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RenaSlam.
Jul 16th, 2009, 12:17 AM
NEW YORK -- Martina Navratilova says the Williams sisters need to hurry to match her record of nine Wimbledon singles titles.

The 29-year-old Venus lost to Serena at Wimbledon this month, keeping her at five. Serena now has three Wimbledon crowns and is 15 months younger.

"They'll have to play a lot of years to catch up," Navratilova said in a phone interview. "Venus really needed to win this year. The closer you get to 30, the body starts slowing down. It doesn't obey as well."

On Wednesday night, Navratilova and the Boston Lobsters of World Team Tennis will face John McEnroe and the New York Sportimes in Manhattan.

The 52-year-old Navratilova is playing a record 20th season for World Team Tennis and is a commentator for The Tennis Channel.



Thank you for all your intellect, Martina! Truly remarkable. :bounce::lol:

"NO SHIT!"

cellophane
Jul 16th, 2009, 12:18 AM
That's why she kept playing till 50? :confused:

debopero
Jul 16th, 2009, 12:31 AM
Just Shut Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

kiwifan
Jul 16th, 2009, 12:42 AM
Awww, shadduppayaface Martina!!!

No one is "forgetting you" and your awesome tennis career :p...

AcesHigh
Jul 16th, 2009, 12:47 AM
I think Venus missed her chance already. 9 will not be reached for a LONG time.

mdterp01
Jul 16th, 2009, 12:47 AM
Nothing like stating the OBVIOUS Martina.

darrinbaker00
Jul 16th, 2009, 12:58 AM
Awww, shadduppayaface Martina!!!

No one is "forgetting you" and your awesome tennis career :p...
She was asked a question, and she answered it. Nothing more, nothing less.

LightWarrior
Jul 16th, 2009, 01:06 AM
She's so hypocritical, so fake...
1/ I'm sure she was pissing in her pants watching Venus lose that Wimbledon final.
2/ She won many Wimbledon titles in her 30s.

BlameSerena
Jul 16th, 2009, 01:09 AM
Well she is likely right so :shrug:

I can always dream though...
I don't care if Serena doesn't have nine Wimbys...if she can just get nine more slams then that's enough. :hearts::hearts:

hacberto
Jul 16th, 2009, 01:36 AM
Oh my God she's such a Bitch!

vwfan
Jul 16th, 2009, 01:38 AM
the only person wanting a Serena victory in this year's final MORE THAN Serena herself was Martina!:o

Donny
Jul 16th, 2009, 01:41 AM
I think Venus missed her chance already. 9 will not be reached for a LONG time.

More like never, most likely.

It's simply not possible for a player to play nine years of uninterrupted grand slam caliber tennis. That era has passed.

Gumbycat
Jul 16th, 2009, 01:47 AM
Martina's record is probably safe. Venus, if healthy, will probably get 7 or 8 total Wimbledon Titles. Serena will probably get 4 or 5 total Wimbledon Titles.

harloo
Jul 16th, 2009, 01:56 AM
She's so hypocritical, so fake...
1/ I'm sure she was pissing in her pants watching Venus lose that Wimbledon final.
2/ She won many Wimbledon titles in her 30s.

It was hilarious last year when Venus won the title and Martina was all sour puss. :lol: Now she wants Venus to hurry up and pass her record? :rolleyes: Will this woman just shut her trap and move on with her life? Venus and Serena aren't chasing her record.:help:

AcesHigh
Jul 16th, 2009, 01:56 AM
More like never, most likely.

It's simply not possible for a player to play nine years of uninterrupted grand slam caliber tennis. That era has passed.

I'm sure no one thought that Sampras's record would be broken so soon or that two different players would win RG-Wimby back-to-back in back-to-back years. It can definitely happen

CoolDude7
Jul 16th, 2009, 02:19 AM
Venus was the only person that had a chance... martina can be glad Venus had a sister otherwise the record would be hers.

nikita771
Jul 16th, 2009, 02:22 AM
I love Martina! It's amazing how mad folks get when she speaks the truth. Venus and Serena will have to play more years to match her record. How can you possibly get mad at a statement like that?! I'd love to have seen Venus make it one step closer, but hopefully she'll come back in full force next year.

tonybotz
Jul 16th, 2009, 05:15 AM
ugh, martina is such a sad person. imagine how fragile her ego must be. she had no family though, so her tennis records are all she has to be rememembered by. i love how she complained that she didn't get endorsements because she was gay. maybe it was because she had a shit personality and no one liked her because of it. sour grapes. its martina's whine.

debopero
Jul 16th, 2009, 05:22 AM
w/e

tennnisfannn
Jul 16th, 2009, 05:34 AM
How are the sisters supposed to hurry up, unless the rules are changed, wimbledone will continue to be played once every 52 weeks, and if she wants to talk about them as one player then she should be prepared to say they have one more slam left to catch up which is achieveable, as it is if it is venus she is talking about then she should say so.

KoOlMaNsEaN
Jul 16th, 2009, 05:38 AM
I dont think they care about records

Craig.
Jul 16th, 2009, 05:40 AM
I'm sure no one thought that Sampras's record would be broken so soon or that two different players would win RG-Wimby back-to-back in back-to-back years. It can definitely happen

Not on the WTA, it can't.

HeninFan_2008
Jul 16th, 2009, 05:43 AM
'Ree is finished. She just won her last GS title!

Galsen
Jul 16th, 2009, 05:55 AM
'Ree is finished. She just won her last GS title!

okay you should just disappear

Dolce&Gabbana
Jul 16th, 2009, 06:03 AM
'Ree is finished. She just won her last GS title!

I see shit out of your asshole:help:

Volcana
Jul 16th, 2009, 06:53 AM
More like never, most likely.

It's simply not possible for a player to play nine years of uninterrupted grand slam caliber tennis. That era has passed.Serena has won eleven slams ten years. So you can still average 。。。。

HRHoliviasmith
Jul 16th, 2009, 07:04 AM
'Ree is finished. She just won her last GS title!

wishful thinking.....or do you know something?

Volcana
Jul 16th, 2009, 07:07 AM
Why does Navratilova threaten so many people? I don't get it. She says perfectly reasonable things. And they get reported because the greatest player in the history of the sport. She won a slam title when she was FORTY-EIGHT.

In cycling, people don't say, "Why doesn't Lance Armstrong go away?" (Not many people anyway.)


In swimming, can you imagine people saying to Dana Torres "go away, you're too old", because 41 years old was too old to be a competitve swimmer? She only won THREE silver medals in the 2008 Olympics.

Yet in tennis, somehow, the idea that the greateast ever can still compete with the lesser ranks of today's player scraes the hell out of people. Make that WOMEN'S tennis. On the men's side, Federer vs Sampras generated excitement. A couple years back, when Nav requested wild cards into the slams, so idiots reacted with scorn.
And then when she actually beat a top twenty-five player ....

I'd like to hear a rational explanation for this.

Why does this woman frighten so many people so much?

Why is women's tennis virtually the only sport in which the continued competitiveess of a champion is derided instaed of celebrated?

Donny
Jul 16th, 2009, 07:20 AM
Serena has won eleven slams ten years. So you can still average 。。。。

True. But That's 11 out of what, 44 attempts? If you estimate the maximum tennis career at about 12 years, then you need a to win win Wimbledon 9 out of 12 times to match the record. That's insane.

Donny
Jul 16th, 2009, 07:20 AM
I'm sure no one thought that Sampras's record would be broken so soon or that two different players would win RG-Wimby back-to-back in back-to-back years. It can definitely happen

Well, yes, if a female Federer comes along...

That's like expecting another Jordan to spring up. It MIGHT happen, but it's not likely.

Fed's made 20 straight semis in grand slam events. That's twice as much as the second most, who also is an all time great. He's a very, very, exceptional case.

Apoleb
Jul 16th, 2009, 07:25 AM
lol @ the responses in this thread. Pathetic.

She was just probably asked a question and she answered. She didn't make a press conference to inform us about this new breakthrough.

Sam L
Jul 16th, 2009, 07:47 AM
Nav may be a nice person off court but when it comes to tennis and on court related things, she's a b!tch and so obsessed with records.

There are athletes who perform well into their 30s. I can think of a few Olympians (track and field athletes) who peaked in their 30s and won Gold in their 30s.

I'm not saying that's what will necessarily happen with the sisters. But if their bodies hold up and the interest is there, you just never know.

I like the fact that they're not obsessed with tennis to the extent that they think, breathe and play it all the time. The outside interests will hopefully keep them interested in tennis for a long time.

Keegan
Jul 16th, 2009, 08:04 AM
Yeah Martina! "Shut the hell up, but keep playing!" You send those mixed signals!

ZODIAC
Jul 16th, 2009, 09:21 AM
she is so obssessed with the sisters,how come we never hear her say this about Dementieva,Momo,Dinara or chide Nicole her fellow Czech about her lack of commitment,or bash Jankovic about her lack of form.It seems like she is ever ready to diss the sisters at every opportunity.The sisters can retire today and their legacy is fabulous beyond measure,they have made their own records and it will take a long time to have two sisters dominate Wimbledon for almost a decade in doubles and singles.

bandabou
Jul 16th, 2009, 09:28 AM
Why the outcry? Serena and Venus are 29 and almost 28, so the clock is ticking for them. Nothing wrong with Martina's words. :lol:

ZODIAC
Jul 16th, 2009, 09:39 AM
Why the outcry? Serena and Venus are 29 and almost 28, so the clock is ticking for them. Nothing wrong with Martina's words. :lol:the clock ticks for Momo,Dementieva,Jankovic,and every other player.They are not going to play forever but it seems she cant wait for the sisters to retire,her track record where the sisters are concerned is riddled with hate and disrespect.:p

Matt01
Jul 16th, 2009, 09:45 AM
She's so hypocritical, so fake...
1/ I'm sure she was pissing in her pants watching Venus lose that Wimbledon final.
2/ She won many Wimbledon titles in her 30s.


2 out of 9 are not "many".

bandabou
Jul 16th, 2009, 09:55 AM
the clock ticks for Momo,Dementieva,Jankovic,and every other player.They are not going to play forever but it seems she cant wait for the sisters to retire,her track record where the sisters are concerned is riddled with hate and disrespect.:p

Perhaps..but this time there wasn't anything wrong. You can't let paranoia govern your life.

fnuf7
Jul 16th, 2009, 10:39 AM
She's so hypocritical, so fake...
2/ She won many Wimbledon titles in her 30s.

Yeah but they were mainly doubles titles, they don't really count, not towards the record 9 anyway. I think she only won once after 30 & that was 1990 right? (not even sure what age she actually was)

One thing in the Sister's favour is the fact that there isn't, at the moment, a Steffi Graf-esque player coming up, a player just as competent on grass as they are, who can/will beat them regularly at Wimbledon. The onyl real challenge they have year after year is with each other so really I only see Serena stopping Venus reaching/breaking that record & likewise only Venus stopping Serena (though Serena is probably already too far behind the 9 to actually reach it now)

Philbo
Jul 16th, 2009, 10:39 AM
It was hilarious last year when Venus won the title and Martina was all sour puss. :lol: Now she wants Venus to hurry up and pass her record? :rolleyes: Will this woman just shut her trap and move on with her life? Venus and Serena aren't chasing her record.:help:

She got a phone call from a reporter and was asked what she thought about Venus chances of beating her record and she gave a perfectly reasonable answer. Grow some skin for christ sakes. THe skin you've got is painfully thin if you find this comment bitchy.

Why does Navratilova threaten so many people? I don't get it. She says perfectly reasonable things. And they get reported because the greatest player in the history of the sport. She won a slam title when she was FORTY-EIGHT.

In cycling, people don't say, "Why doesn't Lance Armstrong go away?" (Not many people anyway.)


In swimming, can you imagine people saying to Dana Torres "go away, you're too old", because 41 years old was too old to be a competitve swimmer? She only won THREE silver medals in the 2008 Olympics.

Yet in tennis, somehow, the idea that the greateast ever can still compete with the lesser ranks of today's player scraes the hell out of people. Make that WOMEN'S tennis. On the men's side, Federer vs Sampras generated excitement. A couple years back, when Nav requested wild cards into the slams, so idiots reacted with scorn.
And then when she actually beat a top twenty-five player ....

I'd like to hear a rational explanation for this.

Why does this woman frighten so many people so much?

Why is women's tennis virtually the only sport in which the continued competitiveess of a champion is derided instaed of celebrated?

I dont think Ive ever agreed with any of your posts more than this one Volcana. Thank god someone can still think with common sense when Martina's name is involved.

People feel threatened by a woman who isnt afraid to continually speak her mind even at the risk of controversy. Coupled with the fact that she is an out and out lesbian and people perceive her as 'manly' they think nothing of calling her a bitch for having the nerve to say something as harmless as the sisters will need to play alot longer to win 9 wimbledons...

lol @ the responses in this thread. Pathetic.

She was just probably asked a question and she answered. She didn't make a press conference to inform us about this new breakthrough.
Amen
Nav may be a nice person off court but when it comes to tennis and on court related things, she's a b!tch and so obsessed with records.

There are athletes who perform well into their 30s. I can think of a few Olympians (track and field athletes) who peaked in their 30s and won Gold in their 30s.

I'm not saying that's what will necessarily happen with the sisters. But if their bodies hold up and the interest is there, you just never know.

I like the fact that they're not obsessed with tennis to the extent that they think, breathe and play it all the time. The outside interests will hopefully keep them interested in tennis for a long time.

She's not a bitch Sam. She just calls a spade a spade and that gets people's nose out of joint.

she is so obssessed with the sisters,how come we never hear her say this about Dementieva,Momo,Dinara or chide Nicole her fellow Czech about her lack of commitment,or bash Jankovic about her lack of form.It seems like she is ever ready to diss the sisters at every opportunity.The sisters can retire today and their legacy is fabulous beyond measure,they have made their own records and it will take a long time to have two sisters dominate Wimbledon for almost a decade in doubles and singles.

Thats just plain stupid. She never chided anyone about lack of commitment, she spoke about the Williams chances of winning 9 wimbledons. The reason she never says anything about Dements, Momo or DInara winning 9 wimbledons is that they have a grand total of 1 wimbledon title between them.

Grow up people for gods sake.

Ceri
Jul 16th, 2009, 10:55 AM
Mass hysteria on WTAWorld once again! Martina is simply stating the obvious. Venus and/or Serena could, I repeat could, get to 9 Wimbledons, but they'll do it in their 30s if they do. They will be competing against the young-up-and comers just as Martina did. And it would be a complete fallacy to say that Serena and Venus are NOT aware of Martina's record. They might not be chasing it down but they will have it at the back of their minds nevertheless. While whether or not they do catch or overtake Navrat is up for debate, Martina's comments are nothing out of the ordinary. Her words shouldn't be misconstrued. Legends play their best with the time they've got, and nobody likes to be surpassed in the tally of slams but Martina holds a fair few records besides that one.

jade001
Jul 16th, 2009, 11:01 AM
Perhaps..but this time there wasn't anything wrong. You can't let paranoia govern your life.

Too late for WS fans.:lol:

frenchie
Jul 16th, 2009, 11:03 AM
I don't think the WS care that much about matching records, especially Venus

They play for themselves

Miss Amor
Jul 16th, 2009, 11:06 AM
Unlike you , not everbody is obssesed with records, so just go away Morontina. The WS play for themselves.

In The Zone
Jul 16th, 2009, 11:08 AM
:shrug: I just don't see anyone other than Venus or Serena winning Wimbledon any time soon. The Sisters are not going anywhere. Likewise, the Wimbledon trophy will be staying in the Williams' household for a long time. :)

Martina really shouldn't be rooting against time. She should be rooting against one of the Sisters going on a streak. If they keep exchanging the title and fighting for it, it prevents one of them from tallying up fast. If Venus or Serena go on a roll ... then who knows. Serena, even in her physical shape at an older age, could compete on the grass for many years with her precise serve, powerful groundstrokes, and headless chickens running around as opponents from the WTA tour.

jade001
Jul 16th, 2009, 11:16 AM
:shrug: I just don't see anyone other than Venus or Serena winning Wimbledon any time soon. The Sisters are not going anywhere. Likewise, the Wimbledon trophy will be staying in the Williams' household for a long time. :).

That's only what you think, noone thought Henin woud retire in2008 after dominating the tout in2007, and we all know what happened, stop being so sure, Serena is winning, no doubt but she struggles most of time, so yeah Martina is right, time is running out. WS won't play well forever.

vwfan
Jul 16th, 2009, 01:27 PM
Why does Navratilova threaten so many people? I don't get it. She says perfectly reasonable things. And they get reported because the greatest player in the history of the sport. She won a slam title when she was FORTY-EIGHT.

In cycling, people don't say, "Why doesn't Lance Armstrong go away?" (Not many people anyway.)


In swimming, can you imagine people saying to Dana Torres "go away, you're too old", because 41 years old was too old to be a competitve swimmer? She only won THREE silver medals in the 2008 Olympics.

Yet in tennis, somehow, the idea that the greateast ever can still compete with the lesser ranks of today's player scraes the hell out of people. Make that WOMEN'S tennis. On the men's side, Federer vs Sampras generated excitement. A couple years back, when Nav requested wild cards into the slams, so idiots reacted with scorn.
And then when she actually beat a top twenty-five player ....

I'd like to hear a rational explanation for this.

Why does this woman frighten so many people so much?

Why is women's tennis virtually the only sport in which the continued competitiveess of a champion is derided instaed of celebrated?Well, context is everything. That said, I don't think Martina is threatening. Annoying, yes.

What bothers me about her is that she is so negative. She is a great player and made a major contribution to the sport, but I just don't see her as positive influence. When she does "speak her mind," it is never congratulatory or upbeat about players or the WTA. She seems to begrude the next generation their opportunity to shine. Everything seems to be about her and her time has passed. That's the problem and that is not even specific to Venus and Serena.

Venus has a wonderful relationship with another great legend of tennis and she says that BJK is always so encouraging and positive and still is trying to use her influence to promote women's tennis and not herself. Venus' comments at last year's Wimbledon about how much she loves and respects BJK and snubbing Martina says it all.

And for those who think it is because Martina is gay, NOT! BLK is gay too. . .

volta
Jul 16th, 2009, 01:36 PM
who said that the girls want to match any record? :unsure: they are happy with the way things are working out for them, Seles , Graf , Nav etc aren't even on their mind :shrug:

volta
Jul 16th, 2009, 01:40 PM
lol @ the responses in this thread. Pathetic.

She was just probably asked a question and she answered. She didn't make a press conference to inform us about this new breakthrough.

but isn't that what Serena for example does all the time as well? that doesn't stop ppl from complaining ... :shrug:

SAEKeithSerena
Jul 16th, 2009, 03:44 PM
She's so hypocritical, so fake...
1/ I'm sure she was pissing in her pants watching Venus lose that Wimbledon final.
2/ She won many Wimbledon titles in her 30s.

i get so sick of hearing martina's "opinions"

flyingmachine
Jul 16th, 2009, 03:47 PM
That's only what you think, noone thought Henin woud retire in2008 after dominating the tout in2007, and we all know what happened, stop being so sure, Serena is winning, no doubt but she struggles most of time, so yeah Martina is right, time is running out. WS won't play well forever.

I agree.

azinna
Jul 16th, 2009, 04:03 PM
Well, context is everything. That said, I don't think Martina is threatening. Annoying, yes.

What bothers me about her is that she is so negative. She is a great player and made a major contribution to the sport, but I just don't see her as positive influence. When she does "speak her mind," it is never congratulatory or upbeat about players or the WTA. She seems to begrude the next generation their opportunity to shine. Everything seems to be about her and her time has passed. That's the problem and that is not even specific to Venus and Serena.

Venus has a wonderful relationship with another great legend of tennis and she says that BJK is always so encouraging and positive and still is trying to use her influence to promote women's tennis and not herself. Venus' comments at last year's Wimbledon about how much she loves and respects BJK and snubbing Martina says it all.

And for those who think it is because Martina is gay, NOT! BLK is gay too. . .

This post above is an excellent answer to some folks' questions about the response to Martina. Thanks, vwfan.

For example: I'm sure the equally out-spoken BJK would've found some other way to say the same thing if asked. And many more fans would've appreciated a less self-aggrandizing legend, say Steffi Graf, playing well into her 30s. Or coming back to win several matches.

StephenUK
Jul 16th, 2009, 04:44 PM
I think Martina likes to remind everyone she is the best of all time. The Wimbledon record is the only one of her records that either sister (well only Venus realistically) has the slightest chance of matching and that is unlikely.

Having said that, there is one record held by Venus, Serena and Steffi that Martina does not hold...they are the only three players to have beaten all of the top 3 in the same tournament during the open era...I bet she doesn't like to be reminded of that!!

Helen Lawson
Jul 16th, 2009, 04:55 PM
I'm not feeling the love for Martina! They asked her, she actually gave a diplomatic answer. Neither Williams is even near matching, let alone breaking her record. What is she supposed to say, they're both too old to ever reach me? If she said that, you guys would be heaping scorn on her, even thought, let's face it, it's the truth. Venus might meet or beat, but it's remote. Martina gave a nice answer that they'll have to hurry up. What's wrong with that?

It was still pretty funny to watch Martina grimacing last year when Venus won. She's a sensitive gal, so what.

BlameSerena
Jul 16th, 2009, 05:11 PM
but isn't that what Serena for example does all the time as well? that doesn't stop ppl from complaining ... :shrug:

good point.

thrust
Jul 16th, 2009, 05:46 PM
she is so obssessed with the sisters,how come we never hear her say this about Dementieva,Momo,Dinara or chide Nicole her fellow Czech about her lack of commitment,or bash Jankovic about her lack of form.It seems like she is ever ready to diss the sisters at every opportunity.The sisters can retire today and their legacy is fabulous beyond measure,they have made their own records and it will take a long time to have two sisters dominate Wimbledon for almost a decade in doubles and singles.

Because the Sisters, especially Venus, are the ONLY players who have a chance to beat her record. The other players you mention NEVER had a chance to do so. I doubt if Martina cares anything about their tennis.

thrust
Jul 16th, 2009, 05:49 PM
I think Martina likes to remind everyone she is the best of all time. The Wimbledon record is the only one of her records that either sister (well only Venus realistically) has the slightest chance of matching and that is unlikely.

Having said that, there is one record held by Venus, Serena and Steffi that Martina does not hold...they are the only three players to have beaten all of the top 3 in the same tournament during the open era...I bet she doesn't like to be reminded of that!!

WOW! WHO CARES ABOUT THAT?

Martian Willow
Jul 16th, 2009, 06:03 PM
Shes promoting a WTT fixture in Manhattan. :)

SAEKeithSerena
Jul 16th, 2009, 06:03 PM
I'm not feeling the love for Martina! They asked her, she actually gave a diplomatic answer. Neither Williams is even near matching, let alone breaking her record. What is she supposed to say, they're both too old to ever reach me? If she said that, you guys would be heaping scorn on her, even thought, let's face it, it's the truth. Venus might meet or beat, but it's remote. Martina gave a nice answer that they'll have to hurry up. What's wrong with that?

It was still pretty funny to watch Martina grimacing last year when Venus won. She's a sensitive gal, so what.



have a good day helen:wavey:

Serenita
Jul 16th, 2009, 06:28 PM
Who cares what Morontina has to say
Serena and Venus dont play to break records, they play to win. They enjoy tennis. They truly have passion for the sport, unlike some.

Steffica Greles
Jul 16th, 2009, 06:35 PM
She's so hypocritical, so fake...
1/ I'm sure she was pissing in her pants watching Venus lose that Wimbledon final.
2/ She won many Wimbledon titles in her 30s.

1. I doubt it: even a Venus with 6 titles, at 29 years old, would have had to win three more consecutive titles, up to the age of 32, to even equal Martina's nine titles. Which would have been six consecutive titles in a row for Venus. Was always unlikely.

2. Martina won one title at 30, in 1987, but was struggling that year and got overtaken in the rankings by Graf. The next year, her knee was suffering and she couldn't push off on her serve; Graf murdered her. In 1989, she was clearly second best even working as hard as ever. In 1990, she won her last at 33.

So that's only two. If Venus wins two titles in her 30s, she finishes on seven Wimbledon titles.

ZODIAC
Jul 16th, 2009, 06:41 PM
in tennis years the sisters are 25yrs because they never played a lot so she cannot compare them with other players,they didnt play a lot from 2003 to 2006 so its minus 4 years from their actual age.They can add those four years to their careers starting now.

Steffica Greles
Jul 16th, 2009, 06:45 PM
in tennis years the sisters are 25yrs because they never played a lot so she cannot compare them with other players,they didnt play a lot from 2003 to 2006 so its minus 4 years from their actual age.They can add those four years to their careers starting now.
Do you not see the irony of your argument? Their injuries have helped them?

They haven't played a lot because physically their bodies haven't been able to with the high-power tennis they play. Their injuries have been innumerable. So does that bode well for their 30s? I think not.

ZODIAC
Jul 16th, 2009, 06:53 PM
Do you not see the irony of your argument? Their injuries have helped them?

They haven't played a lot because physically their bodies haven't been able to with the high-power tennis they play. Their injuries have been innumerable. So does that bode well for their 30s? I think not.but they are healed now:rolleyes:with proper fitness regime they can play well into their thirties its not like they have burntout or are tired of running from tournament to tournament,they have always paced themselves and will last longer than expected.Look at Serena she is like a brickhouse I dont see her burning out anytime soon plus they dont live for tennis they have other things that they do that keep them fresh.:rolleyes:

UDACHi
Jul 16th, 2009, 06:54 PM
:spit: everyone is so mad about this completely harmless and accurate quote.

Steffica Greles
Jul 16th, 2009, 07:11 PM
but they are healed now:rolleyes:with proper fitness regime they can play well into their thirties its not like they have burntout or are tired of running from tournament to tournament,they have always paced themselves and will last longer than expected.Look at Serena she is like a brickhouse I dont see her burning out anytime soon plus they dont live for tennis they have other things that they do that keep them fresh.:rolleyes:

You're very naive.

'With proper fitness'...well, we've been saying that about Serena since she was 23. It ain't going to happen, just as we waited her entire career for Seles to realise she needed to be in the shape she's now in.

Secondly, Serena and Venus never have played a lot, ever since they both started playing top class tennis in 1997/1998. And yet they still sustained injuries.

Physically, the Williams sisters can only go on so long. It all comes down to the other girls. At the moment, the likes of Fatiana Pigova, Averagetta Snoreapova and Imanotha Noiseyova seem to rule the roost, with crap, pig ugly tennis, which bores the pants off spectators and is easily beatable to exceptional players like the sisters. So the Williams girls are in with a chance of dominating for another 4-5 years, even on one leg. We'll see who else comes along.

LCS
Jul 16th, 2009, 07:19 PM
Navratilova and the records...Pathetic.

kiwifan
Jul 16th, 2009, 07:45 PM
Why does Navratilova threaten so many people? I don't get it. ...

Why is women's tennis virtually the only sport in which the continued competitiveess of a champion is derided instaed of celebrated?

Her continued competitiveness isn't 'threatening', it is kind of sad...like Al Bundy bringing up throwing 4 touchdowns in a high school football game.

We all know she's one of the all time greats; she just comes off pathetic blowing her own horn - directly or as in this case indirectly.

"And I hope when I get old I don't sit around thinking about it
but I probably will
Yeah, just sitting back trying to recapture
a little of the glory of, well time slips away
and leaves you with nothing mister but
boring stories of glory days"...

It is great to win lots of titles, especially Slams - but there is so much more to life and Martina really really really needs a "new hobby". :tape:

Sally Struthers
Jul 16th, 2009, 07:47 PM
what's the big deal? Some reporter asked her a question and she answered with the obvious but correct answer :shrug:

cn ireland
Jul 16th, 2009, 08:22 PM
Its kinda obvious that MN's Wimbledon record won't be broken but I doubt either WS really cares!!!

darrinbaker00
Jul 16th, 2009, 08:49 PM
Her continued competitiveness isn't 'threatening', it is kind of sad...like Al Bundy bringing up throwing 4 touchdowns in a high school football game.

We all know she's one of the all time greats; she just comes off pathetic blowing her own horn - directly or as in this case indirectly.

"And I hope when I get old I don't sit around thinking about it
but I probably will
Yeah, just sitting back trying to recapture
a little of the glory of, well time slips away
and leaves you with nothing mister but
boring stories of glory days"...

It is great to win lots of titles, especially Slams - but there is so much more to life and Martina really really really needs a "new hobby". :tape:
Once again, a radio host asked her a specific question in an interview, and she answered it. She's playing WTT for the same reason the Williams sisters are playing WTT: because Billie Jean King asked her to. Tennis has allowed Martina Navratilova to travel the world dozens, if not hundreds, of times over; it's allowed her to break bread and converse with royalty and heads of state; and it's made her a ton of money. Not bad for an "old hobby," if you ask me.

darrinbaker00
Jul 16th, 2009, 08:55 PM
Who cares what Morontina has to say
Serena and Venus dont play to break records, they play to win. They enjoy tennis. They truly have passion for the sport, unlike some.
To whom are you referring?

sweetpeas
Jul 16th, 2009, 09:21 PM
I don"t think Venus or Serena care"s what Martin think!I don:t!!!!!!

Matt01
Jul 16th, 2009, 09:34 PM
I don"t think Venus or Serena care"s what Martin think!I don:t!!!!!!


And I don't think that Martina cares about what Venus and Serena think.

Denise4925
Jul 16th, 2009, 09:48 PM
Nothing like stating the OBVIOUS Martina.

:lol::lol::lol:

Denise4925
Jul 16th, 2009, 09:49 PM
She was asked a question, and she answered it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Where's the question you keep talking about?

Denise4925
Jul 16th, 2009, 09:59 PM
Why does Navratilova threaten so many people? I don't get it. She says perfectly reasonable things. And they get reported because the greatest player in the history of the sport. She won a slam title when she was FORTY-EIGHT.

In cycling, people don't say, "Why doesn't Lance Armstrong go away?" (Not many people anyway.)


In swimming, can you imagine people saying to Dana Torres "go away, you're too old", because 41 years old was too old to be a competitve swimmer? She only won THREE silver medals in the 2008 Olympics.

Yet in tennis, somehow, the idea that the greateast ever can still compete with the lesser ranks of today's player scraes the hell out of people. Make that WOMEN'S tennis. On the men's side, Federer vs Sampras generated excitement. A couple years back, when Nav requested wild cards into the slams, so idiots reacted with scorn.
And then when she actually beat a top twenty-five player ....

I'd like to hear a rational explanation for this.



Because, she has such a nasty attitude and it's hard to like her at all. :shrug: Plus, the need for her own glorification is obvious. The woman wants idolization and it's off-putting.

Denise4925
Jul 16th, 2009, 10:15 PM
Her continued competitiveness isn't 'threatening', it is kind of sad...like Al Bundy bringing up throwing 4 touchdowns in a high school football game.

We all know she's one of the all time greats; she just comes off pathetic blowing her own horn - directly or as in this case indirectly.

"And I hope when I get old I don't sit around thinking about it
but I probably will
Yeah, just sitting back trying to recapture
a little of the glory of, well time slips away
and leaves you with nothing mister but
boring stories of glory days"...

It is great to win lots of titles, especially Slams - but there is so much more to life and Martina really really really needs a "new hobby". :tape:

:worship::worship::worship:

Miss Amor
Jul 16th, 2009, 10:57 PM
Her continued competitiveness isn't 'threatening', it is kind of sad...like Al Bundy bringing up throwing 4 touchdowns in a high school football game.



It is great to win lots of titles, especially Slams - but there is so much more to life and Martina really really really needs a "new hobby". :tape:

Her "Old Hobby" is suing her, I doubt she will get a new one anytime soon.

LightWarrior
Jul 16th, 2009, 11:01 PM
1. I doubt it: even a Venus with 6 titles, at 29 years old, would have had to win three more consecutive titles, up to the age of 32, to even equal Martina's nine titles. Which would have been six consecutive titles in a row for Venus. Was always unlikely.


Venus is far more athletic than Nav. Richard Williams said Venus could win Wimbledon at 35. I believe him. Actually I believe Wimbledon is the only reason why Venus will play until 35 or so. It's too bad she spoiled this year's final. I admit it will be hard to achieve, especially is she faces Serena again in the coming years. But she can certainly match Graf's 7 Wimbledons.

Steffica Greles
Jul 16th, 2009, 11:18 PM
Venus is far more athletic than Nav. Richard Williams said Venus could win Wimbledon at 35. I believe him. Actually I believe Wimbledon is the only reason why Venus will play until 35 or so. It's too bad she spoiled this year's final. I admit it will be hard to achieve, especially is she faces Serena again in the coming years. But she can certainly match Graf's 7 Wimbledons.
It's not impossible, but like I said, all depends on who else comes along...Venus won't be at her peak at 35...she's past her peak even now.

I think Navratilova can't really be called less athletic than anybody really. The woman has pushed boundaries no woman in sport ever has done.

darrinbaker00
Jul 16th, 2009, 11:30 PM
Where's the question you keep talking about?
Do you really think she gave that quote randomly, De? You're smarter than that.

ZODIAC
Jul 16th, 2009, 11:40 PM
It's not impossible, but like I said, all depends on who else comes along...Venus won't be at her peak at 35...she's past her peak even now.

I think Navratilova can't really be called less athletic than anybody really. The woman has pushed boundaries no woman in sport ever has done.she is past her peak but she can still bagel the no.1 player in the world and outrun 20yr olds.:rolleyes:she bagelled three 20yr olds:tape:the only person who can stop her at Wimbledon is Serena or Venus:p

Denise4925
Jul 16th, 2009, 11:48 PM
Do you really think she gave that quote randomly, De? You're smarter than that.

Knowing Martina and her glory seeking ways, yes. Come on you know Martina, darrin. You're smarter than that. :lol:

Zweli
Jul 17th, 2009, 12:00 AM
She feels bad she is not in the spotlight anymore so she saw fitting to run her mouth so we can remember she is still alive and about to be burried alive by her ex.

serenafann
Jul 17th, 2009, 12:30 AM
One word for Martina... Yuckkkkk

SelesFan70
Jul 17th, 2009, 12:53 AM
Nothing like stating the OBVIOUS Martina.

Which is why she's a HORRIBLE commentator. :o

Steffica Greles
Jul 17th, 2009, 01:20 AM
she is past her peak but she can still bagel the no.1 player in the world and outrun 20yr olds.:rolleyes:she bagelled three 20yr olds:tape:the only person who can stop her at Wimbledon is Serena or Venus:p

Agreed. And yet I get pilloried for saying women's tennis is in the depths of despair. Which it is. Take nothing away from Venus, she'd be supreme in any era. But you hope the others will rise as champions slowly fall.

kiwifan
Jul 17th, 2009, 01:27 AM
Tennis has allowed Martina Navratilova to travel the world dozens, if not hundreds, of times over; it's allowed her to break bread and converse with royalty and heads of state; and it's made her a ton of money. Not bad for an "old hobby," if you ask me.

Paris Hilton gets to do all that shit too. :p

Bottom line, she knows Serena and Venus' careers to date have not been about trying to catch her records - they clearly have a different outlook on life.

You know for a first class ball breaker of a poster, you sure can get your panties in a bunch. :p

She just got caught in another of her Al Bundy moments, no one is taking anything away from her stellar achievements...she's just not and has never been the yardstick that Richard or his daughters have measure tennis success by...and that's from the very beginning of their careers.

Amanda
Jul 17th, 2009, 02:39 AM
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo126/theybf/July%2009/648856ec.jpg "Call me Miss Vee"

darrinbaker00
Jul 17th, 2009, 03:09 AM
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo126/theybf/July%2009/648856ec.jpg "Call me Miss Vee"
Congress should pass a law banning Venus Williams from wearing dresses, skirts or pants that go below the knees. Covering up those legs is like painting a mustache on the Mona Lisa.

serenafann
Jul 17th, 2009, 03:33 AM
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo126/theybf/July%2009/648856ec.jpg "Call me Miss Vee"


I love that look for Venus :hearts:

Miranda
Jul 17th, 2009, 04:20 AM
i don't know why the posters are critising Martina, her words are not offensive, she is just stating the fact, most human's bodies do slow down after 30, though I like Venus, Martina might me right, she needs to win 5 more wimby to surpass Martina, which is not easy :wavey:

ZODIAC
Jul 17th, 2009, 01:27 PM
i don't know why the posters are critising Martina, her words are not offensive, she is just stating the fact, most human's bodies do slow down after 30, though I like Venus, Martina might me right, she needs to win 5 more wimby to surpass Martina, which is not easy :wavey:I dont think Venus is chasing Martina s records and doesnt care much about her,she hardly mentions her in any presser.The former player she idolizes is Billie and I am sure she looks up to her and would want to emulate her.Venus has made her own records that other players would want to achieve like 3 Olympic gold medals,defending 2 different grand slams back to back,winning Wimbledon singles and doubles in the same year.These are the stats for your info:p

Apoleb
Jul 17th, 2009, 04:44 PM
Yes, Venus and Serena don't care about achievements and putting their names higher in the record books. I'm sure Martina's 9 Wimbledons is not even on Venus' mind nor BJK's 12 GS titles are on Serena's mind. No wonder that the delusional WS fans made themselves believe that.

soulja_boy_swag
Jul 17th, 2009, 04:48 PM
NEW YORK -- Martina Navratilova says the Williams sisters need to hurry to match her record of nine Wimbledon singles titles.

The 29-year-old Venus lost to Serena at Wimbledon this month, keeping her at five. Serena now has three Wimbledon crowns and is 15 months younger.

"They'll have to play a lot of years to catch up," Navratilova said in a phone interview. "Venus really needed to win this year. The closer you get to 30, the body starts slowing down. It doesn't obey as well."

On Wednesday night, Navratilova and the Boston Lobsters of World Team Tennis will face John McEnroe and the New York Sportimes in Manhattan.

The 52-year-old Navratilova is playing a record 20th season for World Team Tennis and is a commentator for The Tennis Channel.



Thank you for all your intellect, Martina! Truly remarkable. :bounce::lol:

"NO SHIT!"

black folks dont age at 30 years like white people, unless they be sippin on syrup, then they start aging fast like white folks, venus at 30 is really 20 years old, martina has some nasty looking hands thick nasty wrinkly veins, she aged bad and she can barely smile with that botox face of hers, she just hatin on the williams girls, that broad drinks haterade all day long

volta
Jul 17th, 2009, 05:02 PM
Yes, Venus and Serena don't care about achievements and putting their names higher in the record books. I'm sure Martina's 9 Wimbledons is not even on Venus' mind nor BJK's 12 GS titles are on Serena's mind. No wonder that the delusional WS fans made themselves believe that.

their goal is WIN and not break records.

their ultimate goal is to win every tournament that they enter and not because there is a record to be broken. records will be broken if they keep on winning but that's not where their focus is :wavey:

Serena will want to win her next slam because it's a slam and because she loves to win and not because she'll tie BJK's record. Will it give an extra motivation? sure but that's all.
None of them got where they are by aiming at the records

ZODIAC
Jul 17th, 2009, 05:23 PM
black folks dont age at 30 years like white people, unless they be sippin on syrup, then they start aging fast like white folks, venus at 30 is really 20 years old, martina has some nasty looking hands thick nasty wrinkly veins, she aged bad and she can barely smile with that botox face of hers, she just hatin on the williams girls, that broad drinks haterade all day long:worship:look at Serena she is a brickhouse,I dont see her slowing down anytime soon unless she gets a serious injury or gets married and has a baby.Venus is like a sprinter she is 24yrs in tennis yrs:wavey:

DemWilliamsGulls
Jul 17th, 2009, 05:53 PM
Fuck a Navitorlova nobody is trying to chase her record. She was her own person in HER time..she can only play half the tennis Venus and Serena can play. No one is thinking of her or John McEnroe..they are the only ones who mention themselves...they are HAS BEENS....the game has moved on to bigger and better players.

Denise4925
Jul 17th, 2009, 09:05 PM
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo126/theybf/July%2009/648856ec.jpg "Call me Miss Vee"

That's a beautiful picture of Vee.

vwfan
Jul 17th, 2009, 09:27 PM
she is past her peak but she can still bagel the no.1 player in the world and outrun 20yr olds.:rolleyes:she bagelled three 20yr olds:tape:the only person who can stop her at Wimbledon is Serena or Venus:pexactly.

vwfan
Jul 17th, 2009, 09:29 PM
I dont think Venus is chasing Martina s records and doesnt care much about her,she hardly mentions her in any presser.The former player she idolizes is Billie and I am sure she looks up to her and would want to emulate her.Venus has made her own records that other players would want to achieve like 3 Olympic gold medals,defending 2 different grand slams back to back,winning Wimbledon singles and doubles in the same year.These are the stats for your info:p
fastest serve record at ALL FOUR grand slams.

friendsita
Jul 18th, 2009, 01:07 AM
duhhh

WowWow
Jul 18th, 2009, 03:19 AM
Go Vee!:hearts:
Shut up Martina!:tape:
As for Serena, I don't really care much.:lol:

fufuqifuqishahah
Jul 18th, 2009, 08:36 AM
LOL @ everyone influenced by the OP of this thread and being so hostile at Martina

Lindsayfan32
Jul 18th, 2009, 10:44 AM
I think Navratilova's record is safe. I don't think the Williams sisters will play long enough to come close. Venus might but she would have to win the next four straight and I don't think that's going to happen. :)

Lulu.
Jul 18th, 2009, 10:58 AM
Fuck a Navratilova nobody is trying to chase her record. She was her own person in HER time..she can only play half the tennis Venus and Serena can play. No one is thinking of her or John McEnroe..they are the only ones who mention themselves...they are HAS BEENS....the game has moved on to bigger and better players.

Well said.

AcesHigh
Jul 18th, 2009, 11:40 AM
:lol: at the has beens quotes. Navratilova is a bigger tennis great than Venus and Serena combined. I dont know why some ridiculous posters on here go apeshit everytime her name is mentioned. I'm sure she can care less what any of you or Venus or Serena think.

Pat Bateman
Jul 18th, 2009, 12:10 PM
fastest serve record at ALL FOUR grand slams.
:rolleyes: Whoop de freakin do

Martina is right.
Some people just can't handle the truth.

cellophane
Jul 18th, 2009, 03:30 PM
black folks dont age at 30 years like white people, unless they be sippin on syrup, then they start aging fast like white folks, venus at 30 is really 20 years old, martina has some nasty looking hands thick nasty wrinkly veins, she aged bad and she can barely smile with that botox face of hers, she just hatin on the williams girls, that broad drinks haterade all day long

I think you are the one sippin' on syrup.

Knizzle
Jul 18th, 2009, 06:18 PM
:lol: at the has beens quotes. Navratilova is a bigger tennis great than Venus and Serena combined. I dont know why some ridiculous posters on here go apeshit everytime her name is mentioned. I'm sure she can care less what any of you or Venus or Serena think.But that's just the problem....she DOES....

azinna
Jul 18th, 2009, 08:58 PM
^ I very much believe this. Can't say for certain, of course, but a part of me feels she wants to be recognized as a standard bearer by the Williams sisters. Short of that, she'll keep talking till she's heard.

AcesHigh
Jul 18th, 2009, 11:17 PM
What would make you think she wants recognition from the WS?

moby
Jul 18th, 2009, 11:25 PM
Fuck a Navitorlova nobody is trying to chase her record. She was her own person in HER time..she can only play half the tennis Venus and Serena can play. No one is thinking of her or John McEnroe..they are the only ones who mention themselves...they are HAS BEENS....the game has moved on to bigger and better players.:haha: Navratilova has achievements that Venus and Serena can only dream of, and tennis history will rightly remember that.

Going by that logic, Venus and Serena will become "have-beens" some day. I'll get a kick seeing how the Williams fans react when the next generation of tennis fans mention that the game has moved on to better players. :lol: Or maybe they'll cease to remain tennis fans once Venus and Serena retire. :shrug:

azinna
Jul 18th, 2009, 11:27 PM
What would make you think she wants recognition from the WS?

Yes, AcesHigh, I've got no real proof at all. Just hunches, which don't count for much. But I've seen how she reacts in interviews -- for example at this year's Wimbledon with Jankovic -- when she gets that recognition. There's that nod, her face immediately relaxes and her questioning doesn't simply soften; it flatters.

Martina has put her all into tennis; and just like with any similarly invested elder in any given field, she seems to want the best of the younger generation to vocally recognize how she may have influenced them. In fact, the opposite attitude -- perhaps Graf's -- is much less frequent. And even Steffi deeply appreciates Justine's comments.

Denise4925
Jul 18th, 2009, 11:32 PM
:haha: Navratilova has achievements that Venus and Serena can only dream of, and tennis history will rightly remember that.

Going by that logic, Venus and Serena will become "have-beens" some day. I'll get a kick seeing how the Williams fans react when the next generation of tennis fans mention that the game has moved on to better players. :lol: Or maybe they'll cease to remain tennis fans once Venus and Serena retire. :shrug:

As some have ceased to be fans since Steffi Graf, Seles, BJK, Nav, Hingis, et al. I wonder what makes you distinguish Venus and Serena fans. :confused:

It couldn't be racial, could it, since you are aware that there are many fans of either Venus or Serena or both are not just black people in America.

It couldn't be because their style of tennis isn't real tennis, since they have won equal to or more slam championships since Steffi Graf and half the tour mimics their style of play. What could you possibly mean by that statement? Because I haven't seen you or anyone else make the same statement about fans any other player retired or active.

Can you please explain what you mean?

AcesHigh
Jul 18th, 2009, 11:33 PM
Eh... I don't think it has anything specifically to do with the WS. I think that Martina maybe doesnt believe she got the credit or attention she deserves. Her entire comeback seemed to be a "HEY! LOOK AT ME! REMEMBER ME?" move.

Almost in the middle of her career (well, towards the end) Steffi came and took the tour(and world) by storm. When we think of GOAT, so many people quickly state Graf or Court without really giving significant mention to Nav.

I think she appreciates any recognition she gets. I dont think she's bitter or jealous. If I achieved as much as she did and never really got the attention or credit for it that Graf, Evert and others got, I can't say I wouldnt behave or appear the same way.

azinna
Jul 18th, 2009, 11:40 PM
Navratilova doesn't get the recognition or attention she deserves for her achievements? I don't really buy that, AcesHigh. She's regularly considered to be the greatest female tennis player, especially when doubles are thrown in. In fact, you have to discount doubles to make a respectable argument for Graf; that's after you get the asterisks off for Seles. And folks regularly dismiss Court with a multi-slam-erasing wave.

Yes, Evert was more popular as the American Darling during the 70s and 80s. And Martina suffered financially for coming out while a player. But she is also repeatedly said to be the winner of one of the greatest rivalries in sport, period. Any sports magazine releasing an issue on rivalries has got to mention her. And they do. In fact, any magazine publishing an issue on the greatest sports figures of the 20th century has to consider a paragraph on Navratilova. And they often print it.

Plus, her records are repeated whenever Wimbledon -- the premier tournament -- comes up. During that 1994 run everyone adored her and were rooting for her to win. And she's come back every single year, seated in both the royal box and in the commentator's booth. Anyone still hankering for more recognition after that is overly invested in what people think of her.

As for the Williams sisters specifically, I began to notice a slight fixation way back when she declared she wanted to and could beat them. I held judgment for a good while, but couldn't help but notice how insistent she was on taking on Venus or Serena in doubles, then singles. It bled into her commentary, too. Perhaps it's just because they're the best of this active generation. She was similarly unenthusiastic about Graf until she retired in '99.

Thanx4nothin
Jul 18th, 2009, 11:53 PM
If anything, Graf and Evert get LESS recognition than NAV....

moby
Jul 18th, 2009, 11:56 PM
As some have ceased to be fans since Steffi Graf, Seles, BJK, Nav, Hingis, et al. I wonder what makes you distinguish Venus and Serena fans. :confused:

It couldn't be racial, could it, since you are aware that there are many fans of either Venus or Serena or both are not just black people in America.

It couldn't be because their style of tennis isn't real tennis, since they have won equal to or more slam championships since Steffi Graf and half the tour mimics their style of play. What could you possibly mean by that statement? Because I haven't seen you or anyone else make the same statement about fans any other player retired or active.

Can you please explain what you mean?You totally missed the point of my post.

All I'm saying is that some Williams fans have no sense of historicity - they seem to think that all of tennis revolves around Venus and Serena (just in another thread on the best lobs, Knizzle provided a quintessential example of this :tape:), and they speak nonsense about the legends of the past. I'm just curious as too how they will react when other fanbases from the future react similarly and disrespectfully towards the Williams sisters... and it occured to me that the self-same arrogance that had these Williams fans discount the past may also cause them to discount the future. Why continue to be a tennis fan if you think the Williamses are the end-all of tennis?

I don't really care about what other fanbases think, because this is not the thread for that, and also because I do think that this particular fanbase carries self-aggrandizement to a new level.

P.S. Furthermore, as an aside, I'd like to add that IMO some supporters of V&S are indeed so because of racial factors. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. They are great role-models for the black community.

Nicolás89
Jul 19th, 2009, 12:07 AM
What would make you think she wants recognition from the WS?

I think it was last year's Wimbledon final when Martina and BJK were in the crowd and Venus was giving her speech thanking BJK for beign an inspiration to her and just in that moment the camera goes to Martina who had such disappointment written all over her face when Venus ended her speech and she wasn't even mentioned, it was so funny. :lol:

Denise4925
Jul 19th, 2009, 12:07 AM
You totally missed the point of my post.

All I'm saying is that some Williams fans have no sense of historicity - they seem to think that all of tennis revolves around Venus and Serena (just in another thread on the best lobs, Knizzle provided a quintessential example of this :tape:), and they speak nonsense about the legends of the past. I'm just curious as too how they will react when other fanbases from the future react similarly and disrespectfully towards the Williams sisters... and it occured to me that the self-same arrogance that had these Williams fans discount the past may also cause them to discount the future. Why continue to be a tennis fan if you think the Williamses are the end-all of tennis?

I don't really care about what other fanbases think, because this is not the thread for that, and also because I do think that this particular fanbase carries self-aggrandizement to a new level.

Would that be the whole fanbase? And this is why you don't care what other fanbases think? You'd rather concentrate on the WS fanbase, is that it?

Also, was it just the WS fans in this thread that were disrespectful, in your opinion, towards Martina Nav?

So just because, in your opinion, some or all (I'm not sure which) WS fans disrespect this particular tennis legend, they are all "same-self arrogant" and "self-aggrandizing" and some have no sense of history and will not appreciate tennis beyond the WS?

Forgive me, I'm just trying to understand.

AcesHigh
Jul 19th, 2009, 12:08 AM
Idk... Navratilova comes off to me as someone who maybe believes she should get more attention and respect. Someone who thinks she should have been the greatest. But I'm not a Navratilova fan. I just love her game and wish I was alive during her peak to watch her play. I only have tapes and youtube vids.

Or maybe she wishes she could have done more with her career? I honestly have no idea. Something is there, but I dont think any of us will ever know unless she comes out with a tell-all book. I just dont think we should jump to conclusions or accusations.

Denise4925
Jul 19th, 2009, 12:15 AM
P.S. Furthermore, as an aside, I'd like to add that IMO some supporters of V&S are indeed so because of racial factors. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. They are great role-models for the black community.

:scratch: "Racial factors." And, what does that have to do with this thread and the fact that you think they won't be interested in tennis after the WS?

Also, don't you think not only are V&S great role models for the "black community", but also for any racial community which is why they are loved beyond racial barriers?

There are many who are great role models for the black community, including parents, teachers, doctors etc. and many who are great role models for the white, hispanic, asian, etc. communities. I guess I'm not understanding your statement regarding them being "role models for the black community".

moby
Jul 19th, 2009, 12:20 AM
Denise, I've no aspirations to be an instructor in Reading & Communication 101.

If you need handholding, please consult your close friends or employ a private tutor.

Denise4925
Jul 19th, 2009, 12:23 AM
Denise, I've no aspirations to be an instructor in Reading & Communication 101.

If you need handholding, please consult your close friends or employ a private tutor.

Oh, is that Smartass for "I put my foot in my fucking mouth and I don't know how to explain it away"? :lol:

Vlover
Jul 19th, 2009, 12:54 AM
Oh, is that Smartass for "I put my foot in my fucking mouth and I don't know how to explain it away"? :lol:

For sure!:lol: Also note carefully who played the "race" card and when you asked him to explain you are left to assume.:lol:

It is very interesting that so many are so "concerned" about how the Williams fan base will react when the Sisters retire. As far as I know they will be no different from all the other fan bases of other retired players. What ever human nature dictates so it is.

Dawn Marie
Jul 19th, 2009, 12:56 AM
martina, needs some couseling. she is not satisfied.

anyway, who's to say Serena can't reel off 5 straight wimby titles. with the way that serena serves she can win 5 straight. and we all could be like Vee who in 5 years?? lol

Denise4925
Jul 19th, 2009, 01:02 AM
For sure!:lol: Also note carefully who played the "race" card and when you asked him to explain you are left to assume.:lol:

It is very interesting that so many are so "concerned" about how the Williams fan base will react when the Sisters retire. As far as I know they will be no different from all the other fan bases of other retired players. What ever human nature dictates so it is.

:lol: I'm glad someone besides myself saw that.

I think some people think that WS fans are some species other than human.:lol:

azinna
Jul 19th, 2009, 01:10 AM
Idk... Navratilova comes off to me as someone who maybe believes she should get more attention and respect.... Or maybe she wishes she could have done more with her career? I honestly have no idea. Something is there, but I dont think any of us will ever know unless she comes out with a tell-all book. I just dont think we should jump to conclusions or accusations.

AcesHigh, you're pretty much doing the same thing: reading Martina, but admitting that your reading is part conjecture without absolute proof (like a letter or revealing memoir). It's what we do as fans. Otherwise, we'd stick to reporting the scores of matches.

PS: I was a young but avid fan of the game during her prime, and regularly bet money against my mom (r.i.p.) during the Evert-Navratilova rivalry. Mom regularly collected those dollar bills in the late-late-70s and early-early 80s. But I stuck with Martina and recouped my losses by the mid-1980s. Loved her then. Wish she was happier now.

Matt01
Jul 19th, 2009, 01:14 AM
Denise, I've no aspirations to be an instructor in Reading & Communication 101.

If you need handholding, please consult your close friends or employ a private tutor.


:D

Miss Amor
Jul 19th, 2009, 01:18 AM
Oh, is that Smartass for "I put my foot in my fucking mouth and I don't know how to explain it away"? :lol:

Owned.

AcesHigh
Jul 19th, 2009, 01:21 AM
AcesHigh, you're pretty much doing the same thing: reading Martina, but admitting that your reading is part conjecture without absolute proof (like a letter or revealing memoir). It's what we do as fans. Otherwise, we'd stick to reporting the scores of matches.

PS: I was a young but avid fan of the game during her prime, and regularly bet money against my mom (r.i.p.) during the Evert-Navratilova rivalry. Mom regularly collected those dollar bills in the late-late-70s and early-early 80s. But I stuck with Martina and recouped my losses by the mid-1980s. Loved her then. Wish she was happier now.

Yea... :lol: I wasnt talking about you though. I mean the people who are saying she was jealous or was upset when Venus didnt mention her name. I think that's a bit too much.

And yea, I wish Martina was happier now.. maybe she is.. who knows.. I hope she's fine with everything b/c she provided the tennis world with an amazing career and I'm happy to have her presence in the tennis world today.

Donny
Jul 19th, 2009, 01:25 AM
\

P.S. Furthermore, as an aside, I'd like to add that IMO some supporters of V&S are indeed so because of racial factors. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. They are great role-models for the black community.

That's cool. Why aren't you a fan of Venus and Serena? Is it because of racial factors as well?

Oh wait, that's just me playing the race card. Silly me.

Denise4925
Jul 19th, 2009, 01:28 AM
That's cool. Why aren't you a fan of Venus and Serena? Is it because of racial factors as well?

Oh wait, that's just me playing the race card. Silly me.

:lol::lol::lol:

Harvs
Jul 19th, 2009, 01:53 AM
lol she obviously got asked the question and she answered it.
id say "no shit, state the obvious" to the person who opened the thread lol..

Vlover
Jul 19th, 2009, 03:27 AM
:lol: I'm glad someone besides myself saw that.

I think some people think that WS fans are some species other than human.:lol:
Yea, and they can only be role models to that other species and no one else. I guess players like Hingis are the "real" role models for the "real" tennis fans.:haha: Anyway Williams fans, be on notice you are being watched closely.:lol:

Nicolás89
Jul 19th, 2009, 03:44 AM
Yea, and they can only be role models to that other species and no one else. I guess players like Hingis are the "real" role models for the "real" tennis fans.:haha: Anyway Williams fans, be on notice you are being watched closely.:lol:

WTF is your problem? :weirdo:

Knizzle
Jul 19th, 2009, 05:46 AM
You totally missed the point of my post.

All I'm saying is that some Williams fans have no sense of historicity - they seem to think that all of tennis revolves around Venus and Serena (just in another thread on the best lobs, Knizzle provided a quintessential example of this :tape:), and they speak nonsense about the legends of the past. I'm just curious as too how they will react when other fanbases from the future react similarly and disrespectfully towards the Williams sisters... and it occured to me that the self-same arrogance that had these Williams fans discount the past may also cause them to discount the future. Why continue to be a tennis fan if you think the Williamses are the end-all of tennis?

I don't really care about what other fanbases think, because this is not the thread for that, and also because I do think that this particular fanbase carries self-aggrandizement to a new level.

P.S. Furthermore, as an aside, I'd like to add that IMO some supporters of V&S are indeed so because of racial factors. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. They are great role-models for the black community.The OP of that thread proved that it revolves around them if anything, and let's not play stupid like you dont know the history of this board, and the countless times people have labeled the sisters brainless on the court and that they've been made to look stupid, foolish, etc., by a player because they've hit a lob over the sisters head in singles or doubles. That's why I knew that first post would include a lob over a sister's head. Some of the newer posters here may be able to act brand new, but you've been here longer than I have so you know posters LIKE YOU take every opportunity to try and bash the sisters saying they play mindless tennis and don't have any effective strategy.

Knizzle
Jul 19th, 2009, 05:47 AM
On topic though I wish I could find the interview of Venus by Nav at Wimbledon 2002 prior to the start of the tournament, that would explain the point clearly.

Pat Bateman
Jul 19th, 2009, 08:08 AM
The OP of that thread proved that it revolves around them if anything, and let's not play stupid like you dont know the history of this board, and the countless times people have labeled the sisters brainless on the court and that they've been made to look stupid, foolish, etc., by a player because they've hit a lob over the sisters head in singles or doubles. That's why I knew that first post would include a lob over a sister's head. Some of the newer posters here may be able to act brand new, but you've been here longer than I have so you know posters LIKE YOU take every opportunity to try and bash the sisters saying they play mindless tennis and don't have any effective strategy.

Jeezus..Paranoid much?:lol:

Vlover
Jul 19th, 2009, 07:53 PM
On topic though I wish I could find the interview of Venus by Nav at Wimbledon 2002 prior to the start of the tournament, that would explain the point clearly.
Martina practically begged Venus to say what she admired about her game and Venus of course refused to give her the validation she was desperately seeking. From that day forward Martina have been on a hater campaign against Vee. Niether Venus or Serena are interested in chasing other people records or seek their validation. If their sole purpose was to break records I think they would have spent all their time on tennis only like all the other players.

In the end their accomplishments will stand on their own along with their outstanding unique story and will be remembered more than most of those who have the more titles.

Matt01
Jul 19th, 2009, 07:59 PM
Martina practically begged Venus to say what she admired about her game and Venus of course refused to give her the validation she was desperately seeking.


No wonder that Venus cannot appreciate Martinas' style...since she plays a whole different game than Martina.
Martina played a beautiful serve-and-volleys-game while Venus does ugly ball-bashing with poor technique.

Denise4925
Jul 19th, 2009, 08:11 PM
Martina practically begged Venus to say what she admired about her game and Venus of course refused to give her the validation she was desperately seeking. From that day forward Martina have been on a hater campaign against Vee. Niether Venus or Serena are interested in chasing other people records or seek their validation. If their sole purpose was to break records I think they would have spent all their time on tennis only like all the other players.

In the end their accomplishments will stand on their own along with their outstanding unique story and will be remembered more than most of those who have the more titles.

:worship::worship::worship: I remember that interview like it was yesterday.:lol:

Denise4925
Jul 19th, 2009, 08:12 PM
No wonder that Venus cannot appreciate Martinas' style...since she plays a whole different game than Martina.
Martina played a beautiful serve-and-volleys-game while Venus does ugly ball-bashing with poor technique.

:lol: You sound like a 5 year old. :lol:

Apoleb
Jul 19th, 2009, 09:18 PM
. Wish she was happier now.

:lol:

I sort of love the mind reading that goes on on this forum. She might just be a very opinionated woman who isn't head over feet over the WS (which is certainly a possibility for any tennis fan). That doesn't make her a bitter, "sad", "obsessed" woman who's desperate for recognition. She certainly loved Justine (justifying her admiration simply because of her game), even though I don't recall Justine ever mentioning her as an inspiration (her idol being Steffi).

The bottom point is: we don't know her. I wish we can skip the psychobabble, and instead of the personal insults, focus on the points that sometimes she's trying to make. For all the craziness in this thread, there's nothing to suggest she did anything wrong from this thread.

There's certainly tons of insecurity from the WS fans part, or else they wouldn't go crazy every time she opens her mouth. Or suggest that Martina's records and other great achievements (by her and other players) are irrelevant for the WS, and how they'll be judged in the future. :tape:

Apoleb
Jul 19th, 2009, 09:38 PM
P.S. Furthermore, as an aside, I'd like to add that IMO some supporters of V&S are indeed so because of racial factors. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. They are great role-models for the black community.

What's wrong with this statement? Anyone who's read this board for more than 2 days can recognize that Venus and Serena's ethnic background is a factor in the support they receive from some of their fans (example: I remember Volcana openly recognizing that, and suggesting that if Sharapova were black, he might be supporting her). Or else race wouldn't be such a hot topic over here. It's not different from any other of the nationalistic support other players receive.

Denise4925
Jul 19th, 2009, 09:42 PM
What's wrong with this statement? Anyone who's read this board for more than 2 days can recognize that Venus and Serena's ethnic background is a factor in the support they receive from some of their fans (example: I remember Volcana openly recognizing that). Or else race wouldn't be such a hot topic over here. It's not different from any other of the nationalistic support other players receive.

What does the statement have to do with the topic or whether or not the WS fans will be tennis fans after the WS retire? And, whatever the answer is, does that also translate to nationalistic support other players receive?

And for the record, Volcana is not the spokesman for black people on this message board. Whatever he said was his opinion, not a statement of fact. And, race is a hot topic because of fucked up, inappropriate statements for effect like moby made here, that he can't even support with argument.

Vlover
Jul 19th, 2009, 09:50 PM
There's certainly tons of insecurity from the WS fans part, or else they wouldn't go crazy every time she opens her mouth. Or suggest that Martina's records and other great achievements (by her and other players) are irrelevant for the WS, and how they'll be judged in the future. :tape:
Clearly the insecure one is Martina as she is the one constantly seeking attention. Of couse most Williams fans can't stand her for good reasons and they have the right to state their opinions as much as Martina does. Martina's achievements are irrelevant to the Sisters because they are not competing with her in anyway. The Sisters story and achievements are independent of everyone else.

Apoleb
Jul 19th, 2009, 09:52 PM
What does the statement have to do with the topic or whether or not the WS fans will be tennis fans after the WS retire? And, whatever the answer is, does that also translate to nationalistic support other players receive?

Yes. For example, we saw a sudden spike of Serbian posters (just to mention an example before I get killed, among other fan waves i.e the Belgians) because of Jelena's and Ana's success. I would assume that their numbers would go down after they retire (and if no Serbian players come along). I think they are already dwindling. :tape:


And for the record, Volcana is not the spokesman for black people on this message board. Whatever he said was his opinion, not a statement of fact. And, race is a hot topic because of fucked up, inappropriate statements for effect like moby made here, that he can't even support with argument.

Who said he's a spokesman of anything. I mentioned him as an example of a fan openly mentioning race as a factor in his support of Venus and Serena. I also think that's a factor in other of their fans' support.

Vlover
Jul 19th, 2009, 09:58 PM
WTF is your problem? :weirdo:
No problem here! Perfectly fine. I just came back from a great vacation and everything is all good.:hearts: What is up with you?;)

Denise4925
Jul 19th, 2009, 10:00 PM
Yes. For example, we saw a sudden spike of Serbian posters (just to mention an example before I get killed, among other fan waves i.e the Belgians) because of Jelena's and Ana's success. I would assume that their numbers would go down after they retire (and if no Serbian players come along). I think they are already dwindling. :tape:

Of course because they have an active player to talk about. But why would you assume that just because their numbers dwindle on this message board in posting that they are no longer interested in tennis? It's pure speculation and really a rather weak argument with no facts to back it up.

Who said he's a spokesman of anything. I mentioned him as an example of a fan openly mentioning race as a factor in his support of Venus and Serena. I also think that's a factor in other of their fans' support.

But you used him as an authority on the subject to support your argument. If you didn't feel he had some authority on the subject, then why use him as an example. Again, he is one person. Not representative of an entire fanbase worldwide (black or white).

But, let's get back to your original question: "What's wrong with this statement?" and my question to you: "What does the statement have to do with the topic or whether or not the WS fans will be tennis fans after the WS retire?"

Vlover
Jul 19th, 2009, 10:05 PM
Yes. For example, we saw a sudden spike of Serbian posters (just to mention an example before I get killed, among other fan waves i.e the Belgians) because of Jelena's and Ana's success. I would assume that their numbers would go down after they retire (and if no Serbian players come along). I think they are already dwindling. :tape:

So if that is the likely trend why the Williams fan base is being sigled out as an exception if this likely to happen.:confused: They are often described as only Williams fans and not tennis fans in general therefore I would like to know the difference.

Apoleb
Jul 19th, 2009, 10:07 PM
Martina's achievements are irrelevant to the Sisters because they are not competing with her in anyway. The Sisters story and achievements are independent of everyone else.

Right. Just like Sampras' former record of 14 GS was irrelevant to Federer's legacy and status as possibly the greatest ever. Believe it or not, when people will look at tennis history, they will undoubtedly compare achievements (albeit taking in consideration circumstances). Why do you think people still mention Nav's 9 wins, Steffi's golden slam or Laver's GS? Your idea that WS somehow are in a bubble and their legacy won't have anything to do with past achievements of players (or that they don't provide any motivation for the WS) is delusional, but if it helps you in believing in the ultimate superiority of the WS over anyone else, then so be it.

Denise4925
Jul 19th, 2009, 10:13 PM
Right. Just like Sampras' former record of 14 GS was irrelevant to Federer's legacy and status as possibly the greatest ever. Believe it or not, when people will look at tennis history, they will undoubtedly compare achievements (albeit taking in consideration circumstances). Why do you think people still mention Nav's 9 wins, Steffi's golden slam or Laver's GS? Your idea that WS somehow are in a bubble and their legacy won't have anything to do with past achievements of players is delusional, but if it helps you in believing in the ultimate superiority of the WS over anyone else, then so be it.

Who said anything about the WS being ultimately superior?? :confused: All that has been said in this thread is that the WS are not playing to achieve more recordwise than Steffi, Nav, etc.

Also, if Federer had never won 15 or more GS, would it diminish his own legacy? Does Federer's 15 diminish Sampras legacy or Agassi's or Bork's or Laver's? Does Steffi's GS totals diminish Martina's or BJK or Court or Lenglen or Austin or Evert, etc.? No. They have their own history of the sport and their own legacies that are not tarnished or diminished because they did not achieve the amount of GS's that Steffi did. As well with the WS.

Vlover
Jul 19th, 2009, 10:18 PM
Right. Just like Sampras' former record of 14 GS was irrelevant to Federer's legacy and status as possibly the greatest ever. Believe it or not, when people will look at tennis history, they will undoubtedly compare achievements (albeit taking in consideration circumstances). Why do you think people still mention Nav's 9 wins, Steffi's golden slam or Laver's GS? Your idea that WS somehow are in a bubble and their legacy won't have anything to do with past achievements of players is delusional, but if it helps you in believing in the ultimate superiority of the WS over anyone else, then so be it.
Personally I'm not caught up in GOAT and superiority gibberish because I just don't see how anyone can objectively judge who is better if they didn't play against each other for any lenghth of time. I judge the Sisters with who they played against not the record of someone else. Of course the achievments of others will be mentioned but that in no way diminished what the Sisters have accomplished.

Steffica Greles
Jul 19th, 2009, 10:19 PM
I don't get the problem. Martina has many times said how great the Williams sisters are; when she's expressed disappointment in them it has been because they have been wasting opportunities to go some way to matching her records. She has encouraged them to focus on their careers.

Could it be that Williams fans are far more threatened by comments from Martina (with her insurmountable record) than the reverse, as they suggest? I think that's the real issue here.

Knizzle
Jul 19th, 2009, 10:21 PM
Right. Just like Sampras' former record of 14 GS was irrelevant to Federer's legacy and status as possibly the greatest ever. Believe it or not, when people will look at tennis history, they will undoubtedly compare achievements (albeit taking in consideration circumstances). Why do you think people still mention Nav's 9 wins, Steffi's golden slam or Laver's GS? Your idea that WS somehow are in a bubble and their legacy won't have anything to do with past achievements of players (or that they don't provide any motivation for the WS) is delusional, but if it helps you in believing in the ultimate superiority of the WS over anyone else, then so be it.Regardless if Fed surpassed Pete in slam titles, I saw his level of play hit a HIGHER mark than Pete ever did. I think even Pete himself knows that. That's how I feel about the sisters, especially Serena.

Denise4925
Jul 19th, 2009, 10:23 PM
I don't get the problem. Martina has many times said how great the Williams sisters are; when she's expressed disappointment in them it has been because they have been wasting opportunities to go some way to matching her records. She has encouraged them to focus on their careers.

Could it be that Williams fans are far more threatened by comments from Martina (with her insurmountable record) than the reverse, as they suggest? I think that's the real issue here.

You're perfectly free to think what you want. :shrug: Although I would argue that the posts here say otherwise. Therefore, there's no point in debating you because you already have your mind made up about the WS fans.

Knizzle
Jul 19th, 2009, 10:24 PM
I don't get the problem. Martina has many times said how great the Williams sisters are; when she's expressed disappointment in them it has been because they have been wasting opportunities to go some way to matching her records. She has encouraged them to focus on their careers.

Could it be that Williams fans are far more threatened by comments from Martina (with her insurmountable record) than the reverse, as they suggest? I think that's the real issue here.No because I don't truly measure the sisters impact by the number of major titles that players won previous to their era. Female players these days have great commitment to the physical aspect of the game so it's hard to win 18+ majors like the old days when only a few had that type of commitment.

Steffica Greles
Jul 19th, 2009, 10:28 PM
Personally I'm not caught up in GOAT and superiority gibberish because I just don't see how anyone can objectively judge who is better if they didn't play against each other for any lenghth of time. I judge the Sisters with who they played against not the record of someone else. Of course the achievments of others will be mentioned but that in no way diminished what the Sisters have accomplished.

Venus and Serena will be prominent in any history book of tennis. Chapters will be devoted to their brilliance.

But, tennis historians will speculate as to how many they could have won had they not stood in each other's way, or if Serena had applied herself more.

And neither will have anything close to the numbers required to make substantial claims to being the greatest ever. All the pictures of Serena's girth won't help either, because it will make people think the competition was poor if she could win with undefined legs, large hips and breasts which no track athlete could carry. It just won't look good. That's the reality. So I don't think people will be convinced that they played in 'more competitive times', referencing world no.1 Safina's 6-1 6-0 loss to Venus at Wimbledon as added strength.

However, videos of their peak matches will always be around, and for that reason people will always rate them as among the greats.

Apoleb
Jul 19th, 2009, 10:29 PM
No because I don't truly measure the sisters impact by the number of major titles that players won previous to their era. Female players these days have great commitment to the physical aspect of the game so it's hard to win 18+ majors like the old days when only a few had that type of commitment.

Funny, but what makes you think that the competition of Graf or Navratilova (Chris Evert, Graf and Seles in the latter's case!) was any less than that provided by Demented and Shitlana? (sorry I forgot the world's number 1: Dinara Safina, and the former world number 1, Jelena Jankovic :lol: )

Funny, but that argument would've worked better in 1999-2003 when the WS had serious tough competition (Steffi, Lindsay, Jennifer, Kim/Justine, Martina) and were winning as much and even more than now.

Steffica Greles
Jul 19th, 2009, 10:31 PM
No because I don't truly measure the sisters impact by the number of major titles that players won previous to their era. Female players these days have great commitment to the physical aspect of the game so it's hard to win 18+ majors like the old days when only a few had that type of commitment.

Read that in a magazine written by Tracy Austin did ya? ;)

The amount of elephant women on the court these days shoots your argument to pieces. In the early 1990s, I don't remember so many fat players in the top 50, or even the top 20.

Knizzle
Jul 19th, 2009, 10:33 PM
Funny, but what makes you think that the competition of Graf or Navratilova (Chris Evert, Graf and Seles in the latter's case!) was any less than that provided by Demented and Shitlana?

Funny, but that argument would've worked better in 1999-2003 when the WS had serious tough competition (Steffi, Lindsay, Jennifer, Kim/Justine, Martina) and were winning as much and even more than now.In her time, Nav's fitness and physicality was unrivaled until Evert figured out she had to work harder and then Graf came along and then Seles' aggressive style of play came along. The sisters had more players who could hang with them physically.

Vlover
Jul 19th, 2009, 10:33 PM
Could it be that Williams fans are far more threatened by comments from Martina (with her insurmountable record) than the reverse, as they suggest? I think that's the real issue here.
The satisfaction of knowing that they are better than their contemporaries is good enough me. That has always been their objective to be better than who they are actually competing against not the record of others.

Denise4925
Jul 19th, 2009, 10:42 PM
Venus and Serena will be prominent in any history book of tennis. Chapters will be devoted to their brilliance.

But, tennis historians will speculate as to how many they could have won had they not stood in each other's way, or if Serena had applied herself more.

And neither will have anything close to the numbers required to make substantial claims to being the greatest ever. All the pictures of Serena's girth won't help either, because it will make people think the competition was poor if she could win with undefined legs, large hips and breasts which no track athlete could carry. It just won't look good. That's the reality. So I don't think people will be convinced that they played in 'more competitive times', referencing world no.1 Safina's 6-1 6-0 loss to Venus at Wimbledon as added strength.

However, videos of their peak matches will always be around, and for that reason people will always rate them as among the greats.

Read that in a magazine written by Tracy Austin did ya? ;)

The amount of elephant women on the court these days shoots your argument to pieces. In the early 1990s, I don't remember so many fat players in the top 50, or even the top 20.

What tennis historians have you read and what work? I'd just like to get an idea of how tennis historians think. Since you're familiar, I'd just like to know the references from which you draw your conclusions on what they will speculate on. And why would they need to speculate, when there is a visual evidence of every match they've ever played, computer data of all the news of their careers and their personal lives, etc. It's not like we live in biblical times. Why would historians have to speculate? They can see for themselves.

Do you see this as yet another opportunity to call Serena fat and degrade her body? Arguments like this are just so disengenuous.

Knizzle
Jul 19th, 2009, 10:50 PM
Venus and Serena will be prominent in any history book of tennis. Chapters will be devoted to their brilliance.

But, tennis historians will speculate as to how many they could have won had they not stood in each other's way, or if Serena had applied herself more.

And neither will have anything close to the numbers required to make substantial claims to being the greatest ever. All the pictures of Serena's girth won't help either, because it will make people think the competition was poor if she could win with undefined legs, large hips and breasts which no track athlete could carry. It just won't look good. That's the reality. So I don't think people will be convinced that they played in 'more competitive times', referencing world no.1 Safina's 6-1 6-0 loss to Venus at Wimbledon as added strength.

However, videos of their peak matches will always be around, and for that reason people will always rate them as among the greats.When did she ever have undefined legs?? And large hips and breasts? Is she supposed to cease being a woman to play tennis? Is she supposed to get a breast reduction to play tennis? Serena's highest level of play has not dropped. She lost a bit of movement yes, but IMO her serve is better than it's ever been and her groundies are more reliable than they've ever been.

Denise4925
Jul 19th, 2009, 10:50 PM
When did she ever have undefined legs?? And large hips and breasts? Is she supposed to cease being a woman to play tennis? Is she supposed to get a breast reduction to play tennis? Serena's highest level of play has not dropped. She lost a bit of movement yes, but IMO her serve is better than it's ever been and her groundies are more reliable than they've ever been.

Knizzle, why are you even entertaining that :bs:?

Knizzle
Jul 19th, 2009, 10:50 PM
Read that in a magazine written by Tracy Austin did ya? ;)

The amount of elephant women on the court these days shoots your argument to pieces. In the early 1990s, I don't remember so many fat players in the top 50, or even the top 20.What elephant women are in the top 20 now?

Apoleb
Jul 19th, 2009, 10:53 PM
In her time, Nav's fitness and physicality was unrivaled until Evert figured out she had to work harder and then Graf came along and then Seles' aggressive style of play came along. The sisters had more players who could hang with them physically.

So? That's only testament to Navratilova's and Graf's amazing and unrivaled physical endurance. Nav was still winning GS matches in her 40s/50s against current players. Graf has an out of this world physique and athletecism, and never ever looked slightly off shape or hell, even tired and breathless, and won her way in GS with injuries everywhere. I actually think that what makes the difference between Navratilova's 160+ titles, Graf's 22 single GS and Serena's and Venus' respective achievements, along with dedication. It's not primarily about competition.

azinna
Jul 19th, 2009, 11:19 PM
I sort of love the mind reading that goes on on this forum. She might just be a very opinionated woman who isn't head over feet over the WS (which is certainly a possibility for any tennis fan).... The bottom point is: we don't know her. I wish we can skip the psychobabble....There's certainly tons of insecurity from the WS fans part, or else they wouldn't go crazy every time she opens her mouth....

I find it noteworthy that you start your post with a criticism of mind reading players one doesn't know....and end it by mind reading a group of people you don't really know. Then follow it up by refusing to take their responses at face value. Using the word "insecurity" really isn't a good way to "skip the psychobabble" you think you're above using. You interpret. We all do. I admit it when I do so (with the necessary qualifications). I wish you would.

You can certainly say you don't read her in that way, because of this or that reason. And, of course, I've read enough of your posts to know that you don't always take a player's (or public figure's) words at face value. When next we get to a post where that's occurring, it'd be nice to know why you do choose to read beyond the surface at that moment.

Apoleb
Jul 19th, 2009, 11:30 PM
I find it noteworthy that you start your post with a criticism of mind reading players one doesn't know....and end it by mind reading a group of people you don't really know. Then follow it up by refusing to take their responses at face value. Using the word "insecurity" really isn't a good way to "skip the psychobabble" you think you're above using. You interpret. We all do. I admit it when I do so (with the necessary qualifications). I wish you would.

You can certainly say you don't read her in that way, because of this or that reason. And, of course, I've read enough of your posts to know that you don't always take a player's words at face value. When next we get to a post where that's occurring, it'd be nice to know why you do choose to read beyond the surface at that moment.

The difference is that I provided a very reasonable alternative for explaining Martina's "behavior" hence why I said we ultimately don't know her and instead we should skip the psychobabble and the personal attacks especially when they're clearly unwarranted (like in this thread), and hamper discussing some very interesting points she sometimes makes (last time the thread about her opinion about the #1 ranking and the importance of GS was closed because of an invasion of rabid fans!)

I don't think one could provide a reasonable alternative to the insecurity argument when explaining such completely ridiculous arguments as "records don't matter" or the unjustified reactions to every word Martina says when, like I said, it's clearly unwarranted in this case (she was most likely asked a question. And according to those same fans, she said the "obvious"). If you have any rational alternative explanation, I'm all ears. :)

azinna
Jul 19th, 2009, 11:47 PM
I don't think one could provide a reasonable alternative to the insecurity argument when explaining such completely ridiculous arguments as "records don't matter" .... If you have any rational alternative explanation, I'm all ears. :)

Apoleb, Martina has been fixated on records for a very long time. At least from the mid-1980s. She (like Sampras) admitted this publicly, went to great lengths to achieve them and took very public pride in having done so. She has taken this on as a way to measure her place in history, and perhaps even herself against other greats.

However, many (not all) WS fans take their cue from the sisters themselves on this issue: for them, records (which tend to be broken, as Pete discovered...or overly debated as Court has found out) are not a reason for playing tennis or a measure of their influence in the game. The Williams sisters are not the first in tennis to hold this stance publicly. Steffi Graf made this clear to reporters toward the end of her career. Hence her decision to stop at 22 slams.

As a fan of Serena, Steffi and Venus, I don't care for another great publicly playing the how-many-slams-did-you-win game. Much prefer Laver's and Steffi's style, even Borg's, when they get asked such questions by reporters. Me calling Martina on this has nothing (I know) to do with insecurity. It feels quite the opposite, actually. Which I guess is my point about Martina.

Apoleb
Jul 19th, 2009, 11:56 PM
Apoleb, Martina has been fixated on records for a very long time. At least from the mid-1980s. She (like Sampras) has admitted this. She has taken this on as a way to measure her place in history, and perhaps even herself against other greats.

However, many (not all) WS fans take their cue from the sisters themselves on this issue: records (which tend to be broken, as Pete discovered) are not a reason for playing or a measure of their influence in the game. The Williams sisters are not the first in tennis to hold this stance publicly. Steffi Graf made this clear to reporters toward the end of her career. Hence her decision to stop at 22 slams. As a fan of Serena, Steffi and Venus, I don't care for another great publicly playing the how-many-slams-did-you-win game. Much prefer Laver's and Steffi's style, even Borg's, when they get asked such questions by reporters. Me calling Martina on this has nothing ( I know) to do with insecurity.

:lol: Steffi Graf said that if she wins Wimbledon in 99, she will come back to Wimby only to equal Martina's record. So yeah, love the irony in this case.

The issue of the importance of records isn't being used as a reference to judge Martina. But to assume that it won't have any effect on Serena's and Venus' legacy. I'm sorry, but it's just absurd. Serena already mentioned BJK 12 GS (her next goal). And if no player had won more than 10 slams, do you think she'd be just as determined to win more? Regardless, this isn't about what you, Serena or Venus think. It's about their legacy and how the world and history will look at it. And like I said, it's ridiculous and absurd to claim that the quantity of achievement and the records they will achieve are irrelevant for that.

20 or whatever years for now, Martina's record will always stand as a parameter for others to break. Just like Sampras' 14 slams were for Federer.

azinna
Jul 20th, 2009, 12:17 AM
:lol: Steffi Graf said that if she wins Wimbledon in 99, she will come back to Wimby only to equal Martina's record. So yeah, love the irony in this case.

I was at Wimbledon that year, followed Steffi very closely. What you've said above is rubbish, a misreading of her words at best. Here is a report of that pre-final interview:

Link: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4156/is_19990704/ai_n13941894/
Graf now has the chance to move to within one title of Martina Navratilova's Wimbledon record and refused to say if she would be back next year if she won tomorrow, admitting only that it would be "tempting".She repeatedly said the records you seem so concerned about where not a central issue for her. Again, in June of 1999:

Link: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4156/is_19990704/ai_n13941894/
Graf has never been a conscious amasser of honours. "I don't wake up every day and think about which tournaments I won and which titles I hold," she said. "It's something I don't care about." Naturally, she is aware of the major statistics - 22 Grand Slams, 107 titles, more than 1,000 singles matches since her professional debut in October, 1982. Even the fact that, rather like Manchester United in Barcelona, a late flourish could carry her to glory and eclipse Margaret Court's mark of 24 Grand Slams, does not enthuse her. If it happens, so be it. Wimbledon, here and now, is what she hungers for.I think the difference between wanting to win majors and wanting to attain records is hard for certain folks to understand. That's why you get several saying it's "absurd" to say records aren't a central reason for playing the game and that responding from that point of view suggests a level of "insecurity." And it matters what she or Venus or others think, since you're mind reading a good number of people.

Apoleb
Jul 20th, 2009, 12:37 AM
I think the difference between wanting to win majors and wanting to attain records is hard for certain folks to understand. That's why you get several saying it's "absurd" to say records aren't a reason for playing and that responding from that point of view suggests a level of "insecurity."

Actually what seems hard to understand is the conceptual difference between what "you" think and what you think your favorites think, and what history and the public will judge. Some players don't even care about legacy, you know. I guess nice try at (hopefully intentionally) straying away from the point. If you think Serena's legacy (defined as how tennis public and tennis historians will look at Serena's achievements x years from now) would be identical with 10 GS wins as it is with 18, then be free to do that. I can find better things to do with my time than convince you of that.

I was at Wimbledon that year, followed Steffi very closely. What you've said above is rubbish, a misreading of her words at best. Here is a report of that pre-final interview:

She already admits that it's "tempting" to come back only to equal Martina's record, without ruling out a come back. It certainly speaks about the importance of Nav's 9 Wimbledons in her mind.

She repeatedly said the records you seem so concerned about where not an issue for her. Again, in June of 1999:

I never said she cared about elevating her 22 GS number (already huge. making a point that this proves she doesn't care about numbers is kinda hilarious). I made a point about her wanting to go back to wimbledon to equal Martina's record. I don't have time to dig articles and videos from 99. But the one you picked up serves my point anyway.

BTW, I reread your post to find this gem:

That's why you get several saying it's "absurd" to say records aren't a central reason for playing the game

Really? I think it's absurd that chasing records isn't a central reason for playing the game? :lol:

new-york
Jul 20th, 2009, 12:53 AM
No wonder that Venus cannot appreciate Martinas' style...since she plays a whole different game than Martina.
Martina played a beautiful serve-and-volleys-game while Venus does ugly ball-bashing with poor technique.

some people manage to respect differences.

meet them. :D

new-york
Jul 20th, 2009, 01:02 AM
Records are here to be broken, whether you are playing for that or not is another question.

Steffi and Martina set the bar high by winning a lot, and even if generations pass and players change, numbers remain.

Fedebangs is the GOAT now and although Sampras won't and shouldn't be less respected, there's someone at the top of the list who isn't him anymore.

It doesn't really matter WHY you are playing to people who will make the count when the tennis world comes to an end.

Numbers will matter.

But, so what.
So nothing.

Venus and Serena certainly HAVE TO win a lot from now on to catch up, Martina's right.

I just hope they enjoy their tennis until they retire and we'll see where they stand at that moment.
I'll be standing behing them, that's for sure. :inlove:

Martina's insecurities, if there are any, are her business.
Fact is, some records in the women's game look like they won't be surpassed for a while.

azinna
Jul 20th, 2009, 01:09 AM
Apoleb, let me make this clear: of course there are historians who judge players' legacies by their records. The issue is how important records are to a given fan, historian or player when he or she judges a player's legacy. It is a much more fluid conversation (even debate) than you suggest. That's what several of these posts have been about. After a certain number, certain players and fans feel secure. And they know that breaking a given record really doesn't do that much for them. Understanding this is key to understanding why several posters have taken issue with your comments.

....I made a point about her wanting to go back to wimbledon to equal Martina's record. I don't have time to dig articles and videos from 99....

It wasn't in your interest to support your assertions about Steffi's intentions. You were willfully misreading and misreporting them. Steffi did not say that, if she won Wimbledon, she would return to equal Martina's record. She recognized that it would be tempting. Just as getting 24 slams would be. But she has made decisions about playing on using different criteria.

Apoleb
Jul 20th, 2009, 01:24 AM
Apoleb, let me make this clear: of course there are historians who judge players' legacies by their records. The issue is how important records are to a given fan, historian or player when he or she judges a player's legacy. It is a much more fluid conversation (even debate) than you suggest. That's what several of these posts have been about. After a certain number, certain players and fans feel secure. And they know that breaking a given record really doesn't do that much for them. Understanding this is key to understanding why several posters have taken issue with your comments.

This is like beating a dead horse. Numbers are NOT irrelevant from a legacy point of view. This is what has been stated by several WS fans (not about their personal satisfaction. but their legacy) and this is what I took issue with and saw it as a clear symptom of insecurity. And I'm not talking what's relevant for the personal satisfaction of a player or his/her fans , but for his legacy and how he/she will be looked at 10, 20 years from now by the tennis public. Numbers had certainly a lot to do with how historians judge Steffi, Martina and Chris. 20 years from now, Serena with 9 GS won't be looked at the same with 18, even if she was the most accomplished player of her generation. Comparison to other accomplished players will undoubtedly get raised and stats will be compared. Venus' 5 Wimby titles will be compared to Nav's 9 in a discussion of Wimbledon greats and Venus with 9 Wimby titles would be looked at with greater admiration than one with 5.

I'll just agree to disagree.

Agreed with new york though.

Donny
Jul 20th, 2009, 01:43 AM
Venus and Serena will be prominent in any history book of tennis. Chapters will be devoted to their brilliance.

But, tennis historians will speculate as to how many they could have won had they not stood in each other's way, or if Serena had applied herself more.

And neither will have anything close to the numbers required to make substantial claims to being the greatest ever. All the pictures of Serena's girth won't help either, because it will make people think the competition was poor if she could win with undefined legs, large hips and breasts which no track athlete could carry. It just won't look good. That's the reality. So I don't think people will be convinced that they played in 'more competitive times', referencing world no.1 Safina's 6-1 6-0 loss to Venus at Wimbledon as added strength.

However, videos of their peak matches will always be around, and for that reason people will always rate them as among the greats.

Or maybe they'll look back at Graf and wonder exactly such small, weak women managed to win grand slams.

azinna
Jul 20th, 2009, 02:12 AM
This is like beating a dead horse. Numbers are NOT irrelevant from a legacy point of view. This is what has been stated by several WS fans (not about their personal satisfaction. but their legacy) and this is what I took issue with and saw it as a clear symptom of insecurity. And I'm not talking what's relevant for the personal satisfaction of a player or his/her fans , but for his legacy and how he/she will be looked at 10, 20 years from now by the tennis public.....

I agree that "Numbers are NOT irrelevant" when you are judging a particular kind of "legacy" -- basically GOAT or "best grass-court player" and other debates without end. They are much less relevant when discussing "legacy" as it's usually understood -- as in influence and historical impact, changes in the way the game is played, trained for, funded and perceived, changes also in who play the game and how they express themselves on and off the court -- what most of the posters disagreeing with you seemed to mean when using the word.

Anyway, even when you limit "legacy" to numbers used to debate who's the best overall or best on that surface, Records are set in too many different contexts and broken too frequently to be deciders. That's why many tennis historians consider Laver to be the equal of Sampras and Federer, if not greater. In fact, it's the job of tennis historians to fill in the context for us and not simply rely on records we can read and cite ourselves.

More to the point of the thread, Venus does not need to reach 9 Wimbledons to start being considered the "greatest grass-court player." Just as Graf didn't. And I'd say neither player's legacy is defined by that debatable title.

Apoleb
Jul 20th, 2009, 02:19 AM
Or maybe they'll look back at Graf and wonder exactly such small, weak women managed to win grand slams.

Or how players with mediocre movement managed to win grand slams. ;)

And they will have to justify Henin's GS record too, because she was much smaller and weaker than Graf.

Donny
Jul 20th, 2009, 02:28 AM
Or how players with mediocre movement managed to win grand slams. ;)

And they will have to justify Henin's GS record too, because she was much smaller and weaker than Graf.


I'm sure we could ask Seles for an explanation.

Apoleb
Jul 20th, 2009, 02:29 AM
I agree that "Numbers are NOT irrelevant" when you are judging a particular kind of legacy (though not necessarily other kinds, like influence and historical impact, what folks really think about when they say "legacy").

But even when you limit legacy to deciding who's the best (basically GOAT or "best grass-court player" and other debates without end), Records are set in too many different contexts and broken too frequently to be deciders. For example, many tennis historians consider Laver to be the equal of Sampras and Federer, if not greater. Same with Navratilova over Court, Graf over Court, and Graf over Navratilova (without the 9 Wimbledons, mind you). In fact, it's the job of tennis historians to fill in the context for us and not simply rely on records we can read ourselves.

More to the point of the thread, Venus does not need to reach 9 Wimbledons to start being considered the "greatest grass-court player." Just like Graf didn't.

Agreed. If you go back, I did mention that numbers matter within circumstances. And if you also go back, some posters were out rightly dismissing them as irrelevant. One thing I feel for sure: if Serena stays at 11, she would rarely be included in the same league as Graf as Navratilova. And I don't think Venus will be included at 5, in the same league of Navratilova. And the reason I feel is the large difference in numbers.

Apoleb
Jul 20th, 2009, 02:37 AM
I'm sure we could ask Seles for an explanation.

Seles was a decent mover in the early 90s and had very good footwork, especially given she was double handed.

I think they will just look at Sveta, Jelena's and Elena's records against Justine, and at Venus' record outside Wimbledon.

Miranda
Jul 20th, 2009, 02:44 AM
I dont think Venus is chasing Martina s records and doesnt care much about her,she hardly mentions her in any presser.The former player she idolizes is Billie and I am sure she looks up to her and would want to emulate her.Venus has made her own records that other players would want to achieve like 3 Olympic gold medals,defending 2 different grand slams back to back,winning Wimbledon singles and doubles in the same year.These are the stats for your info:p

I know the stats of Venus, thank you though, i am not saying Venus is not a great champion, she is, but just that, Martina also has her right to speak, and her words are not offensive, so don't understand the big reaction of some posters here:wavey:

Steffica Greles
Jul 20th, 2009, 02:47 AM
Or maybe they'll look back at Graf and wonder exactly such small, weak women managed to win grand slams.

Graf weak and small? She was one of the physically strongest women there have ever been. 5'9 was a conservative estimate of her height, probably taken when she was 17.

I pity people with such poor knowledge of the game because it disadvantages them in debates.

Apoleb
Jul 20th, 2009, 02:50 AM
Graf weak and small? She was one of the physically strongest women there have ever been. 5'9 was a conservative estimate of her height, probably taken when she was 17.

I pity people with such poor knowledge of the game because it disadvantages them in debates.

I think Graf's wrists were incredible. She would get back a deep ball just from a flick of them.

Steffica Greles
Jul 20th, 2009, 02:50 AM
I'm sure we could ask Seles for an explanation.

Eight slams by the age of 19 years and 2 months speaks for itself. The main question people will ask is how many more the stabbing prevented her from winning, as this very board has shown over the last decade.

Donny
Jul 20th, 2009, 02:52 AM
Graf weak and small? She was one of the physically strongest women there have ever been. 5'9 was a conservative estimate of her height, probably taken when she was 17.

I pity people with such poor knowledge of the game because it disadvantages them in debates.

I was being sarcastic in response to a nonsensical post.

Being "toned" is not an indicator of physical skill. If it were, your average defensive linebacker would be considered unathletic. Shaq would be considered unathletic.

Serena, despite not being in good a shape as she has been, is still pretty fast, has good stamina, and is very strong phsyically-- substantially stronger than Graf ever was, I'd argue.

The idea of people looking back at tapes checking for cellulite is a pipe dream.

Donny
Jul 20th, 2009, 02:53 AM
Eight slams by the age of 19 years and 2 months speaks for itself. The main question people will ask is how many more the stabbing prevented her from winning, as this very board has shown over the last decade.

How many did they prevent her from winning? From what I've read she healed from the stab wound in a few months.

Steffica Greles
Jul 20th, 2009, 02:56 AM
I think Graf's wrists were incredible. She would get back a deep ball just from a flick of them.

Exactly. And that was even after wrist problems! Also, her famous arm speed when hitting through the ball came from physical strength.

She was just the perfect athlete. She could have done ballet...she ran the olympic qualifying time without training in track athletics...was always supremely fit, never a pound overweight...breathtaking.

Steffica Greles
Jul 20th, 2009, 03:00 AM
How many did they prevent her from winning? From what I've read she healed from the stab wound in a few months.

It's not about what I think, or you think. Historians will conclude that Seles missed out on at the very least 3 slams, maybe as many as 10 had she not been stabbed - given her record up until then. They can't not, purely based on the evidence.

Steffica Greles
Jul 20th, 2009, 03:01 AM
The idea of people looking back at tapes checking for cellulite is a pipe dream.

No, but the snaps are never kind :lol:

Let's hope they show Serena of 1999-2004 in images, how I'd like to remember her. Not the fat, ungainly elephant now flailing all about the court, dragging herself back and forth by virtue of her unparalleled strength.

It's like watching those muscle men towing cars.

azinna
Jul 20th, 2009, 03:16 AM
...was always supremely fit, never a pound overweight...breathtaking.

You know I love Steffi and admire her dedication to the sport while a player....but when comparing her to Serena I think we have to give some room to different body types. Steffi, like Kournikova, is one of those women who lose weight when they don't train. It was really hard to tell when she wasn't fit, but you could if you followed her closely. Slo-mo in her '98 Eastbourne match against Anna showed some wiggle in the thighs; or a rash of errors in the 3rd set would let you know she was struggling. Everyone praised how she looked during her exibition against Kim.....but I knew she was far from fit, even if she wasn't a pound overweight.

Basically, Serena and Steffi present two different definitions of athlete. To get to their optimal shape they have to work in different directions. Serena is not far from her Apr-May '08 definition, fitness and movement; I'd put that Serena (leave 2002-03 alone) against the sport's great athletes.

Donny
Jul 20th, 2009, 03:17 AM
No, but the snaps are never kind :lol:

Let's hope they show Serena of 1999-2004 in images, how I'd like to remember her. Not the fat, ungainly elephant now flailing all about the court, dragging herself back and forth by virtue of her unparalleled strength.

It's like watching those muscle men towing cars.

Depends on what you look for in an athlete.

http://sports.popcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/jason-peters-traded-to-eagles.jpg

The guy on the left is one of the best professional athletes on earth. Is his lack of definition a knock on him? Or does his skill speak for itself.

Maybe one day, Serena, rather than Graf, will be the prototype for tennis players. Back in the 40's, they used to say SHORT basketball players made the best ballers, because they were faster and had better balance. We all know how that turned out.

Steffica Greles
Jul 20th, 2009, 03:23 AM
Then God help women's tennis. We already have enough Pigovas and Serena Williams. Dare I say it, you might be right.

Roddick was chunky, but he's lost weight and is playing arguably his best ever tennis. So it's not the same in the men's game. And women who can move and don't make the earth quake when they waddle across the court will always be at an advantage.

I just have a feeling -- and this is where you might be on to something -- that coaches are telling their charges to eat diets which built up their body mass, but the result is that when they don't have the time to workout intensively, like when they're on the road, they become porkers. Maybe that's what's happening.

Although, in Serena's case I think she's delusional about her work rate. I think many players, with lesser ability and natural gifts, work twice as hard. It says a lot for Serena's ability, but doesn't really look good as an advertisement for women's tennis when the de facto number one is not in her best ever shape (in your words).

Knizzle
Jul 20th, 2009, 06:22 AM
Steffica Greles, say what u want but the "overweight" Serena that showed up in the Wimbledon final would have beaten Graf rather comfortably at any time in Graf's career.

Apoleb
Jul 20th, 2009, 09:48 AM
Picking and chosing Serena's is a bit inane. I'd put the Serena of 1999-2009 against the Steffi of 1989-1999. When it comes to physical fitness and "strength", Serena will match or maybe outdo Graf a few seasons, but she will get surpassed for most of that. Why do people dismiss physical endurance in a discussion of fitness is beyond me. Some people have the genes and the right environment to stay in a top shape for a longer time. Some don't. And that's why I also happen to think Serena can't replicate a 2002 season by winning more titles and being more consistent, despite her GS wins.

Matt01
Jul 20th, 2009, 11:02 AM
some people manage to respect differences. :D


:confused:

Sam L
Jul 20th, 2009, 11:17 AM
"Being thin" is not equal to "being fit".

Also, endurance in tennis is absolutely a different concept to endurance in general terms.

No tennis player requires endurance like a middle or long distance runner. Having done both, it's just a whole different ball game.

Graf would most definitely make a better distance runner.

If I had to pick a female tennis player's body to play tennis in between Graf and Serena Williams. I'd pick Serena Williams any day.

AcesHigh
Jul 20th, 2009, 11:20 AM
If I had to pick a female tennis player's body to play tennis in between Graf and Serena Williams. I'd pick Serena Williams any day.

:spit:

bandabou
Jul 20th, 2009, 11:28 AM
Steffica Greles..you might really be on something. Serena really could stand to be fitter and lose some weight.

But if what you say is true: Being fat and out of a shape is the major reason for a player to stop winning big, then maybe the Selestials should just cut the crap and say it aloud: The stabbing wasn't really the reason that Seles won only one major after '93..but rather that Seles was fat and out of a shape and that's why she couldn't cope with a Graf who was at her peak fitness.

Until the Selestials can say that aloud, then I gues they should just leave Serena alone ( fat or not fat, she's still winning afterall...)

bandabou
Jul 20th, 2009, 11:31 AM
Eight slams by the age of 19 years and 2 months speaks for itself. The main question people will ask is how many more the stabbing prevented her from winning, as this very board has shown over the last decade.

Not really...we already found the answer: Seles got fat and out of shape. That's why she stopped winning majors.

bandabou
Jul 20th, 2009, 11:32 AM
It's not about what I think, or you think. Historians will conclude that Seles missed out on at the very least 3 slams, maybe as many as 10 had she not been stabbed - given her record up until then. They can't not, purely based on the evidence.

Only problem..she got FAT!

AcesHigh
Jul 20th, 2009, 11:33 AM
Btw, it's ridiculous to call Serena fat. Steffica, just because you repeatedly say it, does not mean it's true. That's just the way Serena's body is. Although she's had fitness issues since 2004, Serena has gotten herself in pretty good shape for 2009. I still question her fitness b/c she can never seem to hold it together for a calendar year, but I think this is the best she's going to get for now. Luckily, you don't need much in today's game to come out on top.

Sam L
Jul 20th, 2009, 11:38 AM
:spit:

Well I play tennis, I run and I do weights also. That's just my personal opinion.

Luckily, you don't need much in today's game to come out on top.

:spit:

Armchair critic.

AcesHigh
Jul 20th, 2009, 11:43 AM
Well I play tennis, I run and I do weights also. That's just my personal opinion.



:spit:

Armchair critic.

And what are you? NOT an armchair critic? You don't need much in today's game.. just look at the last few slams where mediocrity ruled. And if you haven't noticed, Safina is #1. That says enough right there.

And btw, I would never take Serena's body, with all that extra weight over Graf's who moved like a gazelle, had great footwork and moved a million times better than Serena. For all Serena's improvements, she still plods around the court a heck of a lot. Her change of direction is nowhere near where it used to be, but like I said.. in recent times, it doesnt take much to get ahead compared to previous years.

Sam L
Jul 20th, 2009, 11:51 AM
And what are you? NOT an armchair critic? You don't need much in today's game.. just look at the last few slams where mediocrity ruled. And if you haven't noticed, Safina is #1. That says enough right there.

And btw, I would never take Serena's body, with all that extra weight over Graf's who moved like a gazelle, had great footwork and moved a million times better than Serena. For all Serena's improvements, she still plods around the court a heck of a lot. Her change of direction is nowhere near where it used to be, but like I said.. in recent times, it doesnt take much to get ahead compared to previous years.

Well the difference is I'm not sitting here and criticizing those achieving in the game right now because I can only imagine how hard it would be.

Safina is No. 1. So what? We all know why she's No. 1. That's hardly an argument for anything.

Mediocrity in terms of what? Because your favourite didn't win? Because you didn't get the 3-set final you wanted?

All you've tried to do is diminish the achievements of those winning right now without any facts or evidence.

The Dawntreader
Jul 20th, 2009, 11:52 AM
If I had to pick a female tennis player's body to play tennis in between Graf and Serena Williams. I'd pick Serena Williams any day.

Steffi Graf was the best athlete EVER in tennis. I'd even put her in a different class to some of the ATP athletes over the years.

She had the most impeccable footwork. Even Serena at her juggernaut best doesn't compare.

jade001
Jul 20th, 2009, 11:58 AM
Steffi is so overrated.:rolleyes:

bandabou
Jul 20th, 2009, 12:08 PM
Luckily, you don't need much in today's game to come out on top.

Here we go again. Today's game? What's that supposed to mean? When Juju was kinda winning, not really..she was clay-queen with the odd final at the Open or Oz open here and there, the field was good...Juju was great champ yada yada.

Yet now that it's Serema who's winning, it's become it doesn't take too much??? If it was that easy...why couldn't Juju win at Wimbledon?

Matt01
Jul 20th, 2009, 12:16 PM
Steffi is so overrated.:rolleyes:


Serena even more :tape:

jade001
Jul 20th, 2009, 12:19 PM
Here we go again. Today's game? What's that supposed to mean? When Juju was kinda winning, not really..she was clay-queen with the odd final at the Open or Oz open here and there, the field was good...Juju was great champ yada yada.

Yet now that it's Serema who's winning, it's become it doesn't take too much??? If it was that easy...why couldn't Juju win at Wimbledon?

Noone ever said Serena isn't a great champion, but right now she is winning with no BIG competition, that's it. Who did she beat on her way to win US, OZ, and Winbledon, a nervous Venus, that's all, competition was tougher than that in 2006 and 2007, face it. With Henin and Sharapova OUT, the field is totally open for Serena, but that doesn't mean she don't deserve the Majors she wins right now, it's just I don't see who can beat her.

bandabou
Jul 20th, 2009, 12:33 PM
Noone ever said Serena isn't a great champion, but right now she is winning with no BIG competition, that's it. Who did she beat on her way to win US, OZ, and Winbledon, a nervous Venus, that's all, competition was tougher than that in 2006 and 2007, face it. With Henin and Sharapova OUT, the field is totally open for Serena, but that doesn't mean she don't deserve the Majors she wins right now, it's just I don't see who can beat her.

2005 was tougher, really? who was Juju's competition? Momo..that's it. Wow, great competition.

People are forgetting that Serena did have to save mp against elena D, it ain't like she is double-bageling the field.
Contrast that to any of Justine's RG's..but nobody was saying: lack of competition, yada yada.

bandabou
Jul 20th, 2009, 12:34 PM
Serena even more :tape:

To say nothing of Juju...

AcesHigh
Jul 20th, 2009, 12:39 PM
Here we go again. Today's game? What's that supposed to mean? When Juju was kinda winning, not really..she was clay-queen with the odd final at the Open or Oz open here and there, the field was good...Juju was great champ yada yada.

Yet now that it's Serema who's winning, it's become it doesn't take too much??? If it was that easy...why couldn't Juju win at Wimbledon?

Kinda winning? :lol: Serena is a great champ too... but the field being poor has nothing to do with her. It's not her fault Venus, Ana, Jelena, and others all suck right now. It's not her fault Henin retired, Davenport is out, Kim retired and Mauresmo is playing like she's about to.

2005 was tougher, really? who was Juju's competition? Momo..that's it. Wow, great competition.

People are forgetting that Serena did have to save mp against elena D, it ain't like she is double-bageling the field.
Contrast that to any of Justine's RG's..but nobody was saying: lack of competition, yada yada.

:lol: Yes, the amazing champion Elena Dementieva. If you have to use Dementieva to show how tough a field is :help:

Sam L
Jul 20th, 2009, 12:47 PM
Kinda winning? :lol: Serena is a great champ too... but the field being poor has nothing to do with her. It's not her fault Venus, Ana, Jelena, and others all suck right now. It's not her fault Henin retired, Davenport is out, Kim retired and Mauresmo is playing like she's about to.



:lol: Yes, the amazing champion Elena Dementieva. If you have to use Dementieva to show how tough a field is :help:

The field being poor? Open your biased eyes. I've been watching tennis since late 80s and the field was never poorer than 1993-94. Never. :help:

jade001
Jul 20th, 2009, 12:47 PM
2005 was tougher, really? who was Juju's competition? Momo..that's it. Wow, great competition.

People are forgetting that Serena did have to save mp against elena D, it ain't like she is double-bageling the field.
Contrast that to any of Justine's RG's..but nobody was saying: lack of competition, yada yada.

Justine had to save Mp against Kuz in 2005, and that's not the point. There is clearly Sth wrong right now, everyone can see it, except Serena fans, Safina is N1, Safina, OMG, she is not even a threat to Ws, because as far as I remember when Momo was N1, she won Wimbledon, she beat Serena at US open, I won't say she was the best N1 but compare to Safina, there is a big gap, and she defeated Henin twice at Slams, something Serena couldn't even make.

jade001
Jul 20th, 2009, 01:02 PM
Yes, the amazing champion Elena Dementieva. If you have to use Dementieva to show how tough a field is :help:

Agree, seriously since when Dementieva is a contender to any Slam?

bandabou
Jul 20th, 2009, 01:32 PM
Kinda winning? :lol: Serena is a great champ too... but the field being poor has nothing to do with her. It's not her fault Venus, Ana, Jelena, and others all suck right now. It's not her fault Henin retired, Davenport is out, Kim retired and Mauresmo is playing like she's about to.



:lol: Yes, the amazing champion Elena Dementieva. If you have to use Dementieva to show how tough a field is :help:

And who was there when Justine was winning??

Still nobody can't tell me who was there to stop Justine in contrast to who's lacking now in the eyes of some.

bandabou
Jul 20th, 2009, 01:36 PM
Justine had to save Mp against Kuz in 2005, and that's not the point. There is clearly Sth wrong right now, everyone can see it, except Serena fans, Safina is N1, Safina, OMG, she is not even a threat to Ws, because as far as I remember when Momo was N1, she won Wimbledon, she beat Serena at US open, I won't say she was the best N1 but compare to Safina, there is a big gap, and she defeated Henin twice at Slams, something Serena couldn't even make.

So if Serena was no.1 and winning majors, instead of Safina, then suddenly the field would be good?

:lol: and Momo only beat Serena once at a major..so who was weak now? Juju or Serena?

Tell us what's really wrong with the tour? When it was Juju doing all the winning, it was all good no? Now Serena goes on a lil streak at the majors, the moaning begins?

jade001
Jul 20th, 2009, 01:38 PM
And who was there when Justine was winning?.

Hmmmm Serena:lol: but she failed three times.

bandabou
Jul 20th, 2009, 01:46 PM
Hmmmm Serena:lol: but she failed three times.

Very well. And that wasn't a problem?
See..that's all the problem. It ain't about no field, it's about WHO's winning.

Steffica Greles
Jul 20th, 2009, 01:48 PM
I find it amusing that Bandabou keeps banging on about the 'Selestials' not accepting Seles didn't win slams beyond '96 because she was fat. I don't know even one of Seles' most rabid fans who would disagree with that? Maybe Bandabou can't accept that Seles followers DO accept the obvious. So he has to pretend, bless.

Anyway. Seles was one of the pioneers of the modern Pig Movement, much to the fore in modern women's tennis: the prototype of Serena, Safina, sometimes Kuznetsova, Bartoli, Gronefeld, Petrova - all big fat girls, and proud of it. Some of them even snort in interviews.

I think anybody discerning would notice that Seles' results, and average shape before the stabbing, compared with after the stabbing, meant that the event itself had a significant bearing on her transformation.

Matt01
Jul 20th, 2009, 01:48 PM
To say nothing of Juju...


Or even Venus :tape: :o

AcesHigh
Jul 20th, 2009, 01:53 PM
And who was there when Justine was winning??

Still nobody can't tell me who was there to stop Justine in contrast to who's lacking now in the eyes of some.

:weirdo:

Serena
Venus
Sharapova
Mauresmo
Pierce
Davenport
Clijsters
and then all the players who are currently playing, except Ivanovic and Jankovic were actually playing well in 2007.

bandabou
Jul 20th, 2009, 02:08 PM
:weirdo:

Serena
Venus
Sharapova
Mauresmo
Pierce
Davenport
Clijsters
and then all the players who are currently playing, except Ivanovic and Jankovic were actually playing well in 2007.

Funny you say this.. as Serena and Justine rarely met each other at the majors. In fact there was a time where Justine's only won one major, '03 RG, by actually beating Serenaa or with Serena in the draw. And vice versa for Serena, since she was excelling at the Oz open...a major where Justine wasn't much of a factor.

But then '07 happened, Juju beat Serena thrice at the majors..and people act like this was the entire time for Juju.

bandabou
Jul 20th, 2009, 02:12 PM
I find it amusing that Bandabou keeps banging on about the 'Selestials' not accepting Seles didn't win slams beyond '96 because she was fat. I don't know even one of Seles' most rabid fans who would disagree with that? Maybe Bandabou can't accept that Seles followers DO accept the obvious. So he has to pretend, bless.

Anyway. Seles was one of the pioneers of the modern Pig Movement, much to the fore in modern women's tennis: the prototype of Serena, Safina, sometimes Kuznetsova, Bartoli, Gronefeld, Petrova - all big fat girls, and proud of it. Some of them even snort in interviews.

I think anybody discerning would notice that Seles' results, and average shape before the stabbing, compared with after the stabbing, meant that the event itself had a significant bearing on her transformation.

Really??? And I guess if we go analyse when Serena was at her biggest, then we can see that it was around the time her sister got killed and during the trials of her case. Everybody got excuses.

And who's bringing up the stabbing again?? I guess all those Graf vs Seles-thread were about Seles being fat, huh?

bandabou
Jul 20th, 2009, 02:12 PM
Or even Venus :tape: :o

Still playing..

jade001
Jul 20th, 2009, 02:14 PM
Very well. And that wasn't a problem?
See..that's all the problem. It ain't about no field, it's about WHO's winning.

No that wasn't, as far as I remember Serena won OZ in 2007, Henin defeated a Slam winner in her way to win Slams, Serena everywhere, and Vee( wimbledon champ) at Uso, who did Serena beat these days, only mental midgets. I agree about one thing, Sharapova and Mauresmo were nowhere near their best level, and Henin def. took advtange of it, Sharapova and Maurrsmo are the only ones who defeated Henin at Majors since 2006, oh and Bartoli :lol:

AcesHigh
Jul 20th, 2009, 02:28 PM
Funny you say this.. as Serena and Justine rarely met each other at the majors. In fact there was a time where Justine's only won one major, '03 RG, by actually beating Serenaa or with Serena in the draw. And vice versa for Serena, since she was excelling at the Oz open...a major where Justine wasn't much of a factor.

But then '07 happened, Juju beat Serena thrice at the majors..and people act like this was the entire time for Juju.

Where do you get your info? Justine won AO twice and made the final another time and a SF another time. And she wasn't much of a factor?

Anyway, you asked a question and I answered it. The field was a lot deeper yet Henin kept a winning % hovering around 90% during from 2003-2007

bandabou
Jul 20th, 2009, 02:29 PM
No that wasn't, as far as I remember Serena won OZ in 2007, Henin defeated a Slam winner in her way to win Slams, Serena everywhere, and Vee( wimbledon champ) at Uso, who did Serena beat these days, only mental midgets. I agree about one thing, Sharapova and Mauresmo were nowhere near their best level, and Henin def. took advtange of it, Sharapova and Maurrsmo are the only ones who defeated Henin at Majors since 2006, oh and Bartoli :lol:

Nice..and then I say this to you. Starting at u.s. open'08: Serena defeated Vee, the two-time reigning Wimbledon champ, en route to the title. At the '09 Oz open, she was the only active champ in the draw ( not surprising since she's won it the most this decade) since Maria was injured... and again beat Vee, two-time reigning Wimbledon champ to win Wimbledon.

Not much difference there. So why is it an achievement when Juju beat Vee, but when Serena beat the same Vee at Wimbledon!! ( a bigger achievement than beating her at the Open which she hasn't won in 7/8 years??)...it's all moaning about weak field?

jade001
Jul 20th, 2009, 02:31 PM
Where do you get your info? Justine won AO twice and made the final another time and a SF another time. And she wasn't much of a factor?

Anyway, you asked a question and I answered it. The field was a lot deeper yet Henin kept a winning % hovering around 90% during from 2003-2007

Justine won Ao just once.

AcesHigh
Jul 20th, 2009, 02:35 PM
Justine won Ao just once.

I stand corrected :)

bandabou
Jul 20th, 2009, 02:40 PM
Where do you get your info? Justine won AO twice and made the final another time and a SF another time. And she wasn't much of a factor?

Anyway, you asked a question and I answered it. The field was a lot deeper yet Henin kept a winning % hovering around 90% during from 2003-2007

Won Oz open twice???! What are you talking about..it was the U.S. Open amigo.

The field was deeper you say, huh? When I already pointed out the you that apart from '07 Justine didn't have much competition. Go back and look to who actually was there. instead of talking talking..

Take u.s.open ' 08 and '09 Oz open out of it.. from '05- '07 Serena's opponents in EVERY major final she won and contrast that to JuJu's.

Serena: Davenport '05 oz open, Sharapova '07 oz open and Venus '09 Wimbledon
Juju: Pierce '05 RG, '06 Sveta, '07 Ivanovic, ' 07 Sveta again ( but she did beat the sisters back to back, so that's good).

really who had the easiest opponents? And let's not even talk about who they had to beat to get there.

jade001
Jul 20th, 2009, 02:47 PM
Not much difference there. So why is it an achievement when Juju beat Vee, but when Serena beat the same Vee at Wimbledon!! ( a bigger achievement than beating her at the Open which she hasn't won in 7/8 years??)...it's all moaning about weak field?

Actually, what Serrna did is amazing, defeating the dble defending champ :worship: I have nothing to say about that, Venus is the Queen on grass, so obviously defeating her is sth great.
But about Us and Oz, I am sorry the title was already for her before the tournament.

bandabou
Jul 20th, 2009, 03:01 PM
Actually, what Serrna did is amazing, defeating the dble defending champ :worship: I have nothing to say about that, Venus is the Queen on grass, so obviously defeating her is sth great.
But about Us and Oz, I am sorry the title was already for her before the tournament.

Well the same goes for Rg with Justine in the draw, Wimbledon with Vee.. last year's '08 u.s. open was like Serena's first title in 6 years, so it ain't like she dominates there, no?

Dave.
Jul 20th, 2009, 03:15 PM
Won Oz open twice???! What are you talking about..it was the U.S. Open amigo.

The field was deeper you say, huh? When I already pointed out the you that apart from '07 Justine didn't have much competition. Go back and look to who actually was there. instead of talking talking..

Take u.s.open ' 08 and '09 Oz open out of it.. from '05- '07 Serena's opponents in EVERY major final she won and contrast that to JuJu's.

Serena: Davenport '05 oz open, Sharapova '07 oz open and Venus '09 Wimbledon
Juju: Pierce '05 RG, '06 Sveta, '07 Ivanovic, ' 07 Sveta again ( but she did beat the sisters back to back, so that's good).

really who had the easiest opponents? And let's not even talk about who they had to beat to get there.

But Davenport in a major final is a walk in the park no? :shrug:

jade001
Jul 20th, 2009, 03:16 PM
Well the same goes for Rg with Justine in the draw, Wimbledon with Vee.. last year's '08 u.s. open was like Serena's first title in 6 years, so it ain't like she dominates there, no?

I don't think its comparable because we both know Henin was too good on clay for anyone, just like Vee on grass, unlike Serena on Hc, Serena never defended any of her OZ titles, and the fact the Us open title was already fit her before the tournament is because the field was kinda poor, all past winners weren't there, Clijsters 2005, Sharapova 2006, and the defending champ, retired. So obviously it's easier.

T-GIRL87
Jul 20th, 2009, 03:16 PM
Now since Serena's winning, the same old tired excuses and arguements are coming back in full force. Serena's too fat, and she's winning with no competition. She'd never beat peak graf, and her acheivements will never stack up to the likes of the legends. How can you honestly fault Serena for simply being the best player left standing in the majors? Even with the so called weak field, she still has to go out there and play these matches to the best of her abilities against the best players and athletes in the world. While Dementieva, may not be a Justine or Sharapova, she's still a formidable opponent, and was able to force Serena to come up with clutch serves and shotmaking. Should all her trophies suddenly be taken away b/c she didn't face Justine or graf, or Navratilova in route to these finals? At the end of the day, you play the opponent in front of you, and if you triumph it's because you were better, trying to devalue Serena's accomplishments by saying that she didn't beat this player, or that she's only winning b/c such and such retired doesn't change the fact that she has 11 majors and still going.

bandabou
Jul 20th, 2009, 03:50 PM
I don't think its comparable because we both know Henin was too good on clay for anyone, just like Vee on grass, unlike Serena on Hc, Serena never defended any of her OZ titles, and the fact the Us open title was already fit her before the tournament is because the field was kinda poor, all past winners weren't there, Clijsters 2005, Sharapova 2006, and the defending champ, retired. So obviously it's easier.

So you're saying that Henin and Vee are soooo much better on clay/grass than the rest that it isn't surprising when they win, yet when Serena wins an oz open or an u.s open the field is weak?

You do realise that Serena has 5 Miami's, 4 oz opens..amongst others on her resume, so she's proven that she is a MAJOR force on hardcourt. Sharapova??? :rolls: Come on...you saw what Serena did to her at the '07 oz open.
Clijsters? Only beat Serena once.. Justine? Serena already beat her 2 and O at Miami'08 and was coming in healthy this time around.

So just like Justine and Vee dominate grass, Serena does the same on hc..specially at the Oz open.

jade001
Jul 20th, 2009, 04:22 PM
So you're saying that Henin and Vee are soooo much better on clay/grass than the rest that it isn't surprising when they win, yet when Serena wins an oz open or an u.s open the field is weak?

You do realise that Serena has 5 Miami's, 4 oz opens..amongst others on her resume, so she's proven that she is a MAJOR force on hardcourt. Sharapova??? :rolls: Come on...you saw what Serena did to her at the '07 oz open.
Clijsters? Only beat Serena once.. Justine? Serena already beat her 2 and O at Miami'08 and was coming in healthy this time around.

So just like Justine and Vee dominate grass, Serena does the same on hc..specially at the Oz open.

Yes, she has 4 OZ, but she never defended any of her title, that's not a domination a la Henin on clay or Vee on grass.
And yeah, I know what she did to Sharapova but Sharapova did her the same thing. And we both know which loss is more choking :lol:

Denise4925
Jul 20th, 2009, 04:42 PM
Btw, it's ridiculous to call Serena fat. Steffica, just because you repeatedly say it, does not mean it's true. That's just the way Serena's body is. Although she's had fitness issues since 2004, Serena has gotten herself in pretty good shape for 2009. I still question her fitness b/c she can never seem to hold it together for a calendar year, but I think this is the best she's going to get for now. Luckily, you don't need much in today's game to come out on top.

That's a backhanded compliment, if I ever heard one. :lol:

Denise4925
Jul 20th, 2009, 04:45 PM
Noone ever said Serena isn't a great champion, but right now she is winning with no BIG competition, that's it. Who did she beat on her way to win US, OZ, and Winbledon, a nervous Venus, that's all, competition was tougher than that in 2006 and 2007, face it. With Henin and Sharapova OUT, the field is totally open for Serena, but that doesn't mean she don't deserve the Majors she wins right now, it's just I don't see who can beat her.

:lol: Who was Henin's competition? :confused: Mauresmo, Sharapova? If Sharapova is OUT now, then in the greater part of 2006 and 2007 Venus and Serena were OUT.

Denise4925
Jul 20th, 2009, 04:47 PM
Justine had to save Mp against Kuz in 2005, and that's not the point. There is clearly Sth wrong right now, everyone can see it, except Serena fans, Safina is N1, Safina, OMG, she is not even a threat to Ws, because as far as I remember when Momo was N1, she won Wimbledon, she beat Serena at US open, I won't say she was the best N1 but compare to Safina, there is a big gap, and she defeated Henin twice at Slams, something Serena couldn't even make.

Huh?? Are you sure? :lol:

HRHoliviasmith
Jul 20th, 2009, 04:49 PM
Now since Serena's winning, the same old tired excuses and arguements are coming back in full force. Serena's too fat, and she's winning with no competition. She'd never beat peak graf, and her acheivements will never stack up to the likes of the legends. How can you honestly fault Serena for simply being the best player left standing in the majors? Even with the so called weak field, she still has to go out there and play these matches to the best of her abilities against the best players and athletes in the world. While Dementieva, may not be a Justine or Sharapova, she's still a formidable opponent, and was able to force Serena to come up with clutch serves and shotmaking. Should all her trophies suddenly be taken away b/c she didn't face Justine or graf, or Navratilova in route to these finals? At the end of the day, you play the opponent in front of you, and if you triumph it's because you were better, trying to devalue Serena's accomplishments by saying that she didn't beat this player, or that she's only winning b/c such and such retired doesn't change the fact that she has 11 majors and still going.

:worship:

jade001
Jul 20th, 2009, 05:01 PM
:lol: Who was Henin's competition? :confused: Mauresmo, Sharapova? If Sharapova is OUT now, then in the greater part of 2006 and 2007 Venus and Serena were OUT. :lol:

Say whatever u want but Sharapova and Mauresmo beat Henin DURING Slams after 2006, Serena didn't.
Bandabou, it was great to argue with you:lol:

Denise4925
Jul 20th, 2009, 05:01 PM
Where do you get your info? Justine won AO twice and made the final another time and a SF another time. And she wasn't much of a factor?

Anyway, you asked a question and I answered it. The field was a lot deeper yet Henin kept a winning % hovering around 90% during from 2003-2007

Justine only won AO once.