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View Full Version : Is it better for the WS to play in the semis or in the final at Wimbledon ?


LightWarrior
Jun 17th, 2009, 11:15 PM
I know WS fans usually think it's better for them not to be in the same side of the draw for obvious reasons. But WS finals have always been disappointing and frustrating - Wimbledon is no exception. This is even more acute at Wimbledon.
For the sake of the game I think it would be better if they don't play in the final.
For some reason I believe Serena has a better chance at beating Venus in the semis than in the final. 5-times champion seems unbeatable in a Wimbledon final. Serena choked a bit last year.

Rolling-Thunder
Jun 17th, 2009, 11:24 PM
One thing you can say about their finals is at least they are not lopsided. You can't say the same about the finals of the Aussie Open or FO which were not that competitive since one player seemed not to show up. So why would it be worse for the game if the WS meet in the final? You could say the same thing about Safina being bad for the womens game or it being bad for the game if she makes another slam final. Each final has its own dynamics for good or bad. You watch tennis because you like the game regardless of who is playing or even the quality from match to match.

Frankly I beleiev their play against each other has gotten much better. And they have had some good matches, especially on grass.

iWill
Jun 17th, 2009, 11:25 PM
You may be right. They could potentially play a better SF then a final would be. However with me personally I think its a shame if they meet before the final at Wimbledon. Only because on grass I feel they are the best two players in the world and even though only one can win I think its nice to see the two best on the surface meet in the finals. Just like it was nice seein the best to players on clay this season play in the FO final even if it was a BORE it still seemed right that it was the final, and to ME it just seems fitting that they meet in the final. If they don't there isn't much we can do about it but it would be nice.

edificio
Jun 17th, 2009, 11:32 PM
I know WS fans usually think it's better for them not to be in the same side of the draw for obvious reasons. But WS finals have always been disappointing and frustrating - Wimbledon is no exception. This is even more acute at Wimbledon.
For the sake of the game I think it would be better if they don't play in the final.
For some reason I believe Serena has a better chance at beating Venus in the semis than in the final. 5-times champion seems unbeatable in a Wimbledon final. Serena choked a bit last year.

I do not agree with your sentiments here. Not a bit. The only matchup between the two at Wimbledon that I did not enjoy was the one in which Venus had an abdominal injury. Also, last year's matchup was very good. Try to convince me that this year's RG final was even comparable in terms of quality.

It is, of course, better that they be on opposite sides of the draw because they are, at the moment, the two best grass-court players. They should meet in the final, all things being equal. However, I do not think it matters where either is seeded, but it would be fairest if these two were on opposite sides of the draw.

Obviously, either could lose before the final. Who knows what will happen? That's why they play the matches. Nobody gave Roger any chance of winning at RG. [Okay, this last bit was off-topic, but...]

LightWarrior
Jun 17th, 2009, 11:35 PM
One thing you can say about their finals is at least they are not lopsided. You can't say the same about the finals of the Aussie Open or FO which were not that competitive since one player seemed not to show up. So why would it be worse for the game if the WS meet in the final? You could say the same thing about Safina being bad for the womens game or it being bad for the game if she makes another slam final. Each final has its own dynamics for good or bad. You watch tennis because you like the game regardless of who is playing or even the quality from match to match.

Frankly I beleiev their play against each other has gotten much better. And they have had some good matches, especially on grass.

I agree, it has gotten better over the years. But you can't deny the fact that it's still "biased". Most WS matches have gone to 3 sets. I give you that set, you give me mine, it's all decided in the third. They still don't fight it all out. Safina choking in GS finals has nothing to do with the topic (but yeah, she sucks!).

Andy.
Jun 17th, 2009, 11:35 PM
If masha cant make the final I would love another all Williams final like last year. The match last year was a very high qulity affair with a great display of powerful, althletic, all court tennis.

HRHoliviasmith
Jun 17th, 2009, 11:36 PM
as long as Serena wins (it all)....really don't care either way.

In The Zone
Jun 17th, 2009, 11:37 PM
I don't mind both. Love to see my girls duking it out in a final but at the same time, if one has to beat the other in a semifinal, it makes it easier to cheer and be happy for the other to win the final. :D

Kenny
Jun 17th, 2009, 11:38 PM
Whether I'm a Williams fan or not, the two best players on grass are Venus and Serena, so for that reason of course I want to see an all-Williams final.

Go figure, there!

LightWarrior
Jun 17th, 2009, 11:44 PM
To WS fans : my point is that they gut it out in the semi final. The winner - Venus or Serena - will crush her opponent in the final. I mean I love the way Serena crushed Safina at the OA, that was great. And those who say last year's final was great, I'm sorry to say it wasn't because of Serena's choking.

young_gunner913
Jun 18th, 2009, 12:00 AM
I want to see an all-Williams final, I'm still very optimistic about the chance of that happening. If they have to meet in the SF, so be it. The winner will go on and win it. :shrug:

Andy.
Jun 18th, 2009, 12:07 AM
To WS fans : my point is that they gut it out in the semi final. The winner - Venus or Serena - will crush her opponent in the final. I mean I love the way Serena crushed Safina at the OA, that was great. And those who say last year's final was great, I'm sorry to say it wasn't because of Serena's choking.
I thought it was one of the best quality matches of the whole year (2008) along with their US Open quarter final. Certainly not many matches were played at that level last year if any other matches.

edificio
Jun 18th, 2009, 12:10 AM
To WS fans : my point is that they gut it out in the semi final. The winner - Venus or Serena - will crush her opponent in the final.

In the SF, yeah, they are both gutting it out to make the final. If one or the other makes the final, the goal will be to win at all costs. In last year's final, I thought Venus had all the confidence in the world, even with Serena starting off really well. There was just that single turn in the first set that decided the outcome. Serena recognized that moment, too. Venus was going to win, even if Serena played well. In any case, the goal is always a win first and beautiful tennis second (even if fans want a museum-quality match). Still we don't know what will happen this year, but no doubt people will complain about the quality.

LightWarrior
Jun 18th, 2009, 12:25 AM
(2008) along with their US Open quarter final.

I still believe Venus decided to squander those 10 (or was it 20) set points. She obviously wanted Serena to win a slam (unconsciouly, just to remain politically correct). A 2008 slamless year would have been unacceptable and devastating for Serena.

vwfan
Jun 18th, 2009, 11:37 AM
To WS fans : my point is that they gut it out in the semi final. The winner - Venus or Serena - will crush her opponent in the final. I mean I love the way Serena crushed Safina at the OA, that was great. And those who say last year's final was great, I'm sorry to say it wasn't because of Serena's choking.Serena didn't choke. She was never in a position to win by having either a setpoint or a matchpoint.

She played tough (she was on fire for the first several games), but Venus punished every second serve that came her way (Serena's points won on second serve % was something like 17%) and she played all the big points better. The fact is that Venus has a better, more effective serve on grass than Serena and Serena has a better more effective serve on hardcourts. On clay, :o

Add Venus' superior movement on grass. . .and we know the result.

The serve and movement was the difference in that match and both advantages go to Venus on grass. Hardcourts we have a different conversation.

vwfan
Jun 18th, 2009, 11:43 AM
I still believe Venus decided to squander those 10 (or was it 20) set points. She obviously wanted Serena to win a slam (unconsciouly, just to remain politically correct). A 2008 slamless year would have been unacceptable and devastating for Serena.
Now that was a choke, since Venus had setpoints in both sets!

Still, I don't think Venus sacrificed herself for Serena. She wanted to win. Serena played the bigger points better. :sad: and Venus didn't. End of story.

I think that now they are both playing to WIN. And if one loses, they root for the other, but when they play each other they are both bringing it.

Each match in the past year has been close--even the two matches that went only two sets. You never know who is going to win until the last ball toss.

It should make for good tennis, but if you're a fan of either or both: it's :help:

TomTennis
Jun 18th, 2009, 12:09 PM
They are the two best grass court players out of all the women in the draw. I hope they are given the chance to meet in the final.

Venus has a phenominal semi-final record at Wimbledon. 7 wins and 0 losses, beating the likes of S.Williams, Henin, Clijsters, Davenport, Sharapova, Ivanovic, and Dementieva; So if Serena is to win I think she has a better chance in the final, not the semi's.

I want Venus to win her 6th title, beating Serena in the final.

bandabou
Jun 18th, 2009, 12:13 PM
I think of the current crop..at Wimbledon they are the only two who can and will bring it mentally in a final. So in that sense...better meet in the F.

Zweli
Jun 18th, 2009, 12:31 PM
When you say for sake of the game it would be better they don't play the final,what do you mean? if I may ask

geoepee
Jun 18th, 2009, 12:43 PM
When you say for sake of the game it would be better they don't play the final,what do you mean? if I may ask
yeah, that point confused me as well. please explain that part..

NeeemZ
Jun 18th, 2009, 12:52 PM
They are the two best grass court players out of all the women in the draw. I hope they are given the chance to meet in the final.

Venus has a phenominal semi-final record at Wimbledon. 7 wins and 0 losses, beating the likes of S.Williams, Henin, Clijsters, Davenport, Sharapova, Ivanovic, and Dementieva; So if Serena is to win I think she has a better chance in the final, not the semi's.

I want Venus to win her 6th title, beating Serena in the final.

Serena has won all her semis at Wimbledon since 2000. I don't think there is a psychological advantage when they play or which round they face each other. A Serena supporter could have brought up a point last year that Serena would wanna face Venus in the final as she had beaten her twice previously in the Wimbledon final and that she had won their previous 5 GS final encounters, whereas Venus only won her match way back in 2001 at the US.

So I don't believe that there is an advantage for either player citing previous results.

vwfan
Jun 18th, 2009, 12:54 PM
They are the two best grass court players out of all the women in the draw. I hope they are given the chance to meet in the final.

Venus has a phenominal semi-final record at Wimbledon. 7 wins and 0 losses, beating the likes of S.Williams, Henin, Clijsters, Davenport, Sharapova, Ivanovic, and Dementieva; So if Serena is to win I think she has a better chance in the final, not the semi's.

I want Venus to win her 6th title, beating Serena in the final.:worship: good post.

let's get #6 Venus. That would just be: :eek: and solidify her status as grasscourt great champions.

santhuruu
Jun 18th, 2009, 01:00 PM
Final of course, it is always exciting to see and find out if they are going to make it. I always think that they stimulate each other, if the first sibling gets to the next round, you don't want to perform worse right?

Volcana
Jun 18th, 2009, 02:28 PM
They should meet in the final. Of this particular tournament, since they are far and away the best performers at this tournament. Venus has played in seven of the last nine finals. Serena has played in four of the last seven finals. No other active player has even played in more than one Wimbledon final.

The third best active Wimbledon performer is .... Amelie Mauresmo. Last five years, SF, SF, CH, 4r, 3r. The fourth best active Wimbledon performer probably Sharapova. Last five years, CH, SF, SF, 4r, 2r. But in both cases, they haven't done well the past two years.

In fact, among active players not named Venus, the past to years are marked by inconsistency.

07 08 - Name
QF, FR - Serena
FR, 3r - Bartoli
3r, SF - Dementieva
4r, 4r - Jankovic
SF, 3r - AI
QF, 4r - Kuzzy
4r, 2r - Sharapova
4r, 3r - Mauesmo
2r, 3r - Safina

Okay, so grass is a 'vanity' surface. But based on the last two years, who would you pick to win if Venus doesn't. Nobody (besides Serena, this is a correction) has a consistent, high-quaility record at the big W besides Venus the last couple years.

NeeemZ
Jun 18th, 2009, 02:50 PM
They should meet in the final. Of this particular tournament, since they are far and away the best performers at this tournament. Venus has played in seven of the last nine finals. Serena has played in four of the last seven finals. No other active player has even played in more than one Wimbledon final.

The third best active Wimbledon performer is .... Amelie Mauresmo. Last five years, SF, SF, CH, 4r, 3r. The fourth best active Wimbledon performer probably Sharapova. Last five years, CH, SF, SF, 4r, 2r. But in both cases, they haven't done well the past two years.

In fact, among active players not named Venus, the past to years are marked by inconsistency.

07 08 - Name
3r, FR - Serena
FR, 3r - Bartoli
3r, SF - Dementieva
4r, 4r - Jankovic
SF, 3r - AI
QF, 4r - Kuzzy
4r, 2r - Sharapova
4r, 3r - Mauesmo
2r, 3r - Safina

Okay, so grass is a 'vanity' surface. But based on the last two years, who would you pick to win if Venus doesn't. Nobody has a consistent, high-quaility record at the big W besides Venus the last couple years.

Serena made the Quarters in 2007. She lost to Henin in a three-setter.

I don't know if you wanna add this to your stats because it is a weird stat but Vaidisova's last two Wimbledon results have been QF in 07 and 08. I think it's weird that she has (arguably) the third most consistant result in the past two Wimbledons among current players.

Petrova is also 4th and QTR considering that grass is not her preferred surface.

friendsita
Jun 18th, 2009, 03:44 PM
In the final!

Calypso
Jun 18th, 2009, 05:20 PM
Finals of course.

That way, at least one of them takes home the trophy. I don't care much about the 'boring' finals. Try pretending that the semis between either sister and someone else was the final, and the all-Williams final was a bonus-match ;).

Volcana
Jun 18th, 2009, 05:31 PM
Serena made the Quarters in 2007. She lost to Henin in a three-setter.Thank you. I, well I guess the word would be 'mis-contracted' a list of her overall results, and out in the 0 result instead of 07.I don't know if you wanna add this to your stats because it is a weird stat but Vaidisova's last two Wimbledon results have been QF in 07 and 08. I think it's weird that she has (arguably) the third most consistant result in the past two Wimbledons among current players.

Petrova is also 4th and QTR considering that grass is not her preferred surface.Petrova is probably more significant. But Vaidisova could, concievably, be in the kind of doldrums VEnus got into from 05 - 07, and somehow Wimbledon just brings something out in her.

VeeReeDavJCap81
Jun 18th, 2009, 06:24 PM
Being an equal fan of both, I'd want them in the final and I'd root for Venus to get her 6th title since Serena already has a slam this year and also so Venus gets closer to the top 2 on all time winners list. I doubt Venus will get to 9 but she definitely has a shot a matching 7 if she wins her 6th this year.

LightWarrior
Jun 18th, 2009, 08:19 PM
When you say for sake of the game it would be better they don't play the final,what do you mean? if I may ask

As the nerves seem to get more involved when they play in the final (Serena did choke in last year's final), maybe it's better for the quality of play if they meet in the final.
Also I'm more a Serena fan so I thought maybe it would be better for her to play Venus before the final, especially at Wimbledon.

The Dawntreader
Jun 18th, 2009, 08:28 PM
As the nerves seem to get more involved when they play in the final (Serena did choke in last year's final), maybe it's better for the quality of play if they meet in the final.
Also I'm more a Serena fan so I thought maybe it would be better for her to play Venus before the final, especially at Wimbledon.

This is the biggest misconception on the board in the last year.

I can't think of one instance where she choked. She was never in any position too. Being up a break is hardly a foregone conclusion.

Tennisstar86
Jun 18th, 2009, 08:30 PM
Serena's not making it that far this year anyways...

le bon vivant
Jun 18th, 2009, 08:36 PM
Meh I dont care, as long as Venus loses.

LightWarrior
Jun 18th, 2009, 08:37 PM
This is the biggest misconception on the board in the last year.

I can't think of one instance where she choked. She was never in any position too. Being up a break is hardly a foregone conclusion.

It's not just being up a break, it's the whole match. She made far more UE during this match than in any of her previous 6. She was tight, she squandered many break points. I don't see it being "the biggest misconception in the last year" (lol), it's just a fact.

The Dawntreader
Jun 18th, 2009, 08:43 PM
It's not just being up a break, it's the whole match. She made far more UE during this match than in any of her previous 6. She was tight, she squandered many break points. I don't see it being "the biggest misconception in the last year" (lol), it's just a fact.

A choke would imply she had some decisive, seemingly inescapable lead. She didn't. So she made more unforcec errors, it's not like she was just a frozen mess out there, she was just out-played ultimately. It happens.

LightWarrior
Jun 18th, 2009, 08:49 PM
A choke would imply she had some decisive, seemingly inescapable lead. She didn't. So she made more unforcec errors, it's not like she was just a frozen mess out there, she was just out-played ultimately. It happens.

Obviously she didn't choke à la Safina. I said it's a mild choke. Fyi, definition of choking : "To fail to perform effectively because of nervous agitation or tension". Hence the UE, hence squandering BP etc.

Tennisstar86
Jun 18th, 2009, 08:51 PM
It's not just being up a break, it's the whole match. She made far more UE during this match than in any of her previous 6. She was tight, she squandered many break points. I don't see it being "the biggest misconception in the last year" (lol), it's just a fact.

:rolleyes: Serena played Jie Zheng in the semi's whose 5 foot nothing....

In the finals he played Venus who not only is the fastest player on tour is also one of the tallest. with the longest wingspan.... OF COURSE she made more unforced errors... she had to go for more on her shots.....

gmokb
Jun 18th, 2009, 08:53 PM
Hell no, I want an all WS final. I don't think their finals are boring, in fact most of the non WS finals are pretty dull, example being that hot mess that just took place at the FO.

The Dawntreader
Jun 18th, 2009, 08:58 PM
Obviously she didn't choke à la Safina. I said it's a mild choke. Fyi, definition of choking : "To fail to perform effectively because of nervous agitation or tension". Hence the UE, hence squandering BP etc.

What you're suggesting though, is that the match was all on Serena's terms and she 'threw' it away. Which of course, is not the case.

LightWarrior
Jun 18th, 2009, 09:08 PM
What you're suggesting though, is that the match was all on Serena's terms and she 'threw' it away. Which of course, is not the case.

Of course she didn't throw it away. Venus played good, but not awesome, just enough to win against a nervous Serena.

colt13
Jun 18th, 2009, 09:11 PM
I would rather see them in a SF than F. Reason why is the Serena drama overshadows eveything, for instance, more coverage given to Serena's poor attitude last year as opposed to Venus winning.

Plus to sell the sport, it is easier to sell the final, so a big media covered semi with the Williams Sisters would help.

vwfan
Jun 18th, 2009, 09:38 PM
Of course she didn't throw it away. Venus played good, but not awesome, just enough to win against a nervous Serena.no. not the legendary "best fighter on tour," come from behind magician.

Serena is a phenomenal player, but Wimbledon is NOT the Australian Open and she was going to have to bring it ALL and consistently against the best grasscourt player of her generation. She didn't, couldn't. Serena did not lose that match. Venus won the match.

Venus did to Serena what she does to everyone at Wimbledon: force them to go for too much because of her reach and speed, while protecting her serve at all costs. Serena had a couple of break points against Venus at critical points and she couldn't convert. Sometimes Venus served a bomb (usually into Serena's body and taking away her return game), other times she moved in to close out the point at the net with a solid volley, or she outrallied Serena from the baseline during an extended rally.

I just rewatched the match again and I guess fans see different things, but Serena did not choke. Serena only led in the match during the first seven games of the match. And after she lost the first set, it was pretty inevitable who was walking away with the trophy. The last three games of the match Venus just raised her level even more and closed it out without breaking a sweat.

It's the same thing she did against Linds in the 2005 final. Linds led the entire final, but Venus played the critical points better. Even with a Championship point, I don't think anyone can say Linds choked. The last three games of the match after Venus took the point on that long rally at 15-30 down on her serve, everyone knew it was over. Linds lost her serve the next game giving Venus the lead for the first time in a nearly three hour match. Venus closed it out serving for the match and the rest is history. Literally. :angel: