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View Full Version : 3 Guys 1 Hammer Video. Extremely Graphic Details


mirzalover
Jun 3rd, 2009, 11:08 PM
I dont thinking posting a link to the video is needed to get the picture across. Gore doesnt bother me at all but this video was wrong.


These 3 teens from the Ukraine basically murdered this olderly man with a hammer and screwdriver. This one kid beats the guy in the head with the hammer and then they take a screwdriver and stab him in the stomach. Then to top it off, they dig the screwdriver into the guys eye and jig it back and forth. At the end they take the hammer again and start beating the guy in his temple. The worst part of the video is the fact they are laughing and smiling the whole time while the guy is like trying to breathe and its just...:sad:


These teens had killed 21(-/+) people in the Ukraine before they got caught because the 3rd guy in this killing, filmed it and blogged about it.

The 2 teens who actually did physical damage got life in prison while the guy who filmed it got 9 years.


It honestly brought a tear to my eye cause its soo cruel and just wrong. Once he got hit in the face with the hammer and I got over the shock of what I just saw I tried to skip over the video cause I thought there would be some summary or facts about what happened to the killers. So I'm not sure about the details of the killing completely because I just got the info from youtube reactions and the post in topic from the forum I was linked to.

ElusiveChanteuse
Jun 3rd, 2009, 11:20 PM
I thought it was the other version of the '3 girls one cup'.:o

:tape: Just the description alone actually makes me wanna puke.

mirzalover
Jun 3rd, 2009, 11:23 PM
I was thinking about posting the link but I dont know really...


You couldnt even really make out parts of the guys face after they hit him. Its was just flat and red from the blood.

mirzalover
Jun 3rd, 2009, 11:24 PM
I thought it was the other version of the '3 girls one cup'.:o

:tape: Just the description alone actually makes me wanna puke.

I thought it was to at first.

comfortably.numb
Jun 3rd, 2009, 11:31 PM
Only 9 years???? That strikes me as ridiculous. There has to be some other type of punishment. I don't even want to watch the video.

mirzalover
Jun 3rd, 2009, 11:39 PM
Only 9 years???? That strikes me as ridiculous. There has to be some other type of punishment. I don't even want to watch the video.


I was thinking 20 is a better sentence.

stevos
Jun 3rd, 2009, 11:54 PM
God, terrible title choice!
Wow, this is such a horrible, disgusting thing to even talk about. Really sickening.
Even the mental images from it make me really down.

mirzalover
Jun 4th, 2009, 12:11 AM
God, terrible title choice!
Wow, this is such a horrible, disgusting thing to even talk about. Really sickening.
Even the mental images from it make me really down.

That is the title of the video so I just kept it. I didnt really even think about it.

Direwolf
Jun 4th, 2009, 12:21 AM
i really thought that they would put the hammer up their
asses or hit their dongs or something...

uhhmmm...
can u send me the link of the video??

Direwolf
Jun 4th, 2009, 12:34 AM
found it...
and

gosh...
even though its just buffering right now...
thinkin of it makes me...
eeewwwlll

Daniela-Is-Mine
Jun 4th, 2009, 12:39 AM
thats horrible and disgusting, poor guy.
was he dead before the vid started...
they need to be put in jail for life...

Direwolf
Jun 4th, 2009, 12:43 AM
thats horrible and disgusting, poor guy.
was he dead before the vid started...
they need to be put in jail for life...

this is one of the few times i wish
that they would have shot the guy first

mirzalover
Jun 4th, 2009, 12:46 AM
thats horrible and disgusting, poor guy.
was he dead before the vid started...
they need to be put in jail for life...

No he was alive the whole time. Moaning and stuff...

Daniela-Is-Mine
Jun 4th, 2009, 01:16 AM
No he was alive the whole time. Moaning and stuff...

I couldnt dare put the noise on... :o

Dominic
Jun 4th, 2009, 01:21 AM
OMG I just saw the vid, ppl like that are errors of nature.

~Eclipsed~
Jun 4th, 2009, 03:39 AM
Eww the mental image in my head is enough. There are some SICK people out there. 9 years in prison is not nearly enough. This is the type of case that should receive immediate death penatly. They should have done to them what they did to the people they murdered.

Granted, I know two wrongs don't make a right, but in this case...i don't know.

mirzalover
Jun 4th, 2009, 03:49 AM
They dont have the death penalty in the ukraine from what a couple on the comments said. Not sure if thats true or not.

Dominic
Jun 4th, 2009, 03:52 AM
Eww the mental image in my head is enough. There are some SICK people out there. 9 years in prison is not nearly enough. This is the type of case that should receive immediate death penatly. They should have done to them what they did to the people they murdered.

Granted, I know two wrongs don't make a right, but in this case...i don't know.

Honestly I totally agree

LeonHart
Jun 4th, 2009, 03:52 AM
OMG...they deserve the same treatment!! That is seriiously some sick stuff!!

~Eclipsed~
Jun 4th, 2009, 04:19 AM
They dont have the death penalty in the ukraine from what a couple on the comments said. Not sure if thats true or not.

Well a case like this should lead them to implement it for sure. :(

Wigglytuff
Jun 4th, 2009, 04:27 AM
wow thats really sick.

Marshmallow
Jun 4th, 2009, 11:38 AM
Your description is TOO graphic. I felt like I was right there in the room watching the murder with front row seats :sobbing:.

This is horrendus. How far off can people be to do this kind of thing? I really don't know what to say... maybe the OP should be banned for subjecting us to this story in the first place :tape:. Ugh... I'll never read another post by him again... who knows what other unspeakable horrors he'll decided to throw out at random.

stevos
Jun 4th, 2009, 05:01 PM
I'm sorry, but nothing will justify the death penalty for me, not even this. I know it's horrible, and causes emotional reaction, but the death penalty has serious philosophical issues for a society in my opinion. We can't just "put to sleep" people who have committed terrible wrongdoings. They are humans themselves, although they seem to try pretty hard to dehumanize themselves with this shit.

vadin124
Jun 4th, 2009, 05:13 PM
it tells you something about the mental state of that guy if he puts it on a blog...did he really think he wouldn't be caught?

sounds absolutely disgusting though...some people in this world, it defies belief

these "men" need to be sectioned...they define the term "psychopath"

seriously though, can't really understand what kind of person would want to watch this video though, even for curiosity purposes

~Eclipsed~
Jun 4th, 2009, 05:19 PM
I'm sorry, but nothing will justify the death penalty for me, not even this. I know it's horrible, and causes emotional reaction, but the death penalty has serious philosophical issues for a society in my opinion. We can't just "put to sleep" people who have committed terrible wrongdoings. They are humans themselves, although they seem to try pretty hard to dehumanize themselves with this shit.

I strongly disagree with this. I'm not a strong advocate of the death penalty myself, but in an extreme case like this, I see it as the only option. Despite any "philosophical issues" this might impress upon a society, justice needs to be served, period. I mean what is their defense, that they should be given the chance to live because their 21 times murders were mistakes or they weren't sure what they were doing? Anyone who gets this much enjoyment out of butchering another human being is pure evil.

OR think about it this way. If somehow they are released and decided to move to your area, would you feel safe with that? I sure as hell wouldn't.

ťgalitť
Jun 4th, 2009, 05:23 PM
Yeah I've seen that. I almost had the memories out of my mind until you made this thread. :smash: :tears:

ťgalitť
Jun 4th, 2009, 05:25 PM
^^Oh shit I just realized that I shouldn't have used the :smash: smiley. :tape:

Dominic
Jun 4th, 2009, 05:26 PM
I strongly disagree with this. I'm not a strong advocate of the death penalty myself, but in an extreme case like this, I see it as the only option. Despite any "philosophical issues" this might impress upon a society, justice needs to be served, period. I mean what is their defense, that they should be given the chance to live because their 21 times murders were mistakes or they weren't sure what they were doing? Anyone who gets this much enjoyment out of butchering another human being is pure evil.

OR think about it this way. If somehow they are released and decided to move to your area, would you feel safe with that? I sure as hell wouldn't.

I totally agree with this. There is nothing to do with these ppl, no matter how much therapy or treatment or whatever they might get, it is just obvious that they wont ever bring anything to society, they will always be a threat to peace and life. They are errors of nature and for the safety of real humans, should not be here.

HRHoliviasmith
Jun 4th, 2009, 05:40 PM
9 fucking years and life in prison???? they all deserved to die. is there no death penalty in ukraine? just disgusting. i'm not going to watch the video but i'm going to report it to youtube so they can take it down.

mirzalover
Jun 4th, 2009, 07:21 PM
9 fucking years and life in prison???? they all deserved to die. is there no death penalty in ukraine? just disgusting. i'm not going to watch the video but i'm going to report it to youtube so they can take it down.

Its not on youtube, just the reaction videos are.

Dodoboy.
Jun 4th, 2009, 08:43 PM
Oh dear!

stevos
Jun 4th, 2009, 09:28 PM
I strongly disagree with this. I'm not a strong advocate of the death penalty myself, but in an extreme case like this, I see it as the only option. Despite any "philosophical issues" this might impress upon a society, justice needs to be served, period. I mean what is their defense, that they should be given the chance to live because their 21 times murders were mistakes or they weren't sure what they were doing? Anyone who gets this much enjoyment out of butchering another human being is pure evil.

OR think about it this way. If somehow they are released and decided to move to your area, would you feel safe with that? I sure as hell wouldn't.

I believe all humans are the same..I don't put these guys in some "subsection" of human being.
Personally, the only thing I find more unjust than this story IS the death penalty.
And this is just a small part of the argument against it, but what if someone is wrongly accused and put to death? You really think our lawful society should be one that kills human beings?

And you do realize that you can't just make some flash-bang law for these specific guys, without it pertaining to the rest of society?
Like "If you hit someone with a hammer 5 times, you get the chair"? But not if it's some lesser murder? Of course what they did was horrendous and incredibly shocking (and cruel). It doesn't mean they are rabid dogs that need to be put down, they are still HUMANS.
Societies aren't and shouldn't ever be ruled by emotion, and laws are not made to only deal with specific cases.

Mikey.
Jun 4th, 2009, 09:47 PM
Horrible! :o Couldn't watch anything past the first few whacks of the hammer.

Dominic
Jun 4th, 2009, 10:06 PM
I believe all humans are the same..I don't put these guys in some "subsection" of human being.
Personally, the only thing I find more unjust than this story IS the death penalty.
And this is just a small part of the argument against it, but what if someone is wrongly accused and put to death? You really think our lawful society should be one that kills human beings?

And you do realize that you can't just make some flash-bang law for these specific guys, without it pertaining to the rest of society?
Like "If you hit someone with a hammer 5 times, you get the chair"? But not if it's some lesser murder? Of course what they did was horrendous and incredibly shocking (and cruel). It doesn't mean they are rabid dogs that need to be put down, they are still HUMANS.
Societies aren't and shouldn't ever be ruled by emotion, and laws are not made to only deal with specific cases.

Hmm please be kidding.

vadin124
Jun 5th, 2009, 12:33 AM
I believe all humans are the same..I don't put these guys in some "subsection" of human being.
Personally, the only thing I find more unjust than this story IS the death penalty.
And this is just a small part of the argument against it, but what if someone is wrongly accused and put to death? You really think our lawful society should be one that kills human beings?

And you do realize that you can't just make some flash-bang law for these specific guys, without it pertaining to the rest of society?
Like "If you hit someone with a hammer 5 times, you get the chair"? But not if it's some lesser murder? Of course what they did was horrendous and incredibly shocking (and cruel). It doesn't mean they are rabid dogs that need to be put down, they are still HUMANS.
Societies aren't and shouldn't ever be ruled by emotion, and laws are not made to only deal with specific cases.

if they're humans then i'm certainly not a human...i'm not a member of the same race as those vile creatures...

and you are right, they are not rabid dogs...they are worse, since they find it HUMOROUS what they are doing, and unless i am mistaken rabid dogs do not...and you are right, they should not be put down, as that would be too easy...they should be incarcerated in a small, dirty, 2m^2 box for the rest of their life

i'm sorry but you cannot put these "things" in the same category as someone who has murdered say, as a result of careless driving...they're both the same crime, technically, but i don't even know why i am trying to justify just how different they are...

~Eclipsed~
Jun 5th, 2009, 04:12 AM
I believe all humans are the same..I don't put these guys in some "subsection" of human being.
Personally, the only thing I find more unjust than this story IS the death penalty.
And this is just a small part of the argument against it, but what if someone is wrongly accused and put to death? You really think our lawful society should be one that kills human beings?

You are way too forgiving and foolishly at that.

Like vadin has said, they are not human and If they are, I must not be a human either. Your question of being wrongly accused is irrelevant in this case. But to answer it, yes someone should be 100% found guilty before they are put to death. In this case that's not even a question because there is video proof of what they were doing.

No, I don't think our "lawful society" should be one that automatically resorts to the death penalty, but this case would definitely warrant it. Besides, why should people who have committed such a heinous crime be allowed to sit in jail the rest of their lives and waste taxpayers dollars?

And you do realize that you can't just make some flash-bang law for these specific guys, without it pertaining to the rest of society?
Like "If you hit someone with a hammer 5 times, you get the chair"? But not if it's some lesser murder? Of course what they did was horrendous and incredibly shocking (and cruel). It doesn't mean they are rabid dogs that need to be put down, they are still HUMANS.
Societies aren't and shouldn't ever be ruled by emotion, and laws are not made to only deal with specific cases.

Again, you are missing the point. They committed this murder 21 times or more! I mean i'm beginning to think you would think even someone as evil as Hitler should not recieve the death penalty. :unsure:

And yes, there are exceptions to every rule and rulings do vary case by case. But again, this is irrelevant because how could you have any type of empathy for people like this! Phew, I hope you don't get into the criminal justice field one day.

Lastly, you didn't answer my question. Would you be comfortable if these guys were released or escaped and were in an area near you?

~Eclipsed~
Jun 5th, 2009, 04:16 AM
if they're humans then i'm certainly not a human...i'm not a member of the same race as those vile creatures...

and you are right, they are not rabid dogs...they are worse, since they find it HUMOROUS what they are doing, and unless i am mistaken rabid dogs do not...and you are right, they should not be put down, as that would be too easy...they should be incarcerated in a small, dirty, 2m^2 box for the rest of their life

i'm sorry but you cannot put these "things" in the same category as someone who has murdered say, as a result of careless driving...they're both the same crime, technically, but i don't even know why i am trying to justify just how different they are...

Agreed on all points. I didn't think it would be ambigious to anyone how different this crime is to say the careless driving one you mentioned.

stevos
Jun 5th, 2009, 04:29 AM
Maybe if I actually watched the video, I would have such an emotional reaction to make me think that these guys are "not human". But I haven't.
And therefore I can still use my brain, instead of making bogus statements like "I am not the same species as these people".
Yes, you are, people do horrible things, and people are not born this way.
I am against killing. Which is why I am against killing criminals. There's a preventable death right there.

And wow, vadin, you are an idiot. Yes, sure, I'm comparing this to "careless driving". Of course. You should basically be the dean of logic school. Pretty sure I never brought up careless driving as a comparison, nice straw man though.

And Eclipsed, I am actually hoping to head into law, and I personally thank god people who make decisions for the public based on emotional reactions are not IN that position (such as yourself).

~Eclipsed~
Jun 5th, 2009, 05:04 AM
Maybe if I actually watched the video, I would have such an emotional reaction to make me think that these guys are "not human". But I haven't.
And therefore I can still use my brain, instead of making bogus statements like "I am not the same species as these people".
Yes, you are, people do horrible things, and people are not born this way.
I am against killing. Which is why I am against killing criminals. There's a preventable death right there.

And wow, vadin, you are an idiot. Yes, sure, I'm comparing this to "careless driving". Of course. You should basically be the dean of logic school. Pretty sure I never brought up careless driving as a comparison, nice straw man though.

And Eclipsed, I am actually hoping to head into law, and I personally thank god people who make decisions for the public based on emotional reactions are not IN that position (such as yourself).

First of all, you know my name so you could address me as so. :ras:

Anyway, you still have failed to answer my question so obviously you don't know how to answer for it or you know you would not be comfortable with someone like that in your area.

Also, I did not see the video so my judgement is not based off an emotional reaction. My reaction is one of wanting justice to be served. And i'm sorry, but there's nothing you can say to convince me that these guys are undeserving of the death penalty. I'm not gonna lie, it kinda scares me that you would go so soft on a person like this. Lastly, even though killing criminals is a preventable death does not make it a justified one.

:fingerscrossed: that law does not work out for you.

ArturoAce.
Jun 5th, 2009, 06:51 AM
oh my godd. that's so scary and disgusting. :sad:
i don't dare watch that. my goodness.
poor guyy. how can this be an internet craze as some man is being beatened to death. ?!?

kwilliams
Jun 5th, 2009, 07:49 AM
^ Me too. I would never, ever watch something like that. The thought alone is shocking, chilling and sickening enough.

vadin124
Jun 5th, 2009, 08:54 AM
Maybe if I actually watched the video, I would have such an emotional reaction to make me think that these guys are "not human". But I haven't.
And therefore I can still use my brain, instead of making bogus statements like "I am not the same species as these people".
Yes, you are, people do horrible things, and people are not born this way.
I am against killing. Which is why I am against killing criminals. There's a preventable death right there.

And wow, vadin, you are an idiot. Yes, sure, I'm comparing this to "careless driving". Of course. You should basically be the dean of logic school. Pretty sure I never brought up careless driving as a comparison, nice straw man though.

And Eclipsed, I am actually hoping to head into law, and I personally thank god people who make decisions for the public based on emotional reactions are not IN that position (such as yourself).

resorting to insults, classic case of an argument lost...

i can't bring myself to watch the video personally, but i have seen a couple of short clip thingys (pictures that are also videos at the same time, can't think of what they're called), and they get across the message pretty clear in my head

but you stated in your first post, or you insinuated at least, that these things should not be treated differently to someone who had committed a lesser murder...i just gave an example of a "lesser murder", so let's not get petty stevos :rolleyes:

stevos
Jun 5th, 2009, 01:55 PM
resorting to insults, classic case of an argument lost...

i can't bring myself to watch the video personally, but i have seen a couple of short clip thingys (pictures that are also videos at the same time, can't think of what they're called), and they get across the message pretty clear in my head

but you stated in your first post, or you insinuated at least, that these things should not be treated differently to someone who had committed a lesser murder...i just gave an example of a "lesser murder", so let's not get petty stevos :rolleyes:
First of all, sorry for the insult, I was really high when I wrote that last post. :p

Okay, just to clear some things up, I didn't mean they shouldn't be TREATED differently than a lesser murder. I just meant, murder is murder. These guys sound more like serial killers. In Canada, we still don't put serial killers to death.
What I meant with the lesser murder comment was that someone who kills someone with malicious intent is a murderer, and should (and hopefully will) be punished. And that's what these men are, murderers. Careless driving is not with intent, and therefore already has a lesser sentence than murder. So that's why your argument about that didn't make sense anyway, it ALREADY has a lesser sentence.

I meant, you know, someone who kills someone with intent deserves life in prison. These guys deserve 21 sentences of life in prison.
My point, essentially, is that not a single human being could do anything that would deserve the death penalty, in my eyes. There is always another way. We aren't living in Old Testament times, "Eye for an eye" is a barbaric principle.

And Jason (I never know if people want me telling everyone on the board their name), I am being somewhat emotionless in my argument, yes. That doesn't mean I'm not horrified and disgusted by these guys, so don't be all "troubled" about me treating them softly (although I really don't think life in prison is all that enviable).
In regards to them living somewhere near me, in my neighbourhood, well that wouldn't be happening tomorrow. You do realize life in prison, although most times not actually "life", is a LONG time. And afterwards, people are placed in remedial programs, and are slowly reintegrated.
But I also wouldn't want to live in the same neighbourhood as a burglar, but does that mean I want that person put to death? Of course not.

These men obviously have serious psychological issues, just like someone who steals always has many factors which lead to them committing crime. Sorry, criminals aren't just spawned in some factory, extenuating circumstances lead to crime. These guys just have a LOT of problems.
Wow, I'm shocked there are so many advocates of the death penalty on here. Let me ask you now, what is the necessary amount of "horrible action" that someone must do in order to deserve the death penalty? You can't have it both ways, sorry.

~Eclipsed~
Jun 5th, 2009, 02:55 PM
And Jason (I never know if people want me telling everyone on the board their name), I am being somewhat emotionless in my argument, yes. That doesn't mean I'm not horrified and disgusted by these guys, so don't be all "troubled" about me treating them softly (although I really don't think life in prison is all that enviable).
In regards to them living somewhere near me, in my neighbourhood, well that wouldn't be happening tomorrow. You do realize life in prison, although most times not actually "life", is a LONG time. And afterwards, people are placed in remedial programs, and are slowly reintegrated.
But I also wouldn't want to live in the same neighbourhood as a burglar, but does that mean I want that person put to death? Of course not.

These men obviously have serious psychological issues, just like someone who steals always has many factors which lead to them committing crime. Sorry, criminals aren't just spawned in some factory, extenuating circumstances lead to crime. These guys just have a LOT of problems.
Wow, I'm shocked there are so many advocates of the death penalty on here. Let me ask you now, what is the necessary amount of "horrible action" that someone must do in order to deserve the death penalty? You can't have it both ways, sorry.

Yes, I do know what life in prison means, but I was just expoloring other possibilities such as if they escaped. Although, I know i'm getting a little too hypothetical with that. Like most people you did say you wouldn't be comfortable with these people in or around your area and that's the point I was trying to make. They took away the lives of 21+ innocent people, so why should they be given the chance to live when the people whose lives they took away were robbed of their chance. And you say, they would eventually be integrated back into society if they don't actually serve their whole term in prison. But again, WHY oh why should they be given the opportunity to be allowed back into society. Sorry, that just baffles me.

Some of your analogies make me laugh to be honest. :lol: Ok, yes I or anyone else wouldn't feel comfortable with a known burglar in my area, but that isn't even on the same scale as these murders. They could take away my material possessions anyday. That pales in comparison to being worried about being brutally murdered by a couple of guys who get off on it.

I agree that these men are not born that way or manufactured as you would like to put it, but of what relevance is that? :confused: Really?, I'm actually shocked that you're shocked that there are so many advocates of the death penalty here.

I can't even begin to try to answer your last question because there are so many stipulations and variations of case by case that there is no one set of terms that could or should make up what will result in the death penalty.

I think i'm pretty much done debating this because obviously i'm for the death penalty in an extreme case like this and you're all about allowing the monsters to live. So nothing more said will go anywhere, i suppose.

stevos
Jun 5th, 2009, 04:12 PM
Yes, I do know what life in prison means, but I was just expoloring other possibilities such as if they escaped. Although, I know i'm getting a little too hypothetical with that. Like most people you did say you wouldn't be comfortable with these people in or around your area and that's the point I was trying to make. They took away the lives of 21+ innocent people, so why should they be given the chance to live when the people whose lives they took away were robbed of their chance. And you say, they would eventually be integrated back into society if they don't actually serve their whole term in prison. But again, WHY oh why should they be given the opportunity to be allowed back into society. Sorry, that just baffles me.

Some of your analogies make me laugh to be honest. :lol: Ok, yes I or anyone else wouldn't feel comfortable with a known burglar in my area, but that isn't even on the same scale as these murders. They could take away my material possessions anyday. That pales in comparison to being worried about being brutally murdered by a couple of guys who get off on it.

I agree that these men are not born that way or manufactured as you would like to put it, but of what relevance is that? :confused: Really?, I'm actually shocked that you're shocked that there are so many advocates of the death penalty here.

I can't even begin to try to answer your last question because there are so many stipulations and variations of case by case that there is no one set of terms that could or should make up what will result in the death penalty.

I think i'm pretty much done debating this because obviously i'm for the death penalty in an extreme case like this and you're all about allowing the monsters to live. So nothing more said will go anywhere, i suppose.

I will agree with you on one thing: Yes, my analogies have not been up to par lately, blame the pot. :speakles:

And no, we probably won't ever agree. I don't care who it is, I'm not going to advocate an institution which kills. I'm sorry, I just don't see any criminals as lesser human beings who can just be tossed out with the trash because they are inconvenient.
No, I probably wouldn't want them on my street, but I'd rather they be alive on my street than dead on the electric chair.

vadin124
Jun 5th, 2009, 04:41 PM
I will agree with you on one thing: Yes, my analogies have not been up to par lately, blame the pot. :speakles:

And no, we probably won't ever agree. I don't care who it is, I'm not going to advocate an institution which kills. I'm sorry, I just don't see any criminals as lesser human beings who can just be tossed out with the trash because they are inconvenient.
No, I probably wouldn't want them on my street, but I'd rather they be alive on my street than dead on the electric chair.

well as for your previous post, I get your point about murder with malicious intent...

I am with eclipsed though...although I do not normally advocate the death penalty, in extreme circumstances like this, I understand why people would want it to be enforced.

Personally, I think the death penalty is too easy, and if their mental state is anything to go by judging from the humour they've found from killing people, they probably wouldn't care anyway.

What they need, is a life time of complete reclusion, NEVER to be allowed back into society until the day they die...they should have zero luxuries, the bare minimum food/water, bare minimum daylight, etc. etc.

It is fair enough that you have your own opinion, but I think you would be the only one to uphold the point of view I outlined from your post

olivero
Jun 5th, 2009, 04:55 PM
I don't know what's worse? The killing or the fact that they record it to show/watch it later...trully sick.
And honestly put some warning it the OP because even your description is pretty distrubing.

Dominic
Jun 5th, 2009, 05:16 PM
I think they deserve the worst treatment possible, so honestly I would agree with any punishment ppl might come up with, such as death penalty or anything else.

~Cherry*Blossom~
Jun 5th, 2009, 05:24 PM
I just don't understand how anyone can watch the video. I'm a huge fan of horror films and the gory scenes really don't phase me.

However, seeing a person being tortured and brutally murdered for real is just disgusting to me. I could never bring myself to watch something so hideous. I don't know how people can.

stevos
Jun 5th, 2009, 06:06 PM
I just don't understand how anyone can watch the video. I'm a huge fan of horror films and the gory scenes really don't phase me.

However, seeing a person being tortured and brutally murdered for real is just disgusting to me. I could never bring myself to watch something so hideous. I don't know how people can.

I totally agree.
I mean, even the title of it alludes to the shock of 2 Girls 1 Cup, but it's nowhere even in the same realm of just another internet "shock video". This is someone's life coming to an end, and it's reality.
I don't think I'd even be able to see a picture (if I can help it).

Serenita
Jun 5th, 2009, 06:19 PM
Your description is TOO graphic. I felt like I was right there in the room watching the murder with front row seats :sobbing:.

This is horrendus. How far off can people be to do this kind of thing? I really don't know what to say... maybe the OP should be banned for subjecting us to this story in the first place :tape:. Ugh... I'll never read another post by him again... who knows what other unspeakable horrors he'll decided to throw out at random.
i have to agree with marshmallow, this is just sick and really wasnt expecting something like this.
this was way TOO Graphic. :o

Joana
Jun 6th, 2009, 01:57 AM
No, I probably wouldn't want them on my street, but I'd rather they be alive on my street than dead on the electric chair.

I think you'd probably change your mind if you actually saw them move in on your street.

I thought this was some kind of a Internet urban legend or something, but I googled it and these killings really happened. It just defies all belief. I think people are mostly aware of the risks everyday life brings such as car accidents, burglaries, sickness and accidents, but such senseless murders are just beyond any comprehension. Needless to say, I'm not going to watch the video.

I don't want to get into the debate about capital punishment since I don't have a clear stand on it, especially not after hearing of cases like this, but I do really believe that laws need to be stricter. In same cases there's just absolutely no room for liberal BS like "reintegration" or such.

Direwolf
Jun 6th, 2009, 02:30 AM
I believe all humans are the same..I don't put these guys in some "subsection" of human being.
Personally, the only thing I find more unjust than this story IS the death penalty.
And this is just a small part of the argument against it, but what if someone is wrongly accused and put to death? You really think our lawful society should be one that kills human beings?

And you do realize that you can't just make some flash-bang law for these specific guys, without it pertaining to the rest of society?
Like "If you hit someone with a hammer 5 times, you get the chair"? But not if it's some lesser murder? Of course what they did was horrendous and incredibly shocking (and cruel). It doesn't mean they are rabid dogs that need to be put down, they are still HUMANS.
Societies aren't and shouldn't ever be ruled by emotion, and laws are not made to only deal with specific cases.

ahhh
the intelligence oozing
:hearts::hearts::hearts:

if they're humans then i'm certainly not a human...i'm not a member of the same race as those vile creatures...

and you are right, they are not rabid dogs...they are worse, since they find it HUMOROUS what they are doing, and unless i am mistaken rabid dogs do not...and you are right, they should not be put down, as that would be too easy...they should be incarcerated in a small, dirty, 2m^2 box for the rest of their life

i'm sorry but you cannot put these "things" in the same category as someone who has murdered say, as a result of careless driving...they're both the same crime, technically, but i don't even know why i am trying to justify just how different they are...

homosapiens sweet...
we live in the same world as these
terrorists and saints...
people dont just become who they are
in one click...
i bet these kids werent brought up properly...
please dont blame them...

there are more options than to take another life for life

I just don't understand how anyone can watch the video. I'm a huge fan of horror films and the gory scenes really don't phase me.

However, seeing a person being tortured and brutally murdered for real is just disgusting to me. I could never bring myself to watch something so hideous. I don't know how people can.

hearing it makes me sick...
i guess its just unexpected
thats why

Joana
Jun 6th, 2009, 02:35 AM
i bet these kids werent brought up properly...
please dont blame them...


Yeah, let's blame the society. Which actually means not to blame anyone.

There has to be personal responsibility. Loads of people are not "brought up properly" and yet they don't go around killing for fun.

Dominic
Jun 6th, 2009, 03:36 AM
homosapiens sweet...
we live in the same world as these
terrorists and saints...
people dont just become who they are
in one click...
i bet these kids werent brought up properly...
please dont blame them...

there are more options than to take another life for life

:eek:I'm a little disturbed by your comments.

HRHoliviasmith
Jun 6th, 2009, 04:33 AM
Yeah, let's blame the society. Which actually means not to blame anyone.

There has to be personal responsibility. Loads of people are not "brought up properly" and yet they don't go around killing for fun.

thank you.

Marshmallow
Jun 6th, 2009, 11:56 AM
homosapiens sweet...
we live in the same world as these
terrorists and saints...
people dont just become who they are
in one click...
i bet these kids werent brought up properly...
please dont blame them...
there are more options than to take another life for life


99% :bigclap:

Yeah, let's blame the society. Which actually means not to blame anyone.

There has to be personal responsibility. Loads of people are not "brought up properly" and yet they don't go around killing for fun.

:eek:I'm a little disturbed by your comments.

But g00dby33 (:hug:) has a good point, one of great maturity. Personally though I'd edit what g00dby33 wrote to read: "lets not completely dehumanise them" instead of "lets not blame them". Rationale being; These men didn't come out of their mother's wombs hammer weilding. It's more likely than not that somewhere along the road of development something went wrong. Could be trauma, could be a long period of physical and emotional abuse etc. It's hard to hear I guess, but I think somewhere along the way life just caused them to become what they have. In that way it becomes hard to burn them according to 'personal responsibility' when their lives caused them to have a warped sense of reality. The story then reads as a case of 2 sets of victims. Idealogically, It becomes hard for me to then support death penalty looking at things like that.

BUT... I'm not 100% with Stevos because I can see the use of the death penalty on practical grounds. The amount of energy and time required to rehabilitate these men, to even bring them to a place of understanding their crimes and feeling resmorseful - let alone putting them in a position to be ready to go back into society would be enormous. Further just housing these men in Jail takes up a lot of funding and resources that could be better used rejuvinating deprived areas and improving child services which might go some way in preventing people becoming for far gone mentally like these men. Also, if these men are basically free roaming psychopaths they are probably suffering themselves regularly. And since too few are willing to help them, death penalty in "humane way" - puts them out of their own misery and protects society. Put them to sleep as you would suffering animals.

Just my opinion anyway.

InsideOut.
Jun 6th, 2009, 05:30 PM
I watched 40 seconds and couldn't go on. I was covering the computer screen with one hand and my eyes with the other. The moment they zoomed in close on the man's face, I closed the window.:hysteric: I don't even know how I held on for so long. :sobbing: Totally inhuman.

HRHoliviasmith
Jun 6th, 2009, 05:33 PM
that video seriously needs to be taken off the internet. i really wish this were possible. i thank God that that i have no desire to watch it. just fucking crazy.

youizahoe
Jun 6th, 2009, 05:49 PM
Is it even worse than the guy getting beheaded???

Joana
Jun 6th, 2009, 05:53 PM
that video seriously needs to be taken off the internet. i really wish this were possible. i thank God that that i have no desire to watch it. just fucking crazy.

Apparently the Ukrainian government tried to do it but soon they realized it was pointless since as soon as you take if off one place, it pops up somewhere else.

Is it even worse than the guy getting beheaded???

I don't know. Let's watch both and compare. Not.

youizahoe
Jun 6th, 2009, 05:55 PM
I'm not watching it anyway. I saw this true movie once, a few 14 year old kids in the balkans killing adult people in very brutal ways, they were sued and eventually released :scared:

~Eclipsed~
Jun 7th, 2009, 03:56 PM
I will agree with you on one thing: Yes, my analogies have not been up to par lately, blame the pot. :speakles:

And no, we probably won't ever agree. I don't care who it is, I'm not going to advocate an institution which kills. I'm sorry, I just don't see any criminals as lesser human beings who can just be tossed out with the trash because they are inconvenient.
No, I probably wouldn't want them on my street, but I'd rather they be alive on my street than dead on the electric chair.

Wow, that is just absolute :bs:

Like Joana said, you definitely wouldn't be saying that if they actually moved onto your street.

I guess the pot is deteriorating your logic as well...

Marshmallow
Jun 7th, 2009, 06:18 PM
Wow, that is just absolute :bs:

Like Joana said, you definitely wouldn't be saying that if they actually moved onto your street.

I guess the pot is deteriorating your logic as well...

:spit: Ouch! :tape:

stevos
Jun 8th, 2009, 05:29 AM
99% :bigclap:


BUT... I'm not 100% with Stevos because I can see the use of the death penalty on practical grounds. The amount of energy and time required to rehabilitate these men, to even bring them to a place of understanding their crimes and feeling resmorseful - let alone putting them in a position to be ready to go back into society would be enormous. Further just housing these men in Jail takes up a lot of funding and resources that could be better used rejuvinating deprived areas and improving child services which might go some way in preventing people becoming for far gone mentally like these men. Also, if these men are basically free roaming psychopaths they are probably suffering themselves regularly. And since too few are willing to help them, death penalty in "humane way" - puts them out of their own misery and protects society. Put them to sleep as you would suffering animals.

Just my opinion anyway.

You can WHAT?
So that's how things work now, practicality is the answer?
My god, with that logic, people with extremely debilitating diseases, who cost so much in health care for our society, should really just be put down. Because that's the most practical thing to do, isn't it?

I know you guys like to immediately envision these guys as inhuman, but sorry, we all come from a mother's womb, we're all human. Practicality, when we're talking about human lives? Seriously?

And Eclipsed, seriously to you too? So you just lowered yourself to an insult which I've already used against myself in some way to gain leverage in this argument? Like, hi, I already used that. It's kinda lost its sting.
And no, I think I'd be okay with a man who's been in jail for 60 + years getting out in the late part of this century, so please stop assuming what I'd "actually do". If he has the ability to live on my street, and he has paid his debt to society, he will be placed into reintegration programs. Just because someone isn't slaughtered at the hands of our government doesn't mean they are just left to roam!

young_gunner913
Jun 8th, 2009, 09:30 AM
i havent seen this one but i just watched 1 guy and 1 cup and i dont know if theres a thread about it but ohmyfuckinggoddness. im scarred. my eyes feel violated. :bigcry:

~Eclipsed~
Jun 8th, 2009, 02:11 PM
i havent seen this one but i just watched 1 guy and 1 cup and i dont know if theres a thread about it but ohmyfuckinggoddness. im scarred. my eyes feel violated. :bigcry:

Here you go: :)

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=381332

~Eclipsed~
Jun 8th, 2009, 02:36 PM
And Eclipsed, seriously to you too? So you just lowered yourself to an insult which I've already used against myself in some way to gain leverage in this argument? Like, hi, I already used that. It's kinda lost its sting.
And no, I think I'd be okay with a man who's been in jail for 60 + years getting out in the late part of this century, so please stop assuming what I'd "actually do". If he has the ability to live on my street, and he has paid his debt to society, he will be placed into reintegration programs. Just because someone isn't slaughtered at the hands of our government doesn't mean they are just left to roam!

Hmm i originally wasn't aiming for an insult(since I wasn't making up that you do pot or anything), but I guess my statement did come off kind of rude. I did recieve good reps for it though so I guess it didn't lose all of it's sting. I'll blame it on seeing Kathy Griffin the other night (which was amazing). :cool: Wow, way off topic.

Ok now you shift from bad analogies to putting words in my mouth. When did I ask if you would be ok If you would be ok with this being in your area after 60 + years jail time? Like I said before, I meant If they espcaped or even served a shorter sentence. But that idea isn't even the main point of the argument, so i'll let it go. And do you really think reintegration programs would work for people like this? And I just don't know how you feel that they could pay their debt to society after any amount of years in prison. That disturbs me.

Polikarpov
Jun 8th, 2009, 02:48 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnepropetrovsk_maniacs#Murder_videos_and_photograp hs

That's just sick. And media reports says that the plan was to make 40 videos to be sold to website?

stevos
Jun 8th, 2009, 02:54 PM
Hmm i originally wasn't aiming for an insult(since I wasn't making up that you do pot or anything), but I guess my statement did come off kind of rude. I did recieve good reps for it though so I guess it didn't lose all of it's sting. I'll blame it on seeing Kathy Griffin the other night (which was amazing). :cool: Wow, way off topic.

Ok now you shift from bad analogies to putting words in my mouth. When did I ask if you would be ok If you would be ok with this being in your area after 60 + years jail time? Like I said before, I meant If they espcaped or even served a shorter sentence. But that idea isn't even the main point of the argument, so i'll let it go. And do you really think reintegration programs would work for people like this? And I just don't know how you feel that they could pay their debt to society after any amount of years in prison. That disturbs me.

Enjoy your goodreps. I wasn't referring to what the peanut gallery of wtaworld thought of your insult though, but no matter.

I'm sorry, I don't plan to live in an area where escaped convicts plan to start up their life again. Crime exists. You can't eliminate it, and you can't exterminate it, so the killing of any individual in the name of deterring crime is bullshit. It has been proven to not be deterrent at all.

I didn't put words in your mouth, I explained my position so that YOU couldn't put words in mine. Murderers don't just escape from prison everyday, and serial killers do not typically get lenient sentences.

HRHoliviasmith
Jun 8th, 2009, 03:01 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnepropetrovsk_maniacs#Murder_videos_and_photograp hs

That's just sick. And media reports says that the plan was to make 40 videos to be sold to website?

9 years!?!? 9 years?!?!? :bigcry: :rolleyes: :sad:

FrenchY52
Jun 8th, 2009, 03:17 PM
Nooooooooooooooooooooo





No

Joana
Jun 8th, 2009, 04:40 PM
and serial killers do not typically get lenient sentences.

I'd say 9 years is pretty lenient. I don't think there's any difference if the guy "only" recorded the murders and didn't actively participate in killings, he's just as responsible - hell, in that case Charles Manson shouldn't have been convicted at all, since he wasn't even at the crime scenes. :rolleyes:
Also, generally speaking, murderers often get away far too easily. I don't know how it's done in US or Canada, but over here they often get out after 10 years or even less. And then they kill again. It's happened far too often. I also read about a case in Norway where some maniac tried to kill a woman, she miraculously managed to escape and survive and he got 3 (!!!) years in prison and was supposed to be released after two, until the woman kicked up a fuss about it. It's just wrong. It's travesty of justice.

And I strongly believe that it's impossible to "pay your debt to society" in some cases, but I guess we'll have to disagree about it.

stevos
Jun 8th, 2009, 06:31 PM
I'd say 9 years is pretty lenient. I don't think there's any difference if the guy "only" recorded the murders and didn't actively participate in killings, he's just as responsible - hell, in that case Charles Manson shouldn't have been convicted at all, since he wasn't even at the crime scenes. :rolleyes:
Also, generally speaking, murderers often get away far too easily. I don't know how it's done in US or Canada, but over here they often get out after 10 years or even less. And then they kill again. It's happened far too often. I also read about a case in Norway where some maniac tried to kill a woman, she miraculously managed to escape and survive and he got 3 (!!!) years in prison and was supposed to be released after two, until the woman kicked up a fuss about it. It's just wrong. It's travesty of justice.

And I strongly believe that it's impossible to "pay your debt to society" in some cases, but I guess we'll have to disagree about it.

Okay, that typically does not happen in Canada. And definitely not in America. I mean, you can get out from a so-called "lesser murder", or less serious offences, after maybe 15-20 years. But if you're a serial killer, you are NOT going to be getting out for a long time. You are given consecutive life sentences. Essentially, you're in there for good.

The 9 years thing is iffy, I agree. But law is law, and if he didn't kill, he didn't kill.

Also, do you see Charles Manson out roaming your streets? No. He is still incarcerated, completely away from the world, in a California jail. I don't have to answer "would I want him on my streets" because he is not, and will not be, on my streets. MAYBE when he's a decrepid 80 year-old man. I still somehow doubt that.

And yeah, sometimes you can't "repay" a debt like 40 years. But I also don't think being put to death is even close to adequate repayment, anyway. So that argument is moot.

Marshmallow
Jun 8th, 2009, 07:19 PM
You can WHAT?
So that's how things work now, practicality is the answer?
My god, with that logic, people with extremely debilitating diseases, who cost so much in health care for our society, should really just be put down. Because that's the most practical thing to do, isn't it?

I know you guys like to immediately envision these guys as inhuman, but sorry, we all come from a mother's womb, we're all human. Practicality, when we're talking about human lives? Seriously?

:speakles: ...

Well, having just learnt that you are some sort of Cannabis addicted drug fiend (:tape:) I won't hold the fact that you clearly didn't read my whole post against you. 'Practical' may not have been the right word, perhaps replace it with 'I can see the Utilitarian Value of the death penalty' to get a fuller meaning of what I was trying to say.

I personally don't have a fixed position on the death penalty, Euthanasia etc... but don't think you're giving the complexity of the issue enough respect; ideas about what death is come in to play a little bit, and issues around success rates of rehabilitation, Justice, and prevention over punishment to list but a few. But I DO understand where you're coming from because that was my stance for a long time. And I think the passion you're showing for this topic is great, but can't help but feel it's a bit naive. Sorry.

And I just don't want to get into this topic, just don't have the energy or care for it. :D

stevos
Jun 8th, 2009, 07:53 PM
:speakles: ...

Well, having just learnt that you are some sort of Cannabis addicted drug fiend (:tape:) I won't hold the fact that you clearly didn't read my whole post against you. 'Practical' may not have been the right word, perhaps replace it with 'I can see the Utilitarian Value of the death penalty' to get a fuller meaning of what I was trying to say.

I personally don't have a fixed position on the death penalty, Euthanasia etc... but don't think you're giving the complexity of the issue enough respect; ideas about what death is come in to play a little bit, and issues around success rates of rehabilitation, Justice, and prevention over punishment to list but a few. But I DO understand where you're coming from because that was my stance for a long time. And I think the passion you're showing for this topic is great, but can't help but feel it's a bit naive. Sorry.

And I just don't want to get into this topic, just don't have the energy or care for it. :D

Well I basically base my entire argument on a handful of essays by extremely well-respected philosophers who I would hardly call naive, but sure, if you want to attack my argument in that way, then sure.

And you can't be addicted to cannabis. Please stop being a douchebag and just use the rational arguments that I'm trying to give you, instead of resorting to those jabs.

Marshmallow
Jun 8th, 2009, 10:18 PM
Well I basically base my entire argument on a handful of essays by extremely well-respected philosophers who I would hardly call naive, but sure, if you want to attack my argument in that way, then sure.

And you can't be addicted to cannabis. Please stop being a douchebag and just use the rational arguments that I'm trying to give you, instead of resorting to those jabs.

:rolleyes:

Firstly, basing your arguments of Ďrespectedí philosophers doesn't mean shit. If you are in academia you should know that for any one stand point there's always a plethora of opposing often substantiated (somehow) arguments. Especially on a big topic like this one.

But moving on, what rational arguments did you really me? My initial post, which was one supporting g00dby33 who was in turn supporting YOU, was a brief outlining of my personal views; simply explicating that I could see both sides of the argument Ėthereby implying that I have no fixed standpoint (and don't really wish to pushed into defending one side)! You then, with your selective blindness/stupidity/ or self-focus after spotting your name, decided to focus on a phrase without seeming to give any consideration to the remaining content. You gave me a pretty useless response reiterating what I wrote in the first half of my post that you removed. You ran with the phrase, but didnít bother to address my supporting explanation. That seems pretty fundamental step to having a proper discussion about things.

I just canít be bothered to get into this, least of all because you seem insistent on arguing rather than having a constructive discussion. I just donít have time for that or you, and I regret wasting this much time already. This is an issue of subjectivity for heavens sake.

BTW, you can get addicted to cannabis. I donít know if research has proven otherwise, but then I have an anomalous friend who IS addicted to cannabis, has been for years and demonstrated symptoms of paranoid schizophrenia that is associated with excessive cannabis smoking Ė by some studies.

~Eclipsed~
Jun 9th, 2009, 04:36 PM
Enjoy your goodreps. I wasn't referring to what the peanut gallery of wtaworld thought of your insult though, but no matter.

I'm sorry, I don't plan to live in an area where escaped convicts plan to start up their life again. Crime exists. You can't eliminate it, and you can't exterminate it, so the killing of any individual in the name of deterring crime is bullshit. It has been proven to not be deterrent at all.

I didn't put words in your mouth, I explained my position so that YOU couldn't put words in mine. Murderers don't just escape from prison everyday, and serial killers do not typically get lenient sentences.

And then you go onto give me a goodrep? It sounded like more of a badrep, but hey I guess it's kinda useless to figure you out at this point. I bet if more people sided with you on this issue, you wouldn't be referring to them as "the peanut gallery", but I suppose it's fun biasing things to your favor.

It has been proven? Hmm has it been proven to be unsuccessful as a means of justice in a case like this?

Once again, I never said I thought murderers get lenient sentences, so once again you are putting words in my mouth. I'm with Marshmallow, this isn't going anywhere because this is subjective and it is almost impossible to get a point across to you without you putting your own spin on it. So i'm over trying to debate this with you.

stevos
Jun 9th, 2009, 05:44 PM
And then you go onto give me a goodrep? It sounded like more of a badrep, but hey I guess it's kinda useless to figure you out at this point. I bet if more people sided with you on this issue, you wouldn't be referring to them as "the peanut gallery", but I suppose it's fun biasing things to your favor.

It has been proven? Hmm has it been proven to be unsuccessful as a means of justice in a case like this?

Once again, I never said I thought murderers get lenient sentences, so once again you are putting words in my mouth. I'm with Marshmallow, this isn't going anywhere because this is subjective and it is almost impossible to get a point across to you without you putting your own spin on it. So i'm over trying to debate this with you.

Have you ever been in an argument before?
Because this is an argument. Not sure why that is a taboo, but I believe what I believe and since I believe that, I have trouble understanding the logic behind your points, which is why I'm challenging you to back your opposing views up. I'm not trying to spin things here, I want to see if you can logically support your own opposing view that it is okay for a government to be responsible for the death of its citizens.

Are you alright with cruel or unusual punishment? Should someone who cuts off someone's hand also have their hand cut off? Wouldn't that seem "cruel and unusual"?
I don't see how it changes in terms of actually killing someone.

Oh, and that first paragraph of yours, what I meant (and what I had hoped that I had explained by this point) was that when I referred to the "sting" of your insult, I meant that it didn't "sting" in terms of my reaction to it. I can't speak for the multitude of posters who were giving you goodreps, but if you seem funnier to them now, then congrats! But I was never referring to them.

Capital punishment has been proven to be unsuccessful in deterring future murderers.
(States that have taken away their capital punishment laws have not seen their murder rates go up or down, and are still similar to other states who have capital punishment still, in one example of how that doesn't work).

I never said that you said they get lenient sentences. But when you referred to them "being on your street", that would have to refer to a lenient sentence that allowed them to access my street. This is obvious! You implied that their time that they served would be short enough for me to be around when they got out, and for them to be able-bodied, still-criminal citizens who would move onto my street. Of course I don't want this. But that WOULDN'T HAPPEN because serial killers are not given lenient sentences. There, all those words came from my mouth. That is my point, that they do not typically escape from maximum security prisons, and that they are not let out for many, many years (if at ALL).
So why would I worry about them moving on my street, which up to this point seemed to be the big argument against my view.

Marshmallow, get over yourself. I did read your entire post.
I bolded the "practicality" part because I think any consideration of practicality in an argument about the lives of human beings is inherently wrong, which is why I was upset about it. The rest of your post wasn't all that discussion-worthy. And even if we did look at it from a utilitarian view, I have read arguments that have stated it would actually bring about more pain and suffering, for the family members of the accused (who actually know when their family member is going to die, rather than the victim of the crime who had it appear suddenly and less emotional issues would come about before their death to their family members). Also, the aspect of wrongful convictions almost makes it hard to even argue about this point, because any person that is later found innocent, but was put to death, is so heartbreaking and unjust that I can hardly stand it. And there ARE examples of this.

I'm coming at this from a friendly perspective, just so you know. I'm not trying to attack anyone here, just looking for debate. None of this was intended to be offensive or insulting. I'd appreciate the same in return from now on (regardless of whoever said what in the past.)

Wiggly
Jun 10th, 2009, 03:27 AM
Okay, that typically does not happen in Canada. And definitely not in America. I mean, you can get out from a so-called "lesser murder", or less serious offences, after maybe 15-20 years. But if you're a serial killer, you are NOT going to be getting out for a long time. You are given consecutive life sentences. Essentially, you're in there for good.

I would it's rather easy for someone to get out after 10 years in jail.
Especially if your crime didn't get a lot of media coverage. :tape:

Karla Holmolka, perhaps the most famous famous criminal ever in Canada, got 12 years. And she's the craziest bitch to have ever lived on Canadian soil.

stevos
Jun 10th, 2009, 01:54 PM
I would it's rather easy for someone to get out after 10 years in jail.
Especially if your crime didn't get a lot of media coverage. :tape:

Karla Holmolka, perhaps the most famous famous criminal ever in Canada, got 12 years. And she's the craziest bitch to have ever lived on Canadian soil.

You clearly don't understand how that trial worked, so I'm not going to explain it for you.
Karla would've never gotten the death penalty anyway...but you don't have to be a lawyer to know why she got such a short sentence.

Mforensic
Jun 10th, 2009, 09:38 PM
Bottom-line......these videos show the down fall of society

Direwolf
Jun 10th, 2009, 11:45 PM
Bottom-line......these videos show the down fall of society

bottom-line
more talk about preventing this rather than what the person will get after this...
:lol::lol::lol:

Edward.
Jun 11th, 2009, 12:30 PM
I heard about this video a long time ago, but I have always refused to watch it. Its essentially a snuff movie.

Marshmallow
Jun 11th, 2009, 11:21 PM
You clearly don't understand how that trial worked, so I'm not going to explain it for you.
Karla would've never gotten the death penalty anyway...but you don't have to be a lawyer to know why she got such a short sentence.

Why not respond politely? :shrug: But anyway... since this topic is still up.


Marshmallow, get over yourself. I did read your entire post.
I bolded the "practicality" part because I think any consideration of practicality in an argument about the lives of human beings is inherently wrong, which is why I was upset about it. The rest of your post wasn't all that discussion-worthy. And even if we did look at it from a utilitarian view, I have read arguments that have stated it would actually bring about more pain and suffering, for the family members of the accused (who actually know when their family member is going to die, rather than the victim of the crime who had it appear suddenly and less emotional issues would come about before their death to their family members). Also, the aspect of wrongful convictions almost makes it hard to even argue about this point, because any person that is later found innocent, but was put to death, is so heartbreaking and unjust that I can hardly stand it. And there ARE examples of this.

I'm coming at this from a friendly perspective, just so you know. I'm not trying to attack anyone here, just looking for debate. None of this was intended to be offensive or insulting. I'd appreciate the same in return from now on (regardless of whoever said what in the past.)

Why didnít you phrase your response to me this way before, instead of hurling a probably drug fuelled, -Iím on the verge of insanity- type diatribe?

But anyway, Iíll do my best given my limited time period on here to explain my Ďpracticality/utilitarianí stance. [For the record I think that family pain point is pretty ridiculous. The victims family probably never had a chance to say goodbye to their beloved, where as the killerís family have enough time. But value judgements on grief are a topic on their own].

So, firstly I write this with the following type of criminals in mind: The men in the video described in this topic; Ted Bundy types Ė could talk about remorse but would probably have been a danger to any woman even in his 80s; and those criminals deemed SO dangerous they are in compulsory solitary confinement as they are a danger to anyone who is around them. These being my ideal candidates for the death penalty.

Secondly, I think my view on the whole life death phenomena is probably different from yours and many others. In my view/understanding, when someone is killed there isnít a choir of weeping angels, nor is there killer marked for a place in ďhellĒ or have a karma cross to bear into their next life. When someone/thing dies, the non-physical essence part of them/soul/consciousness exists eternally and so sooner or later will emerge again probably on earth to have another life experience again. Whomever/whatever dies and however they die, the ultimate value and meaning is the same, death is just a transition. So to me life and death situations donít always fit neatly into right or wrong issues. Taking human thinking out of the issue, when I see lions eating an a young ill elephant alive (you can still see it blinking while the lion group devour itís insides), killer whales head-butting a whale cub to death not even eating the thing in the end and other bizarre but natural events I realise that not everything in this worlds adds together to make sense and fit neatly into a nice package. The world isnít about things fitting neatly into seemingly obvious categories like right and wrong.

Bearing these things in mind, instead of looking at the death penalty as a right and wrong issue, we could look at this as a Prevention V Punishment issue. Theoretically speaking, a choice is to be made between essentially housing the men aforementioned who are likely never going to receive the rehabilitation they need, until they die in prison without little to no quality of life at a cost to the state OR using this money in improving h child services and related facilities to reduce in some way the frequency of occurrence of these abused and tortured children who end up with warped and murderous tendencies. If not that, then using that money to improve healthcare, free school meals or something.

Essentially money spent on keeping these men who might never reach a fit psychological state for release could be better spent on helping improve societies in some way. With the views of life and death I touched on above, preventative measures are arguably worth more than funding the housing of men who are arguably in a lost state of suffering and in reality will never receive the amount of help they need to heal. They are more practical.

I hope that makes sense, it is rushed too so might be fragmented but basically these are some of the issues that factor into my being able to see things from a practical view without guilt tripping myself over the situation having 2 victims.

~Eclipsed~
Jun 12th, 2009, 03:50 AM
Have you ever been in an argument before?
Because this is an argument. Not sure why that is a taboo, but I believe what I believe and since I believe that, I have trouble understanding the logic behind your points, which is why I'm challenging you to back your opposing views up. I'm not trying to spin things here, I want to see if you can logically support your own opposing view that it is okay for a government to be responsible for the death of its citizens.

Are you alright with cruel or unusual punishment? Should someone who cuts off someone's hand also have their hand cut off? Wouldn't that seem "cruel and unusual"?
I don't see how it changes in terms of actually killing someone.

Oh, and that first paragraph of yours, what I meant (and what I had hoped that I had explained by this point) was that when I referred to the "sting" of your insult, I meant that it didn't "sting" in terms of my reaction to it. I can't speak for the multitude of posters who were giving you goodreps, but if you seem funnier to them now, then congrats! But I was never referring to them.

Capital punishment has been proven to be unsuccessful in deterring future murderers.
(States that have taken away their capital punishment laws have not seen their murder rates go up or down, and are still similar to other states who have capital punishment still, in one example of how that doesn't work).

I never said that you said they get lenient sentences. But when you referred to them "being on your street", that would have to refer to a lenient sentence that allowed them to access my street. This is obvious! You implied that their time that they served would be short enough for me to be around when they got out, and for them to be able-bodied, still-criminal citizens who would move onto my street. Of course I don't want this. But that WOULDN'T HAPPEN because serial killers are not given lenient sentences. There, all those words came from my mouth. That is my point, that they do not typically escape from maximum security prisons, and that they are not let out for many, many years (if at ALL).
So why would I worry about them moving on my street, which up to this point seemed to be the big argument against my view.

I'm coming at this from a friendly perspective, just so you know. I'm not trying to attack anyone here, just looking for debate. None of this was intended to be offensive or insulting. I'd appreciate the same in return from now on (regardless of whoever said what in the past.)

Ok I guess I lied about being done with this...

I'll try to abide by the last paragraph of your statement as well. I will try not to be mean or offensive, but you should do the same in return. You're not exactly acting like the spokesperson for friendly debate with some of your responses. I.E. your response to Wiggly (very condescending).

This debate/argument is going in circles which is why I reconsidered responding, but i'll see if I can make my views clear. But yet again you get lost trying to compare apples and oranges. I am talking about THIS case and this case alone. So please stop comparing it to burglary, hand severances, etc. But to answer your question i'm not ok with cruel punishment/torture etc in most cases. However, this case IS different.

I'm not worried about the death penalty in this case and it's consequences on future murder rate fluctuations. Whether or not capital punishment has been a deterent to future murders is irrelevant. Besides, it's not like your hear everyday about psychomaniacs committing 21+ heinous murders for their own pleasure. These guys should be given the death penalty because simply sitting in jail for X amount of years isn't an adequate sentence, IMO. People like this will never reformed and shouldn't be given the chance to and that was the point I was simply trying to make. They robbed these 21+ individuals of life so in order for justice to be served they shouldn't be given the chance to live theirs.

And I never implied that their time would be short enough to get out and possibly be on your streets. I was just looking from a hypothetical point of view. Anything can happen you know, don't be so naive.

Brett.
Jun 12th, 2009, 09:05 AM
I'm afraid to say, i did actually watched the first four minutes of 3 guys 1 hammer video. It is the most stupid and disgusting thing i've seen.

I am strongly against capital punishment but for these three guys, KILL THEM SERIOUSLY!!

stevos
Jun 12th, 2009, 03:12 PM
I give up.
"Naive".
"Probably drug fuelled, -I’m on the verge of insanity- type diatribe?".
"People like this will never reformed and shouldn't be given the chance to and that was the point I was simply trying to make."

First two things are really unnecessary, and I still feel like I'm being attacked. I don't really like feeling like I have to argue on behalf of my own sanity/intelligence, as WELL as this topic.
So, we will just disagree and go our separate ways on this. I won't "disturb" you guys anymore.

The last thing, I just have to say I wholeheartedly disagree with. Everyone deserves the chance for reform.
These guys may be too far gone, but there's always the chance.


And with regards to the Wiggly post, I believed that Wiggly was using information basically any Canadian knew, but others probably didn't, to further his argument was unfair. Every Canadian (essentially) knows how the Homolka case worked, and why she got such a short sentence. Yes, she deserved more, but sometimes things just work that way in law. In order to get the big fish you have to let the smaller one go free (or something).
But to people reading, they might think "oh a serial killer was just allowed to go free! got him!"
I don't really see how I was impolite even, I just said I wouldn't explain it to him because it is common knowledge.

vadin124
Jun 12th, 2009, 05:32 PM
I give up.
"Naive".
"Probably drug fuelled, -Iím on the verge of insanity- type diatribe?".
"People like this will never reformed and shouldn't be given the chance to and that was the point I was simply trying to make."

First two things are really unnecessary, and I still feel like I'm being attacked. I don't really like feeling like I have to argue on behalf of my own sanity/intelligence, as WELL as this topic.
So, we will just disagree and go our separate ways on this. I won't "disturb" you guys anymore.

The last thing, I just have to say I wholeheartedly disagree with. Everyone deserves the chance for reform.
These guys may be too far gone, but there's always the chance.


And with regards to the Wiggly post, I believed that Wiggly was using information basically any Canadian knew, but others probably didn't, to further his argument was unfair. Every Canadian (essentially) knows how the Homolka case worked, and why she got such a short sentence. Yes, she deserved more, but sometimes things just work that way in law. In order to get the big fish you have to let the smaller one go free (or something).
But to people reading, they might think "oh a serial killer was just allowed to go free! got him!"
I don't really see how I was impolite even, I just said I wouldn't explain it to him because it is common knowledge.

i have appreciated your input in this thread...i agree with the fact they shouldn't be given the death penalty...i just don't agree with all of your other sentiments (would have them alive on your street, shouldn't be treated differently to other murderers)

i think variety is the spice is life, and without differing opinions life would be boring...there would be nothing to debate...

so although everyone else may be insulting you or watever (and if i did earlier on i apologize), i think your input has been of most value :)


P.S. no i am not being sarcastic