View Full Version : Such a Dam Shame

Sep 7th, 2002, 04:15 AM
Mauresmo held two fingers close together to indicate how tight the match was: "It's just this much and next time I'm sure it's going to go my way.''
"It felt great, actually, to play an American and feel the crowd behind you,'' Mauresmo said.


Imagine, a foreign player getting the support of an AMERICAN crowd at the expense of an AMERICAN. Is this a great country or what.


Sep 7th, 2002, 04:18 AM
I hope you are being sarcastic because it is a shame that Venus and Serena get more support from crowds in other countries than they do in their home country.

I wonder sometimes why they even bother playing Fed Cup or if they will bother playing on the Olympic team in 2004?

Cybelle Darkholme
Sep 7th, 2002, 04:19 AM
I agree its shameful not to support americans in american tournaments. I swear this is the only country that does that.

Sep 7th, 2002, 04:22 AM
How can they play Fed cup with the tremendous support they recieve from their own country? :rolleyes:

Sep 7th, 2002, 04:23 AM
It is a damn shame!!!

Venus and Serena keep on keeping your heads up, may you remain strong mentally, physically, spiritually and emotionally and in ways that I may have failed to mentioned.

You may never receive this message but may the winds carry my love and support to you both and your family.


Sep 7th, 2002, 04:23 AM
But the crowds do support Americans in US tournaments, except Venus and Serena....hmmmmmm

Sep 7th, 2002, 04:35 AM
That "underdog" crap is bull sh!t!!! They didn't cheer for Venus and Serena when THEY were the so-called underdogs :mad:

Sep 7th, 2002, 04:37 AM
Originally posted by Deira
That "underdog" crap is bull sh!t!!! They didn't cheer for Venus and Serena when THEY were the so-called underdogs :mad:

That's what I was thinking, please inform me when Venus or Serena were playing against an American in America where they were the underdog and the crowd was mainly on their side?

Shuji Shuriken
Sep 7th, 2002, 04:40 AM
But clearly Mauresmo was the underdog against Jennifer wasn't she? I mean she had beaten Jenn in their two previous meetings but in that Quarters match Mauresmo was still considered the underdog. Where was the hail of support for her there? The crowd was FIRMLY behind Jennifer. What makes Venus and Serena any different? That underdog theory does hold some credence, but for the most part it's all bullshit. Bullshit i tell ya'!!!!

Sep 7th, 2002, 04:40 AM

I WAS being sarcastic when I referred to this being a "great" country. As far as the old tired argument about the crowd supporting Mauresmo cause she is the so called underdog, that line is as phony as a 3-dollar bill. PLEASE!


Sep 7th, 2002, 04:41 AM
don't CONVENIENTLY FORGET how the crowd was going WILD CHEERING FOR VENUS in 1997 against Spirlea and cheered for her also very much in 1999 in her semis against Martina and in 2000. Only more recently have crowds been more lukewarm. So what's the real reason that Americans support Chanda, Alex, James Blake but not Venus and Serena? And don't give me that bull about them black and successful cuz James has won a title and so did Chanda by beating Lindsay and the crowd was very polite to her.

Sep 7th, 2002, 04:45 AM
The crowd was not cheering WILDLY for Venus. In fact, prior to the "bumping" incident, they sat there almost in shock over seeing this young African-American girl playing tennis. They didn't know what to do or who to cheer for. After the "bump" they gave Vee some props, but WILDLY ... no, didn't happen.

Sep 7th, 2002, 04:45 AM
Originally posted by treufreund
don't CONVENIENTLY FORGET how the crowd was going WILD CHEERING FOR VENUS in 1997 against Spirlea and cheered for her also very much in 1999 in her semis against Martina and in 2000. Only more recently have crowds been more lukewarm. So what's the real reason that Americans support Chanda, Alex, James Blake but not Venus and Serena? And don't give me that bull about them black and successful cuz James has won a title and so did Chanda by beating Lindsay and the crowd was very polite to her.

What had Venus won in 1997? What grand slams has Chanda or James Blake won? Chanda was an underdog against Lindsay in those finals and that is what she got a polite applause not the majority of crowd support for being the underdog?

Your examples are moot. Only reason the crowd was on James Blake side is because Lleyton is soo hated for his behavior that is well documented. Let JB play Aggassi and see if your " underdog" theory holds up.

Dawn Marie
Sep 7th, 2002, 04:45 AM
Get that son of a bitchin' underdoggin' shit right out of my face!!LMAO PMSing, here folks... but seriously!!

When Venus and Serena were NOT the underdogs the crowd CLEARLY didn't cheer them on. Keep stating that bullshit but I won't bite it. INDIAN WELLS, yes INDIAN WELLS! booed Serena for doing nothing, but showing up on the court. You see, Richard gave the kids alot of backbone. They are use to the bias crowds. Hell they use the crowds. lmao ironic huh?:)

But it is not surprising because tennis is a lily white sport, especially the folks who are down below in the good seats. Such is life, in America. Damn shame, the American masses .. shameful.:(

Anyway, I am so glad that V@S kicked everyone's ass in this RIGGED draw havin' slam.:):):):):D

Sep 7th, 2002, 04:46 AM
For starters, to call James Blake and Alexandra Stevenson black is insulting to those of us (like myself) that have a black father AND a black mother. James and Alexandra have white mothers and have a lighter complexion than the sisters and therefore are less threatening to white people. Chanda is liked by white people because they know that at 26, she is not a threat to win a Grand Slam. The fact that her father was a judge and probably lived better than a lot of white people in this country is also a factor.

Sep 7th, 2002, 04:48 AM

When James and Chanda start winning on a regular basis, we'll see if the warmth shown to them now, continues.

Sep 7th, 2002, 04:54 AM
... and who is scared of Chanda, Alex, or James, right now. Oh but when they become a force to be reckoned with (and they will), trust me they too will receive lukewarm applause. As for Chanda receiving such accolades in her match with Venus ... think Ali/Frazier.

Sep 7th, 2002, 04:58 AM
Lizchris, speak for yourself. I have a black mother and father, and welcome James, Alex and Tiger too ... Tiger will come around one day when he needs us, and one day he will. Most black African-Americans are of mixed blood. Color is just one part of it.

Dawn Marie
Sep 7th, 2002, 04:59 AM
Chanda and Blake are not threats. Get that through your heads. NO THREATS. Thay are not beating up on the white players, that America loves. Rubin won a tourney, and Blake ONE title. Get real here.:) That is nothing to cry your two percent white milk about.

Now if Chanda were to spank Lindsay and Jennifer on a routine basis, the crowd will clearly shift. Hell the very same week Chanda won her tourney and played doubles with Anna K, a NEGATIVE article appeared. Trying to denounce Chanda's accomplishments. Wonder why it suddenly appeared THAT week?

Anyway, as for Blake he is a lighskinned MAN, two things that a white masses crowd can get along with. (they are a bit okay with highyellow) Venus and Serena , are a bit darker toned, and are WOMEN. a double whammy, and they are stomping the wta tour. A TRIPLE WHAMMY.

Anyway, I realize not every white, black, red, purple human is a racist, or even a bit biased, BUT I do know that it hasn't been that long ago, that tennis denounced people of color. It has not changed all THAT much. ESPECIALLY the folks that are sitting in the stands!!Many of these folks are not GEN X people. They are your grandpa's, grandma's, uncle's and aunts. Some young, many young. BUT MANY STILL STUCK ON STUPID.:) Still stuck in the early 1950's.

note: tennis media and the crowds, Like to use that bullshit excuse that they fix their matches, or that Richard is a mean person to JUSTIFY they own stupid hatred. It gives the idiots some sort of comfort, because they won't admit the truth to themselves.

I love yah all.:)

Sep 7th, 2002, 05:03 AM
Deira, I accept all but Tiger beucase he, IMO, is ashamed that he is black, but let's keep it real because I am keeping it real.

Dawn Marie
Sep 7th, 2002, 05:13 AM
I like Tiger cause he does not to bow down to the govermment/society and what they want him to be. HE IS NOT BLACK NOR IS HE WHITE or all ASIAN.:) He made his name up. If he didn't like being black then he would say he was white/asian. I am mixed, and I don't think I am black, or white? I don't care what the world preceives me to be, I know what I preceive ME to be. Why should Tiger Woods have to claim himself as black because society can't deal/cope with a person who may have alot of white in them, but so happen to be brown skin? They can't fathom white being a bit brown. It's either all white or your are black. Screw that theory. Screw what they think.:)

Anyway, I like Halle Berry, but she ain't black. She is bi-racial or mixed. So I will be happy when Anglea Basset or someone of an all Black heritage wins the Oscar. Don't get me wrong I was happy for Halle cause she deserved it, but people still have a long way to go.

Sep 7th, 2002, 05:14 AM
Lizchris, I know where you're comming from. Tiger is not the first to run from his Africaness and he won't be last. But it seems like in the end many have to run back to that same Africaness and wish to be embraced. Think OJ, Michael Jackson and Prince as recent examples. I love me some Michael Jackson, but he is a particularly pittiful case. But we as a black family can't turn our backs just because Tiger doesn't want to know who he is yet. One day he will be forced to. You heard it here first ;)

Sep 7th, 2002, 05:17 AM
Hey, my buddy Dulatown says it best :P

Where Is The Patriotism?
So, we are less than a week away from one of this nations; most horrific moments. A moment that despite its tragic ending, led to one of our most embracing moments. A time when "ALL" of America could come together. In my opinion, its only fitting to see two Americans vying for US Open Champion so close to that Anniversary. But I may be in the minority.

In New York, where fans cheered on the immature antics of Andy Roddick and where Jennifer Capriati did her little cigarette smoking strip tease, Venus and Serena are not the favorites. People were desperately hoping to break up the inevitable Williams Final. The players even felt the pressure. Capriati fully admitted that she choked and her mother Denise tipped the reason with her offhanded comment about "getting a Williams Final"

The crowds have even been ironically rooting for players of foreign birth. "It felt great, actually, to play an American and feel the crowd behind you," Mauresmo

So there you have it. The French born Mauresmo was actually the crowd favorite. What does two girls raised in the ghetto have to do for America to embrace them? They don't strip off their clothes in bars, they don't curse out umpires or jump into the stands desperate for fan worship between points, the
don't declare out loud that the courts belong to them. They go out, win matches, congratulate their opponents and cash millions of dollars of winning checks! And they are family! America at its finest? You would think after some of the commentary about their outfits or hair that they where the Taliban.
Dulatown - Debating Capital of The South

Sep 7th, 2002, 05:22 AM
Preach Infiniti, preach :)

Sep 7th, 2002, 05:24 AM
Deira, Dawn Marie I understand what you are saying.

Let me make myself clear. I am not saying that someone should ONLY embrace their blackness if they are mixed, but just appreciate the fact that you are part black.

Don't get me started on Halle Berry winning the Oscar because I have problems with her and the role she won the Oscar for.

Dawn Marie
Sep 7th, 2002, 05:25 AM
Alot of terror has occured in America, and to be quite Frank, 9-11 is not the only day, that I think about, when it comes to terror. America is imho the best country to live in, but I don't feel 100% patriotic about our country either. What about how the Native Americans were terroized and lost their stolen lands? Why no huge memorial about that?

OMG, LMAO at me, I am all fired up tonight. lol:)

Dawn Marie
Sep 7th, 2002, 05:33 AM
lizchris agree, celebrate just who you are. I sure do.

Cybelle Darkholme
Sep 7th, 2002, 05:37 AM
Face it guys, to be loved by American Tennis fans and cheered, Venus and Serena would have to play for France or Belgium or better yet Austrailia. Yes, they would have to move and give up citizenship and play for another country.

On a side note this race issue is interesting. Okay, someone said halle berry is not black, she's bi racial, but Halle says shes black. I have always noticed that bi racial people almost always without fail claim to be black. Now I want to know if there are any bi racial people who claim to be white?

Could someone like james blake or halle claim to be white?

Sep 7th, 2002, 05:38 AM
Only if they can "pass" Cybelle

Sep 7th, 2002, 05:40 AM
No! Even Halle admitted that she was not given/offered roles because she was too black!!!!! James and Halle can not "pass for white".

Cybelle Darkholme
Sep 7th, 2002, 05:42 AM
Oooo don't you guys get started on Halle or I wil have to go off the deep end. halle deserved that oscar in so far as her peers thought she had the better performance.

The oscars are all about what your peers think: other actors. How can anyone judge something like an acting performance on a objective basis? You cannot do it. The craft of acting is too subjective when you put two great performances next to each other.

Also there was no problem with halle's role and if you think there was then you may as well condemn all of hollywood for the protrayal of all women, because I can list other performances similar to hers. I mean didn't jodie foster win an oscar for being raped and humilated on screen? The accussed?

The roles of women in movies has a history of being circumspect and that will only change when women start writing directing and producing our own projects. period.

Sep 7th, 2002, 05:51 AM
You are partially right about the Oscars and what roles women had to play to get the award. Elizabeth Taylor and Mira Sorvino won Oscars for playing prostitutes and Jodie Foster and Sharon Stone were nominated for playing prostitutes. The big difference is that none of these actresses had to do what Halle did to get her Oscar (in fact, if Jodie Foster took her clothes off in Taxi Driver, I think the moviemakes would have been in big trouble).

Sep 7th, 2002, 05:53 AM
Angela Basset has a problem with the role. She did not like the way African American women were portrayed. That is why she turned down the role. But, we won't go there! I am glad Halle won. There was also controversy about Denzel winning for playing a big, bad rogue cop.

Sep 7th, 2002, 06:40 AM
There are too many topics going on in this thread.lol!!!!

Dawn you say you like Tiger because he doesn't let people tell him what to be, but what is he?

I have a problem with Tiger not because he doesn't say he's black, but because he acts like he is all races. I'm sorry but noone can be everything. Instead of him, making silly racial jokes in GQ, or telling the media he is Coblasian maybe he should just be proud of who he is. IMO, he hates the black side of himself. It's the same with Micheal Jackson, Tina Turner, and alot of other black stars.

Sep 7th, 2002, 06:40 AM
I think Dawn is right about the crowd at tennis tournaments being older and wealthier and more conservative and so there is a racism that creeps into the anti-Williams feeling.

I also have to point out though that New York crowds are not Indian Wells crowds, we are a pretty diverse bunch. I was at the women's final in 1999, and the crowd was wildly pro-Serena, and I was at the semifinal at Madison Square Garden in 1999 and the crowd was wildly pro-Venus.

So it's not true that the crowd is always against them.

Sep 7th, 2002, 06:44 AM
The crowd loved them during the Finals last year..Gave them a long lasting ovation when they entered the stadium. The crowd really appreciates their acomplishments.

Crazy Canuck
Sep 7th, 2002, 06:47 AM
I find it appalling that they don't get support in their own country - I said in another thread, if they were Canadian I'd be supporting their every match.

Reading through this thread however, I've learned a whole lot about being "white skinned". I had no idea that I thought half the things that I apparently do.

Its alright to stereotype white people I suppose?

Perhaps you should be talking about white Americans?

Sep 7th, 2002, 06:48 AM
Actually Halle wanted to do the nude scene in Monster's Ball. They asked her did she wan't to leave it out, but she said she wanted to do it because she wanted to capture her character fully.

Angela Bassette was wrong for saying that to the media, IMO. It seems like they always want to divide and conquer. Also, Angela has to realize that every black actress is not her. I know Angela wouldn't do anything like that, but Halle is more open.

Many in the black community have tried to come down on Halle for doing it with a old white dude in the movie. But geesh, it's only a movie. In real life she doesn't go with white dudes, but maybe with Eric slutting around on her she will go to the other side like Tina Turner.:rolleyes:

Sep 7th, 2002, 06:54 AM
In America it seems that racial tensions are so different than in other countries. Maybe that's why you don't fully understand what alot of this is all about. And you feel like you are being attacked just because you have "white skin". That's not the case.

Crazy Canuck
Sep 7th, 2002, 08:15 AM
harloo I dont think that I'm being attacked.

I don't feel personally insulted by any of this.

I just don't see how fighting ignorance with ignorance is going to help anything.

Sep 7th, 2002, 10:03 AM
Cheering for someone just because of the country they represent is something I could never undstand.

How could anyone cheer for Venus? With all the success she's had in Grand Slams, it's like hoping a millionaire will win lotto.

I remember at the Australian Open when Venus was murdering Cargill and there was still someone yelling support for her.

Sep 7th, 2002, 12:03 PM
It has to be duly noted that Jennifer Capriati has a special relationship with the fans cos of the well documented trials and tribulations of her youth. She has been an amazing comeback story - amazing cos no one thought she would ever play up to scratch again but she proved so many people wrong. Many of these people are fans who rally behind her today. She may not be their favourite player but they feel a sense of responsibility to her so to speak cos of the dark period she went through in her adolescence.

It's funny bcause everything you just said could apply to Venus and Serena. They had "trials and tibulations" in their youth, they did not come from an affluent background, played on bullet-ridden courts in one of the nations toughest urban areas, were pulled out of juniors to protect them from prevalent racist attitudes,and were not expected to win grand slams and reach number 1. Jennifer was a priviledged teen who did drugs, partied and finally decided to get serious about tennis as an adult-- is this what the America is embracing? Which story is more amazing?

Let the American crowds continue to disrespect these champions. If success is the best revenge then Venus and Serena are getting revenge threefold.

Sep 7th, 2002, 12:19 PM
Let the American crowds continue to disrespect these champions. If success is the best revenge then Venus and Serena are getting revenge threefold.


I couldn't have said it better.

Sep 7th, 2002, 01:47 PM
The Tiger Woods and James Blake analogies don't work because they're guys. There'a an element of sexism in all this that often goes unremarked. Crowds liked Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan too.

The only real parallel is Chanda. The best available case would be, who'd the crowd root for during the semi at Los Angeles, Jelena or Chanda?

Chanda would definitely not be favored. She's the American. She had recently returned from injury. So this should have been a wildly pro-Chanda crowd, if race was no issue.

Sep 7th, 2002, 02:20 PM
but maybe with Eric slutting around on her she will go to the other side like Tina Turner. :rolleyes:
Hey, hey, hey... whay you say???? Eric Benet is cheating on Halle Berry???

Sep 7th, 2002, 02:22 PM
Perhaps Tiger doesn't see his racial make-up as important as the person he has become in the world. He undoubtedly recognises the impossiblity of pleasing all the fanatics out there who argue someone is "too white" to be black or vice versa. Maybe he chooses to "just be".

As for Venus and Serena, it's a fact that when the general public see a champion as indominitable, they will appreciate the tennis they see from them, but will cheer for the purported underdog - Navratilova particularly had a problem with this while she was at the height of her powers (unless someone wants to introduce the topic of homophobia). But Graf and Seles were both given muted responses from the US Open public when they were carving up the draws. It's just a fact that humanity takes to their hearts those who more easily reveal a chink in their armour. I think to introduce the topic of race as a given for the muted response to the Williams is presumptuous at best.

Sep 7th, 2002, 03:31 PM
I wish people would please stop with the "underdog" theory. Anyone who plays Capriati--except Venus and Serena-- is an underdog, yet Jen gets overhelming crowd support whenever she plays irregardless of her behaviour on and off the court. Same with Lindsay and any other American with the notable exception of the numbers 1 and 2 players in the world. The "underdog" theory holds no water since it is obvious that other top American players get crowd support regardless or whether they are favored or not. This is what annoys the heck out of Williams fans. Even if you don't believe their race is the reason for the lack of support, at least acknowledge that there is a disparity when the only time American crowd support the underdog over an American player is when Venus or Serena is that American player.

My logical sense tells me that you can pretty much rule out all other possiblities but race to explain the American crowd phenomenon.

Do V&S get no support because of perceived bad behaviour? No one on the WTA comes close to Jen Cap in this category yet she gets overwhleming support.

Do V&S get no support because they are not underdogs? See my post above.

Do V&S get no support because of disenchantment with their hardhitting power game? Jen, Lindsey and Seles all play the same power game yet get support.

Do V&S get no support because they have won several grand slams and people want someone new to win? Well how do you explain the support for Jen, Lindsay and Monica who have all tasted grand Slam success multiple times?

Do V&S get no support because they are black? Hmmm, this is the hardest because you would have to get into the minds of the fans to know. Americans have supported black players (Chanda Blake) but what makes Venus and Serena different form these two? Venus and Serena win A LOT. Do Americans support white American players who win a lot relatively speaking? YES. Can it be a reasonable conclusion to say that if Americans support white players who win and are dominant over their opponents then "dominance" can be ruled out as the decisive reason why they don't root for V&S?

Race is unfortunately the only card left on the table that can't be ruled out to explain the strong and strangely unified crowd reaction against the #1 and #2 players in the world.

Sep 7th, 2002, 03:38 PM
Well, also with due respect;

It is clear to the US Open crowd (most of whom do not go to other tennis events) that Venus and Serena are a tier above all the other hitters, that isn't in doubt. Plus the fact that they are seen as a team means the public believe you have to beat the "same" player twice. But the others have far longer stories at the Open, and it takes time for the transition from bright-new-thing through to established top player through to a loved player who has played the Open for ten years or more i.e Davenport, Seles, Capriati.

I don't doubt that some people are racially motivated in disliking V and S. I also dont doubt that some black people racially dislike some white players. It's impossible to quantify this. But because such a situation has happened previously with Navratilova et al, I don't think such a theory should have been assumed, which I believe is what this thread did.

Sep 7th, 2002, 03:39 PM
If they rooted for the underdog, but still was polite enuf to applaud the great play of venus and serena, this would be a different conversation. yesterday, they rooted for amelie and against Venus. Sometimes Vee would hit a great winner and barely get an applause. She was booed several time thru out the match. People were making noises and yelling out stuff while she was trying to serve. Please explain that.

Serena hit some amazing angled shots yesterday and nothing. I dont even care about the other bs, I wished the fans would just appreciate good tennis and clap when its a great point, like they do at Wimby (most of the time).

Its so unfair that they have to deal with this negative BS, just for being good. Its really sad.

Sep 7th, 2002, 03:45 PM
But personally, when I supported Graf, I took it as in incredible compliment that the second a player looked as if she was challenging her, the crowd started to voice support for the "under-dog". It's a lonely place at the very top, but a champion learns to feed off the fear of those below her, and deal with the fear she creates. I honestly don't think it bothers Venus or Serena one bit. They always handle themselves superbly, and the only arrogance I see from them is the belief in their eyes. And remember, madison avenue would never provide them with the largest endorsements in female history if they sniffed out any racism AT LARGE, because the only line they think about is the bottom one - money.

Sep 7th, 2002, 03:52 PM
it is race. period.

Sep 7th, 2002, 04:32 PM
When did Martina become a citizen of the US, was it during the height of her success? Also, the same question for Monica. Graf is not american so her analogy doesn't apply.

No one Germany have yet to say that when graf was winning everything the german crowds always rooted for the underdog.

I haven't heard Australians say that the crowd actively roots for the underdog when Lleyton Hewit is playing.

How about people in Belgium, does the underdog get rooted for over Justine or Kim?

We already know the crowd supports Lindsay and Jennifer in the us.

People can keep coming up with all the rationalizations they want but it is evident what is going on. Part of it I think comes from the media who from the beginning never embraced Venus and Serena and did not respond positively to the great play they both shown over the year. Instead of hyping the fact that two sisters were kicking everyones butt they spent all their energy to try show how bad that is for the game. The crowds, who are clearly idiots, have adopted that negative stance. We all know where this all stems from even if some of you don't want to admit it.

It just goes to show you how correct Richard and Oracene were for raising the girls the way they did. They let them know what they would face and prepared them for it. That's why no matter how negative a crowd is they are still kicking butt with a great big grin and a twirl to boot.

Sep 15th, 2002, 10:32 AM
What's wrong with the underdog theory? It's valid. Down with all the top players!

Sep 15th, 2002, 11:01 AM
The people don't cheer much for the sisters because they are seen as having the advantage because they are so much stronger and bigger than the other girls.

Sep 15th, 2002, 01:05 PM
Exactly. The more Goliath/killing machine/strong/invincible they seem, the more people will cheer against them.

Sep 15th, 2002, 04:01 PM
The people don't cheer much for the sisters because they are seen as having the advantage because they are so much stronger and bigger than the other girls.

So Venus was way bigger and stronger than Mauresmo? Serena was way bigger and stronger than Lindsey? Are Serena and Venus much bigger and stronger than Jen Cap? Venus looks like she weighs a buck-o-five compared to some of other top women. Serena has more defined muscles but is not bigger than Lindsey, Jen, or Amelie. The only significant advantage Venus and Serena have over their competitors is mental.