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Bijoux0021
Aug 19th, 2009, 09:21 PM
http://www.rr.com/sports/sports/article/rr/9003/8676710/IAAF_asks_South_Africa_for_gender_test_on_Semenya/1

South Africa to test gender of 800-meter runner

Published - Aug 19 2009 02:29PM EDT

By RYAN LUCAS - Associated Press Writer

South Africa's track and field federation had been asked to conduct a gender test on an 800-meter runner amid concerns she does not meet the requirements to compete as a woman.

http://i25.tinypic.com/1z4ejcz.jpg
(AP Photo/Anja Niedringhaus)

South Africa's Caster Semenya after
competing in a Women's 800m semifinal at the
World Athletics Championships in Berlin
on Monday, Aug. 17, 2009.

Eighteen-year-old Caster Semenya is a favorite in Wednesday's 800 final at the world championships.

The world track and field federation requested the gender test about three weeks ago, after Semenya burst onto the scene by improving her personal bests in the 800 and 1,500 by huge margins.

IAAF spokesman Nick Davies said the "extremely complex, difficult" test has been started but that the results were not expected for weeks.

Semenya qualified for Wednesday's final with a top time of 1 minute, 58.64 seconds. She posted the world's best time this year of 1:56.72 three weeks ago at the African junior championships in Bambous, Mauritius.

Davies stressed that "it's a medical issue, not an issue of cheating."

The verification requires a physical medical evaluation, and includes reports from a gynecologist, endocrinologist, psychologist, an internal medicine specialist and an expert on gender.

"So we're talking about reports that are very long, very time consuming," Davies said.

South Africa team manager Phiwe Mlangeni-Tsholetsane would not confirm or deny that Semenya was having a gender test, but said "there was no cheating on our part."

"We entered Caster as a woman and we want to keep it that way," Mlangeni-Tsholetsane said. "Our conscience is clear in terms of Caster. We have no reservations at all about that."

It was not clear what would happen if Semenya were to medal in Wednesday's final and the test results determine she does not meet the requirements to compete.

"I can't say that if 'X' happens in the future that we will, for example, retroactively strip results. It's legally very complex," Davies said.

"If there's a problem and it turns out that there's been a fraud ... that someone has changed sex, then obviously it would be much easier to strip results," Davies added. "However, if it's a natural thing and the athlete has always thought she's a woman or been a woman, it's not exactly cheating."

He said a decision in such instances is "done on a case by case basis."

"It's something that would have to be considered by the legal experts at that time," Davies said.

~Cherry*Blossom~
Aug 19th, 2009, 09:25 PM
Whilst they are at it they need to test this woMAN
http://rapidas.webcindario.com/t2009-krivoshapka.jpg

Bijoux0021
Aug 19th, 2009, 09:29 PM
They both look like men to me.:tape:

Tennis-Chick
Aug 19th, 2009, 09:39 PM
Do they have any reason behind testing her, other than that people think she looks like a man?

The Canadian hurdler Priscilla Lopes looks more like a man to me, her shoulders :eek:

mykarma
Aug 19th, 2009, 09:49 PM
http://www.rr.com/sports/sports/article/rr/9003/8676710/IAAF_asks_South_Africa_for_gender_test_on_Semenya/1

South Africa to test gender of 800-meter runner

Published - Aug 19 2009 02:29PM EDT

By RYAN LUCAS - Associated Press Writer

South Africa's track and field federation had been asked to conduct a gender test on an 800-meter runner amid concerns she does not meet the requirements to compete as a woman.

http://i25.tinypic.com/1z4ejcz.jpg
(AP Photo/Anja Niedringhaus)

South Africa's Caster Semenya after
competing in a Women's 800m semifinal at the
World Athletics Championships in Berlin
on Monday, Aug. 17, 2009.

Eighteen-year-old Caster Semenya is a favorite in Wednesday's 800 final at the world championships.

The world track and field federation requested the gender test about three weeks ago, after Semenya burst onto the scene by improving her personal bests in the 800 and 1,500 by huge margins.

IAAF spokesman Nick Davies said the "extremely complex, difficult" test has been started but that the results were not expected for weeks.

Semenya qualified for Wednesday's final with a top time of 1 minute, 58.64 seconds. She posted the world's best time this year of 1:56.72 three weeks ago at the African junior championships in Bambous, Mauritius.

Davies stressed that "it's a medical issue, not an issue of cheating."

The verification requires a physical medical evaluation, and includes reports from a gynecologist, endocrinologist, psychologist, an internal medicine specialist and an expert on gender.

"So we're talking about reports that are very long, very time consuming," Davies said.

South Africa team manager Phiwe Mlangeni-Tsholetsane would not confirm or deny that Semenya was having a gender test, but said "there was no cheating on our part."

"We entered Caster as a woman and we want to keep it that way," Mlangeni-Tsholetsane said. "Our conscience is clear in terms of Caster. We have no reservations at all about that."

It was not clear what would happen if Semenya were to medal in Wednesday's final and the test results determine she does not meet the requirements to compete.

"I can't say that if 'X' happens in the future that we will, for example, retroactively strip results. It's legally very complex," Davies said.

"If there's a problem and it turns out that there's been a fraud ... that someone has changed sex, then obviously it would be much easier to strip results," Davies added. "However, if it's a natural thing and the athlete has always thought she's a woman or been a woman, it's not exactly cheating."

He said a decision in such instances is "done on a case by case basis."

"It's something that would have to be considered by the legal experts at that time," Davies said.
How sad.

Monica_Rules
Aug 19th, 2009, 09:56 PM
Well one of two things is happening either we have the best middle distance runner ever on our hands or she is a man. When she won the gold today she looked like she was jogging and not even trying which says to me that she can break the world record which is a suspect one as it is.

The last 800m runner i remember running 1.55 was Klepac and she was a druggie so.... go figure

Pureracket
Aug 19th, 2009, 10:00 PM
Do they have a reason to test her other than the fact she "looks" like a man?

Monica_Rules
Aug 19th, 2009, 10:03 PM
She's improver her BP by 8 seconds in the 800m in one year and shes only 18.

canuckfan
Aug 19th, 2009, 10:05 PM
Do they have a reason to test her other than the fact she "looks" like a man?

She looks like a man, talks like a man and runs like a man. She also came from nowhere in just a few months to win the world championships by 20 metres.

Apparently she was borned an hermaphrodite so it's very possible she's at least "part male".

It's pretty sad to put her through that, but it's also not fair for the other athletes to compete against her.

Monica_Rules
Aug 19th, 2009, 10:08 PM
I was thinking that she was a hemaphrodite but was actually genetically XY i.e male but had been raised female.

Surely the way to see if shes actually a male is to test her genese to see if shes XY or XX, she may even be XXY

nevetssllim
Aug 19th, 2009, 10:26 PM
She looks like a man, talks like a man and runs like a man. She also came from nowhere in just a few months to win the world championships by 20 metres.

Apparently she was borned an hermaphrodite so it's very possible she's at least "part male".

It's pretty sad to put her through that, but it's also not fair for the other athletes to compete against her.

And more importantly it's not fair on her that she has had her sex questioned in front of the whole world.

The IAAF really should have cleared this up before the champs when there were rumours.

Whatever Semenya is, she did very well to win the gold considering all of the controversies and talk about her.

homogenius
Aug 19th, 2009, 10:31 PM
And more importantly it's not fair on her that she has had her sex questioned in front of the whole world.

The IAAF really should have cleared this up before the champs when there were rumours.

Whatever Semenya is, she did very well to win the gold considering all of the controversies and talk about her.

I agree, they could have done it before.

A Magicman
Aug 19th, 2009, 10:34 PM
Has always been, will always be. Starting with the "Press Brothers"

http://visualrian.com/storage/PreviewWM/1717/04/171704.jpg

continuing with Jarmila (?) Kratochvilova

http://www.vitejte.cz/velke/13/1316_67_03.jpg

and Mutola

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,65489,00.jpg

and now that lady or lord from South Africa.

Oddly enough, it's the 800m-runners so often.

A Magicman
Aug 19th, 2009, 10:35 PM
And more importantly it's not fair on her that she has had her sex questioned in front of the whole world.

The IAAF really should have cleared this up before the champs when there were rumours.
Whatever Semenya is, she did very well to win the gold considering all of the controversies and talk about her.

This runner just surfaced like 3 weeks ago, nobody has ever heard of her before. Nobody had any time to clear this up.

nevetssllim
Aug 19th, 2009, 10:40 PM
This runner just surfaced like 3 weeks ago, nobody has ever heard of her before. Nobody had any time to clear this up.

She competed at the IAAF World Junior Champs last year and has been known to the IAAF for at least a year (she was the main picture during an article on the IAAF website in February) so I think it could have been dealt with.

Dodoboy.
Aug 19th, 2009, 10:57 PM
I actually thought she was a man!

miffedmax
Aug 19th, 2009, 11:00 PM
"I can't say that if 'X' happens in the future that we will, for example, retroactively strip results. It's legally very complex," Davies said.

It's not if "X" happens. It's if "Y" happens.

(Sorry, I couldn't resist and more than I could resist Lena's bangs).

The Dawntreader
Aug 19th, 2009, 11:03 PM
LOL at people saying Mutola was a man. She was just a unbelievable athlete. An 800m legend.

So what if someone talks like a man? Mary carillo sounds like a dude, and noone is checking between her legs:rolleyes:

Doesn't she have family anyway that could verify? This rumour seems completely unfounded.

Tripp
Aug 19th, 2009, 11:07 PM
This is just as stupid as when people said Akgul Amanmuradova was a man, too :shrug:

ElusiveChanteuse
Aug 19th, 2009, 11:09 PM
They are only questioning it after they have won something.:o

nevetssllim
Aug 19th, 2009, 11:09 PM
LOL at people saying Mutola was a man. She was just a unbelievable athlete. An 800m legend.


Completely agree. She's probably my all-time favourite athlete and her longevity was incredible. Granted she wasn't a barbie doll and was very heavily muscled (she's been like that since 14), but she's clearly a woman. Just look at her chest!


Doesn't she have family anyway that could verify? This rumour seems completely unfounded.

Apparently she was in tears to her parents and asking for them to send her birth certificate to whoever is in charge of this case (or something along those lines).

nevetssllim
Aug 19th, 2009, 11:10 PM
They are only questioning it after they have won something.:o

Probably true - I doubt anyone would care if she crashed out in the heats.

The Dawntreader
Aug 19th, 2009, 11:15 PM
Completely agree. She's probably my all-time favourite athlete and her longevity was incredible. Granted she wasn't a barbie doll and was very heavily muscled (she's been like that since 14), but she's clearly a woman. Just look at her chest!



Apparently she was in tears to her parents and asking for them to send her birth certificate to whoever is in charge of this case (or something along those lines).

It's such a sexist issue regarding a woman in tremendous physical shape.

People have to understand women are advancing in training and conditioning. They aren't the weak specimens of the 70's and 80's. It's all about bulk now, especially in middle distance.

I think this is shameful speculation. Success just can't be congratulated anymore.

Golovinjured.
Aug 19th, 2009, 11:21 PM
OMG how embarrassing for her! :sobbing:

Привет
Aug 20th, 2009, 01:38 AM
There'll be a lot of red faces if this rumour is proven to be untrue, and rightly so!

ZODIAC
Aug 20th, 2009, 03:38 AM
if they are proven wrong she must sue IAAF,thats an embarrassing situation for sure.

Infiniti2001
Aug 20th, 2009, 04:26 AM
UGH! She should have been tested before this world announcement :fiery::help:

Scotso
Aug 20th, 2009, 04:35 AM
This is just as stupid as when people said Akgul Amanmuradova was a man, too :shrug:

That was just mean fans. She wasn't quite so successful, was she?


It's such a sexist issue regarding a woman in tremendous physical shape.

People have to understand women are advancing in training and conditioning. They aren't the weak specimens of the 70's and 80's. It's all about bulk now, especially in middle distance.

I think this is shameful speculation. Success just can't be congratulated anymore.

It can be, but it can also be questioned. I don't think it's unreasonable to want things to be fair. The fact that it's taking this long to "test" her says that there's something to this, imo.

Someone so new coming on and smashing records like this is questionable. They test them for drugs, what's so terrible about testing gender? People in this thread are just trying way too hard to be politically correct. I don't see people bitching about how demeaning it is to be accused of cheating by having drug tests.

Scotso
Aug 20th, 2009, 04:36 AM
if they are proven wrong she must sue IAAF,thats an embarrassing situation for sure.

Sue them for what? Having her gender questioned? Is that seriously a crime?

qqzone
Aug 20th, 2009, 04:55 AM
woman?

Polikarpov
Aug 20th, 2009, 05:03 AM
<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Fk0Ai0fTjRY&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Fk0Ai0fTjRY&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

harloo
Aug 20th, 2009, 05:30 AM
South Africa team manager Phiwe Mlangeni-Tsholetsane would not confirm or deny that Semenya was having a gender test, but said "there was no cheating on our part."

"We entered Caster as a woman and we want to keep it that way," Mlangeni-Tsholetsane said. "Our conscience is clear in terms of Caster. We have no reservations at all about that.".
The quote from the team manager is a bit suspect. Why not vehemently deny all charges instead of giving a vague response? This is a serious accusation and I would expect the team manager to rally around this young woman. It's just strange to me he would say, "We entered Caster as a woman and we want to keep it that way".

HRHoliviasmith
Aug 20th, 2009, 05:32 AM
that picture of maria mutola scared me. i don't rembember her looking quite like that.

mandy7
Aug 20th, 2009, 05:57 AM
The should have been way more discrete about this, and if they had any doubts, they should have tested her right after her first oficial international event.

vadin124
Aug 20th, 2009, 06:22 AM
i think it's appalling that such an accusation has been made so public...

the girl is only 18 years of age, running in her first ever major championships...

she must be feeling incredibally embarassed by this, not every female athlete can be beautiful and feminine.

i'd be far far far more suspect of some of the female shot putters/discus throwers than i would of this young south african...

the cold, icy reception Semenya received when she became world champion broke my heart, especially considering she is most likely completely innocent.

now her first ever major title will forever be tinged in controversy, and she'll never get the chance again to relive it, all because of vicious rumours circulating about her just because she looks different and happens to be incredibally talented.

shame on the IAAF! :(

Wojtek
Aug 20th, 2009, 06:29 AM
Just check Jarmila Kratochvilova and Marita Koch.

http://supergigant.blox.pl/resource/marita_koch.jpg

http://supergigant.blox.pl/resource/Jarmila_Kratochvilova.jpg

http://www.google.pl/url?source=imgres&ct=tbn&q=http://srocespodogona.blox.pl/resource/kratochvilova.jpg&usg=AFQjCNH3ibpXglLU_0RKEfPhzBMVtuo9Jg

Wojtek
Aug 20th, 2009, 06:30 AM
The last photo of Kratochvilova :lol:

KoOlMaNsEaN
Aug 20th, 2009, 07:22 AM
I couldnt help but wonder if she/he is a man or close to it. I was surprised she/he didnt get a world record

eck
Aug 20th, 2009, 07:45 AM
Sad, I thought it was a case on a past winner, not one who just won a race :o
I didn't know her at all at first, but when I saw the preview on ESNews on mute, I knew straight away they she was the centre of all this brouhaha.
She has some sick abs though.

The Crow
Aug 20th, 2009, 08:32 AM
Do they have a reason to test her other than the fact she "looks" like a man?

Good question. When does the IAAF decide when to test one's gender? Surely not based on rumours/appearance/... alone?

Mike_T
Aug 20th, 2009, 10:25 AM
ffW5zeuPcds

Clearly a bloke. And the same organization that polices gender ID in this sport, also oversee the drug testing? Fills you with confidence, does it not? :rolleyes:

Monica_Rules
Aug 20th, 2009, 10:32 AM
Well thats making me a more convinced she is in fact a guy.

ZODIAC
Aug 20th, 2009, 11:13 AM
she looks so innocent in that video I hope this is cleared out and she will enjoy her running.

Marcelo.
Aug 20th, 2009, 11:17 AM
Her voice :crying2:

brickhousesupporter
Aug 20th, 2009, 11:45 AM
Yeah it looks a little suspect. I do believe that they could have gone about testing her more discretely......Since the only thing that can determine if some was a female is a chromosome test why not skip all the other formalities. I am a little concerned about the length of time it is taking for these test to be done, something must not be right.

Keegan
Aug 20th, 2009, 11:50 AM
Some women do have deep voices, and some look like men. Caster could be an unfortunate combination of the two.

However, that video has convinced me a little bit more that Caster is a man.

irma
Aug 20th, 2009, 12:19 PM
How much Y chromosome is allowed to compete in a female sport?

We had a case here in the Netherlands where Foukje Dillema was was kicked out of the sport in 1950
Fanny Blankers Koen and her husband apparently where responsible that Foukje was kicked out, because they were afraid that she would kick butt.
Foukje was androgene with some Y-chromosome in her DNA but she was definitely a woman. They researched her dna a few years ago and if she had lived now she would definitely have been allowed to compete. She felt so ashamed and humanilated and apparently never wanted to talk about it the rest of her life.

She was rehabilitated after her death and now gets the respect she deserved.
http://heroisme.web-log.nl/heroisme/images/2008/08/23/foekjedillema.jpg

Mforensic
Aug 20th, 2009, 01:12 PM
How are you rehabilitated after death?

irma
Aug 20th, 2009, 01:16 PM
How are you rehabilitated after death?

I mean that her records are back in the books again.

mykarma
Aug 20th, 2009, 01:20 PM
i think it's appalling that such an accusation has been made so public...

the girl is only 18 years of age, running in her first ever major championships...

she must be feeling incredibally embarassed by this, not every female athlete can be beautiful and feminine.

i'd be far far far more suspect of some of the female shot putters/discus throwers than i would of this young south african...

the cold, icy reception Semenya received when she became world champion broke my heart, especially considering she is most likely completely innocent.

now her first ever major title will forever be tinged in controversy, and she'll never get the chance again to relive it, all because of vicious rumours circulating about her just because she looks different and happens to be incredibally talented.

shame on the IAAF! :(

I feel so sad for her and people can be so cruel.

Crazy Canuck
Aug 20th, 2009, 01:33 PM
Do they have a reason to test her other than the fact she "looks" like a man?
That was my first question, too. Touchy subject, this. It really shouldn't have gone public unless the results were in and verified that she wasn't really a woman. Hopefully the accusations are unfounded. Either way, what a horrible thing for an 18 year old to be put through.

Joana
Aug 20th, 2009, 01:51 PM
It's not just that she looks and sounds like a man, which she does. It's also that she's only 18 with very, very little experience and she's already producing astonishing results. Any result under 1:56.00 is absolutely world class level and extremely few runners are capable of it. All things considered, there is a reason to look into it, although I agree they should have been more discrete.

The irony of all it is that last year another young runner came out of nowhere to dominate the event setting even better times than Semenya. It was the Kenyan athlete Pamela Jelimo who won the Olympic gold and the Golden League series. But since she has more feminine features nobody thought much of it. And probably if Semenya had shaved and got a more feminine haircut much of this could have been avoided.

Kart
Aug 20th, 2009, 01:52 PM
Do they have a reason to test her other than the fact she "looks" like a man?
There must be.

Otherwise something like this would never make the news (I hope.)

Viktymise
Aug 20th, 2009, 01:56 PM
Just check Jarmila Kratochvilova and Marita Koch.

http://supergigant.blox.pl/resource/marita_koch.jpg

http://supergigant.blox.pl/resource/Jarmila_Kratochvilova.jpg

http://www.google.pl/url?source=imgres&ct=tbn&q=http://srocespodogona.blox.pl/resource/kratochvilova.jpg&usg=AFQjCNH3ibpXglLU_0RKEfPhzBMVtuo9Jg

Those two were clearly doped to within an inch of their gender definitions.

irma
Aug 20th, 2009, 02:13 PM
Marita Koch gave birth so she definitely is a woman. A doped woman with maybe more testosteron in her blood as some men when she was a competive runner but still a woman;)

moby
Aug 20th, 2009, 02:22 PM
It's not just that she looks and sounds like a man, which she does. It's also that she's only 18 with very, very little experience and she's already producing astonishing results. Any result under 1:56.00 is absolutely world class level and extremely few runners are capable of it. All things considered, there is a reason to look into it, although I agree they should have been more discrete.

The irony of all it is that last year another young runner came out of nowhere to dominate the event setting even better times than Semenya. It was the Kenyan athlete Pamela Jelimo who won the Olympic gold and the Golden League series. But since she has more feminine features nobody thought much of it. And probably if Semenya had shaved and got a more feminine haircut much of this could have been avoided.The difference between Semenya and Jelimo, is not their actual times, but that Semenya shaved 10 seconds from her time. That is quite some improvement in one year. Also, Jelimo did not come out of nowhere. She was making waves in various short-distance to mid-distance events, particularly the 400, and decided to focus on the 800 eventually. This is not that different from Bolt's sudden emergence to clinch the 100, when he formerly trained for the 200 and 400. The athletic talent was there in both cases; it was just not chanelled into the optimal event.

For whatever reasons, they have deemed Semenya worthy of investigation. The manly build and deep voice are cause for suspicion, but I don't see how anyone can determine or make any sort of conclusion based on that. Phenotypic traits aren't always clear cut. Even the chromosome tests don't tell the full story. As irma pointed out, Foukje Dillema was a genetic mosaic with a mix of XX and XY chromosomes in a 3:1 ratio (thanks wikipedia) and that would have allowed her to participate under modern rules. While there probably are no clear rules on gender categorisation (it seems the way to go about business is to have a jury of experts and they vote on whether the extent of the individual's maleness would allow them to compete), some guidelines would be welcome. My guess is that the XY component would affect hormones such as testosterone, which is a natural and unintentional way of hormonal doping. In some sense the IAAF determined levels for hormones are arbitrary anyway, and I imagine that an athlete with natural levels of testosterone etc. just under the stipulated limits would have an advantage over one who is far below that limit.

I agree that the main issue here is discretion.

Joana
Aug 20th, 2009, 02:48 PM
The difference between Semenya and Jelimo, is not their actual times, but that Semenya shaved 10 seconds from her time. That is quite some improvement in one year. Also, Jelimo did not come out of nowhere. She was making waves in various short-distance to mid-distance events, particularly the 400, and decided to focus on the 800 eventually. This is not that different from Bolt's sudden emergence to clinch the 100, when he formerly trained for the 200 and 400. The athletic talent was there in both cases; it was just not chanelled into the optimal event.


I know Jelimo competed in other events, it's just that after less than a year of running 800m she came withing 0.34 of breaking Kratochvilova's record. That is just an unbelievable result. She was praised as the only one able to come close to breaking the longest standing WR in athletics. But, if she looked like Semenya I'm sure people would have thought of her differently.

Beat
Aug 20th, 2009, 03:19 PM
People have to understand women are advancing in training and conditioning. They aren't the weak specimens of the 70's and 80's. It's all about bulk now, especially in middle distance..

i also pity her that she has to go through this, but did you see semenya next to the other athletes, e.g. 2nd placed jepkosgei? surely they are all superfit and strong, but the difference was quite astonishing. and like other have said before, she's 18 y.o. so yes, it may be difficult for this particular athlete, but sexist? i don't think so.

Bijoux0021
Aug 20th, 2009, 03:24 PM
LOL at people saying Mutola was a man. She was just a unbelievable athlete. An 800m legend.

So what if someone talks like a man? Mary carillo sounds like a dude, and noone is checking between her legs:rolleyes:

Doesn't she have family anyway that could verify? This rumour seems completely unfounded.
http://www.rr.com/sports/sports/article/rr/9009/8685619/SAfrican_runner_wins_800_amid_gender_questions/2

Semenya's father, Jacob Semenya, pleaded: "I wish they would leave my daughter alone."

"She is my little girl. I raised her and I have never doubted her gender. She is a woman and I can repeat that a million times," Semenya told the Sowetan newspaper.

Semenya's paternal grandmother, Maputhi Sekgala, also spoke in defense of Semenya.

"The controversy doesn't bother me that much because I know she's a woman _ I raised her myself," Sekgala told The Times, another South African newspaper.

"What can I do when they call her a man, when she's really not a man? It is God who made her look that way," Sekgala said.

Gideon Sam, the president of the SASCOC _ South Africa's Olympic governing body _ congratulated Semenya on a "truly remarkable achievement," the South African Press Association reported.

"We condemn the way she was linked with such media speculation and allegation, especially on a day she ran in the final of her first major world event. It's the biggest day of her life," Sam said.

Morris Gilbert, a media consultant for TuksSport, the University of Pretoria's sports department, said the issue of Semenya's gender has not been raised since the 18-year-old freshman began attending the university.

timafi
Aug 20th, 2009, 03:32 PM
as much as this bugs the hell out of me;let them test her and if she is indeed a woman;i hope she sues the fuck out of them:mad:
shit women athletes have to endure is not fun:mad:

mauresmofan
Aug 20th, 2009, 03:36 PM
It's such a sexist issue regarding a woman in tremendous physical shape.



Oh come on now it's not like the world championships is filled with couch potatos, the vast majority of the women competing are in incredible shape the difference here is that Semenya clearly talks and runs like a man and has facial hair so of course there will be suspicions. She's come out of nowhere to improve her lifetime best out of sight and if she is a guy competing in a womens event then that's a clear case of cheating. As for how the IAAF handled this case, really poor. They could have waited for the race to be over and started their investigation. From what has come out today about her family I'm starting to believe that she is a female but time will tell. It's all very unusual. While we are on the subject I always suspected Mexican athlete Ana Guevera of not being all she seemed (note the adams apple).

http://www.atletismoenmexico.com/2007/Imagenes%202007/ana%20Guevara%20.jpg

drake3781
Aug 20th, 2009, 03:42 PM
Where would Semenya's times be in the men's event?

================================================

In an interview with South Africa's Beeld newspaper, Semenya's former headmaster said he didn't realize she was a girl because she wore pants instead of a skirt to school.

He said that Caster wore the male version of the uniform to school - yellow shirts and grey pants – while all the other girls wore reddish-brown skirts and yellow shirts.

"She was always rough and played with the boys. She liked soccer and she wore pants to school. She never wore a dress. It was only in grade 11 that I realized she's a girl," Eric Modiba, head of the Nthema Secondary School, told the newspaper.

"I first realised that she was a girl in Grade 11," he said, explaining how Semenya had moved to stand with a girls team after he had divided the boys and girls for short running race.

=============================================

FAIRLIE, South Africa — In the poor, rural village where South African runner Caster Semenya grew up, relatives on Thursday brushed off questions about her deep voice and muscular build that have prompted the world governing body for track and field to seek gender tests.

"That's how God made her," said her cousin, Evelyn Sekgala, who recalls Semenya being teased about her boyish looks while growing up in Fairlie, a village at the end of a dirt road where the biggest traffic jam on Thursday was a herd of goats.

Semenya's cousin says no one in the area has gotten as far as the teen running sensation. At 50, Sekgala has never been farther than Pretoria, South Africa's capital, which is near Johannesburg.

Sekgala says it's her dream that Semenya will one day take the whole family overseas to watch her run.

rockstar
Aug 20th, 2009, 03:48 PM
as much as this bugs the hell out of me;let them test her and if she is indeed a woman;i hope she sues the fuck out of them:mad:
shit women athletes have to endure is not fun:mad:

co-signed

Svetlana.
Aug 20th, 2009, 03:51 PM
Maybe they should test all three winners...

And I hope Caster Semenya has nothing to hide. If she's a woman the test results would prevent all future suspicions because sooner or later someone else can question her gender again.

Joana
Aug 20th, 2009, 03:53 PM
Where would Semenya's times be in the men's event?



Not nearly enough to get her in the finals. In men's competition anything that's not under 1:50.00 is relatively poor (for a top level of course), she ran 1:55.45.

I don't think the issue is that she's a man posing as a woman, it's rather a question of whether she has some sort of genetic condition that gives her an unfair advantage over the other athletes.

drake3781
Aug 20th, 2009, 03:57 PM
Not nearly enough to get her in the finals. In men's competition anything that's not under 1:50.00 is relatively poor (for a top level of course), she ran 1:55.45.

I don't think the issue is that she's a man posing as a woman, it's rather a question of whether she has some sort of genetic condition that gives her an unfair advantage over the other athletes.


Point 1: So the time is about what we might expect from a talented, but newly started and self trained, man. Seems about right.


Point 2: It could be that, or it could be that her family realized that a world class runner would be their ticket out of harsh economic circumstances and set this up. Or, it could be a combination of the two, which is my guess.

vadin124
Aug 20th, 2009, 04:20 PM
i think it's so nasty how people can say "she's a male"...

where is the bulge, taped between her legs?

to be spoken of like that at an international level must be awful for the poor girl, have some sympathy for her.

i have absolutely no doubt in my mind she is a woman, whether she has male characteristics due to her genetic make up is yet to be seen, but stop calling her a man, as there is absolutely no chance of this holding truth.

i can't wait for her to be cleared, so she can sue the shit out of the idiots that govern the IAAF...

drake3781
Aug 20th, 2009, 05:10 PM
First claims of racism.

http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=6&art_id=nw20090820152848428C649424



Also includes a nonsensical statement about the Williams sisters. :weirdo:

olivero
Aug 20th, 2009, 05:32 PM
How much Y chromosome is allowed to compete in a female sport?

We had a case here in the Netherlands where Foukje Dillema was was kicked out of the sport in 1950
Fanny Blankers Koen and her husband apparently where responsible that Foukje was kicked out, because they were afraid that she would kick butt.
Foukje was androgene with some Y-chromosome in her DNA but she was definitely a woman. They researched her dna a few years ago and if she had lived now she would definitely have been allowed to compete. She felt so ashamed and humanilated and apparently never wanted to talk about it the rest of her life.

She was rehabilitated after her death and now gets the respect she deserved.
http://heroisme.web-log.nl/heroisme/images/2008/08/23/foekjedillema.jpg

We had similar case in Poland in 1964. Ewa Kłobukowska, who won two medals in Tokyo Olympics in sprints, was forced to finish her career early because she was tested as a man (they said she's not a 'certifacated woman'). Polish government didn't do anything as the accusations came from USSR and GDR. IAAF cancelled all her world records. She was cleared from those charges 27 years later as the method they used turned out false and she would be considered a woman today.


As for Caster I agree she should be tested (she does seems suspicious) but all this media attention is just wrong.

G-Ha
Aug 20th, 2009, 05:48 PM
The deep voice, moustache and especially the shaving of 10 seconds off her previous best time are all suspect. But I would suspect steroid use before I would assume she's male.

Actually, the coming out of virtually nowhere with such a vast improvement over her personal best stands out even more than the physical characteristics. It's reminiscent of when Flo Jo went from being a mediocre runner to breaking world records in less than a year.

Polikarpov
Aug 20th, 2009, 06:26 PM
Is it true that Caster was born a Hermaphrodite?

Elisse
Aug 20th, 2009, 10:04 PM
All in all it's a pretty difficult situation. Firstly difficult for Semenya, but also difficult for the girls racing against her and for the IAAF.

I think the whole thing could have been handled far better way, should have been sorted out before the World Champs started...not announced the same day as she's running in the final! :o Unfair to everyone involved.

As for Semenya herself....my Mum had her suspicions on her when she run in the first qualie round (Before all these allegations were announced) I have to say..I've been suspicious myself about various athletes over the years!!

I feel very sorry for Semenya...have no idea either way, if she is hermaphrodite or what is going on. The whole thing must be very embarrassing for her, for it to be so public.....but I also have to say, I doubt this is the first time anyone has ever said these things to her face..it's probably happened many times during her life...and though it doesn't make it easier...I'm sure the allegations at this event can't be that bigger surprise for her, even though this is on a much bigger scale than in the past.

I have to admit, her speed and time is the most suspicious thing for me...she just left the others standing! Remember Marion Jones having speed like that...and we all know now that she was on a performance enhancing substance :sad: Also remember Flo Jo having that speed to and though she never tested positive (same for Jones too) it's pretty much goes without saying that her records were probably won whilst under the influence of a banned substance :sad: Either way, there is definately need for investigation into Semenya and her incredible running times. If she has nothing to hide, then the findings will speak for themselves and it will be better for her in the future, to not always have these questions and allegations bought up at every big meet.

KournikovaFan91
Aug 20th, 2009, 10:10 PM
This is all very complicated. Why don't they bring back compulsory gender testing like they used to have at the Olympics for all athletes before Atlanta.

Maria Mutola looks just as much like a man as Semanya, did she ever do a gender test?

Elisse
Aug 20th, 2009, 10:11 PM
Someone who I always suspected...not sure if it was gender or drugs..but I always had a feeling 'something' was not as it should be...


Svetla Dimitrova (Bulgarian Hurdler)

http://www.omy.se/wp-content/06021404.jpg

KournikovaFan91
Aug 20th, 2009, 10:13 PM
Well her wikipedia says she was sanctioned for doping so it was probably that.


http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/olympics/images/attachement/jpg/site1/20070727/001aa018ff9c081386dc0c.jpg

She doesn't look extremly feminine but we know she is a woman. Like its clearly unfair to single out Semanya.

Marcelo.
Aug 20th, 2009, 10:20 PM
Santhi Soundarajan of India also went through a gender test in 2006 after winning silver in Asian Games and her medal was taken after concluding that she was not eligible to compete as a woman :tears:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1026/1341505101_c50aba0d8c_o.jpg

http://www.chanfriedman.com/images/santhi-soundarajan.jpg

http://www.chennai365.com/wp-content/uploads/general/Aug/Santhi.jpg

Keegan
Aug 20th, 2009, 10:39 PM
Semenya actually looks like a male friend of mine from South Africa, just had to say.

I can understand why they want to test her. She looks like a man, talks like a man, and comes out of nowhere to be World Champion. Hell, she even sits like a man! But then again, surely they should've already done tests on her that could've indicated her gender? And didn't she run in juniors too? They could've questioned her then.

Rocketta
Aug 20th, 2009, 10:53 PM
I don't think having a mustache is that big a deal, I see plenty of women with them. Heck there is a girl at my pharmacy that has a mustache any man would want. Seems to me if you are trying to hide that you are a man wouldn't you shave, wear earrings, grow your hair long, etc.. ?

I just can't see how anyone trying to pull a fast one would let her show up looking and sounding like that....it's got to be just who she is? :eek: It will be interesting to see the results.

mauresmofan
Aug 20th, 2009, 11:27 PM
It's reminiscent of when Flo Jo went from being a mediocre runner to breaking world records in less than a year.

Flo Jo was never a mediocre runner. She was a very good athlete and was always in finals of big competitions, often medalling and that is why whatever she took turned her into a racehorse for the 88 season. Ben Johnson was way more of a mediocre runner and that's why the stuff he took made him better than everyone but not ridiculously better than everyone like it did for Flo Jo.

Joana
Aug 20th, 2009, 11:41 PM
But then again, surely they should've already done tests on her that could've indicated her gender? And didn't she run in juniors too? They could've questioned her then.

Those tests are expensive and take a lot of time to be completed, that's why they're only done in exceptional cases. They involve a lot more than just checking what's in the pants. ;) Her results weren't that staggering while she was a junior, so they probably didn't warrant an investigation back then.

Mike_T
Aug 20th, 2009, 11:53 PM
Looks like they're pushing forward with the tests:

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/sport-headlines/athlete-to-be-checked-for-balls-200908201997/

KournikovaFan91
Aug 20th, 2009, 11:54 PM
Flo Jo was never a mediocre runner. She was a very good athlete and was always in finals of big competitions, often medalling and that is why whatever she took turned her into a racehorse for the 88 season. Ben Johnson was way more of a mediocre runner and that's why the stuff he took made him better than everyone but not ridiculously better than everyone like it did for Flo Jo.


I assumed it was taken as given that she was on drugs.

mauresmofan
Aug 21st, 2009, 12:25 AM
I assumed it was taken as given that she was on drugs.

She certainly was on some super steroids from 87 to 88 but I do believe she was a very good naturally gifted athlete before that and maybe knowing she couldn't beat the doped up Europeans from Germany and the Eastern block she decided to play them at their game. Nobody can possibly believe Flo Jo could suddenly run that fast just from training. Her physique changed so dramatically and her voice deepened so much prior to the 88 season that the tell tale signs were there and even Marion Jones and her drugs cargo couldn't get close to Flo Jos records.

Keegan
Aug 21st, 2009, 12:30 AM
An IAA spokesman said: "If we can't see the balls immediately we will then ask her to turn around to make sure she hasn't shoved them between her legs like that freaky bit in Silence of the Lambs."

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

HRHoliviasmith
Aug 21st, 2009, 02:08 AM
She certainly was on some super steroids from 87 to 88 but I do believe she was a very good naturally gifted athlete before that and maybe knowing she couldn't beat the doped up Europeans from Germany and the Eastern block she decided to play them at their game. Nobody can possibly believe Flo Jo could suddenly run that fast just from training. Her physique changed so dramatically and her voice deepened so much prior to the 88 season that the tell tale signs were there and even Marion Jones and her drugs cargo couldn't get close to Flo Jos records.

Isn't that what caused her death? *too lazy to google right now*

Rocketta
Aug 21st, 2009, 02:20 AM
Flo Jo suffered from seizures and had one in her sleep and either drowned on her own vomit or was suffocated as a result.

Infiniti2001
Aug 21st, 2009, 02:22 AM
Looks like they're pushing forward with the tests:

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/sport-headlines/athlete-to-be-checked-for-balls-200908201997/


An IAA spokesman said: "If we can't see the balls immediately we will then ask her to turn around to make sure she hasn't shoved them between her legs like that freaky bit in Silence of the Lambs.

"If we find at least one ball then there is a 60-70% chance that she's not really a girl. If we find a great, big cock then the chances increase to about 90%."

He added: "We will also be searching her room and her luggage to make sure she hasn't hidden her cock and balls inside an old shoe or an empty milk carton."


Just shoot me http://i27.tinypic.com/2m5h36d.gifhttp://i27.tinypic.com/2m5h36d.jpg OMG this so cracked me . I'm laughing with tears :lol: This is so wrong :help:

HRHoliviasmith
Aug 21st, 2009, 02:25 AM
Just shoot me http://i27.tinypic.com/2m5h36d.gifhttp://i27.tinypic.com/2m5h36d.jpg OMG this so cracked me . I'm laughing with tears :lol: This is so wrong :help:

are these educated people? i really wonder.

mykarma
Aug 21st, 2009, 02:55 AM
as much as this bugs the hell out of me;let them test her and if she is indeed a woman;i hope she sues the fuck out of them:mad:
shit women athletes have to endure is not fun:mad:
Even if it turns out she's a woman mean people will taunt her.

Scotso
Aug 21st, 2009, 04:54 AM
are these educated people? i really wonder.

:o

Are you?

HRHoliviasmith
Aug 21st, 2009, 05:11 AM
:o

Are you?

ah shut up.

Salve
Aug 21st, 2009, 05:32 AM
ah shut up.

Good response, really. *This isn't a sarcastic post either* I don't see how his or her question was relevant at all. :confused: There really are some bitter posters on this Forum. :unsure: It is so very sad.

The Crow
Aug 21st, 2009, 09:05 AM
Looks like they're pushing forward with the tests:

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/sport-headlines/athlete-to-be-checked-for-balls-200908201997/

If we find at least one ball then there is a 60-70% chance that she's not really a girl. If we find a great, big cock then the chances increase to about 90%.

That last bit :lol:

Wojtek
Aug 21st, 2009, 09:34 AM
Balian Buschbaum (born 14 July 1980 in Ulm, née Yvonne Buschbaum) is a German pole vaulter.

Buschbaum's personal best is 4.70 metres, achieved in June 2003 in Ulm. This ranks Buschbaum second among German pole vaulters, only behind Annika Becker. On November 21, 2007 Buschbaum announced his retirement from the sport due to a persistent injury and the desire to begin gender reassignment.[1] In January 2008, Buschbaum announced that his new first name was "Balian", after the blacksmith in the movie Kingdom of Heaven, and will begin gender reassignment surgery later that year.

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2007/11/22/buschbaum_narrowweb__300x413,0.jpg

Monica_Rules
Aug 21st, 2009, 10:26 AM
So she is becoming a man. Bit of a difference there, she/he would be at a disadvantage competing against other males.

Marcelo.
Aug 21st, 2009, 10:36 AM
Balian Buschbaum (born 14 July 1980 in Ulm, née Yvonne Buschbaum) is a German pole vaulter.

Buschbaum's personal best is 4.70 metres, achieved in June 2003 in Ulm. This ranks Buschbaum second among German pole vaulters, only behind Annika Becker. On November 21, 2007 Buschbaum announced his retirement from the sport due to a persistent injury and the desire to begin gender reassignment.[1] In January 2008, Buschbaum announced that his new first name was "Balian", after the blacksmith in the movie Kingdom of Heaven, and will begin gender reassignment surgery later that year.

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2007/11/22/buschbaum_narrowweb__300x413,0.jpg

:confused:
She was a woman while she was active, so nothing to do with this case:shrug:

mandy7
Aug 21st, 2009, 10:57 AM
are these educated people? i really wonder.
Do you really wonder?

olivero
Aug 21st, 2009, 11:06 AM
:confused:
She was a woman while she was active, so nothing to do with this case:shrug:

She might have been geneticaly male I think. Those gender/sex issues are really complicated :tape:

mandy7
Aug 21st, 2009, 11:08 AM
How much Y chromosome is allowed to compete in a female sport?

We had a case here in the Netherlands where Foukje Dillema was was kicked out of the sport in 1950
Fanny Blankers Koen and her husband apparently where responsible that Foukje was kicked out, because they were afraid that she would kick butt.
Foukje was androgene with some Y-chromosome in her DNA but she was definitely a woman. They researched her dna a few years ago and if she had lived now she would definitely have been allowed to compete. She felt so ashamed and humanilated and apparently never wanted to talk about it the rest of her life.

She was rehabilitated after her death and now gets the respect she deserved.
http://heroisme.web-log.nl/heroisme/images/2008/08/23/foekjedillema.jpg

How are you rehabilitated after death?

I mean that her records are back in the books again.
Yeah, and they made a one hour tv show about it that got quote the media attention :yeah:

mykarma
Aug 21st, 2009, 11:25 AM
:o

Are you?
Nice response Scotso. :rolleyes:

Scotso
Aug 21st, 2009, 11:52 AM
Good response, really. *This isn't a sarcastic post either* I don't see how his or her question was relevant at all. :confused: There really are some bitter posters on this Forum. :unsure: It is so very sad.

ah shut up.

Nice response Scotso. :rolleyes:

Do you guys not get that that article is a joke?

mandy7
Aug 21st, 2009, 11:57 AM
Do you guys not get that that article is a joke?
Sarcasm is quite a hard thing to grasp for some people when there's no :p;):eek::cool::bounce::tape: or :help: behind the sentences... :p

:lol:

Harvs
Aug 21st, 2009, 12:12 PM
it had to be done... look at her/him...

Crazy Canuck
Aug 21st, 2009, 12:51 PM
Do you guys not get that that article is a joke?
I'll be over here, making a surprised face.

HRHoliviasmith
Aug 21st, 2009, 01:32 PM
Do you guys not get that that article is a joke?

egg on my face...:o

okay i didn't actually click on the link, just saw that snippet. i know not an excuse :lol:

sorry for telling you to shutup :p

Brena
Aug 21st, 2009, 02:25 PM
LOL at people saying Mutola was a man. She was just a unbelievable athlete. An 800m legend.

Completely agree. She's probably my all-time favourite athlete and her longevity was incredible. Granted she wasn't a barbie doll and was very heavily muscled (she's been like that since 14), but she's clearly a woman. Just look at her chest!
.

:worship::worship:
Next poster who badmouths Maria is gonna get it in the locker-room! :(:p
Seriously though, she's one of my all time favourite athletes, and it's not like the female sprinters or throwers (for example) are usually the epitomes of femininity in the looks department, so what?

They are only questioning it after they have won something.:o

Yes. Maybe I'm paranoid but I've entertained the thought that perhaps some bigger and more influential countries would like Semenya disqualified so that their athletes have a better shot at the medals... :scratch:
Anyway, the IAAF has handled this clumsily, to say the least. :o

KournikovaFan91
Aug 21st, 2009, 08:52 PM
If the USA were involved I would consider that, however the countries that run 800m successfully aren't particularly powerful.

Wojtek
Aug 27th, 2009, 06:40 AM
Leonard Chuene, president of Athletics South Africa (ASA), who has stepped down from the International Association of Athletics Federations council while it investigates Semenya, denied that the controversial former East German coach Ekkart Arbeit, who now works as ASA's head coach, could have doped her.

Sport on television "Arbeit was never part and parcel of this little girl," Chuene said. "There was no way Arbeit was going to be injecting her."

A German parliamentary inquiry named Arbeit as a key figure in the former East Germany's state-sponsored athletics-doping system.

Former shot putter Heidi Krieger, who eventually underwent a sex change to become Andreas Krieger, blamed him for her condition. But Arbeit insists that since 1989 he has stuck to clean coaching methods.

Sources within the ASA state that Arbeit is more involved with structures and overall programmes than with individual athletes. They add that Semenya has been dope-tested regularly in recent years, including after her African junior championships win in Mauritius last month.

Semenya did not say a word during the press conference and for the most part looked subdued and apprehensive.

However, she laughed as injections were mentioned and shook her head when The Daily Telegraph's revelations on Monday of elevated testosterone levels in initial tests came up. "Those are not our tests," Chuene said. "Why should we worry about the tests of other people?"

The controversy surrounding Semenya has triggered a wave of nationalistic support for her in South Africa and around 3,000 ecstatic fans packed the airport to welcome her and the rest of the team home.

But the possibility of an XXY chromosomal abnormality, which is a rare condition that can give a person characteristics of both genders, for instance, has barely been mentioned in the South African media, and politicians have rushed to Semenya's defence.

The African National Congress youth league leader Julius Malema condemned the IAAF's decision to test Semenya as "racist and sexist" last week and the 18 year-old was flanked by Winne Madikizela-Mandela, Nelson Mandela's highly controversial ex-wife, at the press conference on Tuesday.

Introduced as "the mother of the nation" and referring to Semenya as "my grandchild", Madikizela-Mandela added to the anger. "To the world out there who conducted those pseudo-tests, they can stuff their insult," she said. "This is our little girl and nobody is going to perform any tests on her."

Jacob Zuma, South Africa's new president, said: "She has shown the world that if you are determined to win, nobody and nothing will stop you"

FrOzon
Aug 27th, 2009, 09:13 AM
Balian Buschbaum (born 14 July 1980 in Ulm, née Yvonne Buschbaum) is a German pole vaulter.

Buschbaum's personal best is 4.70 metres, achieved in June 2003 in Ulm. This ranks Buschbaum second among German pole vaulters, only behind Annika Becker. On November 21, 2007 Buschbaum announced his retirement from the sport due to a persistent injury and the desire to begin gender reassignment.[1] In January 2008, Buschbaum announced that his new first name was "Balian", after the blacksmith in the movie Kingdom of Heaven, and will begin gender reassignment surgery later that year.

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2007/11/22/buschbaum_narrowweb__300x413,0.jpg

His page including a blog (only in German) and two photos

http://www.pole-it-buschbaum.de/

Monica_Rules
Aug 27th, 2009, 01:19 PM
I've always thought that she was XXY.

Surely if she refuses to take the tests she'll be banned from athletcis?

And why is the South African guys saying why do we care about other peoples tests. Cos they prove more than likely shes not a woman?

Pengwin
Aug 27th, 2009, 05:34 PM
http://www.pole-it-buschbaum.de/images/stories/Balian/IMG_3182.JPG

WOW! :eek:

Why can't I grow facial hair like that :rolleyes:

Monica_Rules
Aug 27th, 2009, 06:42 PM
OMG I can't believs thats the same person.

HRHoliviasmith
Aug 27th, 2009, 07:20 PM
WOW! :eek:

Why can't I grow facial hair like that :rolleyes:

so handsome :sad:

Wojtek
Aug 28th, 2009, 05:39 AM
OMG I can't believs thats the same person.

:eek::eek::eek:

nevetssllim
Sep 24th, 2009, 10:25 PM
This is all very complicated. Why don't they bring back compulsory gender testing like they used to have at the Olympics for all athletes before Atlanta.

Maria Mutola looks just as much like a man as Semanya, did she ever do a gender test?

Just found out Mutola did have to undergo gender tests when she came onto the scene in the early 1990s.

Someone who I always suspected...not sure if it was gender or drugs..but I always had a feeling 'something' was not as it should be...

Svetla Dimitrova (Bulgarian Hurdler)

http://www.omy.se/wp-content/06021404.jpg

She did test positive for steroids and (believe it or not) she actually gave birth to a child :help:

FrOzon
May 28th, 2010, 09:15 PM
Balian Buschbaum right now in German TV (NDR)...