some fans here are doing in regards to Justine's career.

cellophane
Sep 10th, 2009, 07:08 PM
Not this shit again.

Bijoux0021
Sep 10th, 2009, 07:10 PM
yes and that talent got her 7 slams and no wimbledon title...


serena's lack of talent got her 11 slams and counting and all 4 slams including at least 1 on her worst surface...

serena didn't retire because she didn't feel like she could compete at RG...but some other person did..
:worship::worship::worship:

Bijoux0021
Sep 10th, 2009, 07:14 PM
Point of fact: Serena's career as an elite player began years before Henin, and will end years after. Serena won 3 slams in a year before Justine won ONE, and is two matches away from winning three AFTER Justine retired. Because Nadal had a year where he was clearly superior than Fed doesn't make him > Federer. Yet that is exactly what some fans here are doing in regards to Justine's career.
Thank you.

debby
Sep 10th, 2009, 07:19 PM
:yawn:

Serena fans will be bitter towards Henin and they will say Serena is much better because she is not a quitter :rolleyes:

Justine fans will say Henin is more gifted than Serena and she was crushing her in 2007 three times in a row. Also Serena was not the first to have defeated so badly Henin this year. Sharapova was.

Well, I don't want to give my opinion, it will be biased, not objective at all, it is impossible for this thread to end on a good side.

Donny
Sep 10th, 2009, 07:20 PM
:yawn:

Serena fans will be bitter towards Henin and they will say Serena is much better because she is not a quitter :rolleyes:

Justine fans will say Henin is more gifted than Serena and she was crushing her in 2007 three times in a row. Also Serena was not the first to have defeated so badly Henin this year. Sharapova was.

Well, I don't want to give my opinion, it will be biased, not objective at all, it is impossible for this thread to end on a good side.

You just gave your biased opinion...

dsanders06
Sep 10th, 2009, 07:20 PM
I guess I should have phrased the question better. I'm well aware that, as of now, Serena has the better career statistics and, assuming Henin never comes back, Serena will go down as the greater player.

The question I was trying to pose is: had Henin carried on playing as well as she was at the end of 2007 and not lost motivation, would Serena be dominating the Slams? I certainly think the answer is no. I watched Serena's matches at Wimbledon 2007 against Hantuchova and Henin the other day, and, aside from her backhand in the Henin match, there is almost no difference to how she was playing then as she is now: the serve was equally effective, the groundstrokes were the same (generally reliable and relatively conservative, with the odd stunning winner thrown in), she was moving the same. It's just that at the time, Henin was doing something a little more special.

Basically, I think if Serena shows up playing the best tennis of her career to play Henin playing the best tennis of her career, Henin wins convincingly on hard and clay, more of a toss-up on grass. Like I said, Serena would get more free points off her serve by virtue of a higher 1st serve %, but Henin wins in every other department. People keep singling out the forehand as something Serena has over Henin, but that is stunningly off the mark: it's clear that Henin's forehand at the end of her career is far better than Serena's ever was. Henin's fh was actually her main weapon by the end, as it gave her more winners than her more aesthetically-pleasing backhand. Actually, comparing backhands would be more in Serena's favour, even though Henin still probably gets the edge on that.

Someone said Henin never had the aura Serena had at her peak, but that just isn't true: at the end of 2007, everyone was scared stiff of playing Henin, and at the AO2008, all the commentators were talking about how all the top girls had been forced to work harder than ever at adding extra dimensions to their games, because they felt this was the only way they'd even have a shot against Henin. I believe even Serena has admitted she had to seriously rethink some parts of her game at the end of the year solely due to Henin. Then Henin's game went down the tubes, so all those extra dimensions weren't needed.

bandabou
Sep 10th, 2009, 07:24 PM
The ultimate proof of how good Serena really is.. won before, during and is still winning after Juju.

Despite only defending one of her major titles once, has won multiple majors in three seasons! Won in '99, is still winning in '09. Juju's window was like 3/4 years? Not soo much peak to talk about, no?

Matt01
Sep 10th, 2009, 07:25 PM
what was the lead, then?


I can't remember :lol:

But it was definately not 6:0,5:3 since Justine won the 1st set 6:1.

I think her actual lead was something like 6:1,4:2.

Galsen
Sep 10th, 2009, 07:25 PM
please stop this crap
if Serena wasn't injured during 2003-2004, at the USO and AO do you think Henin would have won them? HELL NO !
and PEAK HENIN BEAT PEAK SERENA ON HARD AND CLAY? DEAD
so delusional

Donny
Sep 10th, 2009, 07:27 PM
I guess I should have phrased the question better. I'm well aware that, as of now, Serena has the better career statistics and, assuming Henin never comes back, Serena will go down as the greater player.

The question I was trying to pose is: had Henin carried on playing as well as she was at the end of 2007 and not lost motivation, would Serena be dominating the Slams? I certainly think the answer is no. I watched Serena's matches at Wimbledon 2007 against Hantuchova and Henin the other day, and, aside from her backhand in the Henin match, there is almost no difference to how she was playing then as she is now: the serve was equally effective, the groundstrokes were the same (generally reliable and relatively conservative, with the odd stunning winner thrown in), she was moving the same. It's just that at the time, Henin was doing something a little more special.

Basically, I think if Serena shows up playing the best tennis of her career to play Henin playing the best tennis of her career, Henin wins convincingly on hard and clay, more of a toss-up on grass. Like I said, Serena would get more free points off her serve by virtue of a higher 1st serve %, but Henin wins in every other department. People keep singling out the forehand as something Serena has over Henin, but that is stunningly off the mark: it's clear that Henin's forehand at the end of her career is far better than Serena's ever was. Henin's fh was actually her main weapon by the end, as it gave her more winners than her more aesthetically-pleasing backhand. Actually, comparing backhands would be more in Serena's favour, even though Henin still probably gets the edge on that.

Someone said Henin never had the aura Serena had at her peak, but that just isn't true: at the end of 2007, everyone was scared stiff of playing Henin, and at the AO2008, all the commentators were talking about how all the top girls had been forced to work harder than ever at adding extra dimensions to their games, because they felt this was the only way they'd even have a shot against Henin. I believe even Serena has admitted she had to seriously rethink some parts of her game at the end of the year solely due to Henin. Then Henin's game went down the tubes, so all those extra dimensions weren't needed.

In other words:

If we ignore the entire first half of 2008, we can assume that Justine would still be playing at 2007 levels, and possibly competing with Serena.

And the most disingenuous argument of the year award goes to...

Galsen
Sep 10th, 2009, 07:27 PM
and if Serena would have free points on serve you'll see what RETURNrena is capable of!
ask to Ivanovic this year @ Dubai and Maria in AO 07

Galsen
Sep 10th, 2009, 07:28 PM
In other words:

If we ignore the entire first half of 2008, we can assume that Justine would still be playing at 2007 levels, and possibly competing with Serena.

And the most disingenuous argument of the year award goes to...

:worship: so crazy just ignore

Matt01
Sep 10th, 2009, 07:28 PM
The ultimate proof of how good Serena really is.. won before, during and is still winning after Juju.


That's not the ultimate proof :rolleyes: but keep deluding yourself if you want I'm done argueing with the WS fans. (for now :p)

Matt01
Sep 10th, 2009, 07:30 PM
please stop this crap
if Serena wasn't injured during 2003-2004, at the USO and AO do you think Henin would have won them? HELL NO !


Hell yes. I think so and the German Tennis Magazine thinks so as well.

dsanders06
Sep 10th, 2009, 07:31 PM
please stop this crap
if Serena wasn't injured during 2003-2004, at the USO and AO do you think Henin would have won them? HELL NO !
and PEAK HENIN BEAT PEAK SERENA ON HARD AND CLAY? DEAD
so delusional
Like I said, I base that conclusion on the fact that I believe Henin is superior in almost every department game-wise. If you disagree with that, feel free to pick out elements of the game that you think Serena is better. I said grass is more of a toss-up because Serena's better serve would reap more rewards on that surface.

In other words:

If we ignore the entire first half of 2008, we can assume that Justine would still be playing at 2007 levels, and possibly competing with Serena.

And the most disingenuous argument of the year award goes to...
I'm not going to deny that it's ultimately futile to debate the "shoulda, woulda, couldas", as we're never going to know the answer to this argument for sure. I think it's still interesting to discuss and speculate nonetheless.

fufuqifuqishahah
Sep 10th, 2009, 07:33 PM
I realise this issue has probably been touched upon many times on this forum previously, but I am genuinely curious as to people's thoughts.

Seriously, I can't see how anyone can logically say Serena is a better player than Henin was by the end of her career. I mean, Serena has not won a Slam when Henin wasn't in the draw since 2003, and in 2007, Serena simply had no idea how to beat Henin. I can see that Serena's serve is maybe a bit better than Henin's (Henin could almost match Serena in the top serve speed, but she typically had a low 1st serve %). But in terms of groundstrokes, they were at best equal, movement-wise Henin was infinitely better, and of course there was no contest in terms of finesse. I can see that maybe Serena remained generally the better player on grass, even if Henin won their last Wimbledon meeting, but on hard courts Serena was generally unable to beat a top-form Henin, and clay would never have been a contest.

I realise this is all moot in the wide scheme of things; personally, I don't think we'll ever see Henin come back, and even if she did, it's highly unlikely she'd ever return to her 2007 level again. But I'm still interested to hear people's thoughts.


Yes. Serena much more frequently destroys her opponents, but she also has more :weirdo: losses.

The only active player Serena has a negative H2H against is Sybille Bammer, whereas Justine has a few. However, Justine has many lopsided H2Hs in her favor -- she really dismantles her opponent -- Serena's game style is more common on tour than Justine's so many players don't have the familiarity with Justine's game style so are unable to deal with it.

Justine is not infinitely better on groundstrokes, and I would in fact argue she is worse. Serena can get a tremendous amount more power. On their off days, Justine is more consistent than Serena, but on their on days, Serena is much more impressive. However, Justine has more variety than Serena with the types of shots she can produce.

Justine, though not of the same foot speed of an in-form Serena, had better footwork than Serena.

Serena's serve is the best in the women's game; Johnny Mac thinks its the best EVER in the women's game. Perhaps pound for pound, Justine's serve is better, but really the serve itself wasn't uber impressive. She has equally as strong service games though because she is slightly more effective than Serena at winning the point if a serve is returned.

They are rather close, but Serena is still obviously better than Henin. Maybe if you had only started watching tennis recently you could argue Henin is better because of their more recent match-ups, but Serena really takes the cake. [During this period, Serena was also having trouble with Jankovic.] She has also won all Grand Slams (proving she can be effective on all surfaces) and all doubles Grand Slams.

dsanders06
Sep 10th, 2009, 07:33 PM
and if Serena would have free points on serve you'll see what RETURNrena is capable of!
ask to Ivanovic this year @ Dubai and Maria in AO 07

LOL. Sorry, you say I'm crazy because you think I'm saying Henin is better due to one great season of hers......and then you turn around and say Serena is better due to two or three MATCHES?!

debby
Sep 10th, 2009, 07:33 PM
You just gave your biased opinion...

No because I am stating true facts. Serena is not the first to crush Henin that year, and I hate saying that because I don't like Maria at all. If you don't agree, then you are delusional. :help: Hell, Justine was even playing better against Sharpie than in Miami... She was just awful. 40+ unforced errors for like 10 winners. And you know, a 32 matchs winning streak which ends on a 6-4 6-0 crushing is much more painful than a 6-2 6-0 after three months of shaky play.

please stop this crap
if Serena wasn't injured during 2003-2004, at the USO and AO do you think Henin would have won them? HELL NO !
and PEAK HENIN BEAT PEAK SERENA ON HARD AND CLAY? DEAD
so delusional

Please, don't tell me that you think Serena is better than Henin on clay ? :tape::tape::tape: I mean, SERIOUSLY ???! On hard, it may be arguable but I will give it you, on grass no question, Serena is much better, but on clay ?!

Galsen
Sep 10th, 2009, 07:33 PM
Hell yes. I think so and the German Tennis Magazine thinks so as well.

you need serious help. so Henin would still be winning slams why Serena woudn't during 2003-2004
remember after FO 03 @ Wimbledon? 6-3 6-2 that was really close:wavey:

fufuqifuqishahah
Sep 10th, 2009, 07:36 PM
Serena at her best scared the whole tour and commentators alike. I don’t think Henin managed that same level of invincibility that wasn’t contextual (relevant to the state of the tour at the time). Sharapova, Mauresmo (who when they played well kept Henin from total dominance – while the Serena was in her weakened state) and I guess Bartoli developed no fear at all.



Excellent point. I believe Justine even said herself that she never achieved the level of dominance that Serena achieved in 2002/3? when she started her Serena Slam.

Paneru
Sep 10th, 2009, 07:37 PM
Yes.

I think Serena is also more committed to her tennis and fitness than she was
from 2005-2007. Her fitness levels still goes up and down but I think it is
more steady now.

Better fitness always equates to success for Serena in my mind.

debby
Sep 10th, 2009, 07:37 PM
you need serious help. so Henin would still be winning slams why Serena woudn't during 2003-2004
remember after FO 03 @ Wimbledon? 6-3 6-2 that was really close:wavey:

Wait, just like AO 08 against Jankovic ? She lost in straights but won every slam after except RG and Wimbledon 08 :tape:

Galsen
Sep 10th, 2009, 07:38 PM
LOL. Sorry, you say I'm crazy because you think I'm saying Henin is better due to one great season of hers......and then you turn around and say Serena is better due to two or three MATCHES?!

Serena's serve or return well on two or three matches?:help::tape: that was just some examples
and Henin is better in every departement against Serena but serve:confused:

Veesus
Sep 10th, 2009, 07:39 PM
Serena is like a Grand Slam tornament, and Henin's like a Tier III :shrug:

Galsen
Sep 10th, 2009, 07:41 PM
No because I am stating true facts. Serena is not the first to crush Henin that year, and I hate saying that because I don't like Maria at all. If you don't agree, then you are delusional. :help: Hell, Justine was even playing better against Sharpie than in Miami... She was just awful. 40+ unforced errors for like 10 winners. And you know, a 32 matchs winning streak which ends on a 6-4 6-0 crushing is much more painful than a 6-2 6-0 after three months of shaky play.


Please, don't tell me that you think Serena is better than Henin on clay ? :tape::tape::tape: I mean, SERIOUSLY ???! On hard, it may be arguable but I will give it you, on grass no question, Serena is much better, but on clay ?!
I still think Serena could have challenged her on clay 6-4 6-3 isn't that bad but 6-2 6-0 is :tape:
6-4 6-0 more painful than 6-2 6-0 because she was on matchs winning streak so what? she has been murdered end

Galsen
Sep 10th, 2009, 07:42 PM
Wait, just like AO 08 against Jankovic ? She lost in straights but won every slam after except RG and Wimbledon 08 :tape:


I'm not even gonna argue with you because I don't even know what you're talking about

dsanders06
Sep 10th, 2009, 07:45 PM
The hypocrisy of Serena fans here by bringing up the Miami result is actually hilarious. How can they be constantly saying Serena is the current real #1 because non-Slams don't count, and then turn around and structure an argument around a Miami result? You can't pick and choose the results that are "significant" depending on whether they're in Serena's favour or not.

Matt01
Sep 10th, 2009, 07:45 PM
you need serious help. so Henin would still be winning slams why Serena woudn't during 2003-2004
remember after FO 03 @ Wimbledon? 6-3 6-2 that was really close:wavey:


And Wimbledon 03 has exactly what to do with USO 03 or AO 04? Correct, nothing. Justine has beaten Serena twice that year before and played fantastic tennis at USO 03 so I believe Justine would have won regardless of Serena' "injuries". That doesn't mean that I or the German Tennis Magazine need help.

Galsen
Sep 10th, 2009, 07:47 PM
The hypocrisy of Serena fans here by bringing up the Miami result is actually hilarious. How can they be constantly saying Serena is the current real #1 because non-Slams don't count, and then turn around and structure an argument around a Miami result? You can't pick and choose the results that are "significant" depending on whether they're in Serena's favour or not.

here we go another troll out here
since when we said she's the real #1?
actually she's doing a good job @ #2 so stop talking shit

Galsen
Sep 10th, 2009, 07:50 PM
And Wimbledon 03 has exactly what to do with USO 03 or AO 04? Correct, nothing. Justine has beaten Serena twice that year before and played fantastic tennis at USO 03 so I believe Justine would have won regardless of Serena' "injuries". That doesn't mean that I or the German Tennis Magazine need help.

wanna be sure, you think she would have won against Serena in 2003 USO?

vml
Sep 10th, 2009, 07:52 PM
And Wimbledon 03 has exactly what to do with USO 03 or AO 04? Correct, nothing. Justine has beaten Serena twice that year before and played fantastic tennis at USO 03 so I believe Justine would have won regardless of Serena' "injuries". That doesn't mean that I or the German Tennis Magazine need help.

Of course !!! As if German Tennis Magazine spoke the truth....

Matt01
Sep 10th, 2009, 07:54 PM
wanna be sure, you think she would have won against Serena in 2003 USO?


I *believe* she would have won the USO regardless but I don't know exactly what would have happened if they had met. And you and the other Serena don't know it, either.

dsanders06
Sep 10th, 2009, 07:55 PM
here we go another troll out here
since when we said she's the real #1?
actually she's doing a good job @ #2 so stop talking shit

Sorry, but how am I the troll? Am I the one who's been telling people they're "crazy" and "need help" for expressing their opinions?

But anyway... are you seriously claiming that there HAVEN'T been people on here saying Serena is the best player in the world right now?

Bijoux0021
Sep 10th, 2009, 07:57 PM
wanna be sure, you think she would have won against Serena in 2003 USO?
Hell no! Justine had to cheat and lie in order to win the FO semifinal in 2003.

Matt01
Sep 10th, 2009, 08:00 PM
Hell no! Justine had to cheat and lie in order to win the FO semifinal in 2003.


Thank you for bringing this up again, troll. If not for you I almost would have forgotten about that.

debby
Sep 10th, 2009, 08:03 PM
Serena is like a Grand Slam tornament, and Henin's like a Tier III :shrug:

I would love to be a Tier III : I would have one of the best backhands of all time, hold 4 FO, 1 OA and 2 USO, 117 weeks as #1. You are not credible at all.

I still think Serena could have challenged her on clay 6-4 6-3 isn't that bad but 6-2 6-0 is :tape:
6-4 6-0 more painful than 6-2 6-0 because she was on matchs winning streak so what? she has been murdered end

You really want to believe that loss has hurt Henin much more than this one against Sharapova, but it is not true, because after that spanking loss, she was not the same anymore. She was losing that fire during months... and retired. Silly retirement, should have taken a extended break.

I don't understand why you bring that 6-2 6-0 loss, if I understand, Sharapova is much better than Serena on grass because she crushed her 6-4 6-1 ?

I'm not even gonna argue with you because I don't even know what you're talking about

Never in doubt. You are saying that Justine would not have beaten Serena in hardcourts Slams despite the fact she has beaten her at Roland Garros and got crushed at Wimbledon. I am bringing Jankovic up because Serena lost to her on hardcourt Slam but defeated her at US Open later. It is bullshit that win at Wimbledon, it did not mean at all Justine was going to get similar loss at US Open if the sisters have played there.

Galsen
Sep 10th, 2009, 08:05 PM
I *believe* she would have won the USO regardless but I don't know exactly what would have happened if they had met. And you and the other Serena don't know it, either.
okay it's a lil' bit better
Sorry, but how am I the troll? Am I the one who's been telling people they're "crazy" and "need help" for expressing their opinions?

But anyway... are you seriously claiming that there HAVEN'T been people on here saying Serena is the best player in the world right now?

no I'm not saying that but don't act like everyone is saying this. When some of WS fans say " bad things" according to some of you you always bring it up but when we act "normal" you never mentioned it anyway.
I didn't say you were a troll because you're expressing your opinions but some things you said were:eek:

Bijoux0021
Sep 10th, 2009, 08:06 PM
Thank you for bringing this up again, troll. If not for you I almost would have forgotten about that.
How could you forget that Justine cheated and lied to get her first GS title, troll? Do you expect people to believe you? :o

Galsen
Sep 10th, 2009, 08:08 PM
You really want to believe that loss has hurt Henin much more than this one against Sharapova, but it is not true, because after that spanking loss, she was not the same anymore. She was losing that fire during months... and retired. Silly retirement, should have taken a extended break.

I don't understand why you bring that 6-2 6-0 loss, if I understand, Sharapova is much better than Serena on grass because she crushed her 6-4 6-1 ?



Never in doubt. You are saying that Justine would not have beaten Serena in hardcourts Slams despite the fact she has beaten her at Roland Garros and got crushed at Wimbledon. I am bringing Jankovic up because Serena lost to her on hardcourt Slam but defeated her at US Open later. It is bullshit that win at Wimbledon, it did not mean at all Justine was going to get similar loss at US Open if the sisters have played there.

first, Sharapova was better than Serena during this match even if they only played once
so you think Justine would have won ? and when some people here say Serena is winning GS because Justine is retired it seems normal to you? okay say whatever you want

Mina Vagante
Sep 10th, 2009, 08:11 PM
Not this again.

For the 249389384938598327th time, Serena is a better player than Henin. Her stats prove it.

11 GS > 7 GS

All 4 majors > Not winning wimbledon

Head to head 7-6.

I'll say it again, Until Justine wins Wimbledon, do not even compare her to Serena
:wavey:

debby
Sep 10th, 2009, 08:16 PM
first, Sharapova was better than Serena during this match even if they only played once
so you think Justine would have won ? and when some people here say Serena is winning GS because Justine is retired it seems normal to you? okay say whatever you want

Why did I say that Justine would have won ? I does agree with Matt01 : nobody will never know for 2003, Serena may have still won US Open, or Justine. We don't know and never will.

No, it is not normal, but I find normal that we say Serena is missing true rivals in Slams.

mdterp01
Sep 10th, 2009, 08:16 PM
Not this again.

For the 249389384938598327th time, Serena is a better player than Henin. Her stats prove it.

11 GS > 7 GS

All 4 majors > Not winning wimbledon

Head to head 7-6.

I'll say it again, Until Justine wins Wimbledon, do not even compare her to Serena
:wavey:

:worship:

And correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall Justine entering singles AND doubles in a grand slam and winning both. Serena has done it on more than one occasion. How many doubles slam titles does Justine have? And don't even try to discount the meaning of doubles grand slams either. :rolleyes: This record is so old and scratched that it needs to be thrown in the trash for good!!

dsanders06
Sep 10th, 2009, 08:18 PM
Not this again.

For the 249389384938598327th time, Serena is a better player than Henin. Her stats prove it.

11 GS > 7 GS

All 4 majors > Not winning wimbledon

Head to head 7-6.

I'll say it again, Until Justine wins Wimbledon, do not even compare her to Serena
:wavey:

Even if Henin didn't win Wimbledon, she has a far better general record there than Serena does at the French Open. To deny that is just silly. Slam totals are important, but they aren't the be-all and end-all... unless we're seriously saying Iva Majoli's career as Kim Clijsters's?

Galsen
Sep 10th, 2009, 08:21 PM
Even if Henin didn't win Wimbledon, she has a far better general record there than Serena does at the French Open. To deny that is just silly. Slam totals are important, but they aren't the be-all and end-all... unless we're seriously saying Iva Majoli's career as Kim Clijsters's?

as long as Serena doesn't lose in the first round of the french:dance:

Bijoux0021
Sep 10th, 2009, 08:24 PM
Not this again.

For the 249389384938598327th time, Serena is a better player than Henin. Her stats prove it.

11 GS > 7 GS

All 4 majors > Not winning wimbledon

Head to head 7-6.

I'll say it again, Until Justine wins Wimbledon, do not even compare her to Serena
:wavey:
It's pretty clear that Justine's fans and Serena's haters are bitter that Justine quit or was forced out of the game, whereas Serena is still playing and going for her 12th Grand Slam. So whenever they want to make themselves feel better, they bring up this nonsense that Justine is better than Serena crap. :o

Yorker
Sep 10th, 2009, 08:31 PM
i know alot of williams fans hate her for good reason but i don't think it can be denied that justine vs. serena matches are always pretty good to watch, there's a few that suck but if she does come back, as a general fan i will love watching them play eachother.

Galsen
Sep 10th, 2009, 08:33 PM
some of their matches were bad
we didn't see them play at their peak
hopefully soon :)
shame they never play in a GS final

Yorker
Sep 10th, 2009, 08:35 PM
some of their matches were bad
we didn't see them play at their peak
hopefully soon :)
shame they never play in a GS final

wowthat is weird they have never met in a gs final, that would be nice to see. the women's draws have always been utter shit first it was always serena vs. jen n the quarters then it was serena vs. justine everytime, always sucked.

DOUBLEFIST
Sep 10th, 2009, 08:39 PM
Even if Henin didn't win Wimbledon, she has a far better general record there than Serena does at the French Open.

You sound ridiculous.

You're saying that The Queater, if given a choice, and could take Serena's record at RG and make that her own Wimby record, she'd KEEP her Wimby record?

The Queater would LOVE to have even ONE Wimby Venus Rosewater Plate than all her "also ran" performances.

bandabou
Sep 10th, 2009, 08:51 PM
Juju's good, no doubts...but Serena's at another level.

Tennisstar86
Sep 10th, 2009, 08:57 PM
I realise this issue has probably been touched upon many times on this forum previously, but I am genuinely curious as to people's thoughts.

Seriously, I can't see how anyone can logically say Serena is a better player than Henin was by the end of her career. I mean, Serena has not won a Slam when Henin wasn't in the draw since 2003, and in 2007, Serena simply had no idea how to beat Henin. I can see that Serena's serve is maybe a bit better than Henin's (Henin could almost match Serena in the top serve speed, but she typically had a low 1st serve %). But in terms of groundstrokes, they were at best equal, movement-wise Henin was infinitely better, and of course there was no contest in terms of finesse. I can see that maybe Serena remained generally the better player on grass, even if Henin won their last Wimbledon meeting, but on hard courts Serena was generally unable to beat a top-form Henin, and clay would never have been a contest.

I realise this is all moot in the wide scheme of things; personally, I don't think we'll ever see Henin come back, and even if she did, it's highly unlikely she'd ever return to her 2007 level again. But I'm still interested to hear people's thoughts.

Reading that part, shows that you dont know what you're talking about.... Serena's top serve speed was 128 Justines may have thrown in 1 at 117.... Henin's back was a liability I dont care was anyone says.... Henin also could move faster than Serena, not at her best... Henin had good footwork, but Serena at her best is faster than anyone else on tour except Venus.... Groundstrokes are not even... Henin cant generate the pace that Serena has... She has better slice though.. and her net game is better... Serena wins on serve/ Groundstrokes and speed.... In the end 2002 Serena >>>>>> 2007 Justine.... Serena was a mess in 2007 of course she couldnt beat Justine...

miffedmax
Sep 10th, 2009, 09:18 PM
Why do you seem to think the world is divided into Serena fans and Serena haters? I stated explicitly in that post that I'm not an Henin fan, and that I have a lot of respect for both players (even if Serena's sportsmanship leaves a lot to be desired).

And my entire point is that, had Henin not lost motivation at the end of 2007 and kept playing, she would have won Wimbledon one day as part of her domination, based on the fact she was cleaning up at the Slams and that Serena was clueless on how to beat her.

Like my daddy used to say, "If, if, if. If a frog had wings, he wouldn't whomp his ass every time he landed." Justine DID burn out. TOB fucked up her shoulder. Lena D. has no bangs and no mental strength at slams. Vee is as consistent as the weather. Safina implodes. JJ and Ana make Dementieva look like nails. And Serena, much as it IRRITATES THE LIVING SHIT OUT OF ME keeps winning. BTW, I think you're grossly underestimating Serena's game. The fact she has winning h2h against such widely varying slam holders as TOB, Venus, Henin, Myskina and Capriati says something about her ability to adjust for not only surfaces, but playing styles of her opponents.

Some critics of the WS remind me of the old line about Bugatti after his beautiful, delicate, over-engineered race cars were set to run against the Bentley boys at Le Mans. "Yes," said Bugatti, "they make nice trucks." Of course, those Bentley "trucks" ran roughshod over his cars. Good tactics and winning form aren't always pretty. But the results are.

terjw
Sep 10th, 2009, 09:25 PM
2002 - mid 2003 Serena >>> Justine
mid 2003 >>> 2007 Justine >>> Serena
2008 Serena >> a retiring Justine who had lost her motivation (pointless comparison)
mid 2008 - now Serena because Justine is not playing

Serena has collected the most slams but in the years when they were both playing - Justine was more often the better player.

Donny
Sep 10th, 2009, 09:33 PM
2002 - mid 2003 Serena >>> Justine
mid 2003 >>> 2007 Justine >>> Serena
2008 Serena >> a retiring Justine who had lost her motivation (pointless comparison)
mid 2008 - now Serena because Justine is not playing

Serena has collected the most slams but in the years when they were both playing - Justine was more often the better player.

So 2008 is a pointless comparison, but 2006, where Serena played about four tournaments due to injury/other issues, if fair game?

This kind of logic never ceases to amaze me. BTW, maybe I'm crazy, but I SWORE that both of their careers began before 2002, yet you left those years out.

Oh wait, Justine wasn't a good player yet, or something, so that's not a fair comparison either.

kiwifan
Sep 10th, 2009, 09:33 PM
Like my daddy used to say, "If, if, if. If a frog had wings, he wouldn't whomp his ass every time he landed." Justine DID burn out. TOB fucked up her shoulder. Lena D. has no bangs and no mental strength at slams. Vee is as consistent as the weather. Safina implodes. JJ and Ana make Dementieva look like nails. And Serena, much as it IRRITATES THE LIVING SHIT OUT OF ME keeps winning. BTW, I think you're grossly underestimating Serena's game. The fact she has winning h2h against such widely varying slam holders as TOB, Venus, Henin, Myskina and Capriati says something about her ability to adjust for not only surfaces, but playing styles of her opponents.

Not only did this post make me laugh but dammit, it is the perfect "summary post" of not just this thread but all 7, 259, 006 threads on this subject matter.

I may have to cut and paste this into then next 30 threads of a similar nature. :devil:

Miss Atomic Bomb
Sep 10th, 2009, 09:33 PM
2002 - mid 2003 Serena >>> Justine
mid 2003 >>> 2007 Justine >>> Serena
2008 Serena >> a retiring Justine who had lost her motivation (pointless comparison)
mid 2008 - now Serena because Justine is not playing

Serena has collected the most slams but in the years when they were both playing - Justine was more often the better player.

Is that why Serena leads the H2H and even before Justine retired Serena lead her in slam count (8 to 7)

toxina90
Sep 10th, 2009, 09:43 PM
Quaterena might have been a fluke :p

Stamp Paid
Sep 10th, 2009, 09:56 PM
who cares, Henin is no longer relevant to Serena's tennis career.
Rest in peace.
Although I thank Henin. If it werent for her beating Serena 3 straight times, Serena wouldnt have gotten her shit together and gone on this current grand slam run :drool::drool:

shell
Sep 10th, 2009, 10:04 PM
Reading that part, shows that you dont know what you're talking about.... Serena's top serve speed was 128 Justines may have thrown in 1 at 117.... Henin's back was a liability I dont care was anyone says.... Henin also could move faster than Serena, not at her best... Henin had good footwork, but Serena at her best is faster than anyone else on tour except Venus.... Groundstrokes are not even... Henin cant generate the pace that Serena has... She has better slice though.. and her net game is better... Serena wins on serve/ Groundstrokes and speed.... In the end 2002 Serena >>>>>> 2007 Justine.... Serena was a mess in 2007 of course she couldnt beat Justine...

Henin had serves in the low 120s, and there was nothing wrong with her back. Your information is incorrect.

rottweily
Sep 10th, 2009, 10:06 PM
no

BuTtErFrEnA
Sep 10th, 2009, 10:16 PM
as usual all the henin tards/serena detractors will want to leave out the years jh did jack shit..which was like every year bar 2003/2007 :lol: but want to include serena's 2006....:rolls: :rolls:

Pureracket
Sep 10th, 2009, 10:21 PM
Well, maybe this thread will be valid in January when Henin comes back. Ya' know....when she's had time to piss the 'roids out of her system and all.

Six Feet Under
Sep 10th, 2009, 10:26 PM
Henin, in my mind, has more talent then serena.

terjw
Sep 10th, 2009, 10:29 PM
So 2008 is a pointless comparison, but 2006, where Serena played about four tournaments due to injury/other issues, if fair game?

This kind of logic never ceases to amaze me. BTW, maybe I'm crazy, but I SWORE that both of their careers began before 2002, yet you left those years out.

Oh wait, Justine wasn't a good player yet, or something, so that's not a fair comparison either.

OK then for two months in 2008 just b4 she retired Serena >>> Justine who said she'd lost her motivation.
For 4.5 years between mid 2003 and 2007 Justine >>> Serena who apparently according to her fans was injured or had issues all that time. Happy?

BuTtErFrEnA
Sep 10th, 2009, 10:37 PM
you're hilarious :rolls: these threads always bring out the logic once you try to detract from serena...

serena's 2002-2003 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> henin's entire career lol

Geisha
Sep 10th, 2009, 10:37 PM
I seriously wish people on this board would use some factual basis for their opinions and not just gloat about who they "like" better. I'll give an opinion, just because I'm hysterically bored at home and I have nothing better to do.

One, I think the question is extremely vague - what does 'better player' even mean? Does it mean who hits the best shot, 'technically'? Does it mean who's won the most majors? Does it mean who's the greatest player in terms of weeks at number one? I mean, there are so many ways to take this question. I'll take 'better player' to mean who would've won more matches against each other at their peak - "peak" meaning a full year of tennis, not just one match where the player played unbelievable tennis.

Whoever says that Serena is playing just about as well as she was playing in 2007 is completely wrong. Just look at the way she’s currently hitting the ball – she wasn’t doing any of that in 2007, apart from the final of the Australian Open. It’s two different Serena’s for me. Her movement and mind are on completely different sides of the spectrum.

Whoever wants to use the 2008 Miami match to solve this debate is also misled. It’s clear that Justine wasn’t in any ‘champion’ mode. She played like a dog. That was one match where Serena literally had to stand there and get the ball in. Sure, there were impressive points hit by Serena, but it isn’t easy to play well and high in confidence when your opponent is missing every in the book.

Whoever wants to use Serena’s domination until the knee injury in 2003 is foolish. Justine in 2007 was completely different than in 2003. She had more power and much more confidence. Yes, it’s true that the 2003 US Open would’ve probably been much more difficult for Justine to win if Serena and/or Venus were in the draw, but that’s a mute point because they were both injured.

Serena’s serve is much better. Her movement from the 2002 season was as good, if not better and more explosive and athletic than Justine’s in 2007. Not to mention she just has more ‘guts’, in my opinion. She just has that thing that you need to be a huge force. I feel like Justine gave too much in her matches against players like Serena and Venus, Jennifer and Sharapova that that’s what ended up draining her. She just had no more. Serena just goes and goes and goes.

I’ve always said that the Serena from late 2001 to 2003 is the greatest tennis player of all-time. I have no doubts in my mind that she’d be on the winning end of almost every match she plays against anyone else, including Henin. If I were going on peaks, I’d say Serena wins 8 out of 10 times.

Geisha
Sep 10th, 2009, 10:39 PM
Yes Yes & Yes - Serena is better than Henin.

I still say, Henin would not have won the US Open in 2003 had the Williams sisters played. They owned her at that point. This would've continued to deflate her confidence when playing them.

But it's all a mute point. Serena has 11 slams and leads the H2H.

PEACE

Justine was consistently and technically a better player. Her average is much better than Serena’s average. However, Serena at 100% (ie. AO 07) is unplayable. So I guess it’s all down to interpretation. By better player, do you mean whilst both at their best or consistency?

And yes, this topic has been done to death and this thread will turn into all out war later on as always :yawn:

All the objective evidence points in the direction of Serena...

...including the last time they played, who's ass was kicked?

Almost every time Henin scored a major victory over Serena the next time they played Serena set the record straight (usually a Henin win on Clay followed by a Serena win on another surface).

Henin on Clay...that's the qualifier, but I'd take Serena tomorrow, next week, next year or in 2012 against Henin.

It's hard to say who is/was better because they were at their peaks 5 years apart. Too bad they couyldn't have peaked at the same exact time.

We never saw a peak Henin vs Peak Serena match yet, so I can't judge. Miami came closest to Serena peak, but then again people will say Henin was shit, but the point is Henin was shit because Serena pushed her behind the baseline.

If Serena manages to move better and hit a bit less errors, she'll never lose again to Henin.

From what Justine said, it had a lot to do with when she BEAT Maria in the SEC. This match and that match with Dinara were the two she specifically picked out.

2002 - mid 2003 Serena >>> Justine
mid 2003 >>> 2007 Justine >>> Serena
2008 Serena >> a retiring Justine who had lost her motivation (pointless comparison)
mid 2008 - now Serena because Justine is not playing

Serena has collected the most slams but in the years when they were both playing - Justine was more often the better player.

Why do you start at 2002? They began their H2H in 2001, and Justine was already quite established by then.

Donny
Sep 10th, 2009, 10:41 PM
OK then for two months in 2008 just b4 she retired Serena >>> Justine who said she'd lost her motivation.
For 4.5 years between mid 2003 and 2007 Justine >>> Serena who apparently according to her fans was injured or had issues all that time. Happy?

Two months?

Serena's 2008 results were far better than Henin's up until the point when she retired.

Quarters at the AO, wins at Miami, Charleston, and Bangalore. Not to mention a dominant win in the only match they played that year.

That's at LEAST a four or five month period.

The Daviator
Sep 10th, 2009, 10:42 PM
OK then for two months in 2008 just b4 she retired Serena >>> Justine who said she'd lost her motivation.
For 4.5 years between mid 2003 and 2007 Justine >>> Serena who apparently according to her fans was injured or had issues all that time. Happy?

For 4 years (mid 1999-mid 2003) Serena >>> Henin :wavey:

friendsita
Sep 10th, 2009, 10:43 PM
Serena was (1999) is 2009 an will be (2019) better than Henin.

Donny
Sep 10th, 2009, 10:45 PM
For 4 years (mid 1999-mid 2003) Serena >>> Henin :wavey:

OMG that doesn't count though, because Henin wasn't capable of beating Serena!

Maybe we should compare Safina's and Henin's careers starting with Berlin 2008...

BuTtErFrEnA
Sep 10th, 2009, 10:47 PM
i think so too...which means...

safina >>>> jh

Bijoux0021
Sep 10th, 2009, 10:48 PM
Henin, in my mind, has more talent then serena.


yes and that talent got her 7 slams and no wimbledon title...


serena's lack of talent got her 11 slams and counting and all 4 slams including at least 1 on her worst surface...

serena didn't retire because she didn't feel like she could compete at RG...but some other person did..
:wavey:

Mrs. Berasetegui
Sep 10th, 2009, 10:56 PM
OK Juju is a fav but I do think overall that she's a better player than Serena who is great also. Juju just has a more all around game and cleaner strokes than Serena which is why I think Juju is better. :)

dsanders06
Sep 10th, 2009, 11:10 PM
I'll take 'better player' to mean who would've won more matches against each other at their peak - "peak" meaning a full year of tennis, not just one match where the player played unbelievable tennis..

Yes, that is what I meant. I personally believe that if Henin and Serena both showed up on court playing the best tennis of their respective careers, Henin would win on both clay and hard, and it would be a toss-up on grass. And I base this on the fact I believe Henin's game is superior in almost every department. I find it weird that you and some others say 2002 Serena was a better mover than 2007 Henin - I'm not saying you're wrong necessarily, I guess I'd just always assumed Henin was a far better mover. I definitely believe 2007 Henin had the edge on 2002 Serena on groundstrokes though. And I also agree that Serena is mentally tougher, but by the end of her career, Henin could pretty much always be relied on to hold a lead (Bartoli at Wimbledon being an exception).

Zweli
Sep 10th, 2009, 11:24 PM
Yes,people with great minds think Serena is and she is .period
Close the thread before .....

Zweli
Sep 10th, 2009, 11:27 PM
Henin, in my mind, has more talent then serena.



Yeah, I agree with you "in your mind":lol:

The Kaz
Sep 10th, 2009, 11:30 PM
Peak Serena will def. peak henin 6-1 6-1

:bs:

Roookie
Sep 10th, 2009, 11:34 PM
Justine > Serena. Nuff said.

Miss Atomic Bomb
Sep 10th, 2009, 11:36 PM
you're hilarious :rolls: these threads always bring out the logic once you try to detract from serena...

serena's 2002-2003 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> henin's entire career lol

:worship:

zvonarevarulz
Sep 10th, 2009, 11:44 PM
Here's an interesting fact: out of Justine's 7 GS titles, Serena was not in the tournament for 4 of them. That's over half.

Matt01
Sep 10th, 2009, 11:48 PM
Here's an interesting fact: out of Justine's 7 GS titles, Serena was not in the tournament for 4 of them. That's over half.


Interesting fact: Of the 6 times Serena and Justine played in Slams, Justine won 4 times. That's two third. That's over half. And since according to the Serena fans the Slams are everything and Serena's embarassing losses at the WTA tournmaents these days are irrelevant, that means that Justine is the better player of the two. :lol:

debby
Sep 10th, 2009, 11:54 PM
Here's an interesting fact: out of Justine's 7 GS titles, Serena was not in the tournament for 4 of them. That's over half.

Here's an interesting fact : out of Serena's Slam titles since January 2003, Justine was in the tournament only for ... 2 of them. :tape: :tape:

debby
Sep 10th, 2009, 11:55 PM
Interesting fact: Of the 6 times Serena and Justine played in Slams, Justine won 4 times. That's two third. That's over half. And since according to the Serena fans the Slams are everything and Serena's embarassing losses at the WTA tournmaents these days are irrelevant, that means that Justine is the better player of the two. :lol:

:lol: :worship:

terjw
Sep 10th, 2009, 11:57 PM
Two months?

Serena's 2008 results were far better than Henin's up until the point when she retired.

Quarters at the AO, wins at Miami, Charleston, and Bangalore. Not to mention a dominant win in the only match they played that year.

That's at LEAST a four or five month period.

Miami and Charleston were within 1 month of her retiring. Charleston & Bangalore - Justine didn't play there anyway. But even if she had Bangalore is about 2 months before Justine retired.

At AO - Serena certainly didn't do any better than Justine. In fact Justine lost to the eventual winner whereas Serena lost to an injured Jelena. So if anything - her performance was worse. But let's say I generously give you early 2008 is unknown - they didn't play each other. So yes - two months.

Before 2002 - neither Serena nor Justine - all the talk was Venus, Lindsay, Jennifer and Martina. OK Serena > Justine those very early formative years but neither was the real focus of attention save for that early slam win in 1999. But Serena took off in 2002 and Justine in 2003 which is the period they will be pretty well remembered from. Not when they were climbing the ranks at the very beginning of their careers.

terjw
Sep 10th, 2009, 11:58 PM
Interesting fact: Of the 6 times Serena and Justine played in Slams, Justine won 4 times. That's two third. That's over half. And since according to the Serena fans the Slams are everything and Serena's embarassing losses at the WTA tournmaents these days are irrelevant, that means that Justine is the better player of the two. :lol:

:lol::lol:

dsanders06
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:04 AM
Here's an interesting fact: out of Justine's 7 GS titles, Serena was not in the tournament for 4 of them. That's over half.

The same is true for Serena. Henin wasn't in the draw for 6 of Serena's wins, and all since 2003.

~Cherry*Blossom~
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:05 AM
At the end of the day Serena is greater than that herpes infested :dog:

debby
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:06 AM
The same is true for Serena. Henin wasn't in the draw for 6 of Serena's wins, and all since 2003.

OA and Wimbledon 2003 ;)

Donny
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:11 AM
Miami and Charleston were within 1 month of her retiring. Charleston & Bangalore - Justine didn't play there anyway. But even if she had Bangalore is about 2 months before Justine retired. AO - Serena certainly didn't do any better than Justine. In fact Justine lost to the eventual winner whereas Serena lost to an injured Jelena. So if anything - her performance was worse. But let's say I generously give you early 2008 is unknown - they didn't play each other. So yes - two months.

So just to clarify- you think Justine's 2008 up to Berlin was equal to or better than Serena's year at the same point in time? You'd take Sydney and Antwerp over Miami and Charleston?

Before 2002 - neither Serena nor Justine - all the talk was Venus, Lindsay, Jennifer and Martina. OK Serena > Justine those years but neither was the real focus of attention save for that early slam win in 1999. But Serena took off in 2002 and Justine in 2003 which is the period they will be pretty well remebered from.

This makes zero sense. A career is an ENTIRE career, not the highlights of a career. For the majority of the time Henin was playing, Serena was the better player and had better results.

Olórin
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:12 AM
Isn't the fact you're all arguing so hard about this, the fact you felt the need to start this evidence that the onus really is you (plural) to prove Henin is the better player. The burden of proof really is on you. I haven't seen anything here so far that convincingly suggests that Justine is ultimately is a better tennis player than Serena. When Justine comes back and fails to attain the level of tennis she showed at the US Open 2007, at least this debate will be forever quelled. :)

And really, outside of the forums this isn't even a debate. Serena is in a league of greatness above Justine. A more fitting comparison would be Justine with Hingis or Venus. We haven't had enough of those lately. Oh wait. :lol:

debby
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:17 AM
Such a shame players like Navratilova King and Mc Enroe think that Henin is a better player than Serena. You can't say they don't know something in tennis :) .

zvonarevarulz
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:18 AM
Btw. I'm not a fan of either:lol:
Both were/are amazing players though:worship::bowdown:

Olórin
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:18 AM
Such a shame players like Navratilova King and Mc Enroe think that Henin is a better player than Serena. You can't say they don't know something in tennis :) .

Links? Or shut up.

AcesHigh
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:22 AM
It would have been interesting if Henin had not retired. Because Justine mentally checked out and then physically left, we'll never really know what could have been.

But Serena fans seem to forget that it wasnt until Justine retired that Serena returned to #1 and collected 3 additional slams. Don't act as if Serena would have stomped all over Justine and would have had the same success b/c that's not a foregone conclusion.

Personally, I think Henin was the better TENNIS player and Serena was the better athlete and better competitor. I also think Serena is the greater champion and that's why she's still out there winning and Henin is not. Justine had enough while Serena is still hungry

dsanders06
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:27 AM
Isn't the fact you're all arguing so hard about this, the fact you felt the need to start this evidence that the onus really is you (plural) to prove Henin is the better player. The burden of proof really is on you. I haven't seen anything here so far that convincingly suggests that Justine is ultimately is a better tennis player than Serena. When Justine comes back and fails to attain the level of tennis she showed at the US Open 2007, at least this debate will be forever quelled. :)

I don't think anyone here would deny that, assuming Henin never comes back, Serena will go down as having the greater career. What many of us are saying is that, peak Henin v peak Serena, Henin wins. Obviously no-one is going to be able to prove that eitherway, the entire premise of the discussion is opinion-based. And I personally believe that Henin at her best had a superior game in every department except serve, and nothing anyone has said here has convinced me otherwise.

And while I respect your opinion that you believe Serena to be better.....

And really, outside of the forums this isn't even a debate.

.......you're just plain wrong here. I notice your flag says your British; you surely can't have failed to notice that almost every article in the mainstream British media on women's tennis in the last year has been bemoaning the state of it. Every article on a Serena victory comes with the caveat that she has poor competition following the retirement of key players, including Henin - the implication being that Serena would be having a much tougher time were Henin still around.

Miss Atomic Bomb
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:28 AM
I agree with the people who say that Serena is in a much higher league than Henin and cannot be compared. Henin should be compared to people like Maria-Jose Martinez Sanchez etc.

Olórin
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:31 AM
.......you're just plain wrong here. I notice your flag says your British; you surely can't have failed to notice that almost every article in the mainstream British media on women's tennis in the last year has been bemoaning the state of it. Every article on a Serena victory comes with the caveat that she has poor competition following the retirement of key players, including Henin - the implication being that Serena would be having a much tougher time were Henin still around.

I haven't noticed that no, and even if I had, stating the obvious (i.e. Henin makes things harder for Serena) does not constitute an actual debate as who is better. To date I have never seen or heard a debate of the kind outside of these boards. This isn't Federer vs. Sampras.

As for articles bemoaning the state of women's tennis, they will always be in the british media. I tend to skip them for some actual news.

Perhaps I read the wrong papers, but I rarely see Henin mentioned at all, she often seems to fly under the radar and get low media coverage relative to many european countries. Probably due to the fact she never won Wimbledon.

Donny
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:32 AM
It would have been interesting if Henin had not retired. Because Justine mentally checked out and then physically left, we'll never really know what could have been.

But Serena fans seem to forget that it wasnt until Justine retired that Serena returned to #1 and collected 3 additional slams. Don't act as if Serena would have stomped all over Justine and would have had the same success b/c that's not a foregone conclusion.

Personally, I think Henin was the better TENNIS player and Serena was the better athlete and better competitor. I also think Serena is the greater champion and that's why she's still out there winning and Henin is not. Justine had enough while Serena is still hungry

And of course, the attributes needed to play tennis do not include athleticism or desire to compete...

Jesus, do you even read the words you type?

debby
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:33 AM
Links? Or shut up.

When Henin announced her retirement, Billie Jean King has said :

Tennis legend Billie Jean King said: "Pound for pound Justine is the greatest player of her generation. "

Link 1 (http://www.expatica.com/be/health_fitness/fitness_sports/Top-tennis-players-praise-retiring-Henin_12059.html)

Justine has an impressive variety of shots and is best-known for her single-backhand, characterised by John McEnroe as “the best of any player in the world”

Link 2 (http://www.belgiumtheplaceto.be/famous_belgians_justine_henin.php)

“Justine is one the few players I’d pay to watch,” said Martina Navratilova. Comparing Henin to Roger Federer, the top-ranked men’s player, Navratilova added: “To me, she and Roger are the same type of player, she’s just the women’s version.”

Link 3 (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/05/sports/tennis/05tennis.html)


:D

debby
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:34 AM
I agree with the people who say that Serena is in a much higher league than Henin and cannot be compared. Henin should be compared to people like Maria-Jose Martinez Sanchez etc.

Strange that Serena defeated a cheater, a thing she failed six years ago.

Apoleb
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:35 AM
:lol:

Loving this. Keep it up people.

It's obvious that there many unanswered questions. We should be getting answers starting from next year.

Olórin
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:35 AM
What many of us are saying is that, peak Henin v peak Serena, Henin wins. Obviously no-one is going to be able to prove that eitherway, the entire premise of the discussion is opinion-based. And I personally believe that Henin at her best had a superior game in every department except serve,

I just don't know what makes you people think this though? :lol:

Donny
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:36 AM
When Henin announced her retirement, Billie Jean King has said :

Tennis legend Billie Jean King said: "Pound for pound Justine is the greatest player of her generation. "

So in other words, she's the best small player of her generation. AMAZE.

Justine has an impressive variety of shots and is best-known for her single-backhand, characterised by John McEnroe as “the best of any player in the world”


Too bad Serena doesn't have a single handed backhand...

“Justine is one the few players I’d pay to watch,” said Martina Navratilova. Comparing Henin to Roger Federer, the top-ranked men’s player, Navratilova added: “To me, she and Roger are the same type of player, she’s just the women’s version.”




:D

This doesn't say anything about quality.

Olórin
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:37 AM
When Henin announced her retirement, Billie Jean King has said :

Tennis legend Billie Jean King said: "Pound for pound Justine is the greatest player of her generation. "

Link 1 (http://www.expatica.com/be/health_fitness/fitness_sports/Top-tennis-players-praise-retiring-Henin_12059.html)

Justine has an impressive variety of shots and is best-known for her single-backhand, characterised by John McEnroe as “the best of any player in the world”

Link 2 (http://www.belgiumtheplaceto.be/famous_belgians_justine_henin.php)

“Justine is one the few players I’d pay to watch,” said Martina Navratilova. Comparing Henin to Roger Federer, the top-ranked men’s player, Navratilova added: “To me, she and Roger are the same type of player, she’s just the women’s version.”

Link 3 (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/05/sports/tennis/05tennis.html)

:D

Yes these quotes on Justine's backhand and style of play define Justine as better than Serena, good research, your PHD is the post.

(I already addressed BJK's backhanded compliment as to Justine's fragiltiy.)
Next. :lol:

Miss Atomic Bomb
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:38 AM
So in other words, she's the best small player of her generation. AMAZE.



Too bad Serena doesn't have a single handed backhand...



This doesn't say anything about quality.

Exactly, none of these articles say that Justine was better than Serena. Learn to assimilate :weirdo:

Olórin
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:39 AM
It's obvious that there many unanswered questions. We should be getting answers starting from next year.

Yes it's to be expected when someone retires at number one. Looking forward to Justine's return.

Miss Atomic Bomb
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:39 AM
. What many SOME of us are saying is that, peak Henin v peak Serena, Henin wins. Obviously no-one is going to be able to prove that eitherway, the entire premise of the discussion is opinion-based. And I personally believe that Henin at her best had a superior game in every department except serve, and nothing anyone has said here has convinced me otherwise.
.

Edited for you.

As Majority of people think Serena was better http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=364750&page=8&highlight=henin+serena

debby
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:43 AM
You really are bitter that everybody is not like Evert to worship Serena :lol: :tape:

I can't believe you are actually saying the statement from Navratilova "Justine is the Roger's women's version" means nothing. Roger is what, the goat, and he has a great technique. :weirdo:

I have other news also, but I don't want to search them because they have said so much on Henin's great tennis. Mac Enroe always said Henin was a great player, and he was crazy about her single-handed backhand.

Matt01
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:44 AM
This makes zero sense. A career is an ENTIRE career, not the highlights of a career. For the majority of the time Henin was playing, Serena was the better player and had better results.


Oh really?

Justine's career started in 1999 and ended in 2008.

1999: Serena better player.
2000: Serena
2001: Serena
2002: Serena
2003: Justime better player that year.
2004: Justine
2005: Justine
2006: Justine
2007: Justine

So for the majority of the years Justine did play tennis, she was a better player than Serena. :lol:

Miss Atomic Bomb
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:45 AM
You really are bitter that everybody is not like Evert to worship Serena :lol: :tape:

I can't believe you are actually saying the statement from Navratilova "Justine is the Roger's women's version" means nothing. Roger is what, the goat, and he has a great technique. :weirdo:

I have other news also, but I don't want to search them because they have said so much on Henin's great tennis. Mac Enroe always said Henin was a great player, and he was crazy about her single-handed backhand.

Navratilova also said that Justine was the best Grass-courter of the active players (and Serena and Venus were active then)

dsanders06
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:45 AM
Edited for you.

As Majority of people think Serena was better http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=364750&page=8&highlight=henin+serena

Well, the poster was directing his post directly at people arguing that Henin was better, so the "us" in "many of us" meant "many of the people saying Henin is better". So maybe it's you who should "learn to assimilate". :p

debby
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:46 AM
Navratilova also said that Justine was the best Grass-courter of the active players (and Serena and Venus were active then)

She has a game well-suited to grass, it is a big failure to have never won Wimbledon.

Olórin
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:46 AM
You really are bitter that everybody is not like Evert to worship Serena :lol: :tape:

I can't believe you are actually saying the statement from Navratilova "Justine is the Roger's women's version" means nothing. Roger is what, the goat, and he has a great technique. :weirdo:

I have other news also, but I don't want to search them because they have said so much on Henin's great tennis. Mac Enroe always said Henin was a great player, and he was crazy about her single-handed backhand.

It's just your extrapolations from these statements were completely ludicrous. I think Justine is the Roger's version of women's tennis. It's not necessarily a good thing, as it didn't translate to 6 Wimbledons. It's just a shame for her that she wasn't the Serena of women's tennis.

Pureracket
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:48 AM
wimbledon

T-GIRL87
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:50 AM
I just think that in the same way that Justine has kept Serena from winnig majors, so have several other players such as Capriati, Venus, Hingis, Davenport, kuznetsova, and Sharapova. Both Venus and Sharapova have beaten Serena in major finals, convincingly, how are those losses less significant than the one's she suffered against Justine in 2007? At wimbeldon in 2007, given Serena' condition, any formidable opponent would of been able to have taken her out, and even had she gone to the finals, its unlikely that she would of had a chance against Venus, who could of easily exposed her poor movement as Justine did. Serena playing less than her best, can lose multiple times to the likes of Justine, Dementieva, Venus, and Kutnetsova on any given day, shes not invincible, what's seperates her from everyone else in her mental fortitude and fighting prowess in the big moments.

Miss Atomic Bomb
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:51 AM
She has a game well-suited to grass, it is a big failure to have never won Wimbledon.

So far you (and your fellow mates) have made the following statements -

She was the better player but she has lesser slams than Serena
She was the better player but Serena leads the H2H
And now you are saying that she had a game well-suited for grass, but she never won wimbledon

:rolls: Talk about hollow statements :haha:

Donny
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:51 AM
Oh really?

Justine's career started in 1999 and ended in 2008.

1999: Serena better player.
2000: Serena
2001: Serena
2002: Serena
2003: Justime better player that year.
2004: Justine
2005: Justine
2006: Justine
2007: Justine

So for the majority of the years Justine did play tennis, she was a better player than Serena. :lol:

Justine retired on December 31, 2007 at 11:59 PM? News to me. I could've sworn she played in 2008...

debby
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:51 AM
It's just your extrapolations from these statements were completely ludicrous. I think Justine is the Roger's version of women's tennis. It's not necessarily a good thing, as it didn't translate to 6 Wimbledons. It's just a shame for her that she wasn't the Serena of women's tennis.

:weirdo: I never said it was a FACT, but that some great players who have some acknowledge in tennis would agree with me about Henin's style of game, tennis wise.

Get it over, Serena's fans, I know very well Justine will never match Serena's greaaaat accomplishements but I have the right to think Justine is better IN TENNIS WISE and I am not the only one, that's proving I am not too delusional because legend tennis players have so much respect for her.

Miss Atomic Bomb
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:55 AM
Justine retired on December 31, 2007 at 11:59 PM? News to me. I could've sworn she played in 2008...

Exactly, they are ready to consider years like 2006, when Serena barely played anything, but will not consider years like 2008 when Justine still played half the season and won 2 titles :haha: :lol: Hypocrites.

dsanders06
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:55 AM
Justine retired on December 31, 2007 at 11:59 PM? News to me. I could've sworn she played in 2008...

OK, they were exactly equal in 2008 until Henin retired, with both making the Qtrs in Australia. Nothing outside the Slams matters, after all.

Apoleb
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:56 AM
So in other words, she's the best small player of her generation. AMAZE.


It means if you normalize for height, Justine is the best player in her generation. Obviously that puts some important aspects of tennis into perspective. Like shotmaking and variety.

Miss Atomic Bomb
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:57 AM
OK, they were exactly equal in 2008 until Henin retired, with both making the Qtrs in Australia. Nothing outside the Slams matters, after all.

Serena also won US open in 2008 (IF you are going to count the only parts where Justine played, then might as well discoutn later part of 2003, 2006. 2005, sicne serena didnt play then either :shrug:)

Donny
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:57 AM
OK, they were exactly equal in 2008 until Henin retired, with both making the Qtrs in Australia. Nothing outside the Slams matters, after all.

Agreed. It's pretty clear then that 11>7, no? Glad we've came to a resolution so quickly.

debby
Sep 11th, 2009, 12:58 AM
So far you (and your fellow mates) have made the following statements -

She was the better player but she has lesser slams than Serena
She was the better player but Serena leads the H2H
And now youa re sayinf that she had a game well suited for grass, but she never won wimbledon

:rolls: Talk about hollow statements :haha:

Have you ever heard about technique ? Talent ? Tennis wise ? Power does not make everything.

I am sick of you, we can't have a good debate with you, I know very well I am biased but you are deluded to belittle Henin's great talent. That's laughable.

AcesHigh is a Veeliever, he didn't even like Henin, but at least, he is not trying to belittle Henin at all.

You know, I am the first to say Serena is the greatest of her generation, she was amazing at Aussie Open 2007, Miami 07 (that final was so heart breaking but I am not too biased to treat her of lucky because one of these matchpoints had a netcord, but it was too high and powerful to be evident, contrary to "cheater !!!!!111" 6 years later) , she deserves all her Slams, she is gonna win against Kim ( :sobbing: I love Kim ).
But I think it is not asking too much to give some credit to Henin for her rivality against Serena. She was the only one challenging Serena the last few years.

Miss Atomic Bomb
Sep 11th, 2009, 01:01 AM
Have you ever heard about technique ? Talent ? Tennis wise ? Power does not make everything.

I am sick of you, we can't have a good debate with you, I know very well I am biased but you are deluded to belittle Henin's great talent. That's laughable.

AcesHigh is a Veeliever, he didn't even like Henin, but at least, he is not trying to belittle Henin at all.

You know, I am the first to say Serena is the greatest of her generation, she was amazing at Aussie Open 2007, Miami 07 (that final was so heart breaking but I am not too biased to treat her of lucky because one of these matchpoints had a netcord, but it was too high and powerful to be evident, contrary to "cheater !!!!!111" 6 years later) , she deserves all her Slams, she is gonna win against Kim ( :sobbing: I love Kim ).
But I think it is not asking too much to give some credit to Henin for her rivality against Serena. She was the only one challenging Serena the last few years.

Well you crediting Serena is nothing out of the ordinary, she never cheated and deserves every bit of that respect. I hate Hingis mroe than Henin, but I do give credit to her wherever it is necessary, and she deserves it. Henin on the other hand, deserves none. She had talent yes, but to be a sportsperson, you need to have sportsmanship.

And Asseshigh is a pompous holier-than-thou Serena hater, so I dont care what he says.

Matt01
Sep 11th, 2009, 01:02 AM
Serena also won US open in 2008 (IF you are going to count the only parts where Justine played, then might as well discoutn later part of 2003, 2006. 2005, sicne serena didnt play then either :shrug:)


What are you? 5 years old? Leave this thread already you are embarassing :o

serenafan08
Sep 11th, 2009, 01:03 AM
:lol: Wow...as always a Justine vs. Serena debate goes up in smoke. Listen - they are both great players. Can we not just appreciate them for what they bring to the table instead of bickering about which one is better? Whether their press conferences reveal it or not, Justine and Serena do respect each other. I think we should do the same - no matter which one you're a fan of.

Donny
Sep 11th, 2009, 01:03 AM
It means if you normalize for height, Justine is the best player in her generation. Obviously that puts some important aspects of tennis into perspective. Like shotmaking and variety.

And if you normalize for height, I'm a better basketball player than Shaquille O'Neil.

Oh wait, what? You mean physical attributes matter in sports?

BuTtErFrEnA
Sep 11th, 2009, 01:03 AM
all the talent in the world and STILL is losing the slam and h-2-h battle vs the talentless, onlywinsbecause of power serena j williams... :worship:

Miss Atomic Bomb
Sep 11th, 2009, 01:03 AM
What are you? 5 years old? Leave this thread already you are embarassing :o

Translated as : "Please leave, our hypocrisy cannot take it anymore."

Miss Atomic Bomb
Sep 11th, 2009, 01:05 AM
Agreed. It's pretty clear then that 11>7, no? Glad we've came to a resolution so quickly.

And if you normalize for height, I'm a better basketball player than Shaquille O'Neil.

Oh wait, what? You mean physical attributes matter in sports?

Owned :rolls:

Apoleb
Sep 11th, 2009, 01:06 AM
And if you normalize for height, I'm a better basketball player than Shaquille O'Neil.

Oh wait, what? You mean physical attributes matter in sports?

If it was silly to normalize, BJK wouldn't have made the point anyway. It was only to show that Justine has more skill than Serena. She's a better shotmaker and she has more variety. Yes, you could have more skill than O'Neil? So what. It's not like people respect him for his 3 points throws success.

dsanders06
Sep 11th, 2009, 01:08 AM
Agreed. It's pretty clear then that 11>7, no? Glad we've came to a resolution so quickly.

Again, I don't think anyone here is saying Henin's actual ACHIEVEMENTS are better than Serena's. They're not. Again, what people ARE saying is that they think Henin's best tennis > Serena's best tennis.

debby
Sep 11th, 2009, 01:08 AM
Well you crediting Serena is nothing out of the ordinary, she never cheated and deserves every bit of that respect. I hate Hingis mroe than Henin, but I do give credit to her wherever it is necessary, and she deserves it. Henin on the other hand, deserves none. She had talent yes, but to be a sportsperson, you need to have sportsmanship.

And Asseshigh is a pompous holier-than-thou Serena hater, so I dont care what he says.

I feel so sorry for you to judge people you don't even know and to hate them.

BuTtErFrEnA
Sep 11th, 2009, 01:09 AM
and yes that skill has OBVIOUSLY resulted in her winning all 4 slams (in a row or in her career, and even the 1 time on her "worst" surface), 11 slams, winning h-2-h vs the majority of the tour, and winning h-2-h with all her biggest rivals...

shell
Sep 11th, 2009, 01:09 AM
I seriously wish people on this board would use some factual basis for their opinions and not just gloat about who they "like" better. I'll give an opinion, just because I'm hysterically bored at home and I have nothing better to do.

One, I think the question is extremely vague - what does 'better player' even mean? Does it mean who hits the best shot, 'technically'? Does it mean who's won the most majors? Does it mean who's the greatest player in terms of weeks at number one? I mean, there are so many ways to take this question. I'll take 'better player' to mean who would've won more matches against each other at their peak - "peak" meaning a full year of tennis, not just one match where the player played unbelievable tennis.

Whoever says that Serena is playing just about as well as she was playing in 2007 is completely wrong. Just look at the way she’s currently hitting the ball – she wasn’t doing any of that in 2007, apart from the final of the Australian Open. It’s two different Serena’s for me. Her movement and mind are on completely different sides of the spectrum.

Whoever wants to use the 2008 Miami match to solve this debate is also misled. It’s clear that Justine wasn’t in any ‘champion’ mode. She played like a dog. That was one match where Serena literally had to stand there and get the ball in. Sure, there were impressive points hit by Serena, but it isn’t easy to play well and high in confidence when your opponent is missing every in the book.

Whoever wants to use Serena’s domination until the knee injury in 2003 is foolish. Justine in 2007 was completely different than in 2003. She had more power and much more confidence. Yes, it’s true that the 2003 US Open would’ve probably been much more difficult for Justine to win if Serena and/or Venus were in the draw, but that’s a mute point because they were both injured.

Serena’s serve is much better. Her movement from the 2002 season was as good, if not better and more explosive and athletic than Justine’s in 2007. Not to mention she just has more ‘guts’, in my opinion. She just has that thing that you need to be a huge force. I feel like Justine gave too much in her matches against players like Serena and Venus, Jennifer and Sharapova that that’s what ended up draining her. She just had no more. Serena just goes and goes and goes.

I’ve always said that the Serena from late 2001 to 2003 is the greatest tennis player of all-time. I have no doubts in my mind that she’d be on the winning end of almost every match she plays against anyone else, including Henin. If I were going on peaks, I’d say Serena wins 8 out of 10 times.

This is a good post, and a fair one. I may not agree on all points, but it is refreshing to see something besides "favorite talk" come into play. Well done and thank you. I lean a bit more towards some points for Justine, but I certainly see your points.

Apoleb
Sep 11th, 2009, 01:09 AM
Again, I don't think anyone here is saying Henin's actual ACHIEVEMENTS are better than Serena's. They're not. Again, what people ARE saying is that they think Henin's best tennis > Serena's best tennis.

You know, those same people will argue that Serena> Graf & Navratilova despite the fact that she has far lesser achievements. Go figure.

BuTtErFrEnA
Sep 11th, 2009, 01:11 AM
Again, I don't think anyone here is saying Henin's actual ACHIEVEMENTS are better than Serena's. They're not. Again, what people ARE saying is that they think Henin's best tennis > Serena's best tennis.

obviously not since serena leads the h-2-h and it took serena being way off her game in 07 for jh to finally win a match off clay....

dsanders06
Sep 11th, 2009, 01:13 AM
You know, those same people will argue that Serena> Graf & Navratilova despite the fact that she has far lesser achievements. Go figure.

Haha yeah I pointed that out earlier. It amazes me how Serena fans think they can pick and choose what statistics are relevant based solely on whether they favour Serena (whether Slam totals are the be-all and end-all, whether non-Slam events are relevant).

tennislover
Sep 11th, 2009, 01:13 AM
But 11 slam singles titles > 7 slam singles titles is a difficult arguement to overcome.




right.

on the other hand, Navratilova who was hugely better than Graf in terms of quality of game, won 4 GS less than the German player, so.... :scratch:

debby
Sep 11th, 2009, 01:13 AM
obviously not since serena leads the h-2-h and it took serena being way off her game in 07 for jh to finally win a match off clay....

I thought only Slams count ? So Justine is leading "the true H2H" :kiss:

Off to bed. :wavey:

Donny
Sep 11th, 2009, 01:13 AM
If it was silly to normalize, BJK wouldn't have made the point anyway. It was only to show that Justine has more skill than Serena. Yes, you could have more skill than O'Neil? So what. It's not like people respect him for his 3 points throws success.

People make those statements to emphasize how much they've accomplished at a physical disadvantage, in the same way people marvel at wheelchair tennis players. That doesn't speak to overall quality.

I could just as easily say, "if you normalize for skill, Karlovic is the best player ever." But that'd be silly, because physical ability is as important as "skill" is. Ignoring, of course, that the vast majority of the things you attribute to "skill"- muscle memory, timing, etc.- are physical abilities in and of themselves.

As for Shaq, the average 1 or 2 on a good high school team has better hands than he does. But that doesn't matter, because he's 7 goddamn feet tall.

Tennis is the ONLY sport where supposed fans try so obsessively to dissect physical ability from so called 'real' skills. Odd phenomenon, to say the least.

BuTtErFrEnA
Sep 11th, 2009, 01:14 AM
You know, those same people will argue that Serena> Graf & Navratilova despite the fact that she has far lesser achievements. Go figure.

is that so??? as far as i recall a whole lot of serena fans never said she was greater than either, but some argued that she should be in the discussion with them as greatest should she even reach near their numbers...

Matt01
Sep 11th, 2009, 01:15 AM
obviously not since serena leads the h-2-h and it took serena being way off her game in 07 for jh to finally win a match off clay....


You'll get over that loss sometime :hug:

BuTtErFrEnA
Sep 11th, 2009, 01:15 AM
I thought only Slams count ? So Justine is leading "the true H2H" :kiss:

Off to bed. :wavey:

they do...so 11>>>>>>>>>>>7 if my maths is correct :lol:

dsanders06
Sep 11th, 2009, 01:15 AM
obviously not since serena leads the h-2-h and it took serena being way off her game in 07 for jh to finally win a match off clay....

Well, personally, I don't see ANY difference at all between how Serena played in 2007 and how she plays now. She was serving great then and is still serving great now, her groundstrokes were relatively conservative then with the odd spectacular winner thrown in and are the same now, her movement was very streaky then and is still streaky now.

(And again, Henin leads the H2H in Slams 4-2 - and Slams are all that count, right?)

debby
Sep 11th, 2009, 01:15 AM
Haha yeah I pointed that out earlier. It amazes me how Serena fans think they can pick and choose what statistics are relevant based solely on whether they favour Serena (whether Slam totals are the be-all and end-all, whether non-Slam events are relevant).

They seriously think Serena is the GOAT or something. It is too shocking. Martina Navratilova and Steffi Graf are GOATS (and still, I may say Navratilova..).

Apoleb
Sep 11th, 2009, 01:16 AM
People make those statements to emphasize how much they've accomplished at a physical disadvantage, in the same way people marvel at wheelchair tennis players. That doesn't speak to overall quality.

I could just as easily say, "if you normalize for skill, Karlovic is the best player ever." But that'd be silly, because physical ability is as important as "skill" is. Ignoring, of course, that the vast majority of the things you attribute to "skill"- muscle memory, timing, etc.- are physical abilities in and of themselves.

As for Shaq, the average 1 or 2 on a good high school team has better hands than he does. But that doesn't matter, because he's 7 goddamn feet tall.

Tennis is the ONLY sport where supposed fans try so obsessively to dissect physical ability from so called 'real' skills. Odd phenomenon, to say the least.

It's not odd at all. For you this is all about who wins the matches. For other people, it's a lot more. It matters to me that Justine has more skill. And that's why she's my favorite player. And that's why BJK made that particular comment. She's not dumb. Bottom point, I believe that Serena's physical stature is her only advantage against Justine. It allows her to get more power on serve and on her ground strokes. And Justine has shown that she could even overcome that.

Donny
Sep 11th, 2009, 01:17 AM
You know, those same people will argue that Serena> Graf & Navratilova despite the fact that she has far lesser achievements. Go figure.

Henin's entire career is encompassed in about half of Serena's. They were playing during the SAME EXACT TIME. Yet Serena, in that period from January 2001 to May 2008, accomplished more than Henin did. This is nowhere enar arguing the overall achievements of two people who peaked decades apart.

debby
Sep 11th, 2009, 01:18 AM
It's not odd at all. For you this is all about who wins the matches. For other people, it's a lot more. It matters to me that Justine has more skill. And that's why she's my favorite player. And that's why BJK made that particular comment. She's not dumb. Bottom point, I believe that Serena's physical stature is her only advantage against Justine. It allows her to get more power on serve and on her ground strokes. And Justine has shown that she could even overcome that.

That's why I started to love tennis :sobbing: when I saw Henin for the first time at Roland Garros, I felt exactly you are saying.

dsanders06
Sep 11th, 2009, 01:21 AM
Yet Serena, in that period from January 2001 to May 2008, accomplished more than Henin did

Eh? Both of them won 7 Slams in that time. And Henin made 11 Slam finals to Serena's 9.

RVD
Sep 11th, 2009, 01:22 AM
Consider that it is far likelier that the limitation lies with you, rather than others. YOU can't see it. Fine. But 11 slam singles titles > 7 slam singles titles is a difficult arguement to overcome.

As for your other arguements, your problem is that you're trying to relegate the arguement to a narrow period in the careers of two players of roughly equal age. If I narrow the arguement to 2002-3, Henin had already made a lam final by then, but who was having better results? Or, to take two other players, who was better in 2006? Elena Dementieva or Venus Williams?

Had your statement been, 'there was a period in Justine Henin's career when she was better than Serena' I would have to agree. This is also true of Venus, Jennifer Capriati,Martina Hingis and Amelie Mauresmo. They all had periods, lasting a year or more, than they were better than Serena. AFTER Serena won her first slam. The difference with Henin is that when she saw she wans't going to be the best anymore, she retired.

Serena has persevered through every period of somebody else seeming better for a while. And look who's on top now.

NOTE: I could as easily change that statement to 'Serena was infinitely better'.NOTE: In 2008, she beat Henin 6-2 6-0, possibly contributing to Henin decision to retire instead of finding her game again.:worship: :worship:

The thread should have ended with this post right here.

What a ridiculous question, and an equally ridiculous argument the OP posed.

Seven pages later, and it's still a question as to which is better...11 slams titles, where one champion is still accepting all challengers. And the other is ...well....still in the "QUIT" stage of her illustrious career after 7 slams, and after getting her ass handed to her 3 times before deciding that it was a good time to leave.

Matt01
Sep 11th, 2009, 01:24 AM
Henin's entire career is encompassed in about half of Serena's. They were playing during the SAME EXACT TIME. Yet Serena, in that period from January 2001 to May 2008, accomplished more than Henin did. This is nowhere enar arguing the overall achievements of two people who peaked decades apart.


I think it is clear that Henin peaked somewhere between 2003-2007. Was she better than Serena in that timeframe? Clearly, yes.
Now I'm waiting that someone mentions Serena's horible "injuries" as excuses :)

BuTtErFrEnA
Sep 11th, 2009, 01:25 AM
:rolls: THAT'S the argument??? oh come on...you just keep proving how biased you are with each post when you started out "oh i don't like either i'm just wondering this bla bla bla" lol

1. if you can't see a difference in how serena was playing then and how she is playing now, then you obviously aren't as objective as you want to claim you are...but continue on lol...serena has always had a great serve, hence it is the one part of her game which will be there despite anything....next thing you're going to tell me is because she could serve in 2006 she plays no different :lol: on that token i see no difference between how jh playing from 2001 - 2008

2. the slams are all that matter...however i never discount a h-2-h just because it wasn't a slam, unless it's like the bammer h-2-h...but then i can argue that jh's first win came when she admitted that she used gamesmanship to win just because it was serena (which all her fans seem to ignore surprisingly) and her last 3 wins came against a 2nd rate serena who was now beginning to find her game after being off for almost 2 seasons...but you all cling to those wins because it validates henin then go ahead :lol: much like in the same way jh won RG 05 and did nothing else so you want to disregard all those losses, i choose to say AO 07 was the oddity in that year for her simply because serena was dedicating that to her dead sister...

but hey you can keep trying lol

Donny
Sep 11th, 2009, 01:26 AM
It's not odd at all. For you this is all about who wins the matches. For other people, it's a lot more. It matters to me that Justine has more skill. And that's why she's my favorite player. And that's why BJK made that particular comment. She's not dumb. Bottom point, I believe that Serena's physical stature is her only advantage against Justine. It allows her to get more power on serve and on her ground strokes. And Justine has shown that she could even overcome that.

It is odd, actually.

A fit male of above average strength could not hit the ball like Serena does. I'm 6 feet four; I know I culd never hit a serve as well as Serena, no matter how hard I work at it. Heck, Andy Murray, who's around the same size as me, can't hit a second serve as well as Serena.

So what is it? What separates the average male, who's as big and probably as strong as Serena, from hitting 120mph serves? I'd have to imagine it's what you call 'skill', right?

Conversely, all the 'skill' in the world wouldn't help Henin is she was, say, 4 foot 6 instead of five foot 6, would it? If she had horrible hand eye coordination, all the talent stored away in her brain wouldn't help her strike her one handed backhand.

You can try to attempt to separate the two, but in the end, you'll just see what you want to see, not the actual truth.

Matt01
Sep 11th, 2009, 01:28 AM
2. the slams are all that matter...however i never discount a h-2-h just because it wasn't a slam, unless it's like the bammer h-2-h...but then i can argue that jh's first win came when she admitted that she used gamesmanship to win just because it was serena (which all her fans seem to ignore surprisingly) and her last 3 wins came against a 2nd rate serena who was now beginning to find her game after being off for almost 2 seasons...but you all cling to those wins because it validates henin then go ahead :lol: much like in the same way jh won RG 05 and did nothing else so you want to disregard all those losses, i choose to say AO 07 was the oddity in that year for her simply because serena was dedicating that to her dead sister...


I see the excuses are flying already. This paragraph is full of them :lol:

dsanders06
Sep 11th, 2009, 01:29 AM
however i never discount a h-2-h just because it wasn't a slam, unless it's like the bammer h-2-h...

Got to admit, I love how you don't even pretend to hide the fact you're not attempting to be logical. You don't discount a H2H, unless it's "like the bammer h-2-h" i.e. one that doesn't favour Serena. Awesome.

BuTtErFrEnA
Sep 11th, 2009, 01:29 AM
Eh? Both of them won 7 Slams in that time. And Henin made 11 Slam finals to Serena's 9.

so serena won 7 of 9, and henin won 7 of 11, but that ratio makes her better?? :rolls:

Apoleb
Sep 11th, 2009, 01:30 AM
It is odd, actually.

A fit male of above average strength could not hit the ball like Serena does. I'm 6 feet four; I know I culd never hit a serve as well as Serena, no matter how hard I work at it. Heck, Andy Murray, who's around the same size as me, can't hit a second serve as well as Serena.

So what is it? What separates the average male, who's as big and probably as strong as Serena, from hitting 120mph serves? I'd have to imagine it's what you call 'skill', right?

Conversely, all the 'skill' in the world wouldn't help Henin is she was, say, 4 foot 6 instead of five foot 6, would it? If she had horrible hand eye coordination, all the talent stored away in her brain wouldn't help her strike her one handed backhand.

You can try to attempt to separate the two, but in the end, you'll just see what you want to see, not the actual truth.

Why are you comparing yourself to Serena? :lol::lol::lol: Pretty useless and irrelevant comparison, as I never said that taller people necessarily win the matches.

Serena has tons of skills herself, which I respect a lot. However, as I said, the only reason she's able to win matches against Justine (not you, not Murray..etc) is her height advantage which gives her an ability to hit with more power, especially on the serve. Everywhere else Justine is either equal or superior. She's a better shotmaker, and able to produce every shot in the book from the baseline. Be it flat with power, spin, angles, slices...etc. She's a better volleyer too. Despite the fact that she's 167cm, she consistently hits serves in the 110 mph range. All those observations mean something. Just my own opinion, of course. You're free to disagree. But BJK agrees with me too, and she also thinks that's important. :)

Donny
Sep 11th, 2009, 01:31 AM
Eh? Both of them won 7 Slams in that time. And Henin made 11 Slam finals to Serena's 9.

Holding all four majors at once is better than seven slams that don't include Wimbledon.